Stoked to hear that Juan. The data was definitely eye opening. His website www.jset.run has a lot more detailed info about the data as well, check it out if you haven't already. Thanks!
This works because it is one of the ironies of life. That which is hard (slowing down) is almost always that which is needed. Anybody can go out and run hard and fast because that is what is enjoyable...that is what is fun. The hard part is seeing if you can run slow. Can you mentally handle running slow. Can your ego deal with it. Can you admit you have to run slow because your not in the shape you assumed you were. Your having to run slow for a reason. That is hard. That is not enjoyable. That is where the struggles come in. Running slow is easy so why is it so hard. The human ego.
it’s not ego, your whole form changes when you deliberately slow down instead of letting your body run at its own comfortable pace. it’s a nice idea but it’s complete nonsens
Lol, no this works because Zone 2 is the most efficient heart rate zone for developing mitochondrial efficiency and lactate clearing, not some nonsense about ego.
Lol, no this works because Zone 2 is the most efficient heart rate zone for developing mitochondrial efficiency and lactate clearing, not some nonsense about ego.
I have been doing this for years , I am 62 and have found that doing speed work around 10 to 20 percent helps trigger the speed to come. Run a nice slow 2 km warmup 10 km at maffetone 180 minus age then throw in a 2km 6min/km speed pace then warm down.
Great interview! This is concept of Maximum Aerobic Function is so critical for all endurance athletes yet discarded because it is so simple. I enjoy seeing an athlete take this concept to such fast times supported with simplicity of approach and attention to details. Epic video! Thank you both for putting this together.
Doesn’t seem like he’s specifically referring to max aerobic capacity - he places as much viability in short intense workouts, and specifically says in this video you can substitute speed for distance. His premise of taking your average pace over the previous 8 weeks regardless of the proportion of speed v endurance seems quite unconventional, but interesting to see so much detail he has provided on it.
what about the idea that have to condition ur body to handle crashing down on one foot 180 times a minute and learn to coordinate ur movements is where a lot of the gains come from as well as.
I've watched many of these podcasts more than once. This episode is quickly becomming a favourite of mine. There's so much great info here. Today's take away - checking my HR after a hard 5km race to get an idea of my max racing HR. I'm doing a 5km time trial this Saturday and I am interested in learning more re my max HR.
Very similar to Arthur Lydiard's philosophy. Build a huge aerobic base for endurance and 'tirelessness'. Also helps avoid injury and burnout, therefore enabling more consistent high mileage training
I have already watched this 3 times ahah. Such an enlightening interview, congrats to you both, Floris for asking the right questions and really leaving Josh the time to give insightful answers. Lots of info to take in, thanks so much!
Lydiard was talking about the speed training of his day. He has "non-aerobic" work in his base phases and would issue brutal workouts at the right time.
Very interesting and unusual approach to marathon training, but the fact that it yields results is essentially not very surprising. Bottom line, dude consistently puts in about 20 hours worth of traning every week. Albeit on low intensity, that amount of training is going to have effects on the system. Most semi-competitive (or even straight up ambitious) do not put in even half of that amount of weekly training. Let's not forget that the marathon is mainly an aerobic event, all he is doing is maximizing his aerobic potential. Having said that, a bit of conservative quality work in the weeks leading up to the marathon probably wouldn't hurt.
I just set a PB Best in the marathon running a sub 3 by training for a 100k, lots of easy slow miles. Running not racing the 100k (needing to get a western states qualifier in) and then in 6 weeks turning it around and working on getting fast for a marathon. With this I wonder if I even needed the 6 weeks, but I think you need to get some race specific focus down in the few weeks before the race almost no matter the distance.
Norman Johnstone appreciate you watching it. Happy to help spread the word about low HR and minimal speedwork. Several exciting other videos in the works
Just stumbled upon this going through older interviews (thank you for this great channel!). Somehow the Tanda model feels flawed and here’s a simple thought experiment to illustrate my point: Runner A does 10x500 m runs a day at 3:00 pace. That’s 35 km per week at 3:00 average. Runner B does 10x500 m intervals daily with a 500 m jog at 6:00 pace after ever interval. That’s 10 km total in 45 minutes, so 4:30 pace. So 70 km per week at that average pace. Who would run the faster marathon? I’d say B. If I fill in the calculator for me being runner A, the predicted time is 2:43:27. For B it’s 3:04:25…
As a 1:55 800, 8:38 3k, 14:59 5k, 2:36 26.2 with only 2 months of training; I've never messed around with a heart rate training program but I can vouch for slower runs with a mix of the bottom ends of aerobic runs to everything else. From here on out I am living in a very hilly area in El Paso Texas living at 4,000 feet where the weather is hawt. Im tired of being very tired every third day, so I'm going back to my old days except while throwing some accelerations and a cross training day with a every other week 3 mile tempo. I was running in college 2-3 times a day around 110-120 miles and I went off to run my faster 8k around 25:36 with many days being run with the slowest female. It really did help. As he does say. It all matters on the person and what you adapt to. The whole thing is an experiment and it all depends how bad you want it. Cheers y'all!
@@FlorisGierman well. I wasn't intentionally planning to run a marathon and I never run based off of heart rate. I only take very easy days. I guess its the same. I made sure to mix in heavy volume and ins and outs along with very long runs on Sundays along with swimming, altitude running, and 2 mile repeats at marathon pace on the track. Thats predominantly the training though.
Makes me wonder if Josh could benefit at this stage now, with some speed work to even go faster than his PB at this time. Comes a time when you need to change things up, to move forward. Perhaps a few more % speed runs but still an overall amount of easy running of course.
This is awesome. I’m a one meal per day runner. I eat dinner at about 6pm. It’s a HUGE dinner (about 2500 calories), but I run during my lunch hour every day. I feel great, and I did my first marathon in March at 3:37 with no refueling. I felt great. Might have been able to go faster, but I didn’t want to over exert myself on the first time out. Next year, I’m aiming for a sub 3... might be too lofty a goal, but I’m running about 40-50 miles per week at the moment, and keeping my HR at 143 (I’m 42, and healthy). So far, so good. I’m hoping to get my milage up to about 60-70 miles/week. I think I’ll start doing a morning run in addition to the lunchtime one. This video is exactly what I needed to see. Thank you so much, gentlemen! 😁👍🏻🏃💪🏻
You're hardcore! How was it for you to transition from a regular eating schedule to one big meal a day? Nice work on your runs. The increase in training volume should definitely help bring your marathon time down further as well. Glad you enjoyed the video, thanks!
Hello. I'm also a one meal a day runner, I eat around 6pm and train just before I eat. I eat a big meal and I eat a carnivore diet. I love fasted running, it's so much better. I've done two half marathons taking no energy or even water during the race. I'm not on your level but I'm thinking of giving the marathon a try.
@@beatingobesity2410 interesting to hear more and more people around me doing some type of intermittent fasting or even one meal a day. I would highly recommend taking in water though, there is no need to let your heart rate go higher because of thicker blood, especially on races, marathons etc. Have fun out there on your runs, thanks for sharing!
I had to start the intermittent fasting because I was on cholesterol meds, a sleep apnea machine, and couldn’t workout without hurting myself. I started one meal per day in late September of 2018, and didn’t start running until December. I gave myself plenty of time to acclimate before I added anything physical, but I lost so much weight (55 lbs) and get so good that I thought I should give it a try. Since then, I’m a running junkie. I research everything I can about form and self care (stretching/rolling/diet), and I’m considering the ultra marathon world soon. I’ve started running once in the morning, and once during my lunch hour, to try to get more miles under my belt per week. I’ve never felt so good, am off the meds and apnea machine, and am excited to see how far I can go. Also, as a theme park musician, I now have the energy and stamina to play better and enjoy myself more. Life is just better with the diet and running, and Floris’ channel has made it even better. The Maffetone approach is amazing!! I keep getting stronger and faster as a runner, and have been injury free the whole time (knock on wood).
love this video thank you i train with low heart rate many times a weeks including low heart rate on bike to increase my mileage and its made a huge difference no injuries no pain recovery fast.....just perfect and always have great race result this way....occasionally a quick 5km but all easy runs is great way to improve time thanks
I'm so excited by this video. So I'm trying to train for my first 1/2 marathon in only six weeks and all I have to do is slow gradually increasing mileage. Coincidently enough that was already my plan because I didn't wan to risk an injury by speed work outs. This changes everything about running training. You can even tell if your training enough by using the Race predictor? Wow. Life's good! Thank you!
