I had to smile about the engineer comment. I was that engineer who couldn't understand the machine shop constantly asking if I really wanted it that size? It was during a previous life when I was designing wire and slick line equipment here in Aberdeen Scotland. Admittedly it was half a lifetime ago so I think I may have learned a bit since that time. Thanks for the pointer from the machinists point of view - and the memory.
I've contributed to the final part from both the shop floor and the keyboard, so I feel qualified to make that comment. CNC machines are a different animal, but manual machinists need tips like this to keep them sane. I also taught a course on design for manufacturability to University of Texas engineering students. I was amazed at what they didn't know. So were they. It always went very well. Thanks for the comment.
I love this one Joe! The way you break things down helps so much. I find I was over thinking this issue and your explanation on the board and then in the shop got me on track. God Bless you bud. I agree with the vast majority of your subscribers that your an excellent teacher and I feel personally blessed to have found you. I'm 46 starting again since being disabled and you truly inspire me. The classes I'm taking plus all the other videos have left me more confused. I understand you better than anyone and I really thank you for what your doing. I'm proud to call you one of my instructors. Tim Ditmore Matrix Gunsmithing Lake George, CO.
I'm an engineer and this is why engineering students need to spend all their free time in the machine shop. That 44 minutes on the degree just cost the company 20 minutes in additional set up time, and potentially a lot of scrap for less capable machinists. My other pet peeve is engineers tolerancing everything to +/- .001" because they can't / won't do a tolerance study or don't understand fitments. I'm getting off my soap box now.
Amen brother! Ive told numerous engineers that they should come out in the shop and attempt to do what they ask. Its not an easy thing to do on an engine lathe. I recently had to cut a 7.2 degree angle on a mandrel on a manual lathe and I made the engineer come out and see my setup so he could realize how difficult that can be.
Yes, as a journeyman machinist of 40 years myself, I couldn't agree more with you. Adding a fourth zero to the right of the decimal point takes everything to a whole never level of stress for the machinist.
Flip the triangle over in the first example so it lines up with the lathe components. The 3 inch part is the compound, between the marks, the A or drop is the cross slide. Remember the line cutting the 2 parallels? Thats the rule you are using.
I was a carpenter for 35 years back when we use to cut roofs, before premade trusses. (roofs are all angles). This is exactly how i use to figure angles/lengths,rises, diagonals . If you buy a construction master calculator, which i used for years, this will all be extremely simplified. On the calculator there are three keys called run, rise and diagonal (the three parts of a triangle). You can enter as fractions 1-1/4, or decimals 1.25, or metric 31.75 or whatever. The amount of weird angles on all the different pitched roofs with hips and gables and interrupted angles and so on are endless. Greatest tool ever invented for us dumb carpenters.
Some of these shop calculators require the user to convert the minutes to a decimal before they can proceed. 31 degrees 22 minutes is not 31.22 degrees. I've seen some of these lead guys down the wrong path and confuse them more than help them, but if you are used to using them, I'm sure they are a real time saver. I'll stick with my book. 40 year comfort zone.
Great video. I love it. When I need that kind of accuracy I usually indicate along a sinebar. Very precise also and rules out leadcrew inaccuracies. Works in milling machine too.
That is a good idea in theory but there are some assumptions that are made. Namely the tailstock is in perfect alignment and there is no wear on both your tailstock spindle an the ways of your cross slide. Even if there is wear on the cross slide ways doing this is not going to compensate for the effects of tool pressure when you are actually doing the cut. I am not trying to argue with you I have a great deal of respect for you. I am just trying to point out some things to be aware of.
Joe, I used this technique last night in order to set my compound cut an precise 8-degree taper for an ER11 collet cavity for a holder I made. Worked like a charm! Here I thought I would need to go and buy a sine bar to do this but with a little math and your technique I saved some much needed dough! Much Thanks and keep up the videos. This is priceless knowledge that you are choosing to share and I greatly appreciate it.
Still extremely confused. I need to cut a Metric 6 taper for my spindle on my voctor lathe. I've discovered it's a 1:20 taper which I should set at 2.25 degrees. Still trying to tell exactly what you did here...lol
Joe , I hate to admit it but I had to watch this video about 8 times to understand everything. I’m still a little fuzzy on the outside leg measurement but I’m going out to the atlas 10 and see if I can do this. This would be a big help then I try to make a model rocket nozzle. Thanks
Nice one glad I'm not the only one who think that about the odd engineer. Very timely for me as I had been considering the very problem. Thanks for your time and passing on the knowledge.
Very clever approach. Just be aware that its accuracy relies on your tailstock quill surface alignment with the spindle rotation axis. Any wearings or dents on the quill surface might set your taper off.
Am I ignorant to think that this approach to cutting an angle doesn't rely on any alignment other than accurate measurements? I'm new to machining. How precisely can a 90 be measured. And if the 90 is true, you can make any angle right?
Its great joe,in the beginning it was a little difficult, but as i stand by my lathe and repeat what you explained,suddenly it become clear to me. Thanks a lot for your time , and i hope you will go on to help us.Again Thanks Hans, from Holland
Very nice! This is similar to what I do, only I use a parallel on the compound set to be inline with the centerline of the lathe. This is a faster method for sure. One issue people should be aware of. This assumes the barrel on your tail stock is inline with the ways, and is free of defects at the contact points. This is a bad assumption on an import. You should verify the barrel on your tail stock is in proper alignment. You would want to fix this in any case. You can still correct for the error though. affix a sharpie to the compound inplace of the test indicator. Touch the barrel with the sharpie at the compounds 0 mark, and again at the compounds 3" mark. Sweep the barrel with a test indicator from mark to mark and record the error. This error is a constant and can be added or subtracted from how far you crank in the cross slide. Make a drawing and you will be able to see where to add or subtract.
