Hi, as a backer, i liked the way the creator of necromolds (kickstarter necromolds-monster-battles/posts/3196099) asked people to help him to endure the 10k $ shipping extra. Being transparent was very important to me ;)
I can appreciate that none of the game companies on Kickstarter could have predicted Covid or it's impact on shipping and I sympathize with them in that regard. That said, some companies have made bad business decisions which have been exacerbated by these crises and they just want to blame the crises. Those game companies still need to be held accountable for their mistakes.
I think this is just really bringing it back home, that KS is not a sure thing. I have already, in the past, on 3 occasions, had to send more money after already paying for everything to get a product shipped. In one case, had I not immediately sent $100 I would never have received the product as the day after they shipped things they declared bankruptcy. This is really the perfect time for folks to walk away from KS, or at least be more cautious. We have all become so used to KS being such a reliable (mostly) experience, that a few months delay for production was common, but not a few months delay or extra charges before something ships out. I cannot afford to send extra money to numerous backed KS games, just to ensure that I receive what I have pledged for. I really hope we don't hit a situation, where a year from now, we are still waiting for Wonderland's War, or even a second year delay on my Cthulhu Wars stuff that I ordered a year ago now. All of a sudden, traditional retail release games are going to see a renaissance of attention.
Thing is its not just a Kickstarter thing, those traditional retail release games are also going to get a price hike, because the companies that make the games still need to ship the games to those retailers. If those companies can't pay those extra costs, you will see less games sold in retail.
@@BoardGameCo I do not doubt this, yet traditional retail channels still have loads of games that have been made and are just waiting to ship. I would guess Asmodee also has an easier time getting passage on a ship than a 2 person KS team. Regardless, my point remains that this is the time to enjoy the games you have and leave KS alone for a while. It would be hard for me to back games in the coming months when I see that everything that should have been delivered months ago, is still sitting at a dock somewhere waiting for a berth on a ship.
Totally agree. Kickstarter have always posed a small risk. It’s not a guarantee, you are first and foremost investing in something that is not a sure thing. There are many things that can and will go wrong.
I agree. We are seeing KS prices soaring and shipping costs right along with them. And despite the higher costs I see delays on top of delays. The world is a mess right now, and this is the consequence of shoddy infrastructure. Unbroken was a game that had similar issues. I was lucky to get my copy, many people were held hostage in return for more shipping fees. In the end my wife and I decided to stop backing kickstarter and Gamefound games. At least until the world has returned to some semblance of order. But don't worry Alex, we will still anxiously waiting for what's next on your channel. We love your honesty and deep conversations on the business and their practices.
Just to clarify, Shipping is the cost to ship your individual game from the Hub to your Home. Freight is the cost to ship all of the games to all of the hubs around the world. Shipping is normally paid by the customer (it is sometimes subsidized by the creator) and Freight is paid for by the creator / game company. I need to understand more about the figures from Triton Noir before agreeing to pay more. They raised $1.4M CAD = $1.15 M USD in the Kickstarter campaign and I am sure they pulled in more in the Pledge Manager. They posted the following statement in their update: "When we committed to absorbing the $70,500 surplus ($ 105,000 - $ 34,500), we were not only aware that we would not make any profit on Kickstarter sales, but also that we would lose money. Absorbing the new surplus of $53,175 ($ 158,175 - $ 105,000) would put Triton Noir at risk." It seems very sketchy that a surprise $70K expense could wipe out all of the profit margin from their campaign. The only way that this is the case is if they have been paying themselves salaries out of the proceeds.
@@BoardGameCo Because they have a game company that sells other games. Their entire salaries should not be coming from this Kickstarter. Are you familiar with corporate accounting and how employees are charged to projects? Only the time the employees actually spend on the project should be charged to it. Are they doing the same on V-Commandos? It really makes me want to cancel my V-Commandos pledge. This is why most game companies use contractors except for a few individuals. I admire the way that Succubus Publishing handled this in their first KS campaign. When it got to the end after 3 years, they were short by $80K for shipping (they had promised free shipping and costs went up over the 3 years). They went around pitching their product and secured investors to provide the funds, shipped the games to backers and reviewers (believing in their product), and launched a new campaign to make themselves and their investors whole. Triton Noir now owns an asset that backers have fully paid for (it now exists because we funded it). They could do the same with investors (or a loan) and launch a very profitable reprint campaign (all development costs are already paid for and only manufacturing and shipping costs would apply). Asking backers for the money is the easy (lazy) way.
@@Thomas-kx9op Succubus Publishing is a rare breed. Appreciate the company and everything you and CrimsonSun have done. All together you have easily made it a project worth being a part of. Outstanding.. just outstanding work. I just wanted to thank you. 👏
This has pretty much sealed the deal of me backing any kickstarters for the foreseeable future with the exception of an expansion to some game I already love. But I'm not backing any new IP's or taking a risk on any games until this blows over.
"When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, 'Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping. '"
Alex, what do you think if you anticipated on higher pricepoint of a container and the price goes down. Do the they have - in your opinion - to pay you back the excess?
This is a really great question!!! Its great that the the board game KS you tubers are coming out in support of the companies (best way to explain it without trying to be offensive, cause i love Alex). I’d really love that to be discussed in this. Shipping prices go up, you pay more. But whats the opinion on if the shipping cost goes down and these companies have charged more than they should. Will they give refunds? Probably not. Also, @boardgameco, does your opinion for this apply to big companies like CMON?
@@BoardGameCo its a very complicated question, i agree. I was less angered by your video (cause its you) than Quakalopes. It seems like a flag is being put up to “help the BG creators” because of this monstrous problem that is affecting all sorts of industries, which is fine, and i would help out if its like $10 or so more. I’m not concerned with that. But if that happens, its gotta go the other way. Creators should make money off their product, 1000%. But I dont want to see them making money off of shipping costs when and if prices suddenly come way down. THAT, would be hypocritical. I look forward to your saturday video! :D
That would be the ethical thing to do, but I don’t even know if it’s possible post kickstarter to refund an amount of money? I’d be ok with a discount coupon for your next purchase. Or maybe a general ks coupon, if that is a thing?
Let me tell you a recent story. I am a professional painter, we were doing an enamel job, and not because of anything we did the product failed. Granted the paint company refund and give us new paint. We will not be compensated for the 160 hour of lost labor, that we will have to do again. Now am I going to make the customer pay more? Nope, they had an expectation that I sold them on. I am going back to do all the work, and while it sucks to loose money on a job, one happy customer is worth it to me, honor your promise its how I expect to be treated. Good luck everyone.
Absolutely....but what if all your paint jobs this year had that happens? Companies eat individual costs left right and center.....but we are talking about a different level of hit than what you're describing.
@@BoardGameCo Let me make a point in this, if you knew supply was having a problem, ie you know started a KS while in a pandemic then I would say that's on you. I will help those that KSed prepandemic. Those started during a pandemic, while knowing that supply lines were already being affected. I have way less sympathy for. They knew things were bad. To answer your question, I would quit using that product, and honestly, I may never uses that product again.
I’m not sure I’ve seen another industry where consumers compensate for losses of producers. In pretty much every other industry poor planning or unexpected risks can tank a company and it will usually be replaced by another. If they don’t raise prices because they want to ensure more units are sold but then later need to raise prices to deliver the good purchased...it goes against every business principle I have learned or lived. During this pandemic I guess we can say it’s an extraordinary situation that can prove fatal to an industry that’s generally running on lower margins. I’m happy to support the ones that were hit but I don’t accept this for Kickstarter campaigns that will launch in the 2nd half of the year. Those need to raise prices and need to learn from other campaigns that have unexpectedly struggled. The risk needs to be part of the estimates now.
There have always been struggling campaigns. I've backed many of them. I don't think anyone will ever learn to make campaigns fool-proof. The weirdest part is that even those who have 3-5 previous successful campaigns, can still start to fail all of their future ones. You are never safe, because the reasons why they are failing are usually because the companys are run poorly but survive on borrowing money. A not too uncommon method is to use your new kickstarter money to pay for the previous kickstarter fulfillment. It gives an illusion of a working kickstarter company, but will crash and burn sooner or later.
While I agree that KS campaigns in the future should hopefully account for this, I'd strongly disagree with your first point. No matter how much people want to treat Kickstarter campaigns as a normal way of doing business, this is an investment. Even for those people who've never gone in with their buddy on an investment of a business and then have them needing to come back for more to stay afloat, I'm sure that several of you have had contractors quote a price on building a house or doing a large repair, and then having to pay more than that quote when issues were found.
since you're basically an investor, investing in startups is exactly like this. You might not get your expected ROI, but if a company is about to go down and there's a chance you can get some pay out for minimum extra investment, you can be sure you'll fund them if the math works out. it follows through the entire investment cycle. because we're essentially decentralized crowd source investment, if we aren't paid or they missed their number, their series B is in jeopardy so most companies work to hit target and pay out (in games). People that don't think they can continue to receive investment or hit their goals disappear taking the money with them.
Yeah. Kickstarter is not a store, it is an investment platform. It has just generally felt like a pre-order from a store as far as board games go. Until now.
Love the conversation. I’ve looked at crowdfunding as a “pre-purchase” of something that does not yet exist - there’s a risk inherent to committing so early in a project lifecycle. Now it feels like we are being asked to assume more and more of the risks. What is prices had swung the other way, what if we were living in the era of uber cheap shipping, cheap printing / cardboard / plastic, do we believe any of those projects would have given us some money back? Not only are we not investors in those projects as we get no share of profits, business growth or other positive consequences yet we have to assume all/some of the risks? That sounds to me like the definition of a bad deal, but it makes a ton of sense why companies would LOVE that model. Also, the lack of transparency in private companies behind those projects worries me. I am ALL for companies making a profit. But I also live in a world where some people never have enough money. “We cannot assume that additional cost” could mean well, our CEO won’t be able to purchase his fourth home to we’ll have to let go of some staff, to go out of business altogether. I dream of external trustworthy auditors being granted access to those organizations and able to report to backers. Opportunity for a new industry?
CMON was delisted from the HKSE after their auditing firm posted a warning about a "going concern" regarding how the monies from multiple KS were processed through the books. CMON changed auditors (switching from Price Waterhouse Coopers to some Chinese firm). I'm not sure it's realistic to expect the level of transparency you're recommending.
This is precisely how I feel. Risk goes both ways. Backers effectively give the publishers a loan to produce the game. The larger project have large profit margins, if we are to believe Pete Shirey. To add to that, many companies have added 30 to 50 dollars since the beginning of the year in order to compensate for VAT, a cost not all of us must pay. Maybe small publishers deserve some consideration. On the other hand, I would at least be extraordinarily disappointed if a company like Awaken Realms asks for additional funds for shipping.
Perhaps publishers should consider joining forces to be able to face this situation together, as much as possible. I might be a little utopic, thinking that this is a possibility, but who knows, it might be and this might benefit all of us! As always, you have a fantastic way of tackling difficult subjects, well done, thank you!
@@BoardGameCo Shipping won't get better until 2022 or 2023. We need smaller games and less bloat and worse case is cmon. Board games are around 300 all in and most non board gamers think that crazy. I think it is unfortunate, but all big box games might have to delay because most people backed these games thinking Shipping would be lower and if all these games need more money for shipping, then I might need to refund some. They need to get shipping money, when they are ready to ship and not 1 year or 2 years early. This probably would have been a problem eventually without the pandemic and hope maybe they might list shipping as TBA, until after production.
Maybe we will finally start seeing the economic incentive for companies to design boxes to fit the game as opposed to them being simply a large air filled advert for game shelves, after all in person purchases in retail stores are such a small proportion of sales now. My kallax will be very happy :)
My question is this: If it is reasonable to give the companies a pass due to changing situations, how long do we continue to accept the situation? Hopefully we can agree that if they are still behaving like this (delays and price increases) in 2 years then the company can be blamed for poor planning, poor communication or customer neglect. And if we can, what about 1 year? It has already been some time since this started.
I think this situation will lead to people being more careful about how they spend their money so essentially using ks less, which will lead to creators being more pessimistic in their pricing. So the prices will go up, people will back less in a self feeding loop. This will drive us to purchase more at retail… Long story short people will always spend their money but where they spend it will change. The answer to your question is I think for the moment it is reasonable for me to help out the creators, as Alex said this was a situation nobody could foresee. Going forward, no we won’t give them a pass, but the risk is already out there. It will factor into our decision to back anything ever again.
