Not all of Bavaria is Bavarian
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- It's hard to believe, but a lot of Bavaria doesn't always count as Bavarian. So what does? And why?
Try this video:
• Banditry, bureaucrats ...
Chapters:
00:00 200-year-old borders
01:15 From duchy to kingdom
02:03 What is the real Bavaria?
03:14 It matters to some
Music:
"Style Funk" and "Hot Swing"
by Kevin MacLeod incompetech.com/
Creative Commons Attribution licence
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The last bit about not being hessian shows you german identity in a nutshell.
The most important part of german identity is that we are definetely not the same as those bastards in the next village, thank you very much.
Everything else is optional.
I know it from Baden-Württemberg: "Schwabe schaffe, Badner denke!"
I was born in Württemberg and spent most of my childhood in Baden (though at some point I defected to Styria, Austria ... different story and here the people are glad they aren't Carinthians or Lower Austrians).
Sometimes I'm European. Sometimes I'm Bavarian. Sometimes I'm Middle Franconian.
But I'm definitely not Lower Franconian despite living in Würzburg - that is very important!
@@klamin_original Are you ever a german?
Are you sure you're not Maltese? I've been living in Malta for over 20 years now, and I've come to the conclusion that the Maltese mostly identify themselves by who or what they are NOT. So each parish (this still being one of the most catholic countries in the world, and the most catholic in Europe only after the Vatican) has its own patron saint, band club, and festa - a feast with lots of food and drink, and processions where they carry the statue of that patron saint around the village.
And oh dear if there is more than one parish in one village, as is the case in Qormi for example. What ensues is a rivalry, which may go as far as people insulting the patron saint of the other parish. One-upping the other party, locally known as "pika", is very important, too.
You'd think they have nothing better to do here. Yet, I'd say the Maltese are one of the most homogenous countries in Europe (together with Iceland), and it's exactly because of that that this inherent rivalry exists. When everybody speaks the same language, and everybody has the same religion, how can one differentiate oneself?
Except against foreigners, of course.
@@Alaryk111 No, what would I have to do with Germany, Germany doesn't exist as an identity, in Southern Germany it's mainly the regional identities.
"are you Bavarian or Franconian?" "I'm not Hessian" is the German equivalent of "Is whiskey Scottish or Irish?" "It's not English"
Vale! Así es exactamente! Recuerdos de Suabia, un parte de Baviera.
Or is it whisky rather than whiskey?
@@MHParkison
Whisky (plural: whiskies) = Scottish
Whiskey (plural: whiskeys) = Irish
@@modmaker7617 As Germans would say in that case "Hauptsache mürbe in der Birne" - roughtly "The main thing is it makes you silly in the head" :D
Ah yes Germany. We may have problems to show our German patriotism outside of the football european or world cup, but oh boy do we have a strong regional patriotism :D
Not really
@@magmalin
Oh dear we have strong regional patriotism. I grew up in in North-East Baden-Württemberg.
There was a stron emphasis that we are not part of Swabia but Badener. On the other hand historically and language wise we are West-Frankonians :P
Which is way different than Allemans in South Baden - around Freiburg.
That's not just a german thing i would claim. Regional or local patriotism is the same for your neighbour to the south, and their neighbour to the south west and the french....
And i remember a scottish comedian being asked in a TV show by someone foreign "why do you have so many dialects and accents here?" And his answere with a smile was "So that we can more easily hate each other!".
@@TheDunbartxeen Actually, you are, as we are on the Bavarian side, East Franconians. West Franconian doesn't exist in that sense. There is South Franconian around Heilbronn. West Franconian, if you wanna use this word, is more towards West Germany and even far into the Netherlands. I speak from a dialect perspective and also from a historic one - Charlemagne, King of the Franks, was from Aachen and kinda founder of Germany and France (Frank(en)reich). But yes, I was always eager to tell visiters that Schwäbisch Hall ist not Swabian but Franconian when I lived there ;D
RandomDude. I am Italian and the same happens here. Also there are noticeable rivalries in side the regions too. In mine (Campania) for example people from Salerno (The second most important city) have a rivalry with Naples. But the best can be found in football teams. For example don't ask to a supporter of the team of Rome that Rome and Lazio (Named after the region Rome is located) they are the same. They would probably crucifix you.
Finally! I've been waiting for this video for a very long time, Andrew!
And... you might have guessed it: It does matter! 😂
Abgesehen vom Drachenlord bin ich sehr stolz auf Franken. 😄
Franconia master race
I recently moved from Lower Franconia to "and Aschaffenburg" and am loving it. They are just a tad more chilled.
I remember stopping on the Autobahn on the way to the former GDR region. I wasn't sure if I had already crossed the old border so I asked the guy at the petrol station.
I didn't want to be insensitive so I didn't ask if we are in East Germany so instead I asked if we are in Bavaria. His answer was a swift and straight NO; after a way too long pause he said we are in Frankonia.
Since your mentioning the GDR. There is a tiny village that was divided by the border between west and east Germany, Mödlareuth. Upper franconia for the west German part and Thuringia for the eastern part. A couple of years ago the ZDF produced a tv show about it. But they had the people from the Franconian side speak in a thick Bavarian dialect. The outrage within Franconia was huge.
They still have their own Flag...
Of course, part of Franconia is in Thuringia which was in the GDR.
