seriously. I left this movie wondering despite all the things he put andrew through, literally destroying his mind, is this actually affective. You know a movie is good when you start wondering if the villian psychotic nature can be justified in your everyday life.
Effective or no, I think you have to look no further than the number of psychologically damaged artists who become ONLY their work (people who method act to the point of gaining mental disorders or contracting health problems, for example) to question if that kind of route is even worth it.
Can he play this role as Cave Johnson? "Science isn't about WHY It's about WHY NOT!... In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you in the butt on the way out because you're fired."
Fletcher is so terrifying mainly because he’s not some alien solider. He’s just a regular guy that you’ve either heard about or worse experienced. Someone who pretty much can turn your art and passion against you. Most villains want to break you physically, fletcher does it mentally
I don’t know exactly for abusers in general, but I have known a narcissist for a few years. And I can say from experience: they got everything planned out. Everything you say, they could maybe use against you. I was omce in an argument on discord. And he pulled out something I said more than a YEAR ago. Using it as an argument saying ‘what you said here doesn’t line up with what you’re saying now.’ Of course, Fletcher was an abuser, again don’t know if he was specifically a narcissist, but yes, abusers are VERY intelligent. They know what to use and what to do. I’m happy I left this narcissist literally 3 days ago. Anyways always keep an eye out! Follow your feeling. If it don’t feel right, it probably isn’t!
In my mind, he even took the other drummers notebook, just so he could later break Andrew down by saying he's only in the chair because Andrew "misplaced" it.
@@tocommenter2726 I'm happy you left them too, I had a similar situation like this about 4 years ago on discord, they faked depression to twist me into doing what they wanted or else they would harm themselves and I have a permanent scar on my wrist reminding me of what i did. After not talking to them for about 2 years I tried to get into contact again hoping maybe that they changed, but they didn't not in the slightest and that time I saw right through it and cut all ties with them immediately. But yes it is extremely scary how they will find out just enough about you too twist you into doing what they want
@@shinigamistarship pretty sure that was confirmed in the final scene where someone watched the scene and saw those papers he gave Andrew on stage had some of the exact some notes on the drummers notebook
My father was like this to me playing Rugby League growing up. The mental, and often physical, abuse was something I had to deal with every week. As someone who was a very good footballer, I soon grew to despise the sport. Dreading every game, and hoping I could meet my fathers expectations. By the time I hit 17, I no longer wished to play. To the point where even today, at 32 years old, I rarely watch the sport. The first time I watched this movie was like reliving my past. It took me to places I thought I had left behind.
@@DibbzTV I suppose I never really healed, to be honest. Not fully anyway. I still have a lot of mental problems. I suffer from PTSD, anxiety and stress. I used to have really bad nightmares until I was nearly 30. I was suicidal for a long time with severe depression. It has been the birth of my son, and finding my wife, that has helped me get out of the depression and suicidal thoughts. The dreams have gone away as well. I suppose perseverance and wanting to be a better dad than my father was has gotten me through a lot.
@@aussieoutlaw17 Thanks 🙏🏼 You sound like a good man, and I admire how you value your family. I dealt with a lot of trauma and esp from a mental abuser for a good portion of my upbringing. I used the rage, emotion, whatever you call it, to fuel my goals and now that I’m older… Let’s just say it’s not the “success”I thought and found myself alone. I’m beginning to focus more on my happiness, which is not easy. I struggle with letting go. God bless man ❤️
@@DibbzTV I was the same. I was alone for a long time. And being angry was a big cause of it. Being able to let go of that rage helped a lot. God bless you in your future endeavours, and I truly hope you find peace in life. Lord knows we deserve it. All the best in life, my friend.
After the final "Caravan" solo scene, Andrew Neiman went on to become one of the best Top Gun pilots of all time, and helped Maverick take down several enemy fighters.
Neiman was always on his time. Fletcher only testing him because he want his students to be completely perfect and able to notice when something is off.
Probably when he tells the other guy that he's out of tune even if he isn't, the script is explaining to us that he's going to do the same with Fletcher's tempo.
The sad part about the movie that a lot a people misunderstand (based on my take/perspective, at least), is that the ending isn’t a triumphant victory story for our protagonist, and in reality, Fletcher achieved his goal of reducing a human down to nothing, and forcing them into his ideal. If our boy doesn’t achieve that level of greatness, Fletcher is left with nothing but a broken toy, and nothing/nobody to validate his psychopathic tactics for reaching his own form of greatness in the world of music
Wtf are you talking about? Andrew took all the abuse and pain and all that he sacrificed in practicing and focusing his mind in the music, took the worst abuse Fletcher could throw at him, and played so well he blew Fletcher away. A broken toy would have left with his dad crying. Andrew persevered and overcame, just like Charlie Parker. Fletcher and Andrews goals were the same, they both were triumphant.
It could be seen either way, its up to the viewer to interpret whether the ends justify the means, so to say. Some would argue that the cruelty of fletchers means do not justify the end result of perhaps one of the great drummers of history. While others might say that the end result makes up for the cruelty. Its subjective, as any art should be to a degree.
@@gonkdroid9325 but I don't know if you can call him a villain, regardless of how cruel he was. Both he and Andrew have the same goals, they're in direct opposition in numerous circumstances on how they want to achieve those goals, but in the end they both accomplish their goals and the movie ends with them no longer in conflict but as equals. I believe Andrew would argue his performance was the culmination of both their goals, meaning he would (likely) agree that Fletcher's ends justified the means. I think you can state that objectively, based on how the movie portrays both Fletcher and Andrew's characters.
The pictures really did seem impossible. Almost like someone with incredible acrobatic talents, and superhuman capabilities took them. That Parker kid must really be amazing. At photography, I mean.
I think it’s really crazy that, after this movie came out one of my Band Directors said that he really loved Fletcher. It made me see him as a completely different person after that.
What’s even more terrifying is Fletcher is proven “right” by the end of the movie. His insane tactics drive Andrew to become great, so Fletcher feels all of his actions were justified.
I'm getting the sense that everyone who finds this villain especially terrifying is because they've been put in a position, one way or another, where they've had to face a serious ball-breaker like Fletcher. Incredible performance from J.K. Simmons, too. He really sells it. I think we can all put ourselves in Andrew's shoes in many parts throughout the movie
> I'm getting the sense that everyone who finds this villain especially terrifying is because they've been put in a position, one way or another, where they've had to face a serious ball-breaker like Fletcher. Right on target! And I'd take it further. Those who see Terrence as the key to "greatness," "excellence," "craft," whatever, have had to face that same kind of ball breaking personality - but they have a _lesser opinion_ of those who cannot or will not go thru that. They are very likely to be condescending.
more than terrifying i found him really, really annoying, i dont know why nobody except neiman tries to beats him, he with time will just trigger the atomic response in everyone, think of having to endure this guy bullshits for years
The fact that J.K.Simmons won an Oscar for his performance was long deserved. He's appeared in over two hundred films and has portrayed diverse characters on TV shows.
What I find the most amazing and scary about Terence Fletcher is that he's a "villain" that actually wins at the end. In a way, if Neiman succeeded in music it was because of Fletcher.
Not necessarily, we can easily make the case that he succeeded *despite* what Fletcher did. He already practiced incredibly hard, and may certainly have risen to the same heights under another, kinder teacher. That's actually what I loved most about the film - that we're left with that ambiguity at the end. There's no ambiguity about Fletcher being a monster though, having literally caused some kids' suicides. He absolutely shouldn't be in the position he's in. His pathology means that he *will* take credit for Neimann's success after the show though. Brilliant characters all around, and it was easily my fave film of the year.
@@overseastom thats a hypothetical scenario though. Its more a long the lines of Joker trying to make Batman cross the line and break his one rule: no killing. You could just as easily argue that the abuse he endured from Fletcher pushed him to the heights he got to. Even Fletcher remarks in the film that (paraphrasing) “anyone can say good job, and thats why talent is so sparse now-a-days”. You also have to remember that they are both wanting of the same thing: to be the best. Fletcher does not have the skill to do what Neyman can, but Neyman is also not as smart as Fletcher and is no where near as experienced to meet his goal. They literally can only both get to the top from the others success. And no one is arguing that Fletcher is not the Antagonist of the story or that abuse is ok. It’s supposed to be about “no pain, no gain” and that usually suffering is what leads to greatness in any story. Characters who never struggle are always forgotten, and it’s the journey to becoming legendary in your craft
As a person who did a lot of sports and music while young, I've seen this kind of shit happen to some of my friends growing up. This movie hit super close to home and very scary.
I am ao sorry for you. I recently (half a year ago) started doing martial arts. To be detailed, Hema which is historical fencing with e.g longswords or polearms Because in this sport you use tactics that were designed to kill I always expected a very diciplined and harsh atmosphere there but truth is that everyone is super supportive there so I suppose I was really lucky! I really hope more and more people will find a healthy environment for their dream!
I tried to watch a scene of the movie as a way to desensitize myself about some music teachers I know. Tried to on and off for years. A decade later, I still fantasize about what I could do to Fletcher with a rusty blade. Clearly I still have issues. 😵💫
my band teacher lashed out at me for something that didn’t need to be brought up in front of the class. i just wish teachers and people in general can be more respectful of others, since shit like that can mentally hurt you
Something note worthy here is that as a musician, it is more difficult to listen to yourself while playing complicated patterns and tempos than what non-musicians might think. Therefore, not understading where a mistake lies when corrected by a director is way more common that one's ego would like to admit. With or without an abusing direction, this happens a lot when dealing with high pressure situations. Great video!
Agreed. I used to be a musician and was in a marching band once. It is difficult to really hear what mistake you made especially in more complicated tempos and pieces as you have said.
Not to mention that there is an inherent trust present when you assume the role of mentee that your mentor is going to actually *_mentor_* you, not lie to you. Honestly, any student who would refuse to accept blame when their mentor tells them they messed up would be difficult to teach - perhaps even impossible, depending on severity - even if the protégé is in the right. You aren't going to do everything perfectly, or you wouldn't be the student. The entire purpose of having coaches, directors, etc. is to use their experience to correct mistakes the pupil doesn't know they're making or doesn't know how to fix. That scene where the musician is gaslit into believing that he screwed up beautifully demonstrates Fletcher's priorities. Not music, not art, not teaching. Tormenting. Ensuring to everyone - likely to himself most of all - that he holds absolute control.
Ray Charles and James Brown were famous for sensing who wasn’t on the right notes and practically abused their teams But you gotta admire dedication to the music craft for perfection
Absolutely. You often need an "objective" ear to guide you, so you're at the mercy of their honesty/accuracy. Whenever my band would record a take, it was often better or worse when we played it back than we thought while playing it at the time.
I personally think this movie is less about the terrors of an external abuser and more about the dangers of self inflicted perfectionism. We must be careful how we arrange our value hierarchies so we don’t fall prey to this kind of abuse, either external or from within.
Fair enough. I really didn't know where the movie was going until Fletcher started slapping the kid, then I was like, "what the hell," toward both of them. Maybe I've just lived long enough to have way too much perspective and self-respect to even fathom staying in that room one more second after the guy bitch-slapped me, but that's what I would hope anyone's response would be--time to go! And also time to report that SOB. To watch anything else says something profound about that character, not just Fletcher. Honestly, it did kind of pull me out of the movie, how do you have a room full of men who tolerate a new kid getting slapped and crying? Pretty unrealistic. I kinda struggled with that sort of unbelievability throughout the movie.
