How To Make Music In 15/8 And 15/4 - And Other 15-Based Signatures
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- Опубликовано: 26 дек 2024
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If you are watching this video thinking that you will never use a time signature like 15/8 in your music, then fair warning: in this video I will try to change your mind.
While not as common as other time signatures, 15/8, 15/4 and other 15-based signatures have been used extensively in music, and with great results.
The tricky thing here is that in many situations when the music is based on 15 beats, the score is not notated in 15/8! As we'll see in the video, sometimes composers prefer to use other way to notate pieces of music that work in 15 beats.
In this video we'll see together a few examples of music in 15, how they work, and how you can use what you learned here in your own music.
And before I forget... yes, if you write music in 15/8 this may upset your drummer. But that's a small price to pay for sonic beauty.
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finally, someone who doesn't immediately lose me when they say the dirty word "theory"
I'm Bulgarian so my 'natural' 15/8 is the groove of the folk dance 'Buchimish' (2+2+2+2+3+2+2)
Bela Bartok "stole" a lot of Bulgarian songs, so he uses time signatures like this, in the same way.
Vasil, but tubular bells would be a variation 2+2+3+2+2+2+2 or perhaps the folk rhythm in retrograde.
just thought i should let you know that, although i am a keyboard player rather than a guitarist, i find your videos very instructive and have learned a lot of helpful theory.
Same here!
Keyboard player as well! 🎹
Yep same here!
Keyboard player reporting in!
Funny enough I follow the guys at open studio and this guy. Lol
Woooow. This was so amazing. Finally after all these years I get a bit of ideas on how an old DT song works
Haha... yea that track did my head in when I first heard it.... The whole album melted my brain actually....Finally we know.😂👍
This guy is the best theory teacher. I have taken lots of lessons and even a little music school. This guy shows you what you need
Dear Sir,
You are an artist and a wonderful communicator with a sense of humor. Truly enjoyed the 7/4, 7/8 and 5/4 videos. Much gratitude.
Nice description of compound time and triple meter
I love it when he goes "but you can do whatever you want!"
The one rule about music is: If it sounds good, it's right. (Music Theory is an attempt to describe this formally.)
This is great! I learned so much in that short video. No matter the topic I find your information easily digestible and very useful. Although I think I have a pretty good theory knowledge I am finding that your videos expand my knowledge on things I thought I already knew. It's a different way of thinking about things and the way it's presented.
Oh...and Thanks for the DT breakdown. I had almost forgotten how awesome that track was. There is a song by The Mars Volta that I think is in 15/8.
I tried forever to count it and in the end it was where the snare was falling that led me to count a bar of 7 and a bar of 8. I'll have to go back and have another listen as the accenting is way more complex than 7 and 8.
Cheers.
Its the bridge of Cygnus Vismund Cygnus. Endlessly fun to play.
Another great example of music in 15/4 is Profondo Rosso by Goblin
Tubular Bells is pure art! Only one song for almost 50 minutes! ;)
It's definitely not the only one
I mean even Mike Oldfield himself composed more pieces like this
@@wojciechdraminski3035 Yes, it is! Tubular Bells part 1 on side A and Tubular Bells part 2 on side B. That is because it was recorded on a vinyl LP and the song did not fit in one side. If we had CDs back then problably wouldn't have "part 1" and "part 2".
@@wojciechdraminski3035 Not as good as this, though, and the reason why might be that he stole the idea of "Tubular Bells" from Christian Vander and Magma.
It was used in a Bollywood horror movie
River Man by Nick Drake is in 15/8, or 5/4 triplets, or even 5/4 in swung rhythm if you will. I never realised the song was in an unusual time signature until I sat down to learn it, until then it only felt a bit 'wobbly' to me at most. I think it's largely because 5 subdivisions of 3 (=15) comes really close to the usual 4 subdivisions of 4 (=16), which can make it go by unnoticed.
I love your pace - you take it somewhere beyond interesting to borderline exciting - which is not the way I would normally think of music theory :)
Genius!!! Very clear and informative explanation, your videos are amazing. Thumbs up :)
I recently saw a live stream of a rock band playing in 15/8; never expected that from the genre; usually I see exotic key signatures in Jazz.
I usually think of common time signatures in jazz but prog rock full of ‘strange time signatures’
Great video!!! Soft Machine's song 'Out-Bloody-Raegous' is in 15/8 time signature, it has a 7.5/8 feel to it.
