MASSIVE Warmachine news - Steamforged Games to the Rescue!
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2024
- Chris gives his initial thoughts on the Warmachine acquisition from Steamforged Games.
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I swear if they up their P3 paint marketing it would drive their business. It's amazing paint and the pots are the best. Hell, sell the empty pots.
Anything less than a dropper bottle? In this economy? Pass
While I prefer dropper bottles, the P3 paint itself is one of my favorites.
I still have a pot of Thamar Black. No, I won't sell it to you.
@@soapboxk2203 Im not a big fan of droppers. The tips always clog and more than once I've had a full blowout squeezing a dropper over my wet pallett. The P3 pots are the best pots, not like the GW ones.
Warmachine was literally at the height of its power in MK2 which was a highly competitive game.
shoulda kept it that way, with updates instead of the wierd mess of mk3 and 4
Honestly the thing I'm most interested in is if/how they manage P3. Back in the day they were some of my favorite paints with a lot of unique colors. It would be great if they updated the formulation to be on par with current gen paints like AK 3rd gen and the new Vallejo.
They were pretty great paints, especially for the time. Made by the same guy who designed the original citadel line.
I am cautiously optimistic, and happy I didn't sell any of my armies for dirt cheap, lol
What I had been seeing from PP was a resurgence of the Iron Kingdoms IP. The IK: Requiem Kickstarter went over very well and led to two additional successful Kickstarters. Then Warmachine Mark IV was released and seemed to be drawing people in.
As for this latest change, I am feeling cautiously optimistic. I think Mark IV's success is what made Steamforged Games interested in buying the IP. Iron Kingdoms and Warmachine needs better marketing and I foresee SFG doing a big marketing campaign to drum up interest and then some well timed releases.
Oh man, the Formula P3 was my favorite paint line for a very long time. I only stopped using them because availability became a problem. If they bring it back I might have to make a huge bulk order.
PP was in the process of doing what you were talking about this past year with MK4: shedding old sku and building new sku. From when Steamforge has said so far their plan is to continue along those lines but repackage / rework the release scheme. I think it’s a winning idea.
I don't think PP had any equity left with its consumers or with retailers to actually pull it off. SFG will have a honeymoon period to make changes and people will pay more attention
Your multi pillar approach is why GW is so successful, SFG needs to emulate it. I've heard it said you come to warhammer by the minis, stay for the lore, and suffer through the gameplay. Strong player investment has kept them going for a very long despite producing a mediocre game. With the recent missteps GW has made, maybe SFG can offer a compelling alternative; not just in a sold set of rules, but a strong hobby experience.
Absolutely agree, the rules for Warhammer have always irked me, the best gameplay I've had rules wise ironically was Fantasy and the models and unit trays were a hassle...and then GW nuked it from orbit and replaced it with terrible rules, followed by AoS which was based off those Terrible rules.
Warmachine was some of the best rules, especially for a RPG I've used, I could easily take the tabletop and adjust it for the RPG and vice versa.
But by the time I could play Warmachine with my own army build my region decided to stop playing it. and that was before Mk4.
So in particular while I don't think Mk4 getting nuked would be the best choice., a full new army set with more armies would be better and an absolute nuking of Requiem and a remake of the Fullmetal fantasy RPG books but made in a way that directly supports players making their own RPG characters and then transferring those characters into the tabletop (because screw the competitive scene, if I could play my RP character in a tabletop army among my friends there's certain to be a easy way to rope people into buying armies right there)
5) What, if anything, can steamforged learn from Corvus Belli as to how to be a successful miniature company that is in it for the long hall?
As a person who has a menoth army, a trollkin army, bought the bodger game, bought the two dungeon crawls (Undercity & Widower's Wood), purchased the Iron Kingdoms RPG books, tried to start up Warcaster this last year, and still faithfully use P3 paints, I just generally hope 1. I can play my painted models 2. they develop a fun game 3. I get to bring out Amon Ad Raza. lol high hopes, and it's one of the richest world builds.
I'm in the same boat ⛵ , I'm just a big fan of the universe itself. I really don't care which company makes it.
I played MK4 and got all the Orgoth stuff. Warmachine never played better
Those are my factions too. I feel gutted. I don't dislike pirates but they aren't my jam. And PoM is just gone. Like the hell man?
@@DanielNelson Not really gone but quite crumbling. Still playable in MK4
@@sakoma85 no front arcs, teleporting infantry and blasts that become larger if you target larger bases?
No thanks.
I've already thrown my hat in with Steamforged on this channel, so I am all for this. To echo Chris in the video, SFG is top for quality boxed and pre-built miniature products out there. Especially with Epic Encounters, they are making great strides in bridging the gap between beginners/casual gamers and the miniatures hobby. Early days, and I'm sure you guys will have plenty to offer on this going forward, but a couple of takes I'd be curious about:
- Considering other Steamforged products (ie: Godtear), what format would you like to see for the Warmachine releases that would best serve the FLGS market?
