I understand the statement in question giving people pause. It gave me pause. It should be revised and reworded. The exceeding majority of the document, however, is perfectly Orthodox and really solid. What upsets me is all the comments I've read (usually from people who are still inquirers/catechumens) saying things like "I'll never step foot in an OCA parish" or "what jurisdiction can I join to avoid this?" This line of thinking leads to people abandoning the faith altogether or joining silly schismatic groups. Leave it in Christ's hands, participate in the life of the Church, and pray. Simple as.
EDIT: SEE REPLY FOR CLARIFICATION BASED ON A CORRECTION FROM FR HEERS. It's funny because I'm reading a Saint who says things about heterodox, Judaism, and even pagan beliefs that sound just about as favourable as this sentence on Judaism. I think we can all choose to read it as intended or we can focus on worrying that it could be misread longer than it takes to recommend a clarifying rewrite. The writing I'm reading, btw, is The Agony of the Church by St Nikolai Velimirovich and I have to say it's really tingling my anti-ecumenist hackles at times but since he is a saint I assume he's not veering off the narrow path but perhaps is standing on that other side of the road to stop us making the opposite error. With the current bit of internal conflict between Orthodox channels calling one another out in mind, I would love to see some more learned or qualified people than myself discuss this work.
@@Brody-Aleksander Thank you for bringing me back to this because I need to edit. I asked Fr Heers about this and he says that in his younger years up to about 1915 St Nikolai was not yet fully Orthodox in his teachings. Now the work I cite was from 1917 so I am now not assuming anything until I read more of his later work. But yes in general saints can get things wrong - usually facts or pieces of information rather than theology or doctrine, but even then there can be mistakes. Only God is infallible and we can see the Holy Spirit in action where the saints have consensus, so their personal mistakes don't affect this.
Good video. I agree with Brother Nathaniel and even support him on much of his more controversial takes. I guess I’m a “Brother Nathaniel stand” so to speak. That said we definitely shouldn’t start dragging the OCA over this or even assuming nefarious intent of the author. We all agree a correction needs to be made and it’s good that it’s been called out but no need to start tearing our garments.
That specific paragraph was actually authored by Fr Lawrence Farley. Thanks for your work and honesty Raphael! It’s a very problematic sentence that can lead to confusion.
I lived in a Jewish neighborhood and religious jews treat goyim as gum on their shoes. Non religious jews are accepting. I question his definition of Judaism as they vary from temple to temple. It's like comparing protestants there rabbis have opinions that vary. I think wading into those OCA booklet and looking as something ill said as exhaustively dogma get a life. I am OCA and think this is just stated poorly and will be revised.
In my experience, not all, probably not even most, religious Jews treat non-Jews that way. It's also something I've seen in multiple religious groups. If you wanna see some religious people look down on people outside the group, Evangelical congregations often go above and beyond in this regard. The long and short of it is that we, as humans, suck, and when we strongly feel we have something others don't have, that makes us special or better than them. I've met Orthodox Christians who think this way. At times, I've thought this way. It's all pride, the oldest sin in the book, literally.
Yet the OCA keeps producing rotten fruits over and over. Are we not to inspect fruits? I must say as a Orthodox Inquirer im torn. I went to a Romanian OCA for 3 months but the Vax mandates barred me from entry and I left for a while. The other OCA church is about 2 hours on the bus and train away which is okay in the summer but pretty rough and unreliable in the canadian 8 month winter. The church close to me is ROCOR but heavily Russian culture focused, and a extremely small parish... just me and 2 Russian families... I'm really craving a community I could be a part or and contribute to. I would love to meet people my age range, even just a few. I always hear about these being good reasons to join a church but my experiences so far have been isolating and pretty lonesome. The greek church and the Ukranian cathedral here both feel like cultural centers that feature a Orthodox Church. The celebration of Nationalism and War / Anti-Russian sentiments in the Ukrainian church is heart wrenching and it along with the Greek church have stores in the narthex and National Flags hanging up... it felt incredible strange and not like what I've heard... Pretty lost and I know I just gave a bunch or dumb wordly excuses. I will continue with the small ROCOR church near me and leave it in Gods hands. But maybe you have some reflections? If you read this big fat blab of TLDR wow, thanks!
@@Brody-Aleksander It says in the Didache "NEVER encourage dissensions, but try to make peace between those who are at variance." (section 4). I am in ROCOR and I love ROCOR but a fault of some of our clergy is that they would rather not make peace with the OCA, and actively fan the flame of dissension. This is not what Christ commanded.