@@dultanur I feel similarly. I want my previously backed games and can understand paying more for shipping or waiting while they delay. But over the next year or more I will be more hesitant to back a project and instead spend most of my money at the local game store or online from items in stock.
As a first time publisher, I am feeling this right now. So many potential backers are scared off by the shipping costs, especially internationally. And then there is VAT in the EU and UK....
I really appreciate you among most of the board game channels I follow because of how direct and informative you are. It really shows how well you do your research and compile information.
Nope, I don't think they would. And I'm not advocating covering small increases, again see my response to Black Rose Wars....and yet there is a difference between increased costs, vs "oh dear lord no one could have seen this coming, this will bankrupt us" increased costs.
Being a creative professional myself I can empathize with that kind of work being under-appreciated and under valued, People in the industry will frequently comment how "I'm so thankful I'm getting to do what I love for a living, even if its not what I'd like to be paid." And seeing the amount of time/work/testing/and talent it blows me away how games can sell so cheap relative to the amount of creative energy that is put into them. it's unfortunate that this global shipping crisis will inadvertently hurt those people who have poured all of their creative talents into this space. This is a unique space, where event the "big" companies are small by comparison to other industries, and I hope the people who love and support this hobby, attempt to empathize with this unforeseen situation, and willingly either pay, or in some cases give back, to keep those creators in business.
I've always wondered why companies charge shipping years before delivery, just reopen the PM just before delivery it will be very accurate. If they do that this problem goes away largely... Honestly I'm of the thinking shipping is shipping and if its ballooned its annoying but its understandable but really the practise of charging shipping years before delivery needs to stop.
Yeah I think no matter what they do it would be a lose lose situation. Charge in PM right after campaign closed? Well you get into this mess. Charge for shipping a month or two before you actually ship? People will complain why shipping is so high. feel like they were extorted, and demand refunds. I mean you see it, Ive seen a few updates going up talking about that it might happen, and while a majority are understanding, there are quite a few who are not.
@@brycejarrett9211 Thats fine as long as its clearly a estimate, world changes happen, being charged a year or two before something ships is rolling the dice and hoping for six's
@@harmarize And those few who aren't can normally get there refunds... At the end of the day shipping is shipping you can pay it or not, but you can't change what it is and sadly it costs more right now so we pay more or pull out of products we've backed. I've never understood those in commonly served by hubs western countries complaining about shipping... Brazil with there 80% tax and shipping costing more than a pledge I get it, same with other RoW countries who are paying easily there pledge again but for us lucky to be served by the benefit of numbers reducing distribution costs its never more expensive than the cost of sending a shipment yourself from said country.
I'm curious about the potential outcomes for the situation in which a company "holds your game" hostage. Situation as described involves a company that cannot/will not cover the increased shipping cost and demands backers to pay the difference: 1] Backer pays and gets product; 2] Backer refuses and product shipped later; 3] Backer refuses and never gets the game. Follow-up question: can the company repatriate a product that it will not send to the backer and sell it to another party for the requested price? Will the primary backer be refunded their full pledge cost or absorb the KS fee? Crowd-funding has essentially zero-protection for the consumer, as demonstrated by the standard hold-harmless release from liability that KS announces with each campaign as they pocket their 10% fee. I don't think any backer has any enforceable protection to redress hypothetical situation #3, but would appreciate it for someone to reply here if they know differently. As an observation, I would respectfully disagree with the precept in reference to shipping cost shocks that "non one saw this coming". In truth, the pattern has been building for years, and COVID was an accelerant rather than a primary cause. Natural disasters, unstable regional governments, cyber attacks on logistic infrastructure and the potential for open conflict within the nine-dash line of the SCS could just as easily have broken a system with minimal or no extra capacity. Shipping containers and ships don't get built overnight, which is likely why elevated costs will continue in the foreseeable future. The backlog that currently exists will exacerbate the problem, threatening some shipping companies with insolvency that will continue a harmful cycle. For too long, we've all benefited from the labor-cost arbitrage that has insulated us from the true price of the products we consume that cross oceans to our doorsteps. Time to pay the Piper. Great video, cogent thoughts and serious opinions for serious gamers everywhere. Thank you, Alex!
Update from Monolith today: "Which brings us to the hot topic of the “moment”: the cost of freight /containers to our distribution hubs. As some of you have probably already read here and there, things are not getting any better. Let's not beat around the bush on the issue that makes backers shudder: we will NOT be asking our backers to get their wallet out to absorb this substantial additional cost. Just as you were there for us during this post-BTM Kickstarter, it's only fair that we return the favor. We are now waiting for a date when freight shipping to our distribution hubs can go ahead. This issue, already turbulent for a while, has recently worsened as provinces like Guangdong (which handles much of China’s shipping traffic) struggle with a Covid epidemic. So, we’ll be sending out Pledges as soon as we can." To note, Guangdong is in a partial shutdown. Second, many KSs are ready to ship and have NO idea when they will.
The problem, especially with assassin's creed, is that you can excuse them because covid was not a thing when assassin's creed was funded, but then you look at v-commandos deluxe and they did nothing in that regard. Shipping is still 15/20 eur, the price of the game (since it seems factory shipping is 'hidden' in the game price rather than shipping) does not look outrageous. Probably is my Italian side speaking, but I am worried companies are now riding the issue (and in particular quackalope's video, every campaign is linking it), pretending everything is normal because they can just ask more money later.
I just finished typing the message and you mention price increase instantly. now I know your feeling of I have an update out today and they add a new pledge level tomorrow
The companies will absolutely ride the goodwill that Quackalope and I are buying them....but those $100,000 cost increases to their project are very very real. They've just been terrified to write these updates until everyone was doing it.
Since I started to back games on Kickstarter not so long ago, most of games I’m waiting now is actually late pledges. And I would only support additional shipping charges from companies, who didn’t charged me extra for late pledge. But if I’m already paying more, can’t see the reason I should care.
It makes me roll my eyes when I see people bemoaning shipping costs for big box board games kickstarters at the moment. However, I think part of the problem though is that there has been shipping price gouging over the last 10 years, particularly out of the US with the legislative changes that cripple the US postal service. As such, this has created an automatic suspicion that high shipping prices are price gouging and not due to other factors. Surely the easiest solution is to hold off charging for shipping until you are prepping to ship your product.
Another point: if they hold off shipping now, and ship it later IF prices recover, they will still have to eat costs of storing the products until that time. This can be massive for climate controlled storage. Thank you very much for taking the time to help people understand these unforseen costs. I'm one that will be paying extra to get my copy of Assassins Creed. I understand what they are asking and how hard it must be for them. Thank you sir!
And your great videos keep coming. Very insightful. This is as important as any review, if not more. Thank you for this one, Alex. We are really passionate about this hobby and it’s also up to us to be supportive towards the struggles that companies and small publishers face. With understanding, patience and empathy we’ll eventually get through this whole mess. Together is the key word. And I’m optimistic, I think overall we’re a supportive community.
One thing I would love to see is a discussion of how large game companies are. It seems that some people think many of these companies are multi million dollar companies with huge profit margins.
Wow, I've just read an update from Panic Roll (Townsfolk Tussle). In the update they tackle the topic of shipping increase. They estimated that they have to pay $100k more than they planned, and that they are going to cover it. I'm so sad I couldn't back their game, such an amazing stance. I encourage you to read the update since it also contains some data about particular regions shipping costs.
Let me ask you this since you've mentioned ignite, it was supposed to be released before the pandemic but had delay after delay, do they get a pass now that the shipping costs are higher? Should the customers cover the cost?
Great message Alex and while I agree that no one could anticipate the mass effects of a global pandemic on the shipping industry I still think there's a 4th option for content creators. I understand most may not be able to absorb this added cost in shipping but I still feel they owe something back to their customers based on taking payment for a product they haven't provided. I think the 4th option is finding a way to compensate their backers in some form or fashion for helping take on that added cost. I guess this is more of a compromise, but in this situation that would make their backers more understanding at the very least to feel the companies are looking for some common ground rather than completely footing the bill to those that supported them.
This is why shipping prices in a backerkit is the way to do it and not charge at the Kickstarter collection time. Because shipping costs fluctuate a lot. So estimated shipping prices are different than set collected ones.
Great video. Really appreciate your objectivity and tone. No easy answers. Wake up call for everyone in the industry. I read a great book years ago called “Who Moved My Cheese”. Some (creators, publishers, retailers and individual buyers) will adapt and flourish while others will disappear to be replaced by others. The great creators and publishers will survive in the short-term and will flourish in the long-term.
I wonder if anyone choosing to delay has to also pay for storage of products in a warehouse while they wait or if production is normally so near to shipping that very few are in this predicament. But it could be another factor in delaying the shipping. Your most important statement is to promote generosity. Not financial generosity but generosity of spirit. We seem to be moving faster to a society of selfish and what we need is understanding and KINDNESS!
There's a lot of games I will not back simply because I'm from NZ - so charges can be high - some other countries really get creamed . So if I was in the States and I got a $10 extra - that would be a relief - as we can get $50 more charge . I think some creators don't put effort in finding best solutions - I can buy a gigantic box filled with 10 big box games from Amazon - for cheaper than some KS quotes like $100 for 10kg - yet Australia next door gets quoted $30 . So basically the whole massive variability is a mystery to me ( I understand fulfillment centres etc ) - 1 KS quotes $40 shipping another $100 - yet they both weigh the same , have the same fulfilment countries - NZ has a big gaming community . Then there's the mystery that some times crops up is cheaper to fly to another city with a 25kg bag , plus a 7kg walk on bag , than send $25kg by road or fly ( admittedly it includes deliver - but even depot to depot ) As for the price of KS - do not worry - they are coming thick and faster - didn't get that top IP - if will be beaten and improved upon down the road. Gamefound just sent me an email a few days ago - of so more huge ones coming - So their will be KS for everyone - plus great games do not need to be big- oldies are goldies . Plus should you back it!! - you can get free shipping down the road -as quoted by Alex. R
"When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, 'Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.'" ‐ Mr. Rogers
I found the same on SFB. The shipping was higher than originally planned. Not sure how much covid played a part. There was a lot of grief on Kickstarter chat. To be clear I bought in after the Kickstarter so was fully aware of the higher cost and paid it willingly in the end. Almost didn't buy it purely on the ridiculous cost of shipping/game ratio. Hopefully videos like this will make companies rethink how much planning goes into these costs. Great vids as always.
Great job Alex, I have notice the rise of shipping especially out of the EU. In fact shipping is often 50-100% of the game price. Which my rule is. Not to back which means passing up great games due to cost.
People that are saying the company should have expected this and they should 'eat' the costs don't understand what they are saying. If you bought a house with a $2,000/month mortgage & 2 months later they were asking you for $6,000/month, you probably wouldn't just 'eat' the cost. You'd file bankruptcy. Most of these companies don't have the money to absorb this. So, if you force it on them, they will just go out of business and you'll get nothing. Their employees aren't going to sell their cars and mortgage their houses to get you a game. They'll say sorry, but bye. Then, no one is even around to deliver something to you.
@@jayceh1031 my point about the mortgage was just that money is finite. There is no secret stash of money for small companies to absorb $100k rise in expenses. So, your advocating that these companies just take a $100 to $200 from backers and if they can't fulfill it just go out of business? Giving them nothing? That is ridiculous. What you were advocating for is just no more small developers. If you can't absorb $100,000 increase in expenses, you shouldn't be created a Kickstarter according to this logic.
Even better: Wait for retail where they usually sell pretty much at the same price with one tenth of the shipping cost kickstarter. You have to take that shipping price into consideration at kickstarter vs retail at local store`s delivery price..
This plus the new VAT laws in EU and UK stopped me from backing some projects or only going in with one buck. Especially with board games that go to retrial there is no incentive to pay shipping plus VAT.
Totally understand the increment in cost. What i dont understand is why sometimes companies charge express level shipping fees but takes 2 mths to arrive. What's going to happen is ppl will start looking at shipping fees and VAT. Sometimes the shipping+tax cost almost as much as the game itself and its better off getting at retail.
@@BoardGameCo i meant that the shipping fee charged for the volume of the shipment is high enough for express shipping, but it takes 2 mths from date of shipping to my hands. For a similiar sized box, some companies charged 50, some 35, some 25, some even free(if there is a local distributor). It just baffles me since i ship goods from China all the time.