I have jogged for over thirty years. Four months ago I started running this Maffetone model at 114-120 HR since I am 66 and the pace was 13 minutes a mile (five minutes slower per mile than my top speed) and sometimes having to walk to get the heart rate down. I see no improvements after four months, running four times a week at 45 minutes to an hour at a time. Thus, be forewarned that not all people respond to this model. The videos Floris and others show are the success stories for young athletes. I am coming to think that we need something different and more research oriented for the older runner.
Jon, I think if you incorporate a progressive runs from the 114bpm up to your threshold HR, and also spend 1 workout a week with a main set that has some intervals at threshold but warm up and cool down at those low recovery rates, you will see some improvement. Also, 4 months is just about the beginning of the time it would take to start seeing any kind of difference. I'm 42 and have been running for 4 years. At this point, I cant say that I am faster than before by my aerobic base is night and day different than it was a year ago.
@@tonyhuebel483 Thanks for your feedback. It is reassuring to know that four months is when progress starts to show up. And it is interesting to learn that aerobic fitness increased, but speed did not. One question: is threshold HR my top heart rate?
Jon Frederickson, threshold is basically what you can hold for an hour. There are ways to calculate it or test for it. As a younger athlete one could test their max HR and base zones on that. If you have done any races you can get a general idea and extrapolate based on duration
From the Maffetone website: "The 180 Formula may need to be further individualized for people over the age of 65. For some of these athletes, up to 10 beats may have to be added for those in category (d) in the 180 Formula, and depending on individual levels of fitness and health. This does not mean 10 should automatically be added, but that an honest self-assessment is important." (category (d) are people that have been training for more then 2 years).
He's absolutely correct about the fasting, I've started the fast from 8pm to 1pm, so no breakfast, 1st week was tough was fantasizing about bacon, toast etc. But after the first week I was managing easily and stopped feeling hungry.
so excited about this little new "discovery" of mine. Been pushing myself hard always on the verge of a big injury seeing little improvement. Will definitely try a slower pace and more kms.thanks.
I find this podcast awesome. The notion of devoting more time whilst trying to avoid injuries by not running low volume and really fast/fast too often makes so much sense for a decent Marathon. Given that the Marathon is 99% Aerobic , Aerobic Metabolism runs "With Oxygen". Ideally the Marathon pace hr is well under the 1hr L.T.H.R (perhaps 8-12bpm being the 1st half of Marathon). Thoroughly enjoyed this podcast.
I would venture that cycling with hills is quite a dynamic tension creating excercise. Cycling is a perfect compliment to run training for generating strength and speed. Muscle fatigue is only one dimension. There is also core strength and posture. The physiological benefit of strength training pays loads of dividends. This is all very interesting. I train for Obstacle races at varying diatances and terrain, so cross training is essential. I started running 5 years ago @8 min/mile pace running 1 mile a day. Then year 2 I ran 20 minutes a day. Now I train 1 to 2 hours a day and 1 3 to 5 hour day a week. I have breakthroughs every year. Last year I ran 9 miles/15k a day for 30 days to see if I could. I'm 38 now and just getting started. Cheers. It is true that training is different for everyone. I like to have my training change and vary quite often.
Nice to hear an example of someone as starting times and what they're up to now. As a beginner I'm always wondering how much faster I could get, but a lot of coaches/authors/runners never really say where they were compared to where they are.
how are you progressing? i'm a lazy person so love the maffetone method. even if not in the mood, not much of an excuse not to get out walking/slow running. i don't mind doing strength work a few times a week which seems perfect for this method. I did 2 half hour runs yesterday and one the previous day. not sore today but feeling generally run down which i'm not sure related as sleep and diet not very good. i'm hoping to have the discipline to get the 2 slow runs in a day and everything else sorts out around that. try to stretch the major muscle groups at least once a day. Atm my strength work is lunges and calf raises.
@@nikitaw1982 I personally never committed to the pure low HR method. I actually enjoy the burn etc of higher intensity. Had an 9 month hiatus after a stress fracture. Been consistently getting 35km a week I'm of 80:20 since November in prep for a half marathon in march before stepping up for full marathon in August
@@macfin4862 i like the high intensity burn stuff as well. I think i have to get that in cross training atm. PS my brother was good at 400 and 800 and cross counry. He said stand on one leg and cyle the other as fast as you can like B skips i guess. I like doing that just slowly. i did a few rounds today with ankle weights just for something to do to strengthen hip flexors and get lower abs and standing leg hip muscles all coordinated. I think if get shin splints, i would do that plus cross training. All the best for August!! PS i'm in love with the S for sam S-force matrix cross trainer. Only a few gyms have them but the first few times ur thighs scream and almost up chuck lol. i did 3 times a week and by third week i couldn't get that passing out from effort or thigh burn sensation...I want to use that as staple to strength legs and cross train. I was built for rugby players with joint issues. I don't know why not more popular. every gym near me has a dozen matrix treadmills, swap one for one of these..PS do you think rucking trails is good cross training?
where is the line for adaptation... will brisk walking with a heart rate of 120bpm add on to this volume? -- + running 3 x a week . I have one crappy knee so struggle to run alot . Also just curious about where one could get maximum adaption will minimal injury risk .
I'd like to go back to that method one day. I tried it for a couple of months and noticed an improvement in my heart rate, but also noticed runs started to feel "easy", in that I knew I wouldn't have to run uphill because my heart rate would go up, so in the end my mind kinda started to panic a bit because I thought I was losing what I had gained. I guess it's a matter of patience and believing in the method.
Can you please talk about issues w/ older runner having to run really low heart passes if based on age? I would like to hear from older competitive runners and what heart rate they train in for MAF. Thanks
Hi Floris, thanks for the video, really interesting content. My thing with the MAF method (I don’t claim to know everything about it) is the time commitment needed to engage with the sort of low heart rate running required. I know you discuss him running up to 120 mile weeks (roughly) for his 2:28 but I’ve run three sub 2:45 marathons, all off a maximum of about 75 miles per week. I’m fully aware that to take the next step I would need to increase my weekly mileage but it’s just so difficult to do that when you have a job / family etc. What’s your take on the idea that running quicker (tempo; long reps on track etc) gives you more ‘bang for your buck’ if you’re not able to get up to that 100 miles per week?
Great points right there, I'm fully in the same boat with you. I'd like to improve from my 2:44 but there is no way I can run anywhere near the milage Josh is running. He only runs 2-3% high HR. When you look at Jason and Jonathan, they do more higher HR workouts than 2-3%. Even guys like Mark Allen still did a few days a week higher HR workouts. In your case, I would get that % up higher to 10, 15, 20% max and see how your body handles it and how you progress aerobically. Hope that helps
I would be very curious to see some data/science on this. I hear the advice on easy running from people like Bobby McGee and have no doubt it works for his runners, but running is basically their full time job. For those of us who can't commit to that, I wonder how various ratios of low vs. high-intensity workouts affect endurance, speed, and injury rate. Another aspect I think about is form vs pace. In the video, Josh talked about doing his slow runs at 4:47 min/ km (7:41 mi). That's fast enough to still have a form that basically resembles good racing form (in terms of cadence/turnover, stride, etc.). For me to run at such a low heart rate, I would have to run at closer to 10:00 min/mile, which would result in a very different form, more of a shuffle/jog. Will that affect my ability to run with good form when I'm going faster in a race?
@@exerciserelax8719 That's an easy fix, run as slow as you can while still maintaining good turnover and form and if you need to lower the pace even more include walk breaks. Simple.
Thank you Floris, this is another great interview. It was particularly interesting that he does not drink anything other than just water. No gels, nothing! I wonder if he can stick to this when becoming eventually faster. Also, the idea of this Tanda marathon race prediction being so accurate surprised me.
Hes very Fat Adapted in the Mitochondria. 220km a wk @5min/kms would be approx 12kmh x 17-18hrs a wk if he does 1 run a wk nearer marathon pace. Cheers
Thank You - great information - I have just started the HR training - i will be trying to do100% easy runs since 1 May , i am already doing fasting , usually 18 - 20 hours per day and have started some weeks ago training while fasting - Cheers guys
Can this be applied to beginner runners? I.e. he could run 6min/km at 135bpm, which is like a very fast pace for a beginner, who would be running at about 160bpm to achieve the same pace.. However if a beginner were to run at 135bpm, it would be 8 or 9min/km.. so I'm just wondering, if the low heart rate training benefits one who already has alot of running mileage or muscle power/memory/seasoned enough to run at a faster pace? P/S It would be interesting if you also did an interview with a new beginner runner who trains with this low HR method versus the common no pain no gain training method, not just the elite runners ( my 2 cents :) )
Yup! If you want more info, read 80/20 running or check out the TED talk by stephen seiler - he talks about exactly this. I can't even run 6min/km at 160, that speed takes me to like 180 and I've been training with low heartrate and making great progress.
