Absolutely wonderful video Julia, you made my day with the taste face. Well done that you were willing to sample the second one. Keep up the experiments and recording them for us.💝💖😍
Trying to pull off making camembert is an absolutely brilliant added dimension to your output! Seriously, I'm sure you could dedicate an entire channel to this endeavour. Personally, I'd approach eating months' old milk with rather more trepidation than you showed - although your tasting face was utterly priceless. Vive la fromage!!! For maintaining humidity, I'd suggest keeping the cheeses in close proximity to several small breathable sacks of rice; add or take them away as appropriate. For temp maintenance, you'll need to use a box along with a heater and/or cooler - a big cardboard box should do if indoors. Govee sell a great 'smart' thermometer/hygrometer for £14 (UK) on amazon - it'll hook up to your phone via an app. For a heater, try a 'mat' heater for lizard tanks and such. To control the heater and/or cooler, you can use a 'smart' plug that will link (via google home/alexa/etc) the plug and the govee thermometer/hygrometer. The whole kit will maybe cost you £100 to £150.
This Camembert did not turn out the way I hoped. If you have any suggestions on what I could've done differently while still trying to stay close to the original description, I would love to hear them 😀
Good on you for giving things a go! As you discovered we have to remember to take into consideration the variation between modern & traditional ingredients & methods. As a general rule I'll use the flocculation method too & follow the manufacturers recommendation for things such as rennet set times, (rather than just going by what the recipe states) - as types of rennet & IMCU's vary, as does the milk from season to season depending on things like feed & lactation cycles. Attempt one isn't a complete failure - it's just not what you expected. You could still use it for a lactic style cheese, something more like Quark or Labneh by draining off the whey in cloth and then hanging it overnight to drain of more moister & firm up to cream cheese consistency, add a bit of salt & it's a perfectly useful condiment. In terms of cultures I'm curious as to why you double dosed & why you added thermophillic cultures (as they are most active when kept between 35C to 50C.) Thinking about what else you could use if you don't have access to raw milk: you could brew your own liquid starter culture, you can do that the day before & incubate it overnight (use a small UHT milk- as the inside of the container will be sterile.) Or get your hands on some milk kefir grains on something like Facebook marketplace & also incubate overnight to make a liquid kefir starter. The ammoniated "slipped skin" rind is due to excessive ripening & will never improve - as you mentioned too much culture = acceleration of the breakdown of proteins. Bitterness can also be due to rennet activity (as it's also a protease). Check out some info about proteolysis here: www.cheesescience.org/cheesetexturebasics.html
Thanks for your insights. My thinking behind double dosing the cultures was because the instructions used two separate batches of raw milk and so I thought the easiest way to imitate that was to add culture with each batch of milk. I added the thermophilic culture because the milk started out at 38 degrees so I thought it might have some impact even though that was on the lower end of the ideal temperatures, especially as I was using the cultures to replace raw milk which would have thermophilic cultures.
Thanks for sharing your experiment. Aside from the educational value, watching you taste your experiments was delightful. I am impressed with your curiosity and willingness to subject your taste buds to unusual experiences. Please keep these videos coming. I'll look forward to your next experiment as well as your next historical investigation.
Great ! Yes It takes more than 2 liters of milk to make a camembert fat of about 28g per liter of milk Milk is heated to 34°C Milk is never heated above 37°C (temperature of the cow's udder) in order to preserve its organoleptic qualities. On the 3rd day, remove the camemberts from their molds and place them to ripen at 12-15°C. Best regards from France !
It seems Camembert from that era uses wild microbes and a mixed rind cheese just like St. Nectaire, Tomme De Savoie and Reblochon. I will try this without using mold cultures and let the natural molds grow. I will post the results in cheeseforum. Thanks for trying this out and sharing the process.