Watching this in prep for cutting a Jacobs E Taper for some chucks I have in my parts bin - I was originally planing to try this between centers on a test bar instead of with the tailstock since i have demonstrable problems on the barrel.
THIS. If your lathe has any errors, it will be translated into the workpiece. This is where the trainee differs from the master. The master understands and compensates for this kind of errors. You could also just use a machined rod in the lathe as a reference, and all errors in the setup would cancel.
Hi, allow me to say that you are the ONLY one that makes videos where someone thinks: "...exactly this I wanted to know for years". thanks for sharing your knowledge. The day that you will come to Florence let me know, I will show you my city and we take REAL Italian coffe ;-) Take care and stay save
At last someone succeeded in explaining me in a comprehensive way why I had to learn all that trigonometry back in highschool allmost 35 years ago. Thanks and greetings from Belgium.
Gidday Joe, Wow what a fantastic explantion, love the theory, whiteboard and practical application to consolidate. .... 11 minute video means about 5 hours in the workshop setting myself new geometry's to make sure I understand and can get it right. Joe if you ever get the chance I would really love an explanation about the increments on the cross-slide feeds as I use my DRO mainly and think its cheating because I don't really understand what I'm doing.... sorry mate another newbie question. Cheers, Gordon, AUS...... oh yeah, can you give some details of the magnetic dial indicator holder you used in this video, looked nice and lightweight.
The Lathe operator would verify the correct angle using a SINE BAR. The correct slip gauges (Johnnie Blocks) placed under the sine bar on a surface table & IF the angle is correct - the DTI (clock gauge) will measure parallel along the length of the taper. I know like minded people already know this, but some other more casual viewers may not??
Gee Joe, it is with great interest that I watch you channel. Even though I won’t ever need this information, for this ‘ol maintenance engineer I certainly do admire you and your approach/application to a situation such as this. 👍
That's what all that trigonometric math in high school was for however, the proofs in Geometry class, I didn't need. Again, thank you very much for the lesson.
Hi Joe, your content is a little advanced for me at this point. It took me a whole weekend to machine 8 levelling feet for my lathe my first lathe so small steps. However even being a novice your presentation was done in such a normal way without you needing to pull out the technical terms and language that for us novices make you sound like a brain surgeon and goes straight over the top of our heads, you have a way of conveying a circumstance that is understandable to many, thank you. Your clearly putting it out with a genuine desire to help not to stroke your own ego.
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and publishing the videos! I am just a bloody newbie and your videos have helped me immensely. Your videos are clear, concise and very well presented without any annoying babbling. Basically, you taught me via youtube. Thank you! Bernhard
Hi Joe, I'm new to your videos, I'm self taught what I know about machining and your informational videos are excellent, this last compound angle video is one awesome idea, just what I needed to cut some morse angles. What I want to say about figuring angles is get that construction master calculator and with the run/ rise/pitch/diagonal functions you can figure those angles so fast and easy without getting into fancy geometry stuff. Thanks again for making life easier when cutting precise angles.
Oh my - so simple when you know how! so many thanks Joe for passing on this invaluable knowledge - Going to try this on my 70 year old Myford ML7 Also thinking of trying to make some angle gauges, we will see. Again many thanks and best wishes to you and you family.
Great video. I too am interested in that neat little dial test indicator holder. Did you fabricate it?....... Ok on the indicator holder I see it in the finding center height video. Your videos are golden!
I'm ashamed to admit this, but I'm still going to... I did not know this method. It's so simple! To those people who are having trouble grasping it, watching the video while standing in front of the lathe is a good suggestion that someone else mentioned. Thank you, Joe!
The "Inspector" (I'm an Inspector) would measure the taper (cone) on the CMM (co-ordinate measuring machine) 1) Measure the top face (plane) & plane align then call the z axis the origin @ ZERO. 2) Measure the cone angle on the CMM. 3) The Inspector (ME) would then ask the CMM for the Diameter @ 'Z' "ZERO" so it would make NO difference if the Lathe operator (turner) had rounded off the edge or not YES a CMM can & does measure "Fresh Air Dimensions" The CMM will also tell me the diameter at the small end without Actually measuring it!! Say the diameter was specified at the small end at 2.000" Long - I'd simply ask the CMM what is the Ø at Z - (minus) 2.000".
Oh that was very clever indeed. To quote a New Zealand saying, “you really do know your onions!” I am super impressed. The only thing wrong with the whole approach is that I did not think of it..Bravo! Not only that but exactly the same trick will work with my mill. Double winner! Thanks Joe.
Joe, I realize you did this video in 2016 but I just wanted to let you know how much help you've been to me while doing things at my work that I've learned from you. I'm very much a novice when it comes to machining but I'm just good enough to make things work the way I need them with the help from your videos and a few others. Thankyou again for all the great videos Joe you really help guys out like me a HUGE AMOUNT.
Hey Joe, good stuff. I really appreciate your videos like this one. You present well and it is refreshing to see tips from someone with current, relevant practical experience on RUclips (in contrast to so many sloppy home-shop guys like myself). I practiced with this technique and was able to hit my chosen test taper spot on. Thanks!
Another piece of simple trigonometry. No expensive sine bar, no even more expensive gauge blocks. Thank you! I learned trig a million years ago in a third world school. I had the world's worst math teacher. So I found the Barnes&Noble College Outline Series on trig and taught myself. Then I taught my buddies and that cemented it in my mind. Trigonometry is the machinist's best friend. Nowadays there are online aids to learning it, such as the Kahn academy, and whether you use a book or online, every machinist should learn it. At least the rudiments. It is not necessary to learn the identities -- just how to solve a right triangle.
Joe...not trying to be a Butt, however, this is High School Geometry Class ! Sine, Cosine, Tangent, etc. Tool manuals give those calculations. What YOU have shown us is HOW TO USE THAT GEOMETRY ! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU ! i knew it was Geometry, but did not know HOW to turn it into practical use ! I bought a WEN Aluminum Protractor and STILL you cannot read the lines close enough. You technique EXPANDS the numbers out for old, half blind people like me !