I wish you would profile more runners that don’t have a Track or Cross Country history, just ordinary folk that have gotten into running using HR training.
Thanks for your feedback. There have been several "ordinary runners" that have found a lot of benefit with HR Training. Here are 5 of them you might want to check out: extramilest.com/blog/13-how-to-run-a-faster-marathon-with-bill-callahan/ extramilest.com/blog/how-to-improve-from-5-hour-marathon-to-sub-3-with-michael-ovens/ extramilest.com/blog/how-to-run-a-sub-3-marathon-with-jessica-kelley-and-gwen/ extramilest.com/blog/how-to-run-a-sub-3-hour-marathon-and-boston-qualifier-with-jay-motley/ extramilest.com/blog/how-to-qualify-for-the-boston-marathon-with-bobby-barker/ Cheers James!
Great interview. Just learning about the MAF method as i want to start implementing it as I'm only a casual runner with no real direction . 2 things i find rather interesting here is that Josh at the time of this interview was only 23 , based on the 180 Maf his Maf should be 157 yet he is doing almost all his runs exclusively about 20bpm below his Maf heart rate with still great success . Obviously this is due to the massive amount of mileage he puts in per week . Noticed he says he runs marathon at 166bpm and rising . This must be a shock to the system that usually works well below in training ??? Also quite astounded that 3 fast 5ks per week gives you the adaptation to run a 3hr marathon as per the race indicator .
Not sure if this is the correct place to ask but I dont know where else I would be able to get the answer so...what weekly mileage number do you use for the Tanda Race Predictor? Your "peak" weekly mileage and speed? Average weekly for your final month leading up to race? Average over the whole (lets say 16 week) training plan? Apologies if this is answered in the video. I did watch the whole thing....actually more than once but cant seem to remember hearing the answer. Thanks in advance.
Informative video but I think the key is his mileage rather than his average training pace. With that training load if he were to throw in an extra speedwork session or very slightly increase his pace then we'd be looking at a sub 2:20 guy.
Incredible podcast! That seems a little like the 'intensity points' that Jack Daneis discusses in his book. You can achieve your goal by running a lot at a slow pace or a little at a fast pace, as long as your intensity points are equivalent.
Mitochondrial density n capillaries increases your body gears for larger distance so it has to be strong. In contrast with an athlete going all out all the times n not recover or giving it body time to do the nessecary development of a powerful body which can withstand it
Very good video. But I believe it only tells half the story. Increasing your weekly mileage will certainly make you faster by building your aerobic base. But speed work such as intervals or Fartlek build your anaerobic capacity above and beyond this, enabling you to "switch it up" when necessary. I've been putting the miles in but doing no speed work. In a recent 10k I found I was breathing normally while more experienced runners around me were puffing and panting hard. Nevertheless as the race reached its end those same people puffed and panted their way into the distance ahead of me and I was unable to respond.
Hi John, glad to hear you enjoyed the video. Totally understand what you're staying. For a 10k race I'd definitely suggest doing some more speedwork, your race pace will be much higher for a 10k than on a marathon. Your normal breathing will be very beneficial for the later stages of a marathon or ultra endurance event.
Thanks for all the info, very informative! One thing I am curious about with this plan of the pace vs distance for training calculator, how would one factor in elevation into this strategy or for trails vs road etc? Also really like the emphasis on MAF
Anyhow I have questions concerning the calculator: - Do you include warm up and cool down in your average pace, cause obviously this is going to bring the average down quite alot. Say I run 4 miles at 7 min pace but then do a cool down mile at 930. logging that cool down mile is going to bring the pace down greatly? - Secondly, there must be a limit to this idea of just run- i.e. that , as discussed in the video, you can do it two ways, run less but at the right pace , to achieve say, a certain marathon time, or run more. Is there a limit in this calculator such as something stupid like 100-300 miles/week to get how ever miles it would equate to , much less obviously, to achieve a given marathon pace, if alot of those miles are spent at faster miles, nearer to marathon pace, than say the 100-300 miles at much slower - 9 to 11 min/miles. I mean basically does that calculator have a threshold to this,such that, e.g 200 miles a week at 11min/miles, will not give you a sub 230 marathon, or something like that? (sorry that's super long, my brains not typing succicently today).
I'd love to see a follow-up, to ask Josh what made him skip low heart rate training. Looking at his Strava he's doing a lot less miles and a lot of high heart rate track sessions
Thanks for this video. How I understand it is that you should be slowly increasing your aerobic volume and that will increase your pace by being able to run quicker with a lower heart rate for a longer time. Speed work is to work on form and strength and is to compliment not necessarily supplement your easy runs.
Woah this is great. I've been starting to run commute. I'm building up to ~70k/week (if I do to & back each day). What he says really puts this into perspective. I've been thinking about doing (another) marathon after a number of years of non-marathon, but I was kinda bummed that I already had high mileage built into my commute, not necessarily the extra time to do a whole lot of extra running outside of that (and worry about injury risks if I add too much to it). Taking in what he's saying, I'm feeling more optimistic - I could just put that marathon end of the summer. That leaves quite a few months of consistent, steady mileage without the need to add much of anything to it. Worst-case - doesn't work well for me and I just crash it at 4-4.5 hrs...
I don't understand how you run in training 4: 40 / km and suddenly you run 3: 30 / km in a race. 3:30 / km you have to be used to a whole marathon, right?
nope, you develop your aerobic system in training. During a marathon this will benefit you, that being said you will be racing faster and at a higher HR
@@FlorisGierman Thanks for your great interviews. I'm sure that his aerobic system is more than strong to run long and fast. However what surprised me is that his legs can handle a marathon at 3:30 min/km. I know it is true as I've just seen his strava profile. I always thought that was necessary to have several long runs at marathon pace (or close) under your belt in order to be muscularly prepared for the marathon. Excuse my English, I'm from Spain.
Really intrigued by this approach! Does this suggest that one can technically never run at marathon race pace or faster in order to achieve a target? According to the predictor website, I can achieve a sub3 if I run 100km weekly at 4:44/km average pace. What happens if I actually never touch on sub3 marathon pace (4:15/km) and only stick to 4:44/km on all my runs. Would this actually work? Surely I wouldn't be adapted to run at 4:15/km pace on race day, no?
My father always told me choir important it was to work calmly and focused, then you got more. This has been experienced after 40years of running myself.
Yeah I think the problem I found within the graph was that there was no total volume. So easy corrected when you starting running fast you will need to do three days. But there was no weekly limit for running 24 hours a day. This completely changes the 80/20 rule.
My question is, if I am already a very slow runner (first marathon 2 days ago at 5.36) is there still value in going slower than that? I feel going slower would just be a walk?
My mileage and pace in the tanda predictor are about :30 per mile slower than what I just ran in a marathon. I ran a 2:40:03 and the calculator says I should be a 2:54:27. That is insanely off!!!
Very misleading. As someone has already mentioned, the key here was averaging 100+ miles per week. You need a mix of easy recovery running and high intensity for optimal performance.
Ed Lucas thanks for your comment and sorry to hear you found this info very misleading! I think there is a misunderstanding. Josh runs high training volume, however you don't need to run 100+ miles per week to become a faster runner. I've personally connected with many runners around the world who slowed down their pace significantly with many of them doing very little high intensity workouts, and this resulted in their best race performances so far. They didnt run 100+ miles a week, some ran maybe half that volume. Many athletes get injured frequently by training too hard. Not every athlete enjoys high intensity workouts either. I absolutely believe there is a time and place for some higher intensity workouts and Josh is an extreme case with only running 2-3% at higher HR. That being said, I don't think high intensity is needed for many athletes to improve their race times, especially for endurance races of a marathon and beyond, where almost all energy comes from our aerobic systems. Most endurance athletes are poorly developed aerobicly and can benefit a lot from mostly low intensity runs. Just a few thoughts. Have fun out there on your runs Ed. Cheers
I've started the slower running at a lower HR, and its slow, but I understand that I will progress. My question is how do you know that you can sustain a faster pace during a marathon when not training at that pace? I'm enjoying the training approach though and thanks for introducing me to it.
