Roman Pilum Vs Celtic Javelin Tests
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- In this video we put the pilum and Celtic / Viking javelin to the test to see which delivers the most damage against our crash test dummy Norman.
Materials;
Shaft; Ash
Main Material; Mild Steel
Finish; Beeswax, Linseed Oil
To see how we went about making both the Pilum and the Javelin Click on the links below.
Javelin Video;
• Forging a Viking Javelin
Roman Pilum Video;
• Forging a Roman Pilum
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Cheers Guys
Glad I finally got to see a Pilum in action. When I saw this type of weapon for the first time, I could only imagine what kind of damage they could do in the hands of someone who knew how to wield it. Good stuff.
The Pilum was created by Marius during the Cimbrian Wars of 113 BC. Great weapon, designed not to thrown back, as it had lead forged into the iron at the shaft, where it joined the wood, making it bend. I can imagine it was horrible to try and pull out of someone's body. Great example and great video. I found this video while studying for my degree course in military history at AMU. Thanks
Nah, the pilum was designed to punch/penetrate deeper into shields/bodies
The bending part was just an added bonus
It wasnt created by Marius... Pilum was quite old, even old Etruscans used it.. Romans just adopted it as they always did...
the bending is a myth, there is no archeological proofs that substiantiate that. Also there are multiple hypotesis for where the pilum comes from, the most probable one is that it was created by the Etruscans, since the oldest pilum recovered, dating back to the fifth century BC, was found in Vulci.
Was the pilum designed to stick in the shield and stop the soldier using it properly? Also the metal shaft would be soft metal and the wood shaft weight causing the pilum to bend.
What I want to know is how long it took to make that riveted chainmail just to mess it up with spears and javelins.
I think the pilum won pretty easily.
The Roman’s new what worked and what didn’t
Battle tested and solder recommended
2:04 , Ahhhhhhhhhhh! 😵😵
pilum was not designed to be thrown and pulled out of a target multiple times you can even see the pilum bending.
But it could be retrieved at the end of battle and easily repaired.
Imagine the broken bones in even glancing blows.... thanks for using legitimate Mail, too!!
The first roman pilum throw is to remove the shield and stop the charge. The second pilum throw's purpose is to kill or seriously injure the enemy, making clean up with the gladius easy work. There I go again, another day thinking of the glory of Rome.
Or better yet, the pilum does as fully intended and penetrates not only the shield but also the person holding it with a foot or so of metal thanks to the long head.
Did you know that the Roman Pilium was designed to penetrate then bend.This would make the enemy`s shield impractical to use so they`d have to discard it + it then couldn`t be used (effectively)to throw back at the Romans.
This is disputed.
Yep, depends entirely on the scholar. No Roman source tells us the pila were designed to bend or were fragile enough to be warped.
it was designed to penetrate but not bend, the bending was just a unintended effect, which is why roman sources talk about it as if it was something unexpected or special
I personally believe that the length of steel in pilum was designed that way so if it penetrates shield it could reach the person behind it more easily while saving it's momentum and having a good chance to injure person behind protection.
Sweet, two of my favorite weapons in the same video.
interesting video, but it must be prefaced with the introduction, which indicate whether the quality of the metal lugs historical, to determine the physical capabilities and skills test, to characterise the shield, the armor, putting what they're made of and how much is historical, the size of the coils and thickness of wire. The rings of the chain mail are too large, which makes it easier to penetrate the Pilum, it is more like a baidana, in my lands the rings of chain mail and armor were from half an inch or less.
In other videos, shields were pierced with Darts with significant penetration. And the person set the task to show the protective capabilities of their shields.
i believe the romans used the pilum on a charging opponent, rather than a stationary one. do you think it would have any changes in performance/outcome if the mannequin is moving towards you?
ruclips.net/video/ZxY3CzN2Kkc/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/ZxY3CzN2Kkc/видео.html
Would have massive changes it also means the sheild is unusable as the enemy would be unable to pull it out so would have to abandon the shield
And the pillum was a "unic use". Rome made this because they want a weapon was not used against themself. A pillum is a more strategic weapon, not a "letal" one. (Of course, you don't understand anything a sad hahahahah)
yes, and when it stuck in the shield, the shaft will drop down and wedge in the ground, stopping the opponent, and he will be pushed into the point by the following soldiers
Can you plz upload a video that how to make pilum
damn, that mail held great
Iam from Egypt
I like your channel so much
We don't care
The question again is, why a superior weapon got less popular not more over time as classical age moved to medieval age?
Logistics, I'd guess, the Roman Empire was capable of logistical feats and standardization that was unmatched until the later medieval era. That and the transition away from professional armies to feudal ones made up of nobles and serfs.
My theory is material cost, the amount of iron used for a roman pilum is significantly more than what is needed for the head of a javelin for a fairly marginal increase in penetration, likely meaning that a javelin is much more cost effective and can be mass produced more easily if needed. Just my guess
Medieval Eurooeans used Germanic/Norse weapons because they had been using them and military tactics suitable to such kind of combat. Different traditions.