- Assuming there is a Kickststarter campaign for launch of a new edition/rebrand, what would you like it to look like? Would you prefer no Kickstarter or is there value to it in terms of marketing/ hype and building a foundation for the game out of the gate?
- Compared to the other companies in the tier below (well-below, I know) GW, what are SFGs chances to rise and potentially meet the titan? What strategies could allow them to carve a deep swathe of the market? (Total fun conjecture here, haha)
Thanks again for the great content!
How I see it for the immediate future is SFG takes over marketing and sales/distribution while PP just keeps making lore, sculpts, models, and rules. Reception of MKIV among fans has been really good so I see getting proper marketing could really turn it into something. I just hope they push prospective buyers to FLGS over just advertising their webstore. Like make sure all store orders are filled before ever thinking about adding more stock to their store. Nothing is going to bring FLGS back around to the product like people coming in constantly asking for it. And then when stores actually carry it they can spend less effort marketing because the stores can do that for them.
That’s the thing, MK4 saved the game locally from what I see. The hobby stores hate it which is probably for good reason but these days the internet has everything.
It can't continue the way it is. They tried to shift everything to their app, which was a big mistake because without the army books you miss out on the flavor and lore/stories, and without the cards people who don't want to use an app can't play. Also removing cards and books got rid of two revenue streams that retailers needed to carry the game. Right now I don't know anyone who can tell me the current lore/characters, but I know a bunchof people who can talk about their GW faction for days.
@@ronkent6714 the issue is so much of the main lore is locked not only behind the app, but the 5e RPG stuff as well.
@@ronkent6714 the cards burned retailers. updates came out and the card packs where then useless and were dead stock. Lore is in the app. Can pay $5 and read about every current army and their back stories of the factions they belong to in like a week. I understand reading on a phone/tablet/computer may not be everyone's ideal form of reading but it is there.
People probably cant tell you the CURRENT lore because they are choosing to not engage with it. I emphasis current because between the books and the current app, lore delivery was a hot mess.
When i saw Caine, i was sold
They need to create demand, sustained, and sustainable demand for the line. If after a couple of years of this The Iron Kingdom seems stable we may stock it again, maybe.
Step one: have customers ask about the product
We'll see after that lol
Funny. We have product in our stores and a thriving Warmachine community.
Where abouts?
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Memphis, Tullahoma and Chattanooga Tennessee. Huntsville Alabama. Marietta Georgia. We run monthly events at the minimum. Plenty of players show up from Mobile, Louisville and Knoxville. As a matter of fact, We just sold out on the Siege Invitational in Memphis, and that is AFTER expanding the venue.
I really loved the Iron Kingdoms lore/setting. Also loved Mk2, except for colossals. But I’m just super leery of anything Warmahordes at this point.
I think most people are in the camp of wait and see for sure
Once colossals showed up I departed. At that point we entered the GW upward spiral of madness.
Yeah they wanted money. Colossals were cool and all but they needed some sort of limitation to make them viable. Specifical scenarios or whatever. But they wanted to sell a bunch so they didn't want to bottle neck cash
As a MK1 / MK2 player, I truly miss Warmachine. I'm even published in NQ for a major tournament win. I'm still holding on to two armies for no reason what so ever.
I have 3 full fa armies in my display case...
Skorne/retribution and coc.
Those there great days, amazing community wonderful competitive scene after you got past the try hard mid tier.
@@snarkymcsnarkface1863 I still have my badge from the first convention they held. I really do miss it, was an amazing community and scene back in the day. Seems I'm going to be forced to switch games now that I'm looking to play miniatures again...
Infinity, here I come.
I refuse to go to Warhammer lol
Infinity is a great game, but I will tell you this... read the rules, especially around movement, line of sight and intent, carefully... people are very liberal in their interpretation of what us actually written and play it wrong. Game devs have also said people be playing it wrong... and of course people did not listen. Infact a few galaxy brained people told the developer that they were wrong and the interpretation was correct.
I think it needs to go back to smaller scale, skirmish game, rather than the big infantry machine push, I loved playing 2nd ed and early 3rd.
Less minis requirement would make it more approachable
I agree, more skirmish like would do the game good.
Back to the roots.
Not these more streamlined GW'ish kind of rules.
Heartily agreed. I love the theme, but what really pulled me in is smaller model count combat. I don't want to run squads of infantry, I have Warhammer for that.
I'm pretty sure that they got it for a pity price and I think you're right. They have to nuke everything that has come before and relaunch the game completely with a wider target audience.
It will be interesting to see what SFG have to say. I think they are doing something on Thursday giving more information about their plans.