Nice work! Here is my favorite long run that's a great test to see if you're able to maintain a faster goal pace during a marathon: ruclips.net/video/OFDh680xzh0/видео.html&t
I'd run a half ~6-7-8 weeks before your actual marathon (or earlier than that if you want). The point of that half is not to go all-out, the point is exactly to answer your question. So I would run the first half somewhat conservatively. You DON'T want to crash midway because you started too fast. Let people pass you early on. Just start you watch, stick to your pace and do your thing for half the race. Then have a plan to increase the pace. Perhaps to km 10-14 at some higher pace. Pay lots of attention into how you feel - if you do have a cardio watch, do use it. Then have a plan to increase a little more maybe for 14-19km. For the last little while, do whatever you want. Maybe try to finish slightly higher than your planned marathon pace, to get a feel for how you feel with that amount of work done going that speed. So if you think you can run say your marathon @ 3h30, but you're not sure. You half would be 1h45, so 5 min/km pace. I would start it for the 1st half maybe 5:20. Then you could do 5:10, then 5 (or just skip directly to 5 min/km, it's not an exact science, the point is to understand how you react). For those last 2 km, you might wanna try going less than 5min/km, say 4:45/4:50 or something, see if you can take. Pay attention to how you feel in those different phases of the race. That's really the key. Then if you have the data (hr etc.) to look at after all the better.
How can the pace you run at be accurate to predict a race time if you train on hills and race a flat race? Or vice versa? I feel like HR would be a better predictor. I mostly train on hilly trails and will race a flat marathon on roads so I guess this calculator wouldn't work for me.
136 Miles and best is 2:28 marathon somethings wrong far on your speed end. Great elite runners run from low 95-120 miles a week and they break 2:10 However I do agree with building aerobic base of low heart rate running and thumb rule of 8% speed work.
Do you think it possible to run sub 3hr marathon running 40 to 50 miles per week with low heart rate or do you really need run mileage in addition to low heart rate?
great episode, really enjoyed it. just wondering what his general advice would be for the 2 weeks or 1 week prior to the marathon would be. would he still be bashing out 17K a day?
I just watched a video that disagreed with this, saying to get a sub 130 half, you DO need that speed work- specifically not even intervals, he was referring to the more traditional stuff such as tempo runs and long runs at a decent pace, rather than, eg. scaling with the 130 half 9 min / pace.
There are many ways to Rome, this is one of them. Main message is that you don't need a lot of speedwork to get faster. Slowing down and running more miles at lower intensity is a great way to increase your running speed, especially for longer distances like HM or Full marathon
I hope someone help me here , I quitted smoking after 20 years of smoking and I'm a heavy guy (30kgs overweight) , I have a treadmill if I run with a heart rate only then I would have to run at 3km/hr speed to maintain less than 145 HR , now I can run 30mins but usually I run at 4km/hr *I know it is not much at all* but my average hear rate is 150-170 in those 30mins after the warmup. so should I lower the speed and increase the time ??. ((I'm calling it a RUN but in reality it is almost like a slow jogg but it is so hard ^_^))
At 54 minutes, you and your guest were talking about drinking milk. Milk dairy , none of that is good for humans. that’s for baby cows. Let your guest know if he drops the milk. He will do even better. I love you show, love your videos. great information. I am just returning back to running with my 21-year-old son. I am in my 60s and slow runs, when I get there, Sound great . I think I will get a chest heart monitor. I do tend to go too fast, even though it’s still very slow lol. At the moment I’m still walking and running. 👋🏻🇨🇦 Chris
I wonder how this method would work for an athlete training for Ironman triathlon. Due to the long bike distance in the IM it requires lots of bike mileage in training resulting in lots of fatigue in the legs. Would the algorithm be predictive of the the IM marathon time?
@@FlorisGierman No you don't have to run the route. Just create the route and when you are finished hover over the estimated moving time with your mouse and it will show your average pace for the last four weeks which is what it uses to predict your moving time for that route.
Best advice I read on running was from George Sheehan who said you are an experiment of one. So find what works for YOU. Some might thrive on slower running .others might not.
Except, that is not the case with slow running. The science of slow running is pretty solid. Guarantee you will see improvements if you do it. Speed work, threshold runs etc put loads of strain on the neuro-muscular system so you won't be able to train hard for too long before injuries start to occur. Those workouts are important but they should only make up 10-20% of your training load. Easy Running allows you to do more running that builds your aerobic capacity and promote mitrochodrial density without as much risk of injury. Sheehan was right to an extent however there are some universal truths to training for marathons/distance running.
Maybe for ultramarathon 5% speed session will definitely do but for marathon down to 5k is not enough unless you are really genetically gifted. Rule of specificity proves that you should train race specific pace to get accustomed on that pace that you will run on race day
That's what I don't get. If I'm running with a low heart rate. How will I get faster? Do I keep running at that 1 40 heart rate and just naturally my time will start to drop? I feel like if I was to keep running at that heart rate the pace would stay the same and the time would never drop.
You're improving aerobically so over time you'll become a more efficient fat burning and you can run faster at the same HR. Here is a 30 page PDF that explains this concept in much more detail: extramilest.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Sub3hourmarathon-Extramilest.pdf
@@FlorisGierman well this method absolutely sucks LOL I've decided to give this a try and completely commit to it. Of course I do feel like I'm walking sometimes I'm going uphill I might as well be LOL it is very hard to understand but I should trust the process. I'm 31/180/5'11 husband 2 little boys. played football and track and still some soccer in my life 26.2x2 /4:37( both marathons we're at about 8:37 till 13.1 then cramped up and dog fight till the end finished with around 10:37) 13.1x2/1:45 I'm probably a solid 8min miler. Most of my runs are around 3-7mi. Depending how I feel or with work out. 1. I'm currently not training for anyting probably until August or December. But until then with this method. How many miles should I be starting out? A few months before my training begins what I did was 3 miles almost every day for one week then I would go up to 4 MI almost every day for the next week just to get my body a custom to the weekly mileage. 2. Sadly I was just so used to going by Pace. Thinking if I can stick hard to 8 Minute paces and slowly increase the miles and it just then maybe that's how I would get fast. Makes me sad that that's not the case for me I can do it but just probably wouldn't hold up during a training program. If you're able to reply I would thank you for your help. I don't have running friends or really anybody to run with so most of my 4 a.m. runs I'm by myself. I wish I was somebody's guinea pig or experiment LOL thank you for all the advice and I do enjoy a lot of your videos you ask a lot of questions that are definitely people like me wondering
@@CharlZard19 you're not alone! Join our Facebook Group with 1700+ runners from 39 countries, all going through the same experiences: facebook.com/groups/209003219602686 Great questions to ask right there, plenty of supportive runners helping each other out on this journey.
This’s one of the best video I have seen in a long time I’m very impressed with all the data and how they break everything down!!
Stoked to hear that Juan. The data was definitely eye opening. His website www.jset.run has a lot more detailed info about the data as well, check it out if you haven't already. Thanks!
This works because it is one of the ironies of life. That which is hard (slowing down) is almost always that which is needed. Anybody can go out and run hard and fast because that is what is enjoyable...that is what is fun. The hard part is seeing if you can run slow. Can you mentally handle running slow. Can your ego deal with it. Can you admit you have to run slow because your not in the shape you assumed you were. Your having to run slow for a reason. That is hard. That is not enjoyable. That is where the struggles come in. Running slow is easy so why is it so hard. The human ego.
Running slow is not hard.
You put it very well in words brother
it’s not ego, your whole form changes when you deliberately slow down instead of letting your body run at its own comfortable pace. it’s a nice idea but it’s complete nonsens
Lol, no this works because Zone 2 is the most efficient heart rate zone for developing mitochondrial efficiency and lactate clearing, not some nonsense about ego.
Lol, no this works because Zone 2 is the most efficient heart rate zone for developing mitochondrial efficiency and lactate clearing, not some nonsense about ego.
I have been doing this for years , I am 62 and have found that doing speed work around 10 to 20 percent helps trigger the speed to come. Run a nice slow 2 km warmup 10 km at maffetone 180 minus age then throw in a 2km 6min/km speed pace then warm down.
Great interview! This is concept of Maximum Aerobic Function is so critical for all endurance athletes yet discarded because it is so simple. I enjoy seeing an athlete take this concept to such fast times supported with simplicity of approach and attention to details. Epic video! Thank you both for putting this together.
Well said Coach Robb, glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for letting us know!
🏃♀️🏃♀️🏃♀️
Doesn’t seem like he’s specifically referring to max aerobic capacity - he places as much viability in short intense workouts, and specifically says in this video you can substitute speed for distance. His premise of taking your average pace over the previous 8 weeks regardless of the proportion of speed v endurance seems quite unconventional, but interesting to see so much detail he has provided on it.
what about the idea that have to condition ur body to handle crashing down on one foot 180 times a minute and learn to coordinate ur movements is where a lot of the gains come from as well as.
I've watched many of these podcasts more than once. This episode is quickly becomming a favourite of mine. There's so much great info here. Today's take away - checking my HR after a hard 5km race to get an idea of my max racing HR. I'm doing a 5km time trial this Saturday and I am interested in learning more re my max HR.