True. It seems like some people put all the responsibility on the abuser, while ignoring the victims role. It isn't good to victim-blame but people should be aware of abusive behavior and ways they can escape that abuse.
@@stevenking4617To address the believability of the scene you mentioned. When you put yourself in the context of the scene, these guys are in one of the most prestigious jazz classes in the world, their entire future might rest on their performance in the class. They obviously are unsettled by the slap, but they have become desensitized to this kind of behavior, and likely tolerate it given the stakes. So, in context, it makes sense to me.
@@gonkdroid9325ok…what if instead of an abusive teacher. It’s an abusive parent? You learn everything about the world and how it functions through your parents, so much so that if you were abused as a kid, you’re less likely to recognise that abuse as an adult. You’ll do anything to receive those tiny crumbs of praise because that’s what you’ve been taught love is. Your logic is the same that doesn’t understand the complex psychology of why a woman would stay with a husband who beats her. It’s not as simple as “just leave”. In the case of the film, we know exactly why he tolerates that abuse. Just look at the way his family treats him. They don’t see music as worthwhile (as do a lot of families) but everyone enjoys music by the best musicians. If he can become the best drummer, he’ll finally get the recognition from his family that he once had as a kid. Abuse victims will do anything to get love and appreciation from their abuser. I’ve seen it over and over again in my own life and those I care about.
I think whats also terrifying about this guy is how many people were and still are defending, justifying and even glorifying his abuse. I won't claim there's a slippery slope between having a positive opinion of the character and his actions (however undeserved or problematic) and becoming an abuser, we don't need that kind of fallacy to make a point, but it is scary how some people can see such blatant abuse and manipulation and think "yeah, this is just the way things should be in music school".
A well deserved Oscar win for J.K. Simmons. Both him and Allison Janney played the title character's supportive parents in "Juno", before nabbing Oscars as emotionally abusive parental figures!
Thats interesting, and I don't know the actress, was she the mom in the fighter? Sidenote with my fun fact, Simmons filmed his entire part in 4 days or something like that
I had a teacher like this and the terrifying part for me was not him yelling and shouting at me, instead it was when he would go quiet, say nothing or ignored and did not care about my work or at times giving a not convincing nod of approval.
Sounds like a scary teacher. Silence can build far more anxiety than shouting from certain people. At high school there was a music teacher like that. I honestly might get my reply removed if I repeated the things you'd hear him screaming at the orchestra. I'm Scottish and swearing is common here but teachers aren't allowed to do it but he didn't care less. I doubt he'd get away with it nowadays. The weird thing is that I had him as a teacher for a music module in my last year and he seems really calm and cool. A bit of a Jekyll and Hyde character.
@@TheLadyDelirium Was he actually good at it ? if he was then maybe he knew what he was doing, I have actually picked some of that myself, not to that degree though, but if I care about someone and think they have the potential and the will to become great I burst into flames with them and push them harder, but with the ones that I consider lost cause I do not care at all.
I like this movie because I relate to it so much. My marching band director was kinda like fletcher. Not to the point where she would hit us or throw chairs but as close as you legally could get to that. She would sometimes make us go without water if we messed up. She would make us run laps even if we said one word when standing at attention. She didn't even care if a bee was about to sting you she would make you run laps if you moved during standing at attention. And she made us march in everything; snow, rain, scorching heat, sand. Everything. There was never a break never a rest. It was so bad this one kid even passed out standing at attention once. And the countless drills and marching practice and..oh my goodness. But after all of that I'm proud of what I did and what I was part of. She took a bunch of us slackers and nobodys and made us into something great. Music is a difficult industry but if you're tough and determined the world is yours.
Just watched this again recently, finally grasping that the ending was NOT a good ending when you consider what happened to Fletcher’s former student 😢
Well, andrew did say that he was fine dying young as long as he was remembered as one of the greats. It was not a happy ending for everyone, but for andrew and fletcher, it is.
@@KanderUdonIf that truly was what Andrew wanted, then fair enough. But I suspect that he only wanted that because of how he’s been shaped by American society, and how it idolizes individual “success”above literally anything else.
I was still in high school when i first saw this movie with fellow band mates. All of us laughed and kinda cheered at how accurate his portrayal of an abusive teacher was as our band director was very similar, just not as loud. During pandemic i revisited the movie and no lie i had a severe anxiety attack. It didn't dawn on me just how badly that band director hurt my mental health during my teenage years and surprised me how it carried over into my adult life unknowingly. Say what you want about this current generation of kids and how "soft" they are, but im glad they now have the resources to more easily go after those in authority overstepping boundaries. That director eventually was fired but only after numerous complaints like the one portrayed in film
Omg🙄🙄😒😒 literally every kid who has ever gone to school in the history of kids going to school has had at least one mean teacher who made them dread going to class, and we all made it out alive and still became successful, happy, functioning adults. GenZ are the only ones who've have to have their non-binary emotional balls stroked and can't get through a single through normal negative human experience without crying about their "anxiety" "abusive" and "mental health". "Betterhelp" was created because they're literally the first generation that needs a therapist on speed dial.
Hey, when life gives you lemons… don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons, what the hell am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!
What I find fascinating is how many of the people I know view it more like a sports film, where the coach is trying to get the most out of his athletes, and thus interpret Simmons' behavior as acceptable, instead of recognizing it as terrifying abuse. I suppose some people assume that the ends justify the means when it comes to certain social activities for the masses.
I think he manages to abuse the audience too, to the point where by the end we too believe "oh yes, the tempo is perfect, he really just wanted to help him become perfect". We suffered through everything with the protagonist and in the end, we feel what he does. Completely fallen for the abuse and manipulation. Then add the fact that this is something that happens irl, we are being told irl that the end justifies the means...
I don’t think the ends justify the means, I just don’t see the issue with the means. No one forced his students to be there. If they don’t think it’s worth it, they can leave. He doesn’t even seem scary to me, just like someone who wants the best for and from his students. He actually cares unlike most of the garbage teachers out there. I wish more teachers and coaches were like this. We’d have a lot more greatness.
@@francescaerreia8859 "no one forced them to be there" yeah they 'only' have to be saddled with debt, leave the school and fight for increasingly fewer slots in other music schools with lesser reputations (because of people like you that valorise abuse) that are themselves being cannibalised by even more incompetent monsters like Fletcher
I think that’s what pissed me of the most about Terence Fletcher and also the film as a whole when I finished it : the fact that a lot of people would find his downright evil behavior acceptable, just because the character manipulates the audience just as much as the students in the film.
I haven't met J. K. personally, but a few of my friends have while working with his late parents. He (and his parents were too) is universally kind and thoughtful. I think you have to be an amazingly gentle person to understand how to act like an obscenely brutal one.
During the love bombing scene the placing of the hand on the wall behind the victim is also establishing physical dominance over the victim by invasion of personal space in a passive way to appear as a looming presence.
You left out the most tragic part: Fletcher succeeds perfectly in shaping a great performer out of the protagonist through his abuse, and by the final performance he's so psyched out and taking charge of the stage by sheer spite and pride, that Fletcher can't do nothing but nod and play along, even helping keeping the drum set from falling apart. We begin the movie thinking he's giving "tough love", then we see it for the abuser he is, then he misdirects with the story about Charlie Parker and the cymbal throwing, and then it comes crashing again into downright abuse - AND THEN it all actually works in shaping a great perfomer, in both a triumph for the music and a great moral defeat.
I just replied to someone else that said a similar thing, but I think the beauty of the film is the ambiguity of it - sure, Neiman succeeds in the end, but it could just as easily be *despite* Fletcher's methods, not because of them. Neiman practices extremely hard and has drive already, and we simply don't know how he would perform under a kinder, gentler teacher. Perhaps just as well, we'll simply never know. We do know however, that Fletcher has literally driven people to suicide, and perhaps they could have been musical greats too. So I don't think it's as simply as "Fletcher succeeds in his methods", but rather is left to interpretation, which I think truly makes the film a modern classic. It was my favourite film the year it came out, and the exact type of movie I hope to see every time I go to the cinema.
@@overseastom see, true, but that's the thing - coulda, woulda, but Neiman, in those circumstances, arose to the challenge in anger, in what could probably be seen as a breakdown or (probably more accurately) a display of mental fortitude, which already separates him from those that collapsed under the immense pressure. Sure the others who committed suicide might have been great, too, but they weren't the type of greatness Fletcher was trying to abuse into being. Neiman ended up becoming just that, in the end, with the furious performance crowning his success AND Fletcher's, with it being a reaction to the abuse either way.
@@GabrielMisfire I hear you, but it doesn't show the aftermath at all, just Neiman succeeding in that very moment. The first thing he might have done after the concert is tell the press there that Fletcher abused the ever-loving fuck out of him and that he even tried to sabotage him *that very night* too. I know what you mean though - Fletcher's methods *didn't* break Neiman and we witness him doing something amazing, so it almost seems like a justification for his methods. That's what I mean about the ambiguity though - you're not wrong, it's just that we don't see what goes on right afterwards, meaning Fletcher doesn't necessarily "win" at all. We just know Neiman didn't lose.
I think if they were actually going for ambiguity with the ending it could have been pulled pff a lot better. The way the film ends of such a high note with the music continuing into the credits right after the performance is shown to be a success, it seems like the film is doing everything to end on a “good” note and not have people question things. I’m one of the people who thinks the film was truly excellent, right up until the very end when it shows that, wether because of or in spite of Fletcher, Andrew did become a great performer. Now, this could have been handled very interestingly if they hadn’t chosen to go with all the fast cuts and upbeat credit sequence. Imagine if the final performance had played out in a static wide shot as he plays through perfectly, we see Fletchers look of approval and then cut to black, silence. Then there would be some real moral ambiguity: did Fletche win? And either way, what do we as an audience think and feel about it? The was it was presented was quite manipulative and I feel many people end up just thinking it has a “good” ending (just read most of the positive reviews and see how few make any references to the morally difficult questions this film asks). Wether or not Andrew succeeds in his performance in the end because of *or* despite Fletcher’s methods, either way the result is that the film is saying that, in this story, the abuse we witnessed achieved “greatness”. And again, I’m not saying the ending to the story needed to be changed, I just wish they had leaned into a sense ambiguity and actually invited the audience to think about exactly what happened. (I’m preacing to the coverted here as both of you commenters clearly have thought about the ending a lot, but just scan through most reviews and comments and you can see how most people just see the ending as Andrew winning or achieving his goals and that this is a good thing)
Also, I would argue that wether Fletcher won or lost, either way Neiman *did* lose. He lost his initial love for music driven by personal passion, he lost his college years to anxiety and mental abuse, he lost out on relationships, I could go on. Yes, he managed to pull off a great performance. Can we really call that winning? The only reason we as an audience even “know” that it’s a “great” performance is that we see Fletcher’s reaction and we blindly trust him. On another related note, I see Neiman as an equally problematic character. Even if from the start his passion for music wasn’t initially driven by wanting to be “great”, it very quickly became so. Are we supposed to just go along rooting for his “success” withour questioning what it is he actually wants? The inherent wrong in Fletcher’s actions should be obvious, but I think there’s also something to be said for Neiman’s own approach to music, here a proxy for art generally, as a competition. So even if my above point is argued that Neiman *did* in fact “win”, I can’t say I think this is in anyway a good thing. What does it show? That if through mental and physical abuse suffered atthe hands of others and yourself you can achieve your own narrow view of “greatness” that needs validation by somone else, in this case the actual abuser? Anyway, it’s a really well made film and always gets me thinking, but I wish they had chosen to dive into these questions a bit more instead of what they did with the ending.
