Shoutout to marz on the d Wade love. He gets overshadowed unfortunately because of his era but dude was special. He’s literally the reason I fell in love with basketball.
2:33:23 A big issue with KD is that his production doesn't really exist in a vacuum. In the Playoffs in GSW he puts up 32 ppg on 64%-66% TS with estimated scoring TOV% of 7%-8% in a basketball environment where he wasn't the no. 1 option in terms of defensive coverage. In any other situation where he is the no. 1 option in defensive attention in the Playoffs he's averaging 29 ppg on 58%-59% TS with estimated scoring TOV% of 10%-11%, a becomes a turnover machine overall as a playmaking engine. Would have Kobe ahead of KD in Peak simply on the fact that Kevin Durant's production in Golden State is synthetic. He didn't become THAT MUCH better of player in GSW comparatively to the rest of his career, it just became a lot easier to play basketball comparatively to anywhere else. Also Kobe's production in LA is far more empirical as a no. 1 Offensive engine than anything from Durant as no. 1 option. Side Note: John D & Carson have KD over KG, too? Hard disagree, borderline ridiculous.
i think the 'narrative' of kd not being the no.1 option in terms of defensive coverage is not entirely true. but i also think its ridiculous to ignore how much KD benefitted from GS. but i also also think its disingenuous to ignore how questionable of a job okc did in building a roster around KDs skillset and how unlucky he has been.
Great show Marz and John D!!! Shoutout to the nerd sesh guy love the show!!!!! And I wanna a defensive peak show too and how players skill sets impact their eras
I think it's important to make a distinction between defensive ability and defensive impact when talking about superstars. Team don't want their primary scoring option spending their energy guarding the best player on the opposing team, so they will try to hide them on weaker offensive players. If a player is guarding the weakest offensive player on the opposing team, and that weak player is taking 5-6 shots, how much are they actually impacting the outcome of the game? I think in general superstar bigs are the only ones able to have a big impact on the defense every game, while perimeter players only impact the defense in certain matchups or if teams try to run certain schemes.
My Top 10 Peaks of the Past 25years!… 1)Shaq 2)LeBrick 3)Kobe 4)Garnet 5)Duncan 6)Jokic 7)Kawhi 8)Curry 9)Durant 10)Giannis Honourable Mentions; D. Wade, Harden, Nowitzki, Harden, Luka, CP3, McGrady, Melo & Iverson!…
I agree with the idea that since player A. Is an a 8/10 offence player and and and 8/10 defender and player B. Is an 9/10 offence player but a 6/10 defender player A is automatically better. I see it like a video game, the XP to level up from 8 to 9 is almost the same amount of XP needed to go from a 5 to 7.5. There is a large gap that can’t be quantified simply by the fraction out of 10 between a good or elite offensive player and an all time offensive player.
@LonelyHoops I think offence and defence need to be measured by impact Just because Hakeem is seen as a 10/10 defender doesn’t means he should be 10/10 Hakeem value of defence hypothetically is the equivalent of let’s say the offensive value of a Karl Malone Karl Malone would bring 8/10 value from offence and Hakeem would bring 8/10 value from defence if that makes sense and that’s what they should be rated as. I hate this talk of well a 10/10 defender isn’t as valuable as a 8/10 offensive player huh? Makes 0 sense just rate them on defence equivalent to the value they bring The player that brings more value from both sides of the ball is the better player (usually I’m not considering fit and port in this example) so if your more of an outlier on one side I don’t believe your better if your a clear negative on the other (Steve Nash is a perfect example) a neutral to positive defensive value rockets him up for peaks for me but alas as much of an outlier he is on offence their is a lot of value being bled that weakens a team I hope this makes sense but I can see reading this would be confusing I have more thoughts on the matter but in case someone reads this, this is it for now
Peaks of the last 25 years IMO: 1. Shaq 99-02 2. Lebron 10-14(his longevity is ridiculous and this is when his defense was at its best so I went with this version) I think 3-7 can be switched and debated : 3. KG 01-05(he suffered from the teams not always being good during this time ) 4. Duncan 99-03 5. Kobe 03-08(minus 04 cause of the missed time teams weren’t always the best during this time) 6. Jokic 21-present(favorite player currently so argue with a wall and he could move up) 7. Steph 16-21(2020 when he got hurt) 8. Giannis 18-23(could move up) 9. KD 13-18 10. Idk it could be Wade 06-10, Cp3 08-13, Harden 16-20, Kawhi 17-20(minus 18 when he was hurt) etc..Honestly most of these are relative. I took into consideration mostly just how good these players are overall, competition they faced, eras how difficult it was for these guys to do what they did etc..
Finally KD actually getting some respect it’s hard being a KD fan with all the surface level slander and nobody ever really analyzing who KD was and how close he’s came to success as a number 1 option
The point marz made about bron as a rim protector and not having a true big (in his prime) that protected the paint at an elite level is something i havent really considered in some time. I always think about his switch abilitiy more so than his rim protection and he absolutely was a great rim protector in his prime.
He only needs atleast one HoF player, one All NBA player, one All Defense player, and one All Star. If he has that, he might win a Chip. Altho he did lose with 2 HoF teammates, and he was the one that laid an egg.
@penkima4923 yeah I mean this is regard to "prime" LeBron. LeBron at his peak. Idk if anyone could argue that Lakers bron is prime bron but absolutely he did at that point. Maybe I should reword that.
i didn’t know about mike james before mars mentioned him. bro is the most random player to average 20 and 6 on 46% fg and 44% from three. like these are amazing stats especially for 2005. then come to find out he literally never averaged more than 10 points a game after that season😭
the 05/06 season was a contract year for him and minnesota of all teams fell for the fake 20ppg and gave him a 4 year 20+ million dollar deal (another sign of twolves ineptitude) and then he never came close to replicating that ability ever again. KG never had it easy man
Only thing about this episode that I’d disagree with is how one of the guys compared “being an offensive #1” with the concept of scaling well. Oftentimes it’s the skills found in great offensive #2s and great defensive players that allows guys to scale well. Being an offensive #1 helps, but that’s not the primary skill for scaling, meanwhile guys like KG bring transition offense, lob catching, pick and pop, some of the best defensive value of all time, etc. Not to say Jokic doesn’t do those things, far from it, and not saying he is better or worse than KG, just this concept I wanted to push back on. Great episode otherwise.