Excellent, glad to hear that !
i'm hoping the race predictor is correct. the numbers are encouraging
Very similar to Arthur Lydiard's philosophy. Build a huge aerobic base for endurance and 'tirelessness'. Also helps avoid injury and burnout, therefore enabling more consistent high mileage training
absolutely!
I have already watched this 3 times ahah. Such an enlightening interview, congrats to you both, Floris for asking the right questions and really leaving Josh the time to give insightful answers.
Lots of info to take in, thanks so much!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Lydiard said " It's not the distance that kills you, it's the speed" Great video Floris. Thank you
Lydiard was talking about the speed training of his day. He has "non-aerobic" work in his base phases and would issue brutal workouts at the right time.
Dr. Ernst van Aaken is the father of the slow distance . Hé vallen the training from Lydiard “rushing “
He called
Wow. This was a great interview. Floris - great questions. I learned a lot and will be applying this to my next marathon.
Very interesting and unusual approach to marathon training, but the fact that it yields results is essentially not very surprising. Bottom line, dude consistently puts in about 20 hours worth of traning every week. Albeit on low intensity, that amount of training is going to have effects on the system. Most semi-competitive (or even straight up ambitious) do not put in even half of that amount of weekly training. Let's not forget that the marathon is mainly an aerobic event, all he is doing is maximizing his aerobic potential.
Having said that, a bit of conservative quality work in the weeks leading up to the marathon probably wouldn't hurt.
I just set a PB Best in the marathon running a sub 3 by training for a 100k, lots of easy slow miles. Running not racing the 100k (needing to get a western states qualifier in) and then in 6 weeks turning it around and working on getting fast for a marathon. With this I wonder if I even needed the 6 weeks, but I think you need to get some race specific focus down in the few weeks before the race almost no matter the distance.
Yet another fascinating video...another athlete who has got impressive results with minimal “speed work”. Thanks Floris and keep them coming!
Norman Johnstone appreciate you watching it. Happy to help spread the word about low HR and minimal speedwork. Several exciting other videos in the works
Just stumbled upon this going through older interviews (thank you for this great channel!). Somehow the Tanda model feels flawed and here’s a simple thought experiment to illustrate my point:
Runner A does 10x500 m runs a day at 3:00 pace. That’s 35 km per week at 3:00 average.
Runner B does 10x500 m intervals daily with a 500 m jog at 6:00 pace after ever interval. That’s 10 km total in 45 minutes, so 4:30 pace. So 70 km per week at that average pace.
Who would run the faster marathon? I’d say B.
If I fill in the calculator for me being runner A, the predicted time is 2:43:27. For B it’s 3:04:25…
Adding that other work affects the formula I’d imagine.
As a 1:55 800, 8:38 3k, 14:59 5k, 2:36 26.2 with only 2 months of training; I've never messed around with a heart rate training program but I can vouch for slower runs with a mix of the bottom ends of aerobic runs to everything else. From here on out I am living in a very hilly area in El Paso Texas living at 4,000 feet where the weather is hawt. Im tired of being very tired every third day, so I'm going back to my old days except while throwing some accelerations and a cross training day with a every other week 3 mile tempo. I was running in college 2-3 times a day around 110-120 miles and I went off to run my faster 8k around 25:36 with many days being run with the slowest female. It really did help. As he does say. It all matters on the person and what you adapt to. The whole thing is an experiment and it all depends how bad you want it. Cheers y'all!
That's impressive Joe. How did you run a 2:36 marathon with only 2 months of training?
@@FlorisGierman well. I wasn't intentionally planning to run a marathon and I never run based off of heart rate. I only take very easy days. I guess its the same. I made sure to mix in heavy volume and ins and outs along with very long runs on Sundays along with swimming, altitude running, and 2 mile repeats at marathon pace on the track. Thats predominantly the training though.
@@josephkubiak308 nice! sounds like it worked well for you!
Makes me wonder if Josh could benefit at this stage now, with some speed work to even go faster than his PB at this time. Comes a time when you need to change things up, to move forward. Perhaps a few more % speed runs but still an overall amount of easy running of course.
This is awesome. I’m a one meal per day runner. I eat dinner at about 6pm. It’s a HUGE dinner (about 2500 calories), but I run during my lunch hour every day. I feel great, and I did my first marathon in March at 3:37 with no refueling. I felt great. Might have been able to go faster, but I didn’t want to over exert myself on the first time out. Next year, I’m aiming for a sub 3... might be too lofty a goal, but I’m running about 40-50 miles per week at the moment, and keeping my HR at 143 (I’m 42, and healthy). So far, so good. I’m hoping to get my milage up to about 60-70 miles/week. I think I’ll start doing a morning run in addition to the lunchtime one.
This video is exactly what I needed to see. Thank you so much, gentlemen! 😁👍🏻🏃💪🏻
You're hardcore! How was it for you to transition from a regular eating schedule to one big meal a day? Nice work on your runs. The increase in training volume should definitely help bring your marathon time down further as well. Glad you enjoyed the video, thanks!
Hello. I'm also a one meal a day runner, I eat around 6pm and train just before I eat. I eat a big meal and I eat a carnivore diet. I love fasted running, it's so much better. I've done two half marathons taking no energy or even water during the race. I'm not on your level but I'm thinking of giving the marathon a try.
@@beatingobesity2410 interesting to hear more and more people around me doing some type of intermittent fasting or even one meal a day. I would highly recommend taking in water though, there is no need to let your heart rate go higher because of thicker blood, especially on races, marathons etc. Have fun out there on your runs, thanks for sharing!
Strong man ...keep going you are doing very well 😇
I had to start the intermittent fasting because I was on cholesterol meds, a sleep apnea machine, and couldn’t workout without hurting myself. I started one meal per day in late September of 2018, and didn’t start running until December. I gave myself plenty of time to acclimate before I added anything physical, but I lost so much weight (55 lbs) and get so good that I thought I should give it a try. Since then, I’m a running junkie. I research everything I can about form and self care (stretching/rolling/diet), and I’m considering the ultra marathon world soon. I’ve started running once in the morning, and once during my lunch hour, to try to get more miles under my belt per week. I’ve never felt so good, am off the meds and apnea machine, and am excited to see how far I can go.
Also, as a theme park musician, I now have the energy and stamina to play better and enjoy myself more. Life is just better with the diet and running, and Floris’ channel has made it even better. The Maffetone approach is amazing!! I keep getting stronger and faster as a runner, and have been injury free the whole time (knock on wood).
One of the most informative videos on the platform. Also, thanks for the calculator!
love this video thank you i train with low heart rate many times a weeks including low heart rate on bike to increase my mileage and its made a huge difference no injuries no pain recovery fast.....just perfect and always have great race result this way....occasionally a quick 5km but all easy runs is great way to improve time thanks
I'm so excited by this video. So I'm trying to train for my first 1/2 marathon in only six weeks and all I have to do is slow gradually increasing mileage. Coincidently enough that was already my plan because I didn't wan to risk an injury by speed work outs. This changes everything about running training. You can even tell if your training enough by using the Race predictor? Wow. Life's good! Thank you!
I have jogged for over thirty years. Four months ago I started running this Maffetone model at 114-120 HR since I am 66 and the pace was 13 minutes a mile (five minutes slower per mile than my top speed) and sometimes having to walk to get the heart rate down. I see no improvements after four months, running four times a week at 45 minutes to an hour at a time. Thus, be forewarned that not all people respond to this model. The videos Floris and others show are the success stories for young athletes. I am coming to think that we need something different and more research oriented for the older runner.
Jon, I think if you incorporate a progressive runs from the 114bpm up to your threshold HR, and also spend 1 workout a week with a main set that has some intervals at threshold but warm up and cool down at those low recovery rates, you will see some improvement. Also, 4 months is just about the beginning of the time it would take to start seeing any kind of difference. I'm 42 and have been running for 4 years. At this point, I cant say that I am faster than before by my aerobic base is night and day different than it was a year ago.
@@tonyhuebel483 Thanks for your feedback. It is reassuring to know that four months is when progress starts to show up. And it is interesting to learn that aerobic fitness increased, but speed did not. One question: is threshold HR my top heart rate?
Jon Frederickson, threshold is basically what you can hold for an hour. There are ways to calculate it or test for it. As a younger athlete one could test their max HR and base zones on that. If you have done any races you can get a general idea and extrapolate based on duration
@@tonyhuebel483 Thanks so much!
From the Maffetone website: "The 180 Formula may need to be further individualized for people over the age of 65. For some of these athletes, up to 10 beats may have to be added for those in category (d) in the 180 Formula, and depending on individual levels of fitness and health. This does not mean 10 should automatically be added, but that an honest self-assessment is important." (category (d) are people that have been training for more then 2 years).
