Why fino' CHamoru is not a mixed form of Spanish or a creole

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  • Опубликовано: 17 ноя 2024

Комментарии • 50

  • @ANTSEMUT1
    @ANTSEMUT1 4 года назад +9

    I totally agree with you, If they level that accusation at the Chamoru language, Malay and Javanese are creoles too since they contain loads of loanwords and certain features from other unrelated languages. The fact that aren't is proof of your statement.

    • @pulanspeaks
      @pulanspeaks  4 года назад +2

      Terima kasih kawan! Thanks for pointing out how despite Malay and Javanese contains loanwords and other features from other languages, they are not considered mixed languages or creoles.

  • @ProximaCentauri88
    @ProximaCentauri88 2 года назад +6

    Purism also exists in the Philippines with purists consciously avoiding Spanish loan words in Tagalog yet actually still using other loans from Sanskrit, Malay, and Chinese.
    Tetum is another Austronesian language which shares the same heavy Iberian lexification yet it is still an Austronesian language, not a creole.
    Great video! Biba! Mabuhay from the Philippines.

  • @TheSpectacledOwl
    @TheSpectacledOwl 3 года назад +8

    If we want to dispel that view, the Chamorro people must use native-but-forgotten words.
    Examples: I exclusively hear the word “familia” instead of “manggåfa.” They literally mean the same thing.
    We have a native numbering system, but we strictly use the Spanish or English numbering system.
    We have native terms for the months of the year, but we Chamorros exclusively use the Spanish-introduced months.
    Until the Chamorros renounce the Spanish introduced terms in favor of the native ones, I doubt the distinction will ever be made.
    If that means the Chamorro people must embrace a concept called linguistic purism (almost exclusively put into practice in Iceland), then so be it.

    • @christophergarrido2802
      @christophergarrido2802 3 года назад

      Where can we learn these native versions of those words because i'm trying to learn and they're not in the Chamorro-English Dictionary i have which is one of the few books i've been able to fine.

    • @nunyabiznes33
      @nunyabiznes33 Год назад

      Is the native number system cumbersome? I've noticed that in Filipino we only use the native words for 1-10 and flat 100s and 1000s but not 10000s. Everything else is in Spanish and English (the former the preferred for time and age).

  • @pulanspeaks
    @pulanspeaks  4 года назад +4

    Timestamp
    0:00 - Introduction
    1:14 - The idea that CHamoru is a mixed form of Spanish is based on the purist framework of language
    1:43 - Why the purist view on language is wrong
    2:24 - English as an example
    4:20 - Why the evolution of English example makes the purist framework untenable
    5:30 - Why Spanish loanwords in CHamoru does not make CHamoru a mixed form of Spanish or a fake language
    6:28 - Spanish loanwords are adapted to fit with CHamoru phonology
    7:30 - Loanwords become part of the native speakers lexicon
    7:57 - English vocabulary as examples
    9:13 - CHamoru authenticity should not be based on etymology
    10:15 - The great contradiction
    10:31 - Examples of CHamoru words borrowed from Spanish of Arabic origin
    11:15 - How the idea that CHamoru is not authentic or a mix language due to Spanish loanwords contradicts itself
    12:36 - Examples of CHamoru words borrowed from Spanish borrowed from Arabic borrowed from other languages
    13:04 - Restating why the authenticity of a language is not dependent on loanwords
    14:04 - Why the 'large' amount of 'foreign' words in CHamoru does not make CHamoru a fake or mixed language
    15:00 - 54.9% of CHamoru words are from Spanish origin
    15:50 - This dictionary derived percentage is not atypical compared to other languages
    16:32 - Different comparison methodologies between CHamoru and Spanish indicate much lower percentages
    17:11 - Determining if CHamoru is a mixed language based on a mixed language criteria
    18:00 - Determining the classification of languages
    18:51 - The language classification of CHamoru and Spanish
    20:33 - Why CHamoru is not a creole
    22:23 - Conclusion

  • @sporty1093
    @sporty1093 4 года назад +3

    Excellent video. Plan on showing your videos to my students.