I'm excited for the WMH fans and I hope the games come back. They would have to really up their art design though if they wanted to keep up with the times, though. Privateer Press figures, especially human-shaped ones, were never very nice and have not aged well.
Here is the thing. It all depends on vision and investment. They could relaunch Warmachine and/or Hordes with all new model ranges. Add in the hobby pillar with P3, and supplimental games by moving Guildball to the Iron Kingdoms fully as the bloodbowl of it. All the pieces are there but as said in the video, they need to nuke it from orbit and restart with a clear 3yr quarterly roadmap for shops and players id they want it tonget back to close to its golden age. They will also have to avoid the pitfalls of the past with game and product design.
A herculean task indeed
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 not undoable but it requires commitment. I think with the right investment of money and energy WMH could get back into that top tier
I have tons of WM/Hordes and would love to see it resurrected. However, after SFG's handling of Guild Ball recently I have little faith.
With the plastic they do, making it a larger scale might yield some great models. Like a Warjack feeling like a centrepiece would be great for hobby.
Interesting, never considered a scale change!
keep it about big robots and big beasts, If I wanted 198345532 models i'd play warhammer
@@Adamantos-Elean Agreed, once it shifted heavily into infantry, I lost interest. It plays best as a skirmish sort of level with those warjacks and beasts.
4) What are your thoughts on Brawlmachine? I think it is AMAZING. It works at both a casual and competitive level as a game as they banned some of the more bonkers casters and limited the ability to spam.
Should Streamforged learn from that?
It amuses me that Steamforged didn't/couldn't buy Monsterpocalypse because that's currently tethered to Mythic's albatross.
Knowing Steamforged they'll probably launch a KS for Warmachine Mk5 and ship 3D prints, which honestly isn't that much worse than where the game is now? It's already direct to consumer after PP burned their distribution network, so maybe a big reboot every 3-4 years with a massive vaporware release of new models is the best they can hope for. I feel real bad for anybody who stuck with the game through Mk4.
I am glad nothing they had done made me jump in...
I hated the retribution revamp... hot topic elves that raided a cryx armory and sparkle in sunlight... hard pass.
Trollbloods that are now fish people... hard pass...
Okay skorne am I playing mk4 or am I still a mk2 refugee. Company bought out...
Saved me money... thanks steamforged.
Yepp, pretty much
Warmachine is currently the hottest it's been in years. Players who left in Mk2 have returned, they are drawing in tons of new players. They're selling out events all over the world.
Blowing it up and starting over is stupid.
@snarkymcsnarkface1863 The new Trollbloods are not fish people. They're a whole different group of trolls.
The original trolls were from the north of Kreil, the new group are from the south of Kreil. A completely different ethnicity of trollscoming from a different climate.
I play both groups of trolls. They're both still a ton of fun.
@@rayslover8526 so hot that they had to sell it off.
I doubt that throwing everything away "again" would be a good idea.
MkIV is a new version. Catering for those of us that have old models just means that we won't buy anything...It'll revitalise the second hand market, but that won't help SFG.
Would love to see the Iron Kingdoms gain some traction again. Would hope for some 3D Printing options too, as I've gotten used to the convenience, flexibility and affordable pricing that comes with for minis but not holding my breath.
I’m a hobbyist who loves narrative play with my own dudes on 3D tables. Give me that and I’ll buy in.
One of my buddies is in the MIV playtest and I told him the same thing.
Then Warma/Hordes is not what you are looking for, that is never what the brand/game has been, in fact this is the exact opposite what the brand/game has tried to reach for.
Heavy leaning on competitive play (to the negligence of all else) and 2D terrain is what Warma/Hordes is and if they want to change that core conception, they have an even bigger mountain of work ahead of themselves.
@@DarkZergkill Then they need to change that. the 2d terrain, and competitive only crap got them into this mess since it chased almost all the new players away. which they need to keep this going. casual players are what keep games alive not the tournament chasers.
@@flameknightdragon On a personal level, I am with you. I find 2d tables ghastly to look at and dread that even GW is more and more moving in that direction.
How-ever, ignoring this part of Warma/Hordes history would be a mistake as well in my opinion and a radical push away from all that also means losing all your old players.
I agree that *big* games need more of a balance between hobby/casual oriented players and competitive players, it's two aspects that both help the game and the community grow. But Warma/Hordes needs some drastic changes otherwise this will be short lived resurrection, I don't envy SFGs position to figure this all out.
They've been adding 3d Terrain all through Mk4.
As a lgs owner. I totally agree it needs to be completely rebooted 100% with new models and game. I won’t stock it otherwise
Good to hear your perspective!
