No One's Buying the 787-10. Here's Why...
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- Опубликовано: 4 май 2024
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Chapters:
Intro - 0:00
787-10 Sales Issues - 2:29
Problem #1 - 4:11
Problem #2 - 6:35
787-10ER? - 8:12
Boeing's Improvement Plan - 9:50
Outro - 13:15
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The Boeing 787 has been an absolute smash hit. With over 1,700 ordered to date, it’s rocketed up sales charts and become the best-selling widebody of all time. But take a closer look at the 787 family, and you’ll find that not all things are equal. Specifically, the 787-10 hasn’t pulled its weight - trailing its dreamliner brethren by a pretty healthy margin.
Now, on the surface, this doesn’t really make any sense. After all, Boeing claims the -10 has the best per-seat operating costs of the entire 787 family. Plus, planes of this size are in high demand. So, what’s going on here? What’s leading to the anemic sales of the 787-10? Let me explain…
#boeing #787 #dreamliner 
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I use Factor as a crewmember... The dinners are great but the breakfasts are terrible.
There wasn't proper research put into this work.
The B787-10 isn't lacking in sales.
From EIS to date, the B787-10 has gained more orders than the B787-8. Sales of the B787-8 has been close to nothing since 2011. This was intentional by Boeing, preferring to sell the larger B787-9 than the smaller one.
Coming to the B787-10ER/HGW,
The B787-10 is MTOW limited and not fuel limited as perceived by media. The current B787-10 shares the same MTOW and fuel tank as the B787-9.
At 254t, the B787-10 will only be able to load up around 60-65t of fuel (at MZFW), that's about 35-40t less than max fuel.
It will be like 80-85t of fuel (to get Boeing brochure range of 11,910km), that's still 15-20t left.
Soo adding extra fuel tank just removes valuable cargo space for Airlines with out achieving anything.
The MTOW increase of 6t will only enable it fill existing tanks more.
Unlike the B787-10, it's less of an issue for the B787-9. At the same 6t increase, it should enable it carry the same payload for longer and/or carry even more payload for the same distance.
Adding more fuel tanks to anything doesn't always solve the issue.
The A321 has an almost identical issue with the B787-10 and Airbus has been able to experiment with different configurations to deliver 8,000km+ range.
NOTE: Airbus have been steadily increasing the MTOW and range of the A350 without adding any extra fuel tanks.
The increase is just to have more allowance for the existing tanks.
wait isnt factor literally hello fresh?
There wasn't proper research put into this work.
The B787-10 isn't lacking in sales.
From EIS to date, the B787-10 has gained more orders than the B787-8. Sales of the B787-8 has been close to nothing since 2011. This was intentional by Boeing, preferring to sell the larger B787-9 than the smaller one.
Coming to the B787-10ER/HGW,
The B787-10 is MTOW limited and not fuel limited as perceived by media. The current B787-10 shares the same MTOW and fuel tank as the B787-9.
At 254t, the B787-10 will only be able to load up around 60-65t of fuel (at MZFW), that's about 35-40t less than max fuel.
It will be like 80-85t of fuel (to get Boeing brochure range of 11,910km), that's still 15-20t left.
Soo adding extra fuel tank just removes valuable cargo space for Airlines with out achieving anything.
The MTOW increase of 6t will only enable it fill existing tanks more.
Unlike the B787-10, it's less of an issue for the B787-9. At the same 6t increase, it should enable it carry the same payload for longer and/or carry even more payload for the same distance.
Adding more fuel tanks to anything doesn't always solve the issue.
The A321 has an almost identical issue with the B787-10 and Airbus has been able to experiment with different configurations to deliver 8,000km+ range.
I'm definitely not buying one.
I am
yep, me too
I won’t unless they make a -10ER
let's be honest, who's gonna ?
I can on but one so long as it’s in 1:100 scale because that’s the only one I can afford
I think they are banking on the 777-8 to actually take longer ranges and larger capacity so that the dreamliner remains for relatively thin transpacific missions
Shrinks never work, I don't think it will this time either. The A350 will still be more efficient for this market segment, Boeing would have to make the -8 a lot cheaper than the A350-1000 for it to work, due to the reduction in capital acquisition costs. The 777-9 has a chance because it is larger than any A350 variant. Airbus has tried to shoehorn in 10 across to the -1000 to try to match it, but no airline has purchased the 10 abreast option.
My friend flies 787's. I hadn't realised that airlines are planning for 787 crew to fly the 777x as that's a better match. So basically they are treating the 777x as a 787 - meaning the 777x won't automatically be flown by existing 772/773 crew. So the 777x is becoming the 787-10, if that makes sense.
Was gonna say. Isn’t the 787-10 and the new 777 kinda overlapping in market share?? Seems like they serve the same purpose now that the engines are so efficient that long range is the norm
@@PixelVibe42what? That makes no sense. The 772/773 is the same type rating as the 777X. So those crews will fly both.
They kept the 787-10 that way to prop up and protect 777-8's market share. But alas I think Airbus has Boeing in checkmate as its shooting 2 birds with 1 stone which is the A350 😢
787 was originally made for medium capacity long haul category, it's a replacement for 767, which comes mainly in a330 type of service, I know it's not enough to slightly change it, but not many airlines even need to fly ultra longer routes, even Qantas, Singapore Airlines and Air New Zealand already bet on the 787 and bought dozens of it, i see that -10 little upgrade gonna be a smash hit for average carriers who don't need to fly ultra long
Qantas is using the 787 for Perth to London non stop flight but from 2026 will be using A350's
@@rod_at_adelaide5766 yeah but they have 14 787-9's and bought more 6 of the -9 and 6 of the -10 models, so in the bit shorter routes they're depending on lighter airframe of 787, also a350-1000ULR will be used mostly to Sydney as I heard
ok thanks for the info mate, where are they flying their 14 787-9's to? just curious@@abdelkadermehiz9407
Singapore Airlines** and they don't use the 787 for long haul flights. They use the A350, A380 and B777 just because they're more economical. They' have attempted to use the 787 for medium haul flights within Asia but they're selling their 787s to low-cost carriers, so safe to say it doesn't work out for full-service carriers.