    • @pulanspeaks
      @pulanspeaks  4 года назад

      Si Yu'os ma'ase! Hope the video proves useful for your class!

    • @guahunai3308
      @guahunai3308 2 года назад

      Cbelu just a thought for future learning, I am still trying to make sense of our ancient chamorro ancestors, during guelo and geula migrated out from Indonesia, way before spain conquered what was the name of phillipines and the people? If they can answer this we can piece together both ancestral relations chamorro and phillipines.

  • @safuwanfauzi5014
    @safuwanfauzi5014 3 года назад +3

    English have Malay word too like Paddy, Amok, Pandan/pandanus, caladium, Orangutan, bamboo. cockatoo, compound[kampung], durian, gibbon, gecko. gong, kapok, kapur, nipa, pangolin[guling mean to roll], rambutan, rattan, sago, sambal, sarong, salak, trepang and many more. Malay are lingual franca in Malay archipelago, many manuscript, stone inscription, law text and book written in standard Malay, example in Aceh, they speak Acehnese, but book written in Malay, in Southern Philippine, Sulu archipelago they speak Tausug, but treaty written in Malay with English, the oldest surviving letters written in Malay are the letters from Sultan Abu Hayat of Ternate, Maluku Islands in Indonesia, date in 1521-1522. The text is addressed to the king of Portugal. The Dutch, Portuguese and English when they come to Sumatra, Borneo, Java and Peninsular they learn Malay, even have Malay sailor and slave among them. Philippine Luzon to Mindanao spoke Malay as inter-ethnic and tribe language or lingua franca, and Philippine also was part of Srivijaya[short time] and Brunei empire, Seludong in Luzon is satellite kingdom of Brunei, they intermarried each other, that how Malay language spread, Baybayin script come from Malay script of sumatra 'Rencong' and rejang script. Cebu Kingdom King are Srivijayan-Chola Prince/Malay-Tamil mixed, so Malay become lingua franca, but after Spanish, Malay become decrease only ethnic language still spoke. Spanish become lingua franca. but in Indonesia and small part of Southern Philippine in Sulu archipelago and Coast of Mindanao Malay survive. Today Tagalog/Filipino have few Malay loanword because of Malay as lingua franca, trade language and also part of Brunei and Srivijaya, the Malay influences like culture, language, architecture spread in that era. Today Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei and Cocos Island are majority Malay-Indonesia speaker. others in Southernmost Thailand, Malay majority in 4 Province of Yala, Narathiwat, Santun and Pattani, and Bangsamoro Automouns Region.

    • @guahunai3308
      @guahunai3308 3 года назад +3

      Tagolu is Cantonese, all the history of phillipines before Spain was owned and rules by Malay/Indonesian Empire. But for some reason filipinos don't like this information and take it offensively, they even claim that chamorros came from the created identity of present day phillipines. Chamorro tribe has always been identified before Magellan ever stepped foot in the Asian Pacific Island locations

    • @khust2993
      @khust2993 3 года назад +4

      @@guahunai3308 In the Philippines, it's commonly accepted that we were very close to Malays and Indonesians especially before the Europeans colonized and we don't deny it, even some Christianized ethnic groups like Tagalogs used to be partially Islamized because of the close relations with Brunei. We did have Malay and Sanskrit loanwords in our languages, and Arab/Persian (via Malay) and Hokkien Chinese to lesser degree. Btw, most Chinese in the Philippines migrated from Hokkien-speaking areas of China, not Cantonese.
      Ignore those weirdos who claim that Chamorros are from Filipinos, heck most actual Filipinos (the ones living in the Philippines) haven't heard of Chamorro people. These weirdos claiming that Chamorros owe their identity to Filipinos are probably Filipino-Americans who want to make themselves feel good.

    • @Lucifer-h7v
      @Lucifer-h7v Год назад

      ​@@guahunai3308i think it was fil am are offensive that not filipino who born in philippines!