Monster Hunter PM just opened and their update flat out says they are not charging shipping at the moment. They will not charge shipping until closer to delivery time. This makes a lot of sense, it baffled me that these companies would charge a shipping fee 2+ years before delivery. A lot can happen in that time. Smaller projects, faster projects, these I can understand charging earlier, there is not likely to be a massive shift in the short term. E-Raptor's newest KS for bits is set to deliver in October - it's not unreasonable to charge right away.
I struggle with the idea of paying more for freight without understanding the full financial picture of these companies. If we are really expecting KS to be “investors” and not “pre-orders”, then actually treat us like investors. What are you spending the rest of the money on, and what trade offs did you consider before asking for more funding? This is further complicated in situations like Oathsworn, where had they hit their initial (or even second) timeline, the freight increase wouldn’t be an issue but now is. Am I supposed to pay more because they couldn’t hit their deadlines? At the end of the day the answer is going to be different for every KS as every KS is unique. Hopefully this scare leads to some meaningful change in terms of financial transparency but I doubt it will.
I have a few Kickstarters that I'm still awaiting fulfilment on, and I'm fretting that the added-shipping hammer will come down on all of them any day now. But I do feel really bad for anyone who made the choice to launch their Kickstarter now, and they're the first ones to take an honest look at shipping estimates. I was just looking at a KS yesterday from a truly independent (maybe even self-) publisher, and almost every comment was about the shipping. I particularly remember one comment, "I guess this game is for the U.S. only," because the shipping to EU was about 4x shipping to the contiguous US (VAT not included!). The campaign had already funded its modest goal on the first day, but I bet they'll only be half as successful as they would have been 6 months ago. People simply are not mentally prepared for what's going to be a substantial and protracted cost increase.
Excellent review on the global supply challenges. So many different factors combined to create a "perfect storm" to impact costs and availability of most products. We need to plan and cope with a different environment for a prolong period. Manufacturing and shipping costs will be higher for most products.
Thanks for the real talk. It's refreshing to see these videos and channels talking about real world problems. I know board games are our escape, but we can't just live in a bubble.
You are correct, no doubt. Unfortunately, whenever I waste any time reading people's comments on KS, it does not seem to me most of them are being rational about these things and complain about "a week later than announced" or "a full 5$ more than anticipated" and things like that. Obviously, there ARE things to complain about (an extra $80 fees for import taxes that were not announced IS a rip-off!), but sometimes people just like to complain for things for which companies are not responsible...
Ok so here's my two cents on this whole thing. When you do business and you open a preorder, ks campaign or anything similar you can't ever asks for more money. If there's some unforseen reason you have to take the hit and settle with less profit or even no profit at all, that's just the nature of the game. but I do understand the difficulty and if it's absolutely necessary yes it's ok to ask for more but you also gotta give choices. People that want to pay can pay and people that do not want to pay or can't pay doesn't have to pay, or people that just want a refund must also be given one. Of course I'm saying that this is only ok if there's absolutely no other way, not if it will reduce your profit by 75% or more. If that's the case then you absolutely should take the hit and plan better next time
Sure, that's your choice....but also remember that part of the risk is failed companies. If or when you don't get games you backed because you chose to take this approach....just remember "it's Kickstarter". I'm a huge fan of the free market....but I believe there's a balance in life, ask yourself how comfortable you are with your stance if it doesn't work in your favor?
@@BoardGameCo from the moment I back Kickstarter I know there's a chance that I might not get anything that's the nature of Kickstarter. So if the publisher really fails then so be it it's the risk I have signed up for. Just as how publisher have sign up to deliver the product after payment is completed :). After all if shipment drops or there's other things that increase the profit for the publisher they don't suddenly give back the money that we have paid right? I think we have to be really fair on this case, like you said do what you expect other to do to you, or something similar :)
Some of your choices can lead to bankrupt companies. And bankrupt companies might ship nothing to you - depending on what the court and bankruptcy manager deem appropriate. The whole point of bankruptcy proceedings is that the company cannot repay it's debts. The "loan" in this case is from us backers. Remaining assets will be used to pay off some state institutions and banks (their debt is preferred by law) and even that might only be a percentage if there are not sufficient funds. If after that there are not sufficient funds to ship the games to us - sux to be us. Remaining assets will he sold wholesale and partial refunds done with the proceedings. So you can insist on never paying additional shipping costs - but the consequences might be worse than paying another $20 bucks.
@@oerthling yup as I said I'm well aware of this and it's the risk of backing Kickstarter. Also what if I don't have the funds to pay extra? I mean the publisher doesn't have the fund to "pay" for the extra shipping cost, why is the customer expected to have them? Also how would you know that the publisher is literally out of money or simply doesn't want to get less profit
@@dav1dgear Without an independent audit we cannot know whether a publisher lies to us. You trust them or not. If a publisher needs more money to ship and the customer doesn't have the money (pandemic was bad for almost everybody after all) then either the game doesn't ship to that person or the fraction of customers who couldn't or wouldn't pay is small enough that this can be sufficiently covered by the majority that did pay.
I'm not sure if you guys across the pond saw but we had a massive blockage in the Suez canal with a cargo vessel virtually sitting sideways in the canal blocking traffic for about a week or so. The backlog of vessels as a result of this was crazy with thousands and thousands of containers not being able to reach their destination. This in turn no doubt had an impact on things as wel as covid. Great video but as a backer of lots of games I hope hope hope I don't see too many additional.costs coming my way. Fingers crossed!
I’m not at the end of the video yet, but something to add. If you delay shipping your games from China, you still have to pay storage costs. And since you don’t know how shipping prices will evolve, putting things of is a big gamble too. To be honest, I too will be more careful in what games I’m backing and I am calculating in additional costs for my outstanding pledges. A part of my budget is now reserved in case a company sends that dreaded update.
There is absolutely margin if you operate a company like a real business. You design a project, get funding to go-to-market (loans, investors, etc.), build a business model, sell it over the next several years, operating at a loss for a couple years until the business gets off its feet and build customers. Kickstarter has become a business model of pre-order in a snapshot of time that is not a sustainable business model. Ask a restaurant owner, a brick and mortar game shop, a web-based eCommerce site... there is a loss for the first few years until a customer base is established. That is entrepreneur 101. Kickstarter is rookie business practice. Stop using Kickstarter as a pre-order system. If your product is real, sell it like a real company. Or fail because there is no true market for your product, which happens every day in the real business world.
There's not only the rise in shipping costs, there's also a massive worldwide raw material shortage due to similar reasons. And many backers on projects I'm backing are behaving like spoiled children about the resulting delays. I'm talking MASSIVE outrage, threatening with class action suits, etc. The purpose of kickstarter is to SUPPORT PROJECTS YOU BELIEVE IN. None of the products in question are essential, it's all luxury. I can live with receiving a luxury item a couple months later due to A GLOBAL CRISIS. I'll live. The world does not revolve around me.
In normal years the peak for ocean freight leaving China is July and August and the demand comes from stores that want Christmas goods in their warehouses in September and October. This year I don't see it starting to settle down until November, which translates to goods arriving in the U.S. in January or February. There is not a problem with shipping empty containers back to China -- that has been an issue for as long as there has been a trade imbalance between the U.S. and China. The freight companies address this by offering below-cost rates so they can recoup some of the cost of moving those containers back to China. Part of the problem right now is that those containers are getting stuck in the U.S. for far longer than usual so that they are not available to be shipped back to China. The containers are not used for just the ocean portion of the movement of goods. When a ship reaches a U.S. port the containers are offloaded and then put on railroad cars or tractor-trailer flatbeds and then moved across the country. The problem is not just port congestion, but every other portion of the movement is also snarled, slowing the movement and tying up the containers for far longer than normal. I hate to say it, but the problem probably won't fully resolve until the U.S. is in another recession.
Now it makes sense why ISS Vanguard shipping was so high, I pledge just base plus character files and shipping 2 wave was 50% of the costs of the game. Asmodee seems right diversifying into digital games as there are no hidden costs.
Ludus Magnas did that again with Dungeonology and that was the last straw for me. I am very understanding of mistakes but repeated offenses and the way they handled it was unacceptable imo. I hope they do better moving forward but I'll wait for that before backing any more from them.
@@BoardGameCo Yeah they only offered 2 wave shipping with cost estimates clearly labelled under a "2-Wave Shipping" banner on their campaign page, and then backers paid for it in the PM shortly after the campaign as one would expect. But then midway through the fulfillment they requested 2nd wave shipping payments acting like it wasn't part of the original shipping payment... and then they held your pledge hostage once again until it was paid. Never once on their campaign page or in any updates prior to that did they ever mention that there would be a 2nd shipping charge. Seeing as 2-wave shipping was the only option and the shipping table had that "2-Wave Shipping" banner.. it makes zero sense that the original estimates and charges would have been for wave 1 only. And if (for some illogical reason) that was their intent.. the whole thing was very misleading at best.
Good video on the topic to discuss this issue. I'm one of the backers from AC brotherhood of Venice. It was my first Kickstarter that I backed 3 years ago. Since then I backed 6 more games, but unfortunately haven't received anything yet. All the projects have been delayed, which I know already is very common for a Kickstarter, but the pandemic did hit hard on all of them. I want a taste of what's like to hold your funded boardgame in your hands 🙌🏻 I am really looking forward to the delivery of AC BoV, because I'm a fan of the classic Assassin's Creed games so I really don't mind playing the extra fee for transportation, so I can play the game this year hopefully 😁
Ideally that should be an option as well, but it's still tricky because they may have already produced the game, and then of course there's the Kickstarter fees.
@@BoardGameCo As they don't really have a leg to stand on, you have a contract with them, they can't not give you yours and give other people (who paid) theirs - basically it's a compromise for both sides, neither want it but neither side wants to pay the extra.
Pretty sure with Ludus Magnus and Black Rose Wars, I got my core game at the same time as everyone else, then it was only when the 2nd wave stretch goals shipped they asked for more money. I chose not to pay extra and I got my 2nd wave immediately after those that paid the extra. Sure, I was put to the back of the queue effectively but it in no way felt like they were holding the games hostage. Plus the wait was not unreasonable at all. Rather than games become more expensive, companies would perhaps benefit from making games with a small scope and far less kickstarter bloat. Not every project should be a $99 minimum buy in, with all in's costing multiple hundreds, but this seems to be the trend over the past 5yrs (maybe more). Not only is the cost prohibitive as a backer of these mammoth projects, but also shelf space is at a premium and when you are looking at projects taking up 1 or two complete kallax cubes of shelf space, I have to give those games a hard pass now.
I don't disagree, but at the end of the day the market supports the bloated games, people buy them and want them... And show less interest in more reasonable smaller offerings
@@BoardGameCo I do wonder how long it can last. People only have so much room on shelves, unless they are selling them off on the aftermarket. But yeah more often than not I see people clamouring for more more more.
Spot on Alex! People in genreal do not realize some things that are out of a companie's control. I totally understand the shipping problem and I have no issues with helping out any of the board game companies that need an extra bit ao cash to cover unforseen costs due to ths situation we have faced over the past year. I know in estimating costs, companies look at future costs to come to a target for a final cost, it happens all the time but just like lumber, no one saw this container problem coming. You are correct, it is how a company approaches the crisis that ultimately decides how the consumer justifies the reason to pay a little extra.
Their is still hope, from several game companies they heard that shipping prices are still going to hike up month after month until next year. To the point that the price of Shipping via ship with surpass shipping via Air. Shipping via Air has always been considered expensive, but even during this pandemic it actually stayed relatively in the same spot. I have gotten notice from two games I backed in 2019, that they are thinking about switching to Air shipping because it will be cheaper and less of a hassle then Shipping via ship.
Ok, but 2 caveats: 1) that still involves a rise in shipping costs 2) that prices for air mail remained stable might be connected to less people flying. So possibly airlines had extra freight capacity for the flights that still happened (and planes can't be left standing around - that's damaging to them AFAIK). So while air freight will perhaps replace some container shipping for games, it will still be more costly than before the pandemic. And I guess this will be easier for smaller projects. Shipping Frosthaven is unlikely to be an easy transfer from container bro airplane. That's a lot of pallets and those games are dense (thus heavy).