@@etjh0071 yeah thank you, I know by the way yes, that is what I said read again, it's not for ultra long flights, only like a330 for some carriers they often use it for medium and sometimes for long haul, and average sized carriers like EgyptAir and Royal Air Maroc and Gulf Air use it as their long haul aircraft cuz they don't need to fly ultra long, so it's fitted to that type of service, how many times do i need to explain to someone in comments?!
Boeing’s balance sheet won’t allow an ER version. They have 737 issues galore, latest quarter shows it captured only 33% of single aisle sales - A320 had most the rest, some were A220. Many of their defense programs are late and under water (767 tanker, moon capsule, T7 trainer). 737 needs big attention, and a new middle market clean sheet design (updated 757) must be pursued like a banshee for Boeing to regain market share. Throw out the accountants, beef up quality and engineering. Production line not bottom line. no dividends, no buybacks.
The way the VP emphasises "minimal changes" to the structure and wheels lets me believe that accountants still habe the last say within Boeing...
@@PeterTrampusch. Minimal bolts as well, apparently!
Meanwhile the B-52 is an even older design than the 737 but I'm thinking how the former seems to be facing less constraints from its legacy design
Boeing deserves everything coming its way. for what it did too the Canadian CS-300 and i still dont know why canadian airlines are still buying boeing aircraft
Boeing needs to upgrade their entire upper management.
So let me see if I understand this. The 787-10 had the potential to be a powerful competitor to the A350 but penny-pinching bean counters wanted to save money so they denied it the ability to compete on an equal basis. Right? Because cutting corners to save money always works, right?
Don't tell that to the idiots pushing Boeing in the comments. They get offended.
The sales of the 787 far outpaces that of the A350 2 to 1!
@@burleystinnett9094 Sure. Until the fires start, and the cheap parts make them fall out of the sky. Obviously, you have no background in Engineering or Safety culture. 'merica!
@@burleystinnett9094 Blah, blah, blah. you sound like a Boeing executive, all sales, no safety.
They blew 50 billion on the jet. They will likely not recoup their investment. Modifying the wing adds another 10+ billion in costs to the program. The original sin was Boeing engineers not envisaging growth or shrink of the wing to meet different demands.
Thats really cool that you scored an interview with a Boeing VP! Congratulations, love seeing independent journalists grow and displace the cable-tv bobbleheads.
And low life so called content creators
Did he explain why they had the whistleblower killed?
The -10 is an excellent sub-12h jet (similar to the A330-300), and (as much of an Airbus fan I am), beats the A359 & matches the A35K on a per seat mile basis on an identical config setup for a 6-7 hour mission.
One big issue with the 78J is that on missions with decent pax & cargo, it refuses to trim the aircraft until the last 30T of fuel or so, thanks to its wing. So at high weights; it's constantly needing to decide to not trim, fly lower at higher airspeed, or fly at a high mach.
Airbus had foresight to play around with the chord of the wing structure without affecting commonality too much. This is shown in the A359 & A35K, and also between A330s & A340s (and trim tanks on them too). Boeing sunk 50 billion USD into a wing that has little accommodation for modification without decimating commonality and requiring a whole array of re-certification and $$$
Boeing needs to forget about getting a significant pricing premium of the 78J over the 789, and sell it how it's supposed to be sold; a medium haul jet for sub-5000nm flights right up against the A339 and A359R
Refuses to trim the aircraft until the last 30T of fuel? Sorry I've never heard about this, if you have time, do elaborate!
Best reply to this video. Boeing also needs to get their act together on the quality control issues.
Means zero, price is the factor
old boeing: quality and long-term thinking
new boeing: money and short-term thinking
So it would seem. Boeing has lost its advantage in the market through quality control and design issues, that reveal a different culture than used to characterise Boeing aircraft.
I think you might have missed one of the main issues of a larger fuselage and same wing. The wing loading is increased above the ideal drag values, making the wing ultimately less efficient. The 777-300 has this same issue.
266 orders out of 1909. I would hardly call that a failure. With the current rate of orders coming in & the number of planes being delivered. I doubt whether Boeing are worried.
Especially when you factor in the -8 came out 2011 and the dash 9 came out in 2014 where as the -10 didn't come out till 2018. When you look at it the -8 is the under performing bird.
@@deannelson9565 The 789 not only could fly more passengers but also didn't have much shorter range than the 788, but the latter probably already offers enough capacity for LCCs due to their higher-density seat layout e.g. Scoot's 788s seat 326 pax while ZipAir's ones seat 288 (the latter are second-hand from Japan Airlines I remember)
They like the practice of cost cutting and PROFITS OVER SAFETY
I concur
so that is why no one is buying the 787-10?
@@nickolliver3021 cause the 787 nightmare crackliner is a flop - cracking so badly LMFAAOOOOO a fail next to Airbus.