08-10 Kobe to me was his best. He was very well rounded imo his defense wasnt the same but I’m stretches he was very good. Seeing that in real time was special
yo marz quick question but what were you trying to say when comparing steve nash, magic and jokic in terms of passing/offensive weapons. Were you saying; A: Their ability to actually pass read defences so they can deliver the pass is tier one even above those like lebron OR B: Them as offensive players are better than guys like lebron, steph etc. Simply because they can manipulate defences based on their strengths I think you said not even lebron is in that tier but if you were referring to A, i would offer push back as weve seen lebron read defences like no one else, adjust to schemes on the fly and create the easiest looks for his teammates that would be comparable or better than any of those three at his offensive peak (2016-2020) If you were referring to B then i think again lebron steph and even MJ could get into that tier 1 based on their scoring gravity which I think is more dangerous than any of the three you gave, MJ as a scoring threat is so relentless that If you dont double he would just torch his defender and if you do double he would make that pass to the open man. His driving threat and mid range jumpers make him genuinely damn near hard to guard. I can understand in vacuum players like steve nash or even jokic based on their playstyle are just unstoppable but its hard to base these off of "in a vacuum" . Steve nash wasnt as score heavy as he should have been and he did say it himself, maybe if he did apply more pressure or took more threes he would be the "offensive number 1" that i guess you think he is. But i think in that case that we would be talking about a different player. The whole vacuum argument just in general (not saying you made it) is so hard to process cause in that case wouldnt someone like KD be the best player ever, but we dont say that cause we've seen his limitations (how he can be knocked off his spots, denied the ball, settled for jumpers, lack of ball handling etc) Same with Jokic i think he even has his weaknesses as he can be TOO willing to pass and isnt as dominant in being aggressive as a scorer as he can. Whereas i think players like lebron and even to a certain degree MJ theres that balance of applying pressure as a scorer and also as a playmaker that i think jokic takes the playmaking part a bit too much. Hope you see what i mean and if i interpreted what you said incorrectly then my apologies but this has been fun to talk about and type. Would like to see a video like this again its always good talking about nuances in basketball and the individual rather than "HE WON" " HE LOST"
the way i meant it was the passing volume and how much and how valuable what they found/created with their passing was. i think jokic magic and nash are in a tier by themselves when it comes to a combination of those 3 things. thats the broad scale i could get into more minute things but they all fall under these umbrella terms in some way or another
my top 23 what do you disagree most with marz? (I could probably change or shorten some years but yeah) 1. LeBron James (2012-2020) 2. Shaquille O'Neal (2000-2002) 3. Stephen Curry (2015-2022) 4. Nikola Jokić (2020-2024) 5. Kobe Bryant (2006-2010) 6. Tim Duncan (2001-2005) 7. Kevin Garnett (2003-2007) 8. Kevin Durant (2014-2018) 9. Giannis Antetokounmpo (2018-2024) 10. Kawhi Leonard (2016-2021) 11. James Harden (2017-2020) 12. Dwyane Wade (2006-2011) 13. Luka Doncic (2020-2024) 14. Dirk Nowitzki (2005-2011) 15. Anthony Davis (2017-2022) 16. Joel Embiid (2019-2023) 17. Chris Paul (2008-2015) 18. Russell Westbrook (2015-2020) 19. Steve Nash (2005-2008) 20. Dwight Howard (2008-2012) 21. Tracy McGrady (2001-2004) 22. Allen Iverson (2001-2006) 23. Jason Kidd (2000-2004)
I think some of the guys y’all are referring who generated better shots for their teammates than Kobe had the luxury of playing in a more spaced out era and actually having floor spacers on the floor during their peaks. Going off what you guys determined Kobe’s peak to be 06-08 those teams were really constructed to have great floor spacing. Also have to remember the era how teams were allowed to deploy certain defenses that you couldn’t today because of the way teams are constructed and the rules. I think it’s a bit disingenuous the way some talk about aspect of Kobe’s game during that time. I think Giannis being above Kobe peak for peak is a tad bit ridiculous same for Luka(couldn’t remember if he was above or below). I personally would have Kobe’s peak 03-08(he missed some time in 04) if you force me to hold it to 3 years then Id say 06-08 simply because he missed time in 04 and idk about jumping years. Overall enjoy this stream
Marz, just a question. How come you flip flop on who's better between kg and duncan? You've admitted duncan is better offensively. And hes probably(50/50) better defensively. And hes easier to build a contender around. I know its simplistic but there's 2 sides to the game of basketball and duncan is arguably better at both, by a considerable margin on one of the 2 sides( offense. probably the most important side but i digress). Whats really the argument for kg at that point? Vibes? Skills? Versatility? Playmaking ? Even though none of the above makes him better at offense or defense in the bigger picture?
I say Duncan has the higher floor on both sides. i think duncan was the better scorer for reasons ive outlined before. i think KG is one of the best ceiling raisers ever. his skillset fits next to anyone and maximises everyones talents. its just a shsme in his peak he had to floor raise every year (and was one of the best ever at that too) he was better off ball than duncan,higher motor,better jumpshooter,better passer,he runs the floor better. all skills that scale extremely well. then defensively hes not as good of a pure rim protector but the motor,utility,versatility he provided means he can play a multitude of roles and makes him somewhat of a chameleon on defense,another extrmely scalable skillset. Basically i think if KG was actually allowed to be a ceiling raiser in his peak people would see why i think its so close
I have Jokic over Giannis, but I do think Giannis suffers from his play style. For some reason run and dunking has had a negative impact in the way people judge how good he is 😅
I describe it like a mountain. The prime is the snowy subsection approaching the top on both sides and the peak is the apex of the mountain. in basketball terms prime is ur top 10% of performance with ur top 1% performance in that timeframe. now its not linear for everyone but thats just a general explanation
I think some of the guys y’all are referring who generated better shots for their teammates than Kobe had the luxury of playing in a more spaced out era and actually having floor spacers on the floor during their peaks. Going off what you guys determined Kobe’s peak to be 06-08 those teams were really constructed to have great floor spacing. Also have to remember the era how teams were allowed to deploy certain defenses that you couldn’t today because of the way teams are constructed and the rules. I think it’s a bit disingenuous the way some talk about aspect of Kobe’s game during that time. Overall enjoy this stream
whats the common denominator between the teams kg n jkoic were on with the outrageous on/off swings? a lot of their teammates were trash which means that #1 the bench units were trash #2 the starters cant float units w/o him on the floor either #3 because of the first two facts the team was tailored to their strengths n weaknesses more so than other goats at their peaks
Id argue KGs teams werent catered to anything for him besides like 2 years. Jokic atleast has strong play finishers who can play off him well and mask his defensive shortcomings. KG genuinely had nothing of use to me for 90% of his time in minnesota
@@MarzTalksSports na I agree w that. Kg didn’t have same talent around him or the roster construction to hide weaknesses n accentuate strengths like Jokic did/does. My main point is I hate the on/off jokic arguments. On/off is incredibly noisy. Bc it’s still true that kgs trash bench units n weak starters n coaching are good for his on/off numbers. N kg led his team in every stat bc they needed him to. Same for Jokic. Esp for Jokic bc that whole thing in Denver is designed around him. But both those guys had outsized roles thats why their on/off is so crazy A team that’s overly dependent on its main guy, intentionally or not, suffers when their guy is off the floor. For example Westbrooks on/off were jokic level when kd left and he was basically the whole team too. Tripple double god that carried his team to a 6th seed or whatever just like Jokic when Murray went down. Not saying Westbrook is as good as Jokic. Just saying on/off is a wonky stat we need to use as supplemental info n not the anchor of how to evaluate a players impact. Timmy, Shaq, bron in Miami, kd, etc…they had to fit in a system that required a smaller role from them. It’s a trade off bc it probably hurt their individual numbers (Kobe’s individual peak came after shaq left too) but they all won more than jokic n kg too Ask a Jokic Stan to make an argument for Jokic w/o bringing up on/off n most couldn’t put anything compelling together
@@taylor7264 I think its absolutely fair to say on/off will favor those who have entire teams built around what they do and that it should be used to support an argument not make the whole argument. I have no idea where i have jokic peak. outside of lebron and shaq id entertain jokic vs anyone else
Bron never had a peak because he gave it away for superteams twice. He might have had one in those 8yrs, but we’ll never know how great he could have been.