He's absolutely correct about the fasting, I've started the fast from 8pm to 1pm, so no breakfast, 1st week was tough was fantasizing about bacon, toast etc. But after the first week I was managing easily and stopped feeling hungry.
so excited about this little new "discovery" of mine. Been pushing myself hard always on the verge of a big injury seeing little improvement. Will definitely try a slower pace and more kms.thanks.
I find this podcast awesome. The notion of devoting more time whilst trying to avoid injuries by not running low volume and really fast/fast too often makes so much sense for a decent Marathon. Given that the Marathon is 99% Aerobic , Aerobic Metabolism runs "With Oxygen". Ideally the Marathon pace hr is well under the 1hr L.T.H.R (perhaps 8-12bpm being the 1st half of Marathon). Thoroughly enjoyed this podcast.
LOVE this interview Floris!
This just blow my mind, you got a new subscriber
Happy to hear that!
I would venture that cycling with hills is quite a dynamic tension creating excercise. Cycling is a perfect compliment to run training for generating strength and speed. Muscle fatigue is only one dimension. There is also core strength and posture. The physiological benefit of strength training pays loads of dividends.
This is all very interesting. I train for Obstacle races at varying diatances and terrain, so cross training is essential. I started running 5 years ago @8 min/mile pace running 1 mile a day. Then year 2 I ran 20 minutes a day. Now I train 1 to 2 hours a day and 1 3 to 5 hour day a week. I have breakthroughs every year. Last year I ran 9 miles/15k a day for 30 days to see if I could. I'm 38 now and just getting started. Cheers. It is true that training is different for everyone. I like to have my training change and vary quite often.
Nice to hear an example of someone as starting times and what they're up to now.
As a beginner I'm always wondering how much faster I could get, but a lot of coaches/authors/runners never really say where they were compared to where they are.
how are you progressing? i'm a lazy person so love the maffetone method. even if not in the mood, not much of an excuse not to get out walking/slow running. i don't mind doing strength work a few times a week which seems perfect for this method. I did 2 half hour runs yesterday and one the previous day. not sore today but feeling generally run down which i'm not sure related as sleep and diet not very good. i'm hoping to have the discipline to get the 2 slow runs in a day and everything else sorts out around that. try to stretch the major muscle groups at least once a day. Atm my strength work is lunges and calf raises.
@@nikitaw1982 I personally never committed to the pure low HR method. I actually enjoy the burn etc of higher intensity.
Had an 9 month hiatus after a stress fracture. Been consistently getting 35km a week I'm of 80:20 since November in prep for a half marathon in march before stepping up for full marathon in August
@@macfin4862 i like the high intensity burn stuff as well. I think i have to get that in cross training atm. PS my brother was good at 400 and 800 and cross counry. He said stand on one leg and cyle the other as fast as you can like B skips i guess. I like doing that just slowly. i did a few rounds today with ankle weights just for something to do to strengthen hip flexors and get lower abs and standing leg hip muscles all coordinated. I think if get shin splints, i would do that plus cross training. All the best for August!! PS i'm in love with the S for sam S-force matrix cross trainer. Only a few gyms have them but the first few times ur thighs scream and almost up chuck lol. i did 3 times a week and by third week i couldn't get that passing out from effort or thigh burn sensation...I want to use that as staple to strength legs and cross train. I was built for rugby players with joint issues. I don't know why not more popular. every gym near me has a dozen matrix treadmills, swap one for one of these..PS do you think rucking trails is good cross training?
where is the line for adaptation... will brisk walking with a heart rate of 120bpm add on to this volume? -- + running 3 x a week . I have one crappy knee so struggle to run alot .
Also just curious about where one could get maximum adaption will minimal injury risk .
I'd like to go back to that method one day. I tried it for a couple of months and noticed an improvement in my heart rate, but also noticed runs started to feel "easy", in that I knew I wouldn't have to run uphill because my heart rate would go up, so in the end my mind kinda started to panic a bit because I thought I was losing what I had gained. I guess it's a matter of patience and believing in the method.
Eli 💯 you answered your own observations well right there!
Can you please talk about issues w/ older runner having to run really low heart passes if based on age? I would like to hear from older competitive runners and what heart rate they train in for MAF. Thanks
Hi Floris, thanks for the video, really interesting content. My thing with the MAF method (I don’t claim to know everything about it) is the time commitment needed to engage with the sort of low heart rate running required. I know you discuss him running up to 120 mile weeks (roughly) for his 2:28 but I’ve run three sub 2:45 marathons, all off a maximum of about 75 miles per week. I’m fully aware that to take the next step I would need to increase my weekly mileage but it’s just so difficult to do that when you have a job / family etc. What’s your take on the idea that running quicker (tempo; long reps on track etc) gives you more ‘bang for your buck’ if you’re not able to get up to that 100 miles per week?
Great points right there, I'm fully in the same boat with you. I'd like to improve from my 2:44 but there is no way I can run anywhere near the milage Josh is running. He only runs 2-3% high HR. When you look at Jason and Jonathan, they do more higher HR workouts than 2-3%. Even guys like Mark Allen still did a few days a week higher HR workouts. In your case, I would get that % up higher to 10, 15, 20% max and see how your body handles it and how you progress aerobically. Hope that helps
I would be very curious to see some data/science on this. I hear the advice on easy running from people like Bobby McGee and have no doubt it works for his runners, but running is basically their full time job. For those of us who can't commit to that, I wonder how various ratios of low vs. high-intensity workouts affect endurance, speed, and injury rate.
Another aspect I think about is form vs pace. In the video, Josh talked about doing his slow runs at 4:47 min/ km (7:41 mi). That's fast enough to still have a form that basically resembles good racing form (in terms of cadence/turnover, stride, etc.). For me to run at such a low heart rate, I would have to run at closer to 10:00 min/mile, which would result in a very different form, more of a shuffle/jog. Will that affect my ability to run with good form when I'm going faster in a race?
@@exerciserelax8719 That's an easy fix, run as slow as you can while still maintaining good turnover and form and if you need to lower the pace even more include walk breaks. Simple.
Thank you Floris, this is another great interview.
It was particularly interesting that he does not drink anything other than just water. No gels, nothing! I wonder if he can stick to this when becoming eventually faster.
Also, the idea of this Tanda marathon race prediction being so accurate surprised me.
Me too i only drink water
Hes very Fat Adapted in the Mitochondria. 220km a wk @5min/kms would be approx 12kmh x 17-18hrs a wk if he does 1 run a wk nearer marathon pace. Cheers
Thank You - great information - I have just started the HR training - i will be trying to do100% easy runs since 1 May , i am already doing fasting , usually 18 - 20 hours per day and have started some weeks ago training while fasting - Cheers guys
Can this be applied to beginner runners? I.e. he could run 6min/km at 135bpm, which is like a very fast pace for a beginner, who would be running at about 160bpm to achieve the same pace.. However if a beginner were to run at 135bpm, it would be 8 or 9min/km.. so I'm just wondering, if the low heart rate training benefits one who already has alot of running mileage or muscle power/memory/seasoned enough to run at a faster pace?
P/S It would be interesting if you also did an interview with a new beginner runner who trains with this low HR method versus the common no pain no gain training method, not just the elite runners ( my 2 cents :) )
Yup! If you want more info, read 80/20 running or check out the TED talk by stephen seiler - he talks about exactly this. I can't even run 6min/km at 160, that speed takes me to like 180 and I've been training with low heartrate and making great progress.
I'm a year late but this is a great comment!
Great episode Floris!!!! Keep going
Thanks Alexander!!
I wish you would profile more runners that don’t have a Track or Cross Country history, just ordinary folk that have gotten into running using HR training.
Thanks for your feedback. There have been several "ordinary runners" that have found a lot of benefit with HR Training. Here are 5 of them you might want to check out:
extramilest.com/blog/13-how-to-run-a-faster-marathon-with-bill-callahan/
extramilest.com/blog/how-to-improve-from-5-hour-marathon-to-sub-3-with-michael-ovens/
extramilest.com/blog/how-to-run-a-sub-3-marathon-with-jessica-kelley-and-gwen/
extramilest.com/blog/how-to-run-a-sub-3-hour-marathon-and-boston-qualifier-with-jay-motley/
extramilest.com/blog/how-to-qualify-for-the-boston-marathon-with-bobby-barker/
Cheers James!
Love this 😀 answered everything I wanted to know! Especially speed work and fasting thankyou 🙏
Thank you Floris and Josh. This was a really interesting video!
