Why is Disney world not for hard core gamers!? But seriously with limited time at the parks that cost hundreds of dollars a day, I dont think having things being too difficult would be wise. The majority of the rides would require instructions that take time to learn. Rather than a video game where you pay once and have all the time you need to learn. These are some big points that I think you didn't cover. It is not about easy. It's about time and energy you have on your vacation when you're already stressed about getting your money's worth.
The problem with a hardcore mode for Sorcerers would be the cameras. A lot of my losses from Sorcerers don't come from my own actions, they come from the camera sensors not picking up my card. So in theory, a hardcore mode sounds fun and challenging, I'd love it, but it wouldn't work at this moment
Mission Space needs to be run as it is, or one person could screw up the ride for the whole car (accidentally or on purpose). I wait for an hour and someone else ruins my ride experience? No thanks.
Sorry, I couldn't disagree with you more on your last point. I don't want to see more of this type of thing in the parks. They already have a problem with waiting so a fun thing to do while you're queued up for something is a good idea - Disney often does this with story elements and vignettes themed for that ride. My experiences at arcades and even with Pokemon Go in a city park where twenty people are clumped around something you'll never get to try because you don't have the time or patience. Losing generates bad feelings which are the opposite of what Disney wants guests to have in their parks. Some people aren't as competitive as others and being stuck on a loop while someone in your group struggles to win something can be frustrating. The state fair experience has taught me that. Yes, I've seen your video and know that Disney's original idea incorporated elements from state fairs but for me, Disney parks are way more fun because they've toned down the frustrating and disappointing midway elements a great deal.
I agree that a challenging or even bare minimum challenging game isn't everybody's cup of tea. To that I would say: then it's just not for them. Similarly not everybody enjoys roller coasters or drops, but I don't think that's enough of a justification to not build thrill rides or drop rides. There are plenty of people who do enjoy even a small challenge, and right now none of these experiences offers that. The idea of a Disney park is that it should have something for everyone, not that everything should be for everyone. This also happens to be my biggest fear with the Star Wars Hotel. I'm hoping they have the backbone to build a truly immersive experience that goes all-in, and I'm hoping that to the guests who don't want that level of immersion they reply with: then this just isn't for you, rather than watering the experience down.
I agree. The gaming is just some senseless time wasting fun. Making an optional hard mode might work, but they have to make sure it does clump people up...like Pokémon. But, as a gamer, I can't imagine paying that much for the park and wasting my time on games... Too many rides to get to ha ha
I think these experiences should be sped up if anything before worrying about difficulty. I did the Kim Possible thing, and was having fun, but my Dad was getting VERY frustrated having to wait for each thing to happen, and that's WITHOUT having brain teasers put in. And I was around 21 at the time, so I could tell he was irked and so we stopped early to keep everyone happy, but imagine being a parent and just having to wait around that long if someone in your group genuinely enjoys doing it and you don't want to be the buzzkill. Also, I doubt they'll go all out with the Star Wars hotel. They didn't go all out with the Art of Animation resort, and defaulted to 4 of their biggest money makers (which have themes that have been done to death already AND have overlap in terms of the ocean theme for Nemo and Mermaid). The resort is supposed to be a tribute to animation, but as an animator, that hotel felt hollow. Sure, some of it was novel (the Cars area was great despite me not liking that franchise), but it is not an animation resort so much as a "biggest money makers" resort.
@@MidwaytoMainStreet when you consider todays children if they're in sports even if their team lost it's no big deal because they get a "participation" award just for being there. How fair is that to the kids who were in sports of the 50s-90s who didn't get that?
@@PrincessofEllabur I feel that's not fully fair. The main point of those trophies is to build confidence in the kids. There should be limits of course, and frankly, it should be lowered to younger kids, I feel. Also, it lets the child know that even trying his best has some value.
To add some additional thoughts now that the video is up: I think a lot of people are making some fair and good arguments for why Disney wouldn't (or didn't) do any of this. It's a vacation destination and some people don't like the idea of paying money for a chance to lose. Disney might also not like the visuals of people upset after losing or being stuck in a puzzle. They don't like unhappy guests. To that end though, I'd argue that facing and overcoming a challenge is still a central core of any kind of game. If Disney has their reasons for avoiding that, that's fine. However then my alternative suggestion would be that Disney should re-brand these experiences to better match what they actually are: walk-around attractions. Agent P at the moment isn't a game any more than Pirates of the Caribbean or Splash Mountain is a game. Right now this half and half attempt at giving people a walk-around attraction and framing it like a game just falls flat for me. I should also add that most of this stance can easily apply to the mobile gaming scene, which I believe suffers from the same problem a lot of the time. There are a ton of great mobile games, but there are so many non-game games that introduce no actual challenge. If I had to analogize it, these park experiences feel like the video game equivalent to Farmville. No actual game to it, just a tool to try and kill time for people.
Rob Plays also people pay good money to go to escape rooms that only have a 33% success rate. It’s the thrill of trying to solve the problem that makes those so much fun. And Disney would do amazing if they took things to that level with their “games”. If you don’t want to experience losing on your vacation, don’t visit that attraction. Like if I don’t want to get wet, I don’t ride splash mountain or kali river rapids.
@@shayhicks7682 Very good point. I like intense games and puzzles, but I also get panicky if it is irl, so I stick to boss battles on video games XD But I for sure agree that these in-park games are to pass time and get people moving around the park, rather being a more challenging and engaging experience. You also make a good point about knowing what you are getting into. If you do not want to risk losing, don't play the game. If you don't want your neck to ache, don't go on a roller coaster et cetera.
So your argument is now that they are calling it a game and that bothers you? Right now, this half and half attempt at creating meaningful content and churning out whatever pops into your head without consideration or research falls flat for me.
@@Sweet00thtkc Nah, my argument is still that they should introduce some branching narratives and lose states into these experiences, but at the very least if the counter-argument is going to be that it's not an option, they could at least re-brand these experiences to reflect that they're not actually games. It's not that crucial of an issue that it's a hill to die on for me, so I offered an alternative that considers the arguments against. As for the content here itself, I won't try to hold ya. If it's not your cup of tea then I appreciate the watch and wish ya the best in the future. These videos specifically are opinion pieces on topics that come to mind from time to time, so if you're looking for deeper research on them I'd agree that this is not the channel for you.
@@theboyscout0156 The change started in June 2016 when he posted his last non-Disney gaming video and ended in January 2017 when he posted his last Minecraft Disney park video.
I think what Disney is doing right now with the Play Disney Parks app is in the right direction, as it gives guests the opportunity to interact and get entertained in queues and is more of an additional magic in the parks rather than being a complete game of its own. Also this app integrates on itself the Agent P's World Showcase Adventure.
Gaming is currently Disney's biggest weakness as a corporation. Disney does video games the way Time Warner does theme parks: they hand their properties over to other companies and just sort of trust them to handle them well.
Honestly I'd love to see Disney actually begin production on their own game properties not just what we've seen in the magic kingdom or kingdom hearts games
@@jasontrain KH was Square Enix, but there was a time when Disney had its own video games division, then they placed all of the division's future on Disney Infinity which didn't pay off anywhere near well enough to justify continuing it.
Also, Disney Interactive's business model of using games as licensed products for movies and tv, was ruined with the rise of apps. They then betted on infinity, but the toys to life genre fell out of favor.
Here is the thing though, I feel that video games have something that these rides cannot have... simply, the chance to do over the game easily. If you fail a video game, you can just do the thing over. Second, is the fact that it's not just adults and older at these parks, but little younger kids. For them, losing will just suck and could easily ruin the experience for them and make things more difficult for the parents. Many of those "game like" attraction are for KIDS to immerse themselves... so losing might be harder for them... The thing is... most families don't go to Disney World FOR a challenge, but to ESCAPE challenges... many 3 year olds would cry if they lost and frankly, to many younger kids, the story is immersive enough. Yes, for a video game or a puzzle at home, that'd be one thing to challenge them... but during Disney World??? During the magical adventure where everything is supposed to go their way??? Plus, honestly, from the experience of taking the kids to Disney Land, I can say that even when things go perfect, it's STILL tiring to go around with the kids at the parks. Disney is too much of an escape and frankly, not supposed to be sad for you. When my nephew was 2, losing at Super Smash 3 times in a row made him cry and get mad. It was tough for him. Of course, I wouldn't let him quit, but we were at home... Do we really want to make little children face that kind of challenge during their Disney trip??? The EXPENSIVE Disney trip???These interactive attractions are popular for a reason... because they immerse the people. I mean, you need to remember several points about you that is different than other people. YOU are someone that constantly goes to the Disney parks WAY more than the average person. And second, you are not a child. Yes, we need to challenge children... but not always, not during the times when they just relax and want to feel like a hero... It IS important to challenge children, and they do need to have failures... I agree with that... but I feel that is something they shouldn't have to experience at Disney World...
As someone that plays way too many video games, I understand where you're coming from. The problem is that Disney World (and all the other parks) is mainly a vacation destination. Most people that go to these parks aren't going to be visiting constantly. They're on a time limit when they go to these parks and decide what they want to partake in. I think most people would be disappointed if they could "lose" a game at a Disney Park because they'd see it as wasting their precious time they have at the park.