@@Theoriginialdonguilloryyour degrees arent relevant when talking about basketball. a peak doesnt cease to exist because of your teammates. a peak is your highest level of performance. that is it everyone has a peak. anthony bennett had a peak Kobe bryant had a peak and everyone in between had a peak
Hey Marz, just wanna say don’t ever feel like your wasting time talking basket ball for 3 hours. You guys articulate yourselves in a way were it’s fresh and you guys make takes where I have to hear your explanations to the bs yall be talking about but then im like aight bet. Love the content glad i found your channel
i wanted to talk ab 03 kobe but based on my earlier premise of consecutive seasons unfortunately i think 02 04 and 05 are a step down from other years so i couldnt include 03 in a peak discussion
Yes Kobe shot bad in game 7 of 2010 but he also held Ray and Paul to bad shooting nights with his defense and had 16 board’s himself. To Marz point NOBODY was efficient that game included ray Allen the most efficient volume scorer of that era.
FINALLY some Dwade over James Harden love. Always thought it was nasty for Marz to put Harden over Wade mostly due to analytics. His playoff performances are too egregious, simple as that. His shot diet was a problem
wade was up there w Kobe at his apex idk how he be getting disrespected like this d wade went thru the grind and won his chip w/o another star unlike these soft dudes like yo king and kd 👺👺👺
The issue with Wade is his Offensive game. His Peak Season in TS ADD is lower than Kobe's. From 2004/05 to 2009/2010 his eFG% was only +0.2% above league average. Wade has never led an elite Offense in the Playoffs or Regular Season. All the while being a non-floor spacer, playing in an era where the PFs &Cs were non shooters and floor spacers themselves. It's hard to realistically build an elite Offense in the era Wade played in as a 6'4" high Volume slashing Guard as your centerpiece. Wade was like the Guard version of Giannis.
@@blacknetsmedIn Wade’s defense when u say he never lead a team with a elite offense is he never had a team built solely around his skillet like how Houston built those teams around James harden even in the 2000s I feel like Cleveland did a good job of giving prime lebron as much spacing as possible. I feel like wade always had to adapt to other players skill set for example when Shaq got there early in his nba career he had to adjust to playing around him, Shaq leaves he has to play with some rookies and washed up vets for 2 years, then Lebron comes and he had to adjust again. I’m pretty sure if peak wade played in a system built around his skillet he would thrive with big scoring numbers and great playmaking while leading that team to good offensive numbers .
Why is it as soon some people are 10x better at their own channels than on Player's Choice. first Low, now Marz. Except Ticket, he is horrible wherever he shows up. And Chill. That guy thinks Moses Mlone is better than Joker. Let's put it that way. And that genius Pen. LMAO. I hope you got to conclusion it's Jokic. Because, when you look at, well, anything, it's Jokic. Nerd Sesh are here, I don't doubt them. btw, Marz, since you are obviously Brittish, why don't you spend an hour a day (it is more than enough )watching MLS highlights and do MLS podcast too?
@ Shaq was more dominant come playoffs he was the more unstoppable force Lebron looked mortal for a few stretches during that heat run. the way people describe Lebron you’d think he had his 2018 offensive peak at the same time as his 2013 defensive peak but those never synced together simultaneously
Shaq wasn’t more dominant in the playoffs. Shaq had more than a few down playoffs stretches at his peak. He wasn’t anywhere near as good in the West playoffs as he was in the finals. He was still great obviously, but not close to what he was against the East. I don’t think that is talked about enough. I think some of his playoff numbers and reputation is kind of carried at times by his finals performances.
@@MarzTalksSports I disagree. I will change my answer. I agree. But Luka is not the one. It's not like his assists are from him driving to the lane, see a big and then kicks out. Or dribble the ball until 2 sec on the clock then pass the hot potato. He is literally throwing lobs, finding open shoters. I wonder if Lively and Gafford think Luka is selfish.
KG being more impactful regular season players than KD? Did you people watch 2014 kd when Westbrook went down or 2022-2023 kd when Kyrie played like 30 games per season and harris was out, harden quit on them 15 games in, and Simmons was hurt for 98% of the games he played in Brooklyn Kd carried thag Brooklyn team like very few players ever have. Not just on offense also on defense. If kd stats healthy and play 65 games those 2 seasons the nets would probably win 50-60 games with sll the injuries ans flaws to the roster and kd probably wins 2 MVPs. Kg was great. he wasn't kd great. When KD has had to run the offense through him he goes into another level of impactfulness that only LeBron, jokic, and Giannis can match overall. Kd doesn't like playing that way but i have seen him do it and during thise runs he looks like 2014 KD anytime he wants. In tersm of the accolades ans team success it's mostly injuries that have prevented KD from having a resume that rivals the top all time greats
i believe the reasoning why that was said about KGs impact was his net swings,i believe his 03 season is the highest swing of the past 25 years and i think 04 is also top 5. its some of the craziest individual impact statistics in history.