I'm excited to see where this goes :)
"Page 5" is all you need to read when it comes to PP design. The context in which even Mk2 in it's heyday played was a ultra-granular competitive rules focus. Combine that with PP eternally releasing the new chase units (anyone remember Croak Raiders?) with what you've already said: PP never retiring models. Now suddenly you have an ever-increasing sum of knowledge you have to hold in your head because oh this new thing that came out now interacts with this corner-case model from 3 years ago that got errata and blah blah blah suddenly I'm playing Magic the Gathering and not a miniature game, right?
While we're at it, throw in some utterly game-breaking feats involving hilarious near auto-win states like pDenny and a handful of others (that themselves took forever to errata to vague balance) and you've got a meta that's competing with the worst GW ever put on offer for how utterly cancerous it was. Everyone's pushed into a Steamroller tournament and frothing at the mouth with a Win-At-All-Costs mentality from day one. Why even bother with getting into the faction YOU enjoy and enjoying the models YOU want to enjoy while your local volunteer PP cheerleader Pressganger are themselves just throwing more and more people into the arms race meat grinder to accrue more (literal) brownie points for free models or discounts?
Then suddenly everyone's getting out their LITERAL LASERS to measure whether or not models are in collision, or if charges are making it or not, and GOD I want to forget measuring your caster's influence area because you were barred from pre-measuring distances but hey I can just measure my caster's area and THEN USE THIS INFORMATION TO JUDGE RANGES!
Yeah, Steamforged would need to flush the dudes who got obsessed with that kind of meta out of the thing, because it was everywhere and it ruined the experience. I bailed at the end of Mk2 so what do I know, I heard they actually allowed you to measure f*cking distances in Mk3 or something. Not that I care - sold my stuff a long time ago. Warma isn't a bad game, but PP can burn with the meta they built around it.
Strong words but I think completely warranted. Similar to many peoples experiences that I have spoken to.
The Ultra-Competitive scene is what killed the game in the first place, and page 5 won't fly in this new PC world we live in.
@@ronkent6714 Thing is, "page 5" really nailed down what the game was about; aggressive skirmishing. Maybe they change the presentation to placate the PC police, but the game really does work best when playing to that almost chess-like aggression and piece-killing vs. Warhammer's "roll a bowl of dice, lose 1 model" sort of slow grind.
P3 paint.
Outstanding product.
I would love them to drop the whole MKIV branding and relaunch cleanly as just Warmachine. The game could do with a fresh introduction to all the players who never saw it back in its heyday. Make a point of selling people on the world and the narrative which has always been the strength of Warmachine. Something like organized events built around an introductory story using newly released core battle boxes with just a caster and a couple jacks. Take it back to the roots. I think the biggest problem the game had was it stopped caring about anyone other than the hardcore crunch crowd, and it basically stopped being a hobbyist game at all. It became impenetrable as a competitive game and unrecognizable as a hobby. Although I do wonder how you invite hobbyists back in when all your models come as one piece. I would guess more people enjoy the building of the models than actually painting them, and you’re never going to get that market this way.
I think battletech is showing that you can pull that off.
I do agree that you will miss out on some people though if they are not 'kits'.
my hope is that they expand out how you can play it, just the one play mode is a bit restrictive for the minis, having a Blackstone Fortress or underworlds style game could help make a better entry point
More 'casual gaming' options for sure.
Steamforged owning warmachine... stopping here my thoughts before hearing yours.
Oh this is a mixed bag of excitement for a hopeful resurrection of warmachine and trepidation
guildball. Yah they are finally bringing it back but man that was a sour moment in their history... and I do love godtear but the studio support for it seems to have dried up.
They just have way too many projects and IP's they are doing material for. I cannot see warmachine getting the attention and care it needs at this point.
But...lets hear what the store owner thinks... change my mind?
What do I want to see... from a mk2 refugee stand point.
Leave all the old warmachine content in the dumpster. Don't get me wrong as a owner of 3 full factions and having multiple tournament lists for other factions on my shelf. I dont want to associate steamforged games with my absolute disappointment of PP and Wilson.
I almost want them to take the godtear approach. With warbands idea, in this case toss in a jack/beast or two lessers with troops as the main shelf item. then "seasons" with 2 or 3 warcasters/warlocks and a solo or two.
So what I want to see at launch, two two player starter boxes, season 1 caster box and two season 1 warband boxes for the following. And yes I am asking for the moon. Aka I want a full preview of their future product line up.
3 hordes factions (trollbloods, circle and legion)
3 warmachine (cryx, Khador and menoth)
Most critically NO kickstarter style launch. Or if they need to do a kickstarter only two player started boxes being available. No expansions or caster boxes. Keep it limited give the stores a reason to trust you.