@@alvinloh9068 haha you sure are a stalker of mine. The a350 crackliner is a total flop cracking so badly 6 other airlines experienced the same issue LMFAOOO a fail of airbus for sure LMFAOOOO
@@nickolliver3021 Nobody stalks you and cause you're crying all over the internet, darling! Shame shame Nicky, Copying others like what you usually do best - a lapdog is the best you could ever do. Yeah, we've seen Nick Oliver, useless lapdog as always, with his triggered Boeing fanboyism crying, biting his fingers in this channel as the years go on. He won't even believe what Boeing issues they are experiencing (and it is apparent to the world OMFG when Boeing wings are cracking inside out, the fuselage and paints peeling off, collapsed landing gear, misaligned structures and most importantly, MCAS leading to two tragic crack incidents in aviation history. Logic, explosions, combustible... it doesn't matter Boeing, the trash ticks them all, and Nicky is all pro-Boeing and anti-Airbus. Anything he says is not worth even mentioning whatsoever! What a sad clown! No authority will believe a word Nicky says, as he's merely a public joke not worth mentioning staning for Boeing for no reason, probably a sad clunky 7-year-old white knight wannabe. Nicky, the sad Barbie, is here telling everyone Boeing is always the perfect one without any faults, well at least he is delusional enough to accuse whatever Boeing's downfalls, fallacies and debacles had something to do with Airbus due to his pitiful insecurity and enviousness on Airbus's continual successes. If the dogshit 737 max were going to crash tomorrow and the public wouldn't be surprised anyway, he would still think Boeing remains in good quality, yikes.
I’ve been on a 787-10 and it’s a solid and efficient people hauler. But limited range and long runway requirements are a minus. I wouldn’t call it a failure as it can still do a 12 hour flight. It probably won’t “take off” in sales until more 777-200/ER’s are retired.
But 777 are better replaced by A350 if the cargo demand and / or flight length is high enough. 787 is efficient but falls short on payload range.
True, but by then the 787J will be competing with the A359! So, only airlines the truly require it will buy it, otherwise they will go for the A359, like JAL did to replace their aging 777s.
This is a similar tale with the A330s replacement in the future, likely airlines will choose the 787 over the A330neo.
If the 787-10 is cheaper in development and operating cost but only lacks travel distance compared to the competition, that can actually be resolved easily as long as the operating cost is much lower than other aircrafts of the same passenger capacity by tweaking the system. I usually travel from MNL-LAX (also MLA-SFO alternatively) and back but I noticed on the return, we would usually take a short stop in Guam for refueling before continuing to MNL. (This was with the B-747 plane) The MNL-LAX route did not need refueling and so it was a direct flight but after some research I found out it was due to the help of the eastern jet stream phenomenon as it helped boost the flight from a strong tailwind, but not so on the reverse flight as planes fly against the stream. Only once did we have a direct flight from LAX-MNL and it was found to be due to the flight being only about half full or so, thereby lighter in weight. So the tweak here is just to incur more refueling stops (no need for passenger offloading).
However one issue which was not covered extensively of why sales of this model was not going well is probably due to Boeing's credibility which has faltered lately, in lieu of the many defects of their planes encountered and also crashes partly due to their erroneous design/poor computer programming, etc.
9:14 its not about reinforcement of the struts and gear assembly. Its about tire area... distribution of that weight among more tires spread it out over a larger area.
The limit is tires. Not the gear.
It’s the gear. 🤦🏻♂️
I don't know what weight margin if any there might be in the struts (the long-lead item when upgrading gear components), but "footprint" often becomes a problem when an airframer looks to go higher and higher on MTOW. Regardless of how strong the gear structure and tires are, a pavement can only take so much. It won't fail outright, but accumulates fatigue damage and so limits are placed on the stress an airliner gear can impose. Those limits aren't as simple as just tire pressure/load, but that's a decent proxy for what's involved.
A great example was the DC-10 vs the L-1011. The 10 was designed from the beginning to eventually take a dual center main landing gear, while the 1011 was not. Douglas sold plenty of long-range 10s as a result, while Lockheed was stuck with shortening the fuselage + jacking up tire pressure (of tires with more capacity than the standard 1011 one) to the most that airport authorities would allow. It still wasn't competitive with the DC-10-30 for long high-density routes, but at least it gave them a product to offer for that segment.
The longer the aircraft the higher the risk of tailstrike too when taking off, without a landing gear redesign
It`s always funny if a non expert is talking about airplanes.
Issue is usually not fuel capacity but MTOW. It`s also not about range that much, but about payload - range and in field performance.
The Ten might be one of these planes that just got a little stretched too far, thus it has excellent economics.
Still, airlines find great use for it. SIA uses their Tens for inner Asia missions with great success, flying high demand missions with a large economy class.
United flys theirs across the Atlantic, great plane for these 6-8 hour missions if you don`t need to carry much cargo.
Qantas will use the Ten to fly their routes to Asia.
Etihad has great use for their plane, having multiple favorable missions to Europe that are ideal for the Ten, despite having hot & high issues.
The competition the Ten faces is underrated. Her smaller sibling is a strong competitor that can fly almost every thinkable route and is perfectly sized as the 250-280 Pax plane.
The A359 is the same size and delivers a stronger performance with more capabilities. It has sold 1000 units and is a fantastic plane. People underestimate how good A359 and B789 work for airlines.
And, a bit forgotten, if you need a WB for shorter routes, the A339 can come cheap and is available.
Also, don`t forget that many orders still can be changed. As air travel grows over time and airlines need more capacity, with many families orders shifted to the stretched versions.
Overall, i don`t think the Ten is doing bad. It`s a great airplane if you need to fly above 300 pax on 4-8h missions and there are plenty of routes out there. A little bit more wing, a little bit more thrust, a little bit more range, and you have made an already attractive airplane even better.
The 787-9 replaced a significant number of 777-200 and 777-200ERs as the cabin lengths are almost identical so it was a "plug-in replacement" for many airlines. There are a not-insignificant number of 777-300ERs in operation today that are used for their capacity, not their range, and I believe the 787-10 should sell fairly well into that market as it is lighter than the A350-1000 and much lighter than the 777X.
Depending on payload requirement. A350-900 can carry 10t more payload than 787-10 beyond 5000nm, or fly 1300nm further with the same payload. It is slightly smaller than 787-10 and more expensive, but the payload-range advantage is enough to pay off on longer routes.
