Yeah I think the writing and the gameplay elements for the first 25 to 30 years of "life" are pretty weak, but it gets good after that. Sometimes. Maybe.
Warframe's biggest issue is that the Main Storyline "starts" waaaaaaayyyy too late. Like, you need to get through half the starchart before it actually starts. And then one of the newer Main Quests require you to grind a metric fuckton to get something that barely matters in said quest
When I started calling out Elite Dangerous' flaws, I was told that I hadn't played enough of the game. So I dropped a hundred hours, came back, and was told that I had no room to talk because I'd gotten my money's worth. There's no winning against people who don't want to listen because they don't like your opinion. EDIT: Coming back here after a while because Warframe added a new "New Player Experience" in the form of Duviri and it is literally the worst possible NPE that they could have made.
@@asmahasmalaria8596 well for me and many friends they killed it after announcing that support for consoles will end and they aren’t dropping next gen versions of the game. I do have a acc on pc too, but idc much anymore.
@@xSoulhunterDKx For me they killed if after Horizons as the content just ended, even the latest expansion is very lacklustre and is more grinding for little reward
@@AudioCalibrator ikr. Grind is one thing, but it isn’t even fun. They should redesign Elite dangerous Entirely with their core mechanics. It need to be less grindy, more fun. I just recently played warframe again and visited deimos (open world (island) content there). It’s far better designed as the previous two I’m Warframe and I then realized, Devs need to go back and revisit older places too. Elite basically never did that. Warframe did, but there are still plenty of boring as well as annoying mechanics for time gating the game
That and watch a ton of videos explaining the systems. that being said I LOVE!! Warframe I happily sank 2,000 hours into it and I still love it. it's not for everyone but I was hooked in the first hour and it didn't take me 100 hours to "get good" it was good from the start, at least to me. I am a veteran now with all the warframes and a ton of weapons but I would happily wipe my memory and start from scratch just to experience the game for the first time again.
That's how my friends enjoyed it. I started playing it years ago when I had nothing better to do, played for hundreds of hours alone. Fast forward some years, I hadn't touched the game in about a year and a new update just hit. My friends are interested and ask me to play with them, I agree. They got to enjoy it from the first moment as I was there to... well... hold their hand and guide them forward with the mechanics and telling them what to expect. Exceptions were the friends who started with Mag thinking the concept was coolest but early Mag gameplay is shite and they dropped the game before the 2 hour mark.
Eh. It falls back to "The game is fun with friends" which translates to "My friends are the only reason I didn't drop the game". Also, what is explaining Warframe gonna do for your friend? "Here's some spoilers about the story. It's awesome. It actually works this way". Takes the fun out of experiencing the story. Or maybe you're not dropping spoilers but instead just hyping them up for the rest? Which works I guess but there's still a lot of time needed in-between to tackle a lot of the story (unlocking planets, unlocking the railjack, unlocking necramechs, unlocking etc etc etc etc etc), which goes back to the 100 hour argument. "If you grind 100 hours and find the right mods, forma your weapon 5 times, give it a potato, and buy a hyper expensive riven mod, your gun is gonna do some crazy things". Okay, how is that relevant to me now? 100 hours. "You can actually fish and hunt faster on Earth if you get a dye that makes the fish glow". Doesn't change the grind. 100 hours. I don't understand the defense for Warframe. I've played it since beta and have several thousands of hours myself. At one point, I created a new account because I had already gotten everything in the game and mastered it, before the introduction of MR2. Going through the early game without any mods at max with weak guns and with a mountain of grind and waiting for the foundry to complete things was so dauntingly disgustingly boring, I just went back to my normal account in less than a week. I COULD'VE spent money to buy mods with platinum from people, but what's the point in that? That's a horrible way to begin playing a game, feeling forced to pay. Could've also just gifted myself the mods I needed from my main account, but that defeats the purpose of starting over no? Time to face the music. Warframe is a boring grind. Some people can stomach that grind, and perhaps even like it. But like the point of this video says, why lock the good stuff behind a massive wall of nothing good?
@@Shiraigan Damn sounds like one anti-social problem, often people just give the starter mods with some brief guide to where the new player need to go I agree that the craft system is horrendous with that 12-24-73 hours wait to get your shit, it needs to change
As a Warframe veteran, i agree with you, Josh. my best friend wanted to join me in Warframe, since it is my favorite game after the Mass Effect franchise. however, being a working class upstanding young man, my best friend hit me with the most heartwrenching "Maybe but i don't have the time right now". as of now, i want to make everything in my power to help new players. my whole clan left the game because of a gameplay overhaul (Status Rework sounds like Vietnam for me now) so i've given some mods, even some primes to new players for free. just in hope i will see them again and have fun in a 30 min defense. Warframe veterans, Please stop bitching about play time, or boosts. they're here so we can all play together, working 30 Y/O dads and 23 no-life like me can play together because of that. instead, lend them a hand, you know. gift them a multishot mod instead, you have plenty, they have none, and your kindness will make them stay longer.
You are part of why the Warframe community is amazing. Thank you. I hope you are still having fun with the game. I’m currently still playing it and I brought a friend into it I didn’t have any of the prime frame parts for the Frame they wanted so I did the next best thing. I farmed up the parts with them and bought some from other players They best way to help new players is to be the help we never got and for those of us who were there for year 1 to share the information we didn’t have access to We are both still playing and now I have two end game builds and she’s working on leveling Voruna now. I Myself am thinking about farming Nekros Prime and I’m usually always messing around with new weapon configurations ☺️ Again, thank you for being the best part of Our Community
@@dragonoflegend8798 hey. thank you man. your story warmed my heart. and i sure do hope you enjoy playing the game too. i know i am. found a new clan, decent people all around.
@@dragonoflegend8798 good luck about that, i must say, archon hunts are the epitome of what that video denounces for me. but hey, i hope you'll find fun in those :)
Gifted a new friend colour palette just so they could customize their Warframe a bit better at the start. Massive change in how much longer they played the game for. When the devs don't do a great job of onboarding players, it falls onto the community. And while it shouldn't be our job, if you want someone to do something more often, make the experience enjoyable for them.
What I remember most from a game no matter the genre is the beginning. The discovering and learning of a game is so amazing. It oddly holds a bittersweet emotion to the memory though.
I have a friend who always tries to explain how to play every new game we try. He never understands when I tell him to shut up and let me learn. It's my favorite part of every new game I play.
@@ProclarushTaonas Same. I like to be completely on my own and make mistakes when first playing. I will most likely make a new fresh account after I've decided I know enough or have made too many mistakes and then try to avoid the same mistakes. It feels great comparing your first and second time playing and you can tell you have grown. That stuff feels great. Absolutely hate when people try to spoonfeed and backseat me when I'm super early into a game where I have ample time to experiment and start over if needed.
I have a little over 3,000 hours in League of Legends. I’ve had many friends ask me if they should play it, I always tell them “If you’re willing to sit through at least 100 hours of not having fun and people shit talking you for not having played for 10 years, then sure.” Surprisingly, none of my friends have began playing League because of me. I’m glad even if I’m too far gone I’ve managed to save a few people.
i tell my mates all the time league is shit since when u are a new player you are hopeless learning not only 150+ champions no u need to learn managment decision making all items and and and.... but for some reason they quit after 1-2 games then come back the next hour just do repeat it again xD the classic move
You can tell it's on purpose too. It's just to stretch the video to 15 mins so he gets ad money. These videos would be a lot better with a better written script that has less repeating in it, and 10-12 mins long. Cut the fluff, Give more suggestions on how to improve something that you're making the video on. Give an example. You can fill out your videos this way AND be less repetitive.
@@truckywuckyuwu why are you giving him suggestions about making "better videos" when you literally said he stretched it out for money... If that's what he's doing, he doesn't need any extra advice.
@@truckywuckyuwu I mean... He did cover what the title said. Which was kind of the point of the video, repetative or not. But good to know you still watched it through just to complain.
I've never gotten why after years (Warframe as an example) games don't add progression or suggested paths to easily lead newer players along while still allowing free path choices. You don't have to add an immense story all the way but side quests with a bit of lore story here and there are engaging enough to keep attention. The sarcastic AI can throw in random hints like "are you gonna upgrade your mods anytime soon?" Or "this planet is getting stale, let's work our way to Uranus." Those small pushes keep people from scratching their heads or coming up with what they think they should be doing. It helps players to work forward rather than back.
@@StarboyXL9 wrong, 8 hours per week aka 36 per month is what is needed to be pretty much a good raider in a wow like MMO as you on average need like 4 hours weekly for raid completion + extra 4 hours for progressing a raid
@@StarboyXL9 Exactly, there is a certain amount of time spent in average a day, for you to be able to call yourself a gamer. If you don't meet those average hours, you are JUST a xxxx that plays games, NOT a gamer... in my opinion.
While I agree with the point he is making, I feel like it is kind of misrepresenting the data. It's just over 8hours/week, on average. This means that there's a lot of people that are a lot higher, and a lot lower. Also many of the "average" will be playing only 1-2 days/week and not every day, this means that a average "play session" will be about 4hours, not just over 1. Arguments that present the "average" person as only playing for 1-2 hours/day is how we get systems like WoWs world quest that are designed around a large burst of rewards, with a relatively short time investments, but *require* the player to log in each day, or the "daily login rewards" in mobile gaming. These types of reward structures tend to hurt the capability of players who have a "average" play time, but condense it all to a "friday/saturday grind" instead of "1-2 hours before bed".
More like how skewed that garbage study was. There is absolutely no way that is true considering the largest game on the planet (fortnight) has More players than almost all triple A titles out right now combined. The average player on fortnight is like 10-12. As soon as he said the study this video immediately become untrue.
@@noahberkel3668 Weird, never heard of this "Fortnight" game. Are you sure "Fortnight" really is the most popular game out there? I feel like I wouldve heard about "Fortnight".
Warframe needs more early game oriented quests. a quest specifically about getting from earth to venus would be a great way to teach moding and how junctions work
indeed. to be fair they did a lot to make the new Player experience better. when i started it at launch it was very basic. unfortunately every time they focus on bettering the early game angry screeching vets swoop in....
The initial goal is going through the map nodes to unlock and complete everything. The open worlds on earth and venus just so happen to also be available pretty early.
Warframe is an amazing game. I played from its Beta, and you should be glad that there actually IS a Tutorial now... because there didn't used to be. That said, I have a real issue with Josh's take on people being mad about MMO level boosts. None of the reasons he cited are the REAL reason people get mad about boosts. The reason people in MMOs hate boosters is because they get to end game with NO IDEA HOW TO PLAY THE GAME... and then expect you to carry them through the content. Even if they're familiar with the game already, they still don't know how to play THAT character. That's bad for everyone. What I really dislike about boosting is that it means that the MMO developer has decided that everyone ONLY wants to play their end game content, which to me is the opposite of what an MMO is about. An MMO should be fun through ALL of its content, and be fun and challenging at low levels just as much as at its end game. WoW's focus on end game is probably the worst thing to happen to MMOs, in general, because it has fueled this attitude throughout the industry. An MMO should be about overcoming challenges and social interaction, and preferably about using said social interaction to overcome said challenges. That's what Blizz doesn't get about WoW Classic's success. Its not that the game is better, its that people are forced to travel through a shared space and presented challenges they can't overcome by themselves! That forces people to help each other, and despite the typical idea of how gamers act, most players in WoW classic were incredibly helpful!
Agree. I did the intro or what it was back then, with Loki. The second quest was with Mr 10 with my first prime weapon. Next quest Mr 16 2 forma rhino prime. Years apart.
I got into Warframe earlier this year. I wouldnt describe its problem as "it gets good after 100 hours" so much as "you arent going to fully know what youre doing for at least 100 hours". The gameplay itself feels quite enjoyable independent of the overall objectives, and you can still very easily have fun. Regardless of the steep game-knowledge curve, you should know pretty quickly whether you are the type of person to like Warframe or not after only a handful of hours.
I love this paradox. You need to play for 100 hours or more apparently to critique it fairly. But if you say it's trash after those 100 hours the response I see often is "no it's not you've played X hours so obviously it's good enough for you to play that long!"
Oh yeah I heard that a lot when I critized Dark Souls II or Just Cause 4. And probably other games. I play most games to completion if I enjoy some aspect of it. And I am a complenionist, so running around in Just Cause and collecting everything is what I enjoy, regardless of the quality of the rest of the game. And Just Cause 4 is garbage.
@@Soapy-chan_old hey, you guys wanna play in a massive, soulless open world with no substance to it in the next installment of just cause? "Actually uh, we would just like some multiplayer and thatd be fine" MASSIVE EMPTY WORLD WITH NO MULTIPLAYER IT IS THEN
I played it 3 times, first time at beta or year 1 of the game (liked it, but got burn out by it) , last time few years ago and just didnt like it, it just felt empty, pointlessly grindy and clunky. I guess i have over 300-400 hours
It doesnt get good after a 100 hours, it gets good after you meet someone who actually explains the game to you, which is one of its greatest downfalls.
It gets good after you unlock the broken gear/mechanics so you can feel like Doom Slayer. Warframe is a perfect example. Takes too long to achive or tell anything significant, too easy, too grindy. And I am telling this as someone with nearly 1000 hours on the game. I switched over to Destiny 2 which is more challenging, less grindy and you get access to a lot of stuff lvl 1. It has a more fleshed out story which I adore as a lore nerd and it feels like what Warframe should have been. I still love both games, ripping and tearing until it is done is awesome in both but being able to survive high difficulty infinite missions while being solo for nearly a whole hour where your hp barely even gets damaged is not fun, it feels like you are just ripping out overgrown weed that can move around and tickle you.
@@jamesrustles8670 I dont think they have to hand hold, but suddenly throwing you out there with no hint as to where the main quest is, isnt a good thing.
@@jamesrustles8670 they should guide but not hand hold, I don't want to be treated like an idiot but I also want to have a sense of direction and knowing how to do something
@@SgM-1000 Right, the "figure it out by your own - stuff" should not be in the first basic activities, like modding, or how to use the codex. It took me weeks, until I checked, the market is not necessarily only for real money....^^ And is there still no Bo, or Skana stance for free at the beginning?......:)
That's basically saying that there's no such thing as anything worth while after a bad 100 hours. In fact, if you watched the video, he never actually makes that point, in fact his B-roll footage is of a game that takes at least 100 hours to get to the good part. The point of the video is that "play for 100 hours" is just bad game design, but it doesn't actually speak to the quality of the good parts of the game.
@@verigumetin4291 There are plenty of games that honestly are really good after a bad start. The creator of the video literally RECOMMENDS FFXIV despite it having the most atrocious early game. After you get past the horrible early game it is literally one of the best Final Fantasy games to have been made.
@@floofzykitty5072 you are right, I was actually making a mean joke, that's it. Also, I am incensed since I do not have one hundred hours to give to a game anymore. And those games that are "fun" without the one hundred hour investment are basically meaningless time sinks. I am at that point in my life where if a game needs more then ten hours to get fun, it just straight up sucks objectively, for me. Not sure that makes sense but whatever.
@@verigumetin4291 That is totally ok. To give another example, my cousin, formerly a huge gamer in his teenager years, stopped playing games entirely after he became 20y old. He now rather reads books or draws stuff instead of playing games because he feels like his time is better spent... And he is totally right about that. I however love games and hope to work at a Game Studio one day for cinematic story telling (cutscene design) or the narrative/character design. .
Interesting seeing this debate resurface with Starfield! It used to be a common argument with F2P games and MMOs, but having someone use it to defend a AAA single player game is incredibly strange in comparison.
Starfield was just too big to not spend so much time. Especially since the way travel works, needing more resources to get punished by the higher level enemies. Bethesda tried something they weren't good at, failed, and I hope the elderscrolls 6 will go back to basics
I really enjoy WF but I'm not exactly thrilled about the "It gets better after 100 hrs" I know for a fact a lot of people just won't vibe with the game, and that's fine lol. Wanting someone to play more of something they can't get into just makes them miserable until stockholm kicks in. I'd rather play with people that actually enjoy it like I do.
@@danielnolan8848 this is fair warframe has a curve something like this. Tutorial: yees Post tutorial starmap grind: Mostly nooo with a bit of yeess mixed in there Post-system cool shit: Yesss many many hours in trade chat to be able to get more slots and such to get more cool shit: *please end my suffering* More cool shit: *yeees* you've burned through all the content: Hol up Content replay value is very limited: *Fuck* It was good then kicked itself of a cliff
@@expertoflizardcorrugation3967 I'd say the steel path changes have been a large benefit for the "end game" but it doesn't quite fit the hole left by raids. As of now endgame content consists of three pillars; sorties, steel path alerts, and relics, (arguably nightwave too). Which is a better state then for endgame then the last 5 years
You have, in 6 hours of watching various videos you've made, helped me revise and improve my game design documents to improve the potential experience of my players. I've enjoyed this video, your Seven Deadly Sins video, and a LOT of your Worst MMO Ever videos. Thank you for making them.
devs have way more detailed metrics than the achievement. Its more for us to know whats going on. And i have to say that 40% retention rate for 2h is pretty impressive for a f2p game. Having played the game i understand why.
@@spinnenente Also, it depends on when the achievement was implemented. If it was back when the game poor and starting out, then yeah. It would make sense that a lot of people didn't play for that long. And it could actually be a sign that the game rose since the humble beginnings. If it's a newer achievement, then it's a bit worse.
@@spinnenente im of two minds about warframe. i love the lore of it, and the combat is fast and fluid. i would liken it to destiny but youre a robot ninja child soldier with magic powers instead of an immortal zombie with magic powers. so i understand why the retention is so high. on the other hand, i personally felt confused and unwelcome to it with a lot of the content seeming to be visible to me but not accessible and i couldnt figure out how to access things. so i also understand why 60% of people try it and leave within that first two hours. i stuck with it longer than two hours but i definitely didnt stick with it for longer than maybe six or seven.
Things that took me less than 100 hours: - Beating The Witcher 3 - Beating all the seasons of Telltale's The Walking Dead - Beating Dark Souls 2 three times - Beating Hollow Knight four times - Beating Shadow of Mordor and Shadow Of War - Watching 8 seasons of Game Of Thrones - Learning to make a video game in Game Maker Studio - Learning enough guitar to not sound like an amateur - Writing for an hour each day when competing in NaNoWriMo 100 hours is a truckload of time. To do that consecutively, that'd be each and every one of your waking moments for a week. If you spent three hours a day on something, that'd still take you over three months to do, and that's if you don't miss a single day. 100 hours is a lot. It is a lot of fucking time.
Things that took me less than 100 hours. - calling your mother - meeting up with your mother - busting a fat gooey load all over her - master grapefruit technique - dunking my fat nuts in oil and jumping over a lit fire naked
Honestly Warframe could probably at least double how many people get to 2 hours if it had a pop up tutorial that made modifications seem less intimidating to new players. Though the fact that it is free to play and something like 8 years old probably doesn't help. Also mods do have a decent tutorial, two technically, but neither are immediately noticeable and they are both easy to miss, thus why pop up tutorial would make a world of difference to new players.
DE is at a point where I think almost everything they are doing is for the sake new content to keep the highest playtime people from leaving, I don't know when they added the new intro but its probably been over a year and yet since I started playing in 2019 I don't think they have done anything for the tutorial, and this was an issue when I started the game because I didn't understand it and so I had to go online and I still don't know if I really understand all the systems after 600+ hours.
@@ImTakingYouToFlavorTown the only thing i know that warframe is working on is the next prime rotation, the new lore stuff, and mabye a little more railjack stuff
@@XHiddenXSniperX What if that 24 hour waiting period is an incentive to spend/buy platinum that helps fund the game to make more quality content that will attract more playing people?
@@bdv4622 It is an incentive to spend money but its a terrible one, if you spent a week farming materials but get told you can't have the item you farmed for an additional 24 hours you'd probably be pretty annoyed
But in the case the book does get better after 100 pages and there are a potential thousands of them… I mean I would be intrigued if I were a book reader.
I probably started playing in 2013 but left immediately bc warframe was too confusing for me at that time lmao. Later on returned in 2015 and ever since then I had a blast until 2019. My playtime became: log in, read the chat while bullet jumping and log off until I finally uninstalled.
Nah., The game is good, and once you get in it, and understand the systems and put your time into it, cuse this no normal game that you have the story and dadada.. its a mmorpg and one of the most complete ones ive found. The trade.. the coop.. the grind/farm the missions the 50 ways you can do stuff the variety of stuff the implements they always making, ill give you this , is no beguinner friendly game yeah.. but if you have half a 1% IQ you know how to ask people and let me tell you this is the most helpful community you will find in a game
There's a third reason people get angry at buying boosters: It encourages developers to keep selling them, which creates a domino effect that makes the rest of the game worse with even more heinous microtransactions. I think there was an article a while back where a monetization specialist actually said "Hey, you're the ones buying it, we'd be stupid to stop selling it."
You gotta balance that argument though as the developers are trying to entertain you, but they and their families need to eat too. It is good to watch out for though. Heck look at how botched Darktide is because the historically loved developer got greedy or is trying to placate TenCent and scum as much money as they can from people.
@@MorteWulfe Right, but that's kinda the thing; the onus is on the developers to create a monetization system which makes the least amount of people upset. So when they get a wealth of criticism from people telling them they're doing it wrong, usually it's BECAUSE they're doing it wrong, and people notice; and they notice those who participate in buying those monetization systems are feeding into a spiral of overmonetization.