This may be a ridiculous question, but I'm curious as a collector myself..... Are the lights on your shelf that are shining on your games going to fade the ink on the box covers? Do you only put those lights on for limited times, do they run all the time? Does this matter to you? :o
@@BoardGameCo I imagine many lights we use in our households wouldn't bleach the box covers like the sun would (I've seen some boxes in storefronts hideously discolored), but it's something that is on my mind :P Thanks for the reply, the great vids, and keep it up :) Love your positivity and objectivity in your vids
I like that you always propose probable solutions to real problems. 👍 I think you realize this, but you are a influencer in the gaming community, what you say, propose, and do, can and does have an impact in our community. You are a positive voice, keep up the great work! 🙂
I think that they should have two pledge managers. 1 early on to finalize the product order and 2 when the product is ready to ship and they open it again to pay for shipping
Thanks for the great videos, to both you and Jesse. It’s good to make sure people are aware that this is happening. Who knows, maybe it’ll lead to less vitriol in the comments sections of KS. Maybe. Sidenote: Alex, can we expect an updated ISS Vanguard video from you soon? Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on the changes in the new prototype!
Very delicate subject, handled with cautious and sincere words. Thanks for sharing those words Alex and I think you and Jesse are right that maybe board games should be more expensive to cover all the blood, sweat and tears that went into creating them.
I live in Australia shipping is bad. Always has been but the costs have become annoying. I know I love the trend of print and plays that you can back a game and print it here. Yes it'll cost me $40 to do it nicely but that's cheaper than the $100 to get the game with exchange rates and shipping.
@Matt Taylor I bought a laminator and I look for deals on sheets. It's amazing how cheaply you can make a good looking game compared to getting it sent here.
I find it laughable that there are so many backers yelling to do manufacturing locally for future projects. As if Yes paying 200-300% for shipping is going to be less than paying 500-600% more for the game.
Hi Alex Tough to predict where shipping prices will go, but the problem has certainly been around for months. Indeed we had our own (self-selected) problem with Brexit, with a mad dash by many companies to panic buy prior to the end of the transition period, which drove shipping problems via this increased volume. Those problems were then compounded by new forms / rules, which had been introduced at very short notice. On that backdrop, we then had Covid and the global shipping issues. Gulp! It was a mess, and some businesses will feel it still is. We've certainly had to pay close attention to taxes and shipping, as VAT is now most definitely payable on KS and other crowdfunding purchases (it always was, but I've no doubt many dodged this respobnsibility). We're probably paying as much attention to shipping estimates and the definition of 'UK/EU friendly', as we are the games themselves! Sometimes the company is upfront and has no efficient route in, resulting in eye-watering shipping costs, with these typically dissuading us from backing. In other instances the companies have ignored the issues and not called it out in the campaign, with one recent instance landing some all-in backers with a £100 extra bill to receive the game, whilst After the Empire publishers only added the details on the last day or two of the campaign, after plenty of requests from the start. That late update said UK backers would have to pay VAT on top, which is an extra 20% on the cost of the game (and shipping). It's those surprises that I would rail against. I absolutely hate hidden costs that should have been known at the time... unexpected costs are indeed something where I am more sympathetic
Its good that you discuss a problem like this. What are your thoughts though for the latest Level99 Millennium Blades Collusion project, that they ask 19$ (shipping and taxes(!)) to send a free errata pack of 40 cards they print wrong?
Great analysis of the shipping situation. I totally understand the perspective of people who are upset at having to pay more for shipping after having paid for a game. Personally, I don't mind paying an extra $10 to resolve a situation that could not reasonably have been foreseen. That's a much better outcome than the company going out of business and not producing any more games.
When I wrote about it some user attack me... Is just the reality shipping cost increase like hell and now also EU/UK VAT... Games workshop already increase the price...
Diea Games asked for $15 per core box for Euthia:Torment of Resurrection which is not bad at all seeing as the shipping cost was already low for a 12kg/26.5lb game. A very little amount have asked for a refund since most see just how good Diea Games is doing. Not just that, at this point over 100 people (out of 4K backers) have given them extra money including me
Thx for this video Alex ... it does help understand the high cost of shipping on the game I had previously contacted you about... I ended up not backing A.D.E.L.E because the shipping was so high but at least they were up front on the costs.... may still consider late pledge... I have no will power either... :-(
You see Monster Hunter PM just launched and they’re collecting all but shipping up front. Assume this will be the new norm for the PM process to charge shipping closer to delivery.
Really not feeling good about how many large, heavy campaigns I have unfilled right now. Certainly got me rethinking active campaigns right now or backing things going forward.
Increased freight cost has been common knowledge and taken into account in retail financial plans for over a year. Maybe small guys did not have same foresight but knowable nonetheless.
There's a difference between anticipating a 100% price increase and a 500% price increase...and a difference in being able to eat such significant unanticipated costs or not.
Just to be clear, this isn't a Kickstarter only problem. This is going to affect retail as well, the reason Kickstarter is trickier, is unlike retail, you pay for it in advance.
@@jodiahquincy2693 The games had to get to retail first. Via the same way a kickstarter game gets to a fulfillment centre. It is exactly the same issue. The issue that is discussed in this video has nothing to to with UPS/courier type local shipping, it is frieght shipping in bulk from one continent to another. Normally it doesn't come up in Kickstarter as the cost of this part of shipping is included in the base cost for the game - the values talked about in kickstarter campaigns are 90% to do with local fulfllment shipping. Just like your retail version of the game from your flgs or region based webstore, the cost of them getting the game to their warehouse is included in the base rrp of the game. the shipping form them to you via UPS is a different cost (some times 0 if "free" shipping is offered, but again this is free to you, someone paid it). What boardgame co is saying is that RRP is going to go up - it is a ripple effect, once stock of "pre frieght shipping crisis" games have gone down, the cost for companies to restock amazon/flgs with retail copies of games is going to go up.
Not just KS, but preorders as well. The delays make it difficult to put money down upfront. Why spend money on a game that may or may not be out for 2+ years when you can buy a second hand game now? Especially from Boardgameco.
Hey Alex, once again a super thoughtful video on an important issue. I think our outrage is linked to our expectations. When our expectations of KS were still just backing new & small companies in the hope of a great product seeing the light of day, this would have been less of a problem. But because KS has become the pre-order store in many a people's view*, our expectations have shifted and thus our outrage is higher and people will not stand for it. *personal view is that it's always a back, not a buy.... unless it's a company that has been around for at least a decade. Yes, CMON & Stronghold - I AM looking at you. 😉
As someone who would rather buy $30 worth of more board games to hit free shipping from miniature market or boardgameco (etc), i hate the idea of paying even more for shipping( after already paying for shipping or expect X, not X+++). I do understand some of the reasons, thanks to you and quack, so I'm willing to pay a little more for shipping. But! It's gotta be A) reasonable and B) an option to cancel and get most (95%+) of your money back. The only reason i get kickstarter games vs waiting for retail, is either getting extra content and/or getting it cheaper than MSRP. I factor shipping into this equation vs free shipping at retail. I have to plan on future shipping cost (which is already about $100 for 6 kickstarters), if this is expected to double then i need to know this from those 6 kickstarters as soon as possible, and i ought to have an option to cancel. As consumers we have to be aware that we still need to pay X amount in shipping for kickstarters we already paid for, this reminds me why i shouldn't back an upcoming kickstarter since i already know i have to budget for previous KS's shipping in the coming month(s). Thanks for the video! Time to back less and less kickstarters.. 😫
profit margins will always be low in businesses which would be perceived as "cool" from a teen's perspective (formative years in general). competition is high and entry level is low (Beyond The Sun comes as brilliant project made by 1st time designer). there will always be a 20yr something or somebody from developing country able to undercut production costs without need to yet support family, mortgage and other adult expenses driving pursuit of career making increasingly more money.
Alex, I think fright shouldn’t be charged until its necessary. Specially considering all the uncertainties on game development, production and overall delays. If the companies opted to charge it sooner, I sincerely expect them to take the involved risks.
This is what we get for using crowd funding like Kickstarter, Gamefound, etc. We are not buying a game. We are not even pre-ordering a game. As has been stated elsewhere, we are INVESTING in the game. That includes the design process, the productions process, AND the shipping. We like to pretend this is a pre-order, and that might be how it is gift-wrapped, but that is not what it is. There are examples of companies going bankrupt, and crowd funders losing their "investment." KS is NOT a pre-order. There is nothing guaranteed in a KS. When we invest in a system like this, it is no different than investing in the stock market. It is a total gamble because we don't have, or take the time, to get the full information. Hopefully a lesson is learned here and people start backing games that are produced in North America. If more consumers did that, then eventually producers would respond. There are already companies that do make games in the USA and make money. Ludofact is an example. Companies like WoTC/Hasbro produce their CARDBOARD in the USA, which is totally possible. If more did this, there could be a paradigm shift in manufacturing perceptions. IIRC, Terraforming Mars was produced in the USA. Another thing: Wood tokens are similar in price to plastic tokens: stonemaiergames.com/wood-vs-plastic-the-facts-about-custom-tokens/ Terra Mystica is a beautiful game. It, and games like it, could EASILY be produced in NA or the EU. There are MANY games that don't use plastic, and in many cases, wood components can replace the plastic. But wood cannot replace the miniatures. I know that most of you are all about miniatures. I know that the plastics come from other sources, and it will take time for manufacturing to be set up in NA, but it CAN happen. I can't find the post, but somebody else said, if XBox can be made in Mexico, then plastics can be make in North America as well. Hopefully this shipping crisis wakes people up.
THIS. This is why I like your videos, you are not afraid to give your opinions and not only game reviews! Great Job (again)!
Thanks Frederic :)
@@BoardGameCo
Read another article about shipping and says that late 2022 or 2023 things will get better. They should probably delay production.
Hi, as a backer, i liked the way the creator of necromolds (kickstarter necromolds-monster-battles/posts/3196099) asked people to help him to endure the 10k $ shipping extra.
Being transparent was very important to me ;)
I'm guessing those with large collections will finally get to play more of the games they already own.
That is what I was thinking.
I can appreciate that none of the game companies on Kickstarter could have predicted Covid or it's impact on shipping and I sympathize with them in that regard. That said, some companies have made bad business decisions which have been exacerbated by these crises and they just want to blame the crises. Those game companies still need to be held accountable for their mistakes.
I don't disagree with the concept but also understand at a certain point "held accountable" means the company goes under and no one gets their games.
I think this is just really bringing it back home, that KS is not a sure thing. I have already, in the past, on 3 occasions, had to send more money after already paying for everything to get a product shipped. In one case, had I not immediately sent $100 I would never have received the product as the day after they shipped things they declared bankruptcy.
This is really the perfect time for folks to walk away from KS, or at least be more cautious. We have all become so used to KS being such a reliable (mostly) experience, that a few months delay for production was common, but not a few months delay or extra charges before something ships out. I cannot afford to send extra money to numerous backed KS games, just to ensure that I receive what I have pledged for.
I really hope we don't hit a situation, where a year from now, we are still waiting for Wonderland's War, or even a second year delay on my Cthulhu Wars stuff that I ordered a year ago now. All of a sudden, traditional retail release games are going to see a renaissance of attention.
Thing is its not just a Kickstarter thing, those traditional retail release games are also going to get a price hike, because the companies that make the games still need to ship the games to those retailers. If those companies can't pay those extra costs, you will see less games sold in retail.
This is just hitting KS earlier, but will hit everyone.
@@BoardGameCo I do not doubt this, yet traditional retail channels still have loads of games that have been made and are just waiting to ship. I would guess Asmodee also has an easier time getting passage on a ship than a 2 person KS team. Regardless, my point remains that this is the time to enjoy the games you have and leave KS alone for a while. It would be hard for me to back games in the coming months when I see that everything that should have been delivered months ago, is still sitting at a dock somewhere waiting for a berth on a ship.
Totally agree. Kickstarter have always posed a small risk. It’s not a guarantee, you are first and foremost investing in something that is not a sure thing. There are many things that can and will go wrong.
I agree. We are seeing KS prices soaring and shipping costs right along with them. And despite the higher costs I see delays on top of delays. The world is a mess right now, and this is the consequence of shoddy infrastructure.
Unbroken was a game that had similar issues. I was lucky to get my copy, many people were held hostage in return for more shipping fees.
In the end my wife and I decided to stop backing kickstarter and Gamefound games. At least until the world has returned to some semblance of order.
But don't worry Alex, we will still anxiously waiting for what's next on your channel. We love your honesty and deep conversations on the business and their practices.