That's great. Personally I'm a CNC guy. But watching these videos in you channel helps me on the manual lathe and mill for small projects around my shop. Keep them up. They are very helpful. Thank you for taking the time to show it step by step. You are a great teacher. Two thumbs up!!!!
Like we say here.....Eeish !!! Now I'm more confused. Just kidding. It's study time and we need put our mind to it. Got to use our Machines without any tuition. No UTube those days. So this is a good brain teaser for us rookies. Thanks again Cap'n. Superb and magnanimous of U to share. U a........* !!! LORD Bless aRM
Excellent series! Your practical tips are gold for a hobby machinist like myself with just a couple machines in my garage and no professional experience.
Very clever method, and very precise. I had trouble, however, when turning an external taper between centers. Everything got in the way, and couldn't use full travel of the compound slide. Anyway, I think it´s a great method and will stick to it most of the time.
I spend a lot of time using trig (soh cah toa) for mill work. That is one great tip for lathe work!! Sure beats the eye loop! Thank you for passing on your knowledge.
I really appreciate the rigor of your methods. Assuming the least, getting the precision measuring instrument as close to the parameter you are controlling as possible. Saves a lot of frustration, and a similar trick can be used in many situations.
Awesome! It's interesting to see how many timesTrig shows its ugly head in my shop, but it can save your butt! I should dust off my old college text some time and maybe I'll sweat a little less!
This is an excellent video. I don't have much machining experience, but the maths path I usually don't have too many issues with following and working out what was done to be able to fully understand processes like this... which is why I was confused and pissed momentarily when I did the maths and kept getting an error, before I realized it was 3 times the sin of 31.3667 and NOT the sin of 31.22. My bad, I was tired forgot it was minutes.
The surface finish required for "TOP END" taper bores is NOT achievable with a "Hand Fed" Compound slide - but good enough for semi finishing prior to finish grinding say!!
It's always fun to see math meet machining know how. The things we may call tricks, are not tricks. They are applied knowledge, and damn...I have so much more to learn. They didn't teach me this when I got my Ph. D.
Hi Joe love your ideas,maybe it's time for a small reference book with simple shop sketches and instructions would a lifetime keeper. Thanks for the great experience info. John O'
"Some engineer who has no clue how hard it is to cut", lol. I work as a manufacturing engineer so my design responsibility's are generally limited to fixture and gage design, but I've made more than one tool maker rip his own hair out and scream at the sky in frustration over the years. You've been in the game for awhile, have you found that CAD has increased, decreased, or had no effect on the number of impossible to manufacture features you encounter? Asking from the perspective of someone who started on a board, then progressed through 2D CAD and eventually solid modeling.
Joe, might sound stupid, but I've noticed you tend not to zero your cross slide and compound dials very often, instead just noting the number. In this video you travelled back to zero and had a center punch mark (which tells me that you don't move that dial at all) I personally adjust them all the time and work to zero, like a lot of people (myself included) do with DRO's. I know that adjusting them adds potential for a few tenths error everytime you move it, but I usually take a cut, mic, set what I need to take off so I'll be at my dimension when I come back to (at least close to) zero. Just wondering if there is a higher motive you have for not adjusting them as it seems you have a reason for everything you do. Thanks for the great videos.
Watched this video some time ago but just last month had occasion to use it. I needed to turn a #2 Morse Taper. I can only get 2" travel on my compound so I knew accuracy wouldn't be the best. Setting everything as perfect as I could the tapers didn't seat right in a socket. I think the tolerance on this taper is around 0.001 error over 10" run. How in the real world can I get this on a manual lathe? I machined as good a surface as I could then went to a tool post grinder to give a great finish
May not work for every lathe. I prefer to use sine bar with build up and adjust compound to 0 on indicator while moving carriage back and forth. This aligns with the ways on the lathe. Very accurate.
Must have missed this one - what a great explanation Joe - ever so useful. It's rare I need that degree of accuracy but sure good to know. Never really considered such a trig approach.
Joe Pieczynski hi Joe thanks for the video this is really a big help. I got a quick question I don't know if you have time to answer or not but I'll give you some background first. I couldn't afford a collet check yet I had a bunch of er40 collet so I decided to try my hand at making one I started out with making a practice run using 1018 cold rolled steel cuz I had a big chunk of it laying around. That I made one out of a 311 stress proof and it turned out really nice by the way. And now I'm going to make one out of D2 and get it heat treated properly. My question is what tool would you use to measure the angle once a project is finished? What were the inspector use to check that angle? The reason that I ask is that despite the stress proof Chuck coming out very nicely it's actually a little off in the included angle I know this because I did the whole bluing test. But despite it being off I get absolutely zero run out. I got an old Logan and I got a really good spindle on it because I cannot measure any run out whatsoever at the nose either internally or externally. I cannot measure any run out whatsoever on a gauge pin being held by one of the ER collets. Should I leave well enough alone? Or should I try to make that angle perfect and again how can I measure it after the fact. I know this is an old video and you're extremely busy so if you can answer this I'd appreciate it if not I understand Thank you for your time Jeff
@@ClownWhisper if you get zero run out with a tenths indicator..clamping a gage pin in a collet.... repeatedly.... leave well enough alone. Usually those are ground the collect holders.... but if you realllllllly wanna play with it... not recommended.... I would do you bluing method as before and then use a diamond compound on a piece of wood to work the high spots.... trial and error over and over until your bluing trick is whole..... but when done make sure to wipe workpiece thoroughly with mineral spirits as the diamond paste left over will embed in collets and wear it all out
@@gusmcgussy3299 thank you I actually did finish the taper with the tool post grinder so did have a really nice finish in the end. Despite the fact of losing some of the taper towards the end it was really done with most of the collet surface so it's been good ever since. It's so nice it is actually depended on the quality of the the collets did I use so I guess that's really how it should be.