I just wanna comment that the fact that you use only the guitar in your course, not a piano (as you say in the video) should be reason for applaused. I often find it very hard to translate theory/chords, etc from piano to guitar... so cheers man!
Nope, not just you. I remember the first time I tried to play along with Tubular Bells and I got it! And then I didn't, so I had to figure it out twice. Ever since, unorthodox time signatures have elevated any music I listened to over music that follows more orthodox time signatures.
I second the recommendation to listen to Tubular Bells in its entirety. I have a CD with Parts 1 and 2 and there is some really cool stuff in there.
i never knew until know the 8 in the base ment triple meter untl now and it makes sSOOO much sense! thanks so much!!!
... that's not what I say in the video.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar oh sorry! i was drunk and i may have mixed up words i heard
You twice miscounted the dream theatre 15/8 in a 14/8 pattern (3+3+4+3+1) at 8:15. The thing though that I find interesting in 15/4 is that due to the accents you can make the rhythm sound like there is a beat missing or a beat added. Tubular bells can also be heard as a 7/4 pattern that adds an extra quarter note every other time. In fact, this is the natural way the mind perceives it as the melodic pattern is exactly that (one extra beat every other pattern). If you did accents grouped in 4, the fourth pattern would miss 1/4 (4+4+4+3). So one way skips a beat, one way adds a beat. Alternating between these two rhythmic/melodic patterns keeps a familiarity at the same time unfamiliarity (7+8+4+4+4+3) for a 30 beat pattern.
The way Mike Oldfield considered the melody in Tubular bells was a bar of 7/8 and a bar of 8/8
@@TheHatMusic yes,that's the way I hear it. I was saying by changing accents, the 15 beat pattern could easily be a 30 beat pattern.
@@tonyr.4778 .... yeah, I just read it back and that is exactly what you're saying. Sorry matey, I'd missed that.
Just saw this now, great information ,thank you 👍👍👍
I count the intro in tubular bells like slow 7/8 - 8/8 or fast 7/4 - 8/4. It makes it easier for me when the keyboard loop starts on every first beat
Can you please make a video explaining rhythm cadences?
I know much about chord progressions, but i cant seem to grasp what is a rhythm cadence.
Thank you for everything. Love your content
You might want to continue on the subject of poly rhythms in the future.
Great Video!!
Great Examples!!
The Ocean by Led Zeppelin is a 15-beat phrase too.
Wowww ❤️👌👌👌 thanks for bringing it up from the basic theory 🔥🔥🔥👌🙌 ❤️❤️....... love you for the perfect polyrhythm example ❤️❤️
complexity well explained - thx!
I'm loving these odd time signature videos Tommaso. Thank you much for doing these!
What's the dream theater song called?
"learning to live" from the "images and words" album.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar man, that's one of my all time favourite songs! Such an underrated gem
This video coming just when I'm learning to play Learning to Live, speak of synchronicity.
Good luck man! I'm working on that as well...
Thank you! I love this song, but it's beat always messed with my mind! Now I've got it. 😉 tavi.
Other songs in 15/8 and giant time signatures:
. "Limo Wreck" by Soundgarden (12/8 and 15/8)
. "Breadcrumb Trail" by Slint (7/4, 4/4, 12/8, 15/8, 9/8 and 10/8)
. "Firth Of Fifth" by Genesis (long Piano intro switches between 13/16 and 15/16)
. "Nosferatu Man" by Slint (5/4, 6/4, 10/4, 18/8 and 21/8)
. "Crystalline" by Björk (17/8)
. "Moon" by Björk (19/8 or 19/4)
I found some others: "The Day I Tried To Live" (Soundgarden); "The Wait" (the Pretenders); "Siberian Khatru" (main riff) by Yes. "Five Five FIVE" by Frank Zappa is 5/8 + 5/8 + 5/4. In fact, a lot of Zappa's stuff has weird time signatures in it.
Don Ellis (jazz trumpeter) composed many things in weird time signatures. He even has an album called _Live in 3⅔/4 Time_!
I like to think of TOOL’s songs “Intension” and “Right in Two” as being in 14/8 and 11/4 time, respectively
Very nice explanation!
Excelent! Amazing vídeo...
Re: Tubular Bells -- wow, I don't think of it that way at all. I almost think of it as an odd-time-signatured clave: 4 groups of quarter note, quarter note, dotted quarter note, followed by one quarter note.