A year into the game I want to see cygnar come riding in. Year 2 I want skorne. Fill in every faction over years 3 and 4 add limited merc and minion options back in. Year 5 i want ret. Keep a limited but respectful store foot print and roll the in-store product line, only leaving the current season on store shelves. Improve the distribution network so am out of season set can be delivered to a store within a week.
i dont know if I want to see grimkin or coc or any other mini army. Bloating up shelf space
Keep in mind i am a former skorne/ret/coc player. Skorne got way to bloated, coc was great fun but it was.not popular and chewed up shelf space. Ret similar story it eventually for bloated and shelf space was eaten up.
Warmachine is dead, embrace it... long live warmahordes or iron kingdoms or however they rebrand it.
While I don't necessarily think they need to nuke MKIV(I think the MKIV ruleset is the best they have created so far), I do agree that they need to make Warmachine larger than just the competitive scene. These days I play *very* little actual tabletop games other than dnd and boardgames, so for me, the minis are more for just painting and enjoying rather than for building a competitive army. The recent Troll Frog models are great looking and actually look fun, but their previous MKIV stuff is just so.. boring. All their older sculpts are way more interesting than their new ones and thats an issue.
The other thing I hope they make significant improvements on is their DnD setting. Their recent 5e books were awful. The unique classes were incredibly unbalanced, there was no reason to play anything other than warcaster, as everything else was just a worse version of the base DnD classes. As someone who loves the steampunk setting, this was incredibly disappointing for our playgroup. Heck, I would much rather have them go back to their older 2d6 version of the game than the one we got.
Thanks for the insight!
Could you point a fellow in the direction of these people trying to liquidate their Warmachine stock? I've been trying to get legacy stuff through channels and ebay with no such luck. I would LOVE to get my hands on some clearance priced Warmachine but locally its been all sold out. Clearly these people don't want to get rid of it that badly because in my searching for various models I've had no luck lol
Where abouts are you?
The Facebook groups geared towards WM/H products have people dumping armies for pennies on the dollar.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 East Coast USA
I've only found one store in my area that had any of them, and they were unceremoniously plopped into a box under the clearance table, not even half off. I'd love to find a treasure trove of 75% off "gotta move these" models.
Its odd as i thought mk4 was picking up steam with amazing new models that are constantly sold out. SFG on the other hand, has flopped with GB re-pickup and its last kickstarters.
I think they need to focus on mid sized battles and possibly have a coop crawler (stuff which GW doesnt target). That way legacy models could be used in the crawler while the battlegame slowly resculpts the older stuff out. I think pressgangers (people that run events, drove weekly plays and pushed the game) will be essential to get the buzz going in regions.
'Sold out' can be deceptive, depending on how much is being produced (or what their production capacity even was towards the end there).
SFG has grown into a bigger company off the backs of moving away from Guild Ball and focusing on large IP board games and supplementary products for D&D 5E
It's certainly an interesting development. Agreed that the only real way forward is to pretty much blow it all up, but how to rebuild is the big question. Do you continue the continuity established with mk4 or go back to earlier in the setting? Also, massively agree on emphasis for the hobby aspect of the game. I'd love to see a solo/coop play introduced to it as a way to engage more than just tourney bros. Somewhere there's a good balance of letting players use their old models, putting out fun and fair rules, honoring the old while embracing the new, and making a game that stores are excited to carry and support. I'm not optimistic that the parties involved are capable of this.
It is a very tall order...one that I am glad I am not responsible for lol
Certainly interesting news, the temperature in my locality seems luke warm, some think it might be better in steamforged hands, others are afraid (which i dont blame)
What I am REALLLLLY curious about is Asmodee and the star wars line, with asmodees debt being called in (and they have no way to pay it) it will be interested to see what happens. If they manage to refinance or... guess all the star wars bits are up for grabs by various companies haha
At first I was like Really? But then I was like Oh Really, cause its hell trying to launch a new IP; Steamforge and Warmachine is a good fit. Steamforge would be wise to keep the old minis relevant but rewrite those rules in the spirit of OPR - core simplicity and modular complexity.
Yeah, it's a perfect fit. The two companies that got the golden ticket and then threw it all away, together at last.
My user interface is missing the thumbs up button for this video for some reason... so... 👍
You rock
Warmachine was dead? I thought it just came back last year lol
Depends on your definition of alive
I loved war machine mk1 and 2. Mk3 had some good stretches.
My thoughts would be a very slow role out of a whole new skirmish game.
I'm just keeping an eye on it and see what happens I was looking into Warmahordes but I didn't have the money for it and by the time I had a job it was dead in my area
What if they did an alternate time line? Rebooted Mk 2. A 2.5
Taking the best of all the editions and going back in time. I can't see myself ever coming back without PoM
Love me some menoth
I doubt a reboot will happen.
I could see the Protectorate of Menoth returning to help push back the Orgoth, and maybe take swipes at Cygnar in the process.
I am hoping they start focusing more on the narrative play, and hobby side of things. The competitive side is not only toxic to the point no new people stayed, but is holding the game back.