  • @Rivan98
    @Rivan98 Год назад +1

    Hi i'm spanish speaker from Paraguay i was just interested in chamoru language and the history of spanish settlements in Asia and the Pacific then youtube brought me to your video. I think for me and for all spanish speakers is pretty obvious that chamorro is not spanish, so much that if you ask me I would tell you that I understand only 2 or 1 percent of your language maybe even least. Fun fact: did you know that Chamorro is a surname in the hispanic world? 😄
    Question: did you think that is good replace the spanish loandwords to the original chamoru words?
    For me it would be like delete the historical footprint of the contact of the spaniards with the chamoru people, even the own spanish language have arab loandwords for the contact between them over centuries I also think that over time you will also add English words to the Chamorro language because it's the dominant language in the region. For example in my country Guarani is our national language which is spread throughout our whole territory but it is very difficult to find people who speak the language purely, most of the population speaks it mixing them with words in Spanish thus forming the "jopara" which in Guarani literally means "mixture" which is almost like a new language.
    Sorry for my bad english i used google traductor isn't my first language 😅

  • @euonomous1
    @euonomous1 2 года назад +2

    One who speaks Spanish cannot understand Chamorru. No way. Conjugation will leave em in the dust

    • @pulanspeaks
      @pulanspeaks  2 года назад

      Exactly. So many conjugations for Spanish

  • @rhodium1096
    @rhodium1096 Год назад +1

    You can remove the Spanish word in the chamorro lenguage..but you cannot remove the Spanish character in the Guajan population...Viva la Fiesta amigos!

  • @guahunai3308
    @guahunai3308 3 года назад +1

    Thank you for the clarification on our language. Could you clarify the borrowed language of the phillipines and chamorro?

    • @pulanspeaks
      @pulanspeaks  3 года назад

      Buenas! Would kindly elaborate your question? Like are you asking to clarify how much CHamoru borrowed from Philippine languages?

    • @guahunai3308
      @guahunai3308 3 года назад

      @@pulanspeaks Many uneducated locals and foreigners are always claiming how the chamorro language came from the phillipines, since phillipines has a borrowed tongue as well shouldn't their speculation on our ancient tongue be wrong. Tagolue is a form of Chinese malay. Alot of borrowed languages from Acapulco Route, Ancient chamorro language was identified from old Indonesia Bahasa/Sulawesi. Chamorros do have some borrowed words from phillipines due to us being conquered by spain, mixing us together forcing us to communicate amongst each other for survival. Need clarification on differences between phillipines and chamorro. If we did come from phillipines what was this place called during our ancestral migration and what tribes or empire ruled phillipines during this time frame?

    • @guahunai3308
      @guahunai3308 3 года назад

      @@pulanspeaks I love ❤ how your educated in supporting our dying ancestral identification, language and whats been left behind for us nowadays realizing it slowly disappearing. Nobody is 100% blood anymore but to defend Guelo and Guela during the 1500's Phillipines got their identification from king phillip. Before spain, what were they called? Does Guelo and Guela come from the same tribe as theirs? This would be a good educational eye opener since we have been partners with filipinos for so long. It's almost like they are conquering us in a silent way. I remember as a kid most of Guam and Saipan had a clear feeling of home due to the whole island being ran by chamorros. Nowadays I feel like a stranger in my own home.

    • @guahunai3308
      @guahunai3308 3 года назад +2

      I believe Ancient Chamorros came from Indonesia then later mixed in with current day Filipinos during Acapulco route. Ancient Indonesian temple has carved images of our people and latte house. Language supports it also from UOG study from Netherlands. Migration theory is another reason Guelo and Guela came from this place .

    • @guahunai3308
      @guahunai3308 3 года назад

      @@pulanspeaks lol I'm still learning if I don't make sense
      .

  • @saipansoul
    @saipansoul Год назад

    It’s usually people that are either ignorant or have no basis other than prejudice that make comments about the language and the DNA. They think the modern Chamorro is a Spaniard.

  • @cancrew9774
    @cancrew9774 3 года назад

    we weren't allowed to be as we were, being dictated so many times during war periods, the language we speak is now to appease those in authority of the island. for example, our signs are mostly english, because we are now a US territory.

