Truss vs. Handcut Roofs: Expert Builders Weigh In
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- Опубликовано: 1 июл 2024
- Matt Risinger discusses the differences between truss roofs and handcut roofs with experts Bill Wood and Tim Uhler, better known as Awesome Framers. Matt starts by introducing Bill, who has been working with him for 15-16 years, and Tim, a seasoned framer from the Pacific Northwest. They delve into their extensive experience with both roofing methods, highlighting their benefits and challenges.
Tim Uhler's RUclips
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We are in the Midwest and I have an older guy working for me that worked in a truss shop years ago and is excellent at hand cut rafters, our install time is the same either way for us. So we go buy the job, if we are doing an addition or trying to match the existing house we hand cut. If it is all new and scheduling allows we will go with a truss. That’s basically how we go about it, keeping in mind some of the points you mentioned like HVAC as well
Buildinf a super high energy efficient custom home. Unvented roof, no ductinf, no perforations through the roof..Hand cut with a beautiful massive glulam beam in the center giving me a clear span of 38 x 32. No interior structural walls. Even the truss company told me to go with hand cut.
Structural engineer here. Many trusses need "continuous lateral bracing" (CLB) to meet engineering requirements. Installing the CLB system could easily eat up half a unit of 2x4s plus another day of labor. And then your attic is criss-crossed BOTH ways with obstacles. On most jobs I've inspected, the CLBs were installed wrong or omitted altogether. Bad news.
I am a timber framer and partial to hand cut rafters over trusses.
Where I am in British columbia, Canada, the snow load requires roofs to withstand 100 pounds per square foot. And truss manufacturers tend to cheap out on their trusses and call out for a ton of bracing and reinforcement of the trusses they deliver. And that ends of taking a lot of time of walking through the trusses and finishing the work that someone else could have done. So it takes a lot of time and costs extra to use trusses I find.
Tim is indeed super awesome. I find myself searching FHB and JLC back issues to read his articles.
Pre-engineered cold formed steel roof truss fabricator and installer here...I don't do residential but...trusses are the way to go! Obviously, hand cut studs are not an option for 100' spans.
I did trusses for my house, but it is a barndominium 40x104. Truss crew was in and out in a half day. It was nice to just send the blueprints to the truss company and not have to think about it again, very simple and cost effective roof
Love Tim's channel.
Have had both, as a homeowner, both are good. First home was custom, architect designed, had some framing issues. Soffit was too low and mater bedroom windows couldn’t open fully. Staircase wall was 2x3, no room. All windows didn’t open properly because of brick installed too close to windows. The other was a tract home, walls and trusses made in a factory. Best home ever had, still living there 20 years later, with no problems.
Sounds like your problem was the architect, not the rafters.
With my 43 years as a carpenter . Yes .. sometimes there are no advantages in a custom build . sometimes there are . In my experience , Never have I found a set of prints without errors , Some with amazingly signifcant errors that to the lay person is no big deal . It'll wreak havoc on the job , fingers pointing everywhere and excuses flowing and in the end it is better with a proven , repeated design that is tried and true . I ended my career in 2022 as a carpenter . . All the way from hand-driven crackerboxes and ending with front cover and National Homebuilders Award 2014 for homes over 3 million dollars . Some pre-fabs and tracts come out better than The Biltmore's and has fascinated me at times , Then again . I have seen McMansions built so horrribly that it defied every code in the book . My biggest wory for the future carpenters is losing the art to slap and run , losing the creativity , losing the ability to master woodworking , problem sloving , math and losing the joy of what I found in the trade.. For the carpenters . Being turned into a robotic drone with a nailgun and no understanding about what is being built .
I'm 54 and I don't know anybody younger than me that can cut a roof anymore. When I was in my early twenties I worked for some badass guys like Chewy. My mentor could cut six houses out ahead of us in two day and then the four or five of us would come behind and stack those roofs in 3 to 4 days. It was sweet.