To your point about kids, I have one small counterargument. While many parents and adults might be at the park for the experience, some may not be. They just want to give their kids something to remember, while it doesn't really mean that much to them. Paying admission to a Disney park just to have a kid want to play video games while there might not seem like money well spent for the adults. I'm certainly not sure I'd want to go to Disneyland or Disney World and have a child just want to "beat" a game.
In my opinion giving children a chance to solve riddles/puzzles and interact with characters in the Disney mythos in a completely new and exciting way would probably create lasting memories. Also I'd argue that these are more like scavenger hunts than video games, just with advanced technology. But getting children away from screens is important, so maybe more real world interactions rather than things like the Sorcerers of Magic Kingdom.
The real issue from Disney's perspective is probably guest capacity, how many parties can experience the interactive event in an hour. If the interactive event is a puzzle that requires multiple attempts before the player can move on, fewer people can experience the puzzle each day. The current interactive elements in the Pirates Quest and Sorcerers routinely have a "wait line" as one or two parties wait while someone else watches the triggered event give them the next clue. This is not an insurmountable obstacle. The way the Pirates system semi-randomizes the order you experience the interactive events to avoid bunching up participants is a step in the right direction.
One thing it COULD potentially do is time you out after losing so you can't try over and over and over and hold up the line- especially with Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom. Kind of like how cellphones lock you out if you get the passcode wrong too many times. Maybe a time limit of at LEAST however long it takes to play [and complete] a round or two, say five to ten minutes. That way, you might as well let the person/people behind you go while you wait for your turn again. So essentially it forces you to get in the back of the line or come back later. Each set of cards could/should be (or maybe already is) linked to a magic band that you have to scan before playing so that way the system knows which "account" is playing the game. And that account gets locked and the system resets to let the next person play using their own account/magic band.
That is another reason why I never got into these in-park games. I always saw a line for the Magic Kingdom sorcereres game. I would rather wait in a line for an attraction.
I am afraid that having failstates can be very frustrating for guests, as the queues are very long and you don't want to fail only to queue again for hours for another shot.
That's the beauty of these experiences. They're not rides, so there are no queues. Activities like Agent P especially are able to randomize the order of events so that guests are spread out and not clumping up in a specific order. I do agree that fail-states in rides wouldn't work though.
@@MidwaytoMainStreet OhhhH! I didn't know that. I didn't have enough money yet to visit America + Disney World. Well in that case, yes you are 100% right
I certainly agree with you in making more challenging the interactive attractions of the Disney Parks, however, these parks are some of the most visited in the world and particularly WDW receives guests from all around the world and they speak different languages. Interactivity in games such as sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom or Agent P's World Showcase Adventure are easy to understand or offer translated versions for all to enjoy and they could try to make them more challenging. Other attractions like Toy Story Mania and Buzz Lightyear Ranger Spin are very intuitive and fun for everyone too. In cases like Mission Space, Millenium Falcon, etc. including interactive elements that may affect the experience may not be the best idea, even when it sounds great, specially people that don't speak english may get disoriented or worried because they don't understand or they they don't really know what to do. Also in this attractions, you may have to share the vehicle with another party and they get affected by the performance of the other people in the same vehicle. I tell you by my own experience, being a child that didn't speak English and not being able to understand completely what I had to do and being worried. Maybe making it intuitive enough it this idea of more interactivity would work for everyone.
Instead of hard mode it should be called 'critical mode' just like the Kingdom Hearts series. :) Lose and come back for another round the villains mock the player (giving extra drive to win this time) also inspired by Kingdom Hearts: "Is the 'hero' ready?" "I admire your tenacity"
You make some excellent points here, but I think you're overlooking one thing: the amount of time people spend in the parks. Failing and trying again is valuable, but it takes a while. For example, I'm not good at Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom and it took me 6 hours (over the course of two weeks) to beat it on easy mode. I don't think a family with a week's vacation will spend that kind of time on a single attraction. While a more difficult win is more meaningful, an easy win is more realistic for Disney parks, imo
I think with this, this is why the mode should be separate from the others. There should be modes for those who won't have much time at the parks, but also have more challenging modes for those who live near the parks and visit them often
I think a game without the risk of failure doesn’t allow you to be truly excited or happy about your win and during the game it is degraded to a mundane and uninteresting activity because you don’t care how well you do, always knowing you’ll win- it’s not exciting, that’s why the millennium falcon ride concerns me, although I do at least appreciate the damage system
Mission Space is over 15 years old and didn't have the technology for a branching narrative. Dragons Lair a game around 36 years old had like 50 kill animations and 1 good end.
why not make a smartphone app that has a little compass and map and hints / the ancears meaning it's not in-game so if kids are stuck a parent can just guide them to the next puzzle if they need it
Having a hardcore mode is not very economical for Disney. With games being harder, it would take players more time to complete them, so less people would be able to experience the game. And when they lose, it is much less likely these guests would come back to that game, especially if you run to a dead end. Keeping it easy on guests keeps the engagement, the efficiency and statisfaction high, and therefore keeps profit high for that specific ride/game. Changing that makes no sense from a buisness point for Disney.
This is where I think the idea of introducing Disney themed escape rooms would fit nicely with your proposal. Not only would this fit within the parks, Disney Springs, Downtown Disney, etc, I could see it working as regional entertainment destinations. Much like what DisneyQuest was.
Love the video, but i do think it's important to note several cons about the existence of a fail state especially in regards to children (And all of these could be solved by just adding a hard mode for adults on instead of changing the existing modes): -The disney parks are not something kids have infinite time at, and kids still do have a higher expectation of winning than adults -While many kids do play video games, a lot of kids don't play video games that have a fail state. Many of them play mobile games or games like minecraft where you can pick up again immediately, which again, with limited time at the parks, is not always an option. The same goes for games like fortnite and overwatch, where the kids keep playing over and over and get closer to winning. The park doesn't offer that level of forgiveness in this hypothetical scenario. If the kid loses, they lose forever in many cases where they can't/won't return to the parks for many years if at all. -Many kids who play video games are a bit older, like, over the age of 8 generally with obviously a lot of outliers, but many of the kids who may be experiencing this being much younger than that -Disney likes to avoid tantrum-creating circumstances for several reasons we're all well aware of. It's unpleasant for everyone involved and the parents become angry with the park itself for providing it. -Even in adults, while many of us love that additional challenge, a lot of adults dislike it, and when they encounter that challenge and find it's hard, they quit. Not everyone looks to video games the same way people that play a lot of them do, and many of them just see it as a temporary escape rather than a long term goal-reaching sort of thing. Many of my friends enjoy watching me play video games but hate playing them on their own because they get mad or they feel it's too hard and that they won't be able to improve (which I disagree with, but if you're unwilling to put in that time to improve, obviously you won't). We're all well aware that games like dark souls have a much less widespread appeal than games like minecraft, and generally I think it's because minecraft offers difficulty levels and has no impassable obstacles if your skill level isn't high enough, because you can always just set the game to peaceful. Basically, I love the idea, but I think it would have been more effective if you introduced it as a completely optional hardcore mode for ALL of the instances. Even then, the curve of difficulty would spike so highly that guests would either try a lower mode first and find its boring and way too easy and assume the hardcore mode is only a bit harder, or they would try hardcore, find it too hard, and then complain about it because they feel it's an experience that was Taken from them rather than one they failed, if that makes sense.
I could talk about video games and difficulty in them all day, but it's also important to note that a good, challenging video game is extremely hard to make and design, whereas a one-track story based game is a lot simpler. From disney's POV, I'm sure offering that hardcore mode is much more trouble than it's worth.
I've just read your comment rob, and I agree with it! I think the term "game" is relatively misleading here, but the same can go for many experiences that are technically video games (like the telltale games you brought up) I would consider those to be an experience with an illusion of choice or challenge, which seems to be what all of these fall into (even if the illusion of choice or challenge would only be perceived by young children playing it)
I got reservations for galaxy’s edge at Disney land, and it is possible to loose on smugglers run. Everything depends on your performance. The main objective is to steal power cores from a flying train. There are a total of 6 people on one run, 2 pilots, 2 gunners, and 2 engineers. You have to get out of your comfort zone to communicate with your team to get as many power cores you can. The pilots can fly the ship wherever they want. The gunners help shoot other ships trying to get power cores. And the engineers have to repair the ship and grapple onto the train to steal the power cores. It’s really fun, and you can actually loose!
I agree. There needs to be a way to plunge not only myself, but the other 3 poor souls who are stuck with me straight to our deaths on Mission:Space. Though it might be costly for Disney having to remove all the bodies, which could explain why the haven't done it yet. 🤔
the main issue I have with this is that Most people only go to disney once every several years (if not only once or twice in their entire life) and then a loss is a loss. with a normal video game if you lose then you can try again. if you lose a match in fortnie then just queue up for another round. if you die in most games just go back to your last save. also having a lack of a fail state makes it easier for disney to predict how long it'll take for an average person to play with a lot less statistical variation. so that'll make it harder to calculate crowd control and flow
I think you've got a real point here Rob, the TTA podcast really made me want to try sorcerers when I go to MK (and ask for medium difficulty mode first!). I think we need to wait to see how the interactivity of galaxy's Edge plays out. The falcon is already getting some mixed reviews because it's more of a game, but it will be interesting to see if the 'galactic credits' thing actually happens..