Just to clarify, Shipping is the cost to ship your individual game from the Hub to your Home. Freight is the cost to ship all of the games to all of the hubs around the world. Shipping is normally paid by the customer (it is sometimes subsidized by the creator) and Freight is paid for by the creator / game company.
I need to understand more about the figures from Triton Noir before agreeing to pay more. They raised $1.4M CAD = $1.15 M USD in the Kickstarter campaign and I am sure they pulled in more in the Pledge Manager.
They posted the following statement in their update: "When we committed to absorbing the $70,500 surplus ($ 105,000 - $ 34,500), we were not only aware that we would not make any profit on Kickstarter sales, but also that we would lose money. Absorbing the new surplus of $53,175 ($ 158,175 - $ 105,000) would put Triton Noir at risk."
It seems very sketchy that a surprise $70K expense could wipe out all of the profit margin from their campaign. The only way that this is the case is if they have been paying themselves salaries out of the proceeds.
Agreed on most counts...but why wouldn't they pay themselves salaries out of the proceeds? Is the proposal that they work for free?
@@BoardGameCo Because they have a game company that sells other games. Their entire salaries should not be coming from this Kickstarter. Are you familiar with corporate accounting and how employees are charged to projects? Only the time the employees actually spend on the project should be charged to it.
Are they doing the same on V-Commandos? It really makes me want to cancel my V-Commandos pledge. This is why most game companies use contractors except for a few individuals.
I admire the way that Succubus Publishing handled this in their first KS campaign. When it got to the end after 3 years, they were short by $80K for shipping (they had promised free shipping and costs went up over the 3 years). They went around pitching their product and secured investors to provide the funds, shipped the games to backers and reviewers (believing in their product), and launched a new campaign to make themselves and their investors whole.
Triton Noir now owns an asset that backers have fully paid for (it now exists because we funded it). They could do the same with investors (or a loan) and launch a very profitable reprint campaign (all development costs are already paid for and only manufacturing and shipping costs would apply). Asking backers for the money is the easy (lazy) way.
@@Thomas-kx9op Succubus Publishing is a rare breed. Appreciate the company and everything you and CrimsonSun have done. All together you have easily made it a project worth being a part of. Outstanding.. just outstanding work. I just wanted to thank you. 👏
@@Thomas-kx9op Oh that's fair, I thought you were implying they shouldn't get paid, as opposed to saying it shouldn't fully come from this.
You made a good point here!
This has pretty much sealed the deal of me backing any kickstarters for the foreseeable future with the exception of an expansion to some game I already love. But I'm not backing any new IP's or taking a risk on any games until this blows over.
"When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, 'Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping. '"
That's the one :)
Alex, what do you think if you anticipated on higher pricepoint of a container and the price goes down. Do the they have - in your opinion - to pay you back the excess?
This is a really great question!!! Its great that the the board game KS you tubers are coming out in support of the companies (best way to explain it without trying to be offensive, cause i love Alex). I’d really love that to be discussed in this. Shipping prices go up, you pay more. But whats the opinion on if the shipping cost goes down and these companies have charged more than they should. Will they give refunds? Probably not.
Also, @boardgameco, does your opinion for this apply to big companies like CMON?
That's a complicated question :) I'll be addressed it in the week in review this coming Saturday :)
@@BoardGameCo its a very complicated question, i agree. I was less angered by your video (cause its you) than Quakalopes. It seems like a flag is being put up to “help the BG creators” because of this monstrous problem that is affecting all sorts of industries, which is fine, and i would help out if its like $10 or so more. I’m not concerned with that. But if that happens, its gotta go the other way. Creators should make money off their product, 1000%. But I dont want to see them making money off of shipping costs when and if prices suddenly come way down. THAT, would be hypocritical.
I look forward to your saturday video! :D
If they don't it's the usual double standard
That would be the ethical thing to do, but I don’t even know if it’s possible post kickstarter to refund an amount of money? I’d be ok with a discount coupon for your next purchase. Or maybe a general ks coupon, if that is a thing?
Let me tell you a recent story. I am a professional painter, we were doing an enamel job, and not because of anything we did the product failed. Granted the paint company refund and give us new paint. We will not be compensated for the 160 hour of lost labor, that we will have to do again. Now am I going to make the customer pay more? Nope, they had an expectation that I sold them on. I am going back to do all the work, and while it sucks to loose money on a job, one happy customer is worth it to me, honor your promise its how I expect to be treated. Good luck everyone.
Absolutely....but what if all your paint jobs this year had that happens? Companies eat individual costs left right and center.....but we are talking about a different level of hit than what you're describing.
@@BoardGameCo Let me make a point in this, if you knew supply was having a problem, ie you know started a KS while in a pandemic then I would say that's on you. I will help those that KSed prepandemic. Those started during a pandemic, while knowing that supply lines were already being affected. I have way less sympathy for. They knew things were bad. To answer your question, I would quit using that product, and honestly, I may never uses that product again.
I’m not sure I’ve seen another industry where consumers compensate for losses of producers. In pretty much every other industry poor planning or unexpected risks can tank a company and it will usually be replaced by another. If they don’t raise prices because they want to ensure more units are sold but then later need to raise prices to deliver the good purchased...it goes against every business principle I have learned or lived. During this pandemic I guess we can say it’s an extraordinary situation that can prove fatal to an industry that’s generally running on lower margins. I’m happy to support the ones that were hit but I don’t accept this for Kickstarter campaigns that will launch in the 2nd half of the year. Those need to raise prices and need to learn from other campaigns that have unexpectedly struggled. The risk needs to be part of the estimates now.
I'm going to reply to this in the week in review video on Sat :)
There have always been struggling campaigns. I've backed many of them. I don't think anyone will ever learn to make campaigns fool-proof. The weirdest part is that even those who have 3-5 previous successful campaigns, can still start to fail all of their future ones. You are never safe, because the reasons why they are failing are usually because the companys are run poorly but survive on borrowing money. A not too uncommon method is to use your new kickstarter money to pay for the previous kickstarter fulfillment. It gives an illusion of a working kickstarter company, but will crash and burn sooner or later.
While I agree that KS campaigns in the future should hopefully account for this, I'd strongly disagree with your first point. No matter how much people want to treat Kickstarter campaigns as a normal way of doing business, this is an investment. Even for those people who've never gone in with their buddy on an investment of a business and then have them needing to come back for more to stay afloat, I'm sure that several of you have had contractors quote a price on building a house or doing a large repair, and then having to pay more than that quote when issues were found.
since you're basically an investor, investing in startups is exactly like this. You might not get your expected ROI, but if a company is about to go down and there's a chance you can get some pay out for minimum extra investment, you can be sure you'll fund them if the math works out.
it follows through the entire investment cycle. because we're essentially decentralized crowd source investment, if we aren't paid or they missed their number, their series B is in jeopardy so most companies work to hit target and pay out (in games). People that don't think they can continue to receive investment or hit their goals disappear taking the money with them.
Yeah. Kickstarter is not a store, it is an investment platform. It has just generally felt like a pre-order from a store as far as board games go. Until now.
Love the conversation. I’ve looked at crowdfunding as a “pre-purchase” of something that does not yet exist - there’s a risk inherent to committing so early in a project lifecycle. Now it feels like we are being asked to assume more and more of the risks. What is prices had swung the other way, what if we were living in the era of uber cheap shipping, cheap printing / cardboard / plastic, do we believe any of those projects would have given us some money back? Not only are we not investors in those projects as we get no share of profits, business growth or other positive consequences yet we have to assume all/some of the risks? That sounds to me like the definition of a bad deal, but it makes a ton of sense why companies would LOVE that model.
Also, the lack of transparency in private companies behind those projects worries me. I am ALL for companies making a profit. But I also live in a world where some people never have enough money. “We cannot assume that additional cost” could mean well, our CEO won’t be able to purchase his fourth home to we’ll have to let go of some staff, to go out of business altogether. I dream of external trustworthy auditors being granted access to those organizations and able to report to backers. Opportunity for a new industry?
I'll cover that in my week in review as it's the most common question :)
CMON was delisted from the HKSE after their auditing firm posted a warning about a "going concern" regarding how the monies from multiple KS were processed through the books. CMON changed auditors (switching from Price Waterhouse Coopers to some Chinese firm). I'm not sure it's realistic to expect the level of transparency you're recommending.
This is precisely how I feel. Risk goes both ways. Backers effectively give the publishers a loan to produce the game. The larger project have large profit margins, if we are to believe Pete Shirey. To add to that, many companies have added 30 to 50 dollars since the beginning of the year in order to compensate for VAT, a cost not all of us must pay. Maybe small publishers deserve some consideration. On the other hand, I would at least be extraordinarily disappointed if a company like Awaken Realms asks for additional funds for shipping.
Perhaps publishers should consider joining forces to be able to face this situation together, as much as possible. I might be a little utopic, thinking that this is a possibility, but who knows, it might be and this might benefit all of us! As always, you have a fantastic way of tackling difficult subjects, well done, thank you!
They're trying, there is some room for small efficiencies there.
"I think we're seeing the fallout of Jessie being right."
Sorry Jessie. We can't allow you to talk about the future ever again.
I'm down for that.
@@BoardGameCo
Shipping won't get better until 2022 or 2023. We need smaller games and less bloat and worse case is cmon. Board games are around 300 all in and most non board gamers think that crazy. I think it is unfortunate, but all big box games might have to delay because most people backed these games thinking Shipping would be lower and if all these games need more money for shipping, then I might need to refund some. They need to get shipping money, when they are ready to ship and not 1 year or 2 years early. This probably would have been a problem eventually without the pandemic and hope maybe they might list shipping as TBA, until after production.
Maybe we will finally start seeing the economic incentive for companies to design boxes to fit the game as opposed to them being simply a large air filled advert for game shelves, after all in person purchases in retail stores are such a small proportion of sales now. My kallax will be very happy :)
My question is this: If it is reasonable to give the companies a pass due to changing situations, how long do we continue to accept the situation? Hopefully we can agree that if they are still behaving like this (delays and price increases) in 2 years then the company can be blamed for poor planning, poor communication or customer neglect. And if we can, what about 1 year? It has already been some time since this started.
I think this situation will lead to people being more careful about how they spend their money so essentially using ks less, which will lead to creators being more pessimistic in their pricing. So the prices will go up, people will back less in a self feeding loop. This will drive us to purchase more at retail… Long story short people will always spend their money but where they spend it will change. The answer to your question is I think for the moment it is reasonable for me to help out the creators, as Alex said this was a situation nobody could foresee. Going forward, no we won’t give them a pass, but the risk is already out there. It will factor into our decision to back anything ever again.
@@dultanur I feel similarly. I want my previously backed games and can understand paying more for shipping or waiting while they delay. But over the next year or more I will be more hesitant to back a project and instead spend most of my money at the local game store or online from items in stock.
As a first time publisher, I am feeling this right now. So many potential backers are scared off by the shipping costs, especially internationally. And then there is VAT in the EU and UK....
Yep, it's messy right now.
I really appreciate you among most of the board game channels I follow because of how direct and informative you are.
It really shows how well you do your research and compile information.
Thank you Leon, I really appreciate it.
Genuine question Alex - Do you think many companies would reimburse backers if shipping costs dropped dramatically after the fact?
Nope, I don't think they would. And I'm not advocating covering small increases, again see my response to Black Rose Wars....and yet there is a difference between increased costs, vs "oh dear lord no one could have seen this coming, this will bankrupt us" increased costs.
Being a creative professional myself I can empathize with that kind of work being under-appreciated and under valued, People in the industry will frequently comment how "I'm so thankful I'm getting to do what I love for a living, even if its not what I'd like to be paid." And seeing the amount of time/work/testing/and talent it blows me away how games can sell so cheap relative to the amount of creative energy that is put into them. it's unfortunate that this global shipping crisis will inadvertently hurt those people who have poured all of their creative talents into this space. This is a unique space, where event the "big" companies are small by comparison to other industries, and I hope the people who love and support this hobby, attempt to empathize with this unforeseen situation, and willingly either pay, or in some cases give back, to keep those creators in business.
Yep, that's the hope but certainly not a guarantee.
@@BoardGameCo for sure a hope, on the whole I've encountered more considerate/understanding people than not, in this hobby.
The company should buy freight derivatives with the shipping fees paid to ensure they are hedged against price rises. Easy.
That is actually incredibly smart, does such a thing exist? Freight futures is the best solution I've heard!