I remember being in the same room when my parents were watching this movie. The Rushing or Dragging scene actually scared little 8-11 year old me to the point of tears LOL
This movie gave me anxiety watching it. It was about the same experience for me when I decided to go to the U of Akron for jazz studies in 2007. All of these tactics were present minus the physical violence. I dropped out and was basically alienated by colleagues and teachers because I decided to speak up for myself. Everyone decided I was "entitled" and "too sensitive," and told "didnt want it enough" and have a "victim mentality" to justify abuse. I never needed a competative mindset to get better. I felt the change in my brain happening. Now I don't play jazz. I feel alone. Music is not as fun anymore. Yall won. Good job.
Maybe you could try playing music again but just play what you like and do it at your own pace. Music is something you can teach yourself to an extent. You don't need other people's permission to play music. Hope that helps.
@Rachel Smith Thank you for showing some tenderness. The funny thing is is that I've known what you are saying since I started playing, and i do just that. Its still a shame and its depressing to feel limited in where i can express myself. I don't know if you're familiar with the politics around this area, but it's a small world in this music scene. An imagined scarcity and gatekeepeing are staples of it. Everyone knows each other. And one can only get so far as an island.
Part of what makes his portrayal so scary is how he can be nice when he chooses - but you know the flip out is right around the corner. My mom was the same way growing up. Even when they seem ok you can never relax and it’s exhausting. You always walk on eggshells even though it won’t prevent the inevitable. It’s %100 why I suffer from anxiety today
A perfect example of how good of a villain he is, you pronounce Andrew’s last name wrong when you introduce the character. Fletcher says his last name wrong the entire movie just as that extra “you are beneath me” It’s Nay-men not knee-men
This became such a missed detail that almost everyone after watching the movie and talking about the character refers to him as "knee-man." This was such an interesting bit that most people missed, I'm always happy to see somebody catch it.
@@hustlecoder1673 i mean i'm not american and i get the "haha amurican dum" streotype, but doesn't literally EVERYONE no matter the culture butcher names?
What's fascinating about this movie is that it portrays violence without actually using any real weapons: no typical guns blazing, knives slashing, or bombs exploding. Think about the theme: just musicians playing jazz, this shouldn't be so terrifying, and yet the filmmakers made us sit at the edge of our seats. Bravo!
violence is behavior specifically involving physical force. It is not accurate to use this term in place of abuse, which I think is more accurate. Not to shit on your comment, its still valid, I just don't like when words become redefined for no reason.
When I was enlisted, this movie came out. It was an instant hit among the Joes. Many of us reminisced about the days of training, where people were routinely broken on a daily basis. I think we enjoyed the fact we were not alone.
I was proud of myself for making it through training. It really did make me a stronger person and Im out of the Military now and that strength and confidence carried over into my professional and personal life. So there's a certain kind of breaking down that is good when the purpose is build you up stronger and better. The people who do it with that intention are always proud of you in the end; your success is their end game. There's another kind of breaking down that is just an bully, arrogant, or insecure person in power who does it to inflate their own ego and to keep down people who they are threatened by ... there were a lot of NCO's like that in the military too.
I actually had a lot of teachers and employers like Fletcher but the most clear cut one was my 1A driving instructor. My school successfully convinced me I was a born tradesman (I wasn't, I'm an academic in a field adjacent to civil engineering), and after asking for help from family and friends, I got the money to take a semi driving program and that guy was tough. He was Fletcher through and through. Our first day in the rig, he didn't show us anything about how it worked, he just told us he was leaving the seat and demanded we get in before it crashed. Then, he'd berate and scream at us until we each cried and broke down and either did crash (because we didn't know how to drive it), or we put it in neutral and gave up. Compliments from him were always followed by lectures and berating.
I think what made Fletcher so terrifying and this movie relatable is that a lot of us have had a Fletcher in our lives; some sort of over the top pushing bossy person that pushed us to be great but in horrible ways. But sometimes Fletchers are kind of necessary the non abusive ones but close to being. I wouldn't have learned a lot without those Fletchers in my life. I think it's good to have someone push you to be your best but it is never good when it actually harms you and your mental health and physical wellbeing. Regardless I hope you're doing well and are better.
@@Goddessღ Even if a teacher doesn’t physically abuse a student, I think there is a difference Between a teacher that is structured, has appropriate expectations out of students. And holding them accountable. And what we saw fletcher do in the film, a good teacher doesn’t do that by insulting or insinuating that they’re going to insult someone, and of course They need to have appropriate expectations, if someone is brand stinking new, than throwing them in the lake method is not always appropriate. It be one thing if someone already had training and knows what to do, however they still lack confidence. So you use that method to instill confidence in them. But that’s different.And I think we have plenty of examples of teachers in our lives that were firm but fair. Meaning they don’t use the tactics that we saw Fletcher do in the movie. In any capacity. And to be firm but fair means that you hold somebody to a standard, you make sure they follow it, but you don’t do it by belittling them or taking the humanity out of them. Like treating them like a tool without personal agency . You’re not forcing them to only seek your approval, and nothing else. You’re making sure they understand the material, and why it’s important to follow it.
I remember when this movie came out, a lot of people felt the ending was happy. I never felt happy for Andrew because of what he went through. But then I saw a video analyzing that Whiplash is darker than what people think. It also mentioned that the director himself said that he saw Andrew having success as a drummer, but, he would die at a young age from a drug overdose. That's when it hit me that this ending was never meant to be happy. Or as Chazelle said, it's a sad happy ending. And that made more sense to me because Fletcher crossed the line so many times to where he's lucky that he only got fired from his job. But it's crazy that people see the ending as one of triumph. Even though there's clear cut evidence that says otherwise.
The fact that people loved him when he was in spiderman until they found out that he was in whiplash is pretty funny because in this movie he’s more aggresive but in spiderman he’s more of a comedy character
I remember watching this movie with a group who said it was unrealistic how easily he was broken by JK. I have been in the MCs place, not with music, but in general in a relationship. When you already have issues/weaknesses, and you meet somebody who removes them from your head and makes you finally feel good about yourself and happy etc, then they begin to make you feel like you are failing them or doing something wrong before moving into tearing your very fiber of a being down, it can fuck you up and make you do things you never did before. Sometimes positive, but most of the times negative. I ended up getting PTSD from that relationship. So many times people think of severe shit like PTSD from someone being in a war, but do not realize there are many forms of PTSD and ways of getting it. People in relationships with someone like Fletcher are usually the ones that end up in abusive relationships, and they have the victim right where they want them, and that is why you will see people staying with abuser or going back. It's almost like you want to prove to them you are good enough for them, impress them, you become their puppet. Just like you see him do here. In the end it's not even about himself anymore, it's about him wanting to be good enough for Fletcher.
You didn't see any hatred for Fletcher, or at least defiance, when he went up on that stage at the end? You think it was just his last chance to fulfill some desperate need for approval?
I think we can all relate to Neman, especially from school. I know the feeling, as well as everybody else, how it feels to get singled out and ridiculed. The dread of not being good enough, of ones failure, and their mistakes, can really suffocate you over time. J.K Simmons’ portrayal of fletcher is almost a perfect amalgamation of this feeling. Whiplash conveyed these emotions to the viewer perfectly and is what makes it such a genius film.
He so desperately wanted to please him. Especially with how undermined he felt in his own family, he sought approval from another adult. This is such a relatable reality for so many including myself. That I think it also made the film so impactful.
I honestly just wish they stopped portraying Hades as an evil rage filled person rather than a reserved leader like he is in the mythology. If anyone's evil it's Zeus and Hera, Hercules's parents.
I'll never forget how it felt watching this movie for the first time. The twist that he was completely obessed and abusive was truly shocking, since I knew nothing about the movie going in, and the solo at the end was so unbelievably intense, and then triumphant. Yet it's also such a dark movie when you look at the themes. I love Whiplash, and JK Simmons is fucking amazing in it.
@@flask223 I truly didn't know whether to laugh or cry when he said the line, "THEN WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T YOU SAY SO!?" Before that, I thought it was just going to be about a mentor/mentee relationship. And after that almost the entire movie is full of dread and tension. This movies by the way is one my my top 3 favorite movies of the 2010s. I love it.
Interesting lighting on that first scene: Teller dressed in white, but the head bowed in shadow, while Simmons dressed in black, almost invisible except for the head, which is lit. Further, it appears that as the movie progresses Teller's character starts to dress like Simmons'. Guy before Teller in green, guy after in red... Interesting choices.
I had a film teacher who was really manipulative, never physically assaulting or shouting but he was the most manipulative man I’ve ever heard. Always placing himself as the victim, lying to protect himself, breaking and then appropriating our ideas and when we would say anything to him, he would make us feel guilty and angry against ourselves. He made of a lot of my classmates drop cinema. That’s why Whiplash is so important to me, that movie denounces this type of behavior that I personally lived.
Whiplash holds a very special place for me because little did I know after seeing it, I lived it. I followed my dream and ended up apprenticing for a "Master" in my craft, and he was every bit of Fletcher and then some. Short of me crashing a car and showing up bloodied and dazed, I ran myself into the ground for over a year trying to win the respect of this person. Nothing I did was ever good enough, I was constantly berated and humiliated in front of the other employees, and I eventually had my first ever mental breakdown. Looking back I should have had more self respect and left on my own terms, but I'd never quit anything in my life to that point. I was eventually thrown under the bus by one of the employees for something I didn't do and was fired. But alls well that ends well, because I have my own shop now and I'm mastering the craft on my own terms.
We had a teacher like this back in college, most of us drop on 1st week or two, he also had a student that commited suicide. This method could work to bring out the best of people's mind, but with a seriously steep cost.
He reminds me of my Mother after drinking. Definitely a terrifying experience to be screamed at, while anyone around won't help, and your tears don't matter to whoever is screaming in your face.
I would love your thoughts on Miranda Priestly from The Devil Wears Prada. Similar tactics, but lacks the love bombing. It seems like she doesn't care about Andrea until the very end.
There’s a great video on RUclips that says the devil wears prada did everything this film did, first. But guys don’t watch TDWP because it’s about fashion.
What I learned about training in solitude is that the sacrifice to endure pain for further growth has to be voluntary. The reason I find "tough love" detrimental, aside from just how demeaning it is, is that it heightens the feelings of anxiety, fear, inadequacy, shame and despair, particularly if you are being ridiculed in front of others. A good leader/coach/custodian will try to understand their student's strengths and weaknesses, and will not need to rely on malicious negativity to help them achieve their potential.
I remember watching this move and how scarily relatable it was to my experience in High School band Obviously my Band teacher was no where near as extreme as a J.K. Simon's Fletcher, but there was some pretty close moments. The movie was literally a type of PTSD experience for me. This movie is so real sometimes that it really truly is Terrifying. I also loved it haha.
This is one of my favorite movies of all time and more than half of that praise is due to JK Simmons. What a terrifying and utterly fantastic performance
What an amazing breakdown. I've watched this movie about 10 times. Never realized what you suggested about his "musicians in the family?" question. Well done.
While not nearly as extreme, I had a similar experience in drum line. It was like being in the Marines but for drums. 5am wake up with cymbals. Playing passed the point of bleeding. Berating in front of the entire band. The movie really wasn't that far off. Very well done.
Great movie. It strangely helped me understand that there are big risks when chasing a dream or that some dreams aren't worth the sacrifice of one's health or relationships.