Easy as (joe) pie! Needed a way to make repeatable tapers for my tapered steam cock plug valve. Awesome how to video. The area around the white board looks a little bit different now!!!
Great technique. I had to cut .4 degree angle over 8 inches. It was just to track a belt on a roller so the tolerance was open. Figured if I am to do it, do it right. This help greatly.
Great channel , best machining vids on utoob. However, maybe the engineer needed that angle for a critical assembly, so he sent out the job for tender. The shop that quote on said job and was awarded the PO then cannot criticize the part, however wanky the angle.
I know I'm 6 years late but just finding this. can you or someone help me understand the idea of angles when it seams like the 0 degree seems to be changing position. For example in your drawing on the board the 0 or no angle is right in line with your headstock centerline. But when you went to set your angle on the compound your 0 was now off by 90degees and zero seemed to be in line with the cross slide. This keeps me so confused... is zero based off the spinning axis of the lathe spindle or like with a thread in line with the crossslide and 90 degree off of spindle axis.
Nice Joe and I'm sure you know your lathe like the back of your hand but I would have liked to see you run the carriage back and forth with the indicator showing the tailstock was indeed parallel with the ways.
Hi from New Zealand Joe. I've just binge watched your entire channel and subscribed. You have fantastic technical info and new techniques I haven't seen before. Hope you can make more videos for us. Don't worry too much about camera angles / steadiness and production values etc if this will put you off putting out videos. Your content is high quality and speaks for itself. Cheers Tim
I used to use a small sine bar with gage blocks, set up with a flat surface to create the triangle and indicate straight. your method is close if your cross feed and compound slide screws are not worn. checking the diameter is a separate issue.
I use the same technique plus to make it easier to set the target angle. I clamp a 1m strip of wood across the bed at right angles. The wood is located to the right of the tail stock. The wood sticks out the front of the lathe. I then clamp a 1.4m length of square section steel onto the side of the top slide. The end of the steel rests on the wood, but is not clamped or attached to it. I now make a first attempt to adjust the angle of the top slide using Joe's method. I mark where the steel now rests on the wood by using the steel like a ruler to mark a line. After each adjustment to set the target angle, I mark a new line on the wood. This gives me a history of angle setting attempts. It is also MUCH easier to make very fine angle adjustments at the far end of the steel than at the top slide. It takes longer to explain than it does to do. It speeds up setting the angle to fine tolerances.
I would only add that you can also slide the saddle parallel to the rotation axis to use the same spot on the tail stock to indicate both ends of the hypotenuse. This eliminates any error that is possibly introduced by the tail stock not being parallel to the rotation axis and machine ways.
My biggest thank you for this video. I was in need of a morse taper 4.5 sleeve to fit a drawbar in my 1924 Oscar Ehrlich lathe, and with the help of your outstanding explanation I've just turned a perfect taper. Took me 15 minutes to dial in the compound slide, and now have a perfect fit MT4.5 sleeve.
we are so lucky to have you on RUclips, a lifetime of knowledge in a few hours , thanks a million
I had to smile about the engineer comment. I was that engineer who couldn't understand the machine shop constantly asking if I really wanted it that size? It was during a previous life when I was designing wire and slick line equipment here in Aberdeen Scotland. Admittedly it was half a lifetime ago so I think I may have learned a bit since that time. Thanks for the pointer from the machinists point of view - and the memory.
I've contributed to the final part from both the shop floor and the keyboard, so I feel qualified to make that comment. CNC machines are a different animal, but manual machinists need tips like this to keep them sane. I also taught a course on design for manufacturability to University of Texas engineering students. I was amazed at what they didn't know. So were they. It always went very well. Thanks for the comment.
I love this one Joe! The way you break things down helps so much. I find I was over thinking this issue and your explanation on the board and then in the shop got me on track. God Bless you bud. I agree with the vast majority of your subscribers that your an excellent teacher and I feel personally blessed to have found you. I'm 46 starting again since being disabled and you truly inspire me. The classes I'm taking plus all the other videos have left me more confused. I understand you better than anyone and I really thank you for what your doing. I'm proud to call you one of my instructors.
Tim Ditmore
Matrix Gunsmithing
Lake George, CO.
Thank you very much. Glad to help.
I'm an engineer and this is why engineering students need to spend all their free time in the machine shop. That 44 minutes on the degree just cost the company 20 minutes in additional set up time, and potentially a lot of scrap for less capable machinists. My other pet peeve is engineers tolerancing everything to +/- .001" because they can't / won't do a tolerance study or don't understand fitments.
I'm getting off my soap box now.
Wrong,... if it was zero minutes, and the tolerance was the same,... it would have been no different.
Daniel Wahl, only partially.
Amen brother! Ive told numerous engineers that they should come out in the shop and attempt to do what they ask. Its not an easy thing to do on an engine lathe. I recently had to cut a 7.2 degree angle on a mandrel on a manual lathe and I made the engineer come out and see my setup so he could realize how difficult that can be.
Even better when you ask for a part to be made within .005 and the machinist makes it to within .001 and charges extra
Yes, as a journeyman machinist of 40 years myself, I couldn't agree more with you. Adding a fourth zero to the right of the decimal point takes everything to a whole never level of stress for the machinist.
I've watched this 3 times and don't completely understand yet . I'll be back tomorrow 😔
Flip the triangle over in the first example so it lines up with the lathe components. The 3 inch part is the compound, between the marks, the A or drop is the cross slide. Remember the line cutting the 2 parallels? Thats the rule you are using.
