I have a vice of trying to apply reddit brain to Christian apologetics. It really hurts charity, because there is no love in that mind set. I think we need to remember the bell curve meme. There is value wisdom dedicated to God, and there is value in being a simple man, but there is no value in pride
@@marvalice3455 Being particularly clever can be very dangerous, as it can very quickly turn into being proud of your intellect. This is the path that leads many to commit Lucifer's sin, or rather Adam's: "To be like God, knowing good and evil" And indeed they try, and think they do. You rebel against the Supreme, putting yourself as King, redefining some things, recreating others, and murdering your own soul. Therefore you make up your own morality, and right after that making it into the absolute rule of the Universe. When you realize you don't truly know good and evil, you may hopefully humble your intellect as you conclude you're absolutely clueless (as you are); or you could keep your pride and doubt whether good and evil even exists, which is an unnatural state for the mind to be in, even more so than atheism. You shall always feel there's something quite wrong about skinning cats for entertainment. If you had any heart, you'll hold on to some semblance of morality, but founded by faith in man and not God. It shall be twisted, made by minds that cut themselves off from the Logos that is the bulwark of all that is actually rational and sane. God have mercy on you then. This path leads to the gradual loss of your soul and sanity, as is obviously freaking natural. I just wrote a small snippet of how it may look like, but I could write a book on this. Not recommended.
@@MeanBeanComedy the video was a case of widespread brainrot, consisting of a bunch of unfunny jokes for an audience of people who wanna front about knowing theology. in other words, it's reddit.
Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui amandi desiderium ad humani generis propagationem nobis praestitisti et matrimonii sacramentum, ut idem desiderium perficiendo sanctificemur, instauravisti: da nobis in via semper ambulare castitatis, ut consortes fieri mereamur tuae Deitatis. Per Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum Filium tuum, qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus: per omnia saecula saeculorum. Amen.
The river analogy is not just patristic, it's straight out of Scripture: "And he shewed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb." Revelation 22:1
Hey man, I just watched the debate you had with David Erhan as a inquirer into Orthodoxy for roughly three years you raised some good points, you seen like the only real charitable Catholic in debates most of the time, I stepped out of RCIA to run to Orthodoxy because it was just so amazing compared to the lacking novus ordo parish near me in my city here in Tennessee but you started to help me open up and be open minded again and try to push back my personal bias for the pursue of truth in Jesus Christ, thank you my man
The video of the Psuedo intellectual Lutherans mocking St. Patrick really did ruin how people see analogies of the Trinity. The point of an analogy is to be analogous not to be 1 on 1.
Christian your updated content style and new thumbnails are great, keep it up, it immediately gives your channel a massive boost visually and looks a lot more professional
@vacantmemes that's why it's excellent. Lutheran IS the definition of good biblical theology. That's why we have it. The Church catholic, cleansed of additions and errors. As the Augsburg Confession clearly states
15:09 - Interestingly, Matt's experience using analogies in children's catechesis, according to him, did not go so well, which is why he does not use them much.
I wouldn't have known this unlesss you made this video. Thanks be to God a friend showed me this channel. You were charitable and patient, Mr. Wagner. Your level of composure, considering what I now realize is indeed a *very* important matter, is considerable. God bless!
I am not deep into this video yet, but LS video did one thing and taught pretty much every christian how to identify trinitarian heresy. I think it was reformed zoomer who said and I paraphrase: Analogies do a imperfect job at describing the trinity, however they do a perfect job of describing a heresy.
When the jesuits came here to brazil to evangelize the natives they used passionfruit threes leafs as an trinitarian analogy, very similar to the use St Patrick did of the clovers.
Someone needs to show this video to Redeemed Zoomer. He quotes this video mannnnyyyyy times that I’ve seen on his channel and on others in dialogues and such. Like, to the point that if you make an analogy about the Trinity, he will literally immediately reference that video every single time that I’ve ever seen, maybe unless it’s just an inappropriate context, but it’s clearly deeply affected him and he continues to propagate it.
Isn't the whole focus of defining heresies to frame which things are out of orthodoxy? Surely the conflation "is like" and "is exactly like" thing of the Lutheran Satire video is, well... satirical. It still does point out a key issue: stay aware to not project the analogy back onto theology, keep in mind that the analogy falls short.