I think the problem is that, with failure states introduced to rides, the parks have no control over the length of any ride and risk their income since guests aren't charged by hour
I think the challenge with "losing" isn't the age of children but guest flow. If people could lose it would trigger an even bigger bottleneck at these spots than already exists. You're right, risk and stakes are what makes winning so satisfying. They can add that risk to a ride like smuggler's run because there is a time limit. You can't simply stay on the ride over and over again until you win like you can at a sorcerer battle. Also thanks for your videos, they are one of my favorite things on RUclips.
I am with you for the games to have a fail state as long as you are able to be properly challenged for your age. What is challenging to a 4 year old is not the same as a 24 year old. As a parent, I don't mind something like this upsetting my kid because of failure as much as wasting time having them not being able to complete an impossible task to get to the desired outcome. As long as Disney is able to create level options and properly inform guests of the challenge they are in for at each level, go for it. If you end up with frustrated kids and/or adults who just want to interact with the scenes, then, is it really worth it? I don't feel it is so much about people being "snowflakes" as people spending their hard-earned money and wanting to get an interactive experience. Many people are only able to visit the parks once every few years or once in their lifetime. Those folks should be to complete the tasks and get the same experience. The other thing about a more challenging adventure is that it will take longer, so if you don't have the easy option, you won't be able to complete it unless you are able to visit quite a bit.
Reset time is also important. meaning the time it takes before you can retry. longer times can be frustrating and parents may not want to sit around while their kid does the same thing over and over again. maybe the kid can somehow take the game home with them? collect spells in the park and use them when they get home maybe.
I hadn't even considered this topic, but I have to say, I totally agree. I think the ranking system on certain rides is fine (it still sparks competition, at least in my family), but the inability to lose in the quests and challenges is frustrating. It would be awesome if Disney took some of the complex riddles and difficulty that they put into Hidden Mickey hunts into games in the parks. I think that more challenging games and quests would be more fun. A game like Her Interactive's Nancy Drew games would be amazing. Those games give you everything you need to solve the mystery, but if you get stuck, you get stuck. Yes, there is only one outcome, but they still allow you to struggle and problem solve. I would love to see more stuff like that at Disney!
There is a lot of room to cheat in puzzle game design and make it appear challenging when it really isn't. If a puzzle contains a red herring, the player will either walk right into a trap, and trying something else will provide the solution, so they are left with sensation of overcoming a challenge, or the player will see the trap and try something else from the get go, giving them the feeling of outsmarting the game. If there are enough win paths alongside a more obvious and inviting lose-path, that's how it plays out. I think beyond cheated puzzle design and collaboration-based challenge approaches that basically cannot be failed, i don't think there's room for actual challenge at such a facility.
Great video, Rob, and I agree with you on the actual games. Agent P and Sorcerers should have a fail state. But never rides. Especially not simulator rides. As a blind person who loves Disney, I’m dismayed enough over the increasing prevalence of rides that require vision to properly enjoy, though audio description (especially on FOP) helps. But. The thought that my blindness will impact not only my enjoyment of a ride but everyone with me? That’s distressing, and makes me really nervous about Smuggler’s Run, though I’m trying to hold out hope for a work-around for the blind.
Love this idea, Rob! I hope Galaxy's Edge continues in the "losing" manner. Smuggler's Run looks like it will deliver that but I hope more comes out of it. Especially with the ability to use the Datapad in the Play Disney Parks apps. Hopefully losing a game in there will add to your Star Wars Story when you're in the land.
Because all sorts of people go to Disney, I think that there should be easy and hard modes to these game-like experiences. That way, people that want a more laidback time can treat the experiences like a walking tour that they currently are, or people can get really into the challenge. There is nothing wrong with options.
Some of it would depend on how the loss is presented. An overly “mean” or consequential outcome could sour folks on the ride/experience, especially if it’s something they waited a while to do and won’t have an opportunity to try again.
Kind of, yup! Not a total fail-state in the sense of "You crashed and died. Game over!" but there are different ways to finish the mission. That's a great way to introduce some weight and importance to interactivity without making it a binary win/lose scenario. It seems like they're capable of doing it with this latest ride, so there's no real reason they can't do the same with these other experiences.
It sounds like the sorcerers game has it right with multiple difficulty options. That way someone who actually wants a challenge and someone else who just wants to see everything up to the ending can both walk away happy.
I wouldn't be surprised if Disney was cautious about making their guests feel bad if they lose. That said, there are ways to make losing potentially more fun than winning - and they probably have a few ideas on how to do that with the Millennium Falcon attraction. Maybe you took too many hits, you have to take a safer alternate route, and Lando calls in saying "Not a scratch - that's the last time I lend the Falcon out to anyone", or some other amusing line.
There's also the issue of tourists who are coming to WDW as a "once in a lifetime" thing, so they can't afford to lose in an interactive experience if it means wasting hours on it instead going on rides and shows.
I just rode Mission Space for the first time yesterday, and my only complaint was how I had no actual control over the ride experience. When they activate manual override on the shuttle controls, it just feels like I should have more control over the experience. I can’t wait to see how the new Star Wars ride turns out!
As a mother of 6 children from ages 27 to 2 I agree having to lose and try again teaches them they need to work harder and try harder to get what they want in life... let's get back to kids being rewarded for effort and ability and not for showing up
Kids may enjoy video games and enjoy challenges but there’s one thing you forgot: raging. I have a younger brother and sister and even though they like challenging video games, they start screaming when they lose. Losing all your progress in a difficult game will make many children angry and put them in a very bad mood, which is the opposite of what Disney intends with these games which were made (especially in the Agent P game) as a distraction for younger children while older kids and adults enjoy a more mature aspect of the parks.
Kinda reminds me of this Disney handheld game system they were offering one time I went to the park. (Around the early 2000s I think) You started with one, and it used some kind of wireless communication that would unlock games based on certain attractions as you got close to them. The games were simple, but some were really fun. It gave you something fun to do while waiting in line, at least. Now, if you didn't unlock all the games in the duration of your stay they would all automatically unlock after a week. (There was also a button combination that I think was printed in the instruction booklet that would unlock them all instantly.) So technically, there isn't much of a fail state here either, but I think this was ultimately a good idea. It gave you a fun side quest to do while in the park, and if you couldn't make it in time, (or couldn't make it to all the parks) you wouldn't be stuck with the regret of having a device with most of its content locked behind an arbitrary wall.
Disney Land has always had really cool interactive stuff like as a kid I remember seeing a Bug's Life show in 4D. Then there was the Disney Character personality test.
What about the Wilderness Explorer challenge at AK? I once saw a kid who had collected all of the stickers be awarded the special title at the end of a hard-fought journey through the park and he couldn’t have been more proud of himself!
The lack of losing on Mission Space is partly why I have only ridden it twice in the dozens of times I've been to Epcot, even when I was a kid. Who wants to spend a ride pressing random flashing buttons with no return value? It's at the level of a toddler playing with a toy cash register. You're exactly right, it does insult the intelligence of everybody older than 3. It's nice that Smuggler's Run is a truly interactive ride, but it didn't give me any reason to care about the outcome. That might change if I ride it again and get the position of pilot. For me it didn't live up to its hype as a virtual reality arcade game, but it was a step in the right direction. I've barely played any video games in my life, but you don't have to be a hardcore gamer to appreciate the universal truth that winning a game is sweeter when you can lose. I loved the Buzz Lightyear ride when I was a kid because it was always fun to compare scores with my family and to hope to beat the daily high scores. That is a perfect example of how Disney can make something competitive without being unattainable to kids or foreigners. If there's no competitive aspect in a game, it quickly becomes b-o-r-i-n-g. Not related to your video topic, but another reason I'm not a fan of Mission Space is the simulator design - no simulator will ever replicate the heart-dropping, wind-in-your-hair sensations of roller coasters and drop rides. I am really glad to see they are building new roller coasters at Magic Kingdom and Epcot and I can't wait to see what the next few years bring.
I liked the idea that Michael Kay had for Millennium Falcon Smugglers Run. We already know that there are several outcomes, depending on how you, and your crew perform, but it would be even better if they can roll the experience in with your magic band or Disney Play app to make it more personal. Instead of a one off experience, you carry that score/rank with you. The worse you perform, the narrative/story might change slightly for you, as well as if you are a high ranking crew member. Maybe animatronics recognize and react (we already know that disney is able to identify you from a decent distance from your magic band) Maybe this also changes the way the rest of Batuu reacts to you. By having a high rank, you are able to interact better with the planet, or even things like getting addressed with a rank in your name. It creates a needed divide, but every person with a lower rank has the opportunity to improve on it. It creates a more competitive arena to want to perform well when you ride so you can unlock the advantages of being a higher rank.
Up here in Boston, we've got a live-action puzzle complex called 'Boda Borg' there the philosophy is for you to quickly fail over and over again until you finally figure it out. Makes finally winning very satisfying.