Well Frankonia is the Bavarian version of East Germany
In the Thuringian Forest (where Franconian dialect is spoken), some towns used to be very hard to reach, especially in winter. The Itzgründisch dialect for example hasn't changed a lot over the last centuries due to this isolation.
My Eldest Son was born when we lived in Oberbayern, but he was born in the next village which is in Schwaben. He's very pleased to say he's Bavarian and Swabian. (and British, and ethnically half Japanese... it's complicated.)
Did you guys learn to speak German while there?
@@Kivas_Fajo How? It's Bavaria :)
@@BangOlafson Okay, I re-phrase that. Did you guys learn any Bavarian? Servus.
@@Kivas_Fajo We moved to deepest Schwaben after that, so I 'll let you make your own conclusions about our German language ability...
Is it that important to be born in a certain region? I don't really get it.
“No self-respecting Franconian would ever admit to being Bavarian.” I agree. And yes, I was born and raised in Franconia.
Well Atbaiern makes sense not only historically, but in terms of language: in altbaiern (and Austria) bavarian dialects are spoken. Not so in Swabia and Franconia.
Exactly we franconians have our own unique dialect.
As neither a Bavarian nor a Franconian, I'm absolutely incapable of making out any difference in your dialects.
@@lonestarr1490 that is to be expected. It's like my american wife hearing dutch or schwyzerdütsch. drives her nuts that it sounds like german to her, but she can't understand it.
@@lonestarr1490 Fraenkisch wird nicht nur in Bayern, sondern den kompletten Main bis an den Rhein gesprochen. Der Nuernberger Dialekt zB. ist also eher mit dem Karlsruher als mit Oberbayrisch oder Steirisch verwandt.
Du kennst vermutlich nur bayrische Akzente - Leute, die wirklich Dialekt sprechen, sind inzwischen rar. Ich bin 38, und in der noerdlichen Oberpfalz aufgewachsen, mit dem dortigen lokalen Dialekt. Als ich nach Oberbayern gezogen bin, konnte ich die Leute dort verstehen, sie mich aber nicht - obwohl wir alle bayerische Dialekte gesprochen hatten. Ich wohne nicht mehr dort, wenn ich aber dorthin zurueck komme, faellt mir auf, wie wenig Leute dort noch Dialekt reden - die meisten sprechen inzischen bayrisch gefaerbtes Hochdeutsch. Es ist krass, wie stark sich das in den letzten Jahrzehnten veraendert hat. Die meisten Leute, die nicht in Bayern auf dem Land aufgewachsen sind, kennen nur das Muenchnerische (was eben nicht mal ein Dialekt ist, nur ein hochdeutscher Akzent).
Wie gesagt, Fraenkisch ist eine komplett andere Dialektgruppe.
Und die dritte Dialektgruppe, die es in Bayern gibt, das Schwaebische im Suedwesten, ist eben Teil der allemannischen Dialekte und damit enger mit Schwyzerduetsch als mit einem Bayrischen Dialekt verwandt. Bayrisch-Schwaben gehoert dementsprechend auch nicht zu Altbaiern.
@@w1darr Ich habe Verwandte in Passau und hatte mal eine Freundin, die war aus Ansbach (genauer: aus Feuchtwangen). Ich habe mich also wirklich in beiden Kulturkreisen bewegt und dabei auch jeweils mit Dorfbevölkerung Kontakt gehabt ;)
I as a Bavarian have one aspect to add: The "Freistaat Bayern" (Free State of Bavaria) is written with an y, because one king in the 19th century wanted it this way. But the language and culture group is written Baiern with i.
So Austrians are Baiern, but no Bayern. Franconians and Swabs are Bayern, but no Baiern.
Get it? ;)
Just a data point from my experience: I met a guy with a beautiful Swabian accent, but when I mentioned that part of my family is from Stuttgart, he was very insistent to be a *Bavarian* Swabian, and not to be confused with those "Wurttembergians". And for foreign readers, this gets fractally complicated when you consider that only part of Wurttemberg is Swabian, too, but also has Franconian and Allemanic regions, and let's not even get started about Badenians. None of this matters in professional life, but these distinction start to matter a lot the closer you get to a tavern, a local sports club, or the socializing part of a small town's fire department.
I have got friends from both sides and don't ever mention to either of them the other part as being the proper swabia😂
The only thing those two groups can agree on is not being 'Badenser'
For a Spanish or French reader all of Germany is Alemanic.
@@Alaryk111 - true... but more precisely it is one of the Upper German group of dialects, that also intersects with Swiss German.
You shouldn't confuse someone from Upper Swabia with someone from Stuttgart either.
Actually, most people don't care about the dialect spoken as long as it's understandable and the speakers don't regard themselves as superior to others as a lot of upper Bavarians (Oberbayern) do.
9 years ago, I came back from a trip to the Balkans. On the way back, we drove non-stop with several drivers from Sofia, Bulgaria to Cologne. When after many hours of driving we hit Germany near Passau, we thought to ourselves: "we're finally back in Germany. Not much longer now." The trip through Bavaria seemed longer than that through Austria and Hungary combined. It just didn't want to end. Just past Aschaffenburg I almost got out of my old Citroen to kiss the (Hessian) ground.
If you reached Bavaria - you are not in Germany (yet). Both Bavarians and Germans would most likely agree on this. And both would agree that you are in Bavaria. And yes technically it is in Germany but there is a certain tension between Bavarians and Prussians (for Bavarians that means everyone else in Germany).
@@DerKiesch I agree as well. I am German after all. The Weißwurstkanal is a long way from Passau.
