I really appreciate your understanding of where beginners are at; I wish more professionals would have this same level of understanding. Right now, I'm pursuing front-end development because, from my understanding, it's the easiest way to get your foot in the door of the coding industry. When I was learning and using HTML and CSS, I felt so confident, that, for the most part, I knew what I was doing, then along comes JavaScript. Learning JavaScript itself isn't the worst thing in the world; it's all these extra things that come along as a consequence of learning JavaScript that throws away that previous confidence I had. I'm not going to give up though; I've come too far. Eventually, I would like to get into back-end work, but hopefully in due time. I like your rant videos; keep them coming.
I'm not sure what "beginner" means in this context. Did you had prior programming experience or is web-dev your entry to programming in general? What I'm a bit confused about (in the video) is, that every layer (front-end, back-end, etc) is mentioned. You can implement a lot of ideas, without any backend or NPM - just a plain HTML file. For storage, just use localStorage, you want to use Vue, just use the instance version of it (no transpiling/NPM/WebPack needed) and most of the component frameworks work with just a simple css file import. For my personal projects or prototypes I still go this way, because it removes a lot of overhead. I started my career (10 years ago) with just front-end knowledge and it worked well, because I was good at a specific filed in development (so even experienced devs could learn from me, because they were back-end heavy) and the rest was covered by other developers. And the benefit is, you can learn from your colleagues (on the job) to maybe become a full-stack developer.
THIS! When you pass away the HTML/CSS "safe-space" and you start with JavaScript... the honeymoon ends; but you need to keep punching the bag, you will develop and learn skills that you never thought you had.
JS is a nightmare, TypeScript was created so the JS mess can be little bit more manageable. JS was initially created by one guy in a week or so, because he wanted to display something dynamically in a web page. It was neither planned nor designed to become the de-facto standard for all web clients. If JS was remotely close to a good language, then there wouldn't be so many attempts to fix it (talking about Flash, Silverlight, WebAssembly, Blazor-C#, Flutter-Dart, TypeScript itself etc.). Hopefully Blazor and Flutter will be the future of the Web.
wow, so happy to see you uploading vids after all this time. I have learned a lot from you and so glad to see you in 2021 once again; keep it up. There are a lot of things you can do so, please keep going and upload vids nonstop man, all the best in advance #love_you
Man I’m glad to know that my confusion about JS is actually justifiable and shared even among experienced people. The history of JS is also very informative thanks 🙏
I get the frustration. Starting as a backend developer, I myself was a JS hater for a long time. But having used JavaScript in real projects for some years now (as there's really no good alternative), I changed my mind: User interfaces are inherently hard, specially at scale. And I am very grateful of JS and all the libraries, frameworks and services that really do help us developers get things done efficiently. We may not have solved the UI problem completely yet (and probably never will) but we sure have come a long way.
We can't throw things out because people like to have choices. You can't decide what people are going to use as a developer. Every language and framework has its pros and cons.
mike your C# vids have helped me a lot. im getting into coding brand new to it and starting with C#. please do a video like this for C#. your feelings on it for newbies.
I love the rant videos too even though plenty of the info is way over my head. You should do what Bucky did a few weeks back and have a big live Q and A so we can pick your brain for a few hours.
I learned python n html from u and I am an absolutely beginner w no code bg but I understood those two perfectly fine. I have been learning js for more then a dozen hours and i find it kind of messy… like everything just throw together in one line😅python is much more neat to the core n elegant… it is able to keep things in the simplest logic. I might be totally wrong but. After hearing u talked abt what js was meant to do in the beginning, I kind of understand why it is so piled up. Yes, i wish there is an more integrated language system for it. Last but not least, thank you so much for developing so much tutorials! If it was not bc of ur great tutorials, i wouldn’t have kept learning! You r a great teacher! N plz come back n teach us more abt JavaScript. 😅If anyone could nail it, it would be you! Would be great if u can make following up tutorials after beginner ones!
Hi Mike just an advice don't repeat i don't know a lot in your videos and try not to put your hand on your head, you're authentic but try to get rid of those 2 things, good luck
😂I'm a beginner, it's been 4 months now and I'm leaning how to add logging using winston, handling errors and logging the exact error message... I don't know Mike, although I'm enjoying it
It seems the JavaScript is becoming ubiquitous even beyond the browser, which is terrifying given its such an awful language. Like you I wonder where this will all end up.
Finally!!!! Someone understands my dilemma. I wish there was a way to turn back time so that I could bonk the guy who came up with Node js and the other stuff.
I've been building smallish websites for businesses, bloggers, personal, portfolios etc for over 20 years. I've never ever used or written a single line of javascript. I've only now in the last month or so started to learn it, mainly to see what all the fuss is about and for my own satisfaction.
I really like JavaScript, but this is partially why I refocused my efforts from web development to learning SQL, Python, and database development (that, and I have a potential job opportunity as a SQL dev). I’ll always enjoy doing web design in my free time, but I’m really enjoying learning database development, and it just seems like less of a headache to learn so far. I just realized that I’d rather continue learning and doing web development stuff in my free time rather than doing it as a career. That being said, I still recommend learning how to code by starting with web development.
Nothing wrong with any codebase. Its all about how its used. There’s no real need for frameworks and they all cause poor performance and waste energy. Best thing to do is only serve code that is going to be used. In most cases this means designing webpages like the Japanese designed video games in the late 90s.
"Is JavaScript BAD for Beginners?" Yes, it is. It introduces the user to several bad habits that are very hard to remove later. In this respect, it is as bad as visual basic. It should be avoided as a teaching language. Python, Java and many other languages are much cleaner, much more controllable and are a much better fit for educational purposes. Said that, of course, we also have to say that Javascript is the most diffused language in the world nowadays and we cannot avoid it. If you want to survive as a professional programmer you have to know it and hence it is always a good idea to study it. We can find many justifications for the existence of Javascript and for its horrible syntax but, honestly, we'd better ask why it is still the only language that the browsers can understand. Mozilla Firefox still has a working implementation of XPCOM that allows interfacing its rendering engine with any possible language. It even had for many years a working implementation of Python as a scripting language thanks to PyXPCOM. Google made something very similar with Dartium, the Dart-capable version of Chromium (the Open Source version of Google Chrome). So WHY we cannot choose our implementation language when working inside a browser? WHY must we use the absolute worst language available?