I love the menehune trail at aulani. It was such a fun and beautiful interactive trail for me. Lizards would dance in the lights, paintings would come to life, lava would surround you inside a volcano and menehune would give you gifts. 🙃👍
wait! does this mean that you completed medium and hard mode of sorcerers? Cool! I think that your idea is completely feasible. The ones who have already done easy, medium and hard mode are probably people who like challenges. I seriously doubt that if they get to unblock a super hard mode they would dislike to loose. They already invested hours playing these games and won't quit for having to re do a level. Anyway, we can all dream.
One thing I will say, at the end of mission space there is the game where two sides battle eachother and you can lose, I know this cause I once lost 12 games in a row lol
I think this is a great proposition! I hate when a game feels too easy and anything you do will still give a set ending. I would rather have a hard game that the outcome is determined by the player and the ability to lose, so I %100 agree with you
The problem with Disney creating a losing environment is that is goes against Disney's facade of "happiest place on earth". They don't want to create an environment that is going to cause negative feelings (so much so that they have ridiculous strict rules and regulations for their staff to follow) for their attendees. the mere thought of having a child, or anyone for that matter, upset because they lost at a game is just unacceptable to them.
The main issue I see with your proposal is that it would take up too much time trying to beat the games for some people, and the parks are way to crowded for one person to spend 45 min. trying to advance to the next level. That's what they should have used DisneyQuest for
I agree with this so much, I think Galaxy's Edge is going to be a good test into this. From failing the mission on the Falcon, and also the data =pad missions.
That's why I would love to see a park built around a cohesive narrative and the outcome each day is reflected in the night show. One where the hero's win and one where the villian prevailed. Like Galaxy's Edge level interactivity spread out over an entire park with a Beastly Kingdom anesthetic.... Shame Disney has an IP driven CEO, otherwise this could be a thing. Oh well
That would be pretty interesting- like, maybe have an overall nighttime show, but then have a segment of the show based on the outcome of some particular game that people played that varies per night but seamlessly blends with the rest of the show. Kind of how Star Tours "seamlessly" blends the visiting of 3 different lands with transitional scenes except just going into a particular show sequence. It would have to be firework-free, though and maybe just done through projections and music and lighting (and maybe flamethrowers), because fireworks are actually expendable and it would be a pain to have to get each scenario ready or even predict which one would prevail on which night since I'm pretty sure they don't buy fireworks nightly, they probably have a huge store of them somewhere. But it would be a neat concept!
2 Ghosts that was so fun lol I remember the crappy flip phones they would give you and it made my time in the world showcase mote fun when I was little. My mom could get a drink and I could try to do the game
If i wasnt lacking in time when i went to EPCOT in april, i totally wouldve done the entire Perry game. Im 15 and I still adore Phineas and Ferb and I wish I couldve found all of the awesome figures hidden in World Showcase
This reminds me much of Magiquest. In a sub game of Magiquest, Compassquest, you are given a compass and you must solve a lot on your own given you played the main Magiquest story. It’s a very hard game for many children as they cry about how they cannot finish it even if they have the clues. Children as old as preteens cannot figure it out. As much as it seems fun to have a challenging game, children cannot always figure it out. It’s totally fine to always have easy mode and sometimes hard mode isn’t fun. My fiancé (he’s 30) who tried to defeat one of the main bosses for Magiquest couldn’t figure out how to defeat him and almost had a temper tantrum, he figured it out of course. But children mostly want to play not all want a difficult task.
I’ve had this same issue with the void at Disney springs (which, I know, isn’t done by Disney but...) and I agree fail states would make all of these interactive experiences better
Do you think they need to make the games super casual because you're likely going to be in a group with people who aren't playing (like parents) and most players aren't able to dedicate the amount of time required if the games were more challenging?
Yup and I totally agree. That's one experience where I understand that people likely wouldn't drop more money to try again. However that'd be a perfect opportunity to do a branching narrative. That way you finish the experience one way or another, but the narrative story is altered by how well or poorly you play.
What a great video! I go to WDW a few times a year and those games never appealed to me because there is not a big reward. I go like the World Showcase seasonal scavenger hunts, at least when they still gave out those plastic eggs in the spring. But then again, you don't have to complete your map correctly to earn that scavenger hunt prize! I find the park games are a way to kill time; something supplemental to other activities. I always did the egg scavenger hunt because I would go during spring break (so during flower and garden) and eat around the world, and while digesting I would search for the eggs.
While I would love the challenge and think it totally makes sense to have a way to fail there are two problems I see having to deal with. Number one is the difficulty level. There are a lot of kids in Disney. Making something easy enough not to discourage them but hard enough not to be seen as arbitrary and about as meaningless as pressing the buttons in mission space for adults may prove very challenging. Also, last time I went on mission space we had a party of 3 and there was no single rider to fill the 4th seat. So those buttons couldn’t be pressed. You don’t want to have the mission be failed simply because there was no one there to do the action. That would be unfair to the riders.
I wish that mission space had a losing state, and because of that I tend to do the opposite of what they say to do, I just wish they add a losing state later on
I am against the Mission Space idea and also not a fan of what they did in Smuggler's Run and here's why. Unless you are traveling with 3 other people you know, you are playing with strangers. When I rode it, the pilots just came from the cantina and had had a few too many and most of the time all they could do is laugh and apologize for not doing the controls. It takes away from the experience if people you don't know are ducking it up. I was annoyed my one time to ride the ride, I got Drunk 1 and Drunk 2 as the pilots. Now that said, the idea about the video games I like. There's no reason those 1 player games shouldn't be challenging or loseable.
I wonder what Walt would of think of children’s organized sports today ( T-ball, soccer etc) you didn’t win one game, But Here’s a Trophy...Your team finished in last place, But Here’s a Trophy.... It’s kind of where we are as a country right now....Sad...But Here’s a Trophy !
Mission Space - I'm not going to die or allow my family to die all because some stranger either cluelessly doesn't know what to do, or doesn't understand English, or is simply flat out not there. I'm pressing that button for them! The Challenger didn't have autopilot to correct whatever failed. And as a Tesla owner, I can tell you that autopilot is just an extra safety measure, a novelty. You can't trust it, or rely on it. The danger is still there. I rode Mission Space before there even was an orange. Back when people were going to the hospital after riding. I am pressing that button! You have ONE job. Can't do it, I don't want you in my crew!
Active and impactful role in the narrative? Funny that you used Overwatch and League of Legends footage for that bit. I have to wonder if Disney will ever turn Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom into an actual, physical card game. They could hire Studio Dice.
Hey! Im the person who asked what park would you take you child to (in the TTA podcast) What I meant in that question was you could have one day to go to one park. One park overall. :)
From a lot of vlogs I have who experienced Galaxy’s Edge and Smuggler’s Run, they appear to incorporated a lot of what you suggest in this vlog. But there is an argument that many visitors are not yet aware or can fully experience these components while at Black Spire / Battu in the four hours allotted in current visits. Have you experienced it yet ? Thoughts ?
Imagine if everyone would just die in the Haunted Mansion.
😂😂👍
Quite a few people's ashes have gotten dumped at the HM over the decades.
one in three times you ride you just die instantly hahaha
*shocked Pikachu*
How's that losing? I would love to join the 999 Happy Haunts!
Why is Disney world not for hard core gamers!?
But seriously with limited time at the parks that cost hundreds of dollars a day, I dont think having things being too difficult would be wise. The majority of the rides would require instructions that take time to learn. Rather than a video game where you pay once and have all the time you need to learn.
These are some big points that I think you didn't cover. It is not about easy. It's about time and energy you have on your vacation when you're already stressed about getting your money's worth.
Yes I completely agree
The problem with a hardcore mode for Sorcerers would be the cameras. A lot of my losses from Sorcerers don't come from my own actions, they come from the camera sensors not picking up my card. So in theory, a hardcore mode sounds fun and challenging, I'd love it, but it wouldn't work at this moment
Very true. I'm sure if they put work into developing it, they could fix the camera issue as well.
Honestly, if we could leave the easy modes of the games in, but also allow people to play the harder ones, its a win/win. Play your way
Mission Space needs to be run as it is, or one person could screw up the ride for the whole car (accidentally or on purpose). I wait for an hour and someone else ruins my ride experience? No thanks.
Or wait an hour in line for my kid to ruin his own experience and not be able to ride again bc there is no way I'll wait again lol.
Your Idea attracts SORE LOSERS and that's a problem with Happiest Place on Earth
Sorry, I couldn't disagree with you more on your last point. I don't want to see more of this type of thing in the parks. They already have a problem with waiting so a fun thing to do while you're queued up for something is a good idea - Disney often does this with story elements and vignettes themed for that ride. My experiences at arcades and even with Pokemon Go in a city park where twenty people are clumped around something you'll never get to try because you don't have the time or patience. Losing generates bad feelings which are the opposite of what Disney wants guests to have in their parks. Some people aren't as competitive as others and being stuck on a loop while someone in your group struggles to win something can be frustrating. The state fair experience has taught me that. Yes, I've seen your video and know that Disney's original idea incorporated elements from state fairs but for me, Disney parks are way more fun because they've toned down the frustrating and disappointing midway elements a great deal.