When I first played warframe I was a 15yo kid with a lot of free time, spending 5-6 hours/day on high school and all of the remaining time by playing warframe. I got to mr29 and got everything the game could offer. Even when I was on college I had a lot of free time to play it (I have 3.5k hours steam/2.3k ingame) and I used to recommend warframe to all my friends, it is one of the best games I've ever played tbh. But I can't recommend it anymore, with no time at all to invest, it will be extremely boring and it takes too long to have any progress so I prefer arcade games or a good single player one. If I had to start warframe from the begenning today I would drop it before the 2h mark, everything after the tutorial to before lvling up all of the basic mods (like serration, vitality, etc) and getting a good warframe to solo most of the missions is just bad and not worth the time invested. And I'm not even mentioning the time gate of forging warframes, weapons, archwings and the railjack. The problem with warframe is that you need a lot of time to stop depending on veterans and actually learn how to farm things by yourself and when you get this knoledge, the game just clicks, it's awesome. But it takes too long, and just like me, veterans naturally are having less time to invest, losing the new players by the game design and the old ones by the lack of time.
I mean warframe also has an incredibly serious issue of no there not being a late game to look forward to. Once you've reached a certain point, even as veteran all you do is just grind the same spots over and over again to prep for new content. because there's no raids. The weapons you can craft dont have an intricate forging process like final fantasy, there is no advanced class system. nothing. It's frankly pitiful that there's just nothing to do anymore except prep for new update at some point.
@Dampfkartoffel also railjack is buggy, its not that bad if you are solo but in multiplayer you are playing with fire, and should be prepared to potentially lose your progress for no reason.
They are losing vets too at least on Xbox. People complain about the game being hard to learn. I never had this problem. I played solo until Eris and was fine. My complaint is that the new content is boring to me. Scarlet Spear was fun to play until you had a Limbro on your team. ISO vaults we’re fun until you glitched through the map. This game has never had a clean update for as long as I’ve played. There are at least 2 chat mods on Xbox that will ban you for no reason. One has been suspended 3 times and at that point I say you fire them. Chat was what made Warframe fun after you finish the planets and play every frame. I wish there was a place in game place where you could put suggestions and they could be upvoted or downvoted like Reddit.
I played the game as a teen, got a hundred hours at least. Then dropped the game cause i stopped having fun(just unlocked steel path and got bored of railjack)
Having just graduated and working full time made me realize there's a choice you make with mmorpgs, you either stop so you can play other games or invest all your free time into the singular one
9:56 this is a reocurring theme in Warframe: devs miscalculate time or resource costs for a new system / new playmode, then later nerf the costs in an update while the forums are filled with seething early adopters who feel cheated. I encountered this when Arcanes in Plains of Eidolon had crafting costs, which were fish parts gathered from fishing. I took one resource boost weekend to farm hundreds of fish to be able to craft all the Arcanes I would ever want. Months later the resource costs were removed. Now there is a lot of fish in my inventory. Nowadays they tend to refund a portion of the resource investment when they changed the costs for Railjack for example.
Oh god. You reminded me the fishing and how annoying it was just to catch a few needed. At the right spot, at the right time. Still not spawning pool. AAARRRGH!
Sometimes I think this is actually an intentional move on DE's part... if they make new things too easy, the veterans will complain. So they make them hard and time-consuming (getting your Railjack), and then when the veterans have ground them out, they reduce the difficulty to make the content more accessible.
same kind of thing happens with Borderlands. Just buy Borderlands 1 or 2 or 3 two years after its release date and you'll get a great game at a great price.
@@905JimRaynor lol yeah. i've thought of getting bl3's dlc's for a while now, but i keep telling myself "why? they'll just release literally everything all at once for 30 bucks. and lo and behold, the current sale on ps is both of the season's passes.
"Suffering through the game is a right of passage." God I hate this mentality, especially when the Developers make some sort of agonizing quest easier or less tedious and then the people that did it already feel like they got cheated or something.
Warframe's main issue is that Digital Extremes have for the past few years, mostly relied on the playerbase itself to guide new players and get them to the good bits of the game early, I cannot even begin to describe how stupid that is. Really hope your videos on the game get them to do something to make the early experience better.
It used to actually have a intelligible "quest" path that easilly got you to the endgame or far enough that you can figure it out for yourself easy enough.
Yep if it wasn't for the wiki/forums/reddit i would be 100% lost a couple hours in and would of given up. A game shouldn't need outside resources to be played and enjoyed.
@@nocluewhatiam1189 so you have to already know how to play...but the game is not very good at telling you how do go about any of that other than the basic tutorials.
oof. yea warframe is fun game play, and the story is really interesting after second dream, war within, the sacrifice, but its always a stretch to tell some one to choke down parts they don't like so it gets good. it could definately use some streamlining early on in terms of directing you and giving you lore connections. also some of the rails require wacky shit to open that mystify new people. that isn't good.
@@kyotheman69 RNG mechanics are too heavily implemented, and it's not the only game or the worst game that uses RNG for basically everything (that would be Fallout 76, where EVERYTHING is RNG.)
The problem i have with warframe, which is why i stopped playing, is the slow progress, and trying to grind for materials. It is taking so much time, maybe the game picks up later, the more stuff you have? but just getting one weapon took hours or even days or even weeks to grind, and then on top of that we have the waiting system... like waiting for stuff to finish for like 8-48 hours for something to finish, instead of waiting a couple of minutes, and this system made me feel like i have to wait a long time, until i can try the new weapon i crafted..
@@kyotheman69 yeah some of the grind can be unreasonable. especially when you do consider the 1 hour that a lot of people have. I was able to make the grind bearable purely because I had more time, I dont like the fact that there's a very real possibility that someone spends that entire hour in trade chat trying to scrape together the plat to save time, or make the game more enjoyable. I played for a very long time, and for all intents and purposes was f2p(slight exception for a tennogen skin). The best fun I had in the game was either fucking around with friends, or when I had concrete goals. I can remember having endless fun spending hours challenging the obstacle course just to beat my friends. that wasn't me enjoyting the I can remember having endless fun spending hours challenging the obstacle course just to beat my friends. When you have goals the game can be a blast, but the moment i achieved my concrete goals... it lost all the fun of it
About halfway through this video I started to feel like you were rambling and could've condensed it, and then it finally dawned on me at the end that you are actually just a genius. Well done.
It’a good but as soon as I realised I was impressed at first then started to get annoyed every time it happened I laughed to but it’s started just seriously irritating me haha
@@tommytherunner or you just don’t understand the simple fact that whatever game, if the early game is bad, Is flawed game design, as a college student I don’t have even 10 hours a week to play, having to balance life and work and studies and social stuff. His points are accurate, early game needs to catch you and show you what the game is all about with well explained mechanics. Just because “most” mmorpg’s take a while to get good and interesting it doesn’t mean it’s a core mechanic that it should stay. Most players will quit if the early game is bad
The biggest problem I have with warframe is that most of the game modes available early on (save for survival (but that's just killing stuff)) are repetitive, boring, and outdated, but the main questline is SUCH A BANGER. The problem is that DE did not put anything in to give you knowledge on how to get to the good lore-driven quests (ex. the second dream) or really any clear sense of direction on how to progress.
The problem isnt DE not giving you knowledge about the only 4 good quests in the game. The problem is that only the last quests are good, the beginning and middle quests are simple worst in every way, they dont even have custom missions and DE dont give a shit about it, they dont wanna rework the early and mid game
@@erichdegurechaff9515 That's without mentioning all the story missing in-between. Like, imagine reaching Neptune/Uranus and the boss starts talking about some tube-men you killed and a year later you read on Reddit that there was a story quest removed from the game where you killed his experimental clones.
one of the biggest problems in many mmos is the lack of guides inside the game,if a experienced player starts a new account,in 20 hours he can be doing the second dream,the great game changer of warframe. That shows how complex the mod system,the resourses and the important nodes are,and is extremely necessary for the game to show us a way to do it,and it is very eazy,just have the ordis explaning the mods,and say "operator,you will need this knowlege to reach our maximum capabilites'
my biggest issue with warframe is the studio creates false scarcity on prime suits you know a end game item with stat boosts over base frame of that one and vault it to turn around and be justified to throw it into cashshop for 100$ later one so you couldnt get that end game prime that might be your main for a year when i started playing yeaaars ago nova was vaulted i ended up paying plat to another player while it was vaulted for a inflated price to get nova 2 months later it was being sold for 100$ meaning no one had to farm for it lol it was scandelous and greedy and its why i quit knowing the studio randomly vaults primes soley for the purpose of reselling it later on in a 100$ package for one prime 2 skins lol
My experience with warframe was backwards it was really good at the begining when I was learning to use the different weapons and warframes but then it became gradually tedious as I gained experience, then one day I realized that I didn´t enjoyed the game anymore, that the endless grinding and the repetitive missions were a pain in the ass to do so I quitted and kept the good memories instead of burning myself in a game that wasn't fun anymore.
This is what happened to me. The missions and constant grind began feeling like chores. I did leave, for like a year. Then tried to reignite the fire when something new released (not sure what... I think Fortuna). Least to say that didnt work and now I despise the game even more. And the fact that so much crap happened with the dev team and releases after that just.... no.
This is definitely true as well, it became a chore rather than a game anymore. What I did to make myself enjoy and kept the thoughts of it being a chore is by staying away from all of those so-called "meta elitist" telling you to do or not do that.
Mastery L1 here and i share your exp. Hope this new war update bring something different. I really dont want another POE, Orb Vallis and Deimos. No more open world.
It took me over 2k hours to realize, the last time they improved the core gameplay loop was 5 years ago by redesigning parkour mechanics (bullet jump). Of course we hated it in the beginning, no longer being able to copter through a mission in seconds. But eventually we saw the improvement. Last year i realized i no longer enjoyed playing WF. And then it dawned on me: i stopped recommending the game a few years ago. WF does not get better after 100 hours, it gets crappy after 1000 hours.
Warframe is fun but confusing for about the first 100 hours, then a lot of fun once you understand the systems and can explore, try the different styles of weapons, finish the story content, try the different frames and get a few pets. Then it becomes a frustrating grind to get enough resources just to build the last few weapons, level mods, farm primes and forma frames. It managed to stay fun for me for longer because I had friends to grind with. But eventually even playing with friends became tedious, because we were just doing the same things - grinding for primes, grinding for credits to level mods, grinding for a few rare mods we didn't have. Just doing the same 3 missions again and again. I gave up eventually. You stop feeling like a cool space ninja. You start to feel like its a second job just to level.
"Effort Justification" is a psychological construct that comes to mind in this context. Realizing they wasted 100 hours on a mediocre game will lead people to experience cognitive dissonance and thus justify their invested time and effort in hindsight by saying "but it was worth it".
Might be a bit of the sunk cost fallacy as well.. "I've already spent this much time/money on this game.. I have to keep going and make the best of it because all of that will have been wasted if I quit!" just a thought!
In the vast majority of cases I'd argue that it isn't that, but that after 100 hours they've finally adapted to the game's systems and learnt how to actually play the game not just bash their head against the wall trying to play like they want to, AND found a playstyle groove that they fit within and honestly enjoy, and for most of their friends, it was the same.
In 100 hours you can complete THE ENTIRE Mass Effect trilogy doing most side missions. People that try to defend MMOs like that should let this sink in.
You can complete all of FF9, FFX and FFX-2 in less time. Including all optional side quests.... Full 100% completion, including + modes (which require you to have completed the game already....)
I don't support how, specifically, Warframe handles some things, but for MMOs just in general you can't really fully compare them to normal games. They're entirely different. They're catering to different gamers and have different goals in mind. Those games mentioned here (Mass Effect, Final Fantasy, etc) are meant to be finished within a certain amount of time for a single purchase because they're mostly complete. They're designed to take you through a journey in a reasonable length of time without introducing any overcomplicated mechanics. If they made one game last forever or more complex or convoluted mechanically then they wouldn't be able to sell you the next game made by them. MMOs are designed to basically be a virtual home where people can role play in for long periods of time in an ever-evolving story and a large emphasis on grinding and choice with many more features. To support that kind of game it typically requires a subscription and to warrant a subscription it usually means a slower trickle towards the end or just many activities to do beyond the story or end game with constant updates. They want players to feel like they're always making progress towards something or always unlocking new things and new things are always being added. You wouldn't want players completing all tasks in a week or have no side activities. That would kill an MMORPG. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean the journey needs to be boring, but being longer or slower only makes sense because if someone only subscribes for a single month then that's not paying all the employees that are still working on future content, bug and balance fixes, server upkeep, etc. They're different. Apples to oranges. Final Fantasy is great. I've played them all, the single player and the MMOs, but Cloud, Squall, Zidane, and Tidus didn't get the choice to become a dozen different crafters with their own storylines, a dozen plus different battle classes with their own job quests to follow as well, get the chance to take part in rebuilding a city by literally crafting the pieces to it with hundreds of others players, have nearly half a dozen expansions worth of story content added, or enter dungeons and raids with unique battle mechanics that requires a mastery of your abilities and team communication. All these things and more takes time for an MMO to introduce to the player and therefore the will feel like a giant tutorial for awhile. MMOs aren't for everybody and that's fine. They don't have to be exactly the same or cater to everyone. But I certainly do agree with Josh that they can make them more fun and fulfilling earlier on. I can't speak for every MMO, but at least FF14 is actively working on expediting and simplifying the new player experience, even to the point where the entire first part can be played solo like a traditional Final Fantasy experience and with massive boosts to exp, loot rewards, and reworking early dungeons to be less frustrating. TL;DR I went on a nerd rant. Feel free to ignore.
I'm pretty sure I completed the entire trilogy while doing every sidequest in under 90 hours. Side quests that actually take time became rarer and rarer as the trilogy went on.
I feel this SO MUCH about games but also shows, and generally story. "It gets good after 10 episodes", "it gets good after 20 chapters", time is precious. Don't waste a hundred hours of it to somewhat start to have fun. Get the fun now. There is too many games to play to waste a hundred hours. Heck, you can even put easily 20 differents games of 5 hours each in it, and feel a whole better than by waiting for a game to "get good"
I’m my experience, Warframe’s devs fail to target both veterans and new players. They keep adding in “veteran content”, and then simplifying it (by lowering its flexibility) and lowering the entry requirements for “new” players. However, at this point there are so many of these that it would be impossible for new players to learn in a short time. This means all of the systems are dogpiled in the mr3 to 5 area rather than spread out between mr1 to 15. New players who just joined don’t get to experience any of it because they either quit at mr1 to 3 or are so overwhelmed by the new systems they decide to just ignore most of it. On the other hand, the veterans don’t get the level of flexibility and freedom they want out of an “endgame” system because the devs want to make the system accessible to early game players, who can’t really use it anyways.
What "veterans"? In this game everything is so easy that you can play with one hand , and I did, I made macro for slide and attack and put cunning drift mod and others ... I killed whole map with one button
@@Hangman1 "Veterans" in waframe are people who already have grinded everything of interest and have nothing to keep them playing anymore. It's not about the skill, in fact, warframe takes less skill the further you go in gametime. Optimal playstyle in this game is AFKing with AOE abilities after all.
@@blindeyedblightmain3565 Yeah, that why I don't play it from some time, they got nothing to offer as a game and DE only reshuffle from time to time stats and perk cards to change meta ( lazy development - recycling old junk )
She's not that bad of frame when look from actual compared if you use her kit. This not ignoring the obvious damage reduction and trying out all possiblities instead helmithing the k drive immediately because aqua blades is the better target for better cc or damage
@@deemojop266 Dude this is warframe any warframe can just use adaptation and an aoe weapon to do exactly what she does but better and 4 extra skills to use on top of that (this also goes for older frames, just use whatever you like, I don't care lol)
Warframe doesnt really “get good after 100h”, that’s a bit disingenuous. You do unlock more interesting areas, missions and systems, along with great story reveals, but the core gameplay loop remains the same, which is killing shit fast like a space ninja, and unlocking new warframes and weapons.
He already addressed warframe's problem. It's not that the gameplay gets better, that stays consistent. It's the story and the player's investment in it that suffers from it. Digital Extremes either needs to make the early game more narratively interesting or they need to cut down on the grind that is required to get there.
@@CaptainFordoAlpha-77 Thats the thing, the grind didn't use to be as bad, certainly there was grind but junction boxes were the worst thing they could have added for instance, those things are just stupid. and I thought they were stupi, it made me happy that because I played the game before they added them I never hade to actually do them.
I was thinking the same throughout the whole video. This man is absolutely on point with every assessment he makes on the good after 100h thing. I just don't think that applies to Warframe. Don't get me wrong, wf has LOTS to improve on. No, really, a lot. But other than unlocking stuff that does give you more flexibility, interesting areas and story, the gameplay doesn't change much since day 1. It's a unique shooter and it doesn't take 100h for the game to "get good". It does take that and beyond if you want to unlock absolutely everything (by playing) and that's fine. It's a free and therefore grindy game that needs improving in several areas (explaining stuff to players is a huge one), but it doesn't take 100h to be good.
I agree but isn't that the same with most games, people get upset because "its the same missions over and over again just with higher level enemies" but whenever something is added thats not the same mission everyone says it sucks it's "not warframe" (archwing, railjack, conclave) so what is it we want deep down the same or different 🤔. Also so much is expected of DE but warframe can be played 100% free (just takes time) not many games can do that, with the price tag of free with the updates having a price tag of free I'd say even 10 hours of game play is plenty on DE
This video gets better after 14min and 56seconds..trust me... joking aside, i hate when people use this as an excuse. this video is 100% accurate from the first second.
On the contrary, there's an MMO which introduces itself really good and feels fun after playing for 2 hours, only to realize that it's a grind fest after playing for more than that time period. *glares at Black Desert Online*
BDO was made by a Korean Developer, as you know Asian game developers that makes MMORPG's love the grindy stuff because that what we asian like in our games getting the 0.1% chance to get that super rare item in the server all to yourself instead of everyone having the same sht and it gets boring because everyone has the same sht no concept of identity or even bragging rights to boot, Asian game developers hardly make servers for western regions because western casual players quit in 2 hours if they realize that it's too much of a pain to grind and there' s no easy pay to win access to the good stuff, and just leaves the game and makes the point of making a western server pointless at all and a big waste of revenue when they could just release the base game in ASIA or SEA and have peopel play it for hundreds of hours and grind thru that stuff and release cosmetics as a way to make money instead of pay to win sht, i play both BDO and warframe and have thousands of hours in warframe and hundreds in BDO the grind is what most of us asian playersl ike and that's the main reason western players don't get global releases of certain Asian developer made games cause all they do is complain when it's too grindy etc. but at the same time no one will tell you to grind for that long anyways it's a grind system you get like thru RNG
It goes to show that this game can make great mechanics but not a great system to keep people playing. The people who do sink into it, both their time and money, fall hard. There's a reason there are videos of guys admitting paying tens of thousands of dollars a month by choice.
@@Mezha07 if Asians like grind for months for get the "chance" of get something,fail,and do it again go ahead, but you aren't playing, you are working. Keep the trash of casino called bdo for Koreans.
@@Altair123 who ever said that it wasn't fun doing it the ups and lows in the mmos we play is our dopamine which is better than doing drugs kekw you call it a job we call it oue relief it may feel like a job to you but it's a 2nd life for us that's why western players will always fail tlin comparison to asian players because you percieve videogames like bdo as a job when we're judt playing it normally and enjoying the ups and lows of the loot system and the story
This is why tf2 has been so popular for so long. Even after being abandoned by the developers. In the first 5 minutes of game, you see a goofy cartoon game where everything is chaotic, where nobody seems to care about the objectives of the game and just do random things for fun. After 1200 hours, I'm still having fun doing that.
I played this game for about 2,000 hours, and left, because I wanted to finally do the objective, but casual does not like tryharders :( luckily for me, I found out about the existence of TF2 Classic, and could finally get a feel for how this game was supposed to be played.
@@advertisingadrian even if this game had a working competitive mode, it still makes me sad to think that people don't even try to complete the tasks of the map, it's just a deadmatch without any sense, and even worse when people don't even shoot. You probably think I'm boring, but I can understand when not to shoot someone and get something cool, but it doesn't have to be all the time.
I'm not sure how applicable this is to MMO's but, from my own experience, having dabbled in game design a bit: you have a budget of around **20 minutes** to grab the player's attention, give them a motivation to play, and familiarize them with the basic controls & mechanics. Some games do this really well -- the first Dark Souls and Celeste, as examples. The game that did it best, from what I've played, is still Super Metroid. Within its first ~20min, the player has watched the intro cutscene, has gone through the invisible "controls tutorial" and "exploration tutorial" on Ceres and the surface/destroyed Tourian, respectively, and has defeat the game's first "real" boss (Torizo). This "20 minute rule" is by no means a _law_ in game design, but it is a philosophy that I wholeheartedly agree with.
Yeah, I dont understand this 100 hours problem, if you don't have fun the first hour then why waste 99 more for it to get good. It not on the players to enjoy a game, it on the game to let the player enjoy it, why the heck would you lock the best bit after 100 hours of playing is a design choice I would never understand. The best bit is most game designers wouldn't do it anyway. Even the greedy ones who want to grab people attention in the first 30 minutes so they start pouring money into the game, not 1, not 2 or even 3 hours later, let alone 100. Not to mention most store let you refund a game within a time limit, so all the more reason to avoid that problem.