Would it be better to use Sal de Mer rather than regular table salt? I would think that that’s what would have been available back in the day. Or does it matter?
may want to try rinsing the mold with vinegar before filling with curd ... 🤓👍👌🖖✌😎the only other thing i would think to try using butter milk or plain yogurt to acidify your milk over night ... the powder cultures are usually instant (about 15- 45 minutes)
I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. I've done a lot of playing around with this style of cheese, so I'll give you my 2 cents. I think you are right that you had some over acidification. Rennet works *much* faster at a lower pH and so, you'll want to pare that down. Your renneting rate was 15 IMCU per liter, if I've done my math right and I think that's probably just about right. You *could* go down to 10, but I think it's fine. Make sure you're measuring it correctly. For culture, there is literally no way to measure that amount of DVI culture accurately. DVI culture varies *wildly* by strength from batch to batch and while they try to even it out, there is absolutely no way to measure that small amount volumetrically and even come close to what you want. Instead, you need to make a "mother culture". Rather sadly, you *had* a mother culture at your disposal in your first failed attempt :-) Just make a small amount of thermophilic yogurt (sometimes called "buttermilk") like you did. You want to choose a temperature that gives you a balance of the various cultures in there and I find 24 degrees for 12-15 hours is just about right. Ideally, catch it just as it gels (which will be a pH of about 4.9 at that temp) and put it in the fridge. That will give you a maximal cell count. If you are going to add both mesophilic and thermophilic cultures, you should make 2 mother cultures -- one for each. They both prefer different temperatures and pH ranges. For the thermophilic culture I find 42 degrees for about 7-8 hours is just about right. Again, try to catch it just as it gels (which will be about a pH of 5.2 at that temp) and stick it in the fridge. It doesn't make a *huge* difference, so don't worry if you just let it go. I'm just a control freak :-) If you continue to culture these things, it *does* make a difference over time because different cultures like different pH ranges, so the balance in the culture mix will change over time. So it's really just a matter of preference. These are the places that I think makes optimal mother cultures, though. For the amount to add, when normally making cheese, you should add about 15 grams of mother culture per liter. Yogurt has a density pretty close to water so, 15 ml will be pretty darn close and easy to measure. For simulating raw milk, something on the order of 4-7 grams per liter is about right, I think. I've only done it a couple of times and I'm not sure exactly what level is good. But definitely at this level, mother cultures are the only way you are going to get any kind of precision. I'm running out of space... Next, I think you let the curd go even a bit too long. It was pulling away from the sides of the container. Your flocc time was 25 minutes and you went 150 minutes for a multiplier of 6. That's *way* too long for a traditional Camembert. I know lots of recipes say that and even Caldwell has that (probably) in her recipe (it's different in different places in the recipe), but I think it's incorrect. 4-5 is more traditional based on all of the research I've done. Ladling: You fell victim to the exact same mistake that I've made before. The 45 minutes per layer is *important*. It's also one of the reasons why you don't want a flocc multiplier of 6. The curd is intended to firm up in the molds. If you pile all the curd in the mold all at once, it compresses the lower half of the curd and doesn't compress the top. This overpresses the lower part of the cheese and *stops the cheese from draining*. This, in turn causes the cheese to over acidify, etc, etc. Also, the curd in the vat *is still draining*. The whole idea (and this is literally what distinguishes Camembert from Brie) is that the curd in the mold is draining at the same speed as the curd in the vat. As you ladle the curd into the mold, the curd you are adding is getting more and more dense. When you finish adding the curd to the mold (after about 3 hours), the cheese has basically completely drained -- evenly from top to bottom. I agree that a flip after 4 hours or so and another one after 8 hours is a good idea. Just to make it completely clear: This is the Camembert technique. Unfortunately, it's a very difficult technique that takes quite a lot of practice to get right. I suck at it :-) Some preference things: I would use 3 molds instead of 4 for a Camembert. You should aim for 250 grams per cheese. Traditional producers get between 13-15% yield (surprisingly low! and the drainage problems you had will have caused issues for you there). 15% of 4000 is 600, so 3 molds will give you 200 grams per cheese, which is already a bit low. I actually usually only do 2 cheeses and try to drain the cheese as best I can. Also, volumetric salt is a recipe for disaster, IMHO. If it works for you, then that's fine, but 1-1.25% percent salt by weight is what I am for, personally. The other problem you had was that the PC grew *way* too fast. You don't say what strain of PC you used, but especially modern strains are *super* quick because they are meant to be used on stabilised paste cheeses. Either way, though, adding the culture to the milk is just a no-no unless you are going to use refrigeration to keep the temperature down. I wouldn't even spray it on. Instead, make a cheese ahead of time and rub some of the mold from that cheese onto your new cheeses. That was actually a normal method for some people in the old days. Some caves don't need it, though. I hope you try again! I had my fair share of disasters when I tried to use these techniques. The techniques in cheese making books make great cheese and are *much* easier, but I think it's worth learning how to do it the hard way. I'm not sure there is a massive difference in the end, but the skills you develop will be worthwhile, I think. Also, I hope you do more of these cheese making videos. I don't know of anybody else doing videos and thinking about technique as much as you are!
