Colossians 2:12 seems to be the most direct statement saying baptism is a work of God. "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead." (ESV)
How can an INFANT be baptized UNTO REPENTANCE. They CANNOT repent because they CANNOT CHANGE THEIR MINDS about sin and indeed they have no sin Jesus said "the kingdom consists of these" The children are not punished for the sins of their parents. Augustine's ORIGINAL sin was based on faulty exegesis.
Matthew 11:28-30 "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light...” Let God’s Peace and Grace be with you (To The Reader). Praise God always. Amen🙏🙌
@@jeffhein7275 he was probably just answering the question postulated in the title without any regard for the opinion of Dr. Cooper. Sometimes when confronted with a question, even if it is rhetorical in nature, you just feel the need to answer it.
Then I can receive it without doing something ? Something that's physical and observable by others and so could be used to boast above those who didn't do it? Boasting in the same manner of "I'm saved and you're not" for the same reason scripture says faith and not works?
Baptismal regeneration is the result of the remission of sins. During baptism,as the result of the shed blood of Christ, the Holy Spirit curcumcises the believers conscience, removing the guilt from past sins, and restoring it to its original childlike abscence of the guilt from wilful sins. This is the washing of regeneration in Titus 3:5. The word "regeneration" defined means to return something to its original state. The original state of our conscience is that of a childs'. This makes water baptism being " born of the Spirit"( John 3:5) and an important part of the new birth.
I like to think of the dichotomy of faith vs works as compared to the dichotomy of luck vs skill. One can have faith that is distinct from works, with both being present and yet separate and distinct. An example is the faith in the Bible verses vs the works of Bible manufacturing, turning the pages, and the mental work of thinking about the meaning of what is read therein. This can lead to the faith and supernatural grace of answered prayers. Similarly, winning a million dollar lottery can have both the luck of obtaining the winning ticket, along with the skills of purchasing the ticket and then checking for the winning number, redeeming the winning ticket, and working with the bank for the deposit of your winnings. Winning such a lottery requires luck as skills alone are not enough.
I'd say that's a bit of a flawed analogy though and don't work to make your point clearer. Skill relies on prior work, and luck relies on random chance, neither of these things adequately represent faith. Faith cannot be represented by skill, because as pointed out, that requires prior works, and would therefore confuse the point of grace by faith, without works. Faith also cannot be luck, because it was a deliberate act on God's behalf to die for us, and it must be a deliberate act on our behalf to accept that gift, therefore faith cannot be represented by luck or chance either. Also, Paul makes it explicitly clear that works do not have any part in salvation, therefore works should not be playing a part in your analogy, full stop.
@@alexwr To the lottery ticket purchaser, they have a certain amount of faith and hope that they will be the lucky winner. The lucky chance that they have purchased the winning ticket depends on the skills of the works of purchasing, checking the numbers, and then redeeming the ticket. They could pray to God that they will purchase the winning ticket, and then God could intervene such that their prayers are answered through the faith and hope of their prayers. You typed, "it must be a deliberate act on our behalf to accept that gift, therefore faith cannot be represented by luck or chance either." This sounds like you are advocating a deliberate human act as the basis for the salvation that is from Christ. You typed, "Also, Paul makes it explicitly clear that works do not have any part in salvation, therefore works should not be playing a part in your analogy, full stop." In Romans 2 (NKJV) we read: 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Also, In James 2 (NKJV) we read: 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Is the preservation of the Holy Scriptures by hand before the invention of the printing press - salvation by works for subsequent generations, since the original manuscripts have not been around for a long time?
Was the thief on the Cross justified by works when he appealed to Christ to save him? Was he justified by works by listening to Christ's Promise of paradise? Baptism is both Appeal and Promise. Baptism contains Christ's Appeal, which is His Suffering and Death. It also contains Christ's Promise of forgiveness. This Promise isn't for everyone in general, but specifically to the person being baptized. It's like hearing Jesus forgive you individually at the Cross. Are you listening?
@@Mkvine Baptism is like hearing Jesus forgive you individually at the Cross, as if you're the thief. The thief didn't just ask Jesus to remember him and then die without hearing Jesus reply. Jesus replied personally to the thief's individual request, granting the promise of eternal life. Baptism is the "reply" from Jesus to the sinner being baptized. It contains the promise of eternal life, like the thief received. Did the thief plug his ears and refuse to listen to Christ's reply to his individual request? Obviously not. Similarly, we don't refuse Baptism, which contains Christ's personal reply to our individual request.
While baptism or even faith may be considered a work, it is crucial to recognize that your work in baptism is not what saves, it is the new creation that God does through your participation in baptism that saves. Our work is only a requirement to receive the work of God. This view satisfies Eph 2:9. The same can be seen in the Exodus where the Israelites had to walk to the sea and then across (after the miracle of God) to receive the salvation that was, decisively, provided by God.