Metal gear rising V have my favorite intro, loved the character design but i was too noob to do the missions and get stuff, droped a freaking legendary game because im dumb
It was an important concept that was part of education for game design. Hell, it is a common concept on software engineering. "If it takes more than 20 minutes to figure out, people won't stick with it.)
So true. Most of the times a game "gets good after 100 or 50 hours" it's not cause the game changed or got better, it's you the player that changed your perspective to drain down better all the crap. That's not enjoying a product, that's Stoccolma Syndrome!
If you want your friend to enjoy warframe you have to go through the early game with them(not much fun to be had for your friend, if you just kill everything). Explain them systems piece by piece, don't confuse them too much too quickly. Most importantly: relax and have fun, talk about stuff, any game is more enjoyable this way and warframe is not an exception.
There's two legitimate reasons why MMO players could be angry that someone boosted to high level, and that is if there are game mechanics that you must really *master* before you reach end-game in order to be able to perform adequately. This is a very narrow problem, but it could exist. Secondly, if people pay extra to get to the end of the game, it encourages multiple poor development and monetization practices by the company.
The first one is a legitimate reason to be upset at the player since it will impact the enjoyment of others, but your second reason is his exact point - there's a problem and rather than fixing it, the companies would rather just sell you a solution (the boost). Rather than being mad at the player in the second instance, both the new and existing players should be mad at the company for what they're doing and that's the entire point he's making.
@@Dreznin The unfortunate truth of the second reason is that when people pay a company to skip that part; they will keep that part in *because* people will pay to skip it, and carry on playing. I get mad at people who pay to skip trash moments in the grind since companies only speak one language: Money. If you give them money for anything, you tell them to "Keep doing this, I will pay anyways" If you instead grind through it without giving a penny and constantly complain; they will feel the loss of money and make changes (Even though that isn't a good way to experience, so the real good way to do that is to just stop playing, and play something else). It doesn't even need that many people to pay to skip for it to already be profitable for a company, so players need to not encourage negative behavior by companies. I think both reasons are valid for being mad at other players, and the companies alike.
@@Dreznin I think there is a subtle difference to what he was saying. We both agree that they are skipping a bad experience, but the reason the hardcore gamer is angry is different in my argument than in his. In my argument, I am saying that the hardcore gamer is angry because the company doesn't feel like it needs to fix anything, and is actually motivated to make the game worse, in order to get people to pay to skip it. To me this is clearly different than the hardcore gamer being angry because a casual gamer didn't have to suffer through the early game like the hardcore one did.
If a game has a way to achieve endgame content/level through payment just dont fucking play that game because thats a pay2win and getting mad at that point is dumb
There is a good reason why boosts should not exist cause they are detrimental to an mmo, which is bots. This is quite a common problem in wow, where you would have people buying a boost then immediately going to farm gold, end game materials which they then sell for real money, inflating the economy such that a normal player can't afford anything. Although both the game and the boost are expensive, they still manage to make a profit in the time it takes for them to get banned. Bots are a big problem even with a considerable time-gate, adding a boost just make it way worse.
As true as all this is, it also comes down to evolving playstyles due to hours invested and muscle memory developed unlocking different playstyles. For example, in a lot of these Warframe clips you're stood there static using a bow. While we all started like this, and while this is a perfectly viable way to play the game, it's also only how most newer/lazy players play, and it's missing a huge amount of the fun %. When you've developed the muscle memory to be non-stop using 'movement tech-ing' to effectively 'fly' around tilesets to the point you'll wall stall just for one instant flickshot kill and you're rarely touching the ground, the game changes completely and becomes A LOT more fun. This is the kind of thing that needs AT LEAST 100 hours of playtime just because you need the time to develop the muscle memory to actually be able to put this constant chain of movement into practice and I think this is a HUGE part of why players say you need to invest 100 hours even if people struggle to articulate this point. It's not just because of the content changing, but because you develop the muscle memory to pull off things that a player with 20 hours looks at and thinks "Bro why is this person sweating so hard in a defence mission" when the reality is, you're not sweating, you're just playing the game with multiple hours of muscle memory development that they're yet to experience. You can give a new player a Volt with 400% ability strength, and me the slowest moving frame in the game, and I'll still beat them to the objective just based on my ability to navigate missions that they just don't have the skillset for as of yet.
I've finished the desert bus route 7 times straight, and then it became really really good. Would advise everybody to take the time and do it. It will be worth your time.
For warframe, it is good, for the first little bit. Then it just drops you with no direction after the tutorial, then you get to find your own way until you stumble upon story
if im being honest my first time playing warframe was easy i just did research about the game before i played it its not like there is no information on the game
@@onmyeverything23 i mean i did look stuff up, but i tend to go down rabbit holes. Finding cool weapons mostly led to late game quests or doing kuva liches.
@@onmyeverything23 yes, this is basically the only way for a new player to get into warframe. That's the problem lol, a game should be self contained and explain how to play it to the player. They shouldn't need to do research to enjoy the game.
@@LegDayLas I mean most games people will look up "top 10 characters in so and so game" or "tier list in so and so game". Your point still stands where Warframe does make you have to look up how it works compared to looking up peoples opinions/facts about characters/systems in how good they are
What I've found with warframe (and basically every mmorpg) is that it's 5 times more fun early game when veterans are there to carry and/or explain complicated features to you
It's kind of a shame that this is the case. I have 400 hours in WF and I don't think I would have but an eighth of that in if I didn't have a higher level friend who would explain the various systems of the game. If it wasn't for the core gameplay loop being fun (cool movement, fun guns and even more fun melee weapons) I would have barely got 5 hours before I called it quits. Hell, even after 400 hours, I still don't think I fully understand the mod system. I get the individual parts, but how they interact is still something I have to parse out.
I actually found warframe fun when I started because I was carrying my almost as noobish friends. Like, I'd push ahead to the next planet first specifically so that I could then help my mates there. The bits where I *had* to engage with veterans to progress were where I disliked it. I guess I'm just too proud to get help. Spectres of the Rail launch was such an awful time to start playing, since it was literally impossible to progress past Mercury without a taxi.
I would like to do that with my friends and help them find a good game to play with someone that can help them understand, but the thing is, they wouldn’t like being carried but instead to be on an even playing ground, so I might try to get one of my friends to at least enjoy the game with me, knowing that I can help them if they don’t understand a mechanic in the game (“cough cough” mods “cough cough”)
i dunno,i played the game years ago, and when i started there was no tutorial,but even them i still got a lot of fun,and at that time my internet was crap so i played a lot alone.i am from the time that there was a stamina bar and the arcane helmets.i tend to get nostalgic more about my noob days than now that i am a veteran.
I think the issue with warframe, or why it takes a while for it to "get good" is because it has a lot of things you have to unlock, mods to upgrade, warframes/weapons to rank up etc before you can make personal and effective builds. For example, if you had ways of regenerating energy and 75% efficiency from the start, it'd probably be way more fun for new players since they can run around and spam abilities instead of only using the weapons because they only get the occasional 25 energy from orbs.
Tis why I stopped playing WoW. It got to a point where it required as much sacrifice as my job, marriage, or kids. Unfortunately, it’s just not worth that level of commitment anymore.
this is literally why New World died, the grind was a fucking a job. People were spending 5 hours a day straight farming nodes, so they could farm higher level nodes, so they can make gear to farm nodes more efficiently, so they could get more out spending 5 hours a day farming nodes... and it goes on
@@LightningNotes plus a bunch of glitches and bugs that make the game unfair to others if you use them, as well as the place for reporting bugs being public, meaning you could wait for a game breaking bug to be reported and be able to use it before it's patched
"It gets better 100 hours in" isn't a Warframe problem, or a FFXIV problem. It's a format-wide plague. "It gets better 100 hours in" is the _MMO mantra_ ever since the beginning, and exactly what holds the whole format* back... It's the primary reason why arena games beat out virtual worlds despite all the infinite potential of the latter. *(MMO isn't a genre, it's just a format like singleplayer or split-screen co-op or LAN multiplayer. It gets called a genre so much that I end up using the term too, but it's still wrong.)
I mean with FFXIV - at least the first parts are still enjoyable. The first 100 hours is fun and interesting, and the story just keeps getting bigger with more to do. Get sick of one job/class - swap to another, and now you have even more story and things to do, not to mention the fun/enjoyment of 'early game content' when you haven't been there in so long.
@@xXKisskerXx That is highly debatable. I'm the biggest FFXIV fanboy around and even I didn't enjoy ARR. It's a very simple, standard story that's extremely straightforward, contains a lot of filler, and generally isn't very good. I didn't start really enjoying the story until Heavensward. The later patch quests from ARR were alright too.
I personally think this is also a community problem, tho to be fair it could also just be a vocal minority. Every MMO player nowadays feels like "Just rush to the endgame as fast as possible so you can raid" While I agree that there needs to be a good endgame, personally I find it sad how many people dont even care what goes on on the way there. people just try to optimize their own game so much, that they eventually optimize the fun out of their game, especially the early game-
The problem with warframe is that this moniker applies, but not in the "you'll start having fun after being here a while" way, but in the "the full game is fun, but it takes 100 hours to unlock" way. Having full control of the operator is a big part of the fun imo, and you have to finish 40+ hours of story to get there. And that's by rushing the story, not doing full completion of things along the way.
Yahtzee made the perfect analogy for this on his review of FF13 on its awful 20 hours in before it gets good: "Put your hand over the oven for 20 hours and yeah you might stop feeling the pain but you will had done damage to yourself"
John Romero touches on the new player experience well in his "Dev plays" series where he replayed Doom and provided commentary. He spoke about how the first Doom level was the last level they finished, because by then they had learned as much as they could in order to deliver the best possible experience based on the lessons learnt in designing the game along the way, with the initial experience being the most critical. That made the middle levels the weakest in map design and gameplay flow overall. But given the player got to experience the best possible start to the game they could forgive, whether consciously or not, the weaker middle parts of Doom by riding on that positive high. That still leaves the ending to also be as strong as the start, which is a challenge of its own admittedly. He also got to experience that new player experience himself when he played Dark Forces for the first time, where Lucas Arts had also employed the same tactic of finishing the first level when they had finished iterating their FPS mechanics; famously ringing one of Lucas Arts' game designers and stating "Now I know how people felt playing Doom for the first time".
20-60-20 Start, Middle, End. The formula of books. The start must be the best, the middle part will naturally be the longest and most boring. The ending should be a spike in quality as well. But the start should always be the best. Video Games are old enough to genuinely be compared to Books, and I love it. There are too many books out there to say, "It gets good in the last 10%." There are too many games out there to say, "It gets good after so much time." XD Old games compete with new, and new games compete with old.
I played Warframe throughout Highschool, probably got around 500-600 hours, put it down and didn't touch it for like, 3 or 4 years, came back and only played about 45 minutes before getting bored and confused
The problem with the new player experience I think lies with them letting new players enter all these new areas early on, before they can even handle it. Some people hate things like railjack being mastery locked, but I think its better to keep newer players focused on learning the main game before seeing shiny spaceship.
Absolutely not. Most players that will enjoy warframe will be good enough for the gameplay itself. The game slugs in terms of systems and progression rate, not gameplay.
Problem is that early or mid game maps are just empty of players so you can play a "co-op mmo" for hours being alone occasionally seeing a veteran nuke the whole map in 60 seconds and during all this time majority of the player base is doing the new high level content that you cant access before doing all the previous quests
@@sexilatinoboi69 I don't think it's exclusive to Warframe. I have played lot of MMOs, and for every one of them, I started by going to the forums, and looking up youtube videos. But, in defense of Warframe, the MMO I stuck to, I can say it is not exactly needed. Most MMO follows a rigid class leveling system, the DnD style. Which is immutable (unless there is a respec option, which is often locked behind a paywall). So, it makes sense to try and find out as much as you can about some cookie cutter build. In Warframe, however, it's all about respecing. From forma to modding. It doesn't punish experimentation, it encourages it.
@@diptarkadas5193 bruh come on the game doesnt even do anything to introduce how mods work which is like the biggest essential part of gearing in the game. also it does very little to nothing to guide you to more content via the main story quests. like yea open exploration can be good but it can also be intimidating or boring. you have to give the players at least some kind of thread they can guide themselves with if they get lost. I have over 1k hours in Warframe and i fucking love it but i would never recommend a friend playing it by themself ever. at least not without my help or video guides.
@@AndrewWilson-fb8ge this is 100% true, first time i quit right after i started. Second time i got thrown into game with friends and never stopped. But damn does it feel great when you figure it all out.
I think generally veterans in a game have accepted and adapted to the game and the mechanics that would rub a new player the wrong way (be it because they are sub optimal or outdated ecc...).
They're building the game around people who have completed the games systems. The reason they made deimos was for the people who finished grinding fortuna, the reason they made fortuna was for people who finished grinding cetus. They're not focusing time into helping out a new player in the first 2 hours because why focus on 2 hours when it takes around 50 to max your standing.
they just need to fix the "road" from warframe start, until you unlock everything, them tell you "go and grind missions" so you play 5 or so hours of content, and give up xD
Re the boost point you make: The problem with boosts is that it gives the devs exactly a way to wriggle out of what they actually should do, which is to improve the early game. As soon as a game gets a boost the devs have no more reason to improve their game because they actually make money with their early game being shit
The problem with boosts is they incentivize devs to keep grinds you can pay to skip, yes.. And then you need to add: "and constantly add more rather than a meaningful endgame". Otherwise you're not grasping the full scope of the issue. Warframe is a great example of both things.
I started this game 3-4 years ago and the intro to the game has changed a lot with better cinematic and a different cinematic where it doesn’t show lotus but a young girl looking at the 3 beginning frames
That's exactly what he said. It's a band aid on an issue that shouldn't exist in the first place. They could use their development money to actually make the game have better player retention, or they can milk the few who have gotten on the game to make it better. Obviously the first not only make the game objectively better but also increases player retention, it's literally a bad idea to make this the crux of your game as it screams "it only gets worse from here".
10:52 is the main issue with Warframe. I understand Railjack, necramech, and Helminth being that amount of grind to a degree. However, WITHOUT QUESTION: Second Dream, and War Within should be within 10-15 hrs into the start of game. These aren’t just class upgrades or new skills or new functionality, it’s THE OPERATOR, the coolest, most unique part of Warframe that unlocks every other really cool part of the game. AND… just having the operator eleviates so much of Warframes early game awkwardness and need for higher level mods. The worst part is that there’s nothing those quests require of you past a basic understanding of the systems. The only reason it takes so long is cuz there tied to later game planets. Hey… just portal new players over to those planets for those missions, it even gives the added quality of foreshadowing those locations. Not only does it take too long to get, it takes a long time if you know EXACTLY what your doing, if not, you can spend 1000s of hours and never get it or not understand why it’s important. There’s a lot of issues with WF, but this is it’s Cardinal Sin to me.
I've had to deal with this in Monster Hunter World, my friend has been raving about how enjoyable the game is... And you know what? When the game shuts up and ACTUALLY allows me to play, learning the mechanics organically through experience and experimentation he's right. It's just a shame for the first god knows how many hours, this game is plagued with interruptions, pointless dialogue and a Story I could not care less about if I tried.
As a fan of the Monster Hunter franchise, i gotta agree, MH and Warframe are very complicated to get into, it's thanks to the community of those games that there are good amount of people trying them out. In my case i play MHW Iceborne regularly to explain and help new people to understand the systems and mechanics of the game.
I often encounter this when it comes to long running anime series as well... (it gets good after 50-100 episodes) and my answer is the same: Why should I bother with something I might like hundred(s) of hours in if I can watch/play something that's enjoyable from the get-go?
I can't think of a single anime that 'gets good after 100 hours'. Usually the first few episodes are slower and more about introducing people and personalities, or the unique setting of the world, and then it quickly picks up pace after that. I mean, if we're talking about GOOD anime. These 500 episode mega anime is just visual shit for teenage kids to ingest. But if we're talking about something like Monster, or Kenshin that's a different story entirely. Anime is not something that usually tip toes around the actual fun. You either like it after 3 hours or you don't. There's usually enough happening in the first 3-4 episodes to get you hooked. Video games are completely different, and so many of them start the game off slow because of progression, and it ruins it's player numbers by being boring and not hooking players in the first 2 or 3 hours.
People always say this shit about One Piece to get people into it and I’m like “no dumbass! It’s good in the first ten episodes, it’s just REALLY FUCKING GOOD 50-100-200-etc. episodes in.”
I've played several games where "it gets good after 100 hours", and honestly, the leveling to max level (or when I get bored) is *always* the bit that's the most fun. Fast xp vs slow xp and boosts ? Fast is only useful if you are the type who levels multiple characters for "endgame" content. Grind, level, level, grind. Yay, I'm finally max level I can relax now and well drat, bored now.
Levelling is legit the core of the RPG experience. Removing it with boosts or fast levelling guts a huge part of the gameplay and learning experience. Pay to quit faster is that putting a stick in your bike spokes meme then complaining about what you did to yourself.
I think it is a bit of a conflict for what MMORPGs are. On one hand, you have the fun of leveling up characters, getting new skills, and gearing up. And generally speaking, you make decent experience, move through interesting areas, learn lore, and so on at a more decent rate while leveling. And without boosts, it isn't too fast, so you get time for things to sink in, to explore, and so on. Plus, if you're with other people that are interested in experiencing the content, you aren't blitzing through the content. But on the other hand, you have the expression "The game begins at max_level". And there is validity to that, at least once the game has some levels. Once you are max level, you have access to all (or almost all) of the game and can work on gear that'll last you a long time. But there is another aspect as well. You're now the same level as most players. And that lets you team up with people and experience the MMO aspect. You can form a group and do the dungeon. But because the goal is now typically something a bit more grindy, there can be a focus on efficiency, on the speed of the run. Some games try to address this by pairing up the max level players with the lower level ones, so the lower level ones can experience group focused dungeons that are not for the maxed levels. But that tends to lead to people who have run the dungeon so much they just want to get to the end for the daily reward combined with people that don't know the dungeon and/or are interested in exploring it, taking their time. Anyway, I expect that's why a lot of people have their max level character(s), but then also alts, so they can experience both sides of it.
Except in Warframe, "after 100 hours" is not the same thing as "after levelling." The reason the 100 hour mark is important is because everything new in the game since the last few years has mostly been added to the post-100 hour mark. Before 30 hours, you just don't get access to even 5% of the game. So to review an entire game, based on the first 2 hours, is nothing more than disingenuous. It's one thing to experience a game for the first time, and its a completely different thing to review it.
The best part of Blade and Soul for me was the leveling part with all the story and world building, and now they've gutted all of the side quests to rush people through to max level. They're not even optional. They're just straight-up removed. Loads of minor characters and stories you can never see now.
I like the leveling experience exactly once for each mmo. After that i have always hated leveling alts since redoing the leveling experience multiple times becomes a chore. Which is annoying because alot of mmos are designed around having alts including grinding.
The moment I saw bullet jumping, deflecting bullets with melee, and mid air glide shooting, I was absolutely hooked on the game and have absolutely loved every second since. That was within the first 15 minutes or so.
How about the moment you saw that there was no direction as for where to go after a certain point in the story? Were you still hooked? Because I'm sure most people weren't.
@@KaikiIsTaken yes, actually I was. I just went through the star chart as that seemed the obvious direction, and occasionally checked my quests and did those as I could. I personally just loved the freedom and that I could do whatever I wanted as much as I wanted. I started in 2018 and am still playing today.
@@KaikiIsTaken i really was because I have common sense and it wasn’t hard at all to hear “check your codex for a mission” and look around the menu for a codex and click on a quest that automatically shows you where you have to go for the mission to start. And no I’m not trying to throw shade at you. But I had to basically hold my friends hands across the game because they wouldn’t use their heads for a second and gaming experience to progress to get what they wanted.
I've been going through ftp morphs, and after destiny 2 it was warframes turn, like destiny's combat more but not enough for me to dislike it, I kust want to know how to get _ appearances, and a check up to make sure I'm not doing a bunch of random stuff
"the majority of your player base will give up after two" that steam trophy means they give up BEFORE 2 hours, as 60% of players don't get the two hour played trophy. Minor gripe, sure, but I think it really drives home the point. As the average gamer, professional dad in my 30s, the games I do play have to hook me early to keep me going. The Average 1 hour a night might be misleading as I think most of us its a little more chaotic and one night you may have 4 or 5(say a weekend) and other nights no time to play at all. So when we get those moments, we want them to be worth the time.
It's connected to the earlier part, where he said that the average player gives a game 2 hours before he/she quits it or not. It is entirely not connected to the trophy bit and therefore confusing.
It certainly could've been worded better. I took it as meaning "the majority of your player base will give up in up to two hours," which doesn't quite flow as well. With the previous context, this comes off at worst as a slightly misspoken.
I think one hour at night is probably common for newborn fathers, and those who have toddlers. However, once the child reaches gaming age (depending on when you want to introduce them so lets age age 10) that time greatly expands. it can even be used as a bonding moment between parent and child.
@@everyonethinksyoureadeathm5773 bro, i dunno avout you but between work and chores and spending time with family, it has a lot less to do with the kid as it does with everything else.