I know United replaced their 200ERs with the 787-9s on the Sydney - Los Angeles & Sydney - San Francisco routes. Heck, even United fly from the major Australian east coast cities to Los Angeles & San Francisco using the 787-9s!
@@andrewyoung3299 For some airlines 787 may work, but still doesn't change the fact that A350 is the better lifter.
On SIN-SFO for example United often has to block 1-2 rows of seats on its 257-seat 789s in winter, while SIA's 253-seat 359 can always with all seats filled plus some cargo. On SIN-LAX United decided the payload restriction is too severe for 789 to be profitable, while SIA flies up to twice daily with the same 253 seat 359.
B787-10 competes with the A350-900 in terms of capacity. A350-1000 competes with the B777-300ER. The B787-10 is better suited for dense routes under 7-8 hours for its lower weight but loses out on flexibility and range of the A350-900, which can also be reconfigured as ultra long range (ULR).
Say what @kiskaloo? I can't see the 7810 replacing the 77W on that many routes. These will mostly go A350-1000 unless Boeing pulls a rabbit out of it's hat on the 777X efficiency.
Just wanna say that I absolutely love your videos! I'm not in the aviation industry at all, but I've always been an aviation fan, and you're videos really provides a great window. Thanks so much for making these videos!
My country flag carrier Vietnam airline currently has 4 78X in their fleet and plan to receive 2 more this year. However they only use 78X for domestic and some 5 hrs flight to north east asia
12:23 when you showed the picture of the Boeing door, I was expecting it to explode off the plane.. like usual
... it sounds good to say an ER version of the v10 would be a transpacific plane. However, the most profitable routes in the world are transatlantic, for which the current range of v10 is fine. And the 787 does a great job at replacing the aging 767s. Airlines like United and Air Canada need twin aisle planes to service both profitable heavy routes within North America, and transatlantic at the same time. At the moment, v9 and 300ERS work for transpacific just fine.
... What Boeing needs to "fix" is getting the 777X out the door.
Even 789 fall short in payload when compares to 772, while A350 is actually slightly better than similar sized 777s. Therefore many airlines in Asia, especially with strong cargo demand, prefer A350 over 787 as their workhorse. Cathay for example has zero 787s, while in SIA 787 are exclusively regional. It doesn't mean 787 is bad, but it's better suit for lightly loaded flights.
btw Asian carriers are more willing to invest in new aircraft, as the routes are more demanding, fuel saving is more significant, while competition is fierce. For example, majority of early 77Ws delivered before 2010 are to Asian or Middle East carriers, while 744 has largely faded out from their Transpacific fleets in the 2010s. 20 years is considered old here.
...You make a very good point. Cargo capacity (and ease of loading and unloading) is more important in Asia than elsewhere. In North America, it is all about the business traveler. tourists demand such low fares, they get what they get, and they complain but won't pay more.
...However with freight, Boeing has to get the 777X out the door. It is the future for freight and long haul PAX travel. Thus the Emirates 777X order.
... On fleet age, you are correct. But I would like to note the large outstanding orders by North American carriers. Both for twin and single aisle planes. The age problem was really a corporate merger problem, and that is finally being sorted out.@@steinwaldmadchen
@@christopherjared1277 I doubt 777X still have the cargo advantage right now. 777-9 is still physically bigger, but its higher MTOW is not enough to compensate its much higher OEW, let alone fuel burn. 777X's delay has given Airbus plenty of time to improve its offerings.
I don't think TATL operators have the urge to replace aircraft that often. After all, LAX-SVO is a mere 12h flights, while for the same time you can't reach anywhere beyond PVG from YVR. In fact for shorter TATL routes often it's cheaper to fly A330CEO and burn more fuel than buying any new aircraft, A330NEO included.
... I was thinking that the majority of volume for Asian airfreight was within Asia, no? Moving around parts and pieces towards final assembly? If that is the case, the MTOW would not come into play, not that much fuel is needed. ... Regarding aircraft age. United Airlines has orders for 150 x 787s, plus options for another 100. Before covid, Air Canada had initiated a merger with Air Transat, thus to put the fleets together, it made sense for AC to purchase used A330s from SIA. But that merger is off, and AC is instead seeking fleet commonality, and recently ordered 20 of v10s. Both United and Air Canada will be flying all variants of 787.@@steinwaldmadchen
@@christopherjared1277 A lot of them are TPAC, for example Cathay Pacific used to ship quite a lot of iPhones from CGO to US via its HKG hub. Remember Asia has been the manufacturing powerhouse.
While N. American carriers do make big orders, they have some really old fleet to be replaced. United for example has 763s and 772s at 28 and 24.2 years on average respectively, which both are even less efficient than A330CEO. For reference JAL's 77Ws are already at the way out, despite the oldest is barely at 20.8 years. ME3 and SIA are famous for ditching aircraft early as well.
Flight length determinds how significant the fuel savings can outweight acqusition cost.
With the sentiment regarding Boeing build quality at the moment I think Airbus needs to think about doubling the the A350 production schedule! I'm flying JAL 787 8/9 SYD to LHR in May and looking forward to my first flight on the 787.
Airbus is now planning to bring the A350 program build from an average of five aircraft per month in 2022, to nine in 2025, an 80% increase. Even the relatively slow-selling A330neo will see growth from three aircraft per month to 4
Your first flight on any BOEING commercial aircraft...might just be your last!!! When the people who build the airplane say, in no uncertain terms, they wouldn't dare fly on one of those planes...that ought to tell you something!!
Airlines that have committed to the A350 will not introduce 787-10s to their fleet
Also, why did Boeing build 787-10 to compete with the A350-900, instead of building a smaller 777-7X to compete with the A350-900, since the 777 has more range than the 787-10? They could've use the 777-200 airframe to create an even smaller 777X, the -7?
True, but the aluminum would have faced stiff competition against the plastic. The same goes for the A330-neo against 787. No competition.