Damn. I forgot to add a comment about the temperature: 38 C is *way* too high. Yes, cows are 38 degrees. Milk, 2 hours after you milked the cow, is 36 degrees. Also, traditionally Camembert producers did not maintain their temperatures. So it *starts* at 36 and falls while it coagulates. This is quite important.
I'm not sure. I suffered no ileffects from the small amount I ate (the rest of the cheese went in the bin once I realised there was no hope). It would be very difficult to eat large amounts of ammonia-tasting cheese as it doesn't taste nice.
It is great to share the failures as well as triumphs! Thank you.
Don't fret so much. History has shown, that we learn more from our mistakes than from our discoveries. Keep up the good work.
This is your funniest video to date. The cheese tasting face you pull towards the end made me laugh out loud.
Brave and brilliant!
Thanks
Absolutely wonderful video Julia, you made my day with the taste face. Well done that you were willing to sample the second one. Keep up the experiments and recording them for us.💝💖😍
😁
You deserve a medal for having a second mouthful in taste test 2!
A very interesting experiment and fun video 😁
I had to really make sure it tasted bad 🤣
@@cheesehistory 😂😂😂 you could have checked the video. Your face was absolutely certain!!! 😂😂😂
Begins questioning life choices is an awesome subtitle 😂
😁
Trying to pull off making camembert is an absolutely brilliant added dimension to your output!
Seriously, I'm sure you could dedicate an entire channel to this endeavour.
Personally, I'd approach eating months' old milk with rather more trepidation than you showed - although your tasting face was utterly priceless.
Vive la fromage!!!
For maintaining humidity, I'd suggest keeping the cheeses in close proximity to several small breathable sacks of rice; add or take them away as appropriate.
For temp maintenance, you'll need to use a box along with a heater and/or cooler - a big cardboard box should do if indoors.
Govee sell a great 'smart' thermometer/hygrometer for £14 (UK) on amazon - it'll hook up to your phone via an app.
For a heater, try a 'mat' heater for lizard tanks and such.
To control the heater and/or cooler, you can use a 'smart' plug that will link (via google home/alexa/etc) the plug and the govee thermometer/hygrometer.
The whole kit will maybe cost you £100 to £150.
Thanks. It was an opportunity I couldn't resist.
@@cheesehistory Like much of the audience, I had no idea you made cheese too.
That's pretty cool.
This is perhaps not the best example of my cheese making skills either 🤣
@@cheesehistory more!
This Camembert did not turn out the way I hoped. If you have any suggestions on what I could've done differently while still trying to stay close to the original description, I would love to hear them 😀
Good on you for giving things a go! As you discovered we have to remember to take into consideration the variation between modern & traditional ingredients & methods. As a general rule I'll use the flocculation method too & follow the manufacturers recommendation for things such as rennet set times, (rather than just going by what the recipe states) - as types of rennet & IMCU's vary, as does the milk from season to season depending on things like feed & lactation cycles.
Attempt one isn't a complete failure - it's just not what you expected. You could still use it for a lactic style cheese, something more like Quark or Labneh by draining off the whey in cloth and then hanging it overnight to drain of more moister & firm up to cream cheese consistency, add a bit of salt & it's a perfectly useful condiment.