Welcome to Germany.
In case anyone Wonders.
Yes. This is pretty much what all of Germany is Like.
Germany is made up of over 1000 Territories which used to be Semi Independent with their own Culture.
A few Kingdoms, Alot of Duchys and Countys, A bunch of Citystates and a Metric Crabton of Baronies, Knighthouses and other Territories that for whatever Reason remained Semi Independent.....
Many of which up to this Day have their own Coat of Arms or even Flags...
And many of which up to this Day insist on being Considered to be whatever their Culture was Named instead of being Lumped into one of the 16 German States we got nowdays....
The looooong Shadow of the HRRDN (or HREGN)
@@derauditor5748 Meinst du "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation", kann man auch so sagen um es unkompliziert zu machen.
Also eine Antwort macht so keinen sinn, sollte eigentlich woander stehen.
For me, it's a strange thing: I'm from Thuringia, but in the Vogtlandian part, so we're typically more closer to our Saxonian neighbours (my parents being two of them) than our fellow Thuringians (or the very next town for that matter). However, we feel next to no connection to Frankonians (despite being their closest to the North) or to Bohemians, even though they were part of the Vogtland, too. It was a cross-state area, yet was split up so long, it barely feels like it.
"how dare you clumps us, Dumpfuckstein in same place with those bastard Dumpfuckburg"
I have a friend living in Franconia which I visited several times already, it's Middle Franconia; they speak the Franconian dialect and are culturally different to Bavarians for the most; the landscape is very different, but at the same time, we eat Bavarian breakfast...It's a bit iffy, and sometimes they do wish Franconia was able to obtain statehood.
I'm a guy who grew up in Cadolzburg/Middle Franconia. Thanks for noticing the difference.
@@GeoStreber Servus Nachbar (Zirndorf) :)
@@nfp911 Nachbar ist relativ. Ich wohne jetzt in Kopenhagen.
@@GeoStreber Mein Beileid
@@nfp911 Halber Langenzenner hier :)
As a guy who grew up in Cadolzburg, a suburb of Fürth, thank you for clarifying this cultural Franconia/Bavaria thing to an international audience.
Thank you! This was a very important video. Too many people think of Bavaria as a homogeneous entity, even though this isn't the case. I, as a Franconian myself, am truly grateful that you mentioned this important distinction. In addition: the greatest difference nowadays is not the history but of course local culture, architecture, cuisine etc and in those regards, Franconia could very well be an entirely separate state.
The following is just my opinion and other Franconians might see it differently (this is also heavily influenced by my general opposing political views on Söder): I see in Söder a Bavarian, yes he was born in Franconia and visits our region on Frankentag, but he has played into the culture of the Altbayern down south a great bit. Of course, this is expected by the others in Munich, but this IS the problem. We are (currently at least) still part of Bavaria and therefore our culture shouldn't be neglected, we shouldn't feel that we are supposed to ponder to the Altbayern if we want to go into politics because no, their culture is not superior to ours. Another factor in our (my) negatively connotated feeling towards the south is because except for Nürnberg/Fürth (and maybe just maybe a bit Würzburg and Bamberg) most development, infrastructure and attention is granted to Munich and its surrounding land (and Augsburg but that's just a good thing for the Swabians).
I feel the overspending on south bavarian infrastructure is a pain in the ass for big parts of Germany.
Wiedervereinigung mit dem Rest Frankens.
@@jobue394 Meinen Sie Südthüringen?
@@sk.43821 ja und Nordost BW.
To be honest, the animosity against the 'central' state would seem quite typically 'Bavarian', with some minor frictions like Oldenburg that are mostly folklore now. I see no Pfälzer demanding a split from Rheinland-Pfalz, and even less reunion with Bavaria. And maybe Baden was against a union with Württemberg and Hohenzollern in the 40s, but by the 70s, a second referendum was very conclusive for remaining in BaWü.
there is a similar thing in Georgian region called autonomous republic of Adjara, in the north there is Kobuleti municipality and no self respecting resident of Kobuleti would ever admit to being Adjarian, they say that they are Kobuletians. Rest of Adjarians make fun of them because of that.
❤️❤️❤️
@@_Yume_mp სადაური ხარ? მე ბათუმელი ვარ.
Ah yes, the Aschaffenburg conundrum. Or as Urban Priol (a comedian from Aschaffenburg) put it: "I'm a borderline Bavarian with a Franconian migration background!" (He's got a whole spiel about where he's from and what that area is part of in one of his programmes. It's hilarious.)
So, wie der babbelt, is dess n Hess.
@@rosshart9514Is des *„a“* Hess bidde. Abkädsds *„n“* von *„ein“* kummd vom Nordn und is a Fremdgänger der si bei uns neigschlichn had.
Spot on! It's fascinating how Aschaffenburgers don't want to have anything to do with people on the other side of the river. We speak the same dialect, gíve or take, and Aschaffenburg was the second residence of the Mainz elector. For some reason, Kurmainz does not feature as a common bond anymore. And yet, they refuse to be called Bavarians inside Bavaria.
you are a small channel and you consistently provice subs. not that i use them but i love it when creators provide them!
Funny random video recommendation. I am a hungarian living in Franconia now. Sometiems people are really really grumpy to us foreigners, but other than that I think I like it here. I did see a bit of history in Nürnberg castle museum, or the Bad Windsheim Freilandmuseum, plus some bits and pieces living here and it does seem that Franconian is a strong and pretty well established identity. I was born as an ethnic minority on the territory that used to belong to my ancestors for a thousand years, so I can respect people being proud of their heritage.