@@MarzTalksSports That's one way to see it The way I see it is through what the teams without KD have looked like. The OKC team missed the playoffs in 2015. The nets went from the 2nd seed to 10 seed in the games when KD was injured twice. Lost 11 straight at one point. Had a winning percentage of another .340 during that time. The defense went from #2 in the league to bottom 7 in 2023 even though he was supposedly replaced by a DPOY in bridges and 2 better defenders in cam and that Mavs role player. The sun then lose like 70% of the games the season they trade for him while he's hurt. He comes back and they don't lose a regular season game for those last 8 games. KD that season won like 32 out of his last 33 games when he played. While his teams were like .350 when he didn't play He was the MVP that season. Then this year he once again shows his value and the sun's go 1-6 without him All this joking and Giannis talk for MVP but the sun's have a worse winning percentage without KD than those 2. He has closed more games. KD has been more valuable on defense. I am a KD stan so I might be biased but I just don't see KG being better at his peak . The guest you had called Nash "one of the unluckiest players in the playoff history" Some people will tell you Kawhi is a what if. But KD almost has missed almost the same number of regular season games as Kawhi since Kawhi was drafted. Had had as many serious injuries. Missed the playoffs 3 years of his absolute peak.. Had his second best player hurt in 2 playoffs series both in his prime. Had his 3rd best player hurt in 3-4 series all in his prime. Had 2 starters hurt for the playoffs in 3 separate seasons. If you actually check the teams KD has been eliminated by they are some of the bets defensive teams of his generation while having his teams injured or no chemistry. People the names KD has had on his roster but ignore the context. KD has actually never lost with 2 all-star players in a playoff series. I mean all-stars that season at the same time not former or future all-stars KD has had more unfortunate stuff happen to his career than just about any all time great ever. I can't think of any player that compares in the last 30 years or even in all of NBA history.
Can you explain something to me, cause I keep seing this narrative about him not being a 2 way player. He can't block shots, he will never be a rim protector. It's not thathe doesn't want to, he can''t. But, can you tell me is rebounding defense? Are steals defense?
@@AVAXII the way I see it he can defend but the all time players are still quite a fair bit ahead of him in that regard. And positionly if we are ranking peaks by how valuable/ detrimental you have to team success unfortunately having weak rim protection (most important defensive position) limits his teams overall ability to win games. It’s more of a detriment than say Steph not being elite on defence because he can fit next to rim protectors. Jokic in terms of fit is somewhat stuck with weak rim protection
@@tusharbisht6832 Then you have to use the same logic for the offense. Steph can't rebound, can't post up, can't shoot midrange, can't pass like Joker. He is alot weaker offensive player than Joker, altho he is very good offensive player. Also, by that logic, AD, Embiid, Giannis, Jakob Poeltl, Zu, Sengun, JJJ, Myles Turner, Evan Mobley are all better than Jokic. In my opinion (if we are using shotblocker logic), to be better than Jokic, you have to be able to generate similar number of points on offense.
@@AVAXII the position Steph plays allows him to fit next to players that can do that however Jokic it is harder to do such a thing with as his position is the one that is asked to rim protect Steph is good in the areas you mentioned outside rebounding and post ups (not common at all for his position Idk who I’d take Jokic or Steph but they are close in offence to me (I lean Jokic cause Steph has health concerns in his peak the longer he goes into a playoff)
Yes Kobe shot bad in game 7 of 2010 but he also held Ray and Paul to bad shooting nights with his defense and had 16 board’s himself. To Marz point NOBODY was efficient that game included ray Allen the most efficient volume scorer of that era.
John D thank you for helping Marz pull this pod out from the shed we needed this back in the rotation 😭
I’m here for you man
For real. Lol
Maybe i pulled the pod out from the shed myself,dont give John D my credit
@@MarzTalksSports 😂😂
@@MarzTalksSports the actual credit goes to the person that shut down Open Gym
this is peak basketball talk
Lowkey too nerdy
W episode. Two of the best basketball platforms teaming up together for an episode
Shoutout to marz on the d Wade love. He gets overshadowed unfortunately because of his era but dude was special. He’s literally the reason I fell in love with basketball.
I could watch 10 hours on this type of content
2:33:23 A big issue with KD is that his production doesn't really exist in a vacuum. In the Playoffs in GSW he puts up 32 ppg on 64%-66% TS with estimated scoring TOV% of 7%-8% in a basketball environment where he wasn't the no. 1 option in terms of defensive coverage.
In any other situation where he is the no. 1 option in defensive attention in the Playoffs he's averaging 29 ppg on 58%-59% TS with estimated scoring TOV% of 10%-11%, a becomes a turnover machine overall as a playmaking engine.
Would have Kobe ahead of KD in Peak simply on the fact that Kevin Durant's production in Golden State is synthetic. He didn't become THAT MUCH better of player in GSW comparatively to the rest of his career, it just became a lot easier to play basketball comparatively to anywhere else.
Also Kobe's production in LA is far more empirical as a no. 1 Offensive engine than anything from Durant as no. 1 option.
Side Note: John D & Carson have KD over KG, too? Hard disagree, borderline ridiculous.
i think the 'narrative' of kd not being the no.1 option in terms of defensive coverage is not entirely true. but i also think its ridiculous to ignore how much KD benefitted from GS. but i also also think its disingenuous to ignore how questionable of a job okc did in building a roster around KDs skillset and how unlucky he has been.
Wasn't expecting this collab but I am here for it! Big dub big dub
Great show Marz and John D!!! Shoutout to the nerd sesh guy love the show!!!!! And I wanna a defensive peak show too and how players skill sets impact their eras
this sounds fun
didnt expect this collab, would like to see more, great vid
Marz + John D and nerd sesh is peak content 🔥🔥🔥
This was real basketball nerd talk (positive)
Nerdsesh might be the best collab you can have Marz. More of this man.
Get these boys on the panel!!
I think it's important to make a distinction between defensive ability and defensive impact when talking about superstars.
Team don't want their primary scoring option spending their energy guarding the best player on the opposing team, so they will try to hide them on weaker offensive players.
If a player is guarding the weakest offensive player on the opposing team, and that weak player is taking 5-6 shots, how much are they actually impacting the outcome of the game?