I can safely say after well over 2000 hours in Warframe that it goes through many cycles of being boring to being fun to back to frustratingly boring and everything in between.
Yep, Warframe is more a relationship with good and bad times, more than a definitively good or bad game. I bloody love the game but my god can it be frustrating at times.
For me WF is much better as a "home base" game to come back to between playing all kinds of other games. It just keeps getting new stuff to do and I enjoy it, but definitely spend about 2/3rds of my gaming time elsewhere. Feels about right to me :)
@@SlabHardcheese Yeah, but how can you actually access the content that's being added if you play it like that? A lot of the content is locked before mr14. This only works for veterans.
@@mariosmatzoros3553 I think you are basically right. I definitely went through the dedicated WF period up front. That may be the nature of these deep content games. If you're getting burned out, that is when to take the break IMO. Just come back when you feel it and all that "new content" (if you can access it) will have the bugs worked out and the grind will typically be reduced for you. If you can't access it, then enjoy the content you have at your level and plan to be ready for the following year's tennocon reveals :)
I enjoyed Warframe from the beginning. But I was unaware that it “Got good after 100 hours” because of this I didn’t push hard to the good bit and 300 hours into the game I was hit with the huge change and realized I was playing the tutorial the entire time. So I sunk another 900 hours into the game before it sucked out my soul and left me not wanting to play any games even remotely like it for about 2 years. I enjoyed the game, and would recommend it to anyone but wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if they didn’t like it themselves. I think it targets a very specific audience who of course will love it and be loyal to an extent. But then gives the finger to anyone who doesn’t fit in the specific audience. Especially since the specific audience vindicates them by singing their praises.
I remember in City of Heroes, the first few hours were actually a lot of fun - and it stayed fun for a good long while. The travel powers kicked in a bit later, and then things were really off to the races, but it was always fun to roll up a new character and just run around the starting zones doing the basic missions. So yes, saying it gets good 100 hours in is basically telling me to steer clear of the game.
I mean no.. thats when the story takes a major turn and you begin to get very invested in the world. Also its not 100 hours its much less and its only not fun when you have grinding in mind instead of playing casually
This argument also works in shows and anime "oh but it gets good after 25 episodes!" "Bruh the anime is 28 episodes long..." Or seasons. (Not directed at any specific show)
I love Warframe but I cant defend needing to play hours before the story starts. I guess learning everything about the cool world and design and mechanics is what made me fall in love. But I get why people wouldn't like that. I got hooked on the solid gameplay that got more in depth the better I got at the game, I stayed for all of the systems and the world.
Honestly I love leveling things up and aimless grind. It's relaxing in a sense. I can just throw on music and go do some missions to get some XP. Search for warframes to build, etc. But I know people who *have* to get immersed in a game to enjoy it.
100% this is a game that benefits from a veteran bringing a new player through the start. Not a good circumstance for solo-players in the least. But I have been enjoying the heck out of Warframe, but that's only with having access to another player's vast knowledge.
Exactly. There's a reason there are many clans dedicated to help new players, instead of playing what the devs think is appropriate for their skill and/or knowledge.
I taxid 2 of my friends then they became heavily influential with warframe fngs for Xbox. 1 has over 40 players helped on her own and she helped set up five clans. The other guy about the same level just not with clans. It surprised me a bit when people question why the community "gEtZ tOxIk" over the beginning getting reworked a 5th time it's because players already are the tutorial but solo play is definitely not the name of this game.
@@lldavidll I think for the devs it's more of a looter shooter.. I think they don't put that much effort in the multiplayer thing.. I mean sure you have squads of four but that's all there is to mulitplayer.. I personally have no problem with this.. For me it was fun to explore the game on my own at first (my pc couldn't do multiplayer) but I have to mention there were no open maps or railjack or things like that around when I started so it wasn't so overwhelming. But yes there are many nice people who play warframe to help new players.. and that's a nice thing. And I think every gaming comunity has toxic people some where
There's nothing wrong with having a game take a long time to fully expand its complexity; after all, you shouldn't throw too much at new players all at once. But even from the start, the game should still have enough going for it to be compelling. If the gameplay needs more time to get going, start off with an engaging story hook. If the story is long and needs a lot of buildup, use interesting gameplay to motivate players across those beats.
You comment kinda contradicts itself. You're saying there's nothing wrong with it only really becoming great 100+ hours in while also saying it should already be great up until that point. This video already argues the latter as well
@@Kermit_E_Frog I'm saying it's not wrong for a game to take a long time (100 hours seems excessive but I also look at say fighting games where one can practice for a very long time to master certain elements) to get a player fully into all of its complexities, but that is not the same as saying it's okay for a game to take a long time to be *good*. One way or another, a game needs to be able to stand as an enjoyable experience from the start. I guess it comes down to having a core experience that is enjoyable even before all of its details are revealed.
One of the things that inspired me to play GW2 was seeing online that each expansion comes with a max level boost and the community consensus is you don’t want to use this on your main character. I am on my second character and still haven’t used it because I am going through a different starting storyline. The game doesn’t get good it is good and the hardest part was getting myself to stop treating the early game like an optimization problem
GW2 is definitely my favorite MMO. I came to it after having played wow in high school, which I enjoyed, but gw2 being free was a big benefit. In general the combat is more fun too, and I think the only thing I miss from wow was the clear cut classes. I like dungeons/healing, and it's not a well played mode in gw2 and the classes seem to support with buffs more than straight up heals. Meanwhile a friend is trying to get me into Warframe but I'm not sure I'm enjoying the early gameplay loop. Exploration doesn't feel half as fun, and everything dies so quickly that it's not a struggle for survival even. Other friends also want me to play FF, which I enjoy more than wf, but dear lord that main quest is horrendously long lmao
This is the main reason I usually find mobas or rogue likes more interesting than mmos. You still get to experience progression, but you just start with the fun bit. I don't have to spend weeks or months farming xp to get into a fight against other players. I just hit find match.
It have nothing to do if its a mmo or a rogue like The game is good or not Accept it or not The genre dosnt tell if the games good or not. Your logic is like " Alien is a good game cause its a horror singeplayer huh you say this glitch is stiill there and i can trick the ki with that and that trick nooo youre wrong its a horror singleplayer its a good game " Accept it Good game or not if its a singleplayer, mmo or whatever who cares it should be good or bad but the genre is literally nosense You literally said mobas are more interesting then mmos but lol the most played moba in the world is the most hated game in the same time Thasts the perfect proof.
@@sonicartzldesignerclan5763 You do realize that everything you said is utter garbage, right? You just told a person who says they don't like MMOs because progression takes forever that "iT dOeSn'T mAtTeR tHe GeNrE". Are you even reading your posts before you press the send button? MMOs OBJECTIVELY take longer to progress than a MOBA or Roguelike, which is the ONLY thing this person said. You're trying to argue that they're wrong and then bring in a point that has absolutely nothing to do with what the guy was talking about in the first place. The only "perfect proof" here is that you didn't bother to even read his post.
@@sonicartzldesignerclan5763 man just read the comment properly before you make such a response that has barely anything to do with the original comment. He just said that MMOs take longer to get to good bits of the game which is just a fact. For MMOs you have to invest into it quite a bit more than most other games
MMO's work by promising fun through progression and then never deliver it but instead make you think more progression will make it fun. As soon as I stopped playing MMO's I realised they were boring as hell 99% of the time and the only reason I was playing was to progress in the hopes of it becoming fun.
I don't really think stockholm syndrome is accurate, in a fair amount of cases games do become objectively better than what was previously experienced after a longer amount of play time in retrospect, real issue is why does it have to take that long to start being good? The game might as well be considered bad at that point
@@ortah2616 So being held captive to a game by either friends or others telling you that it gets better after x hours, that is generally seen as bad/subpar/middling for the first hurdle of that time, isn't Stockholm Syndrome? My dude that's like, the definition of HOW Stockholm Syndrome develops. "Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response. It occurs when hostages or abuse victims bond with their captors or abusers. This psychological connection develops over the course of the days, weeks, months, or even years of captivity or abuse." You start to feel for the devs and their "passion", or develop unhealthy bonds with Ortis/Kubrow/your frame/clem. You also can't tell me that archwings, railjack, and the open world areas aren't torturously repetitive. The entire game is a skinner box designed to make you praise the devs for all their hard work, and spacemom at people who don't appreciate both it, and the hard work of the other tenno. If they cut down the amount of time and effort it would take to get to The Second Dream to... say 10 hours, the game wouldn't stick. The reason why it wouldn't stick is because the person wouldn't feel any attachment or investment to that character. I'm not gonna say that Warframe is a bad game, mechanically, but I will say that it's basically a Jackson Pollock painting made game. It's a big mess of poorly explained colors all splashed together for you to decide if it's worth your time or not to "interpret."
@@TheBrokensaintvxvx I would argue it's more "sunk cost fallacy". "Hey, I had my doubts, then I put in 100 hours, and after spending so much *time* (and/or *money*) I am inclined to agree, it really does get good/interesting after this amount of time. I'm glad I stuck with it." It's how a lot of Gacha games also play out and it creates a bias to where you want to affirm that what you have experienced is the *right way*, so you charge other people with doing exactly what you did so that they can get the "authentic experience".
Stockholm Syndrome: psychological response. It occurs when hostages or abuse victims bond with their captors or abusers. This psychological connection develops over the course of the days, weeks, months, or even years of captivity or abuse. Fomo: a social anxiety stemming from the belief that others might be having fun while the person experiencing the anxiety is not present. Sunk Cost Fallacy: The phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it, even when it is clear that abandonment would be more beneficial. Tell me how these three things don't apply on one another? Gacha games, and most FTP/mmo/mmolite/mmorpgs all capitalize on these things. Think about Warframe, and the terms of endearment thrown at the in game antagonist. Who it is, and how people felt when it was revealed. Then, go onto DE's twitch/youtube channel and just WATCH the simping chat.
"Trust me it gets better after x" I'm not going to stick around until it gets fun. If the game sucks and I'm not enjoying it I will simply stop playing the game. Telling players to "Just keep going, it gets better!" Is an excellent way to make players feel pressure to play the game which ultimately (at least for me) takes away a majority of the fun. Not to mention that in those 10, 50, 100+ hours there's a very high chances that I will burn myself out trying to get to "the fun part". This typically makes me resent a game leading to my inevitable departure.
"Trim the excess off and place quality over quantity." Josh is a man of culture, I approve. Whether it's something recreational or not, even a job you first had as a hobby for example, it's important to like it in order to keep going at it. Else you'll just end up switching the moment you have a proper opportunity to do so.
While the Devs do some great work in Warframe, the lack of animation quality, level imbalance and story design is disappointing. They were given the ball, but dropped it This is why I can't get into MMOs or Mmo-like games, and I do consider gaming a hobby at my leisure. I need more than just "Do big numbers" though.
@@Celestialbeing21 Then warframe just isn't for you, it wasn't for me either. That doesn't mean something like FFXIV, PoE, or upcoming New World isn't. But even then, those games do require a certain level of commitment. You might prefer something more instantaneous and gratifying like Doom, LoL, or Apex. It doesn't mean any of these games are bad, it just means they appeal to different people.
"If you see slogging through the beginning as a badge of honor, you're malicious." OSRS community in a nutshell. Vote "no" on anything that give skills more options to train.
In fairness, OSRS is fun from like 5 minutes in. But I'm not a fair critic, I put literally 30,000 hours into Runescape before I quit because I realized I was addicted. Edit: So yeah, actually (not a joke) ignore me because I genuinely cannot possibly be unbiased on the topic. I don't know what I'm talking about or what the experience must be like for new players.
I vote yes on literally every poll without reading it at this point. If it's such a terrible idea then the OSRS Team wouldn't propose it in the first place.
As Warframe addict i appreciate you talking about this. keep them coming.. this game is great but has many MANY flaws that can easily fixed but just isn't.
I loved Warframe from the start. I damn hated the need to finish all the planets. I hated to farm rep. But after some time... I started enjoying rep farming, because I wanted the reward - it will somehow help me play more smoothly, easily or makes me stronger. I damn loved the option to run the planets again in steel path. If Warframe spills on you all the content, stuff you can do, places you can go, things you can unlock/farm/grind/buy in these two hours - you would quit also no matter what. You need to feel the passion to explore and dive into all the stuff to enjoy it, this all can't happen in two hours in such complex mmo. It's the same with EVE let's say. Once you understand the complexity, then it's fun because you know what to do. It just can't be told in such short time-span. And I think the problem with 60% of people not making it into 2hours is mostly due to how different Warframe is. I have a lot of passionate MMO friends, many of them liked ingame systems... just didn't like the sci-fi hyper-paced theme of WF, but they gave it a shot anyway - thus not hitting two hours. So it's kinda unfair or even rude, talking this bad about devs when this 2hrs achievement is not showing the numbers. Warframe is the best MMO imho: (and hell yea, I've played a lot of frikin MMOs for thousands of hours in total) - free huge content updates kinda regularly. - zero need to pay - everything is farm-able/grind-able - trade community is great (wf.market) - great learning curve - great (sometimes deep) lore - free! Don't take it offensively, I watch you for years - and I often agree with most parts of your vids. Just wanted to share my opinion. 🖖
I have a love-hate relationship with WF. On one hand I like the grinding, farming rare stuff, the base gameplay is great. But then I hate how the game forces you to level up all the weapons and warframes - even the bad ones - if you want to get better stuff. They could just make leveling up your character like in a normal MMO. You have built and modded a cool shotgun and you are a shotgun guy. But if you want more shotguns, you need to first level up bunch of weapons that are either boring or weak or both. You craft the weapons only to level them up for a gazillion hours and then sell them because you can't even have unlimited inventory space for weapons and Warframes. That does feel like a huge waste of time. And then you realise there's hundreds of weapons you need to level up in the same way instead of actually playing the game. You spend most of the time running with some random bad gear without mods instead playing stuff YOU want to play because the progression system is built that way.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Me: Hey Chef, this dish will be good in 99 more iterations.
Chef: You're fired.
Omg lol, nice to see you here Chef o7
Me: But now it comes with an anime lolita Warframe with water and tentacles not made to exploit their dirty minds.
Chef: I am calling security.
"Hey Chef, this dish has 99 more iterations but the first 10 pretty much sums it up."
Doesn't work either.
@@jorgeporras9262 his strategy has worked!
"I'm fired? What will I do now?"
"Get kidnapped by terrorists. You'll like them after 100 hours."
"It gets better after school, uni and 10 years of experience."
Spoiler: it doesn't
@@christianmartinez2179 😔
Yeah I think the writing and the gameplay elements for the first 25 to 30 years of "life" are pretty weak, but it gets good after that. Sometimes. Maybe.
:D
@@lot8113 the first 16-18 years of gametime is pretty good if you choose the right storyline
If i ever make a game, I'll have an achievement called "i hope it got good" for anyone who played 100 hours of my game
I would buy that game only for that achievement
Good shit 😂
"Its all about the endgame" - Has no endgame
@@IronicSonics that would be the achievement for anyone crazy enough to play 1000 hours
bro, pls develop game, i need these achievements
Warframe's biggest issue is that the Main Storyline "starts" waaaaaaayyyy too late. Like, you need to get through half the starchart before it actually starts. And then one of the newer Main Quests require you to grind a metric fuckton to get something that barely matters in said quest
Totally agree, the story gets good way to late.
But “The new war” and “Angles of zariman”
Got me so hocked for the game again!!
Who’s the war frame in the thumbnail?I don’t play it
@@TikatsuHyunhoThe frame in the thumbnail is Yarelli. She's a quest frame that you unlock by basically becoming Tony Hawk in Warframe.
@@TikatsuHyunho yareli
Warframe story is trash stop lying.. warframe has alot of big issues...
When I started calling out Elite Dangerous' flaws, I was told that I hadn't played enough of the game. So I dropped a hundred hours, came back, and was told that I had no room to talk because I'd gotten my money's worth.
There's no winning against people who don't want to listen because they don't like your opinion.
EDIT: Coming back here after a while because Warframe added a new "New Player Experience" in the form of Duviri and it is literally the worst possible NPE that they could have made.
Elite has the opposite problem: Only the first 100 hours are actually good.
@@asmahasmalaria8596 well for me and many friends they killed it after announcing that support for consoles will end and they aren’t dropping next gen versions of the game. I do have a acc on pc too, but idc much anymore.
@@xSoulhunterDKx For me they killed if after Horizons as the content just ended, even the latest expansion is very lacklustre and is more grinding for little reward
@@AudioCalibrator ikr. Grind is one thing, but it isn’t even fun. They should redesign Elite dangerous Entirely with their core mechanics. It need to be less grindy, more fun.
I just recently played warframe again and visited deimos (open world (island) content there). It’s far better designed as the previous two I’m Warframe and I then realized, Devs need to go back and revisit older places too.
Elite basically never did that. Warframe did, but there are still plenty of boring as well as annoying mechanics for time gating the game
There are a tad bit too many of these kinds of people and they are spreading like wild fire.
Whether Warframe gets good in 10 minutes or 100 hours is dependent upon how fast you find someone to explain it to you
That and watch a ton of videos explaining the systems. that being said I LOVE!! Warframe I happily sank 2,000 hours into it and I still love it. it's not for everyone but I was hooked in the first hour and it didn't take me 100 hours to "get good" it was good from the start, at least to me. I am a veteran now with all the warframes and a ton of weapons but I would happily wipe my memory and start from scratch just to experience the game for the first time again.
That's how my friends enjoyed it. I started playing it years ago when I had nothing better to do, played for hundreds of hours alone. Fast forward some years, I hadn't touched the game in about a year and a new update just hit. My friends are interested and ask me to play with them, I agree. They got to enjoy it from the first moment as I was there to... well... hold their hand and guide them forward with the mechanics and telling them what to expect. Exceptions were the friends who started with Mag thinking the concept was coolest but early Mag gameplay is shite and they dropped the game before the 2 hour mark.
This! Warframe should just emphasize the clan aspect more, because finding a clan was how I really found out how to do stuff
Eh. It falls back to "The game is fun with friends" which translates to "My friends are the only reason I didn't drop the game". Also, what is explaining Warframe gonna do for your friend?
"Here's some spoilers about the story. It's awesome. It actually works this way". Takes the fun out of experiencing the story. Or maybe you're not dropping spoilers but instead just hyping them up for the rest? Which works I guess but there's still a lot of time needed in-between to tackle a lot of the story (unlocking planets, unlocking the railjack, unlocking necramechs, unlocking etc etc etc etc etc), which goes back to the 100 hour argument.
"If you grind 100 hours and find the right mods, forma your weapon 5 times, give it a potato, and buy a hyper expensive riven mod, your gun is gonna do some crazy things". Okay, how is that relevant to me now? 100 hours.
"You can actually fish and hunt faster on Earth if you get a dye that makes the fish glow". Doesn't change the grind. 100 hours.
I don't understand the defense for Warframe. I've played it since beta and have several thousands of hours myself. At one point, I created a new account because I had already gotten everything in the game and mastered it, before the introduction of MR2. Going through the early game without any mods at max with weak guns and with a mountain of grind and waiting for the foundry to complete things was so dauntingly disgustingly boring, I just went back to my normal account in less than a week. I COULD'VE spent money to buy mods with platinum from people, but what's the point in that? That's a horrible way to begin playing a game, feeling forced to pay. Could've also just gifted myself the mods I needed from my main account, but that defeats the purpose of starting over no?
Time to face the music. Warframe is a boring grind. Some people can stomach that grind, and perhaps even like it. But like the point of this video says, why lock the good stuff behind a massive wall of nothing good?
@@Shiraigan Damn sounds like one anti-social problem, often people just give the starter mods with some brief guide to where the new player need to go
I agree that the craft system is horrendous with that 12-24-73 hours wait to get your shit, it needs to change
Game devs should aim for: "It's good, but it gets BETTER the more you play."
Aka Warframe :)
Breath of the Wild definitely follows that
@@west_0129 wow i was thinking exactly this
This is precisely what they did with Warframe.
i mean....it DOES xD the game has a shit tonne of content, almost too much, the gating isnt all that great.
As a Warframe veteran, i agree with you, Josh. my best friend wanted to join me in Warframe, since it is my favorite game after the Mass Effect franchise. however, being a working class upstanding young man, my best friend hit me with the most heartwrenching "Maybe but i don't have the time right now".
as of now, i want to make everything in my power to help new players. my whole clan left the game because of a gameplay overhaul (Status Rework sounds like Vietnam for me now) so i've given some mods, even some primes to new players for free. just in hope i will see them again and have fun in a 30 min defense.
Warframe veterans, Please stop bitching about play time, or boosts. they're here so we can all play together, working 30 Y/O dads and 23 no-life like me can play together because of that. instead, lend them a hand, you know. gift them a multishot mod instead, you have plenty, they have none, and your kindness will make them stay longer.
You are part of why the Warframe community is amazing. Thank you. I hope you are still having fun with the game. I’m currently still playing it and I brought a friend into it
I didn’t have any of the prime frame parts for the Frame they wanted so I did the next best thing. I farmed up the parts with them and bought some from other players
They best way to help new players is to be the help we never got and for those of us who were there for year 1 to share the information we didn’t have access to
We are both still playing and now I have two end game builds and she’s working on leveling Voruna now. I Myself am thinking about farming Nekros Prime and I’m usually always messing around with new weapon configurations ☺️
Again, thank you for being the best part of Our Community
@@dragonoflegend8798 hey. thank you man. your story warmed my heart. and i sure do hope you enjoy playing the game too. i know i am. found a new clan, decent people all around.