100%
Agreed. I actively avoided those who touted that "Play like you got a pair" slogan while telling me to read page 5. Those people still havent changed to this day.
Kinda wished it was still around, so that would stay away from the stuff I do play.
@@Colorcrayons honestly the fact PP just banned conversion work was one of their biggest mistakes. since it got rid of the hobiests, and as someone that got into the setting through their d6 rpg i was floored to find out it was illegal to change out a melee weapon on a warjack, or any mini even though in the lore weapon variants were possible.
I just started collecting a bunch of iron kingdoms 5e stuff. I only have a few miniatures. I'd love to get discounted minis as a DM. Not really interested in the warmachine/hordes war game. But the setting is very cool.
A lot of people get mad when GW discontinues models, or squats factions. PP did that to me. I am sitting on a complete range of Protectorate of Menoth and my son’ Cryx armies that has been shoved to “legacy”. Guess I can play them in OPR? Screw Iron Kingdoms.
The fact they picked to nuke menoth in the lore. they got no big last stand, or hero moment. they were almost all retconned into infernal worshipers. and what was left if near dead city states. or everblight getting almost wiped out off screen, and gets to be fullt wiped out for the sake of the new dragon faction to look cool.
Okay ... Steamforged buying PP is weird to me. PP was a beast not that long ago. Crazy.
They didn't buy PP, just the Iron Kingdoms RPG, warmachine/hordes, and p3 paints.
@@owlfighter4377 ah... Still a pretty sizable chunk of their IPs. I could understand not buying PP and any liability they might hold
If by 'not that long ago' you mean fifteen years, sure.
@@toferkrz946 10 years ago, they were still in the conversation. Even Warcaster seemed to have potential.
If you say so. Maybe in the US it did. Elsewhere it was taking a nosedive already in mk2 days and by the time Colossals were introduced, it was basically in a coma on life support around where I lived. And Warcaster never really made it across the pond.
Maybe it's your phrasing but if the completely burn the old players all at once and only cater to the new players, the level of toxicity from the old guard will keep the game from relaunching. PP already saw that with the start of the Mk4 edition when they tried that very thing. Better to do the GW route and let the older players factions go one at a time or again pull a GW and rescuplt and sunset models.
Steamforged games is not a company I'd trust enough to invest into a game that needs long-term support either. Not an improvement from a customer perspective, imo.
Why do you say that? I think as a company they have learned a lot over the years and grown.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Because of how they handled guild ball and their community. There is a lot of bad will there that I think will hurt them here. Also while they have a few great games they have a large amount of very mediocre games so there’s no guarantee they will do a good job with Warmachine
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Guild Ball was cut down pretty mercilessly. I'd be hesitant to invest into a system of the scope that Warmachine is at these days, because I'd wager building an army takes years, not months for most people. The game and models could just disappear in a puff of smoke at any time. Not to mention GB was a skirmish game with a tiny range by comparison, not even a full blown wargame. If they couldn't handle the logistics and manage the community for a small skirmish game with a dedicated fanbase I don't see how they could pick up where PP left off. They seem to sell the plastic minis again, but at least from where I'm sitting GB looks like a thorougly dead property by now and they don't have international distribution either. So you had to order from PP in the us directly and with SFG you'd have to order in the uk directly. That's not really improving the supply issues. They do boardgames and RPG minis. That is a different business than keeping dozens of individual products for each faction of a wargame in print at all times. You can randomly swap boardgames or RPGs in and out depending on what sells. A wargame needs more cohesion. Dunno how their warehouse and production situation is, but even if they can solve all of those problems you still need to convince retailers to give the game shelf-space - after it already failed. The direct-only model and poor supply were damaging Warmachine long before the rules were even an issue.
Unless they revert the game back to the first edition in terms of scope I would question if they are equipped to take this system on at all. Their track record is a bit spotty when it comes to keeping a product alive. Maybe they have a smart plan and can pull it off, but I wouldn't expect much.
Thinking that nuking it and remaking so retailers would carry it, my question is who is going to buy it? Old players barely got thru MK4 that they would drop Warmachine completely if they nuke it for a new mark.
Have fun carrying something noone is going to buy that already knows of it.
Always loved the Iron Kingdoms, the game had problems other than the IP.
Wouldn’t mind seeing a new RPG!
Also, I agree completely with a “blow up the world” approach. Give me something new with that IP and I’ll probably be asking you to get me a copy 😂
Video #2..blow it up?
Yet another product line would further alienate prospective customers let alone retailers.
How would a new product line alienate prospective customers?
@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 i was thinking more of potential returning old players tbh
Though anyone taking the time to learn the history of the game would likely be hesitant to invest in a game whose range gets completely axed every few years.
I'm all for resculpts of existing units, just don't go tabula rasa again.