The scene that hit the hardest was JK in the hall talking with his friend and his friends daughter. It’s scary how people can become so two faced which is why the film horrified me but I enjoyed every second of it 10/10 movie
Years ago, I couldn’t finish this movie, the tactics were too « triggering ». Now I make videos on this topic. Excellent analysis of toxic tactics, well done 👍🏼
It's interesting how there is a dichotomy between some of the comments as to whether or not he should be viewed as a villain. There really is a "sleep in the van" mentality towards pro musicianship that I think music culture as a whole needs to grow out of; as you acknowledged, it's very abusive.
it's not just music culture, its every competitive activity. a lot of people like to think this abuse is not only normal, but healthy for getting to the top.
@@ArtamisBot Adam Neely has an excellent video about this topic, where he reveals what touring in the modern age actually costs in terms of money snd logistics. "Sleep in the van" is a complete non solution, mostly suggested by people who have never been on tour
Im kinda sad that JK keeps getting abusive roles considering how sweet he is offscreen. But he keeps delivering Oscar worthy performances so I'm sure he's doing alright
I've encountered a few monsters like him, mainly in the realm of sports coaching. Their most malignant legacy is causing their victims to hate a sport they used to love and derive such joy from. It's tainted forever.
"There is nothing more terrifying than a narcissistic sociopath driven by a warped sense of purpose, sitting in a position of power." Dam that line hits so hard even for our society. You hit the nail right on the head.
While I agree he's an abusive manipulator, I think the subversive element that his tactics may have accomplished their goal is what makes this movie interesting and the ending hit so hard. I'm pretty sure Chazelle has even said there is an ambiguity in his mind in an interview.
i cried after watching whiplash because it made me question if his abuse was excusable and justified, and if i were pressured like this any response from me other than obedience and submission would be invalid and selfish if i weren’t willing to suffer for greatness or the fulfilment of others’ expectations. i will admit that i completely don’t know the truth yet, but this man shook me to my core
What's terrifying about watching Fletcher is the awareness that I'll probably fall for his manipulative tactics when placed in a position similar to Neiman. The desire to please a person of authority who seemingly got his whole shit figured out is just too strong. I have enough self-awareness to know how I'm (and many people are) susceptible to figures like this character.
Agreed on Fletcher. But just so we are clear, this is a sports movie disguised as music movie. Simmons plays an abusive coach, not a band director… hence the parallel drawn between creative arts and athletics ~7:00 of the vid.
I've heard that analysis before. and it sounds plausible....unless you apply the same standard to an actual sport. Because one can apply the same critical regard to say, _____(pick a sport) and how this film actually represents music; its representation of performance and standards of excellence, music history, teaching and a whole host of other discrete metrics. Your pick-a-sport also involve these elements. As well as, Disciplines of technique, training, teaching, performance, improvisation, structure, etc....to be clear. We see "sports" movies that are as far afield from their alleged subject matter as this one. .....almost to a film. Unfortunately, movie makers are seldom interested in the craft at the center of their creations. The abusive leader/holder of power trope is time worn. Its always about the relationship and character dynamics rather than the activity. In this way, WHIPLASH isn't any more about "sports" as it is about "music".
@@lloveculture I’m not sure I agree, but it’s an interesting exercise to plug in a sport… and perhaps even an actual real-life coach. Fletcher is Bobby Knight, former Indiana Univ Men’s Basketball coach… in literally almost every way. It happened in that sport, and the reason I see it as a sports movie is because for decades, Knight’s behavior was publicly known, shown on TV, and deemed relatively acceptable. The moment Fletchers behavior was “made public,” he was fired. He was an abuser in private. Knight was an abuser in public, and was supported, chosen, and even celebrated for it. He hit his players. Threw chairs. And psychological berated and manipulated them. The difference for me is that while the abuser power dynamic is everywhere, we have seen Fletcher’s behavior lauded & replicated as “the best way to lead” in sports. That same acceptance of that abusive leadership style can’t be said for music education, to my knowledge or in my experience.
I've rewatched Whiplash a bunch of times and it was only upon my recent rewatch last week that I noticed that every time he degraded Tanner (the other core/alt drummer) he brought up him being gay; it finally clicked that he probably wasn't just saying that for the sake of just coming up with something emasculating to say, but most likely that Tanner at some point must have confided in Fletcher his sexual orientation. And, similarly to Neiman, he just uses that information to humiliate him and evoke insecurity/self loathing. It's so sinister considering his authority over these literal students, decades younger than himself and so impressionable. Great video!
i have a strong connection with this movie. it's one of my favourites but it's hard to watch because in many ways it's an uncanny recounting of a traumatic experience i went through in college. while this professor of mine never physically abused me or anyone that i know of, he was the type to get in your face, belittle you, ignore you, make you doubt everything about yourself, withhold his lectures and make his students feel responsible for it. while this man made me an incoherent anxious wreck at age 18, i still managed to muster up the courage to report him. it was this huge ordeal that spanned the semester but ultimately, we won. i was able to graduate, the school apologized, he apologized and from what i heard from his future students, he got better. while it was one of the proudest moments of my life, the damage was done - he got in my head. he died a few years after that semester but to this day, he's still with me - it'll be 10 years next January. after this experience, i began to prioritize employability and work ethic over everything. my whole identity and sense of self worth can only come from a job well done and a big pay check. my emotional capacity dwindled into pretty much nothing. i lost a lot of friends and the ones i still have, im not even sure i care about. i ended up starting a well paying career in a new field of study, where i work with talented, friendly and amazing people but i can't help but feel like an oil stain on a tie dye shirt when i'm with them. after a decade of his toxic lessons ringing in my ears, i've worn myself down to a nub. i feel like i'm hollow, like i'm truly dead inside. i can't love anyone, i can't identify my own desires and i have trouble even pursuing them because that's just not what's important to me anymore. all that matters to me is efficiency and my ability to make money. i would give it all away in an instant if i could just have real emotions again. if you're a teacher or are in a relationship or are a family member that abuses those that look up to you - please consider changing. you might be hurting them more than you're comfortable with.
I completely disagree with the perspective that Fletcher is trying to create, develop, or cultivate the musicians towards his own vision. This is for two reasons: 1) he never guides them or requires them train doing anything in a way that musicians don’t already do. No special drills, activities, or concepts. 2) when a weak musician is discovered, he doesn’t continue working with them. He’s completely done and dismissive and won’t invest anymore time. Fletcher is more akin to Glass in Unbreakable. He will weed through the millions to find the one piece of carbon he can pressure into becoming a diamond. Is Fletcher’s way the right way? Probably not. Did his methods culminate success in discovering greatness? The movie says, “yes”.
@@ultraguy14 How do you figure? Yes, the ADULT committed suicide, I get that. But it was several years after the student attended Shaffer. Without knowing the whole story about Casey's life, it's purely conjecture to assume Fletcher "drover a kid to suicide". Again, not defending Fletcher, but a LOT could happen in a person's life to make them commit suicide.
@@sil-80nick So he is a success when a prior student way later does go on to be an amazing performer. But he's not a failure when a prior student kills themselves as a direct result of his technique.
What other iconic villains should we cover?
Kathy Bates as Annie Wilkes in Misery
Bill or O-Ren Ishii from Kill Bill Vol 1 + Vol 2
Gary Oldman as Dracula.
Mark Zuckerberg from The Social Network (even though he's an anti-hero)
I'm on his fucking time
I think the scariest part of this villain is that he achieved his goal in a way that forces you to question if he had a point
He did, and I'm wondering why I haven't been offered a video covering it yet.
@@jase9619 I remember it, and to me it's closer, but the analysis still didn't pull away from the victim's perspective.
Exactly!
seriously. I left this movie wondering despite all the things he put andrew through, literally destroying his mind, is this actually affective. You know a movie is good when you start wondering if the villian psychotic nature can be justified in your everyday life.
Effective or no, I think you have to look no further than the number of psychologically damaged artists who become ONLY their work (people who method act to the point of gaining mental disorders or contracting health problems, for example) to question if that kind of route is even worth it.
J.K. Simmons is one of my favorite actors, and his performance in Whiplash was phenomenal. He easily earned that Oscar.
"we are farmers"
I love him as j Jonah Jameson
You serious?
Can he play this role as Cave Johnson? "Science isn't about WHY It's about WHY NOT!... In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you in the butt on the way out because you're fired."
He was in SVU a couple times before BD Wong too
Fletcher is so terrifying mainly because he’s not some alien solider. He’s just a regular guy that you’ve either heard about or worse experienced. Someone who pretty much can turn your art and passion against you. Most villains want to break you physically, fletcher does it mentally
I still see him as a good guy, a great guy even. This is exactly how I want my teachers and coaches to be.
@@francescaerreia8859 7:20
Solider? What is a solider?
@@SalvableRuin soldier
Alien soldier? Is that a reference to Omni-Man from Invincible?
I didn't even realize how purposeful all of fletchers abuse was. I originally thought he was just blinded by his own desire
I don’t know exactly for abusers in general, but I have known a narcissist for a few years. And I can say from experience: they got everything planned out. Everything you say, they could maybe use against you. I was omce in an argument on discord. And he pulled out something I said more than a YEAR ago. Using it as an argument saying ‘what you said here doesn’t line up with what you’re saying now.’
Of course, Fletcher was an abuser, again don’t know if he was specifically a narcissist, but yes, abusers are VERY intelligent. They know what to use and what to do.
I’m happy I left this narcissist literally 3 days ago.
Anyways always keep an eye out! Follow your feeling. If it don’t feel right, it probably isn’t!
Both are true. he's blinded by his own desire, but his expressions of that are deliberate
In my mind, he even took the other drummers notebook, just so he could later break Andrew down by saying he's only in the chair because Andrew "misplaced" it.
@@tocommenter2726 I'm happy you left them too, I had a similar situation like this about 4 years ago on discord, they faked depression to twist me into doing what they wanted or else they would harm themselves and I have a permanent scar on my wrist reminding me of what i did. After not talking to them for about 2 years I tried to get into contact again hoping maybe that they changed, but they didn't not in the slightest and that time I saw right through it and cut all ties with them immediately. But yes it is extremely scary how they will find out just enough about you too twist you into doing what they want
@@shinigamistarship pretty sure that was confirmed in the final scene where someone watched the scene and saw those papers he gave Andrew on stage had some of the exact some notes on the drummers notebook
My father was like this to me playing Rugby League growing up. The mental, and often physical, abuse was something I had to deal with every week. As someone who was a very good footballer, I soon grew to despise the sport. Dreading every game, and hoping I could meet my fathers expectations. By the time I hit 17, I no longer wished to play. To the point where even today, at 32 years old, I rarely watch the sport.
The first time I watched this movie was like reliving my past. It took me to places I thought I had left behind.
I'm glad you got through it
What helped you heal? I am a little younger (older 20s) but am addressing that past instead of just avoiding it. It's quite difficult, any tips?
@@DibbzTV I suppose I never really healed, to be honest. Not fully anyway. I still have a lot of mental problems. I suffer from PTSD, anxiety and stress. I used to have really bad nightmares until I was nearly 30. I was suicidal for a long time with severe depression. It has been the birth of my son, and finding my wife, that has helped me get out of the depression and suicidal thoughts. The dreams have gone away as well.
I suppose perseverance and wanting to be a better dad than my father was has gotten me through a lot.