I agree that a challenging or even bare minimum challenging game isn't everybody's cup of tea. To that I would say: then it's just not for them. Similarly not everybody enjoys roller coasters or drops, but I don't think that's enough of a justification to not build thrill rides or drop rides. There are plenty of people who do enjoy even a small challenge, and right now none of these experiences offers that. The idea of a Disney park is that it should have something for everyone, not that everything should be for everyone. This also happens to be my biggest fear with the Star Wars Hotel. I'm hoping they have the backbone to build a truly immersive experience that goes all-in, and I'm hoping that to the guests who don't want that level of immersion they reply with: then this just isn't for you, rather than watering the experience down.
I agree. The gaming is just some senseless time wasting fun. Making an optional hard mode might work, but they have to make sure it does clump people up...like Pokémon. But, as a gamer, I can't imagine paying that much for the park and wasting my time on games... Too many rides to get to ha ha
I think these experiences should be sped up if anything before worrying about difficulty. I did the Kim Possible thing, and was having fun, but my Dad was getting VERY frustrated having to wait for each thing to happen, and that's WITHOUT having brain teasers put in. And I was around 21 at the time, so I could tell he was irked and so we stopped early to keep everyone happy, but imagine being a parent and just having to wait around that long if someone in your group genuinely enjoys doing it and you don't want to be the buzzkill.
Also, I doubt they'll go all out with the Star Wars hotel. They didn't go all out with the Art of Animation resort, and defaulted to 4 of their biggest money makers (which have themes that have been done to death already AND have overlap in terms of the ocean theme for Nemo and Mermaid). The resort is supposed to be a tribute to animation, but as an animator, that hotel felt hollow. Sure, some of it was novel (the Cars area was great despite me not liking that franchise), but it is not an animation resort so much as a "biggest money makers" resort.
@@MidwaytoMainStreet when you consider todays children if they're in sports even if their team lost it's no big deal because they get a "participation" award just for being there. How fair is that to the kids who were in sports of the 50s-90s who didn't get that?
@@PrincessofEllabur I feel that's not fully fair. The main point of those trophies is to build confidence in the kids. There should be limits of course, and frankly, it should be lowered to younger kids, I feel. Also, it lets the child know that even trying his best has some value.
Me: About to eat lunch. *sees Rob video*. Me: There goes my weekend.
To add some additional thoughts now that the video is up: I think a lot of people are making some fair and good arguments for why Disney wouldn't (or didn't) do any of this. It's a vacation destination and some people don't like the idea of paying money for a chance to lose. Disney might also not like the visuals of people upset after losing or being stuck in a puzzle. They don't like unhappy guests.
To that end though, I'd argue that facing and overcoming a challenge is still a central core of any kind of game. If Disney has their reasons for avoiding that, that's fine. However then my alternative suggestion would be that Disney should re-brand these experiences to better match what they actually are: walk-around attractions. Agent P at the moment isn't a game any more than Pirates of the Caribbean or Splash Mountain is a game.
Right now this half and half attempt at giving people a walk-around attraction and framing it like a game just falls flat for me. I should also add that most of this stance can easily apply to the mobile gaming scene, which I believe suffers from the same problem a lot of the time. There are a ton of great mobile games, but there are so many non-game games that introduce no actual challenge. If I had to analogize it, these park experiences feel like the video game equivalent to Farmville. No actual game to it, just a tool to try and kill time for people.
It’s Disney, even when you win, your wallet loses BIG TIME! 🤣🤣🤣
Rob Plays also people pay good money to go to escape rooms that only have a 33% success rate. It’s the thrill of trying to solve the problem that makes those so much fun. And Disney would do amazing if they took things to that level with their “games”. If you don’t want to experience losing on your vacation, don’t visit that attraction. Like if I don’t want to get wet, I don’t ride splash mountain or kali river rapids.
@@shayhicks7682 Very good point. I like intense games and puzzles, but I also get panicky if it is irl, so I stick to boss battles on video games XD But I for sure agree that these in-park games are to pass time and get people moving around the park, rather being a more challenging and engaging experience. You also make a good point about knowing what you are getting into. If you do not want to risk losing, don't play the game. If you don't want your neck to ache, don't go on a roller coaster et cetera.
So your argument is now that they are calling it a game and that bothers you? Right now, this half and half attempt at creating meaningful content and churning out whatever pops into your head without consideration or research falls flat for me.
@@Sweet00thtkc Nah, my argument is still that they should introduce some branching narratives and lose states into these experiences, but at the very least if the counter-argument is going to be that it's not an option, they could at least re-brand these experiences to reflect that they're not actually games. It's not that crucial of an issue that it's a hill to die on for me, so I offered an alternative that considers the arguments against. As for the content here itself, I won't try to hold ya. If it's not your cup of tea then I appreciate the watch and wish ya the best in the future. These videos specifically are opinion pieces on topics that come to mind from time to time, so if you're looking for deeper research on them I'd agree that this is not the channel for you.
With this video, you return to this channel's origin as a gaming channel. After all, its name is still "Rob Plays That Game."
When did he change?
@@theboyscout0156 The change started in June 2016 when he posted his last non-Disney gaming video and ended in January 2017 when he posted his last Minecraft Disney park video.
Nice to see you put perry the platypus in the thumbnail.
I think what Disney is doing right now with the Play Disney Parks app is in the right direction, as it gives guests the opportunity to interact and get entertained in queues and is more of an additional magic in the parks rather than being a complete game of its own. Also this app integrates on itself the Agent P's World Showcase Adventure.
Gaming is currently Disney's biggest weakness as a corporation. Disney does video games the way Time Warner does theme parks: they hand their properties over to other companies and just sort of trust them to handle them well.
Honestly I'd love to see Disney actually begin production on their own game properties not just what we've seen in the magic kingdom or kingdom hearts games
Capcom worked out pretty well, but I see your point.
@@jasontrain KH was Square Enix, but there was a time when Disney had its own video games division, then they placed all of the division's future on Disney Infinity which didn't pay off anywhere near well enough to justify continuing it.
They are buying a video game company, but it looks like that one will be used for mobile games.
Also, Disney Interactive's business model of using games as licensed products for movies and tv, was ruined with the rise of apps. They then betted on infinity, but the toys to life genre fell out of favor.
Here is the thing though, I feel that video games have something that these rides cannot have... simply, the chance to do over the game easily. If you fail a video game, you can just do the thing over. Second, is the fact that it's not just adults and older at these parks, but little younger kids. For them, losing will just suck and could easily ruin the experience for them and make things more difficult for the parents.
Many of those "game like" attraction are for KIDS to immerse themselves... so losing might be harder for them...
The thing is... most families don't go to Disney World FOR a challenge, but to ESCAPE challenges... many 3 year olds would cry if they lost and frankly, to many younger kids, the story is immersive enough.
Yes, for a video game or a puzzle at home, that'd be one thing to challenge them... but during Disney World??? During the magical adventure where everything is supposed to go their way???
Plus, honestly, from the experience of taking the kids to Disney Land, I can say that even when things go perfect, it's STILL tiring to go around with the kids at the parks.
Disney is too much of an escape and frankly, not supposed to be sad for you. When my nephew was 2, losing at Super Smash 3 times in a row made him cry and get mad. It was tough for him. Of course, I wouldn't let him quit, but we were at home... Do we really want to make little children face that kind of challenge during their Disney trip???
The EXPENSIVE Disney trip???These interactive attractions are popular for a reason... because they immerse the people.
I mean, you need to remember several points about you that is different than other people. YOU are someone that constantly goes to the Disney parks WAY more than the average person. And second, you are not a child.
Yes, we need to challenge children... but not always, not during the times when they just relax and want to feel like a hero...
It IS important to challenge children, and they do need to have failures... I agree with that... but I feel that is something they shouldn't have to experience at Disney World...
As someone that plays way too many video games, I understand where you're coming from. The problem is that Disney World (and all the other parks) is mainly a vacation destination. Most people that go to these parks aren't going to be visiting constantly. They're on a time limit when they go to these parks and decide what they want to partake in. I think most people would be disappointed if they could "lose" a game at a Disney Park because they'd see it as wasting their precious time they have at the park.
To your point about kids, I have one small counterargument. While many parents and adults might be at the park for the experience, some may not be. They just want to give their kids something to remember, while it doesn't really mean that much to them. Paying admission to a Disney park just to have a kid want to play video games while there might not seem like money well spent for the adults. I'm certainly not sure I'd want to go to Disneyland or Disney World and have a child just want to "beat" a game.
In my opinion giving children a chance to solve riddles/puzzles and interact with characters in the Disney mythos in a completely new and exciting way would probably create lasting memories. Also I'd argue that these are more like scavenger hunts than video games, just with advanced technology. But getting children away from screens is important, so maybe more real world interactions rather than things like the Sorcerers of Magic Kingdom.
The real issue from Disney's perspective is probably guest capacity, how many parties can experience the interactive event in an hour. If the interactive event is a puzzle that requires multiple attempts before the player can move on, fewer people can experience the puzzle each day. The current interactive elements in the Pirates Quest and Sorcerers routinely have a "wait line" as one or two parties wait while someone else watches the triggered event give them the next clue.