Some shields received steel facings. I imagine this changed its effectiveness?
@@BlueCR055 Yes, but Italy was also part of medieval Europe. And they too stoped using the pilum. I don't think that has all that much to do with traditions and more, as stated before, with know how and cost effectiveness.
The pilum is my favourite Roman weapon since its purpose was to puncture shields and render them useless
If you have trouble finding where you hit some armor try putting light paper over it. The torn paper should clearly mark the impact (and shouldn't change the penetration depth if it happens.)
1:12 did pilum just jumped little down on shield?
It looks like it at first, but it the entire shield rocking back a bit, watch it a .25 speed and you'll see.
Pilum directly bent easily on impact, or the fixing wooden pin broke......pulled off the shield.
It works as intended, the bending causes a fixed wedge that cannot be removed
Can we somehow convince an olympic javelin thrower to have a go at this?
@2:10 ouch, you really hate Norman
"Materials: shaft;" say no more im listening
I thought the Pilum was pretty much a single use weapon. The whole purpose was to have the spearhead break off on impact thus rendering it useless as a counter weapon.
Not quite to break on impact but rather impossible to get out from the receivers shield.The opponent has two options either drop the shield or as you said break the spear thus making it pointless to counter attack and this just gives more time for Romans to close their distance
AFAIK it was designed to pierce the shield, then the soft iron shaft would bend under the weight of the heavy haft, leaving both the shield useless and the bent pilum unuseable for throwing back at the romans (it could only be repaired and resused easily AFTER the battle was done.) To me, that means differentially hardening only the point not the slender shaft behind it.
If he had made the head to bend or break on impact he would have had to make a new pilum for every throw. He is wanting to show the penetrating power. Hence a pilum that can be used multiple times for testing purposes
why the loud music???
The spear is to light in weight
Я думаю ,если пилум и метали , то в спину убегающего врага. Основное назначение пилума - ближний рукопашный бой. Для метания били лёгкие дротики : пила и плюмбата.
.45" in diameter the .45 has always been a man stopper ;)
My 4.5" has always been a woman stopper.
You like the groin shot
pity about the loud music
Sweet 😆😇😈👻💪
imagine if all romans could throw like tom brady
What would the roman pilum equivalent of a deflated football be?
@@grimmexpectations6743 poison tipped maybe. Or dipped in poo
Legionarys trained every day with a heavier pilum, so I guess they where very good at it, different from the guy in the video.
why didn't they had fletchings like an arrow?
more expensive to made
they began doing this in the late middle ages
@@jothegreek If the romans invaded the celts in UK back in the day ... and there Pilums worked better ... why wouldent the celts just copy them ? Something is missing here ?
@@savagex466-qt1io industry and economy
@@jothegreek No way bud. Its not that much more iron for the roman javlin. Somethings missing here.
If this is as efective against mail gamberson and shield then why it was abandoned
Was it abandoned, though?
@@Colesign yes, the Byzantine starts using darts and javelins instead of pilum. It was probably due to the influx of barbaric mercenaries that influenced the weapon manufacturing management to change to a barbaric weapon for their new non roman soldiers who are more familiar to their darts and javelins instead of the ronan pila.
Because they realized that having throwing spears that do the same job as piercing arrows is pretty damn stupid, they take too much space and don't travel far like arrows. Javelins became ballista darts later
@@brassbucket1998 javelins doesn't do the job of arrows. Javelins are used to Pierce the enemy's shield in order for them to discard their shield, due to the fact that a pilum is stuck onto it that it becomes unwieldy.
@@velstadtvonausterlitz2338 First , yes they do. Second, a spear already does that. Put a spear on a horse and boom, no more need for javelins. And then no more heavy usage of shields since cavalry became very popular, choosing pikes instead
That music reminds me of every irish pub I've ever been to, especially in Dublin - they all have some dreadful band set up in a corner banging out awful noise like that.
what is the music in the background?
ruclips.net/video/C9tT3n0MUEs/видео.html
forgettable.
@@dcgsoryuu thx a lot
were the chainmail rings in your sample riveted, butted, or welded? If it wasn't riveted or welded - not a "good" historically accurate test of penetration resistance ... in my uneducated opinion
It's 9mm riveted
I don’t mean to be an ass but it zooms in on the mail and you can see the rivets
@@andrescrespo2514 you say that..... yet your comment betrays you. I asked - he answered - your keen eyed opinion .... was not needed.
@@Madmartigan1 well you should get your eyes checked because you clearly can’t see, don’t be mad that you asked a very dumb question.
@@andrescrespo2514 ....so instead of just letting it go - you feel the need to continue to be exactly what you apparently falsely claimed that you didn't want to be....thus confirming that in fact ...you really and truly ARE a fopdoodle. Nice work.