Do you happen to be from Romania?
Very important topic, which you explained beautifully.
Ganz gut gemacht, mate!
When Franz Josef Strauß was elected Prime Minister of Bavaria he made his inaugural Visit tour in Lower Franconia an held a speech in Aschaffenburg.
In this speech he called the Aschaffenburg region the last hair on the tail of the bavarian lion.
The at this time acting District administrator answered: And we feel us treated like this by the government of our Land.
They told us FJS was very angry.
"Last hair on the tail"? That seems like something that Strauß would say out of anger!
My great grandmother was from Kelheim, which is at the most north western part of Lower Bavaria.
But the next bigger city just a few kilometres down the river Danube is Regensburg, which is the capitol of Upper Palatinate.
And most of the villages west to it belong to Upper Bavaria.
Also it's also not far from Middle Franconia which begins at Hipoltstein just a bit up the Rhine-Main-Danube-Canal, which itself ends in Kelheim.
So whenever my grandfather was asked which part of Bavaria his mother was from he just said "From Kelheim" and let them decide which part of Bavaria it belongs to just because he didn't know himself.
Frei statt Bayern!
Greetings from Hesse. Just so that you know: an instructor at a my former employer firmly stated: south of river Main the Balkans begins. So you might consider yourself a Slav. (He came from Hamburg, so this mistake might be excused)
Well for them Hannover is basically south Germany
A former university professor of mine was of the firm opinion that everything northern of Gießen is basically Southern Sweden
@@countessbathory676 That's hilarious 😂
The Balkans start at Ingolstadt. Check the old roman Limes line. Everything in former "Rome" is Balkans. ;-)
Well according to Chancellor Adenauer, Asia starts right east of Deutz (a part of Cologne east of the River Rhine based on a Roman Castle that guarded the civilised world from the Barbaric Germanic tribes)…
Excellent video, Andrew! Could have done with this information when I, as a clueless Brit, married a lower Franconian and moved to the bottom left hand corner of the Main. It took me over 30 years to fathom out what you just explained in a few minutes! All so very true ;))
Absolutely love your content😂🤩
Great video, thumbs up!
Best wishes for a good recovery from Hesse ! 🙂
This is so well made ... As a true "Frankfurter" I always liked to make fun of my fellow colleagues from Aschaffenburg, who would speak a true hessian dialect although living in the furthest corner of Bavaria. And dare you mention that ... ;-)
Servus aus der (unterfränkischen) Rhön! You summed this up pretty much perfectly, and I will definitely share this explanation with friends in the UK and US because maybe then they'll understand that I am not Bavarian 😅
Today, I was just thinking about whether you lived in Hesse or Bavaria! Nice to know now.
Doesn't he live in Aschaffenburg? O_o
Wait it is Bavaria for real, damn.
@@georgereddy7752 not in Aschaffenburg, but in Kleinkahl, a village belonging to Aschaffenburg District
You were making lovely videos on many towns and landscapes in Hesse. I almost thought what I must not think ... 😉
A friend of mine was very upset, when I said, he was a Bavarian and said: "I'm no Bavarian. I'm a Franconian."
I used to live on the Hessian side of the Bavarian border and as a Zugereiste (originally a Rheinländer) always thought it to be weird to be so close to Bayern, but then not really Bayern.
I visited Aschaffenburg a couple of times and it is such a beautiful city! Now I am still in Hesse, but closer to Wiesbaden/Rheingau.
I recently moved to Munich being from Upper Franconia. Never considered myself Bavarian before the move but the way people are receiving me as "the Franconian" I definitely know now I was right. They don't consider us Bavarians and we don't consider ourselves Bavarians despite being tied together politically. And to be fair, the culture and dialect definitely is distinct to each other so it makes sense to me that we do consider ourselves our own entities. Your comments make it seem like you are almost belittling these distinctions but it would honestly feel weird for me calling myself Bavarian.
Komisch, in München leben kaum Bayern, Franken ist mehr bayrisch als München.
My ancestors came out of the Bavarian part of Bavaria. But I was born and grew up in Middle Franconia. I don't know who I am sometimes.
Wow, I didn't know that you're from the good part of B*varia! Good for you!
Greetings from Farge. This is the northernmost village in the northernmost district of Bremen.
I was born here and grew up here and even live in my grandparents house. From 2003 to 2014 I lived in Leipzig. That's why some people here see me as having moved there.
LOVE THAT!
That is more a Franconian approach to things. I have lived in a region where Berliner (people from Berlin) have usually bought holiday homes, after retiring they have often moved completely. I know a Berliner who was living 43 years in the neighbourhood, but has never been invited to the "Stammtisch", despite sitting 43 years on the next table as a regular. Well he was asked the following year to join, but omg, 43 years!!!
historical borders are such a common cause for friction in germany, truely. Some time after WW2 some communes around here were changed from a county in baden to a county in württemberg. Then in the 70s there were reforms, to simplify admisnistration. And because of the old baden/württemberg split, the communes around here tend to be waaaaayy smaller and messier than in regions where everything is clearly on one side of the border. And there are already many mixed ones. When i go to other regions of germany i always am amazed at how many villages can combine themselve into being one entity. Am used to it being 3, maybe up to 5 whole villages into one commune, when i go elsewhere it's often in the double digit amounts of small villages combined.