Shrinks have poor economics. A 777-7 would be far heavier than an A350-900 and burn more fuel because of it. It is why Airbus cancelled the A350-800 shrink and instead updated the A330 family with new engines.
Why didn't Boeing upgrade the 757 with new wings and more efficient engines, new interior etc. etc call it the 757 Max to compete with the A321 neo? Why? Because it's run by idiots.
I believe a smaller 777X will not be as cost efficient in operations as an a350-900 or 787-10 would be and it probably wouldn’t have had enough sales numbers to justify creating the variant. Although the 777X would have a higher MTOW rating and have engines powerful enough for places with high altitude airports or hot desert climate like the middle-east.
That would be cool, but the 777-8X already suffers from airframe optimization problem (wing & engine being too big). Also, it would give Airbus an even longer headstart. The 777-7X would take even longer to enter the market, and by that time, the A350 would already take over the market (787-10's problem, but way worse).
Do we get a why the A350 1 isn't selling as well??
Considering they both sold almost exactly the same numbers, around 270 each.
I've already covered this in other videos, so might not warrant its own breakdown. But long story short, the -300ER is still a fairly young family and most airlines aren't ready to retire them (yet). That should start changing in the very near term - EVA, JAL, even Emirates are all now looking at the plane as a replacement for the 777
@cobyexplanes👌
@@cobyexplanes -- Japan Airlines just started putting the A350 as a 777 replacement into service. The delay was caused by product supply chains. JAL is now going in heavy on Airbus, when its A350 order was its first ever Airbus order.
@@AEMoreira81 Yup I read that JAL was traditionally a loyal Boeing customer (like ANA) as quite a number of Boeing's suppliers are Japanese too e.g. lithium-ion batteries by GS Yuaza, fueslage & wings by Mitsubishi & Kawasaki
3:04 Id like to note that united plans on keeping those planes for another 5-7 years despite already being about 30 years old.
Can't say that -10 is a failure. A330neo is supposed to be the 787 competitor not the A350.
The -10 alone is outselling 330neo series
Either you’re a big Boeing fan or ignorant. The A330neo competes with the B787-8 and -9. There was no -10 when the neo program was made. How can it compete with a non existent plane?
@@zoutezoen so how can the dash 10 compete head to head with the 350? cause they aren't the same. the 777 and 350 are competitors. duh
@@edluv84 do the math
@@zoutezoen no, you do the math. apples vs oranges.
Thanks so much for creating and sharing this informative and timely video. Great job. Keep it up.
It's worth noting that the JFK-AKL route for the 787 has been plagued with problems. A strong headwind is all that's needed to force AirNZ to need a fuel stop halfway across the Pacific.
Eventually, there will be a Code C plane with only 227 seats. Qantas flies the same route with a 236-seat B789.
If it's BOEING, i'm not GOEING!
It seems that Boeing’s Management Team sucks and it prides itself on making ALL THE WRONG DECISIONS (reason #4) and while this is going on their credibility with their customers and potential customers keeps on eroding (reason #5 and perhaps the most important).
But they're really good at DEI hiring!
@@RealGaryGibson😂😂😂 but at least now you’ll be flying on a “moral high ground” built aircraft
@@flyontop What has the fact that the 787-10 isnt getting orders got to do with Boeings management team sucks? their credibility with customers and potential customers is not eroding! The 787 program is doing really well now
If the 737 program or the quality of the later 747-8 models vs the 400 or the Air Force’s 76 Frankentanken fiasco, or perhaps the CTK joke of a program that Boeing has with the tools left inside aircraft then I really don’t know. But if you feel that they are doing great it is your opinion. Only on future sales is where we will get the real answers. Let’s start by asking United.
Adding a moderate amount of range helped the A330ceo sales, I believe the final version of the A330-200 had around 7200nmi still air range, whereas the initial release was closer to 6400nmi, just going by memory here. Similarly the A333 saw more transatlantic action afer it's range/MTOW increases.
For the 787-10 getting to 7000nmi in the brochure without major structural changes would be big. You mentioned the wing capacity, but with the longer body it doesn't even have the MTOW to fill the tanks at max weight now. Acccording to my off the cuff calculations, an extra 8.5T (17000lbs) of MTOW will get it there. It would still be 21.5T less than the A359 at this weight, approximately 577,000lbs MTOW for this IGW variant.
While it helps the situation won't be much different.
A330-300 is significantly more efficient than both 777-200, A330-200 and A340-300, that despite its shortcomings, it can still undercut them all.
Meanwhile 787-10 and A350-900 have very similar trip costs, and the unit cost difference is really down to 787-10's bigger size. Many airlines would prefer the flexibility of A350-900 over the slight efficiency gain with 787-10.
There wasn't proper research put into this work.
The B787-10 isn't lacking in sales.
From EIS to date, the B787-10 has gained more orders than the B787-8. Sales of the B787-8 has been close to nothing since 2011. This was intentional by Boeing, preferring to sell the larger B787-9 than the smaller one.
Coming to the B787-10ER/HGW,
The B787-10 is MTOW limited and not fuel limited as perceived by media. The current B787-10 shares the same MTOW and fuel tank as the B787-9.
At 254t, the B787-10 will only be able to load up around 60-65t of fuel (at MZFW), that's about 35-40t less than max fuel.
It will be like 80-85t of fuel (to get Boeing brochure range of 11,910km), that's still 15-20t left.
Soo adding extra fuel tank just removes valuable cargo space for Airlines with out achieving anything.
The MTOW increase of 6t will only enable it fill existing tanks more.
Unlike the B787-10, it's less of an issue for the B787-9. At the same 6t increase, it should enable it carry the same payload for longer and/or carry even more payload for the same distance.
Adding more fuel tanks to anything doesn't always solve the issue.