One of my biggest pet peeves of trusses is the delivery process and individuals handling them and damaging them and never repairing them properly before installation and or all the other trades come in and chop them apart to make their stuff work and often ruin the Integrity of the roof structure. Cutting in Rafters is always and will always be a better roof than trusses. Trusses were designed for production only. It's a shame they took the skill out of the trade cuz these two guys here are very rare with their Crews nowadays. I did my roof time in Northern California, I'm in Arizona now and if you can cut a Roof in you are making bank...
Good stuff guys
No one is interested in roof framing is the problem. As a younger carp, roof cutting is the most interesting part of the trade by far. And it's not hard to pre cut a roof package for a 2000 sqft house in a day if you have the cut list sorted out already. Chewy probably spent 2hrs the night before drafting the cut lists, setting you guys up for production success. I'd be curious to know if the full stack included ceiling joists in that time? If so, you guys were flying.
@@andrewanderson4281 full stack did not include ceiling joists. Homes were closer to 3000 as ft.
My mentor would pull dimensions on the ground and with the construction master calculator would figure out every single piece to cut himself on site. We stocked all the material in front of all the houses he cut pieces we stacked parts and then would absolutely kill it for several days other Crews would do a complete house at a time . We'd still beat them by at least a house at the end of the week my mentor was freaking awesome at roofs and I never learned as well as him. It was just awesome to be a part of the process.
Thanks for the info Matt! 😃👍🏼👊🏼😊
Nice strong close out, guys. Great breakdown on the topic. For my own home, I would love a nice open attic.
If you have ever built in seismic 3 or 4 zones you will understand why cutting in a roof is better. I've put solar on over 2 dozen HEB Grocery stores and a distribution center in Texas. Crazy hurricane winds. I've never built roofs in Texas but I would insist on rafters over trusses.
There is a reason anyone 40 or younger has only seen it it custom homes.
On the topic of roofs and vented vs conditioned. Joe Lstiburek has a lecture on how vented roofs are that much more simple and pain free. Obviously moving your mechanicals out of the attic is an issue when you don't have a basement but wouldn't a utility closet inside the house be optimal in that situation?
ruclips.net/video/Ld8pzIu45F8/видео.html
I think we need to stop building homes with ventilated attics.. For all the reasons you mentioned, PLUS,,,, a ventilated attic is like a match waiting to light. I recently saw a house go up in flames from the house next door that was on fire.. The fire was literally sucking into the roof of the second house from the first. Yes, Florida is building homes that close together now!!! Not building that full envelope is INSANE, if you ask me!!!!
The Home Performance channel has a video 'somewhere' in their catalog about the ways that homes catch fire. It included information on burning cinders getting pulled into attic vents, and what building techniques need to be used to prevent it.
My HVAC guy just said he's not integrated in conditioned attic spaces. After all this time, there is still no consensus. Frustrating.
We do Renovations, I have seen SO MANY gussets pretty much pulled loose at the ridge, and the second truss, (or the first one that is not sitting on the exterior wall) is sagging 1/2 to 3/4” in 20-25 years. That is for residential homes, 32’ and under spans. Yes some stick built sags, but if they do, they are not to code specs, the trusses sag, when at least or ABOVE code.
You basically lose an entire story/half story with a truss roof system vs ratfters. That is the cheapest space in a house to build on a per square foot basis and can make for a great office on the gable end or add dormers for a bonus room.
Except now you have to install floor framing. But I get your thoughts.
@@mojodojo5533 not “free”, but cheaper than alternative methods (basement, bigger floor plates, etc) for additional square footage.
Theres a video somewhere on YT showing a truss roof on fire and a hand cut roof on fire and a stack of blocks on top of them. The truss roof lasted only a few minutes. The hand cut roof last like an hour.
Hard to find many RUclipsrs talking about that, especially if they are sponsored by a truss company or flimsy IJoists
Matt ! You are a great salesman!!!