Yep, Dart is so so so much better, I later found out that most of your coding is in React or what not because using JS for everything thing is not practical. I think Dart is good step i'm learning react mostly decided to skip learning the non framework JS. I'll just google if I need to know something.
What bad habits are you talking about if I may ask? I’m learning WebDev and I would like to know which habits I should think of in my learning process.
You can't choose the implementation language because that would mean that all browsers would need every runtime environment prepackaged. This is a silly opinion.
I agree on everything you said here. I've been learning programming (JavaScript/TypeScript) for 6 months now and mannn the more I learn it, the more I realise how beginner unfriendly it is... I probably wouldn't recommend it to a friend as their first language to learn (probably better to start off with Python to learn those base programming concepts). But with all of that said - I still really love JS and do not regret that I started with it and I'm pretty sure it will remain my main language :D ^^ Can we expect to see TypeScript tutorial series? And how to work with TypeScript in React?
Long long time ago, front end and javascript is a peaceful place. Then jquery was born, we can do tons of cool tricks. And front end still remained peaceful whereas other language dev kept fighting each other for the best programming language crown. The big day came, god sent a new baby named as node to programming planet. Since that day, the world would never be the same. Javascript dev who hid themselves for a long time suddenly stepped out of their shade. At that moment, they can do backend like other language did. And then 3 largest clans Angular, React, Vue were formed, there is an endless war in front-end.
I agree with a lot of what you say, even the part about being a React developer and enjoying the torture of using all these tools (I like setting up webpack from scratch). But yes I started learning JavaScript, Node, and React early last year and even though I am coding and working on projects every day for most of the day I still feel like there is a lot more to learn. And with unlimited ways to implement the same functionality, is can be difficult to stay consistent. I often find myself looking at old work and wanting rearrange everything utilizing techniques that I've learned since the last time I've looked at that project. I find it funny how much time I spent struggling with trying to understand the fundamentals, and now every so often I will read some documentation or watch a video on some of the fundamental basics of JavaScript and think about how hard it was for me to understand the first time but now the concepts are so clear.
Love the rant videos, someone has to say all this out loud on a public platform. Keep making such videos, your subs will definitely go up, because people need to know the facts.
I totally feel this way. Been working in my spare time trying to learn JavaScript and I have hit a wall. HTML and CSS were no problem and even learning the basics of JavaScript was fine. But then when I sit down and try to create something, I find that there are all these intricacies in just getting an app to run with JS and I feel defeated. Trying to push through. Mike’s vids have been very helpful. It’s nice to know that I’m not stupid and that JS implementation is very hard.
Yeah because thats the problem for most of the ppl, they watch tutorials and it seems so easy ...its like yeah i understand everything but when they want to actually build somehting all of a sudden everyhitng seems impossible! The way to do it is to try to build something after you watch a bit and no you will not understand anything and ...solve problems and then get things but it takes alot of fuken time....obviously. Im leaning PHP now for the exact reasons that the guy talked about...and after PHP i will learn java script but with php its the same , you watch you kinda think you got it and then if somebody tells you to do the most basic shyte there is, you just cannnt even think about how to do it. IF you cannot imagine the steps then you cannot do shit , and then you research , you do it with mostly copying code and then try to understand it , break the code down in pieces get one thing out of 10 then do another project , where now the code seems familiar , still you dont get it but you learn another thing on top of the 1 think that you know, copy the code make a sign up or a register and then you investigate what you just did and again and again and after 2-3 months some things start to make sense and you kinda create a process in your head , you learn to think what the fucken cormputer whats you to and hopefully after 1 year you can actually create things by yourself ! Its not an overnight process and because the concepts are weird its hard to gasp it at first!
Man, thanks for making this video. Yeah we need to come up with a different name for 'programming' in Javascript. It's not about writing code in the language, it's about making a handful of different libraries, frameworks, browsers, services, ecosystems, butterflies, stray cats...etc all work together. New programmers should definitely have an understanding of how a language like C# works in comparison IMO. Hang on to your butts, npm install.... here we go!
I HATE javascript. I can rant for ...... the whole object creation is like some = {}, then some['a'] = 1, and we got { 'a': 1}.....what kind of syntax is this?????? Isn't [] for array???? Even after 10 years, I refuse to remember this shit. Every time I write this, I feel like a complete idiot. And The whole, shift and unshift, who even come up with this name?????? You would think unshift is to remove an item, but in fact shift is to remove an item. Can't they just name it "removeFirst", "addFirst". Everyone can remember. And pop, its fine. Just, when you have shift, pop just like what the hell now. Do you unPop, nope, you Push.....sighhhh.... The whole function arrow, my lord. = () => this whole syntax is stupid. I don't even want to get into it. And async has to be in front of the parenthesis........roll my eyes..... The whole new private class with #, like really
Man I'm in this freaking hell right now. As soon as I want to make something even minimal with Javascript I get a ton of videos and papers and Stackovberflow to read. And there's another thing you forgot to mention: HOW TO F&%ING DEAL WITH OLDER CODE????? I am testing a Chrome extension made in JQUERY and EVERYBODY told me not to take JQUERY seriously because we now use ECMAScript. But here I am trying to understand how you "used to work" in order to try to make a simple feature. :-/
There is a way for Beginners to learn JavaScript without all the confusing stuff like AJAX, JSON, jQuery, Node, React, Angular, Vue, or Express. Start from basics with JavaScript (Web/Plain/Vanilla), nothing more, nothing less. Once they have mastered the basics, they can then decide which pathway to pursue (e.g. Node, React, Angular, Vue).
Maybe we could try and build a framework similar to js that makes websites more reactive. But more organized, more begginer friendly. Js will never change, so we can either learn it or try a new angle.
Web development is just SO WEIRD. Usually stuff in programming makes alot of sense but in webdev its like... A weird error happens and it only does because some Mechanic of the programming language is inherently weird... Especially with php but also a little bit JS. Luckyly php slowly gets pushed out by node js and stuff but we Still have Javascript 😅 Js still feels so wonky and weird... Honestly I prefer python but it sadly doesn't work in the browser? It might as replacement of php tho 🤔 Still have to test this. Honestly I don't miss my days of web development!