From what I heard in bavaria, there is a part of bayern called Franken which in english is Franconia. So it is a state which contains another unofficial state.
Indeed.😀
A Friend of mine grew up in Würzburg Franconia. They had to sing the Bavarian because of the curriculum of the free state Bavaria. After that they always sang the Franconian anthem twice. 😅
So ist es aber auch richtig (Ich komme aus einem kleinen Dorf nicht soo weit von Würzburg)
At least from my experience the Germans like to group themselves by their dialect more than what state they are from.
True for the most part. This is due to the fact that, as Rewboss pointed out, at least half of the modern 16 states are actually relatively modern constructs, often created by the Allies after WW2 (all of the hyphenated ones for instance). Therefore, they still struggle to build up a real "state identity". The dialects however, signify often very old, sometimes tribal Germanic cultural roots (e.g., Bavarian, Franconian, Swabian, Saxonian etc). Beyond that even the dialect groups (e.g., Alemannic, Austro-Bavarian etc.) hold certain modern identities for people, even across borders into neighbouring countries (Alemannic dialects for instance are spoken in France, Germany, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, and Austria).
Which in Bavaria more or less results in the administrative regions of Bavaria.
Someone from Ochsenfurt, a town located some 10km into Lower Franconia identifies more with the Lower Franconian dialect than someone from Uffenheim, 10km into Western Middle Franconia and someone from Rothenburg ob der Tauber or Ansbach, some 25 to 50km into Western or Southern Middle Franconia. And when you're looking at Middle Franconia there's also this dialect shift beginning around Neustadt an der Aisch, around 30km east of Uffenheim, so one could say that's central Middle Franconia, where the dialects change to a more Nuremberg style dialect, the Middle Franconian dialect Lothar Matthäus still speaks that nobody from the Western part of Middle Franconia speaks.
So you see it's complicated even within the administrative regions.
But that's what happens when you got centuries of different duchies owning the lands and separating villages from their neighbors just to propagate the true faith (like protestantism).
@@BlueHans Yeah, let's stick to that story and pretend there is really a rational reason behind it. The ugly unspoken truth: small town folks enjoy nothing more than feeling distinct from their neighbors, and making up reasons for dissing them. But we don't talk about that.
I mean, a lot of those "regional pride" quirks refer to some kind of tribal identity. But if the history just really doesn't line up to give a reason, any other excuse will do, too, to explain why those guys over there are really dumb, and we are not.
In fairness to small town folks: It's not that this doesn't happen in the big cities either. You can insult any "true" Hamburgian by implying he is really from Harburg, or Pinneberg, or Barmbek, or any of the Büttels,..... Can't find any "tribal" or "historical" reasons for that, other than claiming that Altonaer are really Danish.
@@BlueHans "all the hyphenated ones", except Schleswig-Holstein (?)
@@stefanb6539 well. and that Harburg, the Büttels etc, (except Pinneberg, which isn't in Hamburg even today) used to be their own villages until 1937. Btw, Harburg is called "Northern Bavaria" in some parts of Hamburg...
Someone from Franconia, Nuremberg here... And I would say I feel both Franconian and Bavarian.
I have two theories as to why this is. Either it's the Stockholm syndrome, or I got so annoyed during the long period of CDU/CSU government for being taken into kin liability for some CSU nonsense, even though being a Franconian/Bavarian doesn't automatically make you a CSU voter, that I gained my sympathy for Bavaria the moment it became good manners to complain and make fun of all of us Bavarians.
Being beaten together brings us Franconians and Bavarians closer together.
I can only speak for myself.
But if I as a Franconian were beaten together with a Bavarian, I'd use my last strenght to kick the Bavarian, too.
Reminds me a bit of the island of Goeree-Overflakkee. They spoke the dialect from the province of Zeeland, wore the traditional clothes of Zeeland, are _gereformeerd_, like Zeeland, and are an island, like so many in Zeeland. Except all of it has been under the control of South Holland since 1805, and most of it even longer. So if you ask anyone from or around the island where it really belongs to, and you’ll get wildly different answers.
Really good.
As an Upper Swabian European I can fully concur.
I worked in Augsburg in 1969, and thought I was among Bavarians until I became aware that my native Augsburg coworkers were speaking Swabian. Later I learned that the Lech River is the dividing line between the Swabians and the Bavarians. Of course, don’t forget that München also has a district known as Schwabing, because Swabians lived there.
But the mentality of the Bavarian is basically:
„Wenn man ned a woschechter Bayer is, is a Saupreiß!“ 😂
Great job as usual. Leave it to the Brit to do the research!
Next, expand on Schwaben, a confusing topic even for many Germans.
That made me laugh. Thanks!
I live in Rheinland-Pfalz. You can hike up to the Pfälzerhüte in Malbun, Liechtenstein. They call it that because the guy who built it came from the Pfalz.
As someone from Baden-Württemberg I'd like to kindly ask for that part of Swabia to be returned to us, thank you very much.
nobody would miss it here 😂
Most Bavarians would gladly give it back , but then there would be nothing between BaWü and Oberbayern anymore, and Bavarians also don't want that lol
We'll gladly exchange it for our Franconian territories that you occupy.
@@leDespicable And Franconia too.
@@jobue394 a free state of franconia, in the historical borders would easily be the largest state in germany. to me there is the south (everything below the Main river), and then there is the north, we have the mountains, they have the sand.
geil! Ich musste am ende wirklich lachen.