The men of my parish went on pilgrimage to Hermitage of the Holy Cross in WV a few weeks ago. No better place to get away from the nonsense amd controversy (especially with zero cell reception and no WiFi). Love the early morning walks from the guest house to the church.
Relistening becauseI missed the first bit. Lol, I didn’t realize the “I stand with Br Nathaniel” video had any context to it besides saying he was a good dude 😆
I would agree about assuming the best intentions but it's hardly the first time. I'm afraid if we all just keep praying and not speaking up, soon enough we'll have no official Orthodox Church in America at all (not OCA just any non-catacomb, non ecumenist Church). I'm not exactly eager to run somewhere else. I'd rather stay in the OCA and have things go in the right direction. I'm honestly tired of what looks like American Orthodox passing the buck on issue after issue for years now.
“Greece ehhh…” 😂 The big problem I have is that if clergy or laymen from different jurisdictions point fingers at each other for doctrinal, ecclesial or liturgical errors, then how the heck does a new convert and specially an inquirer do to know what is what? More in countries like the US with many different options.
"'I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.' They said to him therefore, 'Where is your Father?' Jesus answered, 'You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.' These words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come." John 8:18-20
My personal opinion is this: I have no problem with saying that Judaism worships the true God, albeit incorrectly. This is the line I take with all heterodoxy. I have an issue with calling Judaism a "true religion," which implies that Judaism has the fullness of Truth and that the Orthodox Church is NOT *the* one true religion, and that is incompatible with Christian teaching.
If you don't worship God as in the Trinity, you are worshipping a different god. Muslims, Jews, Mormons and Jehovah witnesses do not worship the same God as Christians as in Trinitarians. If you think otherwise... I've got an Abrahamic Faith Center in the middle east for you to check out...
If Islam doesn't worship the true God neither does rabbinical judaism, the first protestantism. Can't have it both ways. Boomers/Xers need to get over their squeamishness on this issue from all the WWII atrocity propaganda they were traumatized with in public schools.
I will in fact put that in my pipe and smoke it. I have a nice church warden Pipe with a large bowl and I will smoke that along with many other things. Me, Gandalf, and Puddleglum will smoke it together with a good discussion and celebrate many good years to Orthodox Review. Good day my good friend.
seems like the passage in question is right on. am I missing something? haha maybe. anyway, the passage sounds right on. OHHHH just got towards the end of the video. I see, it sounds ecumenical maybe. But not really :)
I was just chrismated on 03/26/23. I don't understand all the politics. Do I have to know them? I'm just happy to have Christ Jesus and be in the body of Christ. My distriction is so small that few people know about us. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA. Thank you for the reviews. I'm enjoying an prayer timd with the Anthologion because of your work.
Hello sir, I was wondering if you know of any Serbian prayer books in English? I’ve been looking around but most are either Greek or Russian based. Thanks so much 😊
This is how our brains work, the left hemisphere that we use to communicate with is only aware of what is directly in front of it, it has no apophatic reasoning and thinks it knows everything. It is also the weaker hemisphere. Get out, get some exercise, quit trolling on the internet.
CORRECTION: the author is Fr Lawrence Farley, not Fr Pat Reardon.
I understand the statement in question giving people pause. It gave me pause. It should be revised and reworded. The exceeding majority of the document, however, is perfectly Orthodox and really solid.
What upsets me is all the comments I've read (usually from people who are still inquirers/catechumens) saying things like "I'll never step foot in an OCA parish" or "what jurisdiction can I join to avoid this?" This line of thinking leads to people abandoning the faith altogether or joining silly schismatic groups. Leave it in Christ's hands, participate in the life of the Church, and pray. Simple as.
"I'm so done with all the drama and the nonsense". Me too.
Commenting for bills getting paid and Spooky being fed. 👍
I love Brother Nathanael!
EDIT: SEE REPLY FOR CLARIFICATION BASED ON A CORRECTION FROM FR HEERS.
It's funny because I'm reading a Saint who says things about heterodox, Judaism, and even pagan beliefs that sound just about as favourable as this sentence on Judaism. I think we can all choose to read it as intended or we can focus on worrying that it could be misread longer than it takes to recommend a clarifying rewrite.