I had no concept of what the "bestist" language in teh whole wide worldy was to learn. I picked up a book from my tutors bookcase, which just happened to be a C Programming Book but could have been Javascript, Python etc etc.. and I read it from start to back until I could comfortably write a Blackjack game. Then after that I asked the question, well what can I do now? win32? OpenGL? Web Development? Mobile Apps? the worlds your oyster. Go code and stop over thinking.... *rant over*
At least it's not as bad/hodgepodge as PHP. ;) Like PHP I think people learn it because it's everywhere. Unlike PHP you have the Not Invented Here my CoolNewLib developers with Root on MacBooks trying to make their mark. There was some "so bad it's good" or "bad enough to be used everywhere" quote about either JS or PHP and I can't remember or find it now. The truth is, it's unrealistic for most people to be a solid web developer in a week or even 90 days. You listed a fraction of the tech stack you need to learn. Add onto that UX and UI principals, software engineering principals, project management, business management skills, client skills, etc. There is a lot to learn and none of it needs you to know how to do recursion or figure out the O notation if you stick with clean code and solid libraries.
Sounds like a beginner would be better off learning INTERCAL instead... What I draw from listening to this, is that browser portability with JavaScript is not at all straightforward.
Yes. That's what javascript was for. And it was even kind of badly designed for that. Now to shoehorn that nonsense into backend code or even non web code is just madness. Use literally anything else. Python has no type safety but at least it makes sense and is well designed. C# is well designed, well documented and as a managed language it's decent. C++ for anything that requires performance. C for anything embedded that doesn't have a lot of memory. Java if your boss is a sadist. Literally any other language is fine. Why would someone have that absolutely ridiculous idea of using a frontend language, designed (and badly at that) to manipulate websites, and use it for general purpose. Ridiculous. The sane choice would've been to use lua from the very beginning and have javascript not be a thing at all. Every language requires some time to learn. The problem is design and consistency within a language. If you have 5 == "5" come out as true, then something is wrong with your language design. Or 2 + "2" results in "22" and 2 - "2" results in 0. These small inconsistencies stack up and at the end of it all you have a giant mess where everything is complicated to do. If you try 5 == "5" in c++ you get a compiler error. If you try 5 == "5" in python you get false. If you try 5 + "5" in python you get an exception. Those languages make sense.
I totally agree with you, Dane. Also, in my opinion, JavaScript is the easiest programming language to kick start (I can teach a 6 year old kid to write "hello, world!" in less than 5 minutes using JavaScript), and it is also the hardest programming environment/platform/tools/frameworks to master. But, we have to take it. Because, nowadays, JavaScript and JSON are everywhere, from front end to backend, to database, and even desktop applications.
Hello Mike, im from Argentina. Thanks for all you content (sorry my bad grammar). Do you have a video explaining how to make python proyect executables (.exe, .bat) with installer? im new to this. Thanks again!
Plain JS? Of course is completely bad. Not only in terms of learning beginners, but also making scalable apps as well. Heck, even I as an experienced developer in the industry consider plain JS as horrible language to make huge apps, because of all of the crazy things you can do there However... TS changes everything. Especially when you combine it with some IoC like Inversify (my favorite) in the backend and use Angular on the frontend which gives you almost everything out-of-the-box without even needing to configure anything. And... TS does this so well, that it is the my language of choice today almost for anything. Because it takes down the complete overload and headache of doing simple things hardly like Java does. Also... you can do static typing without needing to explicitly type every single goddamn thing which makes code very easy to read (since you can check the type by mousover on vaariable in VSCode or WebStorm f.e). So.. yeah. Plain JS is horrible, but TS makes it a best suited language for me
Bootcamps are the biggest scams these days, offering you 3 months Full-Stack Web & App Developer course and in entire course you get 2 weeks of JS and then you jump to React for client-side & , Node.js for server-side. IMHO I feel alone one need atleast a year to learn JS.
I agree with your take on the situation. JavaScript is a different animal than other languages. It always feels like you are aiming at a moving target but there is a good portion of the language that is supported by almost all browsers that cover almost all of what most people need to do in the language. That is a lot of qualifiers which makes for a lot of gray areas. I do not think JS is a bad language to start out with though since there are SO MANY resources available. However, I believe we do not do a great job setting up expectations of the language and how it is different from other languages. Most resources make it seem like it is easy, which it can be if you are aware of the pitfalls. We should be honest when we are helping students 'color between the lines' and not be alarmed when they 'hit the edges' causing the whole thing to fall apart.
Before you even begin. Yes, it is crap! Amazingly crap. Of all the languages I've worked with, I hate Javascript the most. I actually feel like I need to shower everytime I touched it. It's really time that the powers that be start from scratch and replace it with something decent. 12:35. My thoughts exactly. Javascript is like a 100 story building build on the foundation intended for a family home. It's crap, it's 20 years out of date, it is redundant. Building websites is like buiding aircraft carriers propelled by sails.
Languages have Arguments...there're Arguments in itself(so called the softwares), that's why we humans never unification in Languages. I'm learning js right now into 6 months+ , only spend 2hrs a day at work to study coding from the university of google & youtube. All i know now was putting objects together, and almost declarations of properties etc! Not knowing to put the logical objects & values syntax into the function scope yet. So difficult. But i keep pushing to see how far i could go on.
As a beginner Javascript doesn't make any sense. it's way to much ( ) $ " # $ ¤ ! ^ * ' ` ½ § < > and so on. why can't they just use words like HTML and CSS instead. write a full word gives a better meaning what we actually doing instead of using symbols and var, echo, document etc etc that points to no understanding at all
No. Javascript is very easy Because If you have one language you can code in which languages as Java , Lua , C , C++ , C# , Python , Javascript have the same Appearancecss for Them Except Html and CSS have another appearance. This is my note of 5 years of coding
Bottom line, CS nerds are forcing JavaScript to be something it wasn't meant to be, but I see the concept behind "one language, different tech stacks." However, it didn't really work out that way🤣🤣🤣
I find javascript is easier to code in than php. I hate php. Compared to php frameworks, coding in Express and node.js is much easier. Unlike php, you can understand what you are doing as you go along, and the set up is simple. Just getting started in CodeIgniter, one of the lightweight frameworks of php, is harder. Node.js is just an extension of normal JS, so that's what's good about JS. Once you learn it, you can do both the front end and back end. It is the Apple of programming languages. You can get a lot done with it. You can be more productive, and can start creating things earlier even when you are just starting out in the language. PHP is more for geeks. Hard to get going in it. Looking at PHP code gives me a headache. Just my humble opinion.