Exactly how I think, 7/8 4 times with an extra quarter beat at the end. The 4 7's make a14/4 and the last quarter makes a 15.
Wow brilliant explanation of odd and complex time signatures. Just as with all your lessons you food for thought for a long time. Frank Zappa talked about putting a 3 over 4 or a 3 over 5 or even 3 over 7, to generate polyrhythms. 3×7=21 beats, with accents on every 3 and 7.
Buenísima data, justo que ando queriendo resolver unas bases en 7/8. thankyou
There's a solo on Outlier (by snarky puppy) which is in 15 / 8. It's a saxaphone solo, but ghat damn it was so strange to hear, but so addicting to learn.
I had to count 2 6's and a 3 for it to make sense to me! Check it out!
Awesome lesson. Thank you so much. ^-^ Any thing more about poly rhythms and odd time signatures would be great. Also, something delving into some interesting patterns to play once in awhile would be great too. Not licks per se, but ways of moving through changes (or even a vamp) using different patterns.
check out middle eastern "belly dance" music. 13/4 is used for experienced dancers, and I know of one modern one that is 20/4 (the drums go 20 beats without repeating a pattern) and they go down to 2/2. So lots of variety, and time tested as well.
Hello! great video. A comment! at least in Europe most of scores for the Tubular Bells are transcribed in 7/8+7/8+7/8+9/8, which gives 30, not sure if the acccents are more accurate in this notation.
Regards.
Joan
Yeah I was about to comment that too
7+7+7+9 gives the wrong accents to my ear. If we want to go this way, a better one would be 7+8+7+8
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar I have to agree! because I always played by ear, until today I 'counted' it... and your proposal was natural indeed. Thanks!
MusicTheoryForGuitar in my first attempt i counted in 8th notes and got a 7+7+7+7+2 pattern, then I counted in quarter notes and got the 4+3+4+4 pattern and find it harder to get back to the former one.
Yinchen: this is probably because 4+3+4+4 fits the accents and 7+7+7+2 does not ;)
The Dream Theater example comes off as a 15:4 polyrhythm. As it could be notated as J.P. playing 1/4 stabs in 4/4.
In the case of the Dream Theater song, wouldn't it be a polymeter instead of polyrhythm?
I think you could analyze that in either way. When we go and look at these things close by, the distinction between polymeter and polyrhythm is quite blurry. If it is a polymeter, then in what time signature would you write the guitar part?
In 2/8 maybe?
So it would be 2 bars of 15/8 vs 15 bars of 2/8? It would be a bit awkward in notation, but possible.
Yeah i know lmao Dream Theater is just too hard to notate
It's easy to confuse the two, but i say this is a polymeter because polyrhythm is two overlapping time signature for the same bar, so unless you notate this in 15/4, I'd say it's a polymeter
Thanks, now I can beat the barrier trio
Thank you Tommaso... Is there a recommended method to figure out the Time signature of complex rhythms like the ones you convered here?
I usually just count the beats and mark the accents. Some rhythms are quite tricky to figure out at first, of course.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar I agree... Tubular bells was hard to figure out...may b because of lack of percussion
At 8:13 I was confused because you say 3 in the place of the 4. 3+3+4+3+1 makes 14 and not 15.
"Making a song and dance" by Earthworks has some 15/8 in it.
Odd time signatures are commonly difficult for most people to access. Most popular music is written with even divisions and most often in 4/4.
You gotta go the whole 9 yards with the 9/4- 9/8 video!!
He's so good he can clap with one hand!
I see Dream Theater, I click
Tubular Bells to me is 7/8 + 7/8 + 7/8 + 9/8. Or yes, the way you described it with syncopation. Goes to show: there's a part left to interpretation, and not "one" right way.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Dream Theater example a polymeter instead of a polyrhythm? If I'm wrong, then could you tell me what kind of polyrhythm it is?
Thank you as always, my good man.
Why no 5/4 counts? I assume that's fine and you just couldn't get to everything. Is that right?
These are possible too, but I could not find an example. Do you have one in mind perhaps?
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Not specifically at this moment. This is stuff that I'm learning and I'm simply trying to grok it all. I see common 5 5 5 1 or 5 5 6 for 16 beats in some modern heavy music lessons (I'm learning everything that I can) and so I assumed 5 5 5 would be an easy option for a 15/x measure. Maybe it's too easy, too pedestrian? :)
If it was 5 5 5 I would (probably) just notate it as 5/8 and think of phrases that are 3 bars long.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Well that makes sense. Sometimes the obvious is only obvious once someone points out how obvious it is. It seems to happen a lot with music and physics.