@@aussieoutlaw17 Thanks 🙏🏼 You sound like a good man, and I admire how you value your family. I dealt with a lot of trauma and esp from a mental abuser for a good portion of my upbringing. I used the rage, emotion, whatever you call it, to fuel my goals and now that I’m older… Let’s just say it’s not the “success”I thought and found myself alone. I’m beginning to focus more on my happiness, which is not easy. I struggle with letting go. God bless man ❤️
@@DibbzTV I was the same. I was alone for a long time. And being angry was a big cause of it. Being able to let go of that rage helped a lot.
God bless you in your future endeavours, and I truly hope you find peace in life. Lord knows we deserve it. All the best in life, my friend.
A terrifying villian isn't one who fights you or even challenges your ideals
It's one who makes you hate yourself and changes you for the worst
the greatest enemie gives you a feeling of false power/hope/love/what ever, just to let reality crush you
Venture bros
So….
Life is the villain?
The Devil.
Dude Fletcher means well
After the final "Caravan" solo scene, Andrew Neiman went on to become one of the best Top Gun pilots of all time, and helped Maverick take down several enemy fighters.
Unlike his divergent cast mates, he kept his career on track
Not after he got pushed again by Maverick
then Spiderhead happened and he gave one of the worst performances of the year lol
Fletcher pulled his papers
Yet, after that he started selling guns and ammo to the US military with his buddy from high school
Fun fact: neiman was on his time, his tempo was perfect. Which I guess just plays as foreshadowing for fletchers character
When Fletcher was slapping him, neiman was off, wasnt he?
@@markmarich2846 nope
It's crazy the attention to detail the writers put into this movie
Neiman was always on his time. Fletcher only testing him because he want his students to be completely perfect and able to notice when something is off.
He even made the audience doubt their sense of timing.
Probably when he tells the other guy that he's out of tune even if he isn't, the script is explaining to us that he's going to do the same with Fletcher's tempo.
The sad part about the movie that a lot a people misunderstand (based on my take/perspective, at least), is that the ending isn’t a triumphant victory story for our protagonist, and in reality, Fletcher achieved his goal of reducing a human down to nothing, and forcing them into his ideal. If our boy doesn’t achieve that level of greatness, Fletcher is left with nothing but a broken toy, and nothing/nobody to validate his psychopathic tactics for reaching his own form of greatness in the world of music
You same to watch a different movie i would go along to say you and the op of thid vedio did.
Wtf are you talking about? Andrew took all the abuse and pain and all that he sacrificed in practicing and focusing his mind in the music, took the worst abuse Fletcher could throw at him, and played so well he blew Fletcher away. A broken toy would have left with his dad crying. Andrew persevered and overcame, just like Charlie Parker. Fletcher and Andrews goals were the same, they both were triumphant.
It could be seen either way, its up to the viewer to interpret whether the ends justify the means, so to say. Some would argue that the cruelty of fletchers means do not justify the end result of perhaps one of the great drummers of history. While others might say that the end result makes up for the cruelty. Its subjective, as any art should be to a degree.
i've been through more extremes than this film & i would never want to go back in time & erase them. i'm so much stronger because of it.
@@gonkdroid9325 but I don't know if you can call him a villain, regardless of how cruel he was. Both he and Andrew have the same goals, they're in direct opposition in numerous circumstances on how they want to achieve those goals, but in the end they both accomplish their goals and the movie ends with them no longer in conflict but as equals. I believe Andrew would argue his performance was the culmination of both their goals, meaning he would (likely) agree that Fletcher's ends justified the means. I think you can state that objectively, based on how the movie portrays both Fletcher and Andrew's characters.
Jk Simmons performed the role so well that I actually felt nervous and sick to my stomach whenever he yelled at neiman
When J. K. Simmons' character demanded that poor teen for some seemingly impossible pictures of Spider-Man, I really felt that.
omegalol
Ahem….
Omni-Man: Am I a joke to you?
The pictures really did seem impossible. Almost like someone with incredible acrobatic talents, and superhuman capabilities took them. That Parker kid must really be amazing. At photography, I mean.
Think, Neiman! What will you have in 500 years?
The escalation in the “not my tempo” scene is one of the most chilling things I have seen on screen, as to how real it seems
It's so fascinating because we've all felt the chemical reaction occur when someone we love and respect is disappointed in us.
The worst part is that there are people in real life who genuinely think it's ok to abuse people like this "because it will make them better artists"
Turn my pages!!
I think it’s really crazy that, after this movie came out one of my Band Directors said that he really loved Fletcher. It made me see him as a completely different person after that.
Good job. You should always be comfortable doing whatever and wherever. :)
Drill sergeant
What’s even more terrifying is Fletcher is proven “right” by the end of the movie. His insane tactics drive Andrew to become great, so Fletcher feels all of his actions were justified.
I'm getting the sense that everyone who finds this villain especially terrifying is because they've been put in a position, one way or another, where they've had to face a serious ball-breaker like Fletcher.
Incredible performance from J.K. Simmons, too. He really sells it. I think we can all put ourselves in Andrew's shoes in many parts throughout the movie
*Exactly* he gives off PTSD
> I'm getting the sense that everyone who finds this villain especially terrifying is because they've been put in a position, one way or another, where they've had to face a serious ball-breaker like Fletcher.
Right on target! And I'd take it further. Those who see Terrence as the key to "greatness," "excellence," "craft," whatever, have had to face that same kind of ball breaking personality - but they have a _lesser opinion_ of those who cannot or will not go thru that. They are very likely to be condescending.
more than terrifying i found him really, really annoying, i dont know why nobody except neiman tries to beats him, he with time will just trigger the atomic response in everyone, think of having to endure this guy bullshits for years
@@RatPfink66yeah I can relate
He reminds me of my dad in a lot of ways.
The fact that J.K.Simmons won an Oscar for his performance was long deserved. He's appeared in over two hundred films and has portrayed diverse characters on TV shows.
Haven't seen much of his work but I think this was probably his best performance tbh
^ Yup. He was fucking phenomenal in this movie.
What I find the most amazing and scary about Terence Fletcher is that he's a "villain" that actually wins at the end. In a way, if Neiman succeeded in music it was because of Fletcher.
Not necessarily, we can easily make the case that he succeeded *despite* what Fletcher did. He already practiced incredibly hard, and may certainly have risen to the same heights under another, kinder teacher. That's actually what I loved most about the film - that we're left with that ambiguity at the end. There's no ambiguity about Fletcher being a monster though, having literally caused some kids' suicides. He absolutely shouldn't be in the position he's in. His pathology means that he *will* take credit for Neimann's success after the show though. Brilliant characters all around, and it was easily my fave film of the year.
@@overseastom and now Neiman is probably going to commit suicide himself
@@overseastom bullshit
@@overseastom thats a hypothetical scenario though. Its more a long the lines of Joker trying to make Batman cross the line and break his one rule: no killing. You could just as easily argue that the abuse he endured from Fletcher pushed him to the heights he got to. Even Fletcher remarks in the film that (paraphrasing) “anyone can say good job, and thats why talent is so sparse now-a-days”.
You also have to remember that they are both wanting of the same thing: to be the best. Fletcher does not have the skill to do what Neyman can, but Neyman is also not as smart as Fletcher and is no where near as experienced to meet his goal. They literally can only both get to the top from the others success.
And no one is arguing that Fletcher is not the Antagonist of the story or that abuse is ok. It’s supposed to be about “no pain, no gain” and that usually suffering is what leads to greatness in any story. Characters who never struggle are always forgotten, and it’s the journey to becoming legendary in your craft
@@overseastom he still made it fulfilling Fletcher's objective
As a person who did a lot of sports and music while young, I've seen this kind of shit happen to some of my friends growing up. This movie hit super close to home and very scary.
As a musician whose teacher was an asshole, this movie had me crying
Yes
I am ao sorry for you.
I recently (half a year ago) started doing martial arts.
To be detailed, Hema which is historical fencing with e.g longswords or polearms
Because in this sport you use tactics that were designed to kill I always expected a very diciplined and harsh atmosphere there but truth is that everyone is super supportive there so I suppose I was really lucky!
I really hope more and more people will find a healthy environment for their dream!
I tried to watch a scene of the movie as a way to desensitize myself about some music teachers I know. Tried to on and off for years. A decade later, I still fantasize about what I could do to Fletcher with a rusty blade. Clearly I still have issues. 😵💫
my band teacher lashed out at me for something that didn’t need to be brought up in front of the class. i just wish teachers and people in general can be more respectful of others, since shit like that can mentally hurt you
Something note worthy here is that as a musician, it is more difficult to listen to yourself while playing complicated patterns and tempos than what non-musicians might think. Therefore, not understading where a mistake lies when corrected by a director is way more common that one's ego would like to admit. With or without an abusing direction, this happens a lot when dealing with high pressure situations. Great video!
Agreed. I used to be a musician and was in a marching band once. It is difficult to really hear what mistake you made especially in more complicated tempos and pieces as you have said.
Not to mention that there is an inherent trust present when you assume the role of mentee that your mentor is going to actually *_mentor_* you, not lie to you.
Honestly, any student who would refuse to accept blame when their mentor tells them they messed up would be difficult to teach - perhaps even impossible, depending on severity - even if the protégé is in the right. You aren't going to do everything perfectly, or you wouldn't be the student. The entire purpose of having coaches, directors, etc. is to use their experience to correct mistakes the pupil doesn't know they're making or doesn't know how to fix.
That scene where the musician is gaslit into believing that he screwed up beautifully demonstrates Fletcher's priorities. Not music, not art, not teaching. Tormenting. Ensuring to everyone - likely to himself most of all - that he holds absolute control.
Ray Charles and James Brown were famous for sensing who wasn’t on the right notes and practically abused their teams
But you gotta admire dedication to the music craft for perfection
@@ninjanibba4259 you mean infamous and yeah, something that people will tolerate if they're working at the top with people like them
Absolutely. You often need an "objective" ear to guide you, so you're at the mercy of their honesty/accuracy. Whenever my band would record a take, it was often better or worse when we played it back than we thought while playing it at the time.
I personally think this movie is less about the terrors of an external abuser and more about the dangers of self inflicted perfectionism. We must be careful how we arrange our value hierarchies so we don’t fall prey to this kind of abuse, either external or from within.
Fair enough. I really didn't know where the movie was going until Fletcher started slapping the kid, then I was like, "what the hell," toward both of them. Maybe I've just lived long enough to have way too much perspective and self-respect to even fathom staying in that room one more second after the guy bitch-slapped me, but that's what I would hope anyone's response would be--time to go! And also time to report that SOB. To watch anything else says something profound about that character, not just Fletcher. Honestly, it did kind of pull me out of the movie, how do you have a room full of men who tolerate a new kid getting slapped and crying? Pretty unrealistic. I kinda struggled with that sort of unbelievability throughout the movie.
True. It seems like some people put all the responsibility on the abuser, while ignoring the victims role. It isn't good to victim-blame but people should be aware of abusive behavior and ways they can escape that abuse.
@@stevenking4617To address the believability of the scene you mentioned. When you put yourself in the context of the scene, these guys are in one of the most prestigious jazz classes in the world, their entire future might rest on their performance in the class. They obviously are unsettled by the slap, but they have become desensitized to this kind of behavior, and likely tolerate it given the stakes. So, in context, it makes sense to me.
@gonkdroid9325 you literally are victim blaming. Victims have no “role” in anything.
@@gonkdroid9325ok…what if instead of an abusive teacher. It’s an abusive parent?
You learn everything about the world and how it functions through your parents, so much so that if you were abused as a kid, you’re less likely to recognise that abuse as an adult.
You’ll do anything to receive those tiny crumbs of praise because that’s what you’ve been taught love is.