I live in Bremen but for a lot of old people from Bremen I do not because I live on the wrong side of the river Weser which they do not consider to be the real Bremen.
Out of curiosity: What's the "wrong" side of the Weser?
@@nuvaboy The left side.
@@nuvaboy The wrong side is south of the Weser like Huchting and Woltmershausen or even the Neustadt. The real Bremen is north of the weser with the inner city parts.
You shouldn't care as long as you feel well where you live.
This is also the case in Göteborg/Gothenburg in Sweden: old city people don't consider the island Hisingen to be a part of the "real" city other than administratively. It's most probably a thing worldwide.
Living for almost 6 years in the country side between Würzburg and Nürnberg, yes I quite understand this, and yes frankonian can distinct between each other by their own city.
My history teacher always jokingly told us: "Bavarians are decendents of romans that had problems with their feet and invading barbarians." But that's kinda true for a lot of regions in Europe. :D
Aren’t Bavarians Germanics? They and the Austrians are descended from the Buavari tribe. Romans attempted to destroy Germanics but were destroyed instead.
i didnt know that about north-austria thank you :)
I was born and raised in the middle part of Hessen. At age 21 I moved to schweinfurt, 3 years later to Nürnberg. I know that struggle of Bavaria and Franconia very well. The 300km to my parents house is such a big cultural difference! Some people still say: in Bayern (including the Franconian part) gehen die Uhren anders. They are always a bit extra to the rest of Germany. I don’t like the fact, American people thinks, whole Germany is like the southern part of Bavaria….
And while Aschaffenburg is certainly not in Hesse, the economic ties of Aschaffenburg and its surrounding areas are strongest towards the Rhein-Main region, which for the most part is within Hesse. And also the dialect of that area is much closer to what you would here in the Rhein-Main region than to any other place in Bavaria, and even to the Franconian spoken around Nuremberg. (No surprise, as it is geographically much closer to Frankfurt than to Nuremberg,.)
I used to have a girlfriend who was from the Nuremberg area, and the probably worst insult for her was to be called a Bavarian. 🤣
0:50 Careful. Part of the Palatinate, the so called Saarpfalz, is in fact not part of modern-day Rhineland-Palatinate but of Saarland.
I'm fascinated by the history of Germany in the 1800s...but unfortunately I know very little. Supposedly there were 440+ individual kingdoms/city-states until Napoleon overran them? Then he reduced the number substantially, around 40? Then the unification by Bismarck in 1871....and things get fuzzy after that (admittedly, my "knowledge" is fuzzy entirely LOL)...
I'd love to have an illustrated book with at least a broad overview of Germany's history of that era. Any suggestions?
As a real Spessarträuber i can relate to the importance of this we-are-not-living-in-Hessia-thing. Erbarme, die Hesse komme!
I found the title quite peculiar, but once I watched the video, it makes perfect sense! Hence, depending on whether you are talking about federal states or geographical regions, you can call yourself a Bavarian, a Franconian, or an Aschaffenburger... and "definitely not in Hesse"! Thanks for the video!
I lived in Germany in the 70's, in the area of Hesse around Fulda. I was fortunate to travel around most of "West Germany". I found dining in Germany's restaurants and guesthouses a delight. To my tastes, Hesse has the best food, hands down. When I returned to the USA I was eager to try German food and was disappointed to find find most "German food" here is actually based on Bavarian recipes and dishes. I hope to return so that I can try what was "East German" dishes. I have heard great things about the food in the eastern part of the country.
As an Irish person I would like to say that Bavaria, alright I’ve mainly been to Munich, has the best Beer!
wrong that truly is Franconia, but never mind. :)
In the South one usually prefers easy to drink beer from huge Breweries, nothing wrong with that, whereas in Franconia one has many little and sometimes tiny Breweries with a signature taste, for example the village "Aufseß" it has around 1.400 inhabitants, but 4 Breweries. On average there is one Brewery in Upper Franconia per each 5.500 inhabitants.
You should try more and other beers. Besides beer was brewed in North Germany when Bavarians still grew wine.
Alright. And Bourbon is the best kind of Whiskey. /s
Who cares about beer when it's all about the disastrous politics here in Bavaria from which only well situated people profit.
@@berndhoffmann7703 There are many small breweries in Old Bavaria, too, every brewer creates his own, distinct, yummy, too-much-yeast-for-supermarket-shelves Weissbier. It's not as densely packed with small breweries as the Fränkische Schweiz, but there is still some local beer culture going on.
This probably runs under the topic "Haarspalterei" ;-) Me as a born Hessian had to smile about the not being hessian notion. Reminds me a bit of how Bud Spencer in a movie was asked whether he was Italian and he said "no, Neapolitan". At the end of the day one cannot choose what state they were born in, it happens as it happens
HRE borders must have kept the cartographers very well compensated.
Yes.
Yes, Nuermberg for example is a city in FRANCONIA. Franconia came to Bavaria in 1806, because of Napoleon Bonna Parte. So the Bavarian is south of the river Donau
Oh, Aschaffenberg! I'm there now! Although I have an attachment to Franconia, so I feel somewhat lost.
If I do remember right, this "and Aschaffenburg" part was once part of Hesse, which my hessisch neighbours cannot get over with to this day 😀
As a fellow Aschaffenburger (originally from the Spessart) I definitely agree with the Not Hesse sentiment. I personally have only heard and used the Franconia/Bavaria distinction jokingly, but the distinction from Hesse is very real
Danke!