I was a carpenter for 35 years back when we use to cut roofs, before premade trusses. (roofs are all angles). This is exactly how i use to figure angles/lengths,rises, diagonals . If you buy a construction master calculator, which i used for years, this will all be extremely simplified. On the calculator there are three keys called run, rise and diagonal (the three parts of a triangle). You can enter as fractions 1-1/4, or decimals 1.25, or metric 31.75 or whatever. The amount of weird angles on all the different pitched roofs with hips and gables and interrupted angles and so on are endless. Greatest tool ever invented for us dumb carpenters.
Some of these shop calculators require the user to convert the minutes to a decimal before they can proceed. 31 degrees 22 minutes is not 31.22 degrees. I've seen some of these lead guys down the wrong path and confuse them more than help them, but if you are used to using them, I'm sure they are a real time saver. I'll stick with my book. 40 year comfort zone.
Great video. I love it. When I need that kind of accuracy I usually indicate along a sinebar. Very precise also and rules out leadcrew inaccuracies. Works in milling machine too.
Great tutorial Joe, I have watched it three times and appreciate you sharing you knowledge. all the best from the UK
That is a good idea in theory but there are some assumptions that are made. Namely the tailstock is in perfect alignment and there is no wear on both your tailstock spindle an the ways of your cross slide. Even if there is wear on the cross slide ways doing this is not going to compensate for the effects of tool pressure when you are actually doing the cut. I am not trying to argue with you I have a great deal of respect for you. I am just trying to point out some things to be aware of.
Joe, I used this technique last night in order to set my compound cut an precise 8-degree taper for an ER11 collet cavity for a holder I made. Worked like a charm! Here I thought I would need to go and buy a sine bar to do this but with a little math and your technique I saved some much needed dough! Much Thanks and keep up the videos. This is priceless knowledge that you are choosing to share and I greatly appreciate it.
Well done, I was sent to class today. Just when I think I'm making huge strides, I have so far to go.
Still extremely confused. I need to cut a Metric 6 taper for my spindle on my voctor lathe. I've discovered it's a 1:20 taper which I should set at 2.25 degrees. Still trying to tell exactly what you did here...lol
"Hypotenuse AKA the long leg" lmao. And this is after talking smack about engineers.
Joe , I hate to admit it but I had to watch this video about 8 times to understand everything. I’m still a little fuzzy on the outside leg measurement but I’m going out to the atlas 10 and see if I can do this. This would be a big help then I try to make a model rocket nozzle. Thanks
Nice one glad I'm not the only one who think that about the odd engineer. Very timely for me as I had been considering the very problem. Thanks for your time and passing on the knowledge.
Thanks Will. This works great.
Very clever approach. Just be aware that its accuracy relies on your tailstock quill surface alignment with the spindle rotation axis. Any wearings or dents on the quill surface might set your taper off.
Am I ignorant to think that this approach to cutting an angle doesn't rely on any alignment other than accurate measurements? I'm new to machining. How precisely can a 90 be measured. And if the 90 is true, you can make any angle right?
Measure the part not the tool? Am i wrong?
Its great joe,in the beginning it was a little difficult, but as i stand by my lathe and repeat what you explained,suddenly it become clear to me.
Thanks a lot for your time , and i hope you will go on to help us.Again Thanks
Hans, from Holland
Very nice! This is similar to what I do, only I use a parallel on the compound set to be inline with the centerline of the lathe. This is a faster method for sure.
One issue people should be aware of.
This assumes the barrel on your tail stock is inline with the ways, and is free of defects at the contact points. This is a bad assumption on an import. You should verify the barrel on your tail stock is in proper alignment. You would want to fix this in any case.
You can still correct for the error though.
affix a sharpie to the compound inplace of the test indicator.
Touch the barrel with the sharpie at the compounds 0 mark, and again at the compounds 3" mark.
Sweep the barrel with a test indicator from mark to mark and record the error.
This error is a constant and can be added or subtracted from how far you crank in the cross slide. Make a drawing and you will be able to see where to add or subtract.
Watching this in prep for cutting a Jacobs E Taper for some chucks I have in my parts bin - I was originally planing to try this between centers on a test bar instead of with the tailstock since i have demonstrable problems on the barrel.
THIS. If your lathe has any errors, it will be translated into the workpiece. This is where the trainee differs from the master. The master understands and compensates for this kind of errors. You could also just use a machined rod in the lathe as a reference, and all errors in the setup would cancel.
I just used this technique today to cut an internal taper with a 3 decimal precision callout! Thanks Joe.
Very clear easy to follow. I am not a turner, but I enjoy every one of Joe's videos theory and practical and no unnecessary chat.
Thank you.
Hi, allow me to say that you are the ONLY one that makes videos where someone thinks: "...exactly this I wanted to know for years". thanks for sharing your knowledge. The day that you will come to Florence let me know, I will show you my city and we take REAL Italian coffe ;-)
Take care and stay save
At last someone succeeded in explaining me in a comprehensive way why I had to learn all that trigonometry back in highschool allmost 35 years ago. Thanks and greetings from Belgium.
I cut a JT33 taper with this technique and it worked perfect! Thanks for the tip!
Gidday Joe, Wow what a fantastic explantion, love the theory, whiteboard and practical application to consolidate. .... 11 minute video means about 5 hours in the workshop setting myself new geometry's to make sure I understand and can get it right. Joe if you ever get the chance I would really love an explanation about the increments on the cross-slide feeds as I use my DRO mainly and think its cheating because I don't really understand what I'm doing.... sorry mate another newbie question. Cheers, Gordon, AUS...... oh yeah, can you give some details of the magnetic dial indicator holder you used in this video, looked nice and lightweight.
Gordon Agent Yes, I also would love to see more about that indicator holder!
In all honesty, have you considered writing a technical book for machining? I think you have alot to offer. I would buy it in a second! Thanks
Thank you that makes great sense after your explanation so trig and geometry wasn't a waste of time in school Huh😀
The Lathe operator would verify the correct angle using a SINE BAR.