In fact, you want to inspire confidence in the game.....polystyrene minis of the mk 4 range! Or at least the core stuff.
That and relaunch with more than 2 factions ready to go. Mk4s drip feed launch over years really hurt its chances of recapturing their mojo IMHO
I've seen people complain about Warhammer's repeated resets and how that cuts off their previous investments in time and money. Warmachine's "we'll keep it all legal" approach was harder to balance, and came with its own problems, but it's better for the players. Pros and cons either way, but yeah, I'm more in the "I don't want to buy a new army each year" camp. That said, constantly futzing with the product line is a money making attempt, so it's not all that surprising that companies do that. It's a bit like the ol' "software as a service" problem; companies want money, customers don't want to keep paying. There's not much of a sweet spot in the middle any more.
Upset some people?
Looks at Warmachine IV.
Done.
I stopped playing Warmachine after they released Mk3. I think the rules changes to Mk3 made the game a lot worse and Mk4 is just drek.
If Warmachine was rereleased with Mk2 rules with the updated setting, with really solid miniatures instead of the 3d printed miniatures that PP was doing for Mk4 and over pricing then then perhaps Warmachine has a chance.
For right now I care a lot more about the Iron Kingdoms rpg than the miniatures game.
I believe that the game plays best as a small unit count hyper-aggressive almost chess-like game, where units will die often, and the trick is to manage that chaos. Focus on the 'Jacks and 'Beasts, and don't get bogged down with infantry bricks and game delays. That can also appeal to beginners, as you can get running with a mere "battlebox" of a leader and a few chunky models. The push to make infantry important pushed the game away from what made it unique in a Warhammer market. Some of that was game design, some of that was marketing (sell more models), so it wasn't exactly a surprise, but I think it hurt the game. The "page 5" attitude may well put people off, either the easily offended PC types or the casual player in the face of an annoying hyper-competitor, but it nailed down what made the game unique at the time; quick, aggressive piece-trading play vs. Warhammer's army level slow grind. I suppose that Infinity and other skirmish games have taken that market niche these days, so I'm not sure that there's a big place for "I go, you go" smaller unit combat any more. Whatever the case, they need an "on-ramp" that is less than $50, I think, and the game has to have a unique feel beyond the theme. It has to *play* well. Mark IV has streamlined it a bit, and reduced unit/headcount, but I think it needs to go further. Make it quick, brutal, snappy and easy to get into; really lean into those "this game is designed to be fast, clean and fun" roots. If you can demo the game to someone in 5 minutes or less and sell them a ready-to-play box for $40, oh, and here's a paint kit for another $10, you can bring new people in.
It is doomed from the start because for some reason they decided to continue with the current edition. While this should be a fresh start, from scratch and new ruleset - not just new edition but New Warmachine with alternate activations and only hard plastic models.
Agreed, the game needs a fresh nuke on it. But mostly the marketing needs to be good because let’s be real it wasn’t good at all. And for the love of god don’t make it all about competitive play as the Iron kingdoms is a great setting.
It's basically a company that went too wide is being picked up by a company that went too deep.
One had messy rules and the other had overly tight rules.
Perhaps they will learn from each other.
I really hope that Steamforged takes the position that they bought a great IP, and some truly good and innovative ideas.
Likewise I really hope they take the position that the only sane choice from a sales point of view is to effectively mothball the current physical product line and start over with a tighter product range.
I also think there's a real opportunity to soft-launch new models (or new style anyway) by using Epic Encounters as a test bed for some short runs of creating new content around the IP.
Exactly! It's not easy to make those decisions but I think they are the right ones to make, and probably the only road back.
Two big things jump out at me from what you're saying. First is a suggestion that they bring the hobby aspect more to the front. Do you not feel like they're already doing that? For example they put out painting articles reasonably often and they run a paint competition at adepticon. While individual TO's generally don't do paint requirements their two big marquee events The Iron Gauntlet and World Team Championship require fully painted armies.
Second your description of what they would need to do to get the product on your shelf is essentially what they did for the MK4 release. All the rules are free in the app which every box has an insert describing how/where to get it and they have ended production of all their legacy product. It's generally agreed that they didn't do a great job of setting price points/box size for getting into the game but they've already said they're looking to reshuffle the box contents to give a box that's a lower entry point price.
And since I see a bunch of people talking about narrative in the comments the app currently has 2 full narrative leagues and 30+ narrative scenarios (some of which are used for those leagues). In addition they do big narrative events at all the cons the results of which influence the actual game (for example the factions that got access to new kruger)
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
All being cheeky aside, you may be right about these attempts, but I haven't seen any of it. I am pretty online and see no marketing or influencers talking about it.
I think ultimately it didn't matter what PP did at the end, Steamforged will have more leeway with consumers for a honeymoon period to do those things and have people actually notice?