The A321 has an almost identical issue with the B787-10 and Airbus has been able to experiment with different configurations to deliver 8,000km+ range.
NOTE: Airbus have been steadily increasing the MTOW and range of the A350 without adding any extra fuel tanks.
The increase is just to have more allowance for the existing tanks.
This is the actual reason. Better analysis on the situation.
There is already a 787-10ER, it is call 777X, the 350 never was a competition for the 787, it was for the 777, in fact airbus is working on an airplane to compete in that specific segmen.
For a long time coming that 777X you’re referring to, the 777-8 only exists on paper, with a big question mark will it ever materialize
I live in the Caribbean where we see the 777-200 from British Airways know those birds have some age on them and they will eventually retire them but I always wondered what will they send in place.
brings back memories of flying to antigua on a 744 with virgin atlantic. Seems like its a a333 doing that job now.
It sounds to me like the markets segment for a -10 sized variant, that can fly the longer ranges is relatively tiny.
And the Boeing proposals to create a longer range version via the basic changes mentioned by Hulst, would address most of that need.
There simply isn't a worthwhile addressable market to justify a major revision to the aircraft.
Its kinda amazing the size difference between the /8 and /10
yeah fr
Once the 777 and A330 replacement cycle gets into full swing the 787-10 is going to do great. It’s just not its time yet.
No, it’s too little too late imo.
A330 neo laughing on the sidelines.Thought it was the closest competitor to the -10..😊
SRT is correct here👍 787 as a replacement for 767, which directly competes with the Airbus A330 classes. That’s the real money comparison.
A330neo is the closest conpetitor to the B787-8 and B787-8. However, they’re just too slight conpetitors
I flew the 787-10 couple months ago to Tokyo. Great plane!
For a step child variant, 258 orders actually seems pretty good. The 787-10 is doing better than most. Usually, the step child variant is an aircraft line doesn't get more than 60 orders.
I love how the dog just comes up and, like, can I get one, please😊.
Please don't encourage Boeing to slap together a quick fix design to compete with Airbus. We know how that story ends.
What quick fix are you thinking of to slap together to compete with airbus?
@@nickolliver3021 I don't know, if they can't fit the extra gas in the wings, maybe they could squeeze it into the tail and secretly install Super-MCAS to rebalance the jet.
@@ressljs the 787 doesn't need mcas at all! Are you insane or just trying to make stuff up because the 737 has mcas?
@@nickolliver3021 I thought it would have been clear my last post was a joke. I was proposing the most absurd way they could try to fit more fuel onto the jet.
@@ressljs I can't tell a joke from a comment on RUclips
On December 2023, I flew on Saudia Boeing 787-10 from Jeddah to Kuala Lumpur. When I was in B787-10, it was my nightmare bcuz it's cabin was quiet smaller than other wide body aircraft and when I tried to sleep it was impossible bcuz it small and I can only sleep less than 2 hours and when I see your video I now knew B787-10 14% smaller than b777-200. Maybe later when I go on the same route I choose Malaysia airlines 😅 (BTW thank you for you information about B787-10)
Qantas is using the 787-10 to replace their A330ceo , for medium hall routes. Although they have ordered A350-1000 for project sunrise and naturally one might have assumed that the A330neo would be a good replacement for their A330ceo and to have cockpit commonality with the A350. Singapore has both the A350-900 and the 787-10, they tend to use the A350-900s on longer routes and the 787-10 on shorter routes.
The 787 is a great aircraft, and better than the A350 in several ways. However, we must remember that the 787 is not the direct competitor for the A350. Boeing is betting that the 777x will be the number one selling aircraft for their wide-body jets.
No they are not betting that at all. would be an unrealistic goal given its size
1700 total 787 sales...!!! Hmm 🤔.
Last i checked ,was well over 1900 .
Haha I wrote this script a few months back then Boeing went out and killed it at the Dubai Airshow. My bad
@@cobyexplanesnahhh.!!
The issues raised are really important to think about!
But the point is that Boeing are not willing to make the 787-10 a 777 competitor. Or at least is still a dilemma if they want to fill the sales gap to the A350-1000…
AIR BUS IS THAT FRIEND WHO IS ALWAYS PREPARED FOR THE EXAM, BOEING IS THAT FRIEND WHO ALWAYS TRIES TO CATCH UP AT THE LAST MINUTE , SOMETIMES DOES A GREAT JOB THUMBS UP THOUGH
Boeing’s entire commercial aviation division is a failure. Instead of building great products, they became a bank and their product line will fade into the sunset
The 787-10 is more of a 777-200 NON-ER Replacement than the 777-200ER.
The problem with Boeing is they’re more worried about quantity than quality and making their planes cheaper, and Airbus on the other hand makes sure they’re building top quality stuff, which is why they’re winning.
If you're an airline buying planes, you often buy them for the future.
Not certainly knowing what routes will be populair in 10-20 years but having the option of serving longer routes if there is demand will therefore be a strong plus for the Airbus.
*they should make a 787-10ER*
He covered that in a separate video
Reports were a couple years ago that they were making a -9LR and a -10ER. The -9 would of had the same range as the A350XLR
@@kylecampbell1444 Do note that 359's MTOW has already grown from 275t in 2014 to 283t right now (which is more than the 6t gain of 787 IGW0, as well as having a much more long haul optimised design. It would be good enough for many airlines, but not taking away the crown from A350.
Boeing Commercial doesn't have the money or time to work a Boeing 787-10ER dues to the the B737MAX fiasco. By the time Boeing does work on -10ER variant, Airbus will have the A350-1000lr version being develop from the A350-1000 'extend range' as purchase by Qantas for Project Sunrise.
Anyone who started watching him now it's an everyday thing?
in theory, two planes with equal passenger floor space/capacity differing in max range, the one with lower range should also have lower empty weight. even though it cannot handle the longer route, a lower weight should mean better economics for intermediate range.
but in actuality, the 787-10 and A350-900 have similar OEW. so perhaps Boeing goofed on 787-10.