I like that these guys are experienced. This is The Real World . I started in boatbuilding in 1979 and carpentry in 1982 . Worked in the big cities to the mountains of The Appalachians , . Cracker box , townhomes to the insanely compex and highly detailed , Truss and stick and everything in between . I wanted to be a baddie and was Gifted with the talent .Even asked in 1993 by an architect to write a book about residential construction . Might be able to now since I laid up and dying . So many truths here with these guys . In my experience . stick framing baddies looked down on truss. Much like what trim carpenters think about framers . or at least in thier quiver when they can't install a piece of baseboard . . These guys are refesjing to listen to. . In the end what matters is The House . not how much you made on it , But how much joy you had building it and building it that ot will be here for 100's of years . Thee most important is making sure you buld your best because it's someone''s dream . It's thier home . The greatest tool , method or approach in building anything .. It all came through you . By God
Matt, you need to do an episode on truss uplift. I see it all over the place on truss homes in north Texas causing drywall seam issues where the wall and ceiling meet. I would never build a truss house. It can be mitigated if installed correctly, but nobody does.
They make drywall clips to accommodate uplift but yes glad you mentioned this issue, important to know.
Thanks for your comment as I had never heard of the issue, probably because I've lived in the deep South. It is one more reason to build conditioned attics where the top and bottom chords don't see much of a temperature and humidity difference. Exterior insulation on the roof of a conditioned attic will help even more to keep the top chord at the same temp as the bottom. My father cut the rafters for our unconditioned attic back in the 60's. It withstood the >200mph winds of the eastern eyewall of Hurricane Camille. And it had no web supports and no roof decking, only tin sheets Just a ridge beam with beefy supports. So the argument I hear here in Florida that we need roof trusses because of hurricane winds doesn't ring true with me. Still, I plan on using engineered trusses for my retirement home to save on my own labor but I shouldn't have an uplift problem for the reasons above.
What is correct installation that mitigates that?
@@machinemaker2248 Stay 18 iinches away from the partition wall ceiling screws......allows the drywall ceiling to flex.
Who has access to these level of carpenters?
I'm a remodel carpenter in one of the few densely packed cities we have in America and trusses are just a logistical nightmare (almost an impossibility) here, so GC's are basically forced to do handcut roofs. Kinda the opposite of Matt, didn't really realize what trusses were or how they worked till I helped on a buddy's job out in the suburbs a few years ago
One thing to consider is whether the hand cut roof is made from 2X material or I joists. I've heard that fire-fighters will not walk on a roof or attic floor system that is framed with I joists because of how quickly they can fail during a fire. Therefore, I would go with the solid 2X material over the lightness and speed of installing an I joist attic and roof system.
I have priced the 'entire roof package' both ways and trusses are always more expensive, not even close. in CT.
mini splits .. new construction. no way.
love a good attic but we have full basements. good video.
Something I noticed with my previous jobs were that trusses are getting more and more inaccurate, especially the more cut up you get. Not sure if it’s the labor force, pressures, time frames or what but we were at a point of having to verify every truss package that we got.
Oh good point i was forgetting that there is always something to fix on the pre-made trusses.
Sometimes they are out of square, different widths or the peaks is not centered.
I like to control what I do and build as opposed to relying on someone else
@@jeanfrancoisbrodeur exactly, We actually had trusses that didint fit the walls before. They were 2" too far on one side, which is crazy for a truss, and each truss had a different measurement of wrongness lol it was crazy
You didn’t even mention the heavy equipment needed to lift large trusses. That can be a huge cost added.
I’m not a fan of cut up busy roofs in general so we typically use trusses. Also, for future floor plan changes the trusses eliminate load bearing interior walls. Overall a cut n stack is good if the guys doing it are good.
Hey there, question on this, In Montana we very often have houses 48 feet and deeper, everything in my realm is trusses. Something that big, where the truss is 52 feet with eaves would you guys hand cut that or you just dont go that big and so hand cut is the way to go for smaller lengths?
Down here, way under, I would say that 99.78765578% of houses are built with trusses. Of course, if you need the space, then you need a floor and rafters. But with an unused roof space, as is typical in NZ, trusses are much cheaper, no matter how complicated the roof is. The timber is usually just 4x2s nailplated together, and it frames both the roof and the ceiling in one go. Also, they span from external wall to external wall, so internal walls are not load bearing.