Your logic is the same that doesn’t understand the complex psychology of why a woman would stay with a husband who beats her. It’s not as simple as “just leave”.
In the case of the film, we know exactly why he tolerates that abuse. Just look at the way his family treats him. They don’t see music as worthwhile (as do a lot of families) but everyone enjoys music by the best musicians.
If he can become the best drummer, he’ll finally get the recognition from his family that he once had as a kid.
Abuse victims will do anything to get love and appreciation from their abuser. I’ve seen it over and over again in my own life and those I care about.
I think whats also terrifying about this guy is how many people were and still are defending, justifying and even glorifying his abuse. I won't claim there's a slippery slope between having a positive opinion of the character and his actions (however undeserved or problematic) and becoming an abuser, we don't need that kind of fallacy to make a point, but it is scary how some people can see such blatant abuse and manipulation and think "yeah, this is just the way things should be in music school".
Lots of (presumably male) commenters under this video perpetuating toxic masculinity. Yay.
Just a bunch of abuse loving dumbass who get turned on of being yelled at i suppose
A well deserved Oscar win for J.K. Simmons. Both him and Allison Janney played the title character's supportive parents in "Juno", before nabbing Oscars as emotionally abusive parental figures!
Good catch
Thats interesting, and I don't know the actress, was she the mom in the fighter?
Sidenote with my fun fact, Simmons filmed his entire part in 4 days or something like that
Abusive parent figure? Nope not at all you don't choose your parents, you choose your teachers, what what purpose suits you.
@@stephengrigg5988 No, the mom in _The Fighter_ was Melissa Leo.
@@stephengrigg5988 she’s the mum in i Tonya
J.K. Simmons really channeled some amazing energy & viciousness into this role. It's really amazingwhat he did.
I had a teacher like this and the terrifying part for me was not him yelling and shouting at me, instead it was when he would go quiet, say nothing or ignored and did not care about my work or at times giving a not convincing nod of approval.
Sounds like a scary teacher. Silence can build far more anxiety than shouting from certain people. At high school there was a music teacher like that. I honestly might get my reply removed if I repeated the things you'd hear him screaming at the orchestra. I'm Scottish and swearing is common here but teachers aren't allowed to do it but he didn't care less. I doubt he'd get away with it nowadays. The weird thing is that I had him as a teacher for a music module in my last year and he seems really calm and cool. A bit of a Jekyll and Hyde character.
@@TheLadyDelirium Was he actually good at it ? if he was then maybe he knew what he was doing, I have actually picked some of that myself, not to that degree though, but if I care about someone and think they have the potential and the will to become great I burst into flames with them and push them harder, but with the ones that I consider lost cause I do not care at all.
I like this movie because I relate to it so much. My marching band director was kinda like fletcher. Not to the point where she would hit us or throw chairs but as close as you legally could get to that. She would sometimes make us go without water if we messed up. She would make us run laps even if we said one word when standing at attention. She didn't even care if a bee was about to sting you she would make you run laps if you moved during standing at attention. And she made us march in everything; snow, rain, scorching heat, sand. Everything. There was never a break never a rest. It was so bad this one kid even passed out standing at attention once.
And the countless drills and marching practice and..oh my goodness. But after all of that I'm proud of what I did and what I was part of. She took a bunch of us slackers and nobodys and made us into something great. Music is a difficult industry but if you're tough and determined the world is yours.
silence is the worst
Did we live the same life?!
Just watched this again recently, finally grasping that the ending was NOT a good ending when you consider what happened to Fletcher’s former student 😢
Well, andrew did say that he was fine dying young as long as he was remembered as one of the greats. It was not a happy ending for everyone, but for andrew and fletcher, it is.
@@KanderUdon true true
@@KanderUdonIf that truly was what Andrew wanted, then fair enough. But I suspect that he only wanted that because of how he’s been shaped by American society, and how it idolizes individual “success”above literally anything else.
I was still in high school when i first saw this movie with fellow band mates. All of us laughed and kinda cheered at how accurate his portrayal of an abusive teacher was as our band director was very similar, just not as loud. During pandemic i revisited the movie and no lie i had a severe anxiety attack. It didn't dawn on me just how badly that band director hurt my mental health during my teenage years and surprised me how it carried over into my adult life unknowingly. Say what you want about this current generation of kids and how "soft" they are, but im glad they now have the resources to more easily go after those in authority overstepping boundaries. That director eventually was fired but only after numerous complaints like the one portrayed in film
Omg🙄🙄😒😒 literally every kid who has ever gone to school in the history of kids going to school has had at least one mean teacher who made them dread going to class, and we all made it out alive and still became successful, happy, functioning adults. GenZ are the only ones who've have to have their non-binary emotional balls stroked and can't get through a single through normal negative human experience without crying about their "anxiety" "abusive" and "mental health".
"Betterhelp" was created because they're literally the first generation that needs a therapist on speed dial.
J.K Simmons is incredible. No one else could be J Jonah Jameson.
"You serious??"
Hey, when life gives you lemons…
don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons, what the hell am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!
@@zethines6495 That's when you learn in Portal 2 that he's lost it. Absolutely fantastic performance.
Or Omni-Man….
Vernon Schillinger would like a word with you...
What I find fascinating is how many of the people I know view it more like a sports film, where the coach is trying to get the most out of his athletes, and thus interpret Simmons' behavior as acceptable, instead of recognizing it as terrifying abuse. I suppose some people assume that the ends justify the means when it comes to certain social activities for the masses.
I think he manages to abuse the audience too, to the point where by the end we too believe "oh yes, the tempo is perfect, he really just wanted to help him become perfect". We suffered through everything with the protagonist and in the end, we feel what he does. Completely fallen for the abuse and manipulation.
Then add the fact that this is something that happens irl, we are being told irl that the end justifies the means...
I don’t think the ends justify the means, I just don’t see the issue with the means. No one forced his students to be there. If they don’t think it’s worth it, they can leave. He doesn’t even seem scary to me, just like someone who wants the best for and from his students. He actually cares unlike most of the garbage teachers out there. I wish more teachers and coaches were like this. We’d have a lot more greatness.
@@francescaerreia8859 and a lot more suicides
@@francescaerreia8859 "no one forced them to be there" yeah they 'only' have to be saddled with debt, leave the school and fight for increasingly fewer slots in other music schools with lesser reputations (because of people like you that valorise abuse) that are themselves being cannibalised by even more incompetent monsters like Fletcher
I think that’s what pissed me of the most about Terence Fletcher and also the film as a whole when I finished it : the fact that a lot of people would find his downright evil behavior acceptable, just because the character manipulates the audience just as much as the students in the film.
I haven't met J. K. personally, but a few of my friends have while working with his late parents. He (and his parents were too) is universally kind and thoughtful.
I think you have to be an amazingly gentle person to understand how to act like an obscenely brutal one.
During the love bombing scene the placing of the hand on the wall behind the victim is also establishing physical dominance over the victim by invasion of personal space in a passive way to appear as a looming presence.
I think what makes him terrifying is there are people like that right now teaching. Simmons simply became this character and was amazing.
Actually folks I’ve met JK Simmons in Missoula, Montana and he has been open about his father being the inspiration for this character.
How was JK in person?
You left out the most tragic part: Fletcher succeeds perfectly in shaping a great performer out of the protagonist through his abuse, and by the final performance he's so psyched out and taking charge of the stage by sheer spite and pride, that Fletcher can't do nothing but nod and play along, even helping keeping the drum set from falling apart. We begin the movie thinking he's giving "tough love", then we see it for the abuser he is, then he misdirects with the story about Charlie Parker and the cymbal throwing, and then it comes crashing again into downright abuse - AND THEN it all actually works in shaping a great perfomer, in both a triumph for the music and a great moral defeat.
I just replied to someone else that said a similar thing, but I think the beauty of the film is the ambiguity of it - sure, Neiman succeeds in the end, but it could just as easily be *despite* Fletcher's methods, not because of them. Neiman practices extremely hard and has drive already, and we simply don't know how he would perform under a kinder, gentler teacher. Perhaps just as well, we'll simply never know. We do know however, that Fletcher has literally driven people to suicide, and perhaps they could have been musical greats too. So I don't think it's as simply as "Fletcher succeeds in his methods", but rather is left to interpretation, which I think truly makes the film a modern classic. It was my favourite film the year it came out, and the exact type of movie I hope to see every time I go to the cinema.
@@overseastom see, true, but that's the thing - coulda, woulda, but Neiman, in those circumstances, arose to the challenge in anger, in what could probably be seen as a breakdown or (probably more accurately) a display of mental fortitude, which already separates him from those that collapsed under the immense pressure. Sure the others who committed suicide might have been great, too, but they weren't the type of greatness Fletcher was trying to abuse into being. Neiman ended up becoming just that, in the end, with the furious performance crowning his success AND Fletcher's, with it being a reaction to the abuse either way.
@@GabrielMisfire I hear you, but it doesn't show the aftermath at all, just Neiman succeeding in that very moment. The first thing he might have done after the concert is tell the press there that Fletcher abused the ever-loving fuck out of him and that he even tried to sabotage him *that very night* too. I know what you mean though - Fletcher's methods *didn't* break Neiman and we witness him doing something amazing, so it almost seems like a justification for his methods. That's what I mean about the ambiguity though - you're not wrong, it's just that we don't see what goes on right afterwards, meaning Fletcher doesn't necessarily "win" at all. We just know Neiman didn't lose.
I think if they were actually going for ambiguity with the ending it could have been pulled pff a lot better. The way the film ends of such a high note with the music continuing into the credits right after the performance is shown to be a success, it seems like the film is doing everything to end on a “good” note and not have people question things. I’m one of the people who thinks the film was truly excellent, right up until the very end when it shows that, wether because of or in spite of Fletcher, Andrew did become a great performer. Now, this could have been handled very interestingly if they hadn’t chosen to go with all the fast cuts and upbeat credit sequence. Imagine if the final performance had played out in a static wide shot as he plays through perfectly, we see Fletchers look of approval and then cut to black, silence. Then there would be some real moral ambiguity: did Fletche win? And either way, what do we as an audience think and feel about it? The was it was presented was quite manipulative and I feel many people end up just thinking it has a “good” ending (just read most of the positive reviews and see how few make any references to the morally difficult questions this film asks). Wether or not Andrew succeeds in his performance in the end because of *or* despite Fletcher’s methods, either way the result is that the film is saying that, in this story, the abuse we witnessed achieved “greatness”. And again, I’m not saying the ending to the story needed to be changed, I just wish they had leaned into a sense ambiguity and actually invited the audience to think about exactly what happened. (I’m preacing to the coverted here as both of you commenters clearly have thought about the ending a lot, but just scan through most reviews and comments and you can see how most people just see the ending as Andrew winning or achieving his goals and that this is a good thing)
Also, I would argue that wether Fletcher won or lost, either way Neiman *did* lose. He lost his initial love for music driven by personal passion, he lost his college years to anxiety and mental abuse, he lost out on relationships, I could go on. Yes, he managed to pull off a great performance. Can we really call that winning? The only reason we as an audience even “know” that it’s a “great” performance is that we see Fletcher’s reaction and we blindly trust him. On another related note, I see Neiman as an equally problematic character. Even if from the start his passion for music wasn’t initially driven by wanting to be “great”, it very quickly became so. Are we supposed to just go along rooting for his “success” withour questioning what it is he actually wants? The inherent wrong in Fletcher’s actions should be obvious, but I think there’s also something to be said for Neiman’s own approach to music, here a proxy for art generally, as a competition. So even if my above point is argued that Neiman *did* in fact “win”, I can’t say I think this is in anyway a good thing. What does it show? That if through mental and physical abuse suffered atthe hands of others and yourself you can achieve your own narrow view of “greatness” that needs validation by somone else, in this case the actual abuser?