The John 3:16 analogy doesn't hold water, pardon the pun. You don't open the Bible to John 3 :16 with the intention that that will save you. However with baptism you do it explicitly to get saved. 100 people can read John 3:16 and maybe none of them will be saved however if 100 people get baptized in order to be saved then it's certain that none of them will be saved as they are working for it. Let me give you an analogy that will work. Let's say that everyone that climbs Mt Everest receives a medallion when they get down to commemorate it. You just climbed Mt Everest and are passively receiving your medallion in which you are doing NO WORK in receiveing it at least according to people who believe in baptismal regeneration. Now agreed climbing Mt Everest is a tad more work than getting ready to be baptized but the amount of work done matters not, its the fact that you HAD to do some amount of work.
No, it's not a work. According to John 3:5, it says you must be born of water and spirit. So just as in the physical you don't/can't biirth yourself, so as in the spiritual, you don’t/can't baptize yourself either. It's an action that is done to you. God does the work not us.
Is there a difference between doing a “work” in an attempt to curry spiritual favor with God, and doing a “work” by intentionally letting go of one’s own autonomy to act in obedience to Christ, or are these both considered equivalent in terms of working for one’s own salvation?
We are justified by good works as Paul says (Romans 2:13) and James says (James 2:24), we are just not justified works *of the Law of Moses* . Just like every Christian who correctly interpreted Romans, Galatians etc for the first 1400+ years of Christianity (Origen, Chrysostom, Jerome, even Augustine, etc). So this is an irrelevant and autustic obsession of Lutherans to justify themselves in face of their own monstrous and ever snow-balling heresy Luther created.
We disagree on the use of justification. We argue justify here does not refer to a salvific sense but instead a "proof" of faith. A saved believer will naturally produce works which justify (prove) their saved state. One who doesn't naturally produce works isn't saved because their lack of works justify (prove) a disingenious faith.
@@oldbenkenob1 Here is Romans 2:13, with some added context: 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Do you think these Gentiles of verse 14 were Christians, and why or why not?
Yeah! The good works of God done in and through the faithful. The EO seem to say the same when they use the language of 'energies'; it's God's energies working in, with, under our own that makes us righteous.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Colossians 2:12 seems to be the most direct statement saying baptism is a work of God. "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead." (ESV)
How can an INFANT be baptized UNTO REPENTANCE. They CANNOT repent because they CANNOT CHANGE THEIR MINDS about sin and indeed they have no sin
Jesus said "the kingdom consists of these" The children are not punished for the sins of their parents. Augustine's ORIGINAL sin was based on faulty exegesis.
That's still a leap of logic, even if a smaller one, and it goes counter to the majority of scripture.
Matthew 11:28-30 "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light...”
Let God’s Peace and Grace be with you (To The Reader). Praise God always. Amen🙏🙌
The yoke is easy....that's about aviation. Boeing uses yoke, Airbus a sidestick? What would Jesus do? Fly on a Boeing of course .......... (Humor)
Enlightening.
Yes it is. But, it's salvation by God's work for man and not vice versa.
Yes -- that was his point in the video
@@jeffhein7275 he was probably just answering the question postulated in the title without any regard for the opinion of Dr. Cooper. Sometimes when confronted with a question, even if it is rhetorical in nature, you just feel the need to answer it.
Then I can receive it without doing something ? Something that's physical and observable by others and so could be used to boast above those who didn't do it? Boasting in the same manner of "I'm saved and you're not" for the same reason scripture says faith and not works?
@@VndNvwYvvSvvsame thing could be said about faith…
Baptismal regeneration is the result of the remission of sins.
During baptism,as the result of the shed blood of Christ, the Holy Spirit curcumcises the believers conscience, removing the guilt from past sins, and restoring it to its original childlike abscence of the guilt from wilful sins.
This is the washing of regeneration in Titus 3:5. The word "regeneration" defined means to return something to its original state. The original state of our conscience is that of a childs'.
This makes water baptism being " born of the Spirit"( John 3:5) and an important part of the new birth.
Great stuff.
its both Gods and our work. We work together.
Thank you for Law&Gospel, Word&Sacrament.
I like to think of the dichotomy of faith vs works as compared to the dichotomy of luck vs skill. One can have faith that is distinct from works, with both being present and yet separate and distinct. An example is the faith in the Bible verses vs the works of Bible manufacturing, turning the pages, and the mental work of thinking about the meaning of what is read therein. This can lead to the faith and supernatural grace of answered prayers. Similarly, winning a million dollar lottery can have both the luck of obtaining the winning ticket, along with the skills of purchasing the ticket and then checking for the winning number, redeeming the winning ticket, and working with the bank for the deposit of your winnings. Winning such a lottery requires luck as skills alone are not enough.
I'd say that's a bit of a flawed analogy though and don't work to make your point clearer.
Skill relies on prior work, and luck relies on random chance, neither of these things adequately represent faith.
Faith cannot be represented by skill, because as pointed out, that requires prior works, and would therefore confuse the point of grace by faith, without works.
Faith also cannot be luck, because it was a deliberate act on God's behalf to die for us, and it must be a deliberate act on our behalf to accept that gift, therefore faith cannot be represented by luck or chance either.