Programming languages click at different intervals, that's just the harsh truth, Javascript is the hardest because of the hype around it, and people get confused about all these things, like when I started I always thought webpack was another language that I had to learn, but here is the road map: Fundamentals, Practice for several months, Then choose your favourite(frontend or backend), Then pick your potion, and voila, you're a developer now.
what do you think about Haxe as an alternative to javascript? (another language for the web?) or instead of dealing with js bundlers and typescript, just work in Haxe to output JS? then you'll have the tools to write for any other environment. (compiles/integrates to other languages)
i have a similar relationship with CSS.... it is very inconsistent and it feels like i am constantly fighting it and juggling with how different browsers ( AND individual versions of those browsers ) will display the same CSS code. so what happens is a messy CSS file with a bunch of webkit and IE hacks in it. wow i do not miss those days. and those days were when javascript was only being used for simple buttons like you said. but then the Jquery libraries came together with the horrible scroll lag and i was like; i am out of here...... i had to stop and find something else to do.
Love these rants Mike! So thank you. I've been 'learning' JS for years! Just thought I had pie for brains, as I just have never been able to grasp it in any logical fashion! But seeing this definitely makes me feel better :)
You are blaming Javascript for the mushroom explosion of frameworks and the not invented here syndrome common among web developers. Stick with native Javascript if you are teaching. The frameworks are largely dumpster fires.
There are a few bad programming languages but Javascript would be way down the list if you want to classify it as bad for beginners. The way it is often taught is very, very bad. By the way, the Javascript of the 1990s is not the same Javascript we have today. Javascript can now be used for client-side and server-side development.
And you've actually ranted only about the ecosystem when in fact the language itself is so bad because it's riddled with weird inconsistencies. I mean you've mentioned typescript ... Let me ask you this: have you ever seen a language with such a poor design that there is a need for another language on top of it just to make it somewhat usable? This language man... I'd advise everyone to not pick Javascript if you want to learn how to code. Pick literally any other language which is more restrictive and well defined, learn about the why's and once you've got a grasp on the core concepts you can dip your toe into the JS ecosystem. And the best advice I can give you is to not get discouraged if you can't understand another person's code - it's their fault for not making it expressive enough probably because they themselves didn't know how to do it cleaner.
As someone who's gotten quickly comfortable learning Python as one of my first languages and now struggling to complete a year-long javascript-based webdev project, I feel validated by Mike (who taught me React) feeling the same way I do. It just seems so messy and disconnected. As powerful as it is, let's just say that a lot of my time is spent fixing dumb bugs, trying to understand what the hell my code is doing, and like 1% conceptual programming/coding. It just seems so damn inefficient. I'll stick to Python after this (and probably just avoid webdev lol).
Html css and python is fine. Just give the site good designs with html and css. Then make it work with python. And now pytho is coming to the browser soo. The only thing that made javascript bigger python is now being taken by python, so python is easier and does front and back end soo. Your alright .
absolutely that's why am learning strongly typed language like C# first => {self taught full stack developer } and learning angular to what it provides all in one framework and I don't mind the learning curve
I'm kinda beginner too, but as a beginner who learned and used a bunch of different programming languages, believe me, this guy is telling the truth. Oh, and this is not a simple ranting, to be honest. This vid helps to understand JS and the difference btw JS and other languages. Thumbs up definitely.
*I love this man he cares so much for beginners like me*
Yeah. He’s dope af.
Mike's ranting series is actually a students encouragement session
That got me thinking like "thought it was just me who feel that way"
Programming therapy haha
Exacting my thought. Watched the video for that kind of value even though I am only learning Python.
AGREED COMPLETELY…. Actually made me go back to my computer tbh
No it’s not js is wack and will be replaced
I really appreciate your understanding of where beginners are at; I wish more professionals would have this same level of understanding. Right now, I'm pursuing front-end development because, from my understanding, it's the easiest way to get your foot in the door of the coding industry. When I was learning and using HTML and CSS, I felt so confident, that, for the most part, I knew what I was doing, then along comes JavaScript. Learning JavaScript itself isn't the worst thing in the world; it's all these extra things that come along as a consequence of learning JavaScript that throws away that previous confidence I had. I'm not going to give up though; I've come too far. Eventually, I would like to get into back-end work, but hopefully in due time.
I like your rant videos; keep them coming.
Damn... my thoughts exactly. Started the same way being confident with HTML and CSS and then having everything go to hell at JS :D
I'm not sure what "beginner" means in this context. Did you had prior programming experience or is web-dev your entry to programming in general? What I'm a bit confused about (in the video) is, that every layer (front-end, back-end, etc) is mentioned. You can implement a lot of ideas, without any backend or NPM - just a plain HTML file. For storage, just use localStorage, you want to use Vue, just use the instance version of it (no transpiling/NPM/WebPack needed) and most of the component frameworks work with just a simple css file import.
For my personal projects or prototypes I still go this way, because it removes a lot of overhead. I started my career (10 years ago) with just front-end knowledge and it worked well, because I was good at a specific filed in development (so even experienced devs could learn from me, because they were back-end heavy) and the rest was covered by other developers. And the benefit is, you can learn from your colleagues (on the job) to maybe become a full-stack developer.
THIS!
When you pass away the HTML/CSS "safe-space" and you start with JavaScript... the honeymoon ends; but you need to keep punching the bag, you will develop and learn skills that you never thought you had.
Pretty much just posted this same sentiment then scrolled down and saw your post. It’s nice to know we aren’t alone feeling this way.