In terms of cultures I'm curious as to why you double dosed & why you added thermophillic cultures (as they are most active when kept between 35C to 50C.) Thinking about what else you could use if you don't have access to raw milk: you could brew your own liquid starter culture, you can do that the day before & incubate it overnight (use a small UHT milk- as the inside of the container will be sterile.) Or get your hands on some milk kefir grains on something like Facebook marketplace & also incubate overnight to make a liquid kefir starter.
The ammoniated "slipped skin" rind is due to excessive ripening & will never improve - as you mentioned too much culture = acceleration of the breakdown of proteins. Bitterness can also be due to rennet activity (as it's also a protease). Check out some info about proteolysis here: www.cheesescience.org/cheesetexturebasics.html
Thanks for your insights.
My thinking behind double dosing the cultures was because the instructions used two separate batches of raw milk and so I thought the easiest way to imitate that was to add culture with each batch of milk. I added the thermophilic culture because the milk started out at 38 degrees so I thought it might have some impact even though that was on the lower end of the ideal temperatures, especially as I was using the cultures to replace raw milk which would have thermophilic cultures.
Great video
Thanks for sharing your experiment. Aside from the educational value, watching you taste your experiments was delightful. I am impressed with your curiosity and willingness to subject your taste buds to unusual experiences. Please keep these videos coming. I'll look forward to your next experiment as well as your next historical investigation.
Great ! Yes It takes more than 2 liters of milk to make a camembert
fat of about 28g per liter of milk
Milk is heated to 34°C Milk is never heated above 37°C (temperature of the cow's udder) in order to preserve its organoleptic qualities.
On the 3rd day, remove the camemberts from their molds and place them to ripen at 12-15°C.
Best regards from France !
Thank you
It seems Camembert from that era uses wild microbes and a mixed rind cheese just like St. Nectaire, Tomme De Savoie and Reblochon. I will try this without using mold cultures and let the natural molds grow. I will post the results in cheeseforum. Thanks for trying this out and sharing the process.
Cool idea. Hope you have better luck than me 😁
Very interesting! Still cool even if it didn’t work out.
Would it be better to use Sal de Mer rather than regular table salt? I would think that that’s what would have been available back in the day. Or does it matter?
may want to try rinsing the mold with vinegar before filling with curd ... 🤓👍👌🖖✌😎the only other thing i would think to try using butter milk or plain yogurt to acidify your milk over night ... the powder cultures are usually instant (about 15- 45 minutes)
I like that idea. Thanks
Great video Julia, sorry it didn't work out this time, we all have fails from time to time (well i do!!!) x
Indeed we do. Sometimes we need to fail to learn, and I learned a lot from this failure 😁
I would definitely lessen the amount of rennet because too much rennet amounts to bitterness in the cheese.
Good point. Thanks
🤓👍👌🖖✌😎
I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. I've done a lot of playing around with this style of cheese, so I'll give you my 2 cents.
I think you are right that you had some over acidification. Rennet works *much* faster at a lower pH and so, you'll want to pare that down. Your renneting rate was 15 IMCU per liter, if I've done my math right and I think that's probably just about right. You *could* go down to 10, but I think it's fine. Make sure you're measuring it correctly.
For culture, there is literally no way to measure that amount of DVI culture accurately. DVI culture varies *wildly* by strength from batch to batch and while they try to even it out, there is absolutely no way to measure that small amount volumetrically and even come close to what you want. Instead, you need to make a "mother culture". Rather sadly, you *had* a mother culture at your disposal in your first failed attempt :-) Just make a small amount of thermophilic yogurt (sometimes called "buttermilk") like you did. You want to choose a temperature that gives you a balance of the various cultures in there and I find 24 degrees for 12-15 hours is just about right. Ideally, catch it just as it gels (which will be a pH of about 4.9 at that temp) and put it in the fridge. That will give you a maximal cell count.
If you are going to add both mesophilic and thermophilic cultures, you should make 2 mother cultures -- one for each. They both prefer different temperatures and pH ranges. For the thermophilic culture I find 42 degrees for about 7-8 hours is just about right. Again, try to catch it just as it gels (which will be about a pH of 5.2 at that temp) and stick it in the fridge. It doesn't make a *huge* difference, so don't worry if you just let it go. I'm just a control freak :-) If you continue to culture these things, it *does* make a difference over time because different cultures like different pH ranges, so the balance in the culture mix will change over time. So it's really just a matter of preference. These are the places that I think makes optimal mother cultures, though.