This is not an insurmountable obstacle. The way the Pirates system semi-randomizes the order you experience the interactive events to avoid bunching up participants is a step in the right direction.
One thing it COULD potentially do is time you out after losing so you can't try over and over and over and hold up the line- especially with Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom. Kind of like how cellphones lock you out if you get the passcode wrong too many times. Maybe a time limit of at LEAST however long it takes to play [and complete] a round or two, say five to ten minutes. That way, you might as well let the person/people behind you go while you wait for your turn again. So essentially it forces you to get in the back of the line or come back later. Each set of cards could/should be (or maybe already is) linked to a magic band that you have to scan before playing so that way the system knows which "account" is playing the game. And that account gets locked and the system resets to let the next person play using their own account/magic band.
That is another reason why I never got into these in-park games. I always saw a line for the Magic Kingdom sorcereres game. I would rather wait in a line for an attraction.
I am afraid that having failstates can be very frustrating for guests, as the queues are very long and you don't want to fail only to queue again for hours for another shot.
That's the beauty of these experiences. They're not rides, so there are no queues. Activities like Agent P especially are able to randomize the order of events so that guests are spread out and not clumping up in a specific order. I do agree that fail-states in rides wouldn't work though.
@@MidwaytoMainStreet OhhhH! I didn't know that. I didn't have enough money yet to visit America + Disney World. Well in that case, yes you are 100% right
I certainly agree with you in making more challenging the interactive attractions of the Disney Parks, however, these parks are some of the most visited in the world and particularly WDW receives guests from all around the world and they speak different languages. Interactivity in games such as sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom or Agent P's World Showcase Adventure are easy to understand or offer translated versions for all to enjoy and they could try to make them more challenging. Other attractions like Toy Story Mania and Buzz Lightyear Ranger Spin are very intuitive and fun for everyone too. In cases like Mission Space, Millenium Falcon, etc. including interactive elements that may affect the experience may not be the best idea, even when it sounds great, specially people that don't speak english may get disoriented or worried because they don't understand or they they don't really know what to do. Also in this attractions, you may have to share the vehicle with another party and they get affected by the performance of the other people in the same vehicle. I tell you by my own experience, being a child that didn't speak English and not being able to understand completely what I had to do and being worried. Maybe making it intuitive enough it this idea of more interactivity would work for everyone.
Instead of hard mode it should be called 'critical mode' just like the Kingdom Hearts series. :)
Lose and come back for another round the villains mock the player (giving extra drive to win this time) also inspired by Kingdom Hearts: "Is the 'hero' ready?" "I admire your tenacity"
You make some excellent points here, but I think you're overlooking one thing: the amount of time people spend in the parks. Failing and trying again is valuable, but it takes a while. For example, I'm not good at Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom and it took me 6 hours (over the course of two weeks) to beat it on easy mode. I don't think a family with a week's vacation will spend that kind of time on a single attraction. While a more difficult win is more meaningful, an easy win is more realistic for Disney parks, imo
I think with this, this is why the mode should be separate from the others. There should be modes for those who won't have much time at the parks, but also have more challenging modes for those who live near the parks and visit them often
I think a game without the risk of failure doesn’t allow you to be truly excited or happy about your win and during the game it is degraded to a mundane and uninteresting activity because you don’t care how well you do, always knowing you’ll win- it’s not exciting, that’s why the millennium falcon ride concerns me, although I do at least appreciate the damage system
Mission Space is over 15 years old and didn't have the technology for a branching narrative.
Dragons Lair a game around 36 years old had like 50 kill animations and 1 good end.
why not make a smartphone app that has a little compass and map and hints / the ancears meaning it's not in-game so if kids are stuck a parent can just guide them to the next puzzle if they need it
Having a hardcore mode is not very economical for Disney.
With games being harder, it would take players more time to complete them, so less people would be able to experience the game. And when they lose, it is much less likely these guests would come back to that game, especially if you run to a dead end. Keeping it easy on guests keeps the engagement, the efficiency and statisfaction high, and therefore keeps profit high for that specific ride/game. Changing that makes no sense from a buisness point for Disney.
This is where I think the idea of introducing Disney themed escape rooms would fit nicely with your proposal. Not only would this fit within the parks, Disney Springs, Downtown Disney, etc, I could see it working as regional entertainment destinations. Much like what DisneyQuest was.
0:11 are we just going to gloss over the fact that sonic the hedgehog was at epcot?
Losing is for losers, everytime i go to the arcade i play the game where you put in a dollar and get 4 quarters. I win everytime.
I see you are a sad sad person.
@@cokecolasg5080 woah did you see that?
@@wockyslush3038 yes sadly
@@cokecolasg5080 tard
Mission Space should be renamed Sleep Paralysis Simulation
Love the video, but i do think it's important to note several cons about the existence of a fail state especially in regards to children (And all of these could be solved by just adding a hard mode for adults on instead of changing the existing modes):
-The disney parks are not something kids have infinite time at, and kids still do have a higher expectation of winning than adults
-While many kids do play video games, a lot of kids don't play video games that have a fail state. Many of them play mobile games or games like minecraft where you can pick up again immediately, which again, with limited time at the parks, is not always an option. The same goes for games like fortnite and overwatch, where the kids keep playing over and over and get closer to winning. The park doesn't offer that level of forgiveness in this hypothetical scenario. If the kid loses, they lose forever in many cases where they can't/won't return to the parks for many years if at all.
-Many kids who play video games are a bit older, like, over the age of 8 generally with obviously a lot of outliers, but many of the kids who may be experiencing this being much younger than that
-Disney likes to avoid tantrum-creating circumstances for several reasons we're all well aware of. It's unpleasant for everyone involved and the parents become angry with the park itself for providing it.
-Even in adults, while many of us love that additional challenge, a lot of adults dislike it, and when they encounter that challenge and find it's hard, they quit. Not everyone looks to video games the same way people that play a lot of them do, and many of them just see it as a temporary escape rather than a long term goal-reaching sort of thing. Many of my friends enjoy watching me play video games but hate playing them on their own because they get mad or they feel it's too hard and that they won't be able to improve (which I disagree with, but if you're unwilling to put in that time to improve, obviously you won't). We're all well aware that games like dark souls have a much less widespread appeal than games like minecraft, and generally I think it's because minecraft offers difficulty levels and has no impassable obstacles if your skill level isn't high enough, because you can always just set the game to peaceful.
Basically, I love the idea, but I think it would have been more effective if you introduced it as a completely optional hardcore mode for ALL of the instances. Even then, the curve of difficulty would spike so highly that guests would either try a lower mode first and find its boring and way too easy and assume the hardcore mode is only a bit harder, or they would try hardcore, find it too hard, and then complain about it because they feel it's an experience that was Taken from them rather than one they failed, if that makes sense.
I could talk about video games and difficulty in them all day, but it's also important to note that a good, challenging video game is extremely hard to make and design, whereas a one-track story based game is a lot simpler. From disney's POV, I'm sure offering that hardcore mode is much more trouble than it's worth.
I've just read your comment rob, and I agree with it! I think the term "game" is relatively misleading here, but the same can go for many experiences that are technically video games (like the telltale games you brought up)
I would consider those to be an experience with an illusion of choice or challenge, which seems to be what all of these fall into (even if the illusion of choice or challenge would only be perceived by young children playing it)
I agree! Sorcerers has SO much potential to be something greater than it already is.
I got reservations for galaxy’s edge at Disney land, and it is possible to loose on smugglers run. Everything depends on your performance. The main objective is to steal power cores from a flying train. There are a total of 6 people on one run, 2 pilots, 2 gunners, and 2 engineers. You have to get out of your comfort zone to communicate with your team to get as many power cores you can. The pilots can fly the ship wherever they want. The gunners help shoot other ships trying to get power cores. And the engineers have to repair the ship and grapple onto the train to steal the power cores. It’s really fun, and you can actually loose!
I agree. There needs to be a way to plunge not only myself, but the other 3 poor souls who are stuck with me straight to our deaths on Mission:Space. Though it might be costly for Disney having to remove all the bodies, which could explain why the haven't done it yet. 🤔
the main issue I have with this is that Most people only go to disney once every several years (if not only once or twice in their entire life) and then a loss is a loss. with a normal video game if you lose then you can try again. if you lose a match in fortnie then just queue up for another round. if you die in most games just go back to your last save. also having a lack of a fail state makes it easier for disney to predict how long it'll take for an average person to play with a lot less statistical variation. so that'll make it harder to calculate crowd control and flow
I think you've got a real point here Rob, the TTA podcast really made me want to try sorcerers when I go to MK (and ask for medium difficulty mode first!). I think we need to wait to see how the interactivity of galaxy's Edge plays out. The falcon is already getting some mixed reviews because it's more of a game, but it will be interesting to see if the 'galactic credits' thing actually happens..