Great interview. Just learning about the MAF method as i want to start implementing it as I'm only a casual runner with no real direction . 2 things i find rather interesting here is that Josh at the time of this interview was only 23 , based on the 180 Maf his Maf should be 157 yet he is doing almost all his runs exclusively about 20bpm below his Maf heart rate with still great success . Obviously this is due to the massive amount of mileage he puts in per week . Noticed he says he runs marathon at 166bpm and rising . This must be a shock to the system that usually works well below in training ??? Also quite astounded that 3 fast 5ks per week gives you the adaptation to run a 3hr marathon as per the race indicator .
Not sure if this is the correct place to ask but I dont know where else I would be able to get the answer so...what weekly mileage number do you use for the Tanda Race Predictor? Your "peak" weekly mileage and speed? Average weekly for your final month leading up to race? Average over the whole (lets say 16 week) training plan? Apologies if this is answered in the video. I did watch the whole thing....actually more than once but cant seem to remember hearing the answer. Thanks in advance.
Informative video but I think the key is his mileage rather than his average training pace. With that training load if he were to throw in an extra speedwork session or very slightly increase his pace then we'd be looking at a sub 2:20 guy.
very interesting and informative. I am pulling toward slow training too as to stay away from injuries thanks a lot
Great interview, some great info!
Thanks Gman!
Incredible podcast! That seems a little like the 'intensity points' that Jack Daneis discusses in his book. You can achieve your goal by running a lot at a slow pace or a little at a fast pace, as long as your intensity points are equivalent.
Mitochondrial density n capillaries increases your body gears for larger distance so it has to be strong. In contrast with an athlete going all out all the times n not recover or giving it body time to do the nessecary development of a powerful body which can withstand it
Very good video. But I believe it only tells half the story. Increasing your weekly mileage will certainly make you faster by building your aerobic base. But speed work such as intervals or Fartlek build your anaerobic capacity above and beyond this, enabling you to "switch it up" when necessary. I've been putting the miles in but doing no speed work. In a recent 10k I found I was breathing normally while more experienced runners around me were puffing and panting hard. Nevertheless as the race reached its end those same people puffed and panted their way into the distance ahead of me and I was unable to respond.
Hi John, glad to hear you enjoyed the video. Totally understand what you're staying. For a 10k race I'd definitely suggest doing some more speedwork, your race pace will be much higher for a 10k than on a marathon. Your normal breathing will be very beneficial for the later stages of a marathon or ultra endurance event.
Very informative vid thanks for this
Thanks for all the info, very informative! One thing I am curious about with this plan of the pace vs distance for training calculator, how would one factor in elevation into this strategy or for trails vs road etc? Also really like the emphasis on MAF
Anyhow I have questions concerning the calculator:
- Do you include warm up and cool down in your average pace, cause obviously this is going to bring the average down quite alot. Say I run 4 miles at 7 min pace but then do a cool down mile at 930. logging that cool down mile is going to bring the pace down greatly?
- Secondly, there must be a limit to this idea of just run- i.e. that , as discussed in the video, you can do it two ways, run less but at the right pace , to achieve say, a certain marathon time, or run more. Is there a limit in this calculator such as something stupid like 100-300 miles/week to get how ever miles it would equate to , much less obviously, to achieve a given marathon pace, if alot of those miles are spent at faster miles, nearer to marathon pace, than say the 100-300 miles at much slower - 9 to 11 min/miles. I mean basically does that calculator have a threshold to this,such that, e.g 200 miles a week at 11min/miles, will not give you a sub 230 marathon, or something like that? (sorry that's super long, my brains not typing succicently today).
Nggah?
I've got the same questions.
I'd love to see a follow-up, to ask Josh what made him skip low heart rate training. Looking at his Strava he's doing a lot less miles and a lot of high heart rate track sessions
Great suggestion! Will keep in mind
I agree. Trying his program now. If i maff runn I have to do 12-14hrs a week. Rubish
Hi FG! Greeting from Bangkok! Thanks for the content.
Hello there Kate, Greetings right back at you from Los Angeles. Thanks and happy running!
2.28 bloody el, that's fast man, very impressive
It is, but 250 km per week? Sub 2:30 h is absolutely possible with under 150 km per week. But than of course with speedworkout.
That’s actually kind of slow. Sub 2:10 would be fast
@@gustavopaulette3496 come on, sub 2.10 is World Class!
Thanks for this video. How I understand it is that you should be slowly increasing your aerobic volume and that will increase your pace by being able to run quicker with a lower heart rate for a longer time. Speed work is to work on form and strength and is to compliment not necessarily supplement your easy runs.
Woah this is great.
I've been starting to run commute. I'm building up to ~70k/week (if I do to & back each day). What he says really puts this into perspective. I've been thinking about doing (another) marathon after a number of years of non-marathon, but I was kinda bummed that I already had high mileage built into my commute, not necessarily the extra time to do a whole lot of extra running outside of that (and worry about injury risks if I add too much to it). Taking in what he's saying, I'm feeling more optimistic - I could just put that marathon end of the summer. That leaves quite a few months of consistent, steady mileage without the need to add much of anything to it.
Worst-case - doesn't work well for me and I just crash it at 4-4.5 hrs...
Great episode 👍
I don't understand how you run in training 4: 40 / km and suddenly you run 3: 30 / km in a race. 3:30 / km you have to be used to a whole marathon, right?
nope, you develop your aerobic system in training. During a marathon this will benefit you, that being said you will be racing faster and at a higher HR
@@FlorisGierman No you develop your aerobic ability to run slower. Training slow teaches you to race slow.
@@FlorisGierman Thanks for your great interviews. I'm sure that his aerobic system is more than strong to run long and fast. However what surprised me is that his legs can handle a marathon at 3:30 min/km. I know it is true as I've just seen his strava profile. I always thought that was necessary to have several long runs at marathon pace (or close) under your belt in order to be muscularly prepared for the marathon. Excuse my English, I'm from Spain.
Really intrigued by this approach! Does this suggest that one can technically never run at marathon race pace or faster in order to achieve a target? According to the predictor website, I can achieve a sub3 if I run 100km weekly at 4:44/km average pace. What happens if I actually never touch on sub3 marathon pace (4:15/km) and only stick to 4:44/km on all my runs. Would this actually work? Surely I wouldn't be adapted to run at 4:15/km pace on race day, no?
What a great video. I gonna break this down in a video! 🔥🔥🔥
Glad you enjoyed it! Shoot me a link once it's live, would love to see it.
Great episode
🙏
My father always told me choir important it was to work calmly and focused, then you got more. This has been experienced after 40years of running myself.
Your father is a wise man Tore! Well said
What's this dude's RHR?
Yeah I think the problem I found within the graph was that there was no total volume. So easy corrected when you starting running fast you will need to do three days. But there was no weekly limit for running 24 hours a day. This completely changes the 80/20 rule.
My question is, if I am already a very slow runner (first marathon 2 days ago at 5.36) is there still value in going slower than that? I feel going slower would just be a walk?
Great information 👍🏻🙏🏻 thanks
Glad it was helpful!
Fantastic video!! Super informative
Keep it up, love what your doing :)
Great episode and very interesting training approach: I’m wondering if same approach could be applied to shorter races
Does run slower mean that a runner should run with their heart rate kept at 180-age?
My mileage and pace in the tanda predictor are about :30 per mile slower than what I just ran in a marathon. I ran a 2:40:03 and the calculator says I should be a 2:54:27. That is insanely off!!!
Amazing.
Whats his approach on Marathon day in terms of pace/hr couldnt find it? Nice lad.
On your pace site, can you have a choice for metric or imperial. Thanks, Looks promising
Sooo great!
Thank you!!
Chi Running, MAF training and Fat adaptation: 3 pillars for success
Hi! Could those 5K's at 3:45min/km 3 times a week be done as an interval 5x1000m@3:45min/km? As for the prediction side of it?
average
For how many weeks do you need to stick to your weekly mile- / weekly pace- regimen to get the benefits in the marathon?
Wish y’all talked more about fasted running! But great interview :)
Very misleading. As someone has already mentioned, the key here was averaging 100+ miles per week. You need a mix of easy recovery running and high intensity for optimal performance.
Ed Lucas thanks for your comment and sorry to hear you found this info very misleading! I think there is a misunderstanding. Josh runs high training volume, however you don't need to run 100+ miles per week to become a faster runner. I've personally connected with many runners around the world who slowed down their pace significantly with many of them doing very little high intensity workouts, and this resulted in their best race performances so far. They didnt run 100+ miles a week, some ran maybe half that volume. Many athletes get injured frequently by training too hard. Not every athlete enjoys high intensity workouts either. I absolutely believe there is a time and place for some higher intensity workouts and Josh is an extreme case with only running 2-3% at higher HR. That being said, I don't think high intensity is needed for many athletes to improve their race times, especially for endurance races of a marathon and beyond, where almost all energy comes from our aerobic systems. Most endurance athletes are poorly developed aerobicly and can benefit a lot from mostly low intensity runs. Just a few thoughts. Have fun out there on your runs Ed. Cheers
Great video .