I will say one thing about mk 4. The packaging and presentation was nothing close to what it needed to be. Like you said, they were trying to sell people full collections almost off the bat instead of giving people easy small ways to try out their game. I think back to some of those great early mark 2 faction sets with a caster and 2 Jack's. Those were great!
I hope they take the great IP, and make a great game out of it. I like the idea of a reboot, with the sole purpose of making the people who invested in the IP want to get back into it.
1) Are you worried about Steamforged making the game TOO competitive, like they did with Guildball?
2) What do you think of the rules of mk4? They simplified a lot of things that actually make the game go quicker, but also brought in build your jack and warcaster options which was quite complex.
3) What do you think they do about the lore? Mk4 lore is all over the place.
This dude is living 5 years ago. He hasnt seen the new product line...?
I'm very familiar with Mk4. If it's not in stores because they burned all their bridges with distribution is that a product you would call...alive? What visibility do they currently have?
Especially when you compare them to their Mk2 days.
Agreed, a few strange out of touch takes on this one.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Honestly this a great question as to what we are defining as "alive" :P
Their recent "Welsh Open" tournament had a great turnout of 56 entries.
Is alive defined as product on store shelves, or as tournaments being played locally, or booths and events at large conventions?
I think we all know the game can be very alive in one region, and non-existent in another so for me it's get hard to call anything truly dead...
If they are doing well with a direct to consumer business model then more power to them.
@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 I travel for games and tournaments and whatnot and see warmachine on the shelves. I get the "burned bridges" thing that the company screwed up with retailers, but it's on some shelves. Store in Mobile has it, Fayetteville GA, Greenville, Durham, etc. It might just be southern stores giving them a shot, idk. I personally like most of the aesthetic, troll pirates look great, khador solid as always, the ghost of ios troops are amazing.
I think Warmachine is toxic to anyone who remembers it but didn’t play it, and to store owners as well. The community, if you can call it that, was not welcoming, was not hobby-focused, and if a bunch of new players don’t buy in, it will fail again in short order. In a market that has many more quality choices than ever before for hobbyists and gamers looking for good minis, good rules, and a good community, I don’t see why a customer would choose Warmachine over other games that are available.
Pretty dated reply. You should check the game out again.
That’s exactly my point. Why should I? Why should anyone? And why respond with a snarky attitude when replying to a comment about the unwelcoming nature of the community?
Sorry, but the warmachine community around here was absolutely amazing.
Yes I got wrecked my first 15 games, but my opponent spent the time to explain what went wrong and how my errors caused my loss.
Now, if you walked in and thought you were the big fish, or you should win. Yah you got the energy you put out tossed back in your face.
Back in March we had another mk2 get together had some pizza played some game, no theme lists. Had a Highlander Swiss and reminisced. If that is the hallmark of a bad community that they are keeping the lights on for a dead edition of a floundering game... you have issues.
If you want to be negative that's on you. The game is probably better off without you.
WarMachine was at the height of its power in MK2, the "Play like you have a pair era." For a short moment in time they even challenged GW.
I couldnt care less about warmachine or hordes. 90% of the models always looked naff, and the game was overrated and populated by a significant portion of people with anti social maladaptive behavioral issues than any other games I have seen played, because that shitty slogan "Play like you got a pair" was the clarion call for those who wanted their behaviors validated by a dolly company.
Too bad the actually good game they make, Monpoc, is in legal limbo because of licensing to Mythic.
Regardless, PP are incompetent in business practices, and the past decade is proof of that. Which is hardly a hot take when this is as obvious as the nose on our faces.
I lightly dabbled in hordes because their models were the least offensive to my eyes, but I really feel PP is irrelevent as a company now, as is the Warmachine IP.
It would have to be a completely different game, with completely different models. And at that point, the Warmachine name is more of a detriment than it is an advantage, due to the baggage attached to it.
Well, obviously you cared enough to write a short novel about it in a YT comment section, lol
@@zeno6111753 A short novel?!? Oh yeah, I keep forgetting people's attentions spans are so short, anything longer than 10 words is deemed "War and Peace" levels of exertion to read.
Lemme dumb it down for the cheap seats in the back, with the usual Intarnetz approved TL,DR;
"Warmachine is for assholes."
I think warmachine hit a mass appeal level at its height in 2nd edition where a lot of more casual and hobbyist types were picking it up because it was popular and stores were full of it (and people buy what their friends buy).
But there was a toxic element for sure in many local scenes that pushed those people away, and ultimately made PP a mono pillar company (gamers) and brought on the decline.
@@Colorcrayons I see, thats why you decided to join in after hating it then.
Makes total sense now :P
@@zeno6111753 Did you ever wonder that its not about you, and that you understanding is irrelevant? Likely not since this entire interaction is about your pathological need for attention.