I think in general superstar bigs are the only ones able to have a big impact on the defense every game, while perimeter players only impact the defense in certain matchups or if teams try to run certain schemes.
i agree with this in general
Probably my fav episode, from both seasons
Once I seen nerds on here knew this would be 🔥
I'm just glad CP3 got mentioned in this conversation.
extremely underrated historically
John D stand on yo take man
Just keep going marz and JD
My Top 10 Peaks of the Past 25years!…
1)Shaq
2)LeBrick
3)Kobe
4)Garnet
5)Duncan
6)Jokic
7)Kawhi
8)Curry
9)Durant
10)Giannis
Honourable Mentions; D. Wade, Harden, Nowitzki, Harden, Luka, CP3, McGrady, Melo & Iverson!…
Marz becoming consistent
Great collab, amazing analysis, Brit x nerds working together...couldnt ask for more 😊
I agree with the idea that since player A. Is an a 8/10 offence player and and and 8/10 defender and player B. Is an 9/10 offence player but a 6/10 defender player A is automatically better. I see it like a video game, the XP to level up from 8 to 9 is almost the same amount of XP needed to go from a 5 to 7.5. There is a large gap that can’t be quantified simply by the fraction out of 10 between a good or elite offensive player and an all time offensive player.
u explained it much clearer than i did
I like the XP example
@LonelyHoops I think offence and defence need to be measured by impact
Just because Hakeem is seen as a 10/10 defender doesn’t means he should be 10/10
Hakeem value of defence hypothetically is the equivalent of let’s say the offensive value of a Karl Malone
Karl Malone would bring 8/10 value from offence and Hakeem would bring 8/10 value from defence if that makes sense and that’s what they should be rated as.
I hate this talk of well a 10/10 defender isn’t as valuable as a 8/10 offensive player huh? Makes 0 sense just rate them on defence equivalent to the value they bring
The player that brings more value from both sides of the ball is the better player (usually I’m not considering fit and port in this example) so if your more of an outlier on one side I don’t believe your better if your a clear negative on the other (Steve Nash is a perfect example) a neutral to positive defensive value rockets him up for peaks for me but alas as much of an outlier he is on offence their is a lot of value being bled that weakens a team
I hope this makes sense but I can see reading this would be confusing
I have more thoughts on the matter but in case someone reads this, this is it for now
@@tusharbisht6832i understand what you are saying it makes sense
@@LonelyHoops that would mean you think giannis is better than Jokic
Peaks of the last 25 years IMO:
1. Shaq 99-02
2. Lebron 10-14(his longevity is ridiculous and this is when his defense was at its best so I went with this version)
I think 3-7 can be switched and debated :
3. KG 01-05(he suffered from the teams not always being good during this time )
4. Duncan 99-03
5. Kobe 03-08(minus 04 cause of the missed time teams weren’t always the best during this time)
6. Jokic 21-present(favorite player currently so argue with a wall and he could move up)
7. Steph 16-21(2020 when he got hurt)
8. Giannis 18-23(could move up)
9. KD 13-18
10. Idk it could be Wade 06-10, Cp3 08-13, Harden 16-20, Kawhi 17-20(minus 18 when he was hurt) etc..Honestly most of these are relative.
I took into consideration mostly just how good these players are overall, competition they faced, eras how difficult it was for these guys to do what they did etc..
Great episode man
This was 🔥 definitely gotta see another collab
Finally KD actually getting some respect it’s hard being a KD fan with all the surface level slander and nobody ever really analyzing who KD was and how close he’s came to success as a number 1 option
W show mannn, great insight !
w hoops, heard about this on nerdsesh pod and this hit
thanks for watching,glad you enjoyed it
NO NARRATIVE TALK, STRAIGHT HOOPS. W CONTENT
The point marz made about bron as a rim protector and not having a true big (in his prime) that protected the paint at an elite level is something i havent really considered in some time. I always think about his switch abilitiy more so than his rim protection and he absolutely was a great rim protector in his prime.
He only needs atleast one HoF player, one All NBA player, one All Defense player, and one All Star. If he has that, he might win a Chip. Altho he did lose with 2 HoF teammates, and he was the one that laid an egg.
@@AVAXII😂😂 this was unneeded
@penkima4923 yeah I mean this is regard to "prime" LeBron. LeBron at his peak. Idk if anyone could argue that Lakers bron is prime bron but absolutely he did at that point. Maybe I should reword that.
Put out a top 10 peaks with all eras that would be PRIMETIMEEEEEEE
Get them on the panel !!
I like this Logan Guy
Joker discussion followed immediately by Duncan!! Yes yes yes. My 1 and 2 favorite players. They are GOATS!!
If you are not from Denver, I salute you sir.
More Marz content was not on my bingo card 🔥
I can’t wait for a defensive peak episode. I wanna see who’s gonna be there and will it be post three point line
🔥 show
i didn’t know about mike james before mars mentioned him. bro is the most random player to average 20 and 6 on 46% fg and 44% from three. like these are amazing stats especially for 2005. then come to find out he literally never averaged more than 10 points a game after that season😭
the 05/06 season was a contract year for him and minnesota of all teams fell for the fake 20ppg and gave him a 4 year 20+ million dollar deal (another sign of twolves ineptitude) and then he never came close to replicating that ability ever again. KG never had it easy man
Only thing about this episode that I’d disagree with is how one of the guys compared “being an offensive #1” with the concept of scaling well. Oftentimes it’s the skills found in great offensive #2s and great defensive players that allows guys to scale well. Being an offensive #1 helps, but that’s not the primary skill for scaling, meanwhile guys like KG bring transition offense, lob catching, pick and pop, some of the best defensive value of all time, etc.
Not to say Jokic doesn’t do those things, far from it, and not saying he is better or worse than KG, just this concept I wanted to push back on. Great episode otherwise.
This is a W marz
Ain't no way nerdsesh hopped in?
2:46:28 ahh yes… More Deserving of Steve Nash glazing 🔥🔥🔥 music to my ears… Top 6 Offensive Peak Of All-Time
08-10 Kobe to me was his best. He was very well rounded imo his defense wasnt the same but I’m stretches he was very good. Seeing that in real time was special
Hearing the Steph conversation has me thinking he has the greatest on court impact of his era.
definitely in the discussion
yo marz quick question but what were you trying to say when comparing steve nash, magic and jokic in terms of passing/offensive weapons. Were you saying;
A: Their ability to actually pass read defences so they can deliver the pass is tier one even above those like lebron
OR
B: Them as offensive players are better than guys like lebron, steph etc. Simply because they can manipulate defences based on their strengths
I think you said not even lebron is in that tier but if you were referring to A, i would offer push back as weve seen lebron read defences like no one else, adjust to schemes on the fly and create the easiest looks for his teammates that would be comparable or better than any of those three at his offensive peak (2016-2020)
If you were referring to B then i think again lebron steph and even MJ could get into that tier 1 based on their scoring gravity which I think is more dangerous than any of the three you gave, MJ as a scoring threat is so relentless that If you dont double he would just torch his defender and if you do double he would make that pass to the open man. His driving threat and mid range jumpers make him genuinely damn near hard to guard. I can understand in vacuum players like steve nash or even jokic based on their playstyle are just unstoppable but its hard to base these off of "in a vacuum" . Steve nash wasnt as score heavy as he should have been and he did say it himself, maybe if he did apply more pressure or took more threes he would be the "offensive number 1" that i guess you think he is. But i think in that case that we would be talking about a different player. The whole vacuum argument just in general (not saying you made it) is so hard to process cause in that case wouldnt someone like KD be the best player ever, but we dont say that cause we've seen his limitations (how he can be knocked off his spots, denied the ball, settled for jumpers, lack of ball handling etc) Same with Jokic i think he even has his weaknesses as he can be TOO willing to pass and isnt as dominant in being aggressive as a scorer as he can. Whereas i think players like lebron and even to a certain degree MJ theres that balance of applying pressure as a scorer and also as a playmaker that i think jokic takes the playmaking part a bit too much.