If interpreted this way, the point of that video could be taken to be in harmony with this one, so long as you assume they weren’t outright saying not to use analogies. The only problem is I’m pretty sure they did? I would need to rewatch it, it’s been a while. Plus once he recites a theologically dense definition they say “Why didn’t you just say that?” which is obviously the punchline, but it does seem to put them at odds as it seems to be saying to just stick to theological formulations rather than analogies because analogies can be misinterpreted (because we forget the dissimilitude)
While there is no analogy that can explain the Trinity as a whole - because explaining the trinity as a whole is impossible, is it possible to say that various analogies can explain aspects of the Trinity? I'll often explain the Father's begetting of the Son with how mass results in gravity. The gravity never exists without the mass, and the mass never without the gravity. There is a clear causal relationship between mass and gravity, yet the gravity is not created by the mass, and never once existed without the gravity. Gravity is a necessary result of mass, mass cannot exist without gravity and vice versa, despite it being clear that mass causes gravity. Does it explain anything else about the Trinity? No, but it can explain a part.
@@MilitantThomist Just finished, I should probably watch videos before commenting. FWIW I wouldn't say you were harsh either. This is a very serious topic and it was handled charitably.
@@MilitantThomist How are they mocking St. Patrick? Sure they use language that might be irreverant and the video has a comedic attitude but I don't see how it is mocking St. Patrick. It portrays him as a good Bishop trying to explain the Trinity in a simple way to the heathen irish.
@@MilitantThomistHans is not mocking Saint Patrick. It's satire meant to point out how poorly catechized the average person his and how little they know of the nature of the Trinity. It is against a shallow faith that never gets past tutorial mode
This is a good pushback against those who go overboard in describing how our analogies are dissimilar to God in fundamental ways. But I think the best way to make the Trinity real to kids is to use the words of Christ. To get kids to understand that it is only through Christ that we know God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That Jesus is the son who is the word of the father. And that he and the Father are one. When you have established that Jesus is the source of this knowledge about God ... the you can start talking about how they are one. And here it is important that we define what we mean when we say that God is like anything. Kids can understand notions of degree, of similarity and dissimilarity. But once that is established, then yeah, use the clover. Use the three states of water.
🔥 Had to be said. Lutheran Satire is the same one who attacks our based Holy Father and present him as a hippy. That channel can't stop making dangerous coal
I find it interesting that Luther could use an analogy for justification being like " a iron rod united with fire ,which then becomes a glowing rod" which is an analogy that seems to totally contradict his own theology of extra nos, imputation only justification. This video came at a perfect time though. I was invited to speak to a group of non denominational Christians in a few weeks. The topic is the holy Trinity. These are young adults. Had I not watched this video, i probably would have mocked all analogies of the Trinity instead of showing the similarities vs dissimilarites of the analogies.
Hi! I think the iron rod bit was actually imagery the Reformers and some Church Fathers used to talk about the Eucharist, I could be wrong though, cheers!
the lutheransatire video was the most reddit thing possible. glad someone's finally saying something about it
Oof! He got branded as "Reddit."
The stamp of death... 😳😱💀☠️
I have a vice of trying to apply reddit brain to Christian apologetics. It really hurts charity, because there is no love in that mind set.
I think we need to remember the bell curve meme. There is value wisdom dedicated to God, and there is value in being a simple man, but there is no value in pride
@@marvalice3455 Being particularly clever can be very dangerous, as it can very quickly turn into being proud of your intellect. This is the path that leads many to commit Lucifer's sin, or rather Adam's: "To be like God, knowing good and evil"
And indeed they try, and think they do. You rebel against the Supreme, putting yourself as King, redefining some things, recreating others, and murdering your own soul. Therefore you make up your own morality, and right after that making it into the absolute rule of the Universe. When you realize you don't truly know good and evil, you may hopefully humble your intellect as you conclude you're absolutely clueless (as you are); or you could keep your pride and doubt whether good and evil even exists, which is an unnatural state for the mind to be in, even more so than atheism. You shall always feel there's something quite wrong about skinning cats for entertainment. If you had any heart, you'll hold on to some semblance of morality, but founded by faith in man and not God. It shall be twisted, made by minds that cut themselves off from the Logos that is the bulwark of all that is actually rational and sane. God have mercy on you then.
This path leads to the gradual loss of your soul and sanity, as is obviously freaking natural. I just wrote a small snippet of how it may look like, but I could write a book on this.
Not recommended.
@@MeanBeanComedy the video was a case of widespread brainrot, consisting of a bunch of unfunny jokes for an audience of people who wanna front about knowing theology.
in other words, it's reddit.
Please pray for me to overcome lust. 🙏
I'll pray for you. Please pray for me.
Pray for me too.
Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui amandi desiderium ad humani generis propagationem nobis praestitisti et matrimonii sacramentum, ut idem desiderium perficiendo sanctificemur, instauravisti: da nobis in via semper ambulare castitatis, ut consortes fieri mereamur tuae Deitatis. Per Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum Filium tuum, qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus: per omnia saecula saeculorum. Amen.
@@Jack-uo7gz Thank you. Praying for you. 🙏
@@Dark_Moon_Grass Praying for you. 🙏
The river analogy is not just patristic, it's straight out of Scripture:
"And he shewed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb." Revelation 22:1
Hey man, I just watched the debate you had with David Erhan as a inquirer into Orthodoxy for roughly three years you raised some good points, you seen like the only real charitable Catholic in debates most of the time, I stepped out of RCIA to run to Orthodoxy because it was just so amazing compared to the lacking novus ordo parish near me in my city here in Tennessee but you started to help me open up and be open minded again and try to push back my personal bias for the pursue of truth in Jesus Christ, thank you my man
I've met plenty of children who understand how analogies work, but Ive yet to meet a child who understands the distinction between essence and person
The video of the Psuedo intellectual Lutherans mocking St. Patrick really did ruin how people see analogies of the Trinity. The point of an analogy is to be analogous not to be 1 on 1.
Glad to see you here
Lutherans ruin everything.
@@apologiaromana4123 God bless you!
@@hap1678and you!!
He did say that the intention was to show the errors of each analogy, not to label St Patrick as a heretic, to be fair.
Christian your updated content style and new thumbnails are great, keep it up, it immediately gives your channel a massive boost visually and looks a lot more professional
Thank you bro, when I was growing closer to Christ I had this anti-analogy mindset but this video really opened my mind
I was planning to explain the Trinity, so I watched that video, then I decided not to make any video cuz now I dont know how to explain the trinity.
Hey man, good to see another Indian Catholic here.
@@holyromanemperor420 Yes! Awesome
Where are you from?
@@ThatIndianCatholic
Kerala, you?
@@holyromanemperor420 Mumbai
But what about the implied Trinitarian heresies of those analogies? I think that should be taken seriously.
Just be sure to point out the parts where the analogy stops working if or when you ever use them
The whole point of Lutheran Satire is teaching disguised as humor. It is a good channel
@vacantmemes that's why it's excellent. Lutheran IS the definition of good biblical theology. That's why we have it. The Church catholic, cleansed of additions and errors. As the Augsburg Confession clearly states
@@Dilley_G45😂
@@Seanain_O_hEarchai FYI I love Humor but this is theology and I was serious
15:09 - Interestingly, Matt's experience using analogies in children's catechesis, according to him, did not go so well, which is why he does not use them much.
I wouldn't have known this unlesss you made this video. Thanks be to God a friend showed me this channel. You were charitable and patient, Mr. Wagner. Your level of composure, considering what I now realize is indeed a *very* important matter, is considerable.
God bless!
I am not deep into this video yet, but LS video did one thing and taught pretty much every christian how to identify trinitarian heresy. I think it was reformed zoomer who said and I paraphrase: Analogies do a imperfect job at describing the trinity, however they do a perfect job of describing a heresy.
God bless you. 🙏
It's a funny video, but it ignores the fact that we can just qualify the analogies we make
It’s not funny.
@@MilitantThomistYou didn't laugh once? Freaking Germans... 🙄🙄🙄
@@MilitantThomistit’s funny
@@MilitantThomistC’mon Patrick
@@MilitantThomist🙄
When the jesuits came here to brazil to evangelize the natives they used passionfruit threes leafs as an trinitarian analogy, very similar to the use St Patrick did of the clovers.
Someone needs to show this video to Redeemed Zoomer. He quotes this video mannnnyyyyy times that I’ve seen on his channel and on others in dialogues and such. Like, to the point that if you make an analogy about the Trinity, he will literally immediately reference that video every single time that I’ve ever seen, maybe unless it’s just an inappropriate context, but it’s clearly deeply affected him and he continues to propagate it.
That video annoys me for some reason. I can't stand reading comments that say, "That's Modalism Patrick."
“That’s modalism Patrick!”
because its Catholic Inc/pop apologetics humor
Isn't the whole focus of defining heresies to frame which things are out of orthodoxy? Surely the conflation "is like" and "is exactly like" thing of the Lutheran Satire video is, well... satirical.
It still does point out a key issue: stay aware to not project the analogy back onto theology, keep in mind that the analogy falls short.