_The Return of the King_
Avenger of programming
oh, good so IT IS actually an inconsistent mess... i thought it was just me lmaoooo this made me feel much better
JS is a nightmare, TypeScript was created so the JS mess can be little bit more manageable. JS was initially created by one guy in a week or so, because he wanted to display something dynamically in a web page. It was neither planned nor designed to become the de-facto standard for all web clients. If JS was remotely close to a good language, then there wouldn't be so many attempts to fix it (talking about Flash, Silverlight, WebAssembly, Blazor-C#, Flutter-Dart, TypeScript itself etc.). Hopefully Blazor and Flutter will be the future of the Web.
Developers:
Framework maker: they need one more, they need one more !!!!!!
💀💀💀 (also, I approve your pfp)
@@laur-unstagenameactuallyca1587 As you should 😌
wow, so happy to see you uploading vids after all this time. I have learned a lot from you and so glad to see you in 2021 once again; keep it up. There are a lot of things you can do so, please keep going and upload vids nonstop man, all the best in advance #love_you
Man I’m glad to know that my confusion about JS is actually justifiable and shared even among experienced people. The history of JS is also very informative thanks 🙏
I get the frustration. Starting as a backend developer, I myself was a JS hater for a long time. But having used JavaScript in real projects for some years now (as there's really no good alternative), I changed my mind: User interfaces are inherently hard, specially at scale. And I am very grateful of JS and all the libraries, frameworks and services that really do help us developers get things done efficiently. We may not have solved the UI problem completely yet (and probably never will) but we sure have come a long way.
@Kingdom Cre8tive probably 'cause devs without a job don't go telling much about it. Actually I've been out of job for quite some time now :/
Mike Dane: Knows literally every language ever written: "I don't know guys, I don't know." Yes Mike, you know.
Maybe except Rust and some few others. They just came out recently
I take your Rust and I raise you an INTERCAL
This whole industry is being unnecessarily over complicated. A few standardized languages and frameworks should be kept and throw the rest out.
in a perfect world yes, this is underrated comment.
We can't throw things out because people like to have choices. You can't decide what people are going to use as a developer. Every language and framework has its pros and cons.
@@jimtryon1560 true
@@jimtryon1560 sometimes too much choice is a bad thing.
@@Lexcepcion You should tell that to the grocery stores.
I love these rant videos
Due to free code camp I’m starting with Java script knowing it’s just hard will make me cry 😢 a little less lol
Same 😂
Same here 😆
Its not really that hard to be fair. Just a bit of a mess.
@@thatguynar u mean js is a mess?
me: *started with js as a beginner and left programming as a whole*
JS in one sentence :
"Makes me cry"
Yes, Javascript is bad for beginners. Probably because it is just plain bad.
mike your C# vids have helped me a lot. im getting into coding brand new to it and starting with C#. please do a video like this for C#. your feelings on it for newbies.
I just love this guy❤️. Keep ranting i always watch your videos
I too felt very difficult when I came to js, even though I knew Python, Java when I came to JS
Lex Fridman just did an interview with Brendan Eich lmaooo
I love the rant videos too even though plenty of the info is way over my head.
You should do what Bucky did a few weeks back and have a big live Q and A so we can pick your brain for a few hours.
With basic C experience I could get into javascript without much trouble. I still don't get CSS
Hello mike, im from Philippines i want to know your suggestions for what is your best tutorial in JavaScript
Uncaught ReferenceError: js is not defined at :1:1
When I started learning JS and saw all those frameworks I had to learn I just quit
Never give up
Please make a video on asynchronous javascript (callbacks, promises, async await, fetch)
Finally 😂 A vid after all this long
24 hours?
@@SecretAgentPaul I don't think that he knew
It seems a lot of people on this video have only just got their first notification that Mike's back.
He's been ranting for about 4 days now lol
I learned python n html from u and I am an absolutely beginner w no code bg but I understood those two perfectly fine. I have been learning js for more then a dozen hours and i find it kind of messy… like everything just throw together in one line😅python is much more neat to the core n elegant… it is able to keep things in the simplest logic. I might be totally wrong but. After hearing u talked abt what js was meant to do in the beginning, I kind of understand why it is so piled up. Yes, i wish there is an more integrated language system for it. Last but not least, thank you so much for developing so much tutorials! If it was not bc of ur great tutorials, i wouldn’t have kept learning! You r a great teacher! N plz come back n teach us more abt JavaScript. 😅If anyone could nail it, it would be you! Would be great if u can make following up tutorials after beginner ones!
For those who are saying, he's back,
He came back 2 weeks ago
I am learning C# in preparation for Blazor.
Hi Mike just an advice don't repeat i don't know a lot in your videos and try not to put your hand on your head, you're authentic but try to get rid of those 2 things, good luck
😂I'm a beginner, it's been 4 months now and I'm leaning how to add logging using winston, handling errors and logging the exact error message... I don't know Mike, although I'm enjoying it
I'm just glad that from learning "hello World" from you, I am at a point now that I agree with you on a rant video.
"Massive" isn't big enough to explain the learning curve.
Can I say that you forgot your double inverted commas.
It seems the JavaScript is becoming ubiquitous even beyond the browser, which is terrifying given its such an awful language. Like you I wonder where this will all end up.
Finally!!!! Someone understands my dilemma. I wish there was a way to turn back time so that I could bonk the guy who came up with Node js and the other stuff.
I miss days when you need jQuery, you had to add to your html's head.
Yes, things are overwhelming complicated today.
I've been building smallish websites for businesses, bloggers, personal, portfolios etc for over 20 years.
I've never ever used or written a single line of javascript.
I've only now in the last month or so started to learn it, mainly to see what all the fuss is about and for my own satisfaction.
I really like JavaScript, but this is partially why I refocused my efforts from web development to learning SQL, Python, and database development (that, and I have a potential job opportunity as a SQL dev). I’ll always enjoy doing web design in my free time, but I’m really enjoying learning database development, and it just seems like less of a headache to learn so far.
I just realized that I’d rather continue learning and doing web development stuff in my free time rather than doing it as a career.
That being said, I still recommend learning how to code by starting with web development.
Js is bad for everyone, not just for beginners.
"Thank you Mike!"
Make videos on asyn promises etc.
Mike Please do the bootcamp
Nothing wrong with any codebase. Its all about how its used.
There’s no real need for frameworks and they all cause poor performance and waste energy.
Best thing to do is only serve code that is going to be used. In most cases this means designing webpages like the Japanese designed video games in the late 90s.