Hope you see what i mean and if i interpreted what you said incorrectly then my apologies but this has been fun to talk about and type. Would like to see a video like this again its always good talking about nuances in basketball and the individual rather than "HE WON" " HE LOST"
the way i meant it was the passing volume and how much and how valuable what they found/created with their passing was. i think jokic magic and nash are in a tier by themselves when it comes to a combination of those 3 things. thats the broad scale i could get into more minute things but they all fall under these umbrella terms in some way or another
@@MarzTalksSports Hopefully you can talk about this in a video or a quick segment idk, cause its pretty interesting imo at least
@ yeah its pretty interesting to me
Yo Marz u should do a show talking about greatest all time teams starting 5s
Tier 1 Bron 09-14
Tier 2 shaq 99-02
Tier 3 06-09 Kobe,22-now jokic 02-05KG 16-19 Steph 99-03 Duncan
Tier 4 22- now Giannis,17-19 KD 19-21 kawhi 08-11 Dwade
Tier 5 17-20 Harden 05-10 Nash
Tiers are not in order
I just feel like 17 kawhi has be there, he was way better defensively in that year and he was at least comparable offensively.
@@abtocool6350 can’t skip a year for my peak but I think that’s his 2nd best year
@ oh, if you do it that way then I can’t disagree. 2021 is the best offensive version to me and 2017 was the best overall version to me.
Some disagreements, but a pretty good list overall
Quality stream. Just need to fix up the Kobe disrespect and we’ll be eating good
Facts had to stop listening after that
@@l3gendarysage293i think you missed some good conversations then
As a harden stan, this was hard to watch lol. Great show regardless
it wasnt a great show for my bearded goat
W collab
Do another peak episode of the prehistoric era
my top 23 what do you disagree most with marz? (I could probably change or shorten some years but yeah)
1. LeBron James (2012-2020)
2. Shaquille O'Neal (2000-2002)
3. Stephen Curry (2015-2022)
4. Nikola Jokić (2020-2024)
5. Kobe Bryant (2006-2010)
6. Tim Duncan (2001-2005)
7. Kevin Garnett (2003-2007)
8. Kevin Durant (2014-2018)
9. Giannis Antetokounmpo (2018-2024)
10. Kawhi Leonard (2016-2021)
11. James Harden (2017-2020)
12. Dwyane Wade (2006-2011)
13. Luka Doncic (2020-2024)
14. Dirk Nowitzki (2005-2011)
15. Anthony Davis (2017-2022)
16. Joel Embiid (2019-2023)
17. Chris Paul (2008-2015)
18. Russell Westbrook (2015-2020)
19. Steve Nash (2005-2008)
20. Dwight Howard (2008-2012)
21. Tracy McGrady (2001-2004)
22. Allen Iverson (2001-2006)
23. Jason Kidd (2000-2004)
id definitely shorten some years,i think i can see the rationale with most of the list so wouldnt argue much
I think some of the guys y’all are referring who generated better shots for their teammates than Kobe had the luxury of playing in a more spaced out era and actually having floor spacers on the floor during their peaks. Going off what you guys determined Kobe’s peak to be 06-08 those teams were really constructed to have great floor spacing. Also have to remember the era how teams were allowed to deploy certain defenses that you couldn’t today because of the way teams are constructed and the rules. I think it’s a bit disingenuous the way some talk about aspect of Kobe’s game during that time. I think Giannis being above Kobe peak for peak is a tad bit ridiculous same for Luka(couldn’t remember if he was above or below). I personally would have Kobe’s peak 03-08(he missed some time in 04) if you force me to hold it to 3 years then Id say 06-08 simply because he missed time in 04 and idk about jumping years.
Overall enjoy this stream
Ranking Dynasties next?
Marz, just a question.
How come you flip flop on who's better between kg and duncan? You've admitted duncan is better offensively. And hes probably(50/50) better defensively. And hes easier to build a contender around.
I know its simplistic but there's 2 sides to the game of basketball and duncan is arguably better at both, by a considerable margin on one of the 2 sides( offense. probably the most important side but i digress).
Whats really the argument for kg at that point? Vibes? Skills? Versatility? Playmaking ? Even though none of the above makes him better at offense or defense in the bigger picture?
I say Duncan has the higher floor on both sides. i think duncan was the better scorer for reasons ive outlined before. i think KG is one of the best ceiling raisers ever. his skillset fits next to anyone and maximises everyones talents. its just a shsme in his peak he had to floor raise every year (and was one of the best ever at that too) he was better off ball than duncan,higher motor,better jumpshooter,better passer,he runs the floor better. all skills that scale extremely well. then defensively hes not as good of a pure rim protector but the motor,utility,versatility he provided means he can play a multitude of roles and makes him somewhat of a chameleon on defense,another extrmely scalable skillset. Basically i think if KG was actually allowed to be a ceiling raiser in his peak people would see why i think its so close
I have Jokic over Giannis, but I do think Giannis suffers from his play style. For some reason run and dunking has had a negative impact in the way people judge how good he is 😅
What’s the difference between peak and prime???
prime is longer, peak is 2-4 years the very BEST of a player
I describe it like a mountain. The prime is the snowy subsection approaching the top on both sides and the peak is the apex of the mountain. in basketball terms prime is ur top 10% of performance with ur top 1% performance in that timeframe. now its not linear for everyone but thats just a general explanation
I think some of the guys y’all are referring who generated better shots for their teammates than Kobe had the luxury of playing in a more spaced out era and actually having floor spacers on the floor during their peaks. Going off what you guys determined Kobe’s peak to be 06-08 those teams were really constructed to have great floor spacing. Also have to remember the era how teams were allowed to deploy certain defenses that you couldn’t today because of the way teams are constructed and the rules. I think it’s a bit disingenuous the way some talk about aspect of Kobe’s game during that time.