The correct slip gauges (Johnnie Blocks) placed under the sine bar on a surface table & IF the angle is correct - the DTI (clock gauge) will measure parallel along the length of the taper.
I know like minded people already know this, but some other more casual viewers may not??
All you need is 6 hands, a sine bar, a set of blocks, and true surfaces to set everything so that it doesn't collapse. Otherwise your method is fine.
Gee Joe, it is with great interest that I watch you channel. Even though I won’t ever need this information, for this ‘ol maintenance engineer I certainly do admire you and your approach/application to a situation such as this. 👍
That's what all that trigonometric math in high school was for however, the proofs in Geometry class, I didn't need. Again, thank you very much for the lesson.
I have to admit, I loved those proof tests.
Hi Joe, your content is a little advanced for me at this point. It took me a whole weekend to machine 8 levelling feet for my lathe my first lathe so small steps. However even being a novice your presentation was done in such a normal way without you needing to pull out the technical terms and language that for us novices make you sound like a brain surgeon and goes straight over the top of our heads, you have a way of conveying a circumstance that is understandable to many, thank you. Your clearly putting it out with a genuine desire to help not to stroke your own ego.
Show and tell channels are fine, but I really try to leave my viewers with something to take away, think about or expand on. Thanks for the comment.
Business as usual....meaning here: good video, well explained, have to give it to ya...the magic goes on 👍
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and publishing the videos! I am just a bloody newbie and your videos have helped me immensely. Your videos are clear, concise and very well presented without any annoying babbling. Basically, you taught me via youtube. Thank you!
Bernhard
Sent by Chuck, nice content so far...
Trig. is a great tool, great to be able to master whenever needed, I'll be checking for new stuff... ;)
Hi Joe, I'm new to your videos, I'm self taught what I know about machining and your informational videos are excellent, this last compound angle video is one awesome idea, just what I needed to cut some morse angles. What I want to say about figuring angles is get that construction master calculator and with the run/ rise/pitch/diagonal functions you can figure those angles so fast and easy without getting into fancy geometry stuff. Thanks again for making life easier when cutting precise angles.
Oh my - so simple when you know how! so many thanks Joe for passing on this invaluable knowledge - Going to try this on my 70 year old Myford ML7
Also thinking of trying to make some angle gauges, we will see. Again many thanks and best wishes to you and you family.
Great video. I too am interested in that neat little dial test indicator holder. Did you fabricate it?....... Ok on the indicator holder I see it in the finding center height video. Your videos are golden!
I'm ashamed to admit this, but I'm still going to... I did not know this method. It's so simple!
To those people who are having trouble grasping it, watching the video while standing in front of the lathe is a good suggestion that someone else mentioned.
Thank you, Joe!
Merci from France Joe, this trick will be very useful to me. François
Greetings from Austin Texas! Glad to hear it. It works well.
this one trick is worth trillions of hours of work. thank you so much
The "Inspector" (I'm an Inspector) would measure the taper (cone) on the CMM (co-ordinate measuring machine)
1) Measure the top face (plane) & plane align then call the z axis the origin @ ZERO.
2) Measure the cone angle on the CMM.
3) The Inspector (ME) would then ask the CMM for the Diameter @ 'Z' "ZERO"
so it would make NO difference if the Lathe operator (turner) had rounded off the edge or not
YES a CMM can & does measure "Fresh Air Dimensions"
The CMM will also tell me the diameter at the small end without Actually measuring it!! Say the diameter was specified at the small end at 2.000" Long - I'd simply ask the CMM what is the Ø at Z - (minus) 2.000".
Intersections don't exist. They are defined by faces.
Oh that was very clever indeed. To quote a New Zealand saying, “you really do know your onions!” I am super impressed. The only thing wrong with the whole approach is that I did not think of it..Bravo! Not only that but exactly the same trick will work with my mill. Double winner! Thanks Joe.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Joe, I realize you did this video in 2016 but I just wanted to let you know how much help you've been to me while doing things at my work that I've learned from you. I'm very much a novice when it comes to machining but I'm just good enough to make things work the way I need them with the help from your videos and a few others. Thankyou again for all the great videos Joe you really help guys out like me a HUGE AMOUNT.
Excellent to hear. Thank you for the compliment and your trust.
Hi Joe, Thanks for another great video. Learning lots from you
Many thanks Max
Thanks Max. Glad I can help. More to come.
that should work with Morris tapers as well. thank you for sharing !
Morse?
It will work with any angle required, I should think.
lostvikinga Morris, like on those old British cars like the Morris Minor
just looked them up. you learn something every day.
Buggered if i can find anything on morris taper. It is meant to be Morse isnt it?
Hey Joe, good stuff. I really appreciate your videos like this one. You present well and it is refreshing to see tips from someone with current, relevant practical experience on RUclips (in contrast to so many sloppy home-shop guys like myself). I practiced with this technique and was able to hit my chosen test taper spot on. Thanks!
Outstanding. the bigger the triangle you use, the greater the accuracy. thanks for trying it and thank you for the comment.
Another piece of simple trigonometry. No expensive sine bar, no even more expensive gauge blocks. Thank you! I learned trig a million years ago in a third world school. I had the world's worst math teacher. So I found the Barnes&Noble College Outline Series on trig and taught myself. Then I taught my buddies and that cemented it in my mind. Trigonometry is the machinist's best friend. Nowadays there are online aids to learning it, such as the Kahn academy, and whether you use a book or online, every machinist should learn it. At least the rudiments. It is not necessary to learn the identities -- just how to solve a right triangle.
I agree 100%. Basic geometry skills are also a good compliment to this. Thanks for watching Juan.
GOOD VIDEO.. NEXT LEVEL SHOULD BE TO LEARN TO MIC OVER TOOLING BALLS
Its already in my video catalog.