"Is JavaScript BAD for Beginners?" Yes, it is. It introduces the user to several bad habits that are very hard to remove later. In this respect, it is as bad as visual basic. It should be avoided as a teaching language. Python, Java and many other languages are much cleaner, much more controllable and are a much better fit for educational purposes.
Said that, of course, we also have to say that Javascript is the most diffused language in the world nowadays and we cannot avoid it. If you want to survive as a professional programmer you have to know it and hence it is always a good idea to study it.
We can find many justifications for the existence of Javascript and for its horrible syntax but, honestly, we'd better ask why it is still the only language that the browsers can understand. Mozilla Firefox still has a working implementation of XPCOM that allows interfacing its rendering engine with any possible language. It even had for many years a working implementation of Python as a scripting language thanks to PyXPCOM. Google made something very similar with Dartium, the Dart-capable version of Chromium (the Open Source version of Google Chrome).
So WHY we cannot choose our implementation language when working inside a browser? WHY must we use the absolute worst language available?
And WebAssembly? Is it related toXPCOM as well?
Yep, Dart is so so so much better, I later found out that most of your coding is in React or what not because using JS for everything thing is not practical. I think Dart is good step i'm learning react mostly decided to skip learning the non framework JS. I'll just google if I need to know something.
What bad habits are you talking about if I may ask? I’m learning WebDev and I would like to know which habits I should think of in my learning process.
You can't choose the implementation language because that would mean that all browsers would need every runtime environment prepackaged. This is a silly opinion.
@@Anonymous-sq6eo wrting shphegatti code all in one file without even separating the logic and views and shit
*I love how passionate and genuine you are- I’m a big fan. I just started learning python - just for the heck of it- and I’m loving it*
I agree on everything you said here. I've been learning programming (JavaScript/TypeScript) for 6 months now and mannn the more I learn it, the more I realise how beginner unfriendly it is... I probably wouldn't recommend it to a friend as their first language to learn (probably better to start off with Python to learn those base programming concepts).
But with all of that said - I still really love JS and do not regret that I started with it and I'm pretty sure it will remain my main language :D ^^
Can we expect to see TypeScript tutorial series? And how to work with TypeScript in React?
Who the f**k disliked this video😡
I love these rants. Thoughts from a professional like you are really useful for beginners like me.
Dude, if you make an intermediate/advanced C# tutorial I will give you 1 billion dollars.
Edit: Got mugged earlier, no longer have 1 billion dollars.
Long long time ago, front end and javascript is a peaceful place. Then jquery was born, we can do tons of cool tricks. And front end still remained peaceful whereas other language dev kept fighting each other for the best programming language crown. The big day came, god sent a new baby named as node to programming planet. Since that day, the world would never be the same. Javascript dev who hid themselves for a long time suddenly stepped out of their shade. At that moment, they can do backend like other language did. And then 3 largest clans Angular, React, Vue were formed, there is an endless war in front-end.
I agree with a lot of what you say, even the part about being a React developer and enjoying the torture of using all these tools (I like setting up webpack from scratch). But yes I started learning JavaScript, Node, and React early last year and even though I am coding and working on projects every day for most of the day I still feel like there is a lot more to learn. And with unlimited ways to implement the same functionality, is can be difficult to stay consistent. I often find myself looking at old work and wanting rearrange everything utilizing techniques that I've learned since the last time I've looked at that project.
I find it funny how much time I spent struggling with trying to understand the fundamentals, and now every so often I will read some documentation or watch a video on some of the fundamental basics of JavaScript and think about how hard it was for me to understand the first time but now the concepts are so clear.
Gir-rant Academy
xD
😂😂😂👌🔥🔥
document.write("its true")
File handling in php
Love the rant videos, someone has to say all this out loud on a public platform.
Keep making such videos, your subs will definitely go up, because people need to know the facts.
I totally feel this way. Been working in my spare time trying to learn JavaScript and I have hit a wall. HTML and CSS were no problem and even learning the basics of JavaScript was fine. But then when I sit down and try to create something, I find that there are all these intricacies in just getting an app to run with JS and I feel defeated. Trying to push through. Mike’s vids have been very helpful. It’s nice to know that I’m not stupid and that JS implementation is very hard.
Yeah because thats the problem for most of the ppl, they watch tutorials and it seems so easy ...its like yeah i understand everything but when they want to actually build somehting all of a sudden everyhitng seems impossible! The way to do it is to try to build something after you watch a bit and no you will not understand anything and ...solve problems and then get things but it takes alot of fuken time....obviously. Im leaning PHP now for the exact reasons that the guy talked about...and after PHP i will learn java script but with php its the same , you watch you kinda think you got it and then if somebody tells you to do the most basic shyte there is, you just cannnt even think about how to do it. IF you cannot imagine the steps then you cannot do shit , and then you research , you do it with mostly copying code and then try to understand it , break the code down in pieces get one thing out of 10 then do another project , where now the code seems familiar , still you dont get it but you learn another thing on top of the 1 think that you know, copy the code make a sign up or a register and then you investigate what you just did and again and again and after 2-3 months some things start to make sense and you kinda create a process in your head , you learn to think what the fucken cormputer whats you to and hopefully after 1 year you can actually create things by yourself ! Its not an overnight process and because the concepts are weird its hard to gasp it at first!
Man, thanks for making this video. Yeah we need to come up with a different name for 'programming' in Javascript. It's not about writing code in the language, it's about making a handful of different libraries, frameworks, browsers, services, ecosystems, butterflies, stray cats...etc all work together. New programmers should definitely have an understanding of how a language like C# works in comparison IMO. Hang on to your butts, npm install.... here we go!
we shall declare Mike as our prophet who speaks for everyone who have no voice to say what we want.
I HATE javascript. I can rant for ...... the whole object creation is like some = {}, then some['a'] = 1, and we got { 'a': 1}.....what kind of syntax is this?????? Isn't [] for array???? Even after 10 years, I refuse to remember this shit. Every time I write this, I feel like a complete idiot. And
The whole, shift and unshift, who even come up with this name?????? You would think unshift is to remove an item, but in fact shift is to remove an item. Can't they just name it "removeFirst", "addFirst". Everyone can remember. And pop, its fine. Just, when you have shift, pop just like what the hell now. Do you unPop, nope, you Push.....sighhhh....