Overall enjoy this stream
Can Giannis anchor a defense like KG?
No, he's more of a help and recovery defender.
Giannis never anchored a defense it was jrue and Lopez
Peak
Kobe …. Number 9 … THIS CENTURY!?!!?! 🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣… analytics and efficiency talk messed up the gameeeee man
Kd over Kobe is nuts lol
W marz
whats the common denominator between the teams kg n jkoic were on with the outrageous on/off swings?
a lot of their teammates were trash which means that #1 the bench units were trash #2 the starters cant float units w/o him on the floor either #3 because of the first two facts the team was tailored to their strengths n weaknesses more so than other goats at their peaks
Id argue KGs teams werent catered to anything for him besides like 2 years. Jokic atleast has strong play finishers who can play off him well and mask his defensive shortcomings. KG genuinely had nothing of use to me for 90% of his time in minnesota
@@MarzTalksSports na I agree w that. Kg didn’t have same talent around him or the roster construction to hide weaknesses n accentuate strengths like Jokic did/does.
My main point is I hate the on/off jokic arguments. On/off is incredibly noisy.
Bc it’s still true that kgs trash bench units n weak starters n coaching are good for his on/off numbers. N kg led his team in every stat bc they needed him to.
Same for Jokic. Esp for Jokic bc that whole thing in Denver is designed around him. But both those guys had outsized roles thats why their on/off is so crazy
A team that’s overly dependent on its main guy, intentionally or not, suffers when their guy is off the floor.
For example Westbrooks on/off were jokic level when kd left and he was basically the whole team too. Tripple double god that carried his team to a 6th seed or whatever just like Jokic when Murray went down.
Not saying Westbrook is as good as Jokic. Just saying on/off is a wonky stat we need to use as supplemental info n not the anchor of how to evaluate a players impact.
Timmy, Shaq, bron in Miami, kd, etc…they had to fit in a system that required a smaller role from them.
It’s a trade off bc it probably hurt their individual numbers (Kobe’s individual peak came after shaq left too) but they all won more than jokic n kg too
Ask a Jokic Stan to make an argument for Jokic w/o bringing up on/off n most couldn’t put anything compelling together
@ i see what you saying
@ do you think that’s fair to say??
where do you have jokic’s peak?
@@taylor7264 I think its absolutely fair to say on/off will favor those who have entire teams built around what they do and that it should be used to support an argument not make the whole argument. I have no idea where i have jokic peak. outside of lebron and shaq id entertain jokic vs anyone else
Why did the west being tuff in the 00’s matter for some and not others🤔
Bron never had a peak because he gave it away for superteams twice. He might have had one in those 8yrs, but we’ll never know how great he could have been.
not what peak means but sure
@ Jesus Christ.. 3 degrees, but I don’t know what “Peak” means…these BRONSEXUALS..
@@Theoriginialdonguilloryyour degrees arent relevant when talking about basketball. a peak doesnt cease to exist because of your teammates. a peak is your highest level of performance. that is it everyone has a peak. anthony bennett had a peak Kobe bryant had a peak and everyone in between had a peak
Hey Marz, just wanna say don’t ever feel like your wasting time talking basket ball for 3 hours. You guys articulate yourselves in a way were it’s fresh and you guys make takes where I have to hear your explanations to the bs yall be talking about but then im like aight bet. Love the content glad i found your channel
I can tell these guys never saw Kobe play in 02-03
i wanted to talk ab 03 kobe but based on my earlier premise of consecutive seasons unfortunately i think 02 04 and 05 are a step down from other years so i couldnt include 03 in a peak discussion
what a scam! marz didnt even give his list
😅
Yes Kobe shot bad in game 7 of 2010 but he also held Ray and Paul to bad shooting nights with his defense and had 16 board’s himself. To Marz point NOBODY was efficient that game included ray Allen the most efficient volume scorer of that era.
Did Marz cook?
Marz sat on the fence
@ like why
@@footyManiac-h4u someone had to host right
@@MarzTalksSports you should have said your top ten
@ Maybe one day
FINALLY some Dwade over James Harden love. Always thought it was nasty for Marz to put Harden over Wade mostly due to analytics. His playoff performances are too egregious, simple as that. His shot diet was a problem
did i put harden over wade? i cant remember
Mars is pretty high on wade I doubt he put harden over wade
Dirk not making 1 of the top 10s is insane to me. I’d have Dirk instead of Kawhi. I’d place him at 9
I didnt realise how many ATG players weve been treated to in the past 25 years until this video tbh.
Give me 09-10 lebron , unless you throw 2020 in with the 16-18 era (since he got hurt in '19)
Just no way Is 2nd stint Cleveland lebron better than Miami Bron I’m not listening to that
wade was up there w Kobe at his apex idk how he be getting disrespected like this
d wade went thru the grind and won his chip w/o another star unlike these soft dudes like yo king and kd 👺👺👺
shaq aint a star lol
Lmaoo wade wasn’t close to Kobe
he won a chip with shaquille o'neal,not sure if youve heard of him
The issue with Wade is his Offensive game. His Peak Season in TS ADD is lower than Kobe's. From 2004/05 to 2009/2010 his eFG% was only +0.2% above league average.
Wade has never led an elite Offense in the Playoffs or Regular Season. All the while being a non-floor spacer, playing in an era where the PFs &Cs were non shooters and floor spacers themselves.
It's hard to realistically build an elite Offense in the era Wade played in as a 6'4" high Volume slashing Guard as your centerpiece. Wade was like the Guard version of Giannis.
@@blacknetsmedIn Wade’s defense when u say he never lead a team with a elite offense is he never had a team built solely around his skillet like how Houston built those teams around James harden even in the 2000s I feel like Cleveland did a good job of giving prime lebron as much spacing as possible.
I feel like wade always had to adapt to other players skill set for example when Shaq got there early in his nba career he had to adjust to playing around him, Shaq leaves he has to play with some rookies and washed up vets for 2 years, then Lebron comes and he had to adjust again. I’m pretty sure if peak wade played in a system built around his skillet he would thrive with big scoring numbers and great playmaking while leading that team to good offensive numbers .
KG disrespect
Harden>Luka
If that means Harden is the bigger choker, then correct.
@ Means he’s better
I think 2017 Kawhi is not worse than 2019
I think hes better personally
Why is it as soon some people are 10x better at their own channels than on Player's Choice. first Low, now Marz. Except Ticket, he is horrible wherever he shows up. And Chill. That guy thinks Moses Mlone is better than Joker. Let's put it that way. And that genius Pen. LMAO.