  • @dannyreidy712
    @dannyreidy712 4 года назад +1

    This should be empowering for Chamorros and provide an impetus to learn the language! It's another example of how colonialism can create a type of inferiority complex. It reminded me about discussions about race. For instance, "Latino" can include people of Spanish, Portuguese, Aztec, and African heritage from several countries. However, in the United States, we tend to view them as a monolithic group. It is unrealistic to assume languages would not evolve and become affected by other languages as populations became integrated over thousands of years. Is an Irishman in the 21st century less Irish because he does not speak "Old Irish?" I'd say no.

    • @ANTSEMUT1
      @ANTSEMUT1 4 года назад

      As a side note it is cool to still have records of the older stages of a language.

  • @nikgault4028
    @nikgault4028 2 года назад +1

    The only language spoken today without outside influence is probably what the sentinelese natives speak. To think any language is completely unaltered by extrinsic influence is nonsense

  • @SebastianCade
    @SebastianCade 3 года назад

    “Chamorro” is also a Spanish word. I disagree with this theory. But you still got my fellowship.

  • @rollindeesfeb2372
    @rollindeesfeb2372 3 года назад +1

    Very informative as usual. I always wondered BTW, did Guam and Philippines have any trade relations prior to Spanish colonization? I mean both are seafaring peoples and it seems logical that they would have some interactions with trade and culture before Europe entered the picture.

    • @guahunai3308
      @guahunai3308 3 года назад

      Sotta islan miyo gue ottro na kuentos. Manhita chelu gue korason lao sangi gue antes.

    • @guahunai3308
      @guahunai3308 3 года назад +2

      Bros only after Magellan arrived and gave your people your identity as phillipines. Before that Chamorro s were never a part of your peoples identity. Maybe sister and bros tribes. But that's for your history to fi g use out what your tribes were called before Magellan.

    • @ANTSEMUT1
      @ANTSEMUT1 2 года назад +1

      @@guahunai3308 there's suggestive evidence that they traded with Sulawesi and east Borneo infrequently before colonial times.

  • @adan_gregory
    @adan_gregory 3 года назад +3

    Fino' Chamorro i Fino' Chamorro ;-) Magåhet hao guenao na sentido. Lao hågu ha' i pumupuno' i fino' chamorro an sige ha' de mama'títinas hao video siha gi fino' íngles... ¿pues pot ké rasón na un deféfende i fino' chamorro ya i minagåhét-ña an un kuentútusi i man chamorro gi fino' íngles?
    Chamorro is Chamorro. You're totally right in that sense. But you're the only one murdering Chamorro if you keep making videos in English. So what would be your reason to defend the Chamorro authenticity talking about Chamorro if your audience would be Chamorros while speaking English?

    • @guahunai3308
      @guahunai3308 3 года назад +2

      Lol denanci hao chelu. Ti gof mauleg yu ni spelling gue finota lao adahi na para y tagolu sa man malagoniha pao claim si guelo yan guela ginen y Islas phillipines. Lache este sa hafa y na'an islan niha Antes de mattu si Magellan?

    • @pablolostum
      @pablolostum 2 года назад +3

      Hi, I am Spanish interested in the Chamorro language. I saw your comment and your username and I was wondering, how common are Spanish names/surnames in Chamorro people? It's a really interesting language. I could get a bit of the context of your comment by the Spanish words you used too, although I would say I understand less than 10% of what you say. Greetings

    • @adan_gregory
      @adan_gregory 2 года назад +1

      Recuerda que Guam/Guaján y el resto de las islas Marianas son islas muy aisladas y no tenían contacto constante con nadie...los hispanohablantes que llegaban a la isla fueron dominados e influenciados por los chamorros y visaversa pero en mi opinión fueron más influenciados que lo contrario... así que durante los casi 4 siglos, lo que procedía del español se ha pasado una mutación lingüística muy drástica y aunque muchas palabras chamorras que yo hablo son realmente del español, se les hace muy difícil para los hispanohablantes actuales para entender...