Boeing also goofed on 777-X because the metal fuselage is heavier than the all composite 350. Meaning it is neither optimized for ultra long range or best intermediate fuel economy.
They went with metal because it's too expensive to make a body of that size all composite. As a plane being marketed for a 747 replacement, I doubt they could make it work. Efficiency for its size it would've been, but airlines like cheaper aircraft.
interesting that the modifications of the 787-10 is to bring it in line with the 777-200ER but it does smack of sticking a plaster on an open wound, but given that Boeing will be investment constrained for a while then I think that they are playing the bet hand they can.
Oh well, the 787-10 didn't sell better than the A350-1000?
… while A350-1000 is reaping its renaissance season.
This enhance 787-10 its more like a HGW variant than an ER version.
Yeah, and it will be interesting to see how airlines replace their 777-ERs in the coming years. That's when the A350-1000 sales might really take off.
@@mandandi Yeah many of the 777-300's out there still young so no doubt the A350-1000 sales will pick up when retirement of those 777-300 begins.
@@ivanviera4773 XD!!! having vocations of a messiah coming to earth makes le laugh. Looks like the Airbus Fanboys don't know that more 787-10s have been sold than A350-1000s. As for the 777-9 with 450 sales,
You are pathetic but funny!
5:27 is no one talking about that transition between the 777 & a350? 😮
Part of the problem is all the different models, they need to bang out one before they start another, when you jump around, it creates a lot of problems we have seen 😊
787-10 of Saudia is a great success serving medium range destination from Jeddah to far east to Africa,it carries more passenger at lesser fuel cost than any plane.
"Sort out some production issues" is an entire euphemism. Truth is the 787 was never designed to reach the 787-10 version in any optimized fashion, thus it falls by the wayside. In the meantime Boeing continues tweaking bad designs. The 737 MAX? Murder machine. The 777X? Vaporware. Boeing thinks itself smart. A smart Boeing would have continued to develop airplanes instead.
Wile you never question Techno Jesus’s vaporware.
"737 MAX? Murder machine" At a rate of one crash per 900,000+ flights, not a very efficient one.
I refuse to buy one, even though I’ve been spammed with special discounts, sidewalk sales, and factory blowouts, I must say no
I flew the -10 from Tokyo-Bangkok.... loved that business class seat...
This is up to each airline what they put inside, not a manufacturer.
Well, the issue is the range of only 6,400 nautical miles. But even then, 6,400 nautical miles is enough to fly from London-Heathrow to the US West Coast and most of eastern Asia. That's why I expect British Airways to seriously look at a large 787-10 buy to replace their aging 777-200ER planes in competition with the A350-900. I expect United to do the same to replace their aging 777-200/777-200ER fleet.
Most airlines now would avoid Russian airspace, and that adds 2-3h to Asia - Europe flying. Even for A350 operators like Finnair they need higher MTOW variants to consistently fly those routes.
@@steinwaldmadchen I think the 787-10 in British Airways service will fly primarily to North America, Africa and the MIddle East. Flying to the Far East will require something like the 777-200ER at minimum, and that's why I think BA is looking at a 25-plane A350-900 buy.
The 787-10 is a pleasure to fly in, it has the best characteristics of the line.
I love the 787.
so the a350-1000 has 5 more orders then the 787-10 what’s your point again, you don’t like boeing aircraft I get it 😮, but then again there are 453 777x orders so why don’t you say you airlines really don’t like the A350-1000
Those two aren’t direct competitors, the A350-1000 was developed to compete and replace the 777-300ER. Can’t compare your example.
@@TJEyre I agree you cannot compare the two aircraft A350-1000. but airbus made this one aircraft to compete with two different aircraft types and that’s a fact
1 major factor is not being addressed (again). How much market will a redesigned 787-10ER capture for appr. 1000 more nmi in range? And how much would that cost
A 787-10ER would need better engines, a new wing, better landing gear and redesigned fuel tanks to compete with the A350-900.
Modifications that are not cheap.
It seems like they can squeeze 6t higher MTOW, and translate into a 400-ish nm range increase. That's it.
@@steinwaldmadchen Yeah it seems like an ER version would need more substantial modifications. With the HGW versions it looks like they are increasing fuel capacity of the existing tanks since they did not fill it up to the max.
@@ivanviera4773 787 is limited by its MTOW. As it roughly burns around 5.4~5.8t/h of fuel, 6t can at best translate into 1 hour further.
A350 can significantly outperforms 787 because it has a sigificantly higher wing area and MTOW, while its gears are designed to spread the load better. But those are too much for -9, the best selling variant of 787.
@@ivanviera4773 787 is weight limited. It burns 5.4~5.8t/h, so 6t increase translate to at most 1h flight time.
Of course with more substantial changes it can go further, but that would be overkill for smaller variants. An excess aircraft is not efficient, A350-800 or MAX7 are good examples.
I like the A350 and 787 by its nose, cockpit's windows design. This design makes the plane look smaller than actual size itself.
As a pilot, that only thing I can say is?
Oy vey /dios mio Boeing. Who dropped the ball?
Competitive, customer needs, and customer desires research are something one learns in Marketing 101.
here i am hoping the 787-10 will succeed soon
I am suspicious about this claim. Boeing is gaining orders gradually, and I believe this keep growing. For example, UA can fly from Tokyo to Chicago with this aircraft.
The title is misleading as of today a total of 266 B787-10 are either delivered or been ordered.
At least it's selling better then the A330neo. So it could be worse.
My thoughts exactly. If he thinks that the 787-10 isn't selling, he should check out the A330-800.
@@globetrotter7778 He already discussed before why A330NEO is not selling, and why Airbus still decided to go ahead.