I hope you got to conclusion it's Jokic. Because, when you look at, well, anything, it's Jokic. Nerd Sesh are here, I don't doubt them.
btw, Marz, since you are obviously Brittish, why don't you spend an hour a day (it is more than enough )watching MLS highlights and do MLS podcast too?
Cos football is boring
@@MarzTalksSports You are Murican. it's official
2000 too 2002 shaq is clearly better than 12-14 bron.
clearly? why
@ Shaq was more dominant come playoffs he was the more unstoppable force Lebron looked mortal for a few stretches during that heat run. the way people describe Lebron you’d think he had his 2018 offensive peak at the same time as his 2013 defensive peak but those never synced together simultaneously
@ i agree with that second sentence alot
Shaq wasn’t more dominant in the playoffs. Shaq had more than a few down playoffs stretches at his peak. He wasn’t anywhere near as good in the West playoffs as he was in the finals. He was still great obviously, but not close to what he was against the East. I don’t think that is talked about enough. I think some of his playoff numbers and reputation is kind of carried at times by his finals performances.
Marz do not invite swipa and Penn that my advice to you
guy with 8 defensive rebounds and 10 assists is selfish??????
I wholeheartedly believe you can get alot of assists and be a selfish player
@@MarzTalksSports I disagree. I will change my answer. I agree. But Luka is not the one. It's not like his assists are from him driving to the lane, see a big and then kicks out. Or dribble the ball until 2 sec on the clock then pass the hot potato. He is literally throwing lobs, finding open shoters. I wonder if Lively and Gafford think Luka is selfish.
@@AVAXII i was speaking generally in my reply
@@MarzTalksSports I know. That's why I wrote what kind of assists he gives out. What makes him selfish then?
@ idk i wasnt thinking ab luka when i replied to your comment
KG being more impactful regular season players than KD?
Did you people watch 2014 kd when Westbrook went down or 2022-2023 kd when Kyrie played like 30 games per season and harris was out, harden quit on them 15 games in, and Simmons was hurt for 98% of the games he played in Brooklyn
Kd carried thag Brooklyn team like very few players ever have. Not just on offense also on defense.
If kd stats healthy and play 65 games those 2 seasons the nets would probably win 50-60 games with sll the injuries ans flaws to the roster and kd probably wins 2 MVPs.
Kg was great. he wasn't kd great. When KD has had to run the offense through him he goes into another level of impactfulness that only LeBron, jokic, and Giannis can match overall.
Kd doesn't like playing that way but i have seen him do it and during thise runs he looks like 2014 KD anytime he wants.
In tersm of the accolades ans team success it's mostly injuries that have prevented KD from having a resume that rivals the top all time greats
i believe the reasoning why that was said about KGs impact was his net swings,i believe his 03 season is the highest swing of the past 25 years and i think 04 is also top 5. its some of the craziest individual impact statistics in history.
@@MarzTalksSports That's one way to see it
The way I see it is through what the teams without KD have looked like.
The OKC team missed the playoffs in 2015.
The nets went from the 2nd seed to 10 seed in the games when KD was injured twice.
Lost 11 straight at one point.
Had a winning percentage of another .340 during that time.
The defense went from #2 in the league to bottom 7 in 2023 even though he was supposedly replaced by a DPOY in bridges and 2 better defenders in cam and that Mavs role player.
The sun then lose like 70% of the games the season they trade for him while he's hurt. He comes back and they don't lose a regular season game for those last 8 games.
KD that season won like 32 out of his last 33 games when he played. While his teams were like .350 when he didn't play
He was the MVP that season.
Then this year he once again shows his value and the sun's go 1-6 without him
All this joking and Giannis talk for MVP but the sun's have a worse winning percentage without KD than those 2. He has closed more games. KD has been more valuable on defense.
I am a KD stan so I might be biased but I just don't see KG being better at his peak .
The guest you had called Nash "one of the unluckiest players in the playoff history" Some people will tell you Kawhi is a what if.
But KD almost has missed almost the same number of regular season games as Kawhi since Kawhi was drafted. Had had as many serious injuries. Missed the playoffs 3 years of his absolute peak..
Had his second best player hurt in 2 playoffs series both in his prime.
Had his 3rd best player hurt in 3-4 series all in his prime. Had 2 starters hurt for the playoffs in 3 separate seasons.
If you actually check the teams KD has been eliminated by they are some of the bets defensive teams of his generation while having his teams injured or no chemistry.
People the names KD has had on his roster but ignore the context. KD has actually never lost with 2 all-star players in a playoff series. I mean all-stars that season at the same time not former or future all-stars
KD has had more unfortunate stuff happen to his career than just about any all time great ever. I can't think of any player that compares in the last 30 years or even in all of NBA history.
The only reason Jokic isn't #1 is his defense.
If he even had KD level defense he would be #1
@@Christopher._M you think it’s enough to be above Miami james?
Can you explain something to me, cause I keep seing this narrative about him not being a 2 way player. He can't block shots, he will never be a rim protector. It's not thathe doesn't want to, he can''t. But, can you tell me is rebounding defense? Are steals defense?
@@AVAXII the way I see it he can defend but the all time players are still quite a fair bit ahead of him in that regard. And positionly if we are ranking peaks by how valuable/ detrimental you have to team success unfortunately having weak rim protection (most important defensive position) limits his teams overall ability to win games. It’s more of a detriment than say Steph not being elite on defence because he can fit next to rim protectors. Jokic in terms of fit is somewhat stuck with weak rim protection
@@tusharbisht6832 Then you have to use the same logic for the offense. Steph can't rebound, can't post up, can't shoot midrange, can't pass like Joker. He is alot weaker offensive player than Joker, altho he is very good offensive player.
Also, by that logic, AD, Embiid, Giannis, Jakob Poeltl, Zu, Sengun, JJJ, Myles Turner, Evan Mobley are all better than Jokic.
In my opinion (if we are using shotblocker logic), to be better than Jokic, you have to be able to generate similar number of points on offense.
@@AVAXII the position Steph plays allows him to fit next to players that can do that however
Jokic it is harder to do such a thing with as his position is the one that is asked to rim protect
Steph is good in the areas you mentioned outside rebounding and post ups (not common at all for his position
Idk who I’d take Jokic or Steph but they are close in offence to me (I lean Jokic cause Steph has health concerns in his peak the longer he goes into a playoff)
Yes Kobe shot bad in game 7 of 2010 but he also held Ray and Paul to bad shooting nights with his defense and had 16 board’s himself. To Marz point NOBODY was efficient that game included ray Allen the most efficient volume scorer of that era.