Anyway, it’s a really well made film and always gets me thinking, but I wish they had chosen to dive into these questions a bit more instead of what they did with the ending.
I remember being in the same room when my parents were watching this movie. The Rushing or Dragging scene actually scared little 8-11 year old me to the point of tears LOL
Got me to the point of tears when I'm 16
I don’t think an 8-11 year old should be watching something like this 😅
Did you forget your age in 2014?
@@juarezamorim nah I'm just younger. Watched it this year because I only got into watching movies around last year soo ://
@@JONPIAASU98 probably just thought it was a film about drumming lmao 💀
This movie gave me anxiety watching it. It was about the same experience for me when I decided to go to the U of Akron for jazz studies in 2007. All of these tactics were present minus the physical violence. I dropped out and was basically alienated by colleagues and teachers because I decided to speak up for myself. Everyone decided I was "entitled" and "too sensitive," and told "didnt want it enough" and have a "victim mentality" to justify abuse. I never needed a competative mindset to get better. I felt the change in my brain happening. Now I don't play jazz. I feel alone. Music is not as fun anymore. Yall won. Good job.
Maybe you could try playing music again but just play what you like and do it at your own pace. Music is something you can teach yourself to an extent. You don't need other people's permission to play music. Hope that helps.
@Rachel Smith Thank you for showing some tenderness. The funny thing is is that I've known what you are saying since I started playing, and i do just that. Its still a shame and its depressing to feel limited in where i can express myself. I don't know if you're familiar with the politics around this area, but it's a small world in this music scene. An imagined scarcity and gatekeepeing are staples of it. Everyone knows each other. And one can only get so far as an island.
Part of what makes his portrayal so scary is how he can be nice when he chooses - but you know the flip out is right around the corner. My mom was the same way growing up. Even when they seem ok you can never relax and it’s exhausting. You always walk on eggshells even though it won’t prevent the inevitable.
It’s %100 why I suffer from anxiety today
A perfect example of how good of a villain he is, you pronounce Andrew’s last name wrong when you introduce the character. Fletcher says his last name wrong the entire movie just as that extra “you are beneath me”
It’s Nay-men not knee-men
This became such a missed detail that almost everyone after watching the movie and talking about the character refers to him as "knee-man." This was such an interesting bit that most people missed, I'm always happy to see somebody catch it.
I noticed that too.
Americans are specialists in butchering names.. So i am not sure if this was intentional.
@dilldough3588 no one asked delusional kid
@@hustlecoder1673 i mean i'm not american and i get the "haha amurican dum" streotype, but doesn't literally EVERYONE no matter the culture butcher names?
Simmons’ ability to evoke menace here is chilling
J.K. Simmons went to my university! He was still well remembered in the 2010's as a wonderful pupil, friend, and human.
What's fascinating about this movie is that it portrays violence without actually using any real weapons: no typical guns blazing, knives slashing, or bombs exploding. Think about the theme: just musicians playing jazz, this shouldn't be so terrifying, and yet the filmmakers made us sit at the edge of our seats. Bravo!
violence is behavior specifically involving physical force. It is not accurate to use this term in place of abuse, which I think is more accurate. Not to shit on your comment, its still valid, I just don't like when words become redefined for no reason.
When I was enlisted, this movie came out. It was an instant hit among the Joes. Many of us reminisced about the days of training, where people were routinely broken on a daily basis. I think we enjoyed the fact we were not alone.
I am shocked more recruits don't kill their drill instructor. I have heard of it happening at times though.
I was proud of myself for making it through training. It really did make me a stronger person and Im out of the Military now and that strength and confidence carried over into my professional and personal life.
So there's a certain kind of breaking down that is good when the purpose is build you up stronger and better. The people who do it with that intention are always proud of you in the end; your success is their end game.
There's another kind of breaking down that is just an bully, arrogant, or insecure person in power who does it to inflate their own ego and to keep down people who they are threatened by ... there were a lot of NCO's like that in the military too.
The final scene of this film is killer. Riveting, utterly dramatic, and totally satisfying.
a whiplash you could say.
I actually had a lot of teachers and employers like Fletcher but the most clear cut one was my 1A driving instructor. My school successfully convinced me I was a born tradesman (I wasn't, I'm an academic in a field adjacent to civil engineering), and after asking for help from family and friends, I got the money to take a semi driving program and that guy was tough.
He was Fletcher through and through. Our first day in the rig, he didn't show us anything about how it worked, he just told us he was leaving the seat and demanded we get in before it crashed. Then, he'd berate and scream at us until we each cried and broke down and either did crash (because we didn't know how to drive it), or we put it in neutral and gave up. Compliments from him were always followed by lectures and berating.
I think what made Fletcher so terrifying and this movie relatable is that a lot of us have had a Fletcher in our lives; some sort of over the top pushing bossy person that pushed us to be great but in horrible ways. But sometimes Fletchers are kind of necessary the non abusive ones but close to being. I wouldn't have learned a lot without those Fletchers in my life. I think it's good to have someone push you to be your best but it is never good when it actually harms you and your mental health and physical wellbeing. Regardless I hope you're doing well and are better.
@@Goddessღ Even if a teacher doesn’t physically abuse a student, I think there is a difference Between a teacher that is structured, has appropriate expectations out of students. And holding them accountable. And what we saw fletcher do in the film, a good teacher doesn’t do that by insulting or insinuating that they’re going to insult someone, and of course They need to have appropriate expectations, if someone is brand stinking new, than throwing them in the lake method is not always appropriate. It be one thing if someone already had training and knows what to do, however they still lack confidence. So you use that method to instill confidence in them. But that’s different.And I think we have plenty of examples of teachers in our lives that were firm but fair. Meaning they don’t use the tactics that we saw Fletcher do in the movie. In any capacity. And to be firm but fair means that you hold somebody to a standard, you make sure they follow it, but you don’t do it by belittling them or taking the humanity out of them. Like treating them like a tool without personal agency . You’re not forcing them to only seek your approval, and nothing else. You’re making sure they understand the material, and why it’s important to follow it.
I remember when this movie came out, a lot of people felt the ending was happy. I never felt happy for Andrew because of what he went through. But then I saw a video analyzing that Whiplash is darker than what people think. It also mentioned that the director himself said that he saw Andrew having success as a drummer, but, he would die at a young age from a drug overdose. That's when it hit me that this ending was never meant to be happy. Or as Chazelle said, it's a sad happy ending. And that made more sense to me because Fletcher crossed the line so many times to where he's lucky that he only got fired from his job. But it's crazy that people see the ending as one of triumph. Even though there's clear cut evidence that says otherwise.
The fact that people loved him when he was in spiderman until they found out that he was in whiplash is pretty funny because in this movie he’s more aggresive but in spiderman he’s more of a comedy character
I remember watching this movie with a group who said it was unrealistic how easily he was broken by JK. I have been in the MCs place, not with music, but in general in a relationship. When you already have issues/weaknesses, and you meet somebody who removes them from your head and makes you finally feel good about yourself and happy etc, then they begin to make you feel like you are failing them or doing something wrong before moving into tearing your very fiber of a being down, it can fuck you up and make you do things you never did before. Sometimes positive, but most of the times negative. I ended up getting PTSD from that relationship. So many times people think of severe shit like PTSD from someone being in a war, but do not realize there are many forms of PTSD and ways of getting it. People in relationships with someone like Fletcher are usually the ones that end up in abusive relationships, and they have the victim right where they want them, and that is why you will see people staying with abuser or going back. It's almost like you want to prove to them you are good enough for them, impress them, you become their puppet. Just like you see him do here. In the end it's not even about himself anymore, it's about him wanting to be good enough for Fletcher.
You didn't see any hatred for Fletcher, or at least defiance, when he went up on that stage at the end? You think it was just his last chance to fulfill some desperate need for approval?
I seriously go into fight or flight mode whenever I see the mere image of this guy. Great analysis, as usual
I think we can all relate to Neman, especially from school. I know the feeling, as well as everybody else, how it feels to get singled out and ridiculed. The dread of not being good enough, of ones failure, and their mistakes, can really suffocate you over time. J.K Simmons’ portrayal of fletcher is almost a perfect amalgamation of this feeling. Whiplash conveyed these emotions to the viewer perfectly and is what makes it such a genius film.
Finally you did the video I've been waiting for. I love this movie and the acting performances very well done from everyone involved
He so desperately wanted to please him. Especially with how undermined he felt in his own family, he sought approval from another adult. This is such a relatable reality for so many including myself. That I think it also made the film so impactful.
The way he stands over Andrew in the end of the movie and just says "I'm not stupid, I know it was you" before walking away is just perfect.
I'd love to see J.K. Simmons cast as Hades in a Disney live action Hercules movie. He'd have the wit and rage down perfectly!
Why would you say this?
Why do you want Disney to ruin more properties of oldies?
@@ninjanibba4259 like Disney's gonna listen to my opinions.... Calm down dude.
I honestly just wish they stopped portraying Hades as an evil rage filled person rather than a reserved leader like he is in the mythology. If anyone's evil it's Zeus and Hera, Hercules's parents.
I mean you could paint James Woods blue and he would be perfectly ghoulish reprising that role.
JK Simmons as Zeus however would be great seeing as Rip Torn is dead.
I'll never forget how it felt watching this movie for the first time. The twist that he was completely obessed and abusive was truly shocking, since I knew nothing about the movie going in, and the solo at the end was so unbelievably intense, and then triumphant. Yet it's also such a dark movie when you look at the themes. I love Whiplash, and JK Simmons is fucking amazing in it.
I'm glad I knew what I was getting into bc otherwise idk if I'd be able to watch it
@@flask223 I truly didn't know whether to laugh or cry when he said the line, "THEN WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T YOU SAY SO!?" Before that, I thought it was just going to be about a mentor/mentee relationship. And after that almost the entire movie is full of dread and tension.
This movies by the way is one my my top 3 favorite movies of the 2010s. I love it.
Interesting lighting on that first scene: Teller dressed in white, but the head bowed in shadow, while Simmons dressed in black, almost invisible except for the head, which is lit. Further, it appears that as the movie progresses Teller's character starts to dress like Simmons'. Guy before Teller in green, guy after in red... Interesting choices.
I had a film teacher who was really manipulative, never physically assaulting or shouting but he was the most manipulative man I’ve ever heard. Always placing himself as the victim, lying to protect himself, breaking and then appropriating our ideas and when we would say anything to him, he would make us feel guilty and angry against ourselves. He made of a lot of my classmates drop cinema. That’s why Whiplash is so important to me, that movie denounces this type of behavior that I personally lived.
sort comments by newest and read the two above you, clearly this movie is very polarising
“No such thing as bad student only bad teacher.”
- Mr. Miyagi, The Karate Kid
JK dominated this role obviously but Miles Teller is no slouch. I think he’s one of the most underrated actors in Hollywood right now.
And at the end he wins; Andrew becomes exactly who Fletcher wants him to become
Whiplash holds a very special place for me because little did I know after seeing it, I lived it. I followed my dream and ended up apprenticing for a "Master" in my craft, and he was every bit of Fletcher and then some. Short of me crashing a car and showing up bloodied and dazed, I ran myself into the ground for over a year trying to win the respect of this person. Nothing I did was ever good enough, I was constantly berated and humiliated in front of the other employees, and I eventually had my first ever mental breakdown. Looking back I should have had more self respect and left on my own terms, but I'd never quit anything in my life to that point. I was eventually thrown under the bus by one of the employees for something I didn't do and was fired. But alls well that ends well, because I have my own shop now and I'm mastering the craft on my own terms.