Thank you again!
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar The Frames "When your mind's made up"
I would say the first example is 3/4 with 5 bars per phrase
I am confused by the first 2 minutes where you say that these time signatures - like 6/8 and 12/8 are just 2/4 or 4/4 "played in triplets." If a triplet is 3 notes played in the space of 1 or 2 or 4, etc, then in 12/8 they aren't triplets. They are just 12 notes played in the space of 12 notes. I'm thinking of songs like Dedicated to the One I Love by Mamas & Papas in 6/8 and Since I've Been Loving You by Led Zep in 12/8. Am I wrong?
Please break down some more Dream Theater analysis! :)
Am a little confused about you first say that 15/8 is not 15 beats, but equivalent to 5/4, aka 5 beats, but then you speak of "15 beats" anyway?
Thanks for the video!
Really interesting to see that Tubular Bells is notated that way. I transcribed a piece the other day (Gold Dash by Gacharic Spin: ruclips.net/video/l8hE7XlRkUA/видео.html ) where the verses alternate 7 beat and 8 beat patterns and I'd been debating whether to write it as 15/4, a bar of 7/4 and 2 of 4/4 or whatever. I ended up laying it out the 4/3/4/4 way as I felt it would be easier to get the feel of what the songs doing rhythmically but wasn't sure if it was considered a 'proper' way of doing it.
I was composing a song that used 15/8 (4/4-4/4-4/4-3/4) and then I thought it might be stupid for people who actually knows theory. Now I se it wasn't
Never let the fear to appear stupid stop your from writing a song ;-)
Missed a beat at 8:09? You counted the last 4-1 as 3-1, making it a 14, not a 15.
ARGH! You're right, my mistake!
Happens to the best of us. :) Thank you so much for all your many videos. You're an exceptional teacher.
I have one in 15/16
Hi Master! Please put the generetad inglish subs! Love your channel, greetings from Argentina
8:10 , you wrote 3+3+4+4+1 , but counting it as 3+3+4+(3)+1😅.
I’ve tried and counted it as
3+3+3+2+2+2, we’ll yeah that didn’t include the accented notes so well as your counting.
Ok ok it’s just a small mistake. I’ve tried it again. You wrote correct but didn’t say it right. 😜
I'd count it like (3+3)+(2+2+2+3), or for my Bulgarian brain it would be 'Pravo horo'+'Daychovo horo'; for the Indian guys maybe you would count it like something familiar to your folk culture, I guess...
Running across "Tubular Bells" always disgusts me, because Mike Oldfield evidently stole it from one of my favorite bands, Magma.
Magma had put out several albums in weird times and weird tonalities (possibly using the Locrian mode). Christian Vander (drummer and main composer) was in the studio one day, working on a new album, when Mike Oldfield stopped by and listened for a while. Then Oldfield went off and wrote and released "Tubular Bells". When Vander listened to the album, he was amazed at how much it sounded like the piece he had been working on. Furthermore, Vander couldn't release his new piece, because HE'D be accused of plagiarizing Oldfield, when it was actually the other way around! In fact, some of his other ideas were so close to this that he scrapped them, and the next few Magma albums sound different for this reason.
Wow had no idea on that one
Early Dream Theater songs are the best!
I see tubular bells like 7,7,7,7,2 rather than 4,3,4,4
Listen carefully - there's an extra note after your second 7, then the pattern repeats, so 7,8,7,8,.. (or 4,3,4,4,4,3,4,4,...)
Pretty complicated it is, like most odd time signature. 😜😅
How is 12312 12312 12312. 5/4? It's 15...
Two words: "Limo Wreck"
LMAO! I came here to understand how to write drums/percussion in 15/4 and my dude ended the video with, "...And, let's not get started on what the drums are doing..."
I'm dead y'all.
15 is also three groups of quintuplets. But this is not done because there is no standard way to instruct to play in tempo with five to a beat.
I don't see any problem in playing 5 to a beat, or teaching it. See ruclips.net/video/oeEgAFsNbDg/видео.html
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar If you want to split up beats in weird ways, no one beat Frank Zappa. Especially "The Black Page #1": ruclips.net/video/CmV3Bf2veAg/видео.html
His accent is so tasty!