I think the problem is that, with failure states introduced to rides, the parks have no control over the length of any ride and risk their income since guests aren't charged by hour
I think the challenge with "losing" isn't the age of children but guest flow. If people could lose it would trigger an even bigger bottleneck at these spots than already exists. You're right, risk and stakes are what makes winning so satisfying. They can add that risk to a ride like smuggler's run because there is a time limit. You can't simply stay on the ride over and over again until you win like you can at a sorcerer battle. Also thanks for your videos, they are one of my favorite things on RUclips.
I am with you for the games to have a fail state as long as you are able to be properly challenged for your age. What is challenging to a 4 year old is not the same as a 24 year old. As a parent, I don't mind something like this upsetting my kid because of failure as much as wasting time having them not being able to complete an impossible task to get to the desired outcome. As long as Disney is able to create level options and properly inform guests of the challenge they are in for at each level, go for it. If you end up with frustrated kids and/or adults who just want to interact with the scenes, then, is it really worth it?
I don't feel it is so much about people being "snowflakes" as people spending their hard-earned money and wanting to get an interactive experience. Many people are only able to visit the parks once every few years or once in their lifetime. Those folks should be to complete the tasks and get the same experience. The other thing about a more challenging adventure is that it will take longer, so if you don't have the easy option, you won't be able to complete it unless you are able to visit quite a bit.
Reset time is also important. meaning the time it takes before you can retry. longer times can be frustrating and parents may not want to sit around while their kid does the same thing over and over again.
maybe the kid can somehow take the game home with them? collect spells in the park and use them when they get home maybe.
I hadn't even considered this topic, but I have to say, I totally agree. I think the ranking system on certain rides is fine (it still sparks competition, at least in my family), but the inability to lose in the quests and challenges is frustrating. It would be awesome if Disney took some of the complex riddles and difficulty that they put into Hidden Mickey hunts into games in the parks. I think that more challenging games and quests would be more fun. A game like Her Interactive's Nancy Drew games would be amazing. Those games give you everything you need to solve the mystery, but if you get stuck, you get stuck. Yes, there is only one outcome, but they still allow you to struggle and problem solve. I would love to see more stuff like that at Disney!
The ride will remember that choice
There is a lot of room to cheat in puzzle game design and make it appear challenging when it really isn't. If a puzzle contains a red herring, the player will either walk right into a trap, and trying something else will provide the solution, so they are left with sensation of overcoming a challenge, or the player will see the trap and try something else from the get go, giving them the feeling of outsmarting the game. If there are enough win paths alongside a more obvious and inviting lose-path, that's how it plays out.
I think beyond cheated puzzle design and collaboration-based challenge approaches that basically cannot be failed, i don't think there's room for actual challenge at such a facility.
They just don't want to deal with crying kids and angry parents. Everybody has to feel good, and the kids can't have their fee fees hurt.
Great video, Rob, and I agree with you on the actual games. Agent P and Sorcerers should have a fail state. But never rides. Especially not simulator rides. As a blind person who loves Disney, I’m dismayed enough over the increasing prevalence of rides that require vision to properly enjoy, though audio description (especially on FOP) helps. But. The thought that my blindness will impact not only my enjoyment of a ride but everyone with me? That’s distressing, and makes me really nervous about Smuggler’s Run, though I’m trying to hold out hope for a work-around for the blind.
Love this idea, Rob! I hope Galaxy's Edge continues in the "losing" manner. Smuggler's Run looks like it will deliver that but I hope more comes out of it. Especially with the ability to use the Datapad in the Play Disney Parks apps. Hopefully losing a game in there will add to your Star Wars Story when you're in the land.
Because all sorts of people go to Disney, I think that there should be easy and hard modes to these game-like experiences. That way, people that want a more laidback time can treat the experiences like a walking tour that they currently are, or people can get really into the challenge. There is nothing wrong with options.
Did Disney stop providing this experience? I never got to try it and the thought of a Hidden Treasure scavenger hunt in the parks gives me goosebumps.
Some of it would depend on how the loss is presented. An overly “mean” or consequential outcome could sour folks on the ride/experience, especially if it’s something they waited a while to do and won’t have an opportunity to try again.
Aren't they supposed to have a fail mode in Millennium Falcon? That would lead cast members to treat you differently based on your results?
Kind of, yup! Not a total fail-state in the sense of "You crashed and died. Game over!" but there are different ways to finish the mission. That's a great way to introduce some weight and importance to interactivity without making it a binary win/lose scenario. It seems like they're capable of doing it with this latest ride, so there's no real reason they can't do the same with these other experiences.
Rob Plays I’m very curious about the implementation of these cast member interactions.. can’t wait for my trip in the fall 🙌
It sounds like the sorcerers game has it right with multiple difficulty options. That way someone who actually wants a challenge and someone else who just wants to see everything up to the ending can both walk away happy.
So basically, Disney should add escape rooms as upcharge attractions?
I've actually thought about this for a while and it just sounds awesome.
aMondayMorning perhaps they could do one themed on Alice in Wonderland. That would be interesting.
With some of these attractions also consider that you would loose if they don't fully fill the ride vehicle.
Love the message of this video! Playing down to children is a big mistake. They will try to understand and challenging them is far better
Who else listened to the podcast and got excited to see this. Such an interesting topic. Love the channel and podcast.
I wouldn't be surprised if Disney was cautious about making their guests feel bad if they lose. That said, there are ways to make losing potentially more fun than winning - and they probably have a few ideas on how to do that with the Millennium Falcon attraction. Maybe you took too many hits, you have to take a safer alternate route, and Lando calls in saying "Not a scratch - that's the last time I lend the Falcon out to anyone", or some other amusing line.
There's also the issue of tourists who are coming to WDW as a "once in a lifetime" thing, so they can't afford to lose in an interactive experience if it means wasting hours on it instead going on rides and shows.
I just rode Mission Space for the first time yesterday, and my only complaint was how I had no actual control over the ride experience. When they activate manual override on the shuttle controls, it just feels like I should have more control over the experience. I can’t wait to see how the new Star Wars ride turns out!
As a mother of 6 children from ages 27 to 2 I agree having to lose and try again teaches them they need to work harder and try harder to get what they want in life... let's get back to kids being rewarded for effort and ability and not for showing up
@A J so true... and I live here ... maybe we should retrain out kids to be humans again and not snowflakes and melt down at every turn lol
Kids may enjoy video games and enjoy challenges but there’s one thing you forgot: raging. I have a younger brother and sister and even though they like challenging video games, they start screaming when they lose. Losing all your progress in a difficult game will make many children angry and put them in a very bad mood, which is the opposite of what Disney intends with these games which were made (especially in the Agent P game) as a distraction for younger children while older kids and adults enjoy a more mature aspect of the parks.
it wouldn't be the happiest place on earth if you lost
Kinda reminds me of this Disney handheld game system they were offering one time I went to the park. (Around the early 2000s I think) You started with one, and it used some kind of wireless communication that would unlock games based on certain attractions as you got close to them. The games were simple, but some were really fun. It gave you something fun to do while waiting in line, at least.
Now, if you didn't unlock all the games in the duration of your stay they would all automatically unlock after a week. (There was also a button combination that I think was printed in the instruction booklet that would unlock them all instantly.) So technically, there isn't much of a fail state here either, but I think this was ultimately a good idea. It gave you a fun side quest to do while in the park, and if you couldn't make it in time, (or couldn't make it to all the parks) you wouldn't be stuck with the regret of having a device with most of its content locked behind an arbitrary wall.
Was it this thing? www.mainstgazette.com/2008/04/were-on-mission.html
Disney Land has always had really cool interactive stuff like as a kid I remember seeing a Bug's Life show in 4D. Then there was the Disney Character personality test.
What about the Wilderness Explorer challenge at AK? I once saw a kid who had collected all of the stickers be awarded the special title at the end of a hard-fought journey through the park and he couldn’t have been more proud of himself!
The lack of losing on Mission Space is partly why I have only ridden it twice in the dozens of times I've been to Epcot, even when I was a kid. Who wants to spend a ride pressing random flashing buttons with no return value? It's at the level of a toddler playing with a toy cash register. You're exactly right, it does insult the intelligence of everybody older than 3. It's nice that Smuggler's Run is a truly interactive ride, but it didn't give me any reason to care about the outcome. That might change if I ride it again and get the position of pilot. For me it didn't live up to its hype as a virtual reality arcade game, but it was a step in the right direction.
I've barely played any video games in my life, but you don't have to be a hardcore gamer to appreciate the universal truth that winning a game is sweeter when you can lose. I loved the Buzz Lightyear ride when I was a kid because it was always fun to compare scores with my family and to hope to beat the daily high scores. That is a perfect example of how Disney can make something competitive without being unattainable to kids or foreigners. If there's no competitive aspect in a game, it quickly becomes b-o-r-i-n-g.
Not related to your video topic, but another reason I'm not a fan of Mission Space is the simulator design - no simulator will ever replicate the heart-dropping, wind-in-your-hair sensations of roller coasters and drop rides. I am really glad to see they are building new roller coasters at Magic Kingdom and Epcot and I can't wait to see what the next few years bring.
Brilliantly written, brilliantly executed. Point brilliantly made. This is a masterwork of RUclips.
I liked the idea that Michael Kay had for Millennium Falcon Smugglers Run.