@@globetrotter7778lol😂😂
I’d still buy one! I love the 787-10 the most beautiful variant although I still think the 777-8 will do a great job replacing the 777-300ER & maybe Boeing should even downsize to a 777-7 to replace the 777-200ER truly! 😊
A350-1000 can basically do almost all 777-8 can do at a significantly better trip cost, while 777-9 can carry more than -8 with minimal extra cost.
777-8 as a passenger plane is dead on arrival.
Its basicly a perfect intra-asia/pacific flight.
But I must say I saw more a350-900 doing this from changi last year
Great Video and footage, keep it up!!
If redesigning a relatively isolated mechanical system like the landing gear is too complex a challenge for Boeing, it really does make me wonder about their design processes.
That's likely not the issue, but rather the maximum weight pavements can be subjected to for the given number of tires. Pavements fail in fatigue the same as metal does, so there are limits imposed.
Fuel capacity is the same as -9, so that’s not the problem. The problem is the similar takeoff weight, so for more payload with more Pax and cargo with a longer fuselage means less fuel Carried. Boeing doesn’t need really to change much. With the new generation Ultrafan engine being around 20% more efficient, this means 20% increased range which will boost range to be on par with 777-300er.
Damn I was about to buy one. Thanks for the heads up, will buy the A350-900.
3- People afraid of boeing.
The 787-10 is rare. Chicago O'Hare says what. 😄
Great video. Air NZ have ordered the 787 10 ER. As a shareholder, I'm concerned that will still fall short of range for a lot of our routes. The 787 9 has been struggling to make Auckland- NYC non stop. The management at Air NZ are overly obsessed with 'fleet commonality ' as opposed to actually purchasing the 'correct' airplane for our long haul- which happens to be the opposition. 787 will never match the overall range potential of the A350 900/1000.
A useful analysis. We will be on a British Airways 781 at the end of May.
Lose the base line in the background. Pretty annoying
I bet you complain about the noise of a car passing by your house
I cant pull my weight either 😢
I think its still a win for boeing. I mean 787 never mean to be A350 rival in the first place but 787-10 plus improvement in MTOW is enough to steal some A350 market while 777X will tackel the rest. And 787-10 case is not as bad as A330 Neo program, both in development cost and actual sales.
I find it funny why an airplane manufacturer in a duopoly needs a marketing department.
Like, they don’t need to go on social media or pay billboards, it’s just calling airline executives…assuming they’re not the ones getting called for planes
But then who would come up with taglines we could mock later? Because at this point, if it’s Boeing, I ain’t going.
Cant wait till the new a320-1000x
I would buy the a35k
there are only 900 and 100 variants of the a350
@@reazyy9667 A35K is the ICAO code for A350-1000
I flew on the British Airways 787-10 from Newark to Heathrow last November. It was my first time on a 787 and I loved it. Plus, it’s reminiscent of the 767-400 which is one of my favorite aircraft. However, I understand the poor economics and diminished range compared to other 787 variants.
COBY IS SO NEGATIVE. The787-10 is not a failure! It is a little early to say that the 787-10 is a failure. This coming from an Airbus fan.
still much better than 339🙃
After flying on Virgin's A330-900neo, I disagree with you. The 2-4-2 and the quieter cabin gets my vote over the 787.
I read up on the 787.10. Seems it has the range to fly from LAX or SAN to Western and Central Europe as well as SYD, AKL, HND, NRT, BNE, and HKG.
It is incorrect to say that 787-10 is range limited because if cannot take more fuel. That is not the case. It has exactly the same wings and tanks as 797-9, which flies considerably farther. And just a bit more fuel capacity than 787-8. Problem here is that 8 has an OEW of 120 tons, 9 has 129 tons and 10 has 135 tons. Then 10 carries 40 more pax or 4 tons, and 787-9 has a MTOW of 254.7 tons vs only 250 tons for 10. In the industry we say it is MTOW limited. Both 9 and 10 carry up to 101.4 tons of fuel, so with no cargo both can travel for some 20 hours or 9,000NM. This is known as ferry range. The problem in increasing MTOW is twofold: on the one hand the twin axles are already almost at the limit of their weight carrying capacity, for they already exert a very high pressure on runways, close to the limit in many airports. Introducing a triple axis would require extensive engineering and cost. Bigger wells would have to be introduced. Secondly, as the author correctly indicates the wings are already smallish for 10. This results in poor field performance (they need longer runways and in hot and/or high airports it becomes payload limited). Plus the fact that on departure the engines have to be cranked to the very limit, increasing maintenance costs and reducing engine life. Before anybody asks, new bigger wings is positively out of the question for reason of cost.
But I disagree with the author that 787-10 and A350-900 have similar fuel consumption. Boeing's has a thinner fuselage, hence less wetted area, therefore less friction. It may be 3% more fuel efficient that A350-900, which to some it may look as trivial. Far from it. For missions up to 5,500NM 787-10 is a better option at parity of other conditions. not mentioned is that it 787-10 carries 40 LD3 containers, and A350-900 36, hence on shorter trips it will take more cargo. For longer routes, Airbus is better. Some big airlines, such as Singapore or KLM can afford to use both types. To each, its own.
The Airbus 350 is a sweeter ride than this
Boeing: $$$ > Safety
Airbus: Safety > $$$
Boeing should make an NPS variant much like what airbus did with the a350s with the 787-9/10. The 787-8 has a great range for its size, the 787-9 has a fantastic range, the 787-10 is primarily designed to fly 8-12 hours routes.
It’s been pretty clear from the beginning that the 787-9 is the ‘optimized’ version of the Dreamliner. While the -10 may fall a little short on range compared to the A350, it shares most parts, and pilots with the other 787s, and that is what really makes it make sense. It’s basically free extra sales for Boeing without much extra input.
This is easily the most grating voice I've ever heard.
OMG 100% agree.