I've always wondered why companies charge shipping years before delivery, just reopen the PM just before delivery it will be very accurate. If they do that this problem goes away largely... Honestly I'm of the thinking shipping is shipping and if its ballooned its annoying but its understandable but really the practise of charging shipping years before delivery needs to stop.
It would improve it, it's not a bad idea.
I feel like it’s also the issue of adding a shipping price to the Kickstarter page itself.
Yeah I think no matter what they do it would be a lose lose situation. Charge in PM right after campaign closed? Well you get into this mess. Charge for shipping a month or two before you actually ship? People will complain why shipping is so high. feel like they were extorted, and demand refunds.
I mean you see it, Ive seen a few updates going up talking about that it might happen, and while a majority are understanding, there are quite a few who are not.
@@brycejarrett9211 Thats fine as long as its clearly a estimate, world changes happen, being charged a year or two before something ships is rolling the dice and hoping for six's
@@harmarize And those few who aren't can normally get there refunds... At the end of the day shipping is shipping you can pay it or not, but you can't change what it is and sadly it costs more right now so we pay more or pull out of products we've backed. I've never understood those in commonly served by hubs western countries complaining about shipping... Brazil with there 80% tax and shipping costing more than a pledge I get it, same with other RoW countries who are paying easily there pledge again but for us lucky to be served by the benefit of numbers reducing distribution costs its never more expensive than the cost of sending a shipment yourself from said country.
I'm curious about the potential outcomes for the situation in which a company "holds your game" hostage. Situation as described involves a company that cannot/will not cover the increased shipping cost and demands backers to pay the difference: 1] Backer pays and gets product; 2] Backer refuses and product shipped later; 3] Backer refuses and never gets the game. Follow-up question: can the company repatriate a product that it will not send to the backer and sell it to another party for the requested price? Will the primary backer be refunded their full pledge cost or absorb the KS fee?
Crowd-funding has essentially zero-protection for the consumer, as demonstrated by the standard hold-harmless release from liability that KS announces with each campaign as they pocket their 10% fee. I don't think any backer has any enforceable protection to redress hypothetical situation #3, but would appreciate it for someone to reply here if they know differently.
As an observation, I would respectfully disagree with the precept in reference to shipping cost shocks that "non one saw this coming". In truth, the pattern has been building for years, and COVID was an accelerant rather than a primary cause. Natural disasters, unstable regional governments, cyber attacks on logistic infrastructure and the potential for open conflict within the nine-dash line of the SCS could just as easily have broken a system with minimal or no extra capacity. Shipping containers and ships don't get built overnight, which is likely why elevated costs will continue in the foreseeable future. The backlog that currently exists will exacerbate the problem, threatening some shipping companies with insolvency that will continue a harmful cycle.
For too long, we've all benefited from the labor-cost arbitrage that has insulated us from the true price of the products we consume that cross oceans to our doorsteps.
Time to pay the Piper.
Great video, cogent thoughts and serious opinions for serious gamers everywhere. Thank you, Alex!
Update from Monolith today:
"Which brings us to the hot topic of the “moment”: the cost of freight /containers to our distribution hubs.
As some of you have probably already read here and there, things are not getting any
better. Let's not beat around the bush on the issue that makes backers shudder:
we will NOT be asking our backers to get their wallet out to absorb this substantial
additional cost.
Just as you were there for us during this post-BTM Kickstarter, it's only fair that we return the favor.
We are now waiting for a date when freight shipping to our distribution hubs can go ahead. This issue, already turbulent for a while, has recently worsened as provinces like Guangdong (which handles much of China’s shipping traffic) struggle with a Covid epidemic. So, we’ll be sending out Pledges as soon as we can."
To note, Guangdong is in a partial shutdown. Second, many KSs are ready to ship and have NO idea when they will.
Yep, saw this and was happy to see it.
The problem, especially with assassin's creed, is that you can excuse them because covid was not a thing when assassin's creed was funded, but then you look at v-commandos deluxe and they did nothing in that regard. Shipping is still 15/20 eur, the price of the game (since it seems factory shipping is 'hidden' in the game price rather than shipping) does not look outrageous. Probably is my Italian side speaking, but I am worried companies are now riding the issue (and in particular quackalope's video, every campaign is linking it), pretending everything is normal because they can just ask more money later.
I just finished typing the message and you mention price increase instantly. now I know your feeling of I have an update out today and they add a new pledge level tomorrow
The companies will absolutely ride the goodwill that Quackalope and I are buying them....but those $100,000 cost increases to their project are very very real. They've just been terrified to write these updates until everyone was doing it.
Since I started to back games on Kickstarter not so long ago, most of games I’m waiting now is actually late pledges. And I would only support additional shipping charges from companies, who didn’t charged me extra for late pledge. But if I’m already paying more, can’t see the reason I should care.
That's a very interesting point....I like it. I'll talk about it more this coming sat in the Week in Review
It makes me roll my eyes when I see people bemoaning shipping costs for big box board games kickstarters at the moment. However, I think part of the problem though is that there has been shipping price gouging over the last 10 years, particularly out of the US with the legislative changes that cripple the US postal service. As such, this has created an automatic suspicion that high shipping prices are price gouging and not due to other factors.
Surely the easiest solution is to hold off charging for shipping until you are prepping to ship your product.
I really appreciate that you make this kind of well thought out and thought provoking content
Glad you enjoyed.
Another point: if they hold off shipping now, and ship it later IF prices recover, they will still have to eat costs of storing the products until that time. This can be massive for climate controlled storage.
Thank you very much for taking the time to help people understand these unforseen costs. I'm one that will be paying extra to get my copy of Assassins Creed. I understand what they are asking and how hard it must be for them. Thank you sir!
Yep, good point, I should have talked about the storage too
And your great videos keep coming. Very insightful. This is as important as any review, if not more. Thank you for this one, Alex.
We are really passionate about this hobby and it’s also up to us to be supportive towards the struggles that companies and small publishers face.
With understanding, patience and empathy we’ll eventually get through this whole mess. Together is the key word. And I’m optimistic, I think overall we’re a supportive community.
One thing I would love to see is a discussion of how large game companies are. It seems that some people think many of these companies are multi million dollar companies with huge profit margins.
It would be fascinating for sure.
Wow, I've just read an update from Panic Roll (Townsfolk Tussle). In the update they tackle the topic of shipping increase. They estimated that they have to pay $100k more than they planned, and that they are going to cover it. I'm so sad I couldn't back their game, such an amazing stance. I encourage you to read the update since it also contains some data about particular regions shipping costs.
Oh, and they also linked this video there :D
Yep! Just read it now, good on them!
Let me ask you this since you've mentioned ignite, it was supposed to be released before the pandemic but had delay after delay, do they get a pass now that the shipping costs are higher? Should the customers cover the cost?
That's a very interesting question. I don't think it changes the answer, but I hear it being more frustrating.
Great message Alex and while I agree that no one could anticipate the mass effects of a global pandemic on the shipping industry I still think there's a 4th option for content creators. I understand most may not be able to absorb this added cost in shipping but I still feel they owe something back to their customers based on taking payment for a product they haven't provided. I think the 4th option is finding a way to compensate their backers in some form or fashion for helping take on that added cost. I guess this is more of a compromise, but in this situation that would make their backers more understanding at the very least to feel the companies are looking for some common ground rather than completely footing the bill to those that supported them.
This is why shipping prices in a backerkit is the way to do it and not charge at the Kickstarter collection time. Because shipping costs fluctuate a lot. So estimated shipping prices are different than set collected ones.
It helps, but could still be pushback based on people expecting one estimate and getting another.
Great video. Really appreciate your objectivity and tone. No easy answers. Wake up call for everyone in the industry. I read a great book years ago called “Who Moved My Cheese”. Some (creators, publishers, retailers and individual buyers) will adapt and flourish while others will disappear to be replaced by others. The great creators and publishers will survive in the short-term and will flourish in the long-term.
Absolutely agreed. There's definitely short-term goodwill that can help ease the problem, but long-term requires more than just Goodwill.
I wonder if anyone choosing to delay has to also pay for storage of products in a warehouse while they wait or if production is normally so near to shipping that very few are in this predicament. But it could be another factor in delaying the shipping.
Your most important statement is to promote generosity. Not financial generosity but generosity of spirit. We seem to be moving faster to a society of selfish and what we need is understanding and KINDNESS!
They absolutely do, I should have talked about that as well during the delay option.
There's a lot of games I will not back simply because I'm from NZ - so charges can be high - some other countries really get creamed . So if I was in the States and I got a $10 extra - that would be a relief - as we can get $50 more charge . I think some creators don't put effort in finding best solutions - I can buy a gigantic box filled with 10 big box games from Amazon - for cheaper than some KS quotes like $100 for 10kg - yet Australia next door gets quoted $30 . So basically the whole massive variability is a mystery to me ( I understand fulfillment centres etc ) - 1 KS quotes $40 shipping another $100 - yet they both weigh the same , have the same fulfilment countries - NZ has a big gaming community .
Then there's the mystery that some times crops up is cheaper to fly to another city with a 25kg bag , plus a 7kg walk on bag , than send $25kg by road or fly ( admittedly it includes deliver - but even depot to depot )
As for the price of KS - do not worry - they are coming thick and faster - didn't get that top IP - if will be beaten and improved upon down the road. Gamefound just sent me an email a few days ago - of so more huge ones coming - So their will be KS for everyone - plus great games do not need to be big- oldies are goldies . Plus should you back it!! - you can get free shipping down the road -as quoted by Alex. R
"When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, 'Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.'" ‐ Mr. Rogers
That's the one :)
Can a fictional character ever have been a boy?
I found the same on SFB. The shipping was higher than originally planned. Not sure how much covid played a part. There was a lot of grief on Kickstarter chat. To be clear I bought in after the Kickstarter so was fully aware of the higher cost and paid it willingly in the end. Almost didn't buy it purely on the ridiculous cost of shipping/game ratio. Hopefully videos like this will make companies rethink how much planning goes into these costs. Great vids as always.
Great job Alex, I have notice the rise of shipping especially out of the EU. In fact shipping is often 50-100% of the game price. Which my rule is. Not to back which means passing up great games due to cost.
yep, getting more and more expensive.
People that are saying the company should have expected this and they should 'eat' the costs don't understand what they are saying. If you bought a house with a $2,000/month mortgage & 2 months later they were asking you for $6,000/month, you probably wouldn't just 'eat' the cost. You'd file bankruptcy.
Most of these companies don't have the money to absorb this. So, if you force it on them, they will just go out of business and you'll get nothing. Their employees aren't going to sell their cars and mortgage their houses to get you a game. They'll say sorry, but bye. Then, no one is even around to deliver something to you.
So they should offer stock in the company.
@@jayceh1031 my point about the mortgage was just that money is finite. There is no secret stash of money for small companies to absorb $100k rise in expenses.
So, your advocating that these companies just take a $100 to $200 from backers and if they can't fulfill it just go out of business? Giving them nothing?
That is ridiculous.
What you were advocating for is just no more small developers. If you can't absorb $100,000 increase in expenses, you shouldn't be created a Kickstarter according to this logic.
Even better: Wait for retail where they usually sell pretty much at the same price with one tenth of the shipping cost kickstarter. You have to take that shipping price into consideration at kickstarter vs retail at local store`s delivery price..
This plus the new VAT laws in EU and UK stopped me from backing some projects or only going in with one buck. Especially with board games that go to retrial there is no incentive to pay shipping plus VAT.
Totally understand the increment in cost.
What i dont understand is why sometimes companies charge express level shipping fees but takes 2 mths to arrive.
What's going to happen is ppl will start looking at shipping fees and VAT. Sometimes the shipping+tax cost almost as much as the game itself and its better off getting at retail.
What do you mean about express shipping fees but 2 months?
@@BoardGameCo i meant that the shipping fee charged for the volume of the shipment is high enough for express shipping, but it takes 2 mths from date of shipping to my hands.
For a similiar sized box, some companies charged 50, some 35, some 25, some even free(if there is a local distributor). It just baffles me since i ship goods from China all the time.
@@rko3501 You are comparing shipping an individual package via the mail vs bulk shipping 1000s of boxes via an actual ship
I appreciated the “Act with Grace” that @Quackalope has also stressed and I whole hearted agree.
And bravo for the Mr Rogers reference.
Yep, we can be a force for good here...it's a messy situation and the world is still recovering.
Honestly such a fantastic video this is why I watch all of your contents. Such a genuinely great person. Wish I could play board games with you.