Almost all of the speedwork that I do is just 4xstrides/4x15 second hill sprints after some runs, and it works great for me!
Nice! Sounds like you've found something that works well for you. Keep it up!
I've started the slower running at a lower HR, and its slow, but I understand that I will progress. My question is how do you know that you can sustain a faster pace during a marathon when not training at that pace? I'm enjoying the training approach though and thanks for introducing me to it.
Nice work! Here is my favorite long run that's a great test to see if you're able to maintain a faster goal pace during a marathon: ruclips.net/video/OFDh680xzh0/видео.html&t
I'd run a half ~6-7-8 weeks before your actual marathon (or earlier than that if you want). The point of that half is not to go all-out, the point is exactly to answer your question.
So I would run the first half somewhat conservatively. You DON'T want to crash midway because you started too fast. Let people pass you early on. Just start you watch, stick to your pace and do your thing for half the race. Then have a plan to increase the pace. Perhaps to km 10-14 at some higher pace. Pay lots of attention into how you feel - if you do have a cardio watch, do use it. Then have a plan to increase a little more maybe for 14-19km. For the last little while, do whatever you want. Maybe try to finish slightly higher than your planned marathon pace, to get a feel for how you feel with that amount of work done going that speed.
So if you think you can run say your marathon @ 3h30, but you're not sure. You half would be 1h45, so 5 min/km pace. I would start it for the 1st half maybe 5:20. Then you could do 5:10, then 5 (or just skip directly to 5 min/km, it's not an exact science, the point is to understand how you react). For those last 2 km, you might wanna try going less than 5min/km, say 4:45/4:50 or something, see if you can take.
Pay attention to how you feel in those different phases of the race. That's really the key. Then if you have the data (hr etc.) to look at after all the better.
So what is that low heart rate percentage someone should train at?
How can the pace you run at be accurate to predict a race time if you train on hills and race a flat race? Or vice versa? I feel like HR would be a better predictor. I mostly train on hilly trails and will race a flat marathon on roads so I guess this calculator wouldn't work for me.
136 Miles and best is 2:28 marathon somethings wrong far on your speed end.
Great elite runners run from low 95-120 miles a week and they break 2:10
However I do agree with building aerobic base of low heart rate running and thumb rule of 8% speed work.
Do you think it possible to run sub 3hr marathon running 40 to 50 miles per week with low heart rate or do you really need run mileage in addition to low heart rate?
great episode, really enjoyed it. just wondering what his general advice would be for the 2 weeks or 1 week prior to the marathon would be. would he still be bashing out 17K a day?
Of course he’s not! He would taper so his legs are fresh just like every other endurance athlete
I just watched a video that disagreed with this, saying to get a sub 130 half, you DO need that speed work- specifically not even intervals, he was referring to the more traditional stuff such as tempo runs and long runs at a decent pace, rather than, eg. scaling with the 130 half 9 min / pace.
There are many ways to Rome, this is one of them. Main message is that you don't need a lot of speedwork to get faster. Slowing down and running more miles at lower intensity is a great way to increase your running speed, especially for longer distances like HM or Full marathon
@@FlorisGierman mmmm that doesn't really help, how slow? say I run hm 650 pace, is 'slow miles' 8 min pace 830, is 910 too slow to get any benefits?
his strava is off. is he okay?
Can you post a link to the website regarding the marathon prediction calculator discussed?
Thank you.
ok, just found it... tandaracepredictor.com/
@@jxm4911 perfect
What about muscle memory for faster paces, hence why we do speed work?
They are dodging it because they have a very narrow view of what running is.
I hope someone help me here , I quitted smoking after 20 years of smoking and I'm a heavy guy (30kgs overweight) , I have a treadmill if I run with a heart rate only then I would have to run at 3km/hr speed to maintain less than 145 HR , now I can run 30mins but usually I run at 4km/hr *I know it is not much at all* but my average hear rate is 150-170 in those 30mins after the warmup. so should I lower the speed and increase the time ??. ((I'm calling it a RUN but in reality it is almost like a slow jogg but it is so hard ^_^))
At 54 minutes, you and your guest were talking about drinking milk. Milk dairy , none of that is good for humans. that’s for baby cows. Let your guest know if he drops the milk. He will do even better.
I love you show, love your videos. great information.
I am just returning back to running with my 21-year-old son. I am in my 60s and slow runs, when I get there, Sound great .
I think I will get a chest heart monitor. I do tend to go too fast, even though it’s still very slow lol. At the moment I’m still walking and running.
👋🏻🇨🇦 Chris
Ok sounds good but if I run faster my HR will increase dose it matter ?
Love that he doesn’t eat gels!
Great info - thanks
I wonder how this method would work for an athlete training for Ironman triathlon. Due to the long bike distance in the IM it requires lots of bike mileage in training resulting in lots of fatigue in the legs. Would the algorithm be predictive of the the IM marathon time?
Jeffery Arnier, Sr. Mark Allen trained this way and it worked very well for him.
Jeffery Arnier, Sr. I coach people for triathlon using this method. Well similar. Feel free to email me. Pduncan1984@gmail.com
If you build a route on Strava it gives you your average pace for the last four weeks for all workouts.
Lincoln Zondi would you have to run that same route for this to show or can be any workout on any route? Thanks
@@FlorisGierman No you don't have to run the route. Just create the route and when you are finished hover over the estimated moving time with your mouse and it will show your average pace for the last four weeks which is what it uses to predict your moving time for that route.
@@bullionforex good to know, I'll check it out. Thanks!
Best advice I read on running was from George Sheehan who said you are an experiment of one. So find what works for YOU. Some might thrive on slower running .others might not.
Except, that is not the case with slow running. The science of slow running is pretty solid. Guarantee you will see improvements if you do it. Speed work, threshold runs etc put loads of strain on the neuro-muscular system so you won't be able to train hard for too long before injuries start to occur. Those workouts are important but they should only make up 10-20% of your training load. Easy Running allows you to do more running that builds your aerobic capacity and promote mitrochodrial density without as much risk of injury. Sheehan was right to an extent however there are some universal truths to training for marathons/distance running.
Maybe for ultramarathon 5% speed session will definitely do but for marathon down to 5k is not enough unless you are really genetically gifted. Rule of specificity proves that you should train race specific pace to get accustomed on that pace that you will run on race day
There are different ways to train that resonate and work well for different people. Not everyone enjoys or can handle high intensity running well
That's what I don't get. If I'm running with a low heart rate. How will I get faster? Do I keep running at that 1 40 heart rate and just naturally my time will start to drop? I feel like if I was to keep running at that heart rate the pace would stay the same and the time would never drop.
You're improving aerobically so over time you'll become a more efficient fat burning and you can run faster at the same HR. Here is a 30 page PDF that explains this concept in much more detail: extramilest.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Sub3hourmarathon-Extramilest.pdf
@@FlorisGierman well this method absolutely sucks LOL I've decided to give this a try and completely commit to it. Of course I do feel like I'm walking sometimes I'm going uphill I might as well be LOL it is very hard to understand but I should trust the process. I'm 31/180/5'11 husband 2 little boys. played football and track and still some soccer in my life 26.2x2 /4:37( both marathons we're at about 8:37 till 13.1 then cramped up and dog fight till the end finished with around 10:37) 13.1x2/1:45 I'm probably a solid 8min miler. Most of my runs are around 3-7mi. Depending how I feel or with work out.
1. I'm currently not training for anyting probably until August or December. But until then with this method. How many miles should I be starting out? A few months before my training begins what I did was 3 miles almost every day for one week then I would go up to 4 MI almost every day for the next week just to get my body a custom to the weekly mileage.
2. Sadly I was just so used to going by Pace. Thinking if I can stick hard to 8 Minute paces and slowly increase the miles and it just then maybe that's how I would get fast. Makes me sad that that's not the case for me I can do it but just probably wouldn't hold up during a training program. If you're able to reply I would thank you for your help. I don't have running friends or really anybody to run with so most of my 4 a.m. runs I'm by myself. I wish I was somebody's guinea pig or experiment LOL thank you for all the advice and I do enjoy a lot of your videos you ask a lot of questions that are definitely people like me wondering
@@CharlZard19 you're not alone! Join our Facebook Group with 1700+ runners from 39 countries, all going through the same experiences: facebook.com/groups/209003219602686 Great questions to ask right there, plenty of supportive runners helping each other out on this journey.