We had a teacher like this back in college, most of us drop on 1st week or two, he also had a student that commited suicide. This method could work to bring out the best of people's mind, but with a seriously steep cost.
Simmons is an AMAZING actor. He can fall into any role and make it work perfectly for him.
*_If Omni-Man tells you to be on his time, you better be lmao_*
He reminds me of my Mother after drinking. Definitely a terrifying experience to be screamed at, while anyone around won't help, and your tears don't matter to whoever is screaming in your face.
I would love your thoughts on Miranda Priestly from The Devil Wears Prada. Similar tactics, but lacks the love bombing. It seems like she doesn't care about Andrea until the very end.
There’s a great video on RUclips that says the devil wears prada did everything this film did, first. But guys don’t watch TDWP because it’s about fashion.
What I learned about training in solitude is that the sacrifice to endure pain for further growth has to be voluntary. The reason I find "tough love" detrimental, aside from just how demeaning it is, is that it heightens the feelings of anxiety, fear, inadequacy, shame and despair, particularly if you are being ridiculed in front of others.
A good leader/coach/custodian will try to understand their student's strengths and weaknesses, and will not need to rely on malicious negativity to help them achieve their potential.
This video breakdown was insanely executed. Ya'll never fail to hit the bullseye 🔥🔥🔥
I remember watching this move and how scarily relatable it was to my experience in High School band Obviously my Band teacher was no where near as extreme as a J.K. Simon's Fletcher, but there was some pretty close moments. The movie was literally a type of PTSD experience for me. This movie is so real sometimes that it really truly is Terrifying. I also loved it haha.
This is one of my favorite movies of all time and more than half of that praise is due to JK Simmons. What a terrifying and utterly fantastic performance
"Do you know what I want?"
"You want perfection"
"No. I want... PICTURES OF SPIDERMAN"
"Get the fuck out of my sight before I demolish you"
this made me laugh and shiver at the same damn time
Fletcher is terrifying because he's extremely reliable. We all encountered or even experienced someone that's at least to an extent like Fletcher.
I haven’t seen this movie, but I think I need to now. This is a terrifying villain.
Miles deserved an Oscar nomination his performance was great too!
This is an amazing movie! One where the antagonist and protagonist ultimately BOTH achieve their goals!!
What an amazing breakdown. I've watched this movie about 10 times. Never realized what you suggested about his "musicians in the family?" question. Well done.
While not nearly as extreme, I had a similar experience in drum line. It was like being in the Marines but for drums. 5am wake up with cymbals. Playing passed the point of bleeding. Berating in front of the entire band. The movie really wasn't that far off. Very well done.
Great movie. It strangely helped me understand that there are big risks when chasing a dream or that some dreams aren't worth the sacrifice of one's health or relationships.
This should've been in the Horror genre...movie actually had me scared for the pro whole time!...Really great actors
The scene that hit the hardest was JK in the hall talking with his friend and his friends daughter. It’s scary how people can become so two faced which is why the film horrified me but I enjoyed every second of it 10/10 movie
Years ago, I couldn’t finish this movie, the tactics were too « triggering ». Now I make videos on this topic. Excellent analysis of toxic tactics, well done 👍🏼
It's interesting how there is a dichotomy between some of the comments as to whether or not he should be viewed as a villain. There really is a "sleep in the van" mentality towards pro musicianship that I think music culture as a whole needs to grow out of; as you acknowledged, it's very abusive.
it's not just music culture, its every competitive activity. a lot of people like to think this abuse is not only normal, but healthy for getting to the top.
@@erubin100 I agree
@@ArtamisBot Adam Neely has an excellent video about this topic, where he reveals what touring in the modern age actually costs in terms of money snd logistics. "Sleep in the van" is a complete non solution, mostly suggested by people who have never been on tour
@@ileutur6863 I've seen his video, it's very good
This is such an amazing psychological breakdown of this great movie ❤️
Im kinda sad that JK keeps getting abusive roles considering how sweet he is offscreen. But he keeps delivering Oscar worthy performances so I'm sure he's doing alright
Lol JK is making bank, dont be sad for him, be happy that he gets all these dope ass roles
Not true - he's a teddy bear in those Farmer's commercials.
I had a band director just like this in middle school. I can tell you that Simmons perfectly showed the dynamic of a good jazz band director.
I've encountered a few monsters like him, mainly in the realm of sports coaching. Their most malignant legacy is causing their victims to hate a sport they used to love and derive such joy from. It's tainted forever.
Thanks for this. After watching this video, I gave the movie a watch. Thoroughly enjoyed it! 💜
Up until everything everywhere all at once came out this was my number one movie. This movie is just so incredible. One of the best endings ever
If you cross Duke Ellington with Gunnery Sergeant Hartman, you get Terence Fletcher
"There is nothing more terrifying than a narcissistic sociopath driven by a warped sense of purpose, sitting in a position of power."
Dam that line hits so hard even for our society. You hit the nail right on the head.
This man made me appreciate my orchestra conductor so much more than I did before I watched this movie 😮💨
While I agree he's an abusive manipulator, I think the subversive element that his tactics may have accomplished their goal is what makes this movie interesting and the ending hit so hard. I'm pretty sure Chazelle has even said there is an ambiguity in his mind in an interview.
The ambiguity is what makes this movie so good.
@@Aster_Risk It's truly rare that a drama film has such high stakes. This is one of the most satisfying films Ive ever seen.
Wtf I just randomly decided to watch this movie last night! Amazing performances:)
"I WILL BURN THIS BAND DOWN. BEFORE I SPEND ANOTHER MINUTE. LISTENING TO YOU NOT PLAYING ON TEMPO!"
i cried after watching whiplash because it made me question if his abuse was excusable and justified, and if i were pressured like this any response from me other than obedience and submission would be invalid and selfish if i weren’t willing to suffer for greatness or the fulfilment of others’ expectations. i will admit that i completely don’t know the truth yet, but this man shook me to my core
What's terrifying about watching Fletcher is the awareness that I'll probably fall for his manipulative tactics when placed in a position similar to Neiman. The desire to please a person of authority who seemingly got his whole shit figured out is just too strong. I have enough self-awareness to know how I'm (and many people are) susceptible to figures like this character.
Agreed on Fletcher. But just so we are clear, this is a sports movie disguised as music movie. Simmons plays an abusive coach, not a band director… hence the parallel drawn between creative arts and athletics ~7:00 of the vid.
I've heard that analysis before. and it sounds plausible....unless you apply the same standard to an actual sport. Because one can apply the same critical regard to say, _____(pick a sport) and how this film actually represents music; its representation of performance and standards of excellence, music history, teaching and a whole host of other discrete metrics. Your pick-a-sport also involve these elements. As well as, Disciplines of technique, training, teaching, performance, improvisation, structure, etc....to be clear. We see "sports" movies that are as far afield from their alleged subject matter as this one. .....almost to a film. Unfortunately, movie makers are seldom interested in the craft at the center of their creations.
The abusive leader/holder of power trope is time worn. Its always about the relationship and character dynamics rather than the activity. In this way, WHIPLASH isn't any more about "sports" as it is about "music".
@@lloveculture I’m not sure I agree, but it’s an interesting exercise to plug in a sport… and perhaps even an actual real-life coach. Fletcher is Bobby Knight, former Indiana Univ Men’s Basketball coach… in literally almost every way. It happened in that sport, and the reason I see it as a sports movie is because for decades, Knight’s behavior was publicly known, shown on TV, and deemed relatively acceptable. The moment Fletchers behavior was “made public,” he was fired. He was an abuser in private. Knight was an abuser in public, and was supported, chosen, and even celebrated for it. He hit his players. Threw chairs. And psychological berated and manipulated them. The difference for me is that while the abuser power dynamic is everywhere, we have seen Fletcher’s behavior lauded & replicated as “the best way to lead” in sports. That same acceptance of that abusive leadership style can’t be said for music education, to my knowledge or in my experience.
no, this is thoroughly a movie about abuse in the performing arts. It’s not a sports movie. if it was, they would have made it about a sport.
This is valuable to potential abuse victims.
I've rewatched Whiplash a bunch of times and it was only upon my recent rewatch last week that I noticed that every time he degraded Tanner (the other core/alt drummer) he brought up him being gay; it finally clicked that he probably wasn't just saying that for the sake of just coming up with something emasculating to say, but most likely that Tanner at some point must have confided in Fletcher his sexual orientation. And, similarly to Neiman, he just uses that information to humiliate him and evoke insecurity/self loathing. It's so sinister considering his authority over these literal students, decades younger than himself and so impressionable.
Great video!
i have a strong connection with this movie. it's one of my favourites but it's hard to watch because in many ways it's an uncanny recounting of a traumatic experience i went through in college. while this professor of mine never physically abused me or anyone that i know of, he was the type to get in your face, belittle you, ignore you, make you doubt everything about yourself, withhold his lectures and make his students feel responsible for it.
while this man made me an incoherent anxious wreck at age 18, i still managed to muster up the courage to report him. it was this huge ordeal that spanned the semester but ultimately, we won. i was able to graduate, the school apologized, he apologized and from what i heard from his future students, he got better.
while it was one of the proudest moments of my life, the damage was done - he got in my head. he died a few years after that semester but to this day, he's still with me - it'll be 10 years next January. after this experience, i began to prioritize employability and work ethic over everything. my whole identity and sense of self worth can only come from a job well done and a big pay check. my emotional capacity dwindled into pretty much nothing. i lost a lot of friends and the ones i still have, im not even sure i care about. i ended up starting a well paying career in a new field of study, where i work with talented, friendly and amazing people but i can't help but feel like an oil stain on a tie dye shirt when i'm with them.
after a decade of his toxic lessons ringing in my ears, i've worn myself down to a nub. i feel like i'm hollow, like i'm truly dead inside. i can't love anyone, i can't identify my own desires and i have trouble even pursuing them because that's just not what's important to me anymore. all that matters to me is efficiency and my ability to make money. i would give it all away in an instant if i could just have real emotions again.
if you're a teacher or are in a relationship or are a family member that abuses those that look up to you - please consider changing. you might be hurting them more than you're comfortable with.
I completely disagree with the perspective that Fletcher is trying to create, develop, or cultivate the musicians towards his own vision. This is for two reasons: 1) he never guides them or requires them train doing anything in a way that musicians don’t already do. No special drills, activities, or concepts. 2) when a weak musician is discovered, he doesn’t continue working with them. He’s completely done and dismissive and won’t invest anymore time.
Fletcher is more akin to Glass in Unbreakable. He will weed through the millions to find the one piece of carbon he can pressure into becoming a diamond.
Is Fletcher’s way the right way? Probably not. Did his methods culminate success in discovering greatness? The movie says, “yes”.
He literally drove a kid to suicide.
@@ultraguy14 How do you figure? Yes, the ADULT committed suicide, I get that. But it was several years after the student attended Shaffer. Without knowing the whole story about Casey's life, it's purely conjecture to assume Fletcher "drover a kid to suicide". Again, not defending Fletcher, but a LOT could happen in a person's life to make them commit suicide.
@@sil-80nick So he is a success when a prior student way later does go on to be an amazing performer. But he's not a failure when a prior student kills themselves as a direct result of his technique.