Ooh, thank you. :)
so passionate about not being hessian haha didn't know people where so passionate about that in that area. I just love the uniqueness of different parts of Deutschland , I only spent a short time in Germany but love the culture no matter where you come from. I love hearing the differences of bavarian vs. swabian etc.
One more difference:
People in Altbaiern speak in Austro - Bavarian dialects.
While all other bavarians outside of Altbaiern speak either in Franconian or Swabian dialects, both of which are very distinct from Austro - Bavarian and can be immdietely distinguished by german native speakers.
It's important to remember that the modern nation-state is a liberal concept that was slowly born from Enlightenment ideas and forwards, but mostly in the 19th Century, and as such any part of history before that only had some fuzzy ideas of shared ethnicity, language, more or less some common or shared history, and evne fuzzier territorial lines. While most of the wars were not between "countries" but between kings, their subjects, and the aristocratic dynasties they belonged to. This is worse in Germany than in most of Europe, a "country" where the idea of a cohesive nation took so much longer to reach some form of conclusion, compared to other old countries like England, Spain, or Denmark
In the early and high Middle Ages, it was actually reversed. the German Emperors, like Otto and his kin, were a lot more powerful than the French Kings who, for a long time, only had real power in the Ile de France, their nominal vassals, the Dukes of Burgundy, Aquitaine, the Counts of Flanders, Normandy etc were the real men in power. but from approximately the 12th century, while German imperial power waned, and after the 100 Years' War, the French king could centralise his power, culminating in the Sun King Louis XIV.
Oh awesome. We are from the same city:)
Kirchturmpolitik. Love it.
Easy rule, if speaking to a foreigner or a German who is not Bavarian, one is Bavarian. If speaking to Bavarian one is Franconian, if on is speaking to a fellow Franconian one is as well Franconian, if speaking to a fanatic Franconian one is Bavarian. Did I really say easy????
??
Greetings from South Baden, or what used to be Further Austria...
I just wanna know whether the German tourists I met years ago quietly thought I was stupid for saying my gramma was from the Bavarian city of Schweinfurt.
Yeah they probably kinda did as someone moving from Schweinfurt to Munich in roughly 2 weeks. Schweinfurt is part of Mainfranken (The village I spent part of my childhood in before that roughly 20 min away from SW would be even more specific and only refer to itself as being from the Mainschleife/ Mainbow) or Unterfranken you'd even get away with just calling it Franconian but never in my wildest dreams would I call it Bavarian except to explain the rough location to foreigners and even then I always tack on a "northern".
And Im not even particularly picky with calling myself bavarian as I've lived all over the place middle franconia, under franconia, lower Austria (also slightly judgy if you misidentify your specific region), my Dad was raised in Munich but his parents are from Saxony and Hamburg, my mums side hasnt left under franconia in centuries. Germans (and Austrians) tend to be particular about this sort of thing but there is always a lesser of evils you could identify them as. Like Bavarian is still better than hessian or god forbid thuringian.
"Man soll dem lieben Herrgott für Alles danken, sogar für Ober-, Mittel-, und Unterfranken!" Gerüchteweise Inschrift einer Kachel im Münchner Hofbräuhaus.
Auf Deutsch ;) Viele Orte am Main hoch gehörten bis 1816 zum Erzbistum Mainz, auch deine Ecke, Schau dir nur das Stadtwappen. Wenn du da ein weißes Rad auf Rot siehst, dann war das mal unter Mainz
Man muss Gott für alles danken, auch für Ober-, Mittel-, Unterfranken.
Gruß aus Niederbayern.
Aaahahahaha, German particularism never fails to amuse! 😂 Thanks for the great video, I didn't know Söder was actually not a "true" Bavarian. Then again, what does a Saupreiss like me even know about Bavaria at all?^^
Beside the seven administrative regions, there are another ones who are simply called "regions", which are geopraphically the same, but were this "regions" arent part of the bavarian state administration. They are part of the independent communal structure, were city- and district governments are also a part of. The main diffrences between them, are other competences and responsibilities.
As a franconian from Nuremberg i can say that its a lot more complicated than this. The real old cultural border between Bavaria and other cultural territorries was the danube river for centuries. South of the Danube river was definitly Bavarian and in the west Swabian. North of it is way more complicated. These cultural differents are dating back thousands of years. When the romans came into the modern day Bavarian Lands they just got as far as the danube river and spreaded their culture just in this "real Bavarian" region. The Danube was their border in these times and they never got north of it (except singular little exploring missions which werent successful). Thats why the big Roman city of Ratisbona, modern day Regensburg is at the northern most point of the Danube river but on the south side of it and not on the North. Thats why the "Oberpfalz" region is cultural mostly splitted in two halfs. The part south of the danube which is clearly bavarian infused and the north part, but which also isnt really franconian. Upper-, Middle-, and Lower-Franconia are cultural mostly consistant because there is no big natural border like the danube that couldnt be crossed (The Main river is much smaller than the danube and is crossable by many bridges and ferrys for long times). But as well there aren´t big natural borders in the west of Franconia. Due to this fact its not a big surprise that the franconian culture is more similar to the cultures in the modern day north-western Baden-Württemberg, southern Thuringia and parts of the south of Hesse. So the territorries of modern day Bavaria north of the danube and the ones south of it had nothing to do in common until Napoleon came in conquested everything and gifted the kingdom of Bavaria these (not really bavarian) lands north of the Danube river in 1806 which isnt long ago.