We already know that there are several outcomes, depending on how you, and your crew perform, but it would be even better if they can roll the experience in with your magic band or Disney Play app to make it more personal. Instead of a one off experience, you carry that score/rank with you.
The worse you perform, the narrative/story might change slightly for you, as well as if you are a high ranking crew member. Maybe animatronics recognize and react (we already know that disney is able to identify you from a decent distance from your magic band)
Maybe this also changes the way the rest of Batuu reacts to you. By having a high rank, you are able to interact better with the planet, or even things like getting addressed with a rank in your name.
It creates a needed divide, but every person with a lower rank has the opportunity to improve on it. It creates a more competitive arena to want to perform well when you ride so you can unlock the advantages of being a higher rank.
Up here in Boston, we've got a live-action puzzle complex called 'Boda Borg' there the philosophy is for you to quickly fail over and over again until you finally figure it out. Makes finally winning very satisfying.
I love the menehune trail at aulani. It was such a fun and beautiful interactive trail for me. Lizards would dance in the lights, paintings would come to life, lava would surround you inside a volcano and menehune would give you gifts. 🙃👍
wait! does this mean that you completed medium and hard mode of sorcerers? Cool!
I think that your idea is completely feasible. The ones who have already done easy, medium and hard mode are probably people who like challenges. I seriously doubt that if they get to unblock a super hard mode they would dislike to loose. They already invested hours playing these games and won't quit for having to re do a level. Anyway, we can all dream.
One thing I will say, at the end of mission space there is the game where two sides battle eachother and you can lose, I know this cause I once lost 12 games in a row lol
Rob. You have hit the nail on the head with this video. Keep up the good work!!!
I think this is a great proposition! I hate when a game feels too easy and anything you do will still give a set ending. I would rather have a hard game that the outcome is determined by the player and the ability to lose, so I %100 agree with you
The problem with Disney creating a losing environment is that is goes against Disney's facade of "happiest place on earth". They don't want to create an environment that is going to cause negative feelings (so much so that they have ridiculous strict rules and regulations for their staff to follow) for their attendees. the mere thought of having a child, or anyone for that matter, upset because they lost at a game is just unacceptable to them.
I think this would work better in Disneyland since there’s locals. They’re be more inclined to play more vs a game they win every time they go.
The main issue I see with your proposal is that it would take up too much time trying to beat the games for some people, and the parks are way to crowded for one person to spend 45 min. trying to advance to the next level. That's what they should have used DisneyQuest for
I agree with this so much, I think Galaxy's Edge is going to be a good test into this. From failing the mission on the Falcon, and also the data =pad missions.
You can lose in the Sorcerers of the magic kingdom, especially in level 2.
Dennis Pozzi That shit always beats my ass.
That's why I would love to see a park built around a cohesive narrative and the outcome each day is reflected in the night show. One where the hero's win and one where the villian prevailed. Like Galaxy's Edge level interactivity spread out over an entire park with a Beastly Kingdom anesthetic.... Shame Disney has an IP driven CEO, otherwise this could be a thing. Oh well
That would be pretty interesting- like, maybe have an overall nighttime show, but then have a segment of the show based on the outcome of some particular game that people played that varies per night but seamlessly blends with the rest of the show. Kind of how Star Tours "seamlessly" blends the visiting of 3 different lands with transitional scenes except just going into a particular show sequence. It would have to be firework-free, though and maybe just done through projections and music and lighting (and maybe flamethrowers), because fireworks are actually expendable and it would be a pain to have to get each scenario ready or even predict which one would prevail on which night since I'm pretty sure they don't buy fireworks nightly, they probably have a huge store of them somewhere. But it would be a neat concept!
Speaking of games you should make a video about the time Epcot Center had a Kim Possible themed game
2 Ghosts that was so fun lol I remember the crappy flip phones they would give you and it made my time in the world showcase mote fun when I was little. My mom could get a drink and I could try to do the game
Bryton Up I did it as a kid too!!!!!
Bryton Up Kim Possible is my fave Disney show of all time. The live action remake is the worst of all the Disney remakes.
If i wasnt lacking in time when i went to EPCOT in april, i totally wouldve done the entire Perry game. Im 15 and I still adore Phineas and Ferb and I wish I couldve found all of the awesome figures hidden in World Showcase
This reminds me much of Magiquest. In a sub game of Magiquest, Compassquest, you are given a compass and you must solve a lot on your own given you played the main Magiquest story. It’s a very hard game for many children as they cry about how they cannot finish it even if they have the clues. Children as old as preteens cannot figure it out. As much as it seems fun to have a challenging game, children cannot always figure it out. It’s totally fine to always have easy mode and sometimes hard mode isn’t fun. My fiancé (he’s 30) who tried to defeat one of the main bosses for Magiquest couldn’t figure out how to defeat him and almost had a temper tantrum, he figured it out of course. But children mostly want to play not all want a difficult task.
How to Lose at Disney World
Wait in line for Stitch's Great Escape
Oh wait that's gone now.
I’ve had this same issue with the void at Disney springs (which, I know, isn’t done by Disney but...) and I agree fail states would make all of these interactive experiences better
Do you think they need to make the games super casual because you're likely going to be in a group with people who aren't playing (like parents) and most players aren't able to dedicate the amount of time required if the games were more challenging?
I know this is an older video from this channel, but smugglers run did just that, we only got two containers.
Have you done The Void? It is fun, but also has no fail state which did make it feel kinf of hollow.
Yup and I totally agree. That's one experience where I understand that people likely wouldn't drop more money to try again. However that'd be a perfect opportunity to do a branching narrative. That way you finish the experience one way or another, but the narrative story is altered by how well or poorly you play.
What a great video! I go to WDW a few times a year and those games never appealed to me because there is not a big reward. I go like the World Showcase seasonal scavenger hunts, at least when they still gave out those plastic eggs in the spring. But then again, you don't have to complete your map correctly to earn that scavenger hunt prize! I find the park games are a way to kill time; something supplemental to other activities. I always did the egg scavenger hunt because I would go during spring break (so during flower and garden) and eat around the world, and while digesting I would search for the eggs.
While I would love the challenge and think it totally makes sense to have a way to fail there are two problems I see having to deal with. Number one is the difficulty level. There are a lot of kids in Disney. Making something easy enough not to discourage them but hard enough not to be seen as arbitrary and about as meaningless as pressing the buttons in mission space for adults may prove very challenging. Also, last time I went on mission space we had a party of 3 and there was no single rider to fill the 4th seat. So those buttons couldn’t be pressed. You don’t want to have the mission be failed simply because there was no one there to do the action. That would be unfair to the riders.
This video reminds me of Disney Quest. In Disney Quest half of the attractions you could fail and for some it was easy to lose.
I wish that mission space had a losing state, and because of that I tend to do the opposite of what they say to do, I just wish they add a losing state later on
They had a haunted mansion game box that sort of offered this. If you couldn't solve the puzzles, you didn't get the prize (a fast pass to the ride).
You can never understand the thrill of victory, until you experience the heartbreak of defeat.
I am against the Mission Space idea and also not a fan of what they did in Smuggler's Run and here's why. Unless you are traveling with 3 other people you know, you are playing with strangers. When I rode it, the pilots just came from the cantina and had had a few too many and most of the time all they could do is laugh and apologize for not doing the controls. It takes away from the experience if people you don't know are ducking it up. I was annoyed my one time to ride the ride, I got Drunk 1 and Drunk 2 as the pilots.
Now that said, the idea about the video games I like. There's no reason those 1 player games shouldn't be challenging or loseable.
I wonder what Walt would of think of children’s organized sports today ( T-ball, soccer etc) you didn’t win one game, But Here’s a Trophy...Your team finished in last place, But Here’s a Trophy....
It’s kind of where we are as a country right now....Sad...But Here’s a Trophy !
I hope that the Millenium Falcon has a 'fail state' if you don't complete the mission.
Mission Space - I'm not going to die or allow my family to die all because some stranger either cluelessly doesn't know what to do, or doesn't understand English, or is simply flat out not there. I'm pressing that button for them! The Challenger didn't have autopilot to correct whatever failed. And as a Tesla owner, I can tell you that autopilot is just an extra safety measure, a novelty. You can't trust it, or rely on it. The danger is still there. I rode Mission Space before there even was an orange. Back when people were going to the hospital after riding. I am pressing that button! You have ONE job. Can't do it, I don't want you in my crew!
Active and impactful role in the narrative? Funny that you used Overwatch and League of Legends footage for that bit. I have to wonder if Disney will ever turn Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom into an actual, physical card game. They could hire Studio Dice.
I’ve been to Disney World many times and not once had I heard about any of these attractions. I’m stumped.
Hey! Im the person who asked what park would you take you child to (in the TTA podcast) What I meant in that question was you could have one day to go to one park. One park overall. :)
From a lot of vlogs I have who experienced Galaxy’s Edge and Smuggler’s Run, they appear to incorporated a lot of what you suggest in this vlog. But there is an argument that many visitors are not yet aware or can fully experience these components while at Black Spire / Battu in the four hours allotted in current visits.
Have you experienced it yet ? Thoughts ?