The whole function arrow, my lord. = () => this whole syntax is stupid. I don't even want to get into it. And async has to be in front of the parenthesis........roll my eyes.....
The whole new private class with #, like really
Man I'm in this freaking hell right now. As soon as I want to make something even minimal with Javascript I get a ton of videos and papers and Stackovberflow to read.
And there's another thing you forgot to mention:
HOW TO F&%ING DEAL WITH OLDER CODE?????
I am testing a Chrome extension made in JQUERY and EVERYBODY told me not to take JQUERY seriously because we now use ECMAScript. But here I am trying to understand how you "used to work" in order to try to make a simple feature. :-/
There is a way for Beginners to learn JavaScript without all the confusing stuff like AJAX, JSON, jQuery, Node, React, Angular, Vue, or Express.
Start from basics with JavaScript (Web/Plain/Vanilla), nothing more, nothing less.
Once they have mastered the basics, they can then decide which pathway to pursue (e.g. Node, React, Angular, Vue).
This is UNBELIEVABLE, literally ever other RUclips video I watch people pushing html, css then JS. glad I've watched this.
Back to square 1
Maybe we could try and build a framework similar to js that makes websites more reactive. But more organized, more begginer friendly.
Js will never change, so we can either learn it or try a new angle.
Well yeah... but what's the difference between JavaScript == bad and JavaScript === bad
Web development is just SO WEIRD.
Usually stuff in programming makes alot of sense but in webdev its like... A weird error happens and it only does because some Mechanic of the programming language is inherently weird...
Especially with php but also a little bit JS.
Luckyly php slowly gets pushed out by node js and stuff but we Still have Javascript 😅
Js still feels so wonky and weird... Honestly I prefer python but it sadly doesn't work in the browser?
It might as replacement of php tho 🤔
Still have to test this. Honestly I don't miss my days of web development!
I had no concept of what the "bestist" language in teh whole wide worldy was to learn. I picked up a book from my tutors bookcase, which just happened to be a C Programming Book but could have been Javascript, Python etc etc.. and I read it from start to back until I could comfortably write a Blackjack game. Then after that I asked the question, well what can I do now? win32? OpenGL? Web Development? Mobile Apps? the worlds your oyster. Go code and stop over thinking....
*rant over*
At least it's not as bad/hodgepodge as PHP. ;)
Like PHP I think people learn it because it's everywhere.
Unlike PHP you have the Not Invented Here my CoolNewLib developers with Root on MacBooks trying to make their mark.
There was some "so bad it's good" or "bad enough to be used everywhere" quote about either JS or PHP and I can't remember or find it now.
The truth is, it's unrealistic for most people to be a solid web developer in a week or even 90 days. You listed a fraction of the tech stack you need to learn. Add onto that UX and UI principals, software engineering principals, project management, business management skills, client skills, etc. There is a lot to learn and none of it needs you to know how to do recursion or figure out the O notation if you stick with clean code and solid libraries.
Sounds like a beginner would be better off learning INTERCAL instead... What I draw from listening to this, is that browser portability with JavaScript is not at all straightforward.
Yes. That's what javascript was for. And it was even kind of badly designed for that. Now to shoehorn that nonsense into backend code or even non web code is just madness. Use literally anything else. Python has no type safety but at least it makes sense and is well designed. C# is well designed, well documented and as a managed language it's decent. C++ for anything that requires performance. C for anything embedded that doesn't have a lot of memory. Java if your boss is a sadist. Literally any other language is fine. Why would someone have that absolutely ridiculous idea of using a frontend language, designed (and badly at that) to manipulate websites, and use it for general purpose. Ridiculous.
The sane choice would've been to use lua from the very beginning and have javascript not be a thing at all.
Every language requires some time to learn. The problem is design and consistency within a language. If you have 5 == "5" come out as true, then something is wrong with your language design. Or 2 + "2" results in "22" and 2 - "2" results in 0. These small inconsistencies stack up and at the end of it all you have a giant mess where everything is complicated to do.
If you try 5 == "5" in c++ you get a compiler error.
If you try 5 == "5" in python you get false. If you try 5 + "5" in python you get an exception.
Those languages make sense.
I totally agree with you, Dane. Also, in my opinion, JavaScript is the easiest programming language to kick start (I can teach a 6 year old kid to write "hello, world!" in less than 5 minutes using JavaScript), and it is also the hardest programming environment/platform/tools/frameworks to master. But, we have to take it. Because, nowadays, JavaScript and JSON are everywhere, from front end to backend, to database, and even desktop applications.
Hello Mike, im from Argentina. Thanks for all you content (sorry my bad grammar). Do you have a video explaining how to make python proyect executables (.exe, .bat) with installer? im new to this.
Thanks again!
Plain JS? Of course is completely bad. Not only in terms of learning beginners, but also making scalable apps as well. Heck, even I as an experienced developer in the industry consider plain JS as horrible language to make huge apps, because of all of the crazy things you can do there
However... TS changes everything. Especially when you combine it with some IoC like Inversify (my favorite) in the backend and use Angular on the frontend which gives you almost everything out-of-the-box without even needing to configure anything.
And... TS does this so well, that it is the my language of choice today almost for anything. Because it takes down the complete overload and headache of doing simple things hardly like Java does. Also... you can do static typing without needing to explicitly type every single goddamn thing which makes code very easy to read (since you can check the type by mousover on vaariable in VSCode or WebStorm f.e).
So.. yeah. Plain JS is horrible, but TS makes it a best suited language for me
Bootcamps are the biggest scams these days, offering you 3 months Full-Stack Web & App Developer course and in entire course you get 2 weeks of JS and then you jump to React for client-side & , Node.js for server-side. IMHO I feel alone one need atleast a year to learn JS.
I agree with your take on the situation. JavaScript is a different animal than other languages. It always feels like you are aiming at a moving target but there is a good portion of the language that is supported by almost all browsers that cover almost all of what most people need to do in the language. That is a lot of qualifiers which makes for a lot of gray areas. I do not think JS is a bad language to start out with though since there are SO MANY resources available. However, I believe we do not do a great job setting up expectations of the language and how it is different from other languages. Most resources make it seem like it is easy, which it can be if you are aware of the pitfalls. We should be honest when we are helping students 'color between the lines' and not be alarmed when they 'hit the edges' causing the whole thing to fall apart.