Haha, yeah I saw those Bavarian flags coming by train from Frankfurt in direction Aschaffenburg, even though the dialect there is more like Hessian. And for the people in the other German states, they can''t really differentiate between Franconians and real Bavarians. For them it's mainly just all Bavarians. I just know the difference since I lived in Würzburg for some time.
I am born in Coburg, moved to Hof, then to Hanau, then Fulda and recently moved to Würzburg... I always say I am Franconian, not Bavarian. Furthermore, I even identify my self as a Hessian (because half of my life I lived there), but never Bavarian!
We have wine, they only have Berchtesgaden.
And I thought you were from Elfwood...
But Coburg isn't even Franconian, is it? Untill 1920 Coburg was an own state in the German Kaiserreich.
@@rittersportfanWhat absolute nonsense. Just because it was a separate state doesn’t change anything about the *fact,* that it’s still culturally and linguistically in the Franconian spectrum. Cultural borders usually stretch over political ones, look at how many Hungarians live outside of Hungary, and if you were to ever search up a map of the spread of the Franconian dialect group, you’d see we actually also have regions in Thuringia, Hessia, and Baden Württemberg that are all culturally and linguistically Franconia, with people acknowledging that they’re Franconian both in language and culture, despite not being part of any of the three modern day Bavaria subdivisions that make up the main body of Franconians.
So the question is what regional accent of German do they speak in Aschaffenburg? Is it the Hessian Frankfurt dialect or the more southern bayerisch ? And which football team so they root for ? Eintracht oder Bayern? 😉
In Aschaffenburg, they speak a South Hessian (Rhenish Franconian) dialect called _Untermainländisch,_ which is similar to the dialect in Frankfurt.
I spent months in Bamberg and Lichtenfels for work a few years ago. Blue diamonds were nowhere to be found :-) just red and white Franconian colors. War super. Hab' auch in Baden-Württemberg gewohnt aber Bamberg hat mir deutlich besser gefallen. Schöne Gegend. Aber Rauchbier kann man vergessen. 😀
And then there's the culture.
My wife's uncle lives in Dinkelsbühl, supposedly Bavarian, but no one there cares about any aspect of traditional Bavarian culture, and when I was there I had no sense that it was similar to München at all or that anyone spoke or understood the Bavarian dialect. Just a regular part of Germany like everywhere else.
Given that Bavaria only acquired Franconia because it sided with Napoleon and betrayed the rest of Germany, Bavaria should have to give it back! ;P
0:53 The Palatinate of that time is today also to some part modern day Saarland
Lest not forget that Coburg and Rodach were actually Thuringian Franconians until 1923 - just like the parts from Salzungen over Suhl to Hildburghausen and Sonneberg in Thuringia still is. So, there might be some that could consider themselves "previously Thuringian Francs now in Bavaria." ;-)
The fact that modern Länder incorporate different historical regions and also split them has always puzzled me? Was it done for the divide et impera? In comparison to my country, Italy, German States follow historical borders less than Italian regions do. When did some big reorganization happen? Any German/German history nerd here?
Grown up in the frankonian part of Baden-Württemberg, I still struggle when I hear you say, you live in Bavaria. Same with NALF, who claims that Schwäbisch Hall is Bavaria, or people saying that Rothenburg ob der Tauber is typical bavarian.
For me, Bavaria is the land where Bavarians live, who speak bavarian and that is surely not Frankonia or Swabia.
💯 agree. Best greetings to the beautiful Hohenlohe Region. Resided on (Schwäbisch) Hall for one year and could identify so many similarities to my Altmühlfranconian heimat.
Interestingly, this seems to be very different in Swabia (at least east of the border). Sure, people here identify strongly as Swabians, and the dialect sounds noticeably different to the ones spoken in the other Regierungsbezirke. But in addition to that, people who grew up around here definitely define themselves very strongly as Bavarians (if at all as Germans). Greetings from Augsburg 👋🏻
4:32 then why are the people there speaking an Hessian dialect? I have a friend from Alzenau who is convinced that because he grew up a stone throw away from the border it makes him 100% Franconian and he has to be like that. This is also the only reason he is a fan of 1. FC Nürnberg instead of the much nearer Eintracht Frankfurt or Kickers Offenbach...
Shh! Nobody's supposed to mention the fact that everything west of the Spessart is historically, linguistically, and culturally more linked to Frankfurt than it is to Würzburg.
@@rewboss I think most people in old Bavaria would consider everything north or west of Würzburg to be completely removed from any cultural Bavarian influence. Franconians are kinda considered diet Bavarians in my experience.
@@MrOxxxxx the Main is the border, and my hometown is on both sides of the river. so there. :)
"then why are the people there speaking an Hessian dialect?"
Isn't it just the other way around? To my knowledge "Hessisch" is a franconian dialect - "Rheinfränkisch" if I remember correctly.
@@MrOxxxxx "diet Bavarians"??? Ganz dünnes Eis mein Freundchen...
Another question: What about the Bavarian part of the Odenwald? How Bavarian is Amorbach, really?
As an East German I lready got judged by locals for moving to West Germany. Having Moved to Franconia it got even more, because Bavaria does not have the best reputation in the other 15 states. But when having moved here, complaints already began again, because I had to learn this is more importantly Franconia than Bavaria where I had moved, coming to the fact, that me being East German makes me a "Saupreiß" (Prussian Pig) and that really makes it too much then 😂