Also, Paul makes it explicitly clear that works do not have any part in salvation, therefore works should not be playing a part in your analogy, full stop.
@@alexwr To the lottery ticket purchaser, they have a certain amount of faith and hope that they will be the lucky winner. The lucky chance that they have purchased the winning ticket depends on the skills of the works of purchasing, checking the numbers, and then redeeming the ticket. They could pray to God that they will purchase the winning ticket, and then God could intervene such that their prayers are answered through the faith and hope of their prayers.
You typed, "it must be a deliberate act on our behalf to accept that gift, therefore faith cannot be represented by luck or chance either." This sounds like you are advocating a deliberate human act as the basis for the salvation that is from Christ.
You typed, "Also, Paul makes it explicitly clear that works do not have any part in salvation, therefore works should not be playing a part in your analogy, full stop." In Romans 2 (NKJV) we read:
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
Also, In James 2 (NKJV) we read:
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Is the preservation of the Holy Scriptures by hand before the invention of the printing press - salvation by works for subsequent generations, since the original manuscripts have not been around for a long time?
Was the thief on the Cross justified by works when he appealed to Christ to save him? Was he justified by works by listening to Christ's Promise of paradise?
Baptism is both Appeal and Promise. Baptism contains Christ's Appeal, which is His Suffering and Death. It also contains Christ's Promise of forgiveness. This Promise isn't for everyone in general, but specifically to the person being baptized. It's like hearing Jesus forgive you individually at the Cross. Are you listening?
Are you saying that we shouldn’t get baptized?
@@Mkvine
Are you joking?
@@ro6ti I don’t know what your saying!
@@Mkvine
Baptism is like hearing Jesus forgive you individually at the Cross, as if you're the thief.
The thief didn't just ask Jesus to remember him and then die without hearing Jesus reply. Jesus replied personally to the thief's individual request, granting the promise of eternal life.
Baptism is the "reply" from Jesus to the sinner being baptized. It contains the promise of eternal life, like the thief received.
Did the thief plug his ears and refuse to listen to Christ's reply to his individual request? Obviously not. Similarly, we don't refuse Baptism, which contains Christ's personal reply to our individual request.
While baptism or even faith may be considered a work, it is crucial to recognize that your work in baptism is not what saves, it is the new creation that God does through your participation in baptism that saves. Our work is only a requirement to receive the work of God. This view satisfies Eph 2:9. The same can be seen in the Exodus where the Israelites had to walk to the sea and then across (after the miracle of God) to receive the salvation that was, decisively, provided by God.
The John 3:16 analogy doesn't hold water, pardon the pun. You don't open the Bible to John 3 :16 with the intention that that will save you. However with baptism you do it explicitly to get saved. 100 people can read John 3:16 and maybe none of them will be saved however if 100 people get baptized in order to be saved then it's certain that none of them will be saved as they are working for it.
Let me give you an analogy that will work. Let's say that everyone that climbs Mt Everest receives a medallion when they get down to commemorate it. You just climbed Mt Everest and are passively receiving your medallion in which you are doing NO WORK in receiveing it at least according to people who believe in baptismal regeneration. Now agreed climbing Mt Everest is a tad more work than getting ready to be baptized but the amount of work done matters not, its the fact that you HAD to do some amount of work.
No, it's not a work. According to John 3:5, it says you must be born of water and spirit. So just as in the physical you don't/can't biirth yourself, so as in the spiritual, you don’t/can't baptize yourself either. It's an action that is done to you. God does the work not us.
Is there a difference between doing a “work” in an attempt to curry spiritual favor with God, and doing a “work” by intentionally letting go of one’s own autonomy to act in obedience to Christ, or are these both considered equivalent in terms of working for one’s own salvation?
"... gentile converts to (platform won't let me say it)". So..... The opposite of salvation because that's the ministry which brings only death, LOL
Yes, it is a work!
You're right, it is a work. God's work!
We are justified by good works as Paul says (Romans 2:13) and James says (James 2:24), we are just not justified works *of the Law of Moses* . Just like every Christian who correctly interpreted Romans, Galatians etc for the first 1400+ years of Christianity (Origen, Chrysostom, Jerome, even Augustine, etc). So this is an irrelevant and autustic obsession of Lutherans to justify themselves in face of their own monstrous and ever snow-balling heresy Luther created.
Ironically, Romans 2:13 refers to works of the law. So which is it?
We disagree on the use of justification. We argue justify here does not refer to a salvific sense but instead a "proof" of faith. A saved believer will naturally produce works which justify (prove) their saved state. One who doesn't naturally produce works isn't saved because their lack of works justify (prove) a disingenious faith.
@@oldbenkenob1 Here is Romans 2:13, with some added context:
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Do you think these Gentiles of verse 14 were Christians, and why or why not?
Yeah! The good works of God done in and through the faithful.
The EO seem to say the same when they use the language of 'energies'; it's God's energies working in, with, under our own that makes us righteous.
Learn the severity of the Law and you'll beg for something besides works for justification.
There's no such thing as regeneration.