@@Wargulf2838 I’m glad to hear it ☺️
I just found out about Tau Forged Archon shards so I’m preparing for that lol
@@dragonoflegend8798 good luck about that, i must say, archon hunts are the epitome of what that video denounces for me. but hey, i hope you'll find fun in those :)
Gifted a new friend colour palette just so they could customize their Warframe a bit better at the start. Massive change in how much longer they played the game for. When the devs don't do a great job of onboarding players, it falls onto the community. And while it shouldn't be our job, if you want someone to do something more often, make the experience enjoyable for them.
What I remember most from a game no matter the genre is the beginning. The discovering and learning of a game is so amazing. It oddly holds a bittersweet emotion to the memory though.
I have a friend who always tries to explain how to play every new game we try. He never understands when I tell him to shut up and let me learn. It's my favorite part of every new game I play.
@@ProclarushTaonas Same. I like to be completely on my own and make mistakes when first playing. I will most likely make a new fresh account after I've decided I know enough or have made too many mistakes and then try to avoid the same mistakes. It feels great comparing your first and second time playing and you can tell you have grown. That stuff feels great. Absolutely hate when people try to spoonfeed and backseat me when I'm super early into a game where I have ample time to experiment and start over if needed.
@@cecilasen Exactly this. Ill ask if I have a specific question, otherwise, let me make the mistakes.
I still remember playing Fable The Lost Chapters for the first time.
@@ProclarushTaonas hopefully he doesn’t ruin story, because that first play through is something special.
I have a little over 3,000 hours in League of Legends. I’ve had many friends ask me if they should play it, I always tell them “If you’re willing to sit through at least 100 hours of not having fun and people shit talking you for not having played for 10 years, then sure.”
Surprisingly, none of my friends have began playing League because of me. I’m glad even if I’m too far gone I’ve managed to save a few people.
I salute your dedication to keeping people from playing LOL. You will be remembered. 🫡
Save yourself
i tell my mates all the time league is shit since when u are a new player you are hopeless learning not only 150+ champions no u need to learn managment decision making all items and and and.... but for some reason they quit after 1-2 games then come back the next hour just do repeat it again xD the classic move
thissss!!!!!
Doing gods work
This video gets good after he repeats the same point for 10 minutes.
You can tell it's on purpose too. It's just to stretch the video to 15 mins so he gets ad money.
These videos would be a lot better with a better written script that has less repeating in it, and 10-12 mins long.
Cut the fluff, Give more suggestions on how to improve something that you're making the video on. Give an example. You can fill out your videos this way AND be less repetitive.
@@truckywuckyuwu why are you giving him suggestions about making "better videos" when you literally said he stretched it out for money... If that's what he's doing, he doesn't need any extra advice.
@@queerlibtardhippie9357 good videos bring in money, stretched out bullshit becomes tiring and loses the capability to be monetized
@@truckywuckyuwu well his youtube content seems to be making a lot more money than yours
@@truckywuckyuwu I mean... He did cover what the title said. Which was kind of the point of the video, repetative or not. But good to know you still watched it through just to complain.
I've never gotten why after years (Warframe as an example) games don't add progression or suggested paths to easily lead newer players along while still allowing free path choices. You don't have to add an immense story all the way but side quests with a bit of lore story here and there are engaging enough to keep attention. The sarcastic AI can throw in random hints like "are you gonna upgrade your mods anytime soon?" Or "this planet is getting stale, let's work our way to Uranus." Those small pushes keep people from scratching their heads or coming up with what they think they should be doing. It helps players to work forward rather than back.
Everything you've mentioned here is in Warframe. Did you play it 5 years ago or something?
@@NickHunter yea I did lol. Since that comment I've played Warframe again and enjoyed every bit of it
bro i had the same thing i last played in 2018 or so. now i see videos of starting a new game and its so much better explained and explored @@Hollex0
@@Hollex0 One of us
@@NickHunterall that guided progression only takes you up to %0.001
To me, "It gets good after 100 hours" sounds like that is the point where the stockholm syndrome starts to kick in.
It is actually, sunk cost fallacy is a hard drug
While I agree with the OP, I must point out that if you don't have 100 hours of free time per month, you are NOT A GAMER. Period.
@@StarboyXL9 wrong, 8 hours per week aka 36 per month is what is needed to be pretty much a good raider in a wow like MMO as you on average need like 4 hours weekly for raid completion + extra 4 hours for progressing a raid
@@ariezon Have you convinced yourself that spending time is less likely to trigger this than spending money? You have my pity.
@@StarboyXL9 Exactly, there is a certain amount of time spent in average a day, for you to be able to call yourself a gamer.
If you don't meet those average hours, you are JUST a xxxx that plays games, NOT a gamer... in my opinion.
"The average gamer plays for about an hour and ten minutes a day" This has shown me how skewed my own perception is.
And most of that time is probably not spending on front of a console or computer but on their phone while commuting to work.
While I agree with the point he is making, I feel like it is kind of misrepresenting the data. It's just over 8hours/week, on average. This means that there's a lot of people that are a lot higher, and a lot lower. Also many of the "average" will be playing only 1-2 days/week and not every day, this means that a average "play session" will be about 4hours, not just over 1.
Arguments that present the "average" person as only playing for 1-2 hours/day is how we get systems like WoWs world quest that are designed around a large burst of rewards, with a relatively short time investments, but *require* the player to log in each day, or the "daily login rewards" in mobile gaming. These types of reward structures tend to hurt the capability of players who have a "average" play time, but condense it all to a "friday/saturday grind" instead of "1-2 hours before bed".
More like how skewed that garbage study was. There is absolutely no way that is true considering the largest game on the planet (fortnight) has More players than almost all triple A titles out right now combined. The average player on fortnight is like 10-12. As soon as he said the study this video immediately become untrue.
@@noahberkel3668 Weird, never heard of this "Fortnight" game. Are you sure "Fortnight" really is the most popular game out there? I feel like I wouldve heard about "Fortnight".
I do kind of wonder if it includes the people that play 0 hours a day. I know many casual gamers and they play more than 4 hours a week.
Warframe needs more early game oriented quests. a quest specifically about getting from earth to venus would be a great way to teach moding and how junctions work
indeed. to be fair they did a lot to make the new Player experience better. when i started it at launch it was very basic. unfortunately every time they focus on bettering the early game angry screeching vets swoop in....
The initial goal is going through the map nodes to unlock and complete everything. The open worlds on earth and venus just so happen to also be available pretty early.
Warframe is an amazing game. I played from its Beta, and you should be glad that there actually IS a Tutorial now... because there didn't used to be.
That said, I have a real issue with Josh's take on people being mad about MMO level boosts. None of the reasons he cited are the REAL reason people get mad about boosts. The reason people in MMOs hate boosters is because they get to end game with NO IDEA HOW TO PLAY THE GAME... and then expect you to carry them through the content. Even if they're familiar with the game already, they still don't know how to play THAT character. That's bad for everyone.
What I really dislike about boosting is that it means that the MMO developer has decided that everyone ONLY wants to play their end game content, which to me is the opposite of what an MMO is about. An MMO should be fun through ALL of its content, and be fun and challenging at low levels just as much as at its end game. WoW's focus on end game is probably the worst thing to happen to MMOs, in general, because it has fueled this attitude throughout the industry. An MMO should be about overcoming challenges and social interaction, and preferably about using said social interaction to overcome said challenges. That's what Blizz doesn't get about WoW Classic's success. Its not that the game is better, its that people are forced to travel through a shared space and presented challenges they can't overcome by themselves! That forces people to help each other, and despite the typical idea of how gamers act, most players in WoW classic were incredibly helpful!
@@cirescythe they did do very well, but they can also do better
Agree. I did the intro or what it was back then, with Loki. The second quest was with Mr 10 with my first prime weapon. Next quest Mr 16 2 forma rhino prime. Years apart.
I got into Warframe earlier this year. I wouldnt describe its problem as "it gets good after 100 hours" so much as "you arent going to fully know what youre doing for at least 100 hours". The gameplay itself feels quite enjoyable independent of the overall objectives, and you can still very easily have fun. Regardless of the steep game-knowledge curve, you should know pretty quickly whether you are the type of person to like Warframe or not after only a handful of hours.
After about 5 hours I don’t like it
I love this paradox. You need to play for 100 hours or more apparently to critique it fairly. But if you say it's trash after those 100 hours the response I see often is "no it's not you've played X hours so obviously it's good enough for you to play that long!"
Oh yeah I heard that a lot when I critized Dark Souls II or Just Cause 4. And probably other games. I play most games to completion if I enjoy some aspect of it. And I am a complenionist, so running around in Just Cause and collecting everything is what I enjoy, regardless of the quality of the rest of the game. And Just Cause 4 is garbage.
@@Soapy-chan_old hey, you guys wanna play in a massive, soulless open world with no substance to it in the next installment of just cause?
"Actually uh, we would just like some multiplayer and thatd be fine"
MASSIVE EMPTY WORLD WITH NO MULTIPLAYER IT IS THEN
@@Biggssyyy lol yeah
I played it 3 times, first time at beta or year 1 of the game (liked it, but got burn out by it) , last time few years ago and just didnt like it, it just felt empty, pointlessly grindy and clunky. I guess i have over 300-400 hours
@@Soapy-chan_old i agree. Jc4 is only good for collecting items, and messing around. The game is pure ass in every single way except from those.
It doesnt get good after a 100 hours, it gets good after you meet someone who actually explains the game to you, which is one of its greatest downfalls.
It gets good after you unlock the broken gear/mechanics so you can feel like Doom Slayer. Warframe is a perfect example. Takes too long to achive or tell anything significant, too easy, too grindy. And I am telling this as someone with nearly 1000 hours on the game. I switched over to Destiny 2 which is more challenging, less grindy and you get access to a lot of stuff lvl 1. It has a more fleshed out story which I adore as a lore nerd and it feels like what Warframe should have been. I still love both games, ripping and tearing until it is done is awesome in both but being able to survive high difficulty infinite missions while being solo for nearly a whole hour where your hp barely even gets damaged is not fun, it feels like you are just ripping out overgrown weed that can move around and tickle you.
Too true I hate how games never handhold anymore
@@jamesrustles8670 I dont think they have to hand hold, but suddenly throwing you out there with no hint as to where the main quest is, isnt a good thing.
@@jamesrustles8670 they should guide but not hand hold, I don't want to be treated like an idiot but I also want to have a sense of direction and knowing how to do something
@@SgM-1000 Right, the "figure it out by your own - stuff" should not be in the first basic activities, like modding, or how to use the codex.
It took me weeks, until I checked, the market is not necessarily only for real money....^^
And is there still no Bo, or Skana stance for free at the beginning?......:)
"It Gets Better After 100 Hours"is basically "Wait for the sunk cost fallacy to kick in".
That's basically saying that there's no such thing as anything worth while after a bad 100 hours. In fact, if you watched the video, he never actually makes that point, in fact his B-roll footage is of a game that takes at least 100 hours to get to the good part. The point of the video is that "play for 100 hours" is just bad game design, but it doesn't actually speak to the quality of the good parts of the game.
@@floofzykitty5072 copium addict
@@verigumetin4291 There are plenty of games that honestly are really good after a bad start. The creator of the video literally RECOMMENDS FFXIV despite it having the most atrocious early game. After you get past the horrible early game it is literally one of the best Final Fantasy games to have been made.
@@floofzykitty5072 you are right, I was actually making a mean joke, that's it. Also, I am incensed since I do not have one hundred hours to give to a game anymore. And those games that are "fun" without the one hundred hour investment are basically meaningless time sinks. I am at that point in my life where if a game needs more then ten hours to get fun, it just straight up sucks objectively, for me. Not sure that makes sense but whatever.
@@verigumetin4291 That is totally ok. To give another example, my cousin, formerly a huge gamer in his teenager years, stopped playing games entirely after he became 20y old. He now rather reads books or draws stuff instead of playing games because he feels like his time is better spent... And he is totally right about that.
I however love games and hope to work at a Game Studio one day for cinematic story telling (cutscene design) or the narrative/character design.
.
Interesting seeing this debate resurface with Starfield! It used to be a common argument with F2P games and MMOs, but having someone use it to defend a AAA single player game is incredibly strange in comparison.
Was just coping. Starfield was and is bad. It makes no sense that it even exists.
Starfield was just too big to not spend so much time. Especially since the way travel works, needing more resources to get punished by the higher level enemies. Bethesda tried something they weren't good at, failed, and I hope the elderscrolls 6 will go back to basics
I really enjoy WF but I'm not exactly thrilled about the "It gets better after 100 hrs" I know for a fact a lot of people just won't vibe with the game, and that's fine lol. Wanting someone to play more of something they can't get into just makes them miserable until stockholm kicks in. I'd rather play with people that actually enjoy it like I do.
If it atleast stayed good that be one thing, but it doesn't
@@danielnolan8848 this is fair warframe has a curve something like this.
Tutorial: yees
Post tutorial starmap grind: Mostly nooo with a bit of yeess mixed in there
Post-system cool shit: Yesss
many many hours in trade chat to be able to get more slots and such to get more cool shit: *please end my suffering*
More cool shit: *yeees*
you've burned through all the content: Hol up
Content replay value is very limited: *Fuck*
It was good then kicked itself of a cliff
@@expertoflizardcorrugation3967 I'd say the steel path changes have been a large benefit for the "end game" but it doesn't quite fit the hole left by raids. As of now endgame content consists of three pillars; sorties, steel path alerts, and relics, (arguably nightwave too). Which is a better state then for endgame then the last 5 years
Honestly if your not enjoying yourself after a couple hours chances are you just stop or aleast that is my experience.
For warframe it's closer to 40 but that still ain't great, and It really only relates to plot, gameplay never changes (And maybe it should)
You have, in 6 hours of watching various videos you've made, helped me revise and improve my game design documents to improve the potential experience of my players. I've enjoyed this video, your Seven Deadly Sins video, and a LOT of your Worst MMO Ever videos. Thank you for making them.
What are you developing and where can I get it or watch footage etc.?
i'd like to know as well.
I feel like the 2 hour achievement is definitely for the devs to know what’s going on
devs have way more detailed metrics than the achievement. Its more for us to know whats going on. And i have to say that 40% retention rate for 2h is pretty impressive for a f2p game.
Having played the game i understand why.
@@spinnenente Also, it depends on when the achievement was implemented. If it was back when the game poor and starting out, then yeah. It would make sense that a lot of people didn't play for that long. And it could actually be a sign that the game rose since the humble beginnings. If it's a newer achievement, then it's a bit worse.
@@spinnenente im of two minds about warframe. i love the lore of it, and the combat is fast and fluid. i would liken it to destiny but youre a robot ninja child soldier with magic powers instead of an immortal zombie with magic powers. so i understand why the retention is so high. on the other hand, i personally felt confused and unwelcome to it with a lot of the content seeming to be visible to me but not accessible and i couldnt figure out how to access things. so i also understand why 60% of people try it and leave within that first two hours. i stuck with it longer than two hours but i definitely didnt stick with it for longer than maybe six or seven.
Hi twilly
@@BigFry9591 if it's a newer achievement, that means there's some people who can never achieve it because they already played over two hours
Things that took me less than 100 hours:
- Beating The Witcher 3
- Beating all the seasons of Telltale's The Walking Dead
- Beating Dark Souls 2 three times
- Beating Hollow Knight four times
- Beating Shadow of Mordor and Shadow Of War
- Watching 8 seasons of Game Of Thrones
- Learning to make a video game in Game Maker Studio
- Learning enough guitar to not sound like an amateur
- Writing for an hour each day when competing in NaNoWriMo
100 hours is a truckload of time. To do that consecutively, that'd be each and every one of your waking moments for a week. If you spent three hours a day on something, that'd still take you over three months to do, and that's if you don't miss a single day. 100 hours is a lot. It is a lot of fucking time.
Rare to see an individual that likes Dark Souls 2.
Easy, take leave, don’t sleep for just over 4 days, and play their MMO for 100 hours consecutively. (And die, because people have died like that)
Things that took me less than 100 hours.
- calling your mother
- meeting up with your mother
- busting a fat gooey load all over her
- master grapefruit technique
- dunking my fat nuts in oil and jumping over a lit fire naked
@@Ausar_The_Vile1 I would say that unless you neglect hydratation and nourishment it would take a bit longer to die
Maths ain't mathing there
Honestly Warframe could probably at least double how many people get to 2 hours if it had a pop up tutorial that made modifications seem less intimidating to new players. Though the fact that it is free to play and something like 8 years old probably doesn't help. Also mods do have a decent tutorial, two technically, but neither are immediately noticeable and they are both easy to miss, thus why pop up tutorial would make a world of difference to new players.
DE is at a point where I think almost everything they are doing is for the sake new content to keep the highest playtime people from leaving, I don't know when they added the new intro but its probably been over a year and yet since I started playing in 2019 I don't think they have done anything for the tutorial, and this was an issue when I started the game because I didn't understand it and so I had to go online and I still don't know if I really understand all the systems after 600+ hours.
@@ImTakingYouToFlavorTown the only thing i know that warframe is working on is the next prime rotation, the new lore stuff, and mabye a little more railjack stuff
Warframe would have more people playing if they got rid of the "farm for weeks at a time then congrats! Your reward is waiting an additional 24 hours"
@@XHiddenXSniperX What if that 24 hour waiting period is an incentive to spend/buy platinum that helps fund the game to make more quality content that will attract more playing people?
@@bdv4622 It is an incentive to spend money but its a terrible one, if you spent a week farming materials but get told you can't have the item you farmed for an additional 24 hours you'd probably be pretty annoyed
Me, a 33-year-old father of 3 gamer dad: "Hey, that's me".
me a 30 year old newly-wed "oh no, that's going to be me"
Hello me, its me again. But yeah, i also fit this demo.
@@onering20 congrats!
God bless you gamer
just turned 30 in feb, expecting my third kid,
i feel targeted
"That book gets good 100 pages in." "But it's only 99 pages long." "Exactly."
But in the case the book does get better after 100 pages and there are a potential thousands of them… I mean I would be intrigued if I were a book reader.
I probably started playing in 2013 but left immediately bc warframe was too confusing for me at that time lmao. Later on returned in 2015 and ever since then I had a blast until 2019. My playtime became: log in, read the chat while bullet jumping and log off until I finally uninstalled.
@@devar7502 apparently the devs are almost finished with more of the new story
Nah., The game is good, and once you get in it, and understand the systems and put your time into it, cuse this no normal game that you have the story and dadada.. its a mmorpg and one of the most complete ones ive found. The trade.. the coop.. the grind/farm the missions the 50 ways you can do stuff the variety of stuff the implements they always making, ill give you this , is no beguinner friendly game yeah.. but if you have half a 1% IQ you know how to ask people and let me tell you this is the most helpful community you will find in a game
@@V01DIORE oftentimes a book will spend much too long setting up the scene and introducing characters which is why that can be a legit argument
There's a third reason people get angry at buying boosters: It encourages developers to keep selling them, which creates a domino effect that makes the rest of the game worse with even more heinous microtransactions. I think there was an article a while back where a monetization specialist actually said "Hey, you're the ones buying it, we'd be stupid to stop selling it."
You gotta balance that argument though as the developers are trying to entertain you, but they and their families need to eat too. It is good to watch out for though. Heck look at how botched Darktide is because the historically loved developer got greedy or is trying to placate TenCent and scum as much money as they can from people.
@@MorteWulfe Right, but that's kinda the thing; the onus is on the developers to create a monetization system which makes the least amount of people upset. So when they get a wealth of criticism from people telling them they're doing it wrong, usually it's BECAUSE they're doing it wrong, and people notice; and they notice those who participate in buying those monetization systems are feeding into a spiral of overmonetization.
thats why ethical to shame the people who buy them
not harrass,just shame
Who’s the war frame in the thumbnail?
@@TikatsuHyunho yareli
When I first played warframe I was a 15yo kid with a lot of free time, spending 5-6 hours/day on high school and all of the remaining time by playing warframe. I got to mr29 and got everything the game could offer. Even when I was on college I had a lot of free time to play it (I have 3.5k hours steam/2.3k ingame) and I used to recommend warframe to all my friends, it is one of the best games I've ever played tbh. But I can't recommend it anymore, with no time at all to invest, it will be extremely boring and it takes too long to have any progress so I prefer arcade games or a good single player one. If I had to start warframe from the begenning today I would drop it before the 2h mark, everything after the tutorial to before lvling up all of the basic mods (like serration, vitality, etc) and getting a good warframe to solo most of the missions is just bad and not worth the time invested. And I'm not even mentioning the time gate of forging warframes, weapons, archwings and the railjack.
The problem with warframe is that you need a lot of time to stop depending on veterans and actually learn how to farm things by yourself and when you get this knoledge, the game just clicks, it's awesome. But it takes too long, and just like me, veterans naturally are having less time to invest, losing the new players by the game design and the old ones by the lack of time.
I mean warframe also has an incredibly serious issue of no there not being a late game to look forward to. Once you've reached a certain point, even as veteran all you do is just grind the same spots over and over again to prep for new content. because there's no raids. The weapons you can craft dont have an intricate forging process like final fantasy, there is no advanced class system. nothing. It's frankly pitiful that there's just nothing to do anymore except prep for new update at some point.