Appreciate it Tommy :)
There is a fourth option... move production to other locations so that you can ship locally rather than globally?
Monster Hunter PM just opened and their update flat out says they are not charging shipping at the moment. They will not charge shipping until closer to delivery time. This makes a lot of sense, it baffled me that these companies would charge a shipping fee 2+ years before delivery. A lot can happen in that time. Smaller projects, faster projects, these I can understand charging earlier, there is not likely to be a massive shift in the short term. E-Raptor's newest KS for bits is set to deliver in October - it's not unreasonable to charge right away.
Yep, makes sense to wait at the moment.
I struggle with the idea of paying more for freight without understanding the full financial picture of these companies. If we are really expecting KS to be “investors” and not “pre-orders”, then actually treat us like investors.
What are you spending the rest of the money on, and what trade offs did you consider before asking for more funding?
This is further complicated in situations like Oathsworn, where had they hit their initial (or even second) timeline, the freight increase wouldn’t be an issue but now is. Am I supposed to pay more because they couldn’t hit their deadlines?
At the end of the day the answer is going to be different for every KS as every KS is unique. Hopefully this scare leads to some meaningful change in terms of financial transparency but I doubt it will.
Wanting to see a breakdown is 100% reasonable
I have a few Kickstarters that I'm still awaiting fulfilment on, and I'm fretting that the added-shipping hammer will come down on all of them any day now. But I do feel really bad for anyone who made the choice to launch their Kickstarter now, and they're the first ones to take an honest look at shipping estimates. I was just looking at a KS yesterday from a truly independent (maybe even self-) publisher, and almost every comment was about the shipping. I particularly remember one comment, "I guess this game is for the U.S. only," because the shipping to EU was about 4x shipping to the contiguous US (VAT not included!). The campaign had already funded its modest goal on the first day, but I bet they'll only be half as successful as they would have been 6 months ago. People simply are not mentally prepared for what's going to be a substantial and protracted cost increase.
Excellent review on the global supply challenges. So many different factors combined to create a "perfect storm" to impact costs and availability of most products. We need to plan and cope with a different environment for a prolong period. Manufacturing and shipping costs will be higher for most products.
Thanks for the real talk. It's refreshing to see these videos and channels talking about real world problems. I know board games are our escape, but we can't just live in a bubble.
Appreciate it Dennis, I love board games, too much... But there are other things as well
You are correct, no doubt. Unfortunately, whenever I waste any time reading people's comments on KS, it does not seem to me most of them are being rational about these things and complain about "a week later than announced" or "a full 5$ more than anticipated" and things like that. Obviously, there ARE things to complain about (an extra $80 fees for import taxes that were not announced IS a rip-off!), but sometimes people just like to complain for things for which companies are not responsible...
Ok so here's my two cents on this whole thing. When you do business and you open a preorder, ks campaign or anything similar you can't ever asks for more money. If there's some unforseen reason you have to take the hit and settle with less profit or even no profit at all, that's just the nature of the game. but I do understand the difficulty and if it's absolutely necessary yes it's ok to ask for more but you also gotta give choices. People that want to pay can pay and people that do not want to pay or can't pay doesn't have to pay, or people that just want a refund must also be given one. Of course I'm saying that this is only ok if there's absolutely no other way, not if it will reduce your profit by 75% or more. If that's the case then you absolutely should take the hit and plan better next time
Sure, that's your choice....but also remember that part of the risk is failed companies. If or when you don't get games you backed because you chose to take this approach....just remember "it's Kickstarter".
I'm a huge fan of the free market....but I believe there's a balance in life, ask yourself how comfortable you are with your stance if it doesn't work in your favor?
@@BoardGameCo from the moment I back Kickstarter I know there's a chance that I might not get anything that's the nature of Kickstarter. So if the publisher really fails then so be it it's the risk I have signed up for. Just as how publisher have sign up to deliver the product after payment is completed :). After all if shipment drops or there's other things that increase the profit for the publisher they don't suddenly give back the money that we have paid right? I think we have to be really fair on this case, like you said do what you expect other to do to you, or something similar :)
Some of your choices can lead to bankrupt companies. And bankrupt companies might ship nothing to you - depending on what the court and bankruptcy manager deem appropriate.
The whole point of bankruptcy proceedings is that the company cannot repay it's debts. The "loan" in this case is from us backers. Remaining assets will be used to pay off some state institutions and banks (their debt is preferred by law) and even that might only be a percentage if there are not sufficient funds.
If after that there are not sufficient funds to ship the games to us - sux to be us.
Remaining assets will he sold wholesale and partial refunds done with the proceedings.
So you can insist on never paying additional shipping costs - but the consequences might be worse than paying another $20 bucks.
@@oerthling yup as I said I'm well aware of this and it's the risk of backing Kickstarter. Also what if I don't have the funds to pay extra? I mean the publisher doesn't have the fund to "pay" for the extra shipping cost, why is the customer expected to have them?
Also how would you know that the publisher is literally out of money or simply doesn't want to get less profit
@@dav1dgear Without an independent audit we cannot know whether a publisher lies to us. You trust them or not.
If a publisher needs more money to ship and the customer doesn't have the money (pandemic was bad for almost everybody after all) then either the game doesn't ship to that person or the fraction of customers who couldn't or wouldn't pay is small enough that this can be sufficiently covered by the majority that did pay.
I'm not sure if you guys across the pond saw but we had a massive blockage in the Suez canal with a cargo vessel virtually sitting sideways in the canal blocking traffic for about a week or so.
The backlog of vessels as a result of this was crazy with thousands and thousands of containers not being able to reach their destination.
This in turn no doubt had an impact on things as wel as covid.
Great video but as a backer of lots of games I hope hope hope I don't see too many additional.costs coming my way.
Fingers crossed!
I’m not at the end of the video yet, but something to add. If you delay shipping your games from China, you still have to pay storage costs. And since you don’t know how shipping prices will evolve, putting things of is a big gamble too.
To be honest, I too will be more careful in what games I’m backing and I am calculating in additional costs for my outstanding pledges. A part of my budget is now reserved in case a company sends that dreaded update.
There is absolutely margin if you operate a company like a real business. You design a project, get funding to go-to-market (loans, investors, etc.), build a business model, sell it over the next several years, operating at a loss for a couple years until the business gets off its feet and build customers. Kickstarter has become a business model of pre-order in a snapshot of time that is not a sustainable business model. Ask a restaurant owner, a brick and mortar game shop, a web-based eCommerce site... there is a loss for the first few years until a customer base is established. That is entrepreneur 101. Kickstarter is rookie business practice. Stop using Kickstarter as a pre-order system. If your product is real, sell it like a real company. Or fail because there is no true market for your product, which happens every day in the real business world.
What’s your business name?
There's not only the rise in shipping costs, there's also a massive worldwide raw material shortage due to similar reasons.
And many backers on projects I'm backing are behaving like spoiled children about the resulting delays. I'm talking MASSIVE outrage, threatening with class action suits, etc.
The purpose of kickstarter is to SUPPORT PROJECTS YOU BELIEVE IN. None of the products in question are essential, it's all luxury. I can live with receiving a luxury item a couple months later due to A GLOBAL CRISIS. I'll live. The world does not revolve around me.
In normal years the peak for ocean freight leaving China is July and August and the demand comes from stores that want Christmas goods in their warehouses in September and October. This year I don't see it starting to settle down until November, which translates to goods arriving in the U.S. in January or February. There is not a problem with shipping empty containers back to China -- that has been an issue for as long as there has been a trade imbalance between the U.S. and China. The freight companies address this by offering below-cost rates so they can recoup some of the cost of moving those containers back to China. Part of the problem right now is that those containers are getting stuck in the U.S. for far longer than usual so that they are not available to be shipped back to China. The containers are not used for just the ocean portion of the movement of goods. When a ship reaches a U.S. port the containers are offloaded and then put on railroad cars or tractor-trailer flatbeds and then moved across the country. The problem is not just port congestion, but every other portion of the movement is also snarled, slowing the movement and tying up the containers for far longer than normal. I hate to say it, but the problem probably won't fully resolve until the U.S. is in another recession.
"None of these options are palatable/pallet-able" might be the stealth pun of the year.
Now it makes sense why ISS Vanguard shipping was so high, I pledge just base plus character files and shipping 2 wave was 50% of the costs of the game.
Asmodee seems right diversifying into digital games as there are no hidden costs.
Ludus Magnas did that again with Dungeonology and that was the last straw for me. I am very understanding of mistakes but repeated offenses and the way they handled it was unacceptable imo. I hope they do better moving forward but I'll wait for that before backing any more from them.
Ouch, they did it again there?
@@BoardGameCo Yeah they only offered 2 wave shipping with cost estimates clearly labelled under a "2-Wave Shipping" banner on their campaign page, and then backers paid for it in the PM shortly after the campaign as one would expect.
But then midway through the fulfillment they requested 2nd wave shipping payments acting like it wasn't part of the original shipping payment... and then they held your pledge hostage once again until it was paid.
Never once on their campaign page or in any updates prior to that did they ever mention that there would be a 2nd shipping charge. Seeing as 2-wave shipping was the only option and the shipping table had that "2-Wave Shipping" banner.. it makes zero sense that the original estimates and charges would have been for wave 1 only. And if (for some illogical reason) that was their intent.. the whole thing was very misleading at best.
Feeling great that I dodged one of their latest campaigns, forgot the name even ._.
@@ShelfClutter yeah LMS has lost all of the trust equity I had in them.
Good video on the topic to discuss this issue.
I'm one of the backers from AC brotherhood of Venice.
It was my first Kickstarter that I backed 3 years ago. Since then I backed 6 more games, but unfortunately haven't received anything yet. All the projects have been delayed, which I know already is very common for a Kickstarter, but the pandemic did hit hard on all of them. I want a taste of what's like to hold your funded boardgame in your hands 🙌🏻
I am really looking forward to the delivery of AC BoV, because I'm a fan of the classic Assassin's Creed games so I really don't mind playing the extra fee for transportation, so I can play the game this year hopefully 😁
What about Option 4: Provide a full refund to all those backers who don't want to pay the increase ?
Ideally that should be an option as well, but it's still tricky because they may have already produced the game, and then of course there's the Kickstarter fees.
@@BoardGameCo As they don't really have a leg to stand on, you have a contract with them, they can't not give you yours and give other people (who paid) theirs - basically it's a compromise for both sides, neither want it but neither side wants to pay the extra.
Tackling a tricky topic well. Thank you for yet another good video
Pretty sure with Ludus Magnus and Black Rose Wars, I got my core game at the same time as everyone else, then it was only when the 2nd wave stretch goals shipped they asked for more money. I chose not to pay extra and I got my 2nd wave immediately after those that paid the extra. Sure, I was put to the back of the queue effectively but it in no way felt like they were holding the games hostage. Plus the wait was not unreasonable at all.
Rather than games become more expensive, companies would perhaps benefit from making games with a small scope and far less kickstarter bloat. Not every project should be a $99 minimum buy in, with all in's costing multiple hundreds, but this seems to be the trend over the past 5yrs (maybe more). Not only is the cost prohibitive as a backer of these mammoth projects, but also shelf space is at a premium and when you are looking at projects taking up 1 or two complete kallax cubes of shelf space, I have to give those games a hard pass now.
I don't disagree, but at the end of the day the market supports the bloated games, people buy them and want them... And show less interest in more reasonable smaller offerings
@@BoardGameCo I do wonder how long it can last. People only have so much room on shelves, unless they are selling them off on the aftermarket. But yeah more often than not I see people clamouring for more more more.
Spot on Alex! People in genreal do not realize some things that are out of a companie's control. I totally understand the shipping problem and I have no issues with helping out any of the board game companies that need an extra bit ao cash to cover unforseen costs due to ths situation we have faced over the past year. I know in estimating costs, companies look at future costs to come to a target for a final cost, it happens all the time but just like lumber, no one saw this container problem coming. You are correct, it is how a company approaches the crisis that ultimately decides how the consumer justifies the reason to pay a little extra.
Their is still hope, from several game companies they heard that shipping prices are still going to hike up month after month until next year. To the point that the price of Shipping via ship with surpass shipping via Air. Shipping via Air has always been considered expensive, but even during this pandemic it actually stayed relatively in the same spot. I have gotten notice from two games I backed in 2019, that they are thinking about switching to Air shipping because it will be cheaper and less of a hassle then Shipping via ship.