Joe...not trying to be a Butt, however, this is High School Geometry Class ! Sine, Cosine, Tangent, etc. Tool manuals give those calculations. What YOU have shown us is HOW TO USE THAT GEOMETRY ! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU !
i knew it was Geometry, but did not know HOW to turn it into practical use ! I bought a WEN Aluminum Protractor and STILL you cannot
read the lines close enough. You technique EXPANDS the numbers out for old, half blind people like me !
Great tip. Practical trig application. Fantastic explanation helps demystify the complexity of such a complex part. Thanks again, Joe.
You are a pro. Tanks from Gunnar toolmaker from Sweden
Thanks for watching.
That's great. Personally I'm a CNC guy. But watching these videos in you channel helps me on the manual lathe and mill for small projects around my shop. Keep them up. They are very helpful. Thank you for taking the time to show it step by step. You are a great teacher. Two thumbs up!!!!
Thank you.
Like we say here.....Eeish !!! Now I'm more confused.
Just kidding. It's study time and we need put our mind to it. Got to use our Machines without any tuition. No UTube those days. So this is a good brain teaser for us rookies.
Thanks again Cap'n. Superb and magnanimous of U to share. U a........* !!!
LORD Bless
aRM
Excellent series! Your practical tips are gold for a hobby machinist like myself with just a couple machines in my garage and no professional experience.
Very clever method, and very precise. I had trouble, however, when turning an external taper between centers. Everything got in the way, and couldn't use full travel of the compound slide. Anyway, I think it´s a great method and will stick to it most of the time.
I spend a lot of time using trig (soh cah toa) for mill work. That is one great tip for lathe work!! Sure beats the eye loop! Thank you for passing on your knowledge.
I really appreciate the rigor of your methods. Assuming the least, getting the precision measuring instrument as close to the parameter you are controlling as possible. Saves a lot of frustration, and a similar trick can be used in many situations.
Over my head but i did try to understand it. and like his videos.
Awesome! It's interesting to see how many timesTrig shows its ugly head in my shop, but it can save your butt! I should dust off my old college text some time and maybe I'll sweat a little less!
It's weird how every machinist I personally know makes parts for the space program and the DoD.... I smell bullshit.
CELROCK THE EXPLANATION COULD HAVE BEEN CLEARER or maybe i'm a slow learner
Joe...a dumb question from a beginner.....is there a degree setting on the compound that, say, correlates to a MT2 ? Thank you.
This is an excellent video. I don't have much machining experience, but the maths path I usually don't have too many issues with following and working out what was done to be able to fully understand processes like this...
which is why I was confused and pissed momentarily when I did the maths and kept getting an error, before I realized it was 3 times the sin of 31.3667 and NOT the sin of 31.22. My bad, I was tired forgot it was minutes.
The surface finish required for "TOP END" taper bores is NOT achievable with a "Hand Fed" Compound slide - but good enough for semi finishing prior to finish grinding say!!
It's always fun to see math meet machining know how. The things we may call tricks, are not tricks. They are applied knowledge, and damn...I have so much more to learn. They didn't teach me this when I got my Ph. D.
OK , Now That really impressed me. The only problem I am having is I keep watching the video's and don't go out and actually run my machines enough .
Hi Joe love your ideas,maybe it's time for a small reference book with simple shop sketches and instructions would a lifetime keeper.
Thanks for the great experience info.
John O'
"Some engineer who has no clue how hard it is to cut", lol. I work as a manufacturing engineer so my design responsibility's are generally limited to fixture and gage design, but I've made more than one tool maker rip his own hair out and scream at the sky in frustration over the years. You've been in the game for awhile, have you found that CAD has increased, decreased, or had no effect on the number of impossible to manufacture features you encounter? Asking from the perspective of someone who started on a board, then progressed through 2D CAD and eventually solid modeling.
Joe, might sound stupid, but I've noticed you tend not to zero your cross slide and compound dials very often, instead just noting the number. In this video you travelled back to zero and had a center punch mark (which tells me that you don't move that dial at all) I personally adjust them all the time and work to zero, like a lot of people (myself included) do with DRO's. I know that adjusting them adds potential for a few tenths error everytime you move it, but I usually take a cut, mic, set what I need to take off so I'll be at my dimension when I come back to (at least close to) zero. Just wondering if there is a higher motive you have for not adjusting them as it seems you have a reason for everything you do. Thanks for the great videos.
People don’t understand why I say I need trig and often volumetric equations when machining.
Watched this video some time ago but just last month had occasion to use it. I needed to turn a #2 Morse Taper. I can only get 2" travel on my compound so I knew accuracy wouldn't be the best. Setting everything as perfect as I could the tapers didn't seat right in a socket. I think the tolerance on this taper is around 0.001 error over 10" run. How in the real world can I get this on a manual lathe? I machined as good a surface as I could then went to a tool post grinder to give a great finish
May not work for every lathe. I prefer to use sine bar with build up and adjust compound to 0 on indicator while moving carriage back and forth. This aligns with the ways on the lathe. Very accurate.
Must have missed this one - what a great explanation Joe - ever so useful. It's rare I need that degree of accuracy but sure good to know. Never really considered such a trig approach.
Make sure the tool is on center as well, or the angle may come out different than the setting.
Joe Pieczynski hi Joe thanks for the video this is really a big help. I got a quick question I don't know if you have time to answer or not but I'll give you some background first. I couldn't afford a collet check yet I had a bunch of er40 collet so I decided to try my hand at making one I started out with making a practice run using 1018 cold rolled steel cuz I had a big chunk of it laying around. That I made one out of a 311 stress proof and it turned out really nice by the way. And now I'm going to make one out of D2 and get it heat treated properly. My question is what tool would you use to measure the angle once a project is finished? What were the inspector use to check that angle?