@Dampfkartoffel also railjack is buggy, its not that bad if you are solo but in multiplayer you are playing with fire, and should be prepared to potentially lose your progress for no reason.
They are losing vets too at least on Xbox. People complain about the game being hard to learn. I never had this problem. I played solo until Eris and was fine. My complaint is that the new content is boring to me. Scarlet Spear was fun to play until you had a Limbro on your team. ISO vaults we’re fun until you glitched through the map. This game has never had a clean update for as long as I’ve played. There are at least 2 chat mods on Xbox that will ban you for no reason. One has been suspended 3 times and at that point I say you fire them. Chat was what made Warframe fun after you finish the planets and play every frame. I wish there was a place in game place where you could put suggestions and they could be upvoted or downvoted like Reddit.
I played the game as a teen, got a hundred hours at least. Then dropped the game cause i stopped having fun(just unlocked steel path and got bored of railjack)
As of the new players even if they go up some mr you just feel gate kept until you've gotten all the way up to the 10s...
Having just graduated and working full time made me realize there's a choice you make with mmorpgs, you either stop so you can play other games or invest all your free time into the singular one
It get's worse at some point when you have a girlfriend or a family then you can't even invest into 1 rpg single player game let alone a mmo
Damn makes me think to stay single forever lol
I have played hundreds of games for 5 to 10 hours..... I have only played about 20, 30+ hours
@@ItsekulGaming or find GF in MMORPG so you can play together lmao
@Nobody Important I'm struggling to maintain balance of time between school work and Warframe
9:56 this is a reocurring theme in Warframe: devs miscalculate time or resource costs for a new system / new playmode, then later nerf the costs in an update while the forums are filled with seething early adopters who feel cheated. I encountered this when Arcanes in Plains of Eidolon had crafting costs, which were fish parts gathered from fishing. I took one resource boost weekend to farm hundreds of fish to be able to craft all the Arcanes I would ever want. Months later the resource costs were removed. Now there is a lot of fish in my inventory. Nowadays they tend to refund a portion of the resource investment when they changed the costs for Railjack for example.
Oh god. You reminded me the fishing and how annoying it was just to catch a few needed. At the right spot, at the right time. Still not spawning pool. AAARRRGH!
@@georgiynikitenko7600 heh ye
Sometimes I think this is actually an intentional move on DE's part... if they make new things too easy, the veterans will complain. So they make them hard and time-consuming (getting your Railjack), and then when the veterans have ground them out, they reduce the difficulty to make the content more accessible.
same kind of thing happens with Borderlands. Just buy Borderlands 1 or 2 or 3 two years after its release date and you'll get a great game at a great price.
@@905JimRaynor lol yeah. i've thought of getting bl3's dlc's for a while now, but i keep telling myself "why? they'll just release literally everything all at once for 30 bucks.
and lo and behold, the current sale on ps is both of the season's passes.
Your content never ceases to be one of the best regarding video game thesis and their development. Thank you very much for existing.
Sangre donó peso argentino 😭
"Suffering through the game is a right of passage."
God I hate this mentality, especially when the Developers make some sort of agonizing quest easier or less tedious and then the people that did it already feel like they got cheated or something.
I know, it's a video game. People take it so seriously, like it's some sort of trial everyone has to do....no I just wanna mess with digital toys.
Digital toys?
@@hehitmeinthekneegur1551 Yeah, play things. For fun.
Warframe's main issue is that Digital Extremes have for the past few years, mostly relied on the playerbase itself to guide new players and get them to the good bits of the game early, I cannot even begin to describe how stupid that is. Really hope your videos on the game get them to do something to make the early experience better.
It used to actually have a intelligible "quest" path that easilly got you to the endgame or far enough that you can figure it out for yourself easy enough.
Yep if it wasn't for the wiki/forums/reddit i would be 100% lost a couple hours in and would of given up. A game shouldn't need outside resources to be played and enjoyed.
It rewards curiosity basically if u want to know how to play, you'll get it done
@@nocluewhatiam1189 so you have to already know how to play...but the game is not very good at telling you how do go about any of that other than the basic tutorials.
@@ShiningDarknes true but I had to find out and I know not everyone has that so I see warframe is targeting power players and mad grinders
oof. yea warframe is fun game play, and the story is really interesting after second dream, war within, the sacrifice, but its always a stretch to tell some one to choke down parts they don't like so it gets good. it could definately use some streamlining early on in terms of directing you and giving you lore connections. also some of the rails require wacky shit to open that mystify new people. that isn't good.
but everything else is shit, whole grinding and building up your warframe sucks especially if you're free to play
@@kyotheman69 RNG mechanics are too heavily implemented, and it's not the only game or the worst game that uses RNG for basically everything (that would be Fallout 76, where EVERYTHING is RNG.)
The problem i have with warframe, which is why i stopped playing, is the slow progress, and trying to grind for materials. It is taking so much time, maybe the game picks up later, the more stuff you have? but just getting one weapon took hours or even days or even weeks to grind, and then on top of that we have the waiting system... like waiting for stuff to finish for like 8-48 hours for something to finish, instead of waiting a couple of minutes, and this system made me feel like i have to wait a long time, until i can try the new weapon i crafted..
@@kyotheman69 yeah some of the grind can be unreasonable. especially when you do consider the 1 hour that a lot of people have.
I was able to make the grind bearable purely because I had more time, I dont like the fact that there's a very real possibility that someone spends that entire hour in trade chat trying to scrape together the plat to save time, or make the game more enjoyable.
I played for a very long time, and for all intents and purposes was f2p(slight exception for a tennogen skin). The best fun I had in the game was either fucking around with friends, or when I had concrete goals. I can remember having endless fun spending hours challenging the obstacle course just to beat my friends. that wasn't me enjoyting the I can remember having endless fun spending hours challenging the obstacle course just to beat my friends. When you have goals the game can be a blast, but the moment i achieved my concrete goals... it lost all the fun of it
@@DemiCape EXACTLY. the reason I dropped Warframe and never went back
6:11
Playing this every time someone tells me to watch ONE PIECE
About halfway through this video I started to feel like you were rambling and could've condensed it, and then it finally dawned on me at the end that you are actually just a genius. Well done.
It’a good but as soon as I realised I was impressed at first then started to get annoyed every time it happened I laughed to but it’s started just seriously irritating me haha
AOC should run for president.
@@tommytherunner or you just don’t understand the simple fact that whatever game, if the early game is bad, Is flawed game design, as a college student I don’t have even 10 hours a week to play, having to balance life and work and studies and social stuff. His points are accurate, early game needs to catch you and show you what the game is all about with well explained mechanics.
Just because “most” mmorpg’s take a while to get good and interesting it doesn’t mean it’s a core mechanic that it should stay. Most players will quit if the early game is bad
There's no shot DT beats Bernie in a slap fight.
@@tommytherunner MMORPGs have been dying out as a genre for the past few years for a reason. It's hilarious how people still don't understand why.
The biggest problem I have with warframe is that most of the game modes available early on (save for survival (but that's just killing stuff)) are repetitive, boring, and outdated, but the main questline is SUCH A BANGER. The problem is that DE did not put anything in to give you knowledge on how to get to the good lore-driven quests (ex. the second dream) or really any clear sense of direction on how to progress.
The problem isnt DE not giving you knowledge about the only 4 good quests in the game. The problem is that only the last quests are good, the beginning and middle quests are simple worst in every way, they dont even have custom missions and DE dont give a shit about it, they dont wanna rework the early and mid game
@@erichdegurechaff9515 That's without mentioning all the story missing in-between. Like, imagine reaching Neptune/Uranus and the boss starts talking about some tube-men you killed and a year later you read on Reddit that there was a story quest removed from the game where you killed his experimental clones.
one of the biggest problems in many mmos is the lack of guides inside the game,if a experienced player starts a new account,in 20 hours he can be doing the second dream,the great game changer of warframe. That shows how complex the mod system,the resourses and the important nodes are,and is extremely necessary for the game to show us a way to do it,and it is very eazy,just have the ordis explaning the mods,and say "operator,you will need this knowlege to reach our maximum capabilites'
Also there are game breaking bugs still in those quests that cause you to have to restart these long drawn out sequences.
my biggest issue with warframe is the studio creates false scarcity on prime suits you know a end game item with stat boosts over base frame of that one and vault it to turn around and be justified to throw it into cashshop for 100$ later one so you couldnt get that end game prime that might be your main for a year when i started playing yeaaars ago nova was vaulted i ended up paying plat to another player while it was vaulted for a inflated price to get nova 2 months later it was being sold for 100$ meaning no one had to farm for it lol it was scandelous and greedy and its why i quit knowing the studio randomly vaults primes soley for the purpose of reselling it later on in a 100$ package for one prime 2 skins lol
My experience with warframe was backwards it was really good at the begining when I was learning to use the different weapons and warframes but then it became gradually tedious as I gained experience, then one day I realized that I didn´t enjoyed the game anymore, that the endless grinding and the repetitive missions were a pain in the ass to do so I quitted and kept the good memories instead of burning myself in a game that wasn't fun anymore.
This is what happened to me. The missions and constant grind began feeling like chores. I did leave, for like a year. Then tried to reignite the fire when something new released (not sure what... I think Fortuna). Least to say that didnt work and now I despise the game even more. And the fact that so much crap happened with the dev team and releases after that just.... no.
This is definitely true as well, it became a chore rather than a game anymore. What I did to make myself enjoy and kept the thoughts of it being a chore is by staying away from all of those so-called "meta elitist" telling you to do or not do that.
Mastery L1 here and i share your exp. Hope this new war update bring something different. I really dont want another POE, Orb Vallis and Deimos. No more open world.
It took me over 2k hours to realize, the last time they improved the core gameplay loop was 5 years ago by redesigning parkour mechanics (bullet jump). Of course we hated it in the beginning, no longer being able to copter through a mission in seconds. But eventually we saw the improvement.
Last year i realized i no longer enjoyed playing WF. And then it dawned on me: i stopped recommending the game a few years ago. WF does not get better after 100 hours, it gets crappy after 1000 hours.
Warframe is fun but confusing for about the first 100 hours, then a lot of fun once you understand the systems and can explore, try the different styles of weapons, finish the story content, try the different frames and get a few pets.
Then it becomes a frustrating grind to get enough resources just to build the last few weapons, level mods, farm primes and forma frames. It managed to stay fun for me for longer because I had friends to grind with. But eventually even playing with friends became tedious, because we were just doing the same things - grinding for primes, grinding for credits to level mods, grinding for a few rare mods we didn't have. Just doing the same 3 missions again and again. I gave up eventually.
You stop feeling like a cool space ninja. You start to feel like its a second job just to level.
A great game should keep you entertained for 100 hours, not require 100 hours to start entertaining you.
"Effort Justification" is a psychological construct that comes to mind in this context.
Realizing they wasted 100 hours on a mediocre game will lead people to experience cognitive dissonance and thus justify their invested time and effort in hindsight by saying "but it was worth it".
Pov you spend 5 hours on the same beatsaber map trying to S+ it even though it’s not even that good
at least warframe isnt mediocre
Might be a bit of the sunk cost fallacy as well.. "I've already spent this much time/money on this game.. I have to keep going and make the best of it because all of that will have been wasted if I quit!" just a thought!
In the vast majority of cases I'd argue that it isn't that, but that after 100 hours they've finally adapted to the game's systems and learnt how to actually play the game not just bash their head against the wall trying to play like they want to, AND found a playstyle groove that they fit within and honestly enjoy, and for most of their friends, it was the same.
Kind of what your dad thinks of your mom viktor.
In 100 hours you can complete THE ENTIRE Mass Effect trilogy doing most side missions.
People that try to defend MMOs like that should let this sink in.
You can complete all of FF9, FFX and FFX-2 in less time. Including all optional side quests....
Full 100% completion, including + modes (which require you to have completed the game already....)
I don't support how, specifically, Warframe handles some things, but for MMOs just in general you can't really fully compare them to normal games. They're entirely different. They're catering to different gamers and have different goals in mind. Those games mentioned here (Mass Effect, Final Fantasy, etc) are meant to be finished within a certain amount of time for a single purchase because they're mostly complete. They're designed to take you through a journey in a reasonable length of time without introducing any overcomplicated mechanics. If they made one game last forever or more complex or convoluted mechanically then they wouldn't be able to sell you the next game made by them.
MMOs are designed to basically be a virtual home where people can role play in for long periods of time in an ever-evolving story and a large emphasis on grinding and choice with many more features. To support that kind of game it typically requires a subscription and to warrant a subscription it usually means a slower trickle towards the end or just many activities to do beyond the story or end game with constant updates. They want players to feel like they're always making progress towards something or always unlocking new things and new things are always being added. You wouldn't want players completing all tasks in a week or have no side activities. That would kill an MMORPG. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean the journey needs to be boring, but being longer or slower only makes sense because if someone only subscribes for a single month then that's not paying all the employees that are still working on future content, bug and balance fixes, server upkeep, etc.
They're different. Apples to oranges. Final Fantasy is great. I've played them all, the single player and the MMOs, but Cloud, Squall, Zidane, and Tidus didn't get the choice to become a dozen different crafters with their own storylines, a dozen plus different battle classes with their own job quests to follow as well, get the chance to take part in rebuilding a city by literally crafting the pieces to it with hundreds of others players, have nearly half a dozen expansions worth of story content added, or enter dungeons and raids with unique battle mechanics that requires a mastery of your abilities and team communication. All these things and more takes time for an MMO to introduce to the player and therefore the will feel like a giant tutorial for awhile.
MMOs aren't for everybody and that's fine. They don't have to be exactly the same or cater to everyone. But I certainly do agree with Josh that they can make them more fun and fulfilling earlier on. I can't speak for every MMO, but at least FF14 is actively working on expediting and simplifying the new player experience, even to the point where the entire first part can be played solo like a traditional Final Fantasy experience and with massive boosts to exp, loot rewards, and reworking early dungeons to be less frustrating.
TL;DR I went on a nerd rant. Feel free to ignore.
I just get flashbacks to Andromeda whenever anyone mentions mass effect now...
@@OrphanHart you needed more time
I'm pretty sure I completed the entire trilogy while doing every sidequest in under 90 hours. Side quests that actually take time became rarer and rarer as the trilogy went on.
"It gets better after 100 hours."
Paradox gamers: *Pathetic*
😂
For Paradox, it's _"It gets better after 100 mods."_
@ exactly
„You‘ll understand the game‘s mechanics after 100 hours“
@@18nakedcowboysintheshowers69 "I'm 100 hours in to this Paradox game, and I just noticed a mechanic I didn't know was in play!"
I feel this SO MUCH about games but also shows, and generally story. "It gets good after 10 episodes", "it gets good after 20 chapters", time is precious. Don't waste a hundred hours of it to somewhat start to have fun. Get the fun now. There is too many games to play to waste a hundred hours. Heck, you can even put easily 20 differents games of 5 hours each in it, and feel a whole better than by waiting for a game to "get good"
I’m my experience, Warframe’s devs fail to target both veterans and new players. They keep adding in “veteran content”, and then simplifying it (by lowering its flexibility) and lowering the entry requirements for “new” players. However, at this point there are so many of these that it would be impossible for new players to learn in a short time. This means all of the systems are dogpiled in the mr3 to 5 area rather than spread out between mr1 to 15. New players who just joined don’t get to experience any of it because they either quit at mr1 to 3 or are so overwhelmed by the new systems they decide to just ignore most of it. On the other hand, the veterans don’t get the level of flexibility and freedom they want out of an “endgame” system because the devs want to make the system accessible to early game players, who can’t really use it anyways.
What "veterans"? In this game everything is so easy that you can play with one hand , and I did, I made macro for slide and attack and put cunning drift mod and others ... I killed whole map with one button
@@Hangman1 "Veterans" in waframe are people who already have grinded everything of interest and have nothing to keep them playing anymore. It's not about the skill, in fact, warframe takes less skill the further you go in gametime. Optimal playstyle in this game is AFKing with AOE abilities after all.
@@blindeyedblightmain3565 in that case I'm VETERAN 🤣
@@Hangman1 my condolences to you, then. Because it is the moment when Warframe becomes a chore.
@@blindeyedblightmain3565 Yeah, that why I don't play it from some time, they got nothing to offer as a game and DE only reshuffle from time to time stats and perk cards to change meta ( lazy development - recycling old junk )
No Josh, Yareli doesn't get any better. I'm sorry.
Have you tried playing her for 100 hours? If soo try 1000 it gets better I promise
She's not that bad of frame when look from actual compared if you use her kit. This not ignoring the obvious damage reduction and trying out all possiblities instead helmithing the k drive immediately because aqua blades is the better target for better cc or damage
She’ll get better in a few years when DE finally remembers to fix her
You can use her aqua blades while banished by limbo, to afk...
...for now
@@deemojop266 Dude this is warframe any warframe can just use adaptation and an aoe weapon to do exactly what she does but better and 4 extra skills to use on top of that (this also goes for older frames, just use whatever you like, I don't care lol)
Warframe doesnt really “get good after 100h”, that’s a bit disingenuous. You do unlock more interesting areas, missions and systems, along with great story reveals, but the core gameplay loop remains the same, which is killing shit fast like a space ninja, and unlocking new warframes and weapons.
Not necessarily a bad thing :3
He already addressed warframe's problem. It's not that the gameplay gets better, that stays consistent. It's the story and the player's investment in it that suffers from it. Digital Extremes either needs to make the early game more narratively interesting or they need to cut down on the grind that is required to get there.
@@CaptainFordoAlpha-77 Thats the thing, the grind didn't use to be as bad, certainly there was grind but junction boxes were the worst thing they could have added for instance, those things are just stupid. and I thought they were stupi, it made me happy that because I played the game before they added them I never hade to actually do them.
I was thinking the same throughout the whole video. This man is absolutely on point with every assessment he makes on the good after 100h thing. I just don't think that applies to Warframe. Don't get me wrong, wf has LOTS to improve on. No, really, a lot. But other than unlocking stuff that does give you more flexibility, interesting areas and story, the gameplay doesn't change much since day 1. It's a unique shooter and it doesn't take 100h for the game to "get good". It does take that and beyond if you want to unlock absolutely everything (by playing) and that's fine. It's a free and therefore grindy game that needs improving in several areas (explaining stuff to players is a huge one), but it doesn't take 100h to be good.
I agree but isn't that the same with most games, people get upset because "its the same missions over and over again just with higher level enemies" but whenever something is added thats not the same mission everyone says it sucks it's "not warframe" (archwing, railjack, conclave) so what is it we want deep down the same or different 🤔. Also so much is expected of DE but warframe can be played 100% free (just takes time) not many games can do that, with the price tag of free with the updates having a price tag of free I'd say even 10 hours of game play is plenty on DE
This video gets better after 14min and 56seconds..trust me...
joking aside, i hate when people use this as an excuse. this video is 100% accurate from the first second.
On the contrary, there's an MMO which introduces itself really good and feels fun after playing for 2 hours, only to realize that it's a grind fest after playing for more than that time period. *glares at Black Desert Online*
BDO was made by a Korean Developer, as you know Asian game developers that makes MMORPG's love the grindy stuff because that what we asian like in our games getting the 0.1% chance to get that super rare item in the server all to yourself instead of everyone having the same sht and it gets boring because everyone has the same sht no concept of identity or even bragging rights to boot, Asian game developers hardly make servers for western regions because western casual players quit in 2 hours if they realize that it's too much of a pain to grind and there' s no easy pay to win access to the good stuff, and just leaves the game and makes the point of making a western server pointless at all and a big waste of revenue when they could just release the base game in ASIA or SEA and have peopel play it for hundreds of hours and grind thru that stuff and release cosmetics as a way to make money instead of pay to win sht, i play both BDO and warframe and have thousands of hours in warframe and hundreds in BDO the grind is what most of us asian playersl ike and that's the main reason western players don't get global releases of certain Asian developer made games cause all they do is complain when it's too grindy etc. but at the same time no one will tell you to grind for that long anyways it's a grind system you get like thru RNG
It goes to show that this game can make great mechanics but not a great system to keep people playing. The people who do sink into it, both their time and money, fall hard. There's a reason there are videos of guys admitting paying tens of thousands of dollars a month by choice.
@@Mezha07 if Asians like grind for months for get the "chance" of get something,fail,and do it again go ahead, but you aren't playing, you are working. Keep the trash of casino called bdo for Koreans.
I‘m glad I quit that after 20 minutes
@@Altair123 who ever said that it wasn't fun doing it the ups and lows in the mmos we play is our dopamine which is better than doing drugs kekw you call it a job we call it oue relief it may feel like a job to you but it's a 2nd life for us that's why western players will always fail tlin comparison to asian players because you percieve videogames like bdo as a job when we're judt playing it normally and enjoying the ups and lows of the loot system and the story
This is why tf2 has been so popular for so long. Even after being abandoned by the developers. In the first 5 minutes of game, you see a goofy cartoon game where everything is chaotic, where nobody seems to care about the objectives of the game and just do random things for fun. After 1200 hours, I'm still having fun doing that.
I played this game for about 2,000 hours, and left, because I wanted to finally do the objective, but casual does not like tryharders :(
luckily for me, I found out about the existence of TF2 Classic, and could finally get a feel for how this game was supposed to be played.