The writing I'm reading, btw, is The Agony of the Church by St Nikolai Velimirovich and I have to say it's really tingling my anti-ecumenist hackles at times but since he is a saint I assume he's not veering off the narrow path but perhaps is standing on that other side of the road to stop us making the opposite error.
With the current bit of internal conflict between Orthodox channels calling one another out in mind, I would love to see some more learned or qualified people than myself discuss this work.
Is it not the case that a Saint could.be wrong in some or even a majority of thier writings?
@@Brody-Aleksander Thank you for bringing me back to this because I need to edit.
I asked Fr Heers about this and he says that in his younger years up to about 1915 St Nikolai was not yet fully Orthodox in his teachings. Now the work I cite was from 1917 so I am now not assuming anything until I read more of his later work.
But yes in general saints can get things wrong - usually facts or pieces of information rather than theology or doctrine, but even then there can be mistakes. Only God is infallible and we can see the Holy Spirit in action where the saints have consensus, so their personal mistakes don't affect this.
Every person who denies Jesus Christ absolutely does NOT worship God.
It's that simple
Good video. I agree with Brother Nathaniel and even support him on much of his more controversial takes. I guess I’m a “Brother Nathaniel stand” so to speak. That said we definitely shouldn’t start dragging the OCA over this or even assuming nefarious intent of the author. We all agree a correction needs to be made and it’s good that it’s been called out but no need to start tearing our garments.
Im blown away by all the anti OCA sentiments out there.
That specific paragraph was actually authored by Fr Lawrence Farley. Thanks for your work and honesty Raphael! It’s a very problematic sentence that can lead to confusion.
I lived in a Jewish neighborhood and religious jews treat goyim as gum on their shoes. Non religious jews are accepting. I question his definition of Judaism as they vary from temple to temple. It's like comparing protestants there rabbis have opinions that vary. I think wading into those OCA booklet and looking as something ill said as exhaustively dogma get a life. I am OCA and think this is just stated poorly and will be revised.
In my experience, not all, probably not even most, religious Jews treat non-Jews that way. It's also something I've seen in multiple religious groups. If you wanna see some religious people look down on people outside the group, Evangelical congregations often go above and beyond in this regard. The long and short of it is that we, as humans, suck, and when we strongly feel we have something others don't have, that makes us special or better than them. I've met Orthodox Christians who think this way. At times, I've thought this way. It's all pride, the oldest sin in the book, literally.
There’s a reason why Jews treat goyim with suspicion or a certain level of hostility.
"I'm not a monk; I just play one on my front porch.". LOL!
Anti-OCA sentiment runs deep in ROCOR. I don't like it one bit.
Yet the OCA keeps producing rotten fruits over and over. Are we not to inspect fruits?
I must say as a Orthodox Inquirer im torn. I went to a Romanian OCA for 3 months but the Vax mandates barred me from entry and I left for a while. The other OCA church is about 2 hours on the bus and train away which is okay in the summer but pretty rough and unreliable in the canadian 8 month winter.
The church close to me is ROCOR but heavily Russian culture focused, and a extremely small parish... just me and 2 Russian families...
I'm really craving a community I could be a part or and contribute to. I would love to meet people my age range, even just a few. I always hear about these being good reasons to join a church but my experiences so far have been isolating and pretty lonesome.
The greek church and the Ukranian cathedral here both feel like cultural centers that feature a Orthodox Church. The celebration of Nationalism and War / Anti-Russian sentiments in the Ukrainian church is heart wrenching and it along with the Greek church have stores in the narthex and National Flags hanging up... it felt incredible strange and not like what I've heard...
Pretty lost and I know I just gave a bunch or dumb wordly excuses. I will continue with the small ROCOR church near me and leave it in Gods hands. But maybe you have some reflections?
If you read this big fat blab of TLDR wow, thanks!
Feel free to just tldr that
@@Brody-Aleksander It says in the Didache "NEVER encourage dissensions, but try to make peace between those who are at variance." (section 4). I am in ROCOR and I love ROCOR but a fault of some of our clergy is that they would rather not make peace with the OCA, and actively fan the flame of dissension. This is not what Christ commanded.
"As an Orthodox inquirer..." idk if you're qualified to be a fruit inspector yet my friend
thank you@@YoungPenitent
The men of my parish went on pilgrimage to Hermitage of the Holy Cross in WV a few weeks ago. No better place to get away from the nonsense amd controversy (especially with zero cell reception and no WiFi). Love the early morning walks from the guest house to the church.
Relistening becauseI missed the first bit.
Lol, I didn’t realize the “I stand with Br Nathaniel” video had any context to it besides saying he was a good dude 😆
same
I’m surprised the scandal wasn’t that dreary cover art!
Bahahaha
We need to correct our errors👍 And love our brothers and sisters in Christ ☦️☦️☦️ The Evil one is our enemy☦️☦️☦️
Great video, very informative. Thanks
Let's do it with Love!
GOAA is still good. The leadership may be lackluster, but most of the Greek Orthodox laity is good and solid.
And there are still solid hierarchs, like Metropolitan Alexios of Atlanta.
Very well said!
I would agree about assuming the best intentions but it's hardly the first time. I'm afraid if we all just keep praying and not speaking up, soon enough we'll have no official Orthodox Church in America at all (not OCA just any non-catacomb, non ecumenist Church). I'm not exactly eager to run somewhere else. I'd rather stay in the OCA and have things go in the right direction. I'm honestly tired of what looks like American Orthodox passing the buck on issue after issue for years now.
Vladyka Alexander visited our Parish "Greece...ehhhhh" 😂
“Greece ehhh…” 😂
The big problem I have is that if clergy or laymen from different jurisdictions point fingers at each other for doctrinal, ecclesial or liturgical errors, then how the heck does a new convert and specially an inquirer do to know what is what? More in countries like the US with many different options.
"'I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.' They said to him therefore, 'Where is your Father?' Jesus answered, 'You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.' These words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come." John 8:18-20
Wise words
The only thing to say about is it is an abomination
I was reading through the the manual the other day, and Fr. Pat (whom I love) doesn’t seem to be a credited author but Fr. Lawrence Farley.
Argh! I got my wires crossed! Thanks for the correction!
I worry for the church I made a recent video about it vlogging whet I can
My personal opinion is this:
I have no problem with saying that Judaism worships the true God, albeit incorrectly. This is the line I take with all heterodoxy. I have an issue with calling Judaism a "true religion," which implies that Judaism has the fullness of Truth and that the Orthodox Church is NOT *the* one true religion, and that is incompatible with Christian teaching.
If you don't worship God as in the Trinity, you are worshipping a different god.
Muslims, Jews, Mormons and Jehovah witnesses do not worship the same God as Christians as in Trinitarians.
If you think otherwise... I've got an Abrahamic Faith Center in the middle east for you to check out...
If Islam doesn't worship the true God neither does rabbinical judaism, the first protestantism.
Can't have it both ways. Boomers/Xers need to get over their squeamishness on this issue from all the WWII atrocity propaganda they were traumatized with in public schools.
I will in fact put that in my pipe and smoke it. I have a nice church warden Pipe with a large bowl and I will smoke that along with many other things. Me, Gandalf, and Puddleglum will smoke it together with a good discussion and celebrate many good years to Orthodox Review. Good day my good friend.
seems like the passage in question is right on. am I missing something? haha maybe. anyway, the passage sounds right on. OHHHH just got towards the end of the video. I see, it sounds ecumenical maybe. But not really :)
I was just chrismated on 03/26/23. I don't understand all the politics. Do I have to know them? I'm just happy to have Christ Jesus and be in the body of Christ. My distriction is so small that few people know about us. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA.
Thank you for the reviews. I'm enjoying an prayer timd with the Anthologion because of your work.
But apparently, I'm not enjoying any grammar or spelling or editorial review before pressing SEND. 🤔 😂
You're better off keeping it simple. And congratulations! Welcome home!🙏☦️❤️
People will endlessly find reasons to complain.
Hello sir,
I was wondering if you know of any Serbian prayer books in English? I’ve been looking around but most are either Greek or Russian based. Thanks so much 😊
Unfortunately, not as of yet. Rest assured, if it exists, I will find it.
This is how our brains work, the left hemisphere that we use to communicate with is only aware of what is directly in front of it, it has no apophatic reasoning and thinks it knows everything.
It is also the weaker hemisphere.
Get out, get some exercise, quit trolling on the internet.
Catechism?
Some folks say The Law of God by Fr. Daniel Syosev is one of the best adult catechetical book to get.
I agree
Thanks
I’d actually agree that the wording on this should be updated. I just don’t generally stand with Br. Nathaniel… lol
Weak
*pokes with spear* whoopsie 🙊