I thought the pilum was designed to break once used so the enemy couldn’t use it?
That's a theory from modern scholars based upon the design of the pilum and some ancient sources saying the pila were bent or difficult to extract. Although it has been accepted by the archeological/scholarly community, no period source from Roman times substantiated the claim in such a way that we know for a fact pila were designed to bend on impact.
@@4rnnr_as It was an unintended effect, its actual design was based to penetrate shields
Bent, not break. When it stuck into the shield the weight imbalance brings the pilum to the ground stopping the advance of grunts holding shields. The intention was to make it as hard to extract as possible and unable to reuse immediately, and well as rendering penetrated shields useless.
@@benlex5672 The intention was to penetrate not bend. Bending was an unintended effect when a pilum was stuck in a shield, that's why you see our sources talk about it as if it was surprising
it only bends when threw at a shield, try throwing one at a germanic pressboard shield (not saying you have to)
Is it butted mail?
Of course not!!
Modern chainmail use in this video is thin
Clearly the Pilum shows better penetration than the Javelin. Also, either one sticks firmly in the shield, showing that the bizarre theory that pila were designed to disable shields is BS.
It's hardly BS. The pilum (on almost anything other than thick wood) will pass straight through, either impaling the shield-holder or making the shield far to heavy and or cumbersome to hold. Further, the length of the pilum when caught in a shield or armored body act like a long stake making even more difficult to move. The shape of the head and rounded shaft make them difficult to remove. The only misnomer that has been debunked within the last few years is that the pilums were intentionally made of soft iron intended to bend after minor penetration. Shield fouling was likely an obvious part of what made this killing tool even more successful.
The pilum is more effective because it's a anti shield and can slow down shields
remember this test is inaccurate, in order for the pila to be tested properly the shield also needs to have momentum moving towards the thrower to simulate a charge, then the pila would use the momentum of the shield bearer against itself and multiply the impact force causing even greater penetration
Both do penetrate but the design of the pilum makes it all but impossible to pull out of a shield. Especially in battlefield conditions, it rendered the shield useless leaving the combatant with no defense.
@@felix44971 You miss the point. The javelins would be thrown at ~10-20 meters just before the lines clashed. In order to pull the javelin from the shield you’ve got to put the shield down & pull it out, or have your buddy do it. The Pilum, penetrating completely and with long metal shank, would guide itself out when pulled, unlike a common javelin which would “stick”.
You sir, forge like a master but throw like a girl.
Oi, lol you saying i wont make it to the olympics this year :-(
@@phoenixforge5944 From what i have learned and if it is correct the javelins would be thrown from about 20 metres at your opponant. Before i read this the first time i threw a celtic javelin i was expecting to reach 40 to 50 meters and was rather dissapointed at reaching 20 to 25 metres.
In that case consider standing in front of him while he chucks spears at you.
It should be noted that despite the Romans technically superior weaponry and battlefield tactics that they knew better than to mess with the Irish.🤣
Well, they were never going to harvest enough tax there. So they didnt bother.
The Irish and Scots weren't worth the trouble. They had nothing, produced nothing, offered nothing. Rome wanted tribute - not foul weather and poor backward peasants. Plenty of Scots immigrated to Roman England for exactly the same reasons: Civilization
The Roman's chased them all over England with their ROMAN EMPEROR but had to stop cause he got sick with the barbarians disease. The Scottish/Irish queen was called out by the Empress of of Rome for being a Pincushion of men in bed. The Irish/Scottish queen replied by saying that Irish/Scottish women sleep with only the best of men.
who conquered the world??????? the Pilum of course........
Pilum is celtic , from celtic spain
Utterly barbaric LIES. ROMA AETERNA.
@@Sandderad very , little thought of as roman , actually was ..... almost the entire roman look came from somwhr else
@@brianmacc1934 This one's a barbarian spy, you can tell by their illiteracy, don't believe their lies! Ave Senātus Populusque Rōmānus!
Why ancient people used javelins when bow and arrows already existed (longer range)?
Roman Pilum was used for charging enemy shields. Once you throw it at shield it most cases would make it unusable during charge, and your option is to throw it away and continue charge without protection.
Bows took a lot more training to use than a thrown weapon, it took years to be able to master something like a longbow.
@@anti-ponyassociation2444 thats one good reason.
another point: javelin is much more faster and cheaper to produce than a bow with a killing potential. Javelin has higher mass. If you hit an unarmored part or some lightly armored fella the damage would be the same or maybe even greater as with the bow. All depends on the kind of the bow and arrow/javelin. Same stuff with slings.
Javelin is more versatile in cqb as well
The wood shafts for the pilum and javelin are too short / thin.
dont use music, it ruins the legitimacy
Shields can save you from javelins but not from warbows or crossbows. That's why they dissapeared in europe
An otherwise good video that was ruined by horrible music. If you think you have great music, do a music video.