@@unnamedplayer6361 Turns out-- people who JUST joined a match don't want you to cap the intel! Weird, right?
@@advertisingadrian they can play next, that's a dumb excuse
@@unnamedplayer6361 People dont want to have and set up their sentry nest, or go through another long loading screen. You could also just not cap.
@@advertisingadrian even if this game had a working competitive mode, it still makes me sad to think that people don't even try to complete the tasks of the map, it's just a deadmatch without any sense, and even worse when people don't even shoot.
You probably think I'm boring, but I can understand when not to shoot someone and get something cool, but it doesn't have to be all the time.
I'm not sure how applicable this is to MMO's but, from my own experience, having dabbled in game design a bit: you have a budget of around **20 minutes** to grab the player's attention, give them a motivation to play, and familiarize them with the basic controls & mechanics.
Some games do this really well -- the first Dark Souls and Celeste, as examples. The game that did it best, from what I've played, is still Super Metroid. Within its first ~20min, the player has watched the intro cutscene, has gone through the invisible "controls tutorial" and "exploration tutorial" on Ceres and the surface/destroyed Tourian, respectively, and has defeat the game's first "real" boss (Torizo).
This "20 minute rule" is by no means a _law_ in game design, but it is a philosophy that I wholeheartedly agree with.
Nothing comes close to the first minutes of Metal Gear Rising. As soon as Rules of Nature kicks in, you know the game is gonna be awesome.
Yeah, I dont understand this 100 hours problem, if you don't have fun the first hour then why waste 99 more for it to get good. It not on the players to enjoy a game, it on the game to let the player enjoy it, why the heck would you lock the best bit after 100 hours of playing is a design choice I would never understand. The best bit is most game designers wouldn't do it anyway. Even the greedy ones who want to grab people attention in the first 30 minutes so they start pouring money into the game, not 1, not 2 or even 3 hours later, let alone 100. Not to mention most store let you refund a game within a time limit, so all the more reason to avoid that problem.
Metal gear rising V have my favorite intro, loved the character design but i was too noob to do the missions and get stuff, droped a freaking legendary game because im dumb
It was an important concept that was part of education for game design. Hell, it is a common concept on software engineering.
"If it takes more than 20 minutes to figure out, people won't stick with it.)
@@lued123 still sing along to that shit on my like eighth playthrough
So true. Most of the times a game "gets good after 100 or 50 hours" it's not cause the game changed or got better, it's you the player that changed your perspective to drain down better all the crap. That's not enjoying a product, that's Stoccolma Syndrome!
If you want your friend to enjoy warframe you have to go through the early game with them(not much fun to be had for your friend, if you just kill everything). Explain them systems piece by piece, don't confuse them too much too quickly. Most importantly: relax and have fun, talk about stuff, any game is more enjoyable this way and warframe is not an exception.
There's two legitimate reasons why MMO players could be angry that someone boosted to high level, and that is if there are game mechanics that you must really *master* before you reach end-game in order to be able to perform adequately. This is a very narrow problem, but it could exist. Secondly, if people pay extra to get to the end of the game, it encourages multiple poor development and monetization practices by the company.
The first one is a legitimate reason to be upset at the player since it will impact the enjoyment of others, but your second reason is his exact point - there's a problem and rather than fixing it, the companies would rather just sell you a solution (the boost). Rather than being mad at the player in the second instance, both the new and existing players should be mad at the company for what they're doing and that's the entire point he's making.
@@Dreznin The unfortunate truth of the second reason is that when people pay a company to skip that part; they will keep that part in *because* people will pay to skip it, and carry on playing. I get mad at people who pay to skip trash moments in the grind since companies only speak one language: Money. If you give them money for anything, you tell them to "Keep doing this, I will pay anyways" If you instead grind through it without giving a penny and constantly complain; they will feel the loss of money and make changes (Even though that isn't a good way to experience, so the real good way to do that is to just stop playing, and play something else). It doesn't even need that many people to pay to skip for it to already be profitable for a company, so players need to not encourage negative behavior by companies. I think both reasons are valid for being mad at other players, and the companies alike.
@@Dreznin I think there is a subtle difference to what he was saying. We both agree that they are skipping a bad experience, but the reason the hardcore gamer is angry is different in my argument than in his. In my argument, I am saying that the hardcore gamer is angry because the company doesn't feel like it needs to fix anything, and is actually motivated to make the game worse, in order to get people to pay to skip it. To me this is clearly different than the hardcore gamer being angry because a casual gamer didn't have to suffer through the early game like the hardcore one did.
If a game has a way to achieve endgame content/level through payment just dont fucking play that game because thats a pay2win and getting mad at that point is dumb
There is a good reason why boosts should not exist cause they are detrimental to an mmo, which is bots. This is quite a common problem in wow, where you would have people buying a boost then immediately going to farm gold, end game materials which they then sell for real money, inflating the economy such that a normal player can't afford anything. Although both the game and the boost are expensive, they still manage to make a profit in the time it takes for them to get banned. Bots are a big problem even with a considerable time-gate, adding a boost just make it way worse.
'It gets good after 100 hours' = 'Wait till you're too brain-dead to realise that you're bored.'
As true as all this is, it also comes down to evolving playstyles due to hours invested and muscle memory developed unlocking different playstyles.
For example, in a lot of these Warframe clips you're stood there static using a bow. While we all started like this, and while this is a perfectly viable way to play the game, it's also only how most newer/lazy players play, and it's missing a huge amount of the fun %. When you've developed the muscle memory to be non-stop using 'movement tech-ing' to effectively 'fly' around tilesets to the point you'll wall stall just for one instant flickshot kill and you're rarely touching the ground, the game changes completely and becomes A LOT more fun.
This is the kind of thing that needs AT LEAST 100 hours of playtime just because you need the time to develop the muscle memory to actually be able to put this constant chain of movement into practice and I think this is a HUGE part of why players say you need to invest 100 hours even if people struggle to articulate this point.
It's not just because of the content changing, but because you develop the muscle memory to pull off things that a player with 20 hours looks at and thinks "Bro why is this person sweating so hard in a defence mission" when the reality is, you're not sweating, you're just playing the game with multiple hours of muscle memory development that they're yet to experience.
You can give a new player a Volt with 400% ability strength, and me the slowest moving frame in the game, and I'll still beat them to the objective just based on my ability to navigate missions that they just don't have the skillset for as of yet.
@@mortisquelaana *coughleagueoflegendscough*
yes and to do any part of that you have to have op as fuck gear that you can only get from grinding super hard
@@thecoolestofthe834s2 Not true even in the slightest
I've finished the desert bus route 7 times straight, and then it became really really good. Would advise everybody to take the time and do it. It will be worth your time.
I did it 17 times
Rhat part when the bus is turning slightly to the right and you have to fix it otherwise you lose XD epic gameplay overthere
For warframe, it is good, for the first little bit. Then it just drops you with no direction after the tutorial, then you get to find your own way until you stumble upon story
if im being honest my first time playing warframe was easy i just did research about the game before i played it its not like there is no information on the game
@@onmyeverything23 i mean i did look stuff up, but i tend to go down rabbit holes. Finding cool weapons mostly led to late game quests or doing kuva liches.
@@icyphoenix2401 understandable
@@onmyeverything23 yes, this is basically the only way for a new player to get into warframe. That's the problem lol, a game should be self contained and explain how to play it to the player. They shouldn't need to do research to enjoy the game.
@@LegDayLas I mean most games people will look up "top 10 characters in so and so game" or "tier list in so and so game". Your point still stands where Warframe does make you have to look up how it works compared to looking up peoples opinions/facts about characters/systems in how good they are
What I've found with warframe (and basically every mmorpg) is that it's 5 times more fun early game when veterans are there to carry and/or explain complicated features to you
It's kind of a shame that this is the case. I have 400 hours in WF and I don't think I would have but an eighth of that in if I didn't have a higher level friend who would explain the various systems of the game. If it wasn't for the core gameplay loop being fun (cool movement, fun guns and even more fun melee weapons) I would have barely got 5 hours before I called it quits. Hell, even after 400 hours, I still don't think I fully understand the mod system. I get the individual parts, but how they interact is still something I have to parse out.
I actually found warframe fun when I started because I was carrying my almost as noobish friends. Like, I'd push ahead to the next planet first specifically so that I could then help my mates there.
The bits where I *had* to engage with veterans to progress were where I disliked it. I guess I'm just too proud to get help. Spectres of the Rail launch was such an awful time to start playing, since it was literally impossible to progress past Mercury without a taxi.
I would like to do that with my friends and help them find a good game to play with someone that can help them understand, but the thing is, they wouldn’t like being carried but instead to be on an even playing ground, so I might try to get one of my friends to at least enjoy the game with me, knowing that I can help them if they don’t understand a mechanic in the game (“cough cough” mods “cough cough”)
i dunno,i played the game years ago, and when i started there was no tutorial,but even them i still got a lot of fun,and at that time my internet was crap so i played a lot alone.i am from the time that there was a stamina bar and the arcane helmets.i tend to get nostalgic more about my noob days than now that i am a veteran.
So what you're saying is the early game experience is garbage then? Nice. I'll evade Warframe since it won't respect my time.
I think the issue with warframe, or why it takes a while for it to "get good" is because it has a lot of things you have to unlock, mods to upgrade, warframes/weapons to rank up etc before you can make personal and effective builds. For example, if you had ways of regenerating energy and 75% efficiency from the start, it'd probably be way more fun for new players since they can run around and spam abilities instead of only using the weapons because they only get the occasional 25 energy from orbs.
“The game isn’t a job” Seriously give this man a metal he hit it right on the damn head every game is a job or chore with there gameplay mechanics
It's medal, technically it's made out of metal though
@@thatbachus lol I didn’t even notice whoops yet you got a point
Tis why I stopped playing WoW. It got to a point where it required as much sacrifice as my job, marriage, or kids. Unfortunately, it’s just not worth that level of commitment anymore.
this is literally why New World died, the grind was a fucking a job. People were spending 5 hours a day straight farming nodes, so they could farm higher level nodes, so they can make gear to farm nodes more efficiently, so they could get more out spending 5 hours a day farming nodes... and it goes on
@@LightningNotes plus a bunch of glitches and bugs that make the game unfair to others if you use them, as well as the place for reporting bugs being public, meaning you could wait for a game breaking bug to be reported and be able to use it before it's patched
"It gets better 100 hours in" isn't a Warframe problem, or a FFXIV problem. It's a format-wide plague. "It gets better 100 hours in" is the _MMO mantra_ ever since the beginning, and exactly what holds the whole format* back... It's the primary reason why arena games beat out virtual worlds despite all the infinite potential of the latter.
*(MMO isn't a genre, it's just a format like singleplayer or split-screen co-op or LAN multiplayer. It gets called a genre so much that I end up using the term too, but it's still wrong.)
I mean with FFXIV - at least the first parts are still enjoyable. The first 100 hours is fun and interesting, and the story just keeps getting bigger with more to do. Get sick of one job/class - swap to another, and now you have even more story and things to do, not to mention the fun/enjoyment of 'early game content' when you haven't been there in so long.
FFS Warframe is not an MMO
@@xXKisskerXx That is highly debatable. I'm the biggest FFXIV fanboy around and even I didn't enjoy ARR. It's a very simple, standard story that's extremely straightforward, contains a lot of filler, and generally isn't very good.
I didn't start really enjoying the story until Heavensward. The later patch quests from ARR were alright too.
I personally think this is also a community problem, tho to be fair it could also just be a vocal minority.
Every MMO player nowadays feels like "Just rush to the endgame as fast as possible so you can raid"
While I agree that there needs to be a good endgame, personally I find it sad how many people dont even care what goes on on the way there.
people just try to optimize their own game so much, that they eventually optimize the fun out of their game, especially the early game-
@@ryno4ever433 ARR questline was trimmed down so technically it is now fun in its 100 hrs lol probably even less.
His hair is always so funny to me. He always looks like he just got out of bed after getting blackout drunk the night before.
and still being handsome, who made this man
@@ivailoivanov01 don’t forget well dressed
Don't worry, it gets better 100 hours in.
That is why he always got a cup of coffee on videos. He did just woke up after a drunk night.
they don't call him Josh "Strife" Hayes for nothing
The problem with warframe is that this moniker applies, but not in the "you'll start having fun after being here a while" way, but in the "the full game is fun, but it takes 100 hours to unlock" way.
Having full control of the operator is a big part of the fun imo, and you have to finish 40+ hours of story to get there. And that's by rushing the story, not doing full completion of things along the way.
Yahtzee made the perfect analogy for this on his review of FF13 on its awful 20 hours in before it gets good:
"Put your hand over the oven for 20 hours and yeah you might stop feeling the pain but you will had done damage to yourself"
XIII is even worse as a example, at least mmo's have hundreds of potential hours after the initial slog, XIII was almost over.
John Romero touches on the new player experience well in his "Dev plays" series where he replayed Doom and provided commentary.
He spoke about how the first Doom level was the last level they finished, because by then they had learned as much as they could in order to deliver the best possible experience based on the lessons learnt in designing the game along the way, with the initial experience being the most critical.
That made the middle levels the weakest in map design and gameplay flow overall. But given the player got to experience the best possible start to the game they could forgive, whether consciously or not, the weaker middle parts of Doom by riding on that positive high. That still leaves the ending to also be as strong as the start, which is a challenge of its own admittedly.
He also got to experience that new player experience himself when he played Dark Forces for the first time, where Lucas Arts had also employed the same tactic of finishing the first level when they had finished iterating their FPS mechanics; famously ringing one of Lucas Arts' game designers and stating "Now I know how people felt playing Doom for the first time".
20-60-20 Start, Middle, End. The formula of books. The start must be the best, the middle part will naturally be the longest and most boring. The ending should be a spike in quality as well. But the start should always be the best. Video Games are old enough to genuinely be compared to Books, and I love it.
There are too many books out there to say, "It gets good in the last 10%."
There are too many games out there to say, "It gets good after so much time."
XD Old games compete with new, and new games compete with old.
That's really interesting, thanks for sharing.
I've never seen or heard of this man before, but he seems awfully polarized by warframe and I'm very ok with that and watching the ensuing videos
He's a great dude. Worth subscribing.
@@1LuvMLPFiM Shame about the dry face though.
I have 1000 hours in Warframe and I'm still awfully polarized by it
wait till you see his NINJAS IN SPACE review score.
I played Warframe throughout Highschool, probably got around 500-600 hours, put it down and didn't touch it for like, 3 or 4 years, came back and only played about 45 minutes before getting bored and confused
Your channel has made me hold game developers to a higher standard. Keep it up mate
The problem with the new player experience I think lies with them letting new players enter all these new areas early on, before they can even handle it.
Some people hate things like railjack being mastery locked, but I think its better to keep newer players focused on learning the main game before seeing shiny spaceship.
Exactly
indeed. they did a lot to make it better though. still things to work on in the future
Absolutely not.
Most players that will enjoy warframe will be good enough for the gameplay itself. The game slugs in terms of systems and progression rate, not gameplay.
Problem is that early or mid game maps are just empty of players so you can play a "co-op mmo" for hours being alone occasionally seeing a veteran nuke the whole map in 60 seconds and during all this time majority of the player base is doing the new high level content that you cant access before doing all the previous quests
This man is spitting facts, as a new player i think I spent more time on RUclips learning than actually playing.
Unfortunately warframe doesn't have better tutorials for everything at the start but at least RUclips or a experienced player will help
Its my bdo experience
@@sexilatinoboi69 I don't think it's exclusive to Warframe. I have played lot of MMOs, and for every one of them, I started by going to the forums, and looking up youtube videos. But, in defense of Warframe, the MMO I stuck to, I can say it is not exactly needed. Most MMO follows a rigid class leveling system, the DnD style. Which is immutable (unless there is a respec option, which is often locked behind a paywall). So, it makes sense to try and find out as much as you can about some cookie cutter build. In Warframe, however, it's all about respecing. From forma to modding. It doesn't punish experimentation, it encourages it.
@@diptarkadas5193 bruh come on the game doesnt even do anything to introduce how mods work which is like the biggest essential part of gearing in the game. also it does very little to nothing to guide you to more content via the main story quests. like yea open exploration can be good but it can also be intimidating or boring. you have to give the players at least some kind of thread they can guide themselves with if they get lost. I have over 1k hours in Warframe and i fucking love it but i would never recommend a friend playing it by themself ever. at least not without my help or video guides.
@@AndrewWilson-fb8ge this is 100% true, first time i quit right after i started. Second time i got thrown into game with friends and never stopped. But damn does it feel great when you figure it all out.
"So it's bad for 100 hours."
"... um... I said it gets good after 100 hours."
"So it's bad for 100 hours."
"... um..."
I think generally veterans in a game have accepted and adapted to the game and the mechanics that would rub a new player the wrong way (be it because they are sub optimal or outdated ecc...).
There is a reason why vets help new pelps in recruit and region chat
I take Generally 40 hours Just to finish The initial part of a game, almost any game I like I spend more then 300 hours in it
@@dankmemes8254 As a vet, that's what I do when am done farming stuffs.
@@warmpereer65 I a a vet myself hell i call them warframe boomers and if they played for a long time or around pre second dream update
They're building the game around people who have completed the games systems. The reason they made deimos was for the people who finished grinding fortuna, the reason they made fortuna was for people who finished grinding cetus. They're not focusing time into helping out a new player in the first 2 hours because why focus on 2 hours when it takes around 50 to max your standing.
Warframe
Early game bad
Mid game good
End game bad
Yes
Nah I'd say Early Game Good, Mid Game Great! And End Game Subjective.
they just need to fix the "road" from warframe start, until you unlock everything, them tell you "go and grind missions" so you play 5 or so hours of content, and give up xD
End game nonexistant.
The devs are smart. There is no endgame in Warframe - so it`s not bad :d
Re the boost point you make: The problem with boosts is that it gives the devs exactly a way to wriggle out of what they actually should do, which is to improve the early game. As soon as a game gets a boost the devs have no more reason to improve their game because they actually make money with their early game being shit
I think he's saying- get mad at the devs for making boosts, don't get mad at players for using them.
The problem with boosts is they incentivize devs to keep grinds you can pay to skip, yes.. And then you need to add: "and constantly add more rather than a meaningful endgame". Otherwise you're not grasping the full scope of the issue. Warframe is a great example of both things.
@@Chromodar Lets be honest here, WoW is the No. 1 example. The whole game is full of meaningless unfun "content".
I started this game 3-4 years ago and the intro to the game has changed a lot with better cinematic and a different cinematic where it doesn’t show lotus but a young girl looking at the 3 beginning frames
That's exactly what he said. It's a band aid on an issue that shouldn't exist in the first place. They could use their development money to actually make the game have better player retention, or they can milk the few who have gotten on the game to make it better. Obviously the first not only make the game objectively better but also increases player retention, it's literally a bad idea to make this the crux of your game as it screams "it only gets worse from here".
10:52 is the main issue with Warframe. I understand Railjack, necramech, and Helminth being that amount of grind to a degree. However, WITHOUT QUESTION: Second Dream, and War Within should be within 10-15 hrs into the start of game. These aren’t just class upgrades or new skills or new functionality, it’s THE OPERATOR, the coolest, most unique part of Warframe that unlocks every other really cool part of the game. AND… just having the operator eleviates so much of Warframes early game awkwardness and need for higher level mods.
The worst part is that there’s nothing those quests require of you past a basic understanding of the systems. The only reason it takes so long is cuz there tied to later game planets. Hey… just portal new players over to those planets for those missions, it even gives the added quality of foreshadowing those locations.
Not only does it take too long to get, it takes a long time if you know EXACTLY what your doing, if not, you can spend 1000s of hours and never get it or not understand why it’s important. There’s a lot of issues with WF, but this is it’s Cardinal Sin to me.
I've had to deal with this in Monster Hunter World, my friend has been raving about how enjoyable the game is... And you know what? When the game shuts up and ACTUALLY allows me to play, learning the mechanics organically through experience and experimentation he's right.
It's just a shame for the first god knows how many hours, this game is plagued with interruptions, pointless dialogue and a Story I could not care less about if I tried.
yeah its kinda sad they shoot themself in the foot for putting an incredibly boring intro to and amazing full of action and adventure game .
As a fan of the Monster Hunter franchise, i gotta agree, MH and Warframe are very complicated to get into, it's thanks to the community of those games that there are good amount of people trying them out. In my case i play MHW Iceborne regularly to explain and help new people to understand the systems and mechanics of the game.
@cpong I quit at the alatreon grind. I got into the game late and the amount of time needed farming to kill him drove me away.
@@atreyu979 I congratulate you to even getting to alatreon
ooooh, I wanna see him do the world video :D
I often encounter this when it comes to long running anime series as well... (it gets good after 50-100 episodes) and my answer is the same: Why should I bother with something I might like hundred(s) of hours in if I can watch/play something that's enjoyable from the get-go?
Tbf with Anime you dont have to grind out those episodes like levels, you can just watch a summary.
I can't think of a single anime that 'gets good after 100 hours'. Usually the first few episodes are slower and more about introducing people and personalities, or the unique setting of the world, and then it quickly picks up pace after that.
I mean, if we're talking about GOOD anime. These 500 episode mega anime is just visual shit for teenage kids to ingest. But if we're talking about something like Monster, or Kenshin that's a different story entirely.