If interpreted this way, the point of that video could be taken to be in harmony with this one, so long as you assume they weren’t outright saying not to use analogies. The only problem is I’m pretty sure they did? I would need to rewatch it, it’s been a while. Plus once he recites a theologically dense definition they say “Why didn’t you just say that?” which is obviously the punchline, but it does seem to put them at odds as it seems to be saying to just stick to theological formulations rather than analogies because analogies can be misinterpreted (because we forget the dissimilitude)
While there is no analogy that can explain the Trinity as a whole - because explaining the trinity as a whole is impossible, is it possible to say that various analogies can explain aspects of the Trinity?
I'll often explain the Father's begetting of the Son with how mass results in gravity. The gravity never exists without the mass, and the mass never without the gravity. There is a clear causal relationship between mass and gravity, yet the gravity is not created by the mass, and never once existed without the gravity. Gravity is a necessary result of mass, mass cannot exist without gravity and vice versa, despite it being clear that mass causes gravity.
Does it explain anything else about the Trinity? No, but it can explain a part.
You should watch the video :)
I suppose I should 😂
@@MilitantThomist Just finished, I should probably watch videos before commenting. FWIW I wouldn't say you were harsh either. This is a very serious topic and it was handled charitably.
Dudes taking a satire piece waaaaaaaaay too seriously. Loosen up a little
Amen. I remember when it first came out, analogies treated as the analogies they are are analogies!
Can I still use the Athanasian Creed when explaining the trinity tho?
Vatican II Catholics and all Prots. do not go anywhere NEAR the Athanasian Creed!
Absolutely.
The only thing Hans gets wrong there is that while all analogies are wrong, some are useful in some respect.
interesting, would you be able to explain the theology of confirmation through analogy to Gods little ones
C'mon, Patrick, don't be a Patrick.
You do realize they're mocking St. Patrick, right?
@@MilitantThomist How are they mocking St. Patrick? Sure they use language that might be irreverant and the video has a comedic attitude but I don't see how it is mocking St. Patrick. It portrays him as a good Bishop trying to explain the Trinity in a simple way to the heathen irish.
@@MilitantThomistBut that's not actually St. Patrick.
@@SancteCuthberteOraProNobis Sure sure.
@@MilitantThomistHans is not mocking Saint Patrick. It's satire meant to point out how poorly catechized the average person his and how little they know of the nature of the Trinity. It is against a shallow faith that never gets past tutorial mode
i love trinitarian analogies, i love thinking about them at work. i love thinking about the proper negations for them. i HATE Catholic Inc!
This is a good pushback against those who go overboard in describing how our analogies are dissimilar to God in fundamental ways. But I think the best way to make the Trinity real to kids is to use the words of Christ. To get kids to understand that it is only through Christ that we know God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That Jesus is the son who is the word of the father. And that he and the Father are one. When you have established that Jesus is the source of this knowledge about God ... the you can start talking about how they are one. And here it is important that we define what we mean when we say that God is like anything. Kids can understand notions of degree, of similarity and dissimilarity. But once that is established, then yeah, use the clover. Use the three states of water.
🔥 Had to be said. Lutheran Satire is the same one who attacks our based Holy Father and present him as a hippy. That channel can't stop making dangerous coal
It's all gems, and you know it.
@@pavelthefabulous5675 tuberculosis
Matt Fradd? What does he have to do with a Lutheran satire site?
He wrote an article saying that analogies are bad
@@tiagoviana5161thanks for the explanation
But that’s real theology, Patrick. Yeah Patrick, real theology takes effort, thought, and precision.
I find it interesting that Luther could use an analogy for justification being like " a iron rod united with fire ,which then becomes a glowing rod" which is an analogy that seems to totally contradict his own theology of extra nos, imputation only justification. This video came at a perfect time though. I was invited to speak to a group of non denominational Christians in a few weeks. The topic is the holy Trinity. These are young adults. Had I not watched this video, i probably would have mocked all analogies of the Trinity instead of showing the similarities vs dissimilarites of the analogies.
Hi! I think the iron rod bit was actually imagery the Reformers and some Church Fathers used to talk about the Eucharist, I could be wrong though, cheers!
@yeetoburrito9972 I believe luther used it in both justification a d the eucharist
I'll laugh at it, but good points raised.👍🏻
I think it would be a good example to your followers if you wore a suit, for a number of reasons.
@torchanddog it's only a larp if you're acting my dude.
@torchanddogNo, just a suit. It's not a larp. It's dressing nice. Don't you wear one every week to Church?
@torchanddog”one of the least important things ever.” I know it’s hyperbole but dang dude. That’s some absurd levels of over emphasizing.
I’ll hear you out
@@MilitantThomist I wrote a long reply. Please let me know if RUclips deleted it.
getting offended is kinda cringe patrick