Thank you so much Mike, for the very important points about JavaScript
Before you even begin. Yes, it is crap! Amazingly crap. Of all the languages I've worked with, I hate Javascript the most. I actually feel like I need to shower everytime I touched it. It's really time that the powers that be start from scratch and replace it with something decent.
12:35. My thoughts exactly. Javascript is like a 100 story building build on the foundation intended for a family home. It's crap, it's 20 years out of date, it is redundant. Building websites is like buiding aircraft carriers propelled by sails.
Languages have Arguments...there're Arguments in itself(so called the softwares), that's why we humans never unification in Languages. I'm learning js right now into 6 months+ , only spend 2hrs a day at work to study coding from the university of google & youtube. All i know now was putting objects together, and almost declarations of properties etc! Not knowing to put the logical objects & values syntax into the function scope yet. So difficult. But i keep pushing to see how far i could go on.
As a beginner Javascript doesn't make any sense. it's way to much ( ) $ " # $ ¤ ! ^ * ' ` ½ § < > and so on. why can't they just use words like HTML and CSS instead. write a full word gives a better meaning what we actually doing instead of using symbols and var, echo, document etc etc that points to no understanding at all
Javascript is shit. I know how to code with Java, python and C++. Javascript is by far the WORST language I've tried to learn.
You’re the Michael Bublé of programming/coding educators 😄
No. Javascript is very easy Because If you have one language you can code in which languages as Java , Lua , C , C++ , C# , Python , Javascript have the same Appearancecss for Them Except Html and CSS have another appearance.
This is my note of 5 years of coding
Bottom line, CS nerds are forcing JavaScript to be something it wasn't meant to be, but I see the concept behind "one language, different tech stacks." However, it didn't really work out that way🤣🤣🤣
I find javascript is easier to code in than php. I hate php. Compared to php frameworks, coding in Express and node.js is much easier. Unlike php, you can understand what you are doing as you go along, and the set up is simple. Just getting started in CodeIgniter, one of the lightweight frameworks of php, is harder. Node.js is just an extension of normal JS, so that's what's good about JS. Once you learn it, you can do both the front end and back end. It is the Apple of programming languages. You can get a lot done with it. You can be more productive, and can start creating things earlier even when you are just starting out in the language. PHP is more for geeks. Hard to get going in it. Looking at PHP code gives me a headache. Just my humble opinion.
Programming languages click at different intervals, that's just the harsh truth, Javascript is the hardest because of the hype around it, and people get confused about all these things, like when I started I always thought webpack was another language that I had to learn, but here is the road map:
Fundamentals,
Practice for several months,
Then choose your favourite(frontend or backend),
Then pick your potion, and voila, you're a developer now.
what do you think about Haxe as an alternative to javascript? (another language for the web?)
or instead of dealing with js bundlers and typescript, just work in Haxe to output JS?
then you'll have the tools to write for any other environment. (compiles/integrates to other languages)
i have a similar relationship with CSS.... it is very inconsistent and it feels like i am constantly fighting it and juggling with how different browsers ( AND individual versions of those browsers ) will display the same CSS code. so what happens is a messy CSS file with a bunch of webkit and IE hacks in it. wow i do not miss those days. and those days were when javascript was only being used for simple buttons like you said. but then the Jquery libraries came together with the horrible scroll lag and i was like; i am out of here...... i had to stop and find something else to do.
Love these rants Mike! So thank you. I've been 'learning' JS for years! Just thought I had pie for brains, as I just have never been able to grasp it in any logical fashion! But seeing this definitely makes me feel better :)
You are blaming Javascript for the mushroom explosion of frameworks and the not invented here syndrome common among web developers. Stick with native Javascript if you are teaching. The frameworks are largely dumpster fires.
There are a few bad programming languages but Javascript would be way down the list if you want to classify it as bad for beginners. The way it is often taught is very, very bad.
By the way, the Javascript of the 1990s is not the same Javascript we have today. Javascript can now be used for client-side and server-side development.
JavaScript is basically not for beginners.
For beginners and eternal beginners we have PHP
Glad I found this channel. Definitely going to keep up with your videos from now on. See your soon!
Have you made up your mind about having an *IN PERSON* classroom setting?
thank you for share your thoughts 😁👍
And you've actually ranted only about the ecosystem when in fact the language itself is so bad because it's riddled with weird inconsistencies. I mean you've mentioned typescript ... Let me ask you this: have you ever seen a language with such a poor design that there is a need for another language on top of it just to make it somewhat usable?
This language man... I'd advise everyone to not pick Javascript if you want to learn how to code. Pick literally any other language which is more restrictive and well defined, learn about the why's and once you've got a grasp on the core concepts you can dip your toe into the JS ecosystem.
And the best advice I can give you is to not get discouraged if you can't understand another person's code - it's their fault for not making it expressive enough probably because they themselves didn't know how to do it cleaner.
Now, you guys are saying Javascript is bad for beginners , so which one is easy for beginners, Python, c++, c#, Java or what? 🤔 🤔
As someone who's gotten quickly comfortable learning Python as one of my first languages and now struggling to complete a year-long javascript-based webdev project, I feel validated by Mike (who taught me React) feeling the same way I do. It just seems so messy and disconnected. As powerful as it is, let's just say that a lot of my time is spent fixing dumb bugs, trying to understand what the hell my code is doing, and like 1% conceptual programming/coding. It just seems so damn inefficient. I'll stick to Python after this (and probably just avoid webdev lol).
Html css and python is fine.
Just give the site good designs with html and css. Then make it work with python.
And now pytho is coming to the browser soo. The only thing that made javascript bigger python is now being taken by python, so python is easier and does front and back end soo.
Your alright .
absolutely that's why am learning strongly typed language like C# first => {self taught full stack developer } and learning angular to what it provides all in one framework and I don't mind the learning curve
I'm kinda beginner too, but as a beginner who learned and used a bunch of different programming languages, believe me, this guy is telling the truth.
Oh, and this is not a simple ranting, to be honest. This vid helps to understand JS and the difference btw JS and other languages. Thumbs up definitely.