Anime is not something that usually tip toes around the actual fun. You either like it after 3 hours or you don't. There's usually enough happening in the first 3-4 episodes to get you hooked. Video games are completely different, and so many of them start the game off slow because of progression, and it ruins it's player numbers by being boring and not hooking players in the first 2 or 3 hours.
People always say this shit about One Piece to get people into it and I’m like “no dumbass! It’s good in the first ten episodes, it’s just REALLY FUCKING GOOD 50-100-200-etc. episodes in.”
I've played several games where "it gets good after 100 hours", and honestly, the leveling to max level (or when I get bored) is *always* the bit that's the most fun.
Fast xp vs slow xp and boosts ? Fast is only useful if you are the type who levels multiple characters for "endgame" content.
Grind, level, level, grind. Yay, I'm finally max level I can relax now and well drat, bored now.
Levelling is legit the core of the RPG experience. Removing it with boosts or fast levelling guts a huge part of the gameplay and learning experience. Pay to quit faster is that putting a stick in your bike spokes meme then complaining about what you did to yourself.
I think it is a bit of a conflict for what MMORPGs are.
On one hand, you have the fun of leveling up characters, getting new skills, and gearing up. And generally speaking, you make decent experience, move through interesting areas, learn lore, and so on at a more decent rate while leveling. And without boosts, it isn't too fast, so you get time for things to sink in, to explore, and so on. Plus, if you're with other people that are interested in experiencing the content, you aren't blitzing through the content.
But on the other hand, you have the expression "The game begins at max_level". And there is validity to that, at least once the game has some levels. Once you are max level, you have access to all (or almost all) of the game and can work on gear that'll last you a long time. But there is another aspect as well. You're now the same level as most players. And that lets you team up with people and experience the MMO aspect. You can form a group and do the dungeon. But because the goal is now typically something a bit more grindy, there can be a focus on efficiency, on the speed of the run.
Some games try to address this by pairing up the max level players with the lower level ones, so the lower level ones can experience group focused dungeons that are not for the maxed levels. But that tends to lead to people who have run the dungeon so much they just want to get to the end for the daily reward combined with people that don't know the dungeon and/or are interested in exploring it, taking their time.
Anyway, I expect that's why a lot of people have their max level character(s), but then also alts, so they can experience both sides of it.
Except in Warframe, "after 100 hours" is not the same thing as "after levelling."
The reason the 100 hour mark is important is because everything new in the game since the last few years has mostly been added to the post-100 hour mark. Before 30 hours, you just don't get access to even 5% of the game. So to review an entire game, based on the first 2 hours, is nothing more than disingenuous. It's one thing to experience a game for the first time, and its a completely different thing to review it.
The best part of Blade and Soul for me was the leveling part with all the story and world building, and now they've gutted all of the side quests to rush people through to max level. They're not even optional. They're just straight-up removed. Loads of minor characters and stories you can never see now.
I like the leveling experience exactly once for each mmo. After that i have always hated leveling alts since redoing the leveling experience multiple times becomes a chore. Which is annoying because alot of mmos are designed around having alts including grinding.
The moment I saw bullet jumping, deflecting bullets with melee, and mid air glide shooting, I was absolutely hooked on the game and have absolutely loved every second since. That was within the first 15 minutes or so.
How about the moment you saw that there was no direction as for where to go after a certain point in the story? Were you still hooked? Because I'm sure most people weren't.
@@KaikiIsTaken yes, actually I was. I just went through the star chart as that seemed the obvious direction, and occasionally checked my quests and did those as I could. I personally just loved the freedom and that I could do whatever I wanted as much as I wanted. I started in 2018 and am still playing today.
@@KaikiIsTaken i really was because I have common sense and it wasn’t hard at all to hear “check your codex for a mission” and look around the menu for a codex and click on a quest that automatically shows you where you have to go for the mission to start.
And no I’m not trying to throw shade at you. But I had to basically hold my friends hands across the game because they wouldn’t use their heads for a second and gaming experience to progress to get what they wanted.
I've been going through ftp morphs, and after destiny 2 it was warframes turn, like destiny's combat more but not enough for me to dislike it, I kust want to know how to get _ appearances, and a check up to make sure I'm not doing a bunch of random stuff
"the majority of your player base will give up after two" that steam trophy means they give up BEFORE 2 hours, as 60% of players don't get the two hour played trophy. Minor gripe, sure, but I think it really drives home the point. As the average gamer, professional dad in my 30s, the games I do play have to hook me early to keep me going. The Average 1 hour a night might be misleading as I think most of us its a little more chaotic and one night you may have 4 or 5(say a weekend) and other nights no time to play at all. So when we get those moments, we want them to be worth the time.
It's connected to the earlier part, where he said that the average player gives a game 2 hours before he/she quits it or not. It is entirely not connected to the trophy bit and therefore confusing.
It certainly could've been worded better. I took it as meaning "the majority of your player base will give up in up to two hours," which doesn't quite flow as well. With the previous context, this comes off at worst as a slightly misspoken.
I think one hour at night is probably common for newborn fathers, and those who have toddlers. However, once the child reaches gaming age (depending on when you want to introduce them so lets age age 10) that time greatly expands. it can even be used as a bonding moment between parent and child.
@@everyonethinksyoureadeathm5773 bro, i dunno avout you but between work and chores and spending time with family, it has a lot less to do with the kid as it does with everything else.
I can safely say after well over 2000 hours in Warframe that it goes through many cycles of being boring to being fun to back to frustratingly boring and everything in between.
Yep, Warframe is more a relationship with good and bad times, more than a definitively good or bad game. I bloody love the game but my god can it be frustrating at times.
For me WF is much better as a "home base" game to come back to between playing all kinds of other games. It just keeps getting new stuff to do and I enjoy it, but definitely spend about 2/3rds of my gaming time elsewhere. Feels about right to me :)
@@SlabHardcheese hell yes brother u say it
@@SlabHardcheese Yeah, but how can you actually access the content that's being added if you play it like that? A lot of the content is locked before mr14. This only works for veterans.
@@mariosmatzoros3553 I think you are basically right. I definitely went through the dedicated WF period up front. That may be the nature of these deep content games. If you're getting burned out, that is when to take the break IMO. Just come back when you feel it and all that "new content" (if you can access it) will have the bugs worked out and the grind will typically be reduced for you. If you can't access it, then enjoy the content you have at your level and plan to be ready for the following year's tennocon reveals :)
Josh's point in the video really gets good 100 hours in.
Wow, this comment has a 100 likes. Never have the stars aligned so perfectly
This comment gets good 100 sentences in.
I enjoyed Warframe from the beginning. But I was unaware that it “Got good after 100 hours” because of this I didn’t push hard to the good bit and 300 hours into the game I was hit with the huge change and realized I was playing the tutorial the entire time. So I sunk another 900 hours into the game before it sucked out my soul and left me not wanting to play any games even remotely like it for about 2 years. I enjoyed the game, and would recommend it to anyone but wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if they didn’t like it themselves. I think it targets a very specific audience who of course will love it and be loyal to an extent. But then gives the finger to anyone who doesn’t fit in the specific audience. Especially since the specific audience vindicates them by singing their praises.
And this is why I silently weep, knowing I will not live long enough to finish all the JRPG’s I want to play because 100+ hours each…
This. It might sound silly but it genuinely saddens me that I'm not going to live long enough to play all the games I'd like to play.
I remember in City of Heroes, the first few hours were actually a lot of fun - and it stayed fun for a good long while. The travel powers kicked in a bit later, and then things were really off to the races, but it was always fun to roll up a new character and just run around the starting zones doing the basic missions.
So yes, saying it gets good 100 hours in is basically telling me to steer clear of the game.
City of Heroes/Villians I loved those games, it was my first foray into MMO's
I use to spend days on COH/COV at a time😍
After 100 hours you start falling into the sunk cost fallacy trap and the game instantly becomes good.
Ha, i watched the video from extra credits like 2 hours ago
fax tbh
I mean no.. thats when the story takes a major turn and you begin to get very invested in the world. Also its not 100 hours its much less and its only not fun when you have grinding in mind instead of playing casually
This argument also works in shows and anime
"oh but it gets good after 25 episodes!"
"Bruh the anime is 28 episodes long..."
Or seasons.
(Not directed at any specific show)
I love Warframe but I cant defend needing to play hours before the story starts. I guess learning everything about the cool world and design and mechanics is what made me fall in love. But I get why people wouldn't like that. I got hooked on the solid gameplay that got more in depth the better I got at the game, I stayed for all of the systems and the world.
Yo... ima like it because we have the same name xD
But you're absolutely right :v
Honestly I love leveling things up and aimless grind. It's relaxing in a sense. I can just throw on music and go do some missions to get some XP. Search for warframes to build, etc. But I know people who *have* to get immersed in a game to enjoy it.
I love Warframe but I'm pretty sure they made the gameplay before they even realized they needed a story
for real i ragequit the game because i coul;dnt figoure out to switch planets
100% this is a game that benefits from a veteran bringing a new player through the start. Not a good circumstance for solo-players in the least. But I have been enjoying the heck out of Warframe, but that's only with having access to another player's vast knowledge.
Exactly. There's a reason there are many clans dedicated to help new players, instead of playing what the devs think is appropriate for their skill and/or knowledge.
I taxid 2 of my friends then they became heavily influential with warframe fngs for Xbox. 1 has over 40 players helped on her own and she helped set up five clans. The other guy about the same level just not with clans. It surprised me a bit when people question why the community "gEtZ tOxIk" over the beginning getting reworked a 5th time it's because players already are the tutorial but solo play is definitely not the name of this game.
its a mmo, its meant to be played with other people.
@@lldavidll I think for the devs it's more of a looter shooter.. I think they don't put that much effort in the multiplayer thing.. I mean sure you have squads of four but that's all there is to mulitplayer.. I personally have no problem with this.. For me it was fun to explore the game on my own at first (my pc couldn't do multiplayer) but I have to mention there were no open maps or railjack or things like that around when I started so it wasn't so overwhelming. But yes there are many nice people who play warframe to help new players.. and that's a nice thing. And I think every gaming comunity has toxic people some where
There's nothing wrong with having a game take a long time to fully expand its complexity; after all, you shouldn't throw too much at new players all at once.
But even from the start, the game should still have enough going for it to be compelling. If the gameplay needs more time to get going, start off with an engaging story hook. If the story is long and needs a lot of buildup, use interesting gameplay to motivate players across those beats.
Shoulda, woulda, coulda. All fine and dandy, but only when devs actually choose to do this.
You comment kinda contradicts itself. You're saying there's nothing wrong with it only really becoming great 100+ hours in while also saying it should already be great up until that point. This video already argues the latter as well
@@Kermit_E_Frog I'm saying it's not wrong for a game to take a long time (100 hours seems excessive but I also look at say fighting games where one can practice for a very long time to master certain elements) to get a player fully into all of its complexities, but that is not the same as saying it's okay for a game to take a long time to be *good*.
One way or another, a game needs to be able to stand as an enjoyable experience from the start. I guess it comes down to having a core experience that is enjoyable even before all of its details are revealed.
Nothing wrong with expanding complexity. But 100 hours is way too long to expand it.
Make it 10 or 20 hours to get to the full game.
Found the FFXIV nut.
One of the things that inspired me to play GW2 was seeing online that each expansion comes with a max level boost and the community consensus is you don’t want to use this on your main character. I am on my second character and still haven’t used it because I am going through a different starting storyline. The game doesn’t get good it is good and the hardest part was getting myself to stop treating the early game like an optimization problem
GW2 is definitely my favorite MMO. I came to it after having played wow in high school, which I enjoyed, but gw2 being free was a big benefit. In general the combat is more fun too, and I think the only thing I miss from wow was the clear cut classes. I like dungeons/healing, and it's not a well played mode in gw2 and the classes seem to support with buffs more than straight up heals.
Meanwhile a friend is trying to get me into Warframe but I'm not sure I'm enjoying the early gameplay loop. Exploration doesn't feel half as fun, and everything dies so quickly that it's not a struggle for survival even. Other friends also want me to play FF, which I enjoy more than wf, but dear lord that main quest is horrendously long lmao
Is no one going to point out the:
“According to RUclips captions I’m Josh Dry Face.”
This is the main reason I usually find mobas or rogue likes more interesting than mmos. You still get to experience progression, but you just start with the fun bit. I don't have to spend weeks or months farming xp to get into a fight against other players. I just hit find match.
It have nothing to do if its a mmo or a rogue like
The game is good or not
Accept it or not
The genre dosnt tell if the games good or not.
Your logic is like
" Alien is a good game cause its a horror singeplayer huh you say this glitch is stiill there and i can trick the ki with that and that trick nooo youre wrong its a horror singleplayer its a good game "
Accept it
Good game or not
if its a singleplayer, mmo or whatever who cares
it should be good or bad but the genre is literally nosense
You literally said mobas are more interesting then mmos but lol the most played moba in the world is the most hated game in the same time
Thasts the perfect proof.
@@sonicartzldesignerclan5763 You do realize that everything you said is utter garbage, right? You just told a person who says they don't like MMOs because progression takes forever that "iT dOeSn'T mAtTeR tHe GeNrE". Are you even reading your posts before you press the send button? MMOs OBJECTIVELY take longer to progress than a MOBA or Roguelike, which is the ONLY thing this person said. You're trying to argue that they're wrong and then bring in a point that has absolutely nothing to do with what the guy was talking about in the first place.
The only "perfect proof" here is that you didn't bother to even read his post.
@@sonicartzldesignerclan5763 man just read the comment properly before you make such a response that has barely anything to do with the original comment. He just said that MMOs take longer to get to good bits of the game which is just a fact. For MMOs you have to invest into it quite a bit more than most other games
MMO's work by promising fun through progression and then never deliver it but instead make you think more progression will make it fun. As soon as I stopped playing MMO's I realised they were boring as hell 99% of the time and the only reason I was playing was to progress in the hopes of it becoming fun.
What they say:
"it gets good after 100 hours."
What they mean:
"it gets good as soon as Stockholm Syndrome sets in."
I don't really think stockholm syndrome is accurate, in a fair amount of cases games do become objectively better than what was previously experienced after a longer amount of play time in retrospect, real issue is why does it have to take that long to start being good? The game might as well be considered bad at that point
@@ortah2616 So being held captive to a game by either friends or others telling you that it gets better after x hours, that is generally seen as bad/subpar/middling for the first hurdle of that time, isn't Stockholm Syndrome? My dude that's like, the definition of HOW Stockholm Syndrome develops.
"Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response. It occurs when hostages or abuse victims bond with their captors or abusers. This psychological connection develops over the course of the days, weeks, months, or even years of captivity or abuse."
You start to feel for the devs and their "passion", or develop unhealthy bonds with Ortis/Kubrow/your frame/clem.
You also can't tell me that archwings, railjack, and the open world areas aren't torturously repetitive. The entire game is a skinner box designed to make you praise the devs for all their hard work, and spacemom at people who don't appreciate both it, and the hard work of the other tenno.
If they cut down the amount of time and effort it would take to get to The Second Dream to... say 10 hours, the game wouldn't stick. The reason why it wouldn't stick is because the person wouldn't feel any attachment or investment to that character.
I'm not gonna say that Warframe is a bad game, mechanically, but I will say that it's basically a Jackson Pollock painting made game. It's a big mess of poorly explained colors all splashed together for you to decide if it's worth your time or not to "interpret."
I suffered from Stockholm Syndrome for 27 years.
I'm finally getting divorced...
@@TheBrokensaintvxvx I would argue it's more "sunk cost fallacy". "Hey, I had my doubts, then I put in 100 hours, and after spending so much *time* (and/or *money*) I am inclined to agree, it really does get good/interesting after this amount of time. I'm glad I stuck with it."
It's how a lot of Gacha games also play out and it creates a bias to where you want to affirm that what you have experienced is the *right way*, so you charge other people with doing exactly what you did so that they can get the "authentic experience".
Stockholm Syndrome: psychological response. It occurs when hostages or abuse victims bond with their captors or abusers. This psychological connection develops over the course of the days, weeks, months, or even years of captivity or abuse.
Fomo: a social anxiety stemming from the belief that others might be having fun while the person experiencing the anxiety is not present.
Sunk Cost Fallacy: The phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it, even when it is clear that abandonment would be more beneficial.
Tell me how these three things don't apply on one another? Gacha games, and most FTP/mmo/mmolite/mmorpgs all capitalize on these things.
Think about Warframe, and the terms of endearment thrown at the in game antagonist. Who it is, and how people felt when it was revealed. Then, go onto DE's twitch/youtube channel and just WATCH the simping chat.
"Trust me it gets better after x"
I'm not going to stick around until it gets fun. If the game sucks and I'm not enjoying it I will simply stop playing the game. Telling players to "Just keep going, it gets better!" Is an excellent way to make players feel pressure to play the game which ultimately (at least for me) takes away a majority of the fun. Not to mention that in those 10, 50, 100+ hours there's a very high chances that I will burn myself out trying to get to "the fun part". This typically makes me resent a game leading to my inevitable departure.
"Trim the excess off and place quality over quantity." Josh is a man of culture, I approve. Whether it's something recreational or not, even a job you first had as a hobby for example, it's important to like it in order to keep going at it. Else you'll just end up switching the moment you have a proper opportunity to do so.
While the Devs do some great work in Warframe, the lack of animation quality, level imbalance and story design is disappointing.
They were given the ball, but dropped it
This is why I can't get into MMOs or Mmo-like games, and I do consider gaming a hobby at my leisure. I need more than just "Do big numbers" though.
Of the issues with warframe, story design and animations are deffo not up there
@@Celestialbeing21 Then warframe just isn't for you, it wasn't for me either. That doesn't mean something like FFXIV, PoE, or upcoming New World isn't. But even then, those games do require a certain level of commitment. You might prefer something more instantaneous and gratifying like Doom, LoL, or Apex. It doesn't mean any of these games are bad, it just means they appeal to different people.
"If you see slogging through the beginning as a badge of honor, you're malicious."
OSRS community in a nutshell. Vote "no" on anything that give skills more options to train.
In fairness, OSRS is fun from like 5 minutes in.
But I'm not a fair critic, I put literally 30,000 hours into Runescape before I quit because I realized I was addicted. Edit: So yeah, actually (not a joke) ignore me because I genuinely cannot possibly be unbiased on the topic. I don't know what I'm talking about or what the experience must be like for new players.
They Also vote “no” on any new skill jagex proposes
@@icarus9389 they'd vote "no" on jagex if they could, should take a gander at the subreddit sometime it's a trainwreck
@@NilesBlackX Only 30,000? The game gets good after 100,000 hours.
I vote yes on literally every poll without reading it at this point.
If it's such a terrible idea then the OSRS Team wouldn't propose it in the first place.
As Warframe addict i appreciate you talking about this. keep them coming.. this game is great but has many MANY flaws that can easily fixed but just isn't.
I really hope you enjoy stuffing all the forma in the world into Lich/Sister weapons -_-
@@SmogginMog jokes on you i dont give 2 shits about forma lmao
I loved Warframe from the start.
I damn hated the need to finish all the planets. I hated to farm rep.
But after some time...
I started enjoying rep farming, because I wanted the reward - it will somehow help me play more smoothly, easily or makes me stronger.
I damn loved the option to run the planets again in steel path.
If Warframe spills on you all the content, stuff you can do, places you can go, things you can unlock/farm/grind/buy in these two hours - you would quit also no matter what.
You need to feel the passion to explore and dive into all the stuff to enjoy it, this all can't happen in two hours in such complex mmo.
It's the same with EVE let's say. Once you understand the complexity, then it's fun because you know what to do. It just can't be told in such short time-span.
And I think the problem with 60% of people not making it into 2hours is mostly due to how different Warframe is. I have a lot of passionate MMO friends, many of them liked ingame systems... just didn't like the sci-fi hyper-paced theme of WF, but they gave it a shot anyway - thus not hitting two hours. So it's kinda unfair or even rude, talking this bad about devs when this 2hrs achievement is not showing the numbers.
Warframe is the best MMO imho: (and hell yea, I've played a lot of frikin MMOs for thousands of hours in total)
- free huge content updates kinda regularly.
- zero need to pay
- everything is farm-able/grind-able
- trade community is great (wf.market)
- great learning curve
- great (sometimes deep) lore
- free!
Don't take it offensively, I watch you for years - and I often agree with most parts of your vids.
Just wanted to share my opinion.
🖖
Dude shut up... warframe is trash... first off warframe is not a mmo... deal with that... second warframe has so many issues
I have a love-hate relationship with WF. On one hand I like the grinding, farming rare stuff, the base gameplay is great. But then I hate how the game forces you to level up all the weapons and warframes - even the bad ones - if you want to get better stuff. They could just make leveling up your character like in a normal MMO. You have built and modded a cool shotgun and you are a shotgun guy. But if you want more shotguns, you need to first level up bunch of weapons that are either boring or weak or both. You craft the weapons only to level them up for a gazillion hours and then sell them because you can't even have unlimited inventory space for weapons and Warframes. That does feel like a huge waste of time. And then you realise there's hundreds of weapons you need to level up in the same way instead of actually playing the game. You spend most of the time running with some random bad gear without mods instead playing stuff YOU want to play because the progression system is built that way.