I hope your throat feels better :) thank you for making a video, even if you're sick. I love your videos. I have severe depression so watching your videos helps me get by :) I appreciate your hard work, man!
So let’s look at the Gravity Falls ships we’ve covered so far. Robbry, Wendip, Dipcifica,… By logical conclusion, the next one will be Pinecest (Dipper x Mabel)
Uh.. English is my second language and it's hard to understand particular words sometimes.. what does it mean that a character is "redeemed"? I know the word redeem but I don't kinda get it in this context.. please help😖😖
@@mikesvetlov6374 it’s basically when a character is a terrible person and does awful things, and then that character realizes what they’re a bad person, stops doing bad things and changes for the better.
I’m seeing a lot of comments that say she wasn’t “redeemed” so much as she simply had a good growth arc. And I completely agree. We only see her for a few episodes but it’s just enough to see her knocked down a couple pegs, realize that her family does actually suck, and have her situation explained. It humanized her instead of making her just the Pretty Rich Mean Girl Punching Bag. There’s just enough to show you there’s more to her than the surface level mean girl trope. Enough to make me cry every single time she doesn’t cave at the end of the ghost episode and pulls the lever. To me that’s one of the most powerful moments in the series, because Pavlovian conditioning like that isn’t an easy thing to disobey. And one of my favorite things about it is that we don’t see her personality do a complete 180° afterward. Idk if anyone has read the Lost Legends comics, but the one that focuses on her and her family problems and her going to Dipper for help really shows that while she’s definitely done some personal work, she also isn’t completely Cured™️ of her family trauma and the way it’s shaped her personality. It’s not a matter of like, her being Bad Pacifica before the ghost hunt and Good Pacifica afterward. She’s still herself, she’s just started that growth process. And I love that about her.
If gravity falls had a season three or four before they ended the show I and 100% sure these two would have dated and she probably would have become one of Mabel’s greatest friends dew to her being at their house very often to hang out with dipper, who knows we could have even gotten and episodes or two of them actually going on a date. It would have impacted the ending even more, they could also give more development to the people who need to stand on the symbols
Pavlov actually didn't have anything to do with the whole bell ringing thing. He put holes in dogs' esophaguses and "fed" them while measuring their levels of stomach acid.
I know that this are just fictional characters, but i still see them as just little girls. I dont see it as "redemption", i see it as learning experiences for a child.
That's what I'm thinking lol. It's one thing if we're talking about grown adult characters but they're kids, they are a reflection of their homelife that's how kids work.
Ikr. I would say that most kids are mean as hell before they learn that words and actions hurt others. But kids learn and grow up and eventually stop being like that. Mostly.
I really like them because they bring out the best in each other. Dipper is confident and funny and Pacifica is more introspectiv. It is a great prospect for a few years later if both can grow as people.
The dynamic between them was really fun to watch, I wish there were more episodes to explore their relationship (not necessarily a romantic relationship).
@@gabrielmendonca6853 yeah I wish for that too. But I understand why there isn't season three. This is not an Owl house situation where the network cuts you short. Season one was very hard for Alex to make and he decided that he didn't want to put himself through it two more times. But hey, I have plenty of fanfics and fan art to fill the gap.
@@valentinkambushev4968 Yes, at least his situation is understandable. But it's not like we can't criticize the end result. You're not wrong that we still have fanfics, but it's rare to find a good one.
I will say that redemption arcs are hard, having the character to be redeemed be a child from overbearing/abusive parents is more believable than any of the redemptions that have been for actual villain characters with massive bodycounts.
@@KevinACarroll1996 No, they don't need trauma and not every story does that, but it gives them immediate sympathy points while making perfect sense (living in a family of jerks would easily influence them.) They do need an arc though... Even if they're just a bully who no one else can stand up to, not even their sweet parents, they'd need enough time to show how they bully others, show the dawning realization that what the bully is doing isn't good, have the bully come to terms with this and decide to change, then hopefully show them struggling a bit as they find their way and make up for the past. It doesn't have to take a long time but spreading it out over several episodes or the span of a movie allows for the story to feel more natural than if it happened in 5 minutes (and it would take a really good storyteller to do this in 5 minutes but it's possible.)
Also in this case trauma makes sense because it’s shown in the mini golf episode before that preston and his wife don’t actually care about pacifica, and on top of that preston is just an ass in general so it makes sense he would treat pacifica badly
@@KevinACarroll1996 Simply believability. It gets easier to understand why a person has changed when it is clear that they knew what the issue was. In reality, we often don't see this, but stories have no reason not to include something like that, unless they purposefully want to tie the perspective to the main character directly.
I think people like Pacifica because she admits her mistakes and takes steps to improve herself. She takes control of her own bias and what she can control, and chooses to be better. By the end of Gravity Falls, she's still not a "Good Person" per say... but she's getting better. If the show had some more time and maybe a sequel series, I hope we would have seen her evolve more. But as is... I like where her character went. There's hope for her yet. Also she and Dipper did have quite good chemistry. They are the type to call each other out and make each other better through tough conversations, blunt truths, and also... just enjoying breaking rules and getting dirty together (like, covered in mud and stuff. They're kids bro.). By the end of the series and comic, they are no where NEAR ready for dating, but they are both ready to get to know one another...also enemies to lovers is fun!