TIM!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it's good to think about the person who is going to be replacing something like an electrical wire in the future. Things happens, wires need to get replaced. If the roof pitch and height of the attic make it impossible to get within 6 feet of the hole, then the electrician may need to open up the wall.
The other pro of rafters that you’re missing is that you as the builder control the quality of the rafters versus trusses you get what you get. If you have a good trust company then that’s not a problem but if your choices are universal Forest products or Republic trusswerks like us you’re better off with rafters
I've got a question for you. I own a mid 80's house. I'm trying to figure out how to increase my energy efficiency. I've been watching a bunch of your videos and still haven't seen you address all of the problems that I have. Now I'm trying not to get crazy on cost. Anything I can do I will. But sometimes I may have to contract it out. The Texas heat is already getting to us. So I really need to get ideas on how to move forward.
You'd probably have to be a lot more specific about your present situation.
As a structural engineer, trusses are the norm unless you require a hand cut roof. They are much easier to spec and have a simpler load path. The suppliers do all the detailed engineering of the truss design. You don’t have to worry about the load path of the ridge support beam. Framers also get the hip to ridge beam connections wrong even when you detail all of them out. That means having to do extra details to fix mistakes.
I can see there are non-structural advantages to hand framed roofs but it is financially better for the engineer of record to go truss framed. It is also cheaper to build in most cases. There are lots of suppliers where I live and delays have never been an issue.
One big advantage of trusses is that you frame the roof and the ceiling in one go, typically with just 4x2s and nailplates. And, as you alluded to, from external wall to external wall, with hold-downs only required at those supports.
TIMMY!!!!
I'd love to see you use family owned suppliers instead of mega-corp production builder lumberyards.
Scissor truss gives you a vented attic and a vaulted ceiling
Why not SIP roofs? Seems like a faster and better quality option that is often overlooked.
I still dont understand why the 3D printed houses dont have SIP roof structures.
Its expensive and difficult to repair if needed.
My builds are within 10% of stick framing once you calculate zip panel and insulation.
Never had one fail and require repair.
Yet...
@@rabidraccoon1201 Could just be a perception issue, then!
Yep!
SIP systems have a high failure rate. OSB rot
Unfortunately, pre-fab stick trusses are common. They may be cheap and easy to install, but when installed with a bed of fluffy insulation over the ceiling and bottom cords of the trusses, as a vented attack, they create a huge wasted no-mans land that is difficult to maintain. These vented attics are wildly inefficient spaces to install ducts and other mechanical equipment.
Developer and builders like them because they are cheap. Owners still pay for pay for it, but it's a useless hard-to-maintain space.
I imagine if one has a slate roof, hand cut is the only way to go due to the weight and structural loads??
Not if the trusses are designed to take the load.
Anyone hand cutting in FL at all? 20 years in multi family and clubhouses here, never seen it. Engineers do not even have the details. Maybe custom homes?
Timmy!
Hand cut is stronger and straighter than truss.
Couldn't you get a hand cut roof with all the members precut?
I'm new, so I apologize for the naive question: why can't trusses be made by the crew instead of buying them from a truss company?
They have to be stamped engineered systems.
before I watch this, I will add that I MUCH prefer the attic space available when the roof is hand cut. Truss roofs use up the attic space with beams. HATE IT!!
Don't forget you get your ceiling framed in also with trusses. Not sure anybody was including that in their time estimates.
And that is a big deal.
Trusses is the smart way to do it.
Minisplits suck, Great for a retrofits but I would never put them in new construction. (Tim commented that that's the new way)
Truss seems like the only way to go if you want a vented attic with a ton of insulation in north.
Trusses in a ventilated space is a huge waste of what could be usable square footage.
Soooo , 6 for one and half a dozen for the other??? That video didn’t seem to clearly answer a question.
Truss have made carpenters lazy and we’ll be honest they not carpenters maybe assemblers. At best
All my houses had tresses
Mini splits?! No thank you.
This episode is pretty useless to me without more visuals.