The reason that I ask is that despite the stress proof Chuck coming out very nicely it's actually a little off in the included angle I know this because I did the whole bluing test. But despite it being off I get absolutely zero run out. I got an old Logan and I got a really good spindle on it because I cannot measure any run out whatsoever at the nose either internally or externally. I cannot measure any run out whatsoever on a gauge pin being held by one of the ER collets.
Should I leave well enough alone? Or should I try to make that angle perfect and again how can I measure it after the fact.
I know this is an old video and you're extremely busy so if you can answer this I'd appreciate it if not I understand
Thank you for your time
Jeff
@@ClownWhisper if you get zero run out with a tenths indicator..clamping a gage pin in a collet.... repeatedly.... leave well enough alone.
Usually those are ground the collect holders.... but if you realllllllly wanna play with it... not recommended.... I would do you bluing method as before and then use a diamond compound on a piece of wood to work the high spots.... trial and error over and over until your bluing trick is whole..... but when done make sure to wipe workpiece thoroughly with mineral spirits as the diamond paste left over will embed in collets and wear it all out
@@gusmcgussy3299 thank you I actually did finish the taper with the tool post grinder so did have a really nice finish in the end. Despite the fact of losing some of the taper towards the end it was really done with most of the collet surface so it's been good ever since.
It's so nice it is actually depended on the quality of the the collets did I use so I guess that's really how it should be.
I can't understand your drawings but I understand your practical work on lathe & dial indicator method,thanks & best wishes for you from india
Brings me back to my high school trig days. Great explanation.
Easy as (joe) pie! Needed a way to make repeatable tapers for my tapered steam cock plug valve. Awesome how to video. The area around the white board looks a little bit different now!!!
Should you make sure of your tail stock alignment first?
Thats a good practice.
Thank you for your content
Great technique. I had to cut .4 degree angle over 8 inches. It was just to track a belt on a roller so the tolerance was open. Figured if I am to do it, do it right. This help greatly.
Thanks for sharing my friend. Excellent presentation.
Great channel , best machining vids on utoob. However, maybe the engineer needed that angle for a critical assembly, so he sent out the job for tender. The shop that quote on said job and was awarded the PO then cannot criticize the part, however wanky the angle.
Very clever! One could use this idea many different ways. Thanks.
I know I'm 6 years late but just finding this. can you or someone help me understand the idea of angles when it seams like the 0 degree seems to be changing position. For example in your drawing on the board the 0 or no angle is right in line with your headstock centerline. But when you went to set your angle on the compound your 0 was now off by 90degees and zero seemed to be in line with the cross slide. This keeps me so confused... is zero based off the spinning axis of the lathe spindle or like with a thread in line with the crossslide and 90 degree off of spindle axis.
How about that, you never stop amazing me Joe. just looking over your stuff, this is in my top ten. No trick just very clever thought out work.
Nice Joe and I'm sure you know your lathe like the back of your hand but I would have liked to see you run the carriage back and forth with the indicator showing the tailstock was indeed parallel with the ways.
Can you recommend a good text book as a refresher on math (geometry & algebra) for machinists?
Liked the video but can you be 100% sure that the tailstock tube is 100% parallel to the spindle axis?
Love your lathe Joe, I had a 15 x 50 with taper attachment what a machine.
Hi from New Zealand Joe.
I've just binge watched your entire channel and subscribed. You have fantastic technical info and new techniques I haven't seen before. Hope you can make more videos for us. Don't worry too much about camera angles / steadiness and production values etc if this will put you off putting out videos. Your content is high quality and speaks for itself.
Cheers
Tim
Thank Tim. Great comment. Stay tuned and thanks for subscribing.
can you cover different methods and techniques to cutting tapers? id and od
I used to use a small sine bar with gage blocks, set up with a flat surface to create the triangle and indicate straight. your method is close if your cross feed and compound slide screws are not worn. checking the diameter is a separate issue.
I use the same technique plus to make it easier to set the target angle. I clamp a 1m strip of wood across the bed at right angles. The wood is located to the right of the tail stock. The wood sticks out the front of the lathe. I then clamp a 1.4m length of square section steel onto the side of the top slide. The end of the steel rests on the wood, but is not clamped or attached to it. I now make a first attempt to adjust the angle of the top slide using Joe's method. I mark where the steel now rests on the wood by using the steel like a ruler to mark a line. After each adjustment to set the target angle, I mark a new line on the wood. This gives me a history of angle setting attempts. It is also MUCH easier to make very fine angle adjustments at the far end of the steel than at the top slide. It takes longer to explain than it does to do. It speeds up setting the angle to fine tolerances.
I would only add that you can also slide the saddle parallel to the rotation axis to use the same spot on the tail stock to indicate both ends of the hypotenuse. This eliminates any error that is possibly introduced by the tail stock not being parallel to the rotation axis and machine ways.
This Alex Koenig comment below made me laugh so hard!!!
I feel smarter because of this! THANK YOU!
If you have the travel in your lathe double the dimensions and you will be even more precise
thanks joe, im watching! l get somethings for green newbie with hf mini laith.
Excellent. Such a simple solution I wish I would have learned years ago! Thank you!
Excellent tip Joe. Even a half-assed machinist like me can use this!
Already subscribed and enjoying your other videos.
Spell that "half-fast". It leaves room for improvement!! Thanks for your sub. Much appreciated.
Very good lesson! Learn a lot. Thank you! :D
NIce to see you use a box wrench, I see so many using open end wrench like they never been taught
you could use a bevel protractor clamped to center and indacate off that and get very close as well
My biggest thank you for this video.
I was in need of a morse taper 4.5 sleeve to fit a drawbar in my 1924 Oscar Ehrlich lathe, and with the help of your outstanding explanation I've just turned a perfect taper.
Took me 15 minutes to dial in the compound slide, and now have a perfect fit MT4.5 sleeve.
Glad it helped. Its very accurate.