  • @mark-evans
    @mark-evans 3 года назад +1

    I think you should have backed up just a little bit, and first explained some examples where someone has argued that Chamoru is not a legitimate language. Cause to me, it seems like you're beating a dead horse here. I study many different languages, but the reason I have not put much effort into studying Chamoru isn't because it's not legit, it's because it's barely spoken anywhere. I mean even the majority of the population of each island speaks English or Tagalog, so that would be the thing that would make the language illegitimate, is the fact that not enough people are speaking it. Not because of some borrowed words.

    • @pulanspeaks
      @pulanspeaks  3 года назад +6

      Hey Mark, that's a great comment although I will say it's sort of misplaced as what your saying doesn't pertain to the thesis of the video. The purpose wasn't to get people to speak, study or want to learn CHamoru, although if does that will be great! The purpose was to deconstruct the ridiculous arguments that CHamorus and other people have in believing that the language is a mixed form Spanish or a creole. While it may seem like beating a dead caribou to linguists and people educated in languages such as yourself; it is necessary because as ridiculous as it is, so many CHamorus, even fluent speakers, sincerely believe the language is not a legitimate language due to the inclusion of some borrowed words. Seriously. Hence, the polemics. I'm very aware of the of the state of the CHamoru language and the factors contributing to the language shift, my graduate thesis was on CHamoru ethnolinguistic identity. But once again, that wasn't the purpose of this video. I hope you understand.

    • @guahunai3308
      @guahunai3308 3 года назад +2

      @@pulanspeaks Thank you for defending what we have left of our chamorro ancestors.. They always reference and have a need to add tagolue in our ancestral studies as if they had an identitybefore Spain as a whole people.

  • @rhodium1096
    @rhodium1096 Год назад

    Fino chamorro means in Spanish Accurate Chamorro..

  • @norbe6534
    @norbe6534 Год назад +1

    Bro, you should stop that kind of thinking.
    The Spanish sent like 10-15 people in the Pacific and the South East Asia.
    It was with the Mexicans who we share our history with till 18th century.
    For every Spanish and/or Mexican loanwords used, there is an equivalent to its Native language and retains it.
    An example of Spanish creole is the "Chavacano" which ironically, may sound and look similar to Chamorro.
    It was considered a Spanish creole but IS an Austronesian language.
    How did it happen? They use Spanish words but is Austronesian and not Indo-European?! Oh my God!
    Bahasa Melayu/Indonesia uses Austronesian words but is not Austronesian aligned but of Indo-European format?! Oh my God!
    From 18th century onwards it was your responsibility to preserve your own language.
    The Philippines is the longest hub of worldwide trade of Galleons back in the day, but you know what, their language is the most preserved language Austronesian language in all its branch. Even the Proto-Austronesian language is reconstructed based in Philippine Language and some in Malagasy/Taiwan/Borneo.
    So, how did they do it?
    How did they preserved the language?
    (Do not believe in White Lie or White's Lie)

  • @minim6981
    @minim6981 3 года назад +1

    Nah. Spanish speakers can barely understand anything of Chamorro. You have to go to the Philippines (Chavacano language) to find an actual Spanish creole. Spanish-speakers can understand most of it

    • @minim6981
      @minim6981 3 года назад

      @@fesab9780 yes but Chamorro changes the pronunciation of words a lot, so it’s difficult to understand. I don’t know if Spanish speakers would know what “pot fabot” means because it sounds so different from the original Spanish phrase

    • @TheSpectacledOwl
      @TheSpectacledOwl 3 года назад +2

      I disagree.
      I personally know one fluent Spanish speaker on Saipan who said he can understand what a Chamorro is saying based on the loan words used.

    • @sports671
      @sports671 3 года назад +1

      Mini M Your seem to be one sided! Get out of here... Un-intelligent.

    • @pablolostum
      @pablolostum 2 года назад +1

      @@minim6981 when it's written, it's easier to understand the loandwords, but after having heard spoken chamorro, I can confirm that most of it is unintelligible to me