Ok, but 2 caveats:
1) that still involves a rise in shipping costs
2) that prices for air mail remained stable might be connected to less people flying. So possibly airlines had extra freight capacity for the flights that still happened (and planes can't be left standing around - that's damaging to them AFAIK).
So while air freight will perhaps replace some container shipping for games, it will still be more costly than before the pandemic.
And I guess this will be easier for smaller projects.
Shipping Frosthaven is unlikely to be an easy transfer from container bro airplane. That's a lot of pallets and those games are dense (thus heavy).
Yep, I've seen that, it's insane.
Great video, Alex. Thanks for helping bring out the awareness for the current logistics issues and being a voice for reasonable compassion.
Appreciated Evan :)
This may be a ridiculous question, but I'm curious as a collector myself.....
Are the lights on your shelf that are shining on your games going to fade the ink on the box covers? Do you only put those lights on for limited times, do they run all the time? Does this matter to you? :o
They only go up for when I do videos :) I imagine they won't have any effect but never thought about it.
@@BoardGameCo I imagine many lights we use in our households wouldn't bleach the box covers like the sun would (I've seen some boxes in storefronts hideously discolored), but it's something that is on my mind :P
Thanks for the reply, the great vids, and keep it up :) Love your positivity and objectivity in your vids
I like that you always propose probable solutions to real problems. 👍
I think you realize this, but you are a influencer in the gaming community, what you say, propose, and do, can and does have an impact in our community. You are a positive voice, keep up the great work! 🙂
Thank you, I really appreciate it.
I think that they should have two pledge managers. 1 early on to finalize the product order and 2 when the product is ready to ship and they open it again to pay for shipping
That would be ideal.
Thanks for the great videos, to both you and Jesse. It’s good to make sure people are aware that this is happening. Who knows, maybe it’ll lead to less vitriol in the comments sections of KS. Maybe.
Sidenote: Alex, can we expect an updated ISS Vanguard video from you soon? Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on the changes in the new prototype!
Very delicate subject, handled with cautious and sincere words. Thanks for sharing those words Alex and I think you and Jesse are right that maybe board games should be more expensive to cover all the blood, sweat and tears that went into creating them.
Not that I'm advocating for that....but if they did go up, I'd understand it.
I live in Australia shipping is bad. Always has been but the costs have become annoying. I know I love the trend of print and plays that you can back a game and print it here. Yes it'll cost me $40 to do it nicely but that's cheaper than the $100 to get the game with exchange rates and shipping.
@Matt Taylor I bought a laminator and I look for deals on sheets. It's amazing how cheaply you can make a good looking game compared to getting it sent here.
I find it laughable that there are so many backers yelling to do manufacturing locally for future projects. As if Yes paying 200-300% for shipping is going to be less than paying 500-600% more for the game.
Yeah. I don't know the numbers, but my gut says the cost of non-chinese manufacturing would outweigh the savings on shipping...
Ya, the costs don't justify it yet.
Hi Alex
Tough to predict where shipping prices will go, but the problem has certainly been around for months. Indeed we had our own (self-selected) problem with Brexit, with a mad dash by many companies to panic buy prior to the end of the transition period, which drove shipping problems via this increased volume. Those problems were then compounded by new forms / rules, which had been introduced at very short notice. On that backdrop, we then had Covid and the global shipping issues. Gulp! It was a mess, and some businesses will feel it still is.
We've certainly had to pay close attention to taxes and shipping, as VAT is now most definitely payable on KS and other crowdfunding purchases (it always was, but I've no doubt many dodged this respobnsibility). We're probably paying as much attention to shipping estimates and the definition of 'UK/EU friendly', as we are the games themselves! Sometimes the company is upfront and has no efficient route in, resulting in eye-watering shipping costs, with these typically dissuading us from backing. In other instances the companies have ignored the issues and not called it out in the campaign, with one recent instance landing some all-in backers with a £100 extra bill to receive the game, whilst After the Empire publishers only added the details on the last day or two of the campaign, after plenty of requests from the start. That late update said UK backers would have to pay VAT on top, which is an extra 20% on the cost of the game (and shipping). It's those surprises that I would rail against. I absolutely hate hidden costs that should have been known at the time... unexpected costs are indeed something where I am more sympathetic
Yep, I debated talking about brexit as well but wanted a clearer message.
@@BoardGameCo FWIW It's something we try to avoid talking about! It's 'somewhat' a divisive subject over here (British understatement alert)
Its good that you discuss a problem like this.
What are your thoughts though for the latest Level99 Millennium Blades Collusion project, that they ask 19$ (shipping and taxes(!)) to send a free errata pack of 40 cards they print wrong?
Great analysis of the shipping situation. I totally understand the perspective of people who are upset at having to pay more for shipping after having paid for a game. Personally, I don't mind paying an extra $10 to resolve a situation that could not reasonably have been foreseen. That's a much better outcome than the company going out of business and not producing any more games.
When I wrote about it some user attack me... Is just the reality shipping cost increase like hell and now also EU/UK VAT...
Games workshop already increase the price...
Yep, people won't like it...but it will be a part of our world for the next year or two.
Diea Games asked for $15 per core box for Euthia:Torment of Resurrection which is not bad at all seeing as the shipping cost was already low for a 12kg/26.5lb game. A very little amount have asked for a refund since most see just how good Diea Games is doing. Not just that, at this point over 100 people (out of 4K backers) have given them extra money including me
Thx for this video Alex ... it does help understand the high cost of shipping on the game I had previously contacted you about... I ended up not backing A.D.E.L.E because the shipping was so high but at least they were up front on the costs.... may still consider late pledge... I have no will power either... :-(
Yep, companies charging more now are doing it for a reason.
You see Monster Hunter PM just launched and they’re collecting all but shipping up front. Assume this will be the new norm for the PM process to charge shipping closer to delivery.
I think it has to be. It just makes sense.
Really not feeling good about how many large, heavy campaigns I have unfilled right now. Certainly got me rethinking active campaigns right now or backing things going forward.
Yep, completely agreed.
Its funny as I've been working on a board game so watching this was very helpful.... The dream Is for you to review it...
Increased freight cost has been common knowledge and taken into account in retail financial plans for over a year. Maybe small guys did not have same foresight but knowable nonetheless.
There's a difference between anticipating a 100% price increase and a 500% price increase...and a difference in being able to eat such significant unanticipated costs or not.
What Jonathan said. They've been rising, but the amount has been totally unanticipated.
Great video, this is giving me the opportunity to catch up on unplayed game, carry out more trades, less Kickstarter or buy fewer games.
Reminds me of "Unbroken"...(holding things hostage because of undercharging shipping). In that one, apparently charging $4 shipping was not enough!
Time to stop supporting kickstarter until shipping is reasonable again. This is ridiculous. I think Stormsunder like 50$ to ship for the base game.
Let's face it, kickstarter is too addicting to stop. But I will be more choosey. That mini better be worth 50$ shipping.
Just to be clear, this isn't a Kickstarter only problem. This is going to affect retail as well, the reason Kickstarter is trickier, is unlike retail, you pay for it in advance.
@@BoardGameCo Not if retail has the game in stock. They only use UPS so they don't have to worry about shipping container costs.
@@jodiahquincy2693 The games had to get to retail first. Via the same way a kickstarter game gets to a fulfillment centre. It is exactly the same issue.
The issue that is discussed in this video has nothing to to with UPS/courier type local shipping, it is frieght shipping in bulk from one continent to another.
Normally it doesn't come up in Kickstarter as the cost of this part of shipping is included in the base cost for the game - the values talked about in kickstarter campaigns are 90% to do with local fulfllment shipping.
Just like your retail version of the game from your flgs or region based webstore, the cost of them getting the game to their warehouse is included in the base rrp of the game. the shipping form them to you via UPS is a different cost (some times 0 if "free" shipping is offered, but again this is free to you, someone paid it).
What boardgame co is saying is that RRP is going to go up - it is a ripple effect, once stock of "pre frieght shipping crisis" games have gone down, the cost for companies to restock amazon/flgs with retail copies of games is going to go up.
Not just KS, but preorders as well. The delays make it difficult to put money down upfront. Why spend money on a game that may or may not be out for 2+ years when you can buy a second hand game now? Especially from Boardgameco.
Yep, it's going to be tougher and tougher out there.
@@BoardGameCo Did you like the plugin? 😉
Hey Alex, once again a super thoughtful video on an important issue.
I think our outrage is linked to our expectations.
When our expectations of KS were still just backing new & small companies in the hope of a great product seeing the light of day, this would have been less of a problem.
But because KS has become the pre-order store in many a people's view*, our expectations have shifted and thus our outrage is higher and people will not stand for it.
*personal view is that it's always a back, not a buy.... unless it's a company that has been around for at least a decade. Yes, CMON & Stronghold - I AM looking at you. 😉
As someone who would rather buy $30 worth of more board games to hit free shipping from miniature market or boardgameco (etc), i hate the idea of paying even more for shipping( after already paying for shipping or expect X, not X+++). I do understand some of the reasons, thanks to you and quack, so I'm willing to pay a little more for shipping. But! It's gotta be A) reasonable and B) an option to cancel and get most (95%+) of your money back.
The only reason i get kickstarter games vs waiting for retail, is either getting extra content and/or getting it cheaper than MSRP. I factor shipping into this equation vs free shipping at retail.
I have to plan on future shipping cost (which is already about $100 for 6 kickstarters), if this is expected to double then i need to know this from those 6 kickstarters as soon as possible, and i ought to have an option to cancel. As consumers we have to be aware that we still need to pay X amount in shipping for kickstarters we already paid for, this reminds me why i shouldn't back an upcoming kickstarter since i already know i have to budget for previous KS's shipping in the coming month(s).
Thanks for the video! Time to back less and less kickstarters.. 😫
profit margins will always be low in businesses which would be perceived as "cool" from a teen's perspective (formative years in general). competition is high and entry level is low (Beyond The Sun comes as brilliant project made by 1st time designer). there will always be a 20yr something or somebody from developing country able to undercut production costs without need to yet support family, mortgage and other adult expenses driving pursuit of career making increasingly more money.
Great video Alex, once again ! Thanks :)
Glad you enjoyed :)
Alex, I think fright shouldn’t be charged until its necessary. Specially considering all the uncertainties on game development, production and overall delays. If the companies opted to charge it sooner, I sincerely expect them to take the involved risks.
Very informative, thank you for posting this.
I doubt shipping costs will ever go down. Can companies prepay for shipping to lock in cheaper prices!?
Sadly not, it's the wild west...they cancel shipments to give to the current highest bidder.
Another reason to be super selective on kickstarter.
Even more so now yes.
20:12
Unfortunately I am not going to back some projects now because of this. It stinks for the smaller game makers but it's not a risk I want to take.
Return to Darktower is increasing the costs of retail copies to $125 to make up for those costs.
This is what we get for using crowd funding like Kickstarter, Gamefound, etc. We are not buying a game. We are not even pre-ordering a game. As has been stated elsewhere, we are INVESTING in the game. That includes the design process, the productions process, AND the shipping. We like to pretend this is a pre-order, and that might be how it is gift-wrapped, but that is not what it is. There are examples of companies going bankrupt, and crowd funders losing their "investment." KS is NOT a pre-order.
There is nothing guaranteed in a KS. When we invest in a system like this, it is no different than investing in the stock market. It is a total gamble because we don't have, or take the time, to get the full information.
Hopefully a lesson is learned here and people start backing games that are produced in North America. If more consumers did that, then eventually producers would respond. There are already companies that do make games in the USA and make money.
Ludofact is an example. Companies like WoTC/Hasbro produce their CARDBOARD in the USA, which is totally possible. If more did this, there could be a paradigm shift in manufacturing perceptions. IIRC, Terraforming Mars was produced in the USA.
Another thing: Wood tokens are similar in price to plastic tokens: stonemaiergames.com/wood-vs-plastic-the-facts-about-custom-tokens/
Terra Mystica is a beautiful game. It, and games like it, could EASILY be produced in NA or the EU. There are MANY games that don't use plastic, and in many cases, wood components can replace the plastic.
But wood cannot replace the miniatures. I know that most of you are all about miniatures. I know that the plastics come from other sources, and it will take time for manufacturing to be set up in NA, but it CAN happen.
I can't find the post, but somebody else said, if XBox can be made in Mexico, then plastics can be make in North America as well. Hopefully this shipping crisis wakes people up.