For the amount to add, when normally making cheese, you should add about 15 grams of mother culture per liter. Yogurt has a density pretty close to water so, 15 ml will be pretty darn close and easy to measure. For simulating raw milk, something on the order of 4-7 grams per liter is about right, I think. I've only done it a couple of times and I'm not sure exactly what level is good. But definitely at this level, mother cultures are the only way you are going to get any kind of precision.
I'm running out of space... Next, I think you let the curd go even a bit too long. It was pulling away from the sides of the container. Your flocc time was 25 minutes and you went 150 minutes for a multiplier of 6. That's *way* too long for a traditional Camembert. I know lots of recipes say that and even Caldwell has that (probably) in her recipe (it's different in different places in the recipe), but I think it's incorrect. 4-5 is more traditional based on all of the research I've done.
Ladling: You fell victim to the exact same mistake that I've made before. The 45 minutes per layer is *important*. It's also one of the reasons why you don't want a flocc multiplier of 6. The curd is intended to firm up in the molds. If you pile all the curd in the mold all at once, it compresses the lower half of the curd and doesn't compress the top. This overpresses the lower part of the cheese and *stops the cheese from draining*. This, in turn causes the cheese to over acidify, etc, etc. Also, the curd in the vat *is still draining*. The whole idea (and this is literally what distinguishes Camembert from Brie) is that the curd in the mold is draining at the same speed as the curd in the vat. As you ladle the curd into the mold, the curd you are adding is getting more and more dense. When you finish adding the curd to the mold (after about 3 hours), the cheese has basically completely drained -- evenly from top to bottom. I agree that a flip after 4 hours or so and another one after 8 hours is a good idea.
Just to make it completely clear: This is the Camembert technique. Unfortunately, it's a very difficult technique that takes quite a lot of practice to get right. I suck at it :-)
Some preference things: I would use 3 molds instead of 4 for a Camembert. You should aim for 250 grams per cheese. Traditional producers get between 13-15% yield (surprisingly low! and the drainage problems you had will have caused issues for you there). 15% of 4000 is 600, so 3 molds will give you 200 grams per cheese, which is already a bit low. I actually usually only do 2 cheeses and try to drain the cheese as best I can. Also, volumetric salt is a recipe for disaster, IMHO. If it works for you, then that's fine, but 1-1.25% percent salt by weight is what I am for, personally.
The other problem you had was that the PC grew *way* too fast. You don't say what strain of PC you used, but especially modern strains are *super* quick because they are meant to be used on stabilised paste cheeses. Either way, though, adding the culture to the milk is just a no-no unless you are going to use refrigeration to keep the temperature down. I wouldn't even spray it on. Instead, make a cheese ahead of time and rub some of the mold from that cheese onto your new cheeses. That was actually a normal method for some people in the old days. Some caves don't need it, though.
I hope you try again! I had my fair share of disasters when I tried to use these techniques. The techniques in cheese making books make great cheese and are *much* easier, but I think it's worth learning how to do it the hard way. I'm not sure there is a massive difference in the end, but the skills you develop will be worthwhile, I think. Also, I hope you do more of these cheese making videos. I don't know of anybody else doing videos and thinking about technique as much as you are!
Damn. I forgot to add a comment about the temperature: 38 C is *way* too high. Yes, cows are 38 degrees. Milk, 2 hours after you milked the cow, is 36 degrees. Also, traditionally Camembert producers did not maintain their temperatures. So it *starts* at 36 and falls while it coagulates. This is quite important.
Thanks. This is super helpful.
😰
Is it safe to eat cheese with strong taste of ammonia? I know it can be very toxic in seafood.
I'm not sure. I suffered no ileffects from the small amount I ate (the rest of the cheese went in the bin once I realised there was no hope). It would be very difficult to eat large amounts of ammonia-tasting cheese as it doesn't taste nice.
@@cheesehistory I bet. Didn't sound pleasant at all.
nice try