Yeah, they just did the whole enemies to lovers thing with Luz and Amity, much better than I think the whole Dipcifica thing would have turned out. Namely cos we got to know Amity as a person much sooner, she wasn't a complete jerk the whole time, and became a lot more self aware a lot sooner as well.
@@tristanemery8748 I just pray Amity doesn't become the next "Zuko redemption" as in people in the far future are going to be spoiled and paint that this specific character's style of development as the next high standard that people will be comparing other mean characters journey towards in the far future. In that case scenario I will begin to actively hate it. In all Honesty we've people can act spoiled when it comes to redemption arcs cause Zuko's was the most iconic one in animation history, and Now years from now Amity's development could probably be treated the same way.
@@toadlord8594 Yeah, I kinda hope that people look back and appreciate her development, but don't hold it in such high esteem as Zuko. He had possibly the best redemption arc in all of animation, as you said. Whereas Amity's, while well executed, was not on the same level as our second favourite "bad-but-sad boy" (sorry, I just prefer hunter lol)
@@tristanemery8748 Yeah i just LOVE Hunter and his evolution throughout the 2nd season was honestly really well done, even more than Amity's in my opinion. He just steals the show for me whenever he's on screen, especially when paired with Luz, Hollow Mind remains as my 2nd favorite episode in the series. Side note: I personally am more a fan of Sasha's development in Amphibia the best than Amity cause to me Sasha's character development felt more...raw and deeper than Amity in my eyes.
Yeah, Disney does indeed have a habit of trying to redeem rich antagonistic characters. especially if they are female characters, but they just had to face it that some of them did have redeeming qualities and some of them didn't.
I mean, the writers of many of these shows actively hate disney. Amity's story is actively anti-capitalist (and gay), Pacifica was the first major one, from alex hirsch himself. So... Yeah.
I think it's simply because a spoiled rich girl is easy to dislike but at the end of the day if she's a child, there's a lot to consider where her behaviour may he a result of poor parenting and/or her parents just being bad people in general.
Oh yeah tell me about it! Like Maleficent and Cruella De Vil! Like what the fuck with the latter, her name literally means cuel Devil and yet I know how they explained the origin to her name on her film! Like what's next? An origin movie to Cinderella step mother???
Don't forget the original Rich-Bully-Turned-Good-Guy for the Disney franchise: Emperor Kuzco. He's actually the real first character to do this in all of Disney's history. Everyone cites Zuko but forgets Kuzco. Also, let's ignore The Emperor's New School because it already was stated to not really be canon, anyway.
I mean, do we even have to ignore it anyways? Both the movie and the show deal with the same idea that he isn't a perfect person and never will be, but he's still human. Able to learn and eventually grow up, even if he initially does not recognize his own capabilities or that he sometimes needs a vibe check.
Everyone talks about Zuko more because in terms of development the two characters received, Zuko had his far more compared to Kuzco since ATLA is a 3-season series and The Emperor's New Groove is a 90 minute movie. Kuzco's arc was focused on him going through a journey of humility for being an entitled asshole his whole life. Meanwhile Zuko's redemption arc is one filled with more depth, with him realizing that appeasing his abusive father doesn't fulfill him and discovers who he truly wants to be and realizing that he In short, you could say that Kuzco walked so Zuko could run.
@@goldentoparican788 Here's where I'm confused, though. Zuko isn't a Disney character, he's a nickelodeon character. How could he be the first Disney character to have a redemption arc like this?
I think the appeal of Dipper with Pacifica speaks to a reaction against the pre-determined love scenario and more to something closer to real life: someone whom you might consider a random person in your life eventually turns out to be compatible with you romantically, and none of it was planned. Like in a lot of fan-preferred couples like Danny Phantom and Valerie Grey or Zuko and Katara, it's all about something you did not expect, and it turns out all the more beautifully. Reminds me of this quote from Helga back in that Valetine's episode of Hey Arnold: "Maybe the girl for you is someone you didn't expect. After all, the most beautiful gift can come in the plainest box."
Wow, this actually might explain why I tend to ship primary protagonists with "secondary" characters and why I kinda roll my eyes whenever the "main couple" get together.
@@Takejiro24 I actually don't mind the "main ship getting together" trope, if the main pair is likable and if they have good chemistry ( and if they are close in age ) then I would ship it. I also don't mind shipping main characters and secondary characters, because in some cases they do work better than the main ship
@@Takejiro24 A lot of love interests are written poorly because they're treated as a love interest first and a character second so it feels less organic.
Zutara is overrated. Kataang is WAY better, in my opinion. I am prepared for the inevitable _shitstorm_ of sad, _whiny, entitled BRATS_ of Zutara shippers toxically hating on me that will inevitably follow me posting this comment. Please do note Zutara shippers, though, that I don't give a single flying _fuck._ 😈.
I don't think Anastasia gets progressively prettier? She has the same design all the way through. It's probably just that she starts genuinely smiling. I just think it's important to acknowledge that a kinder personality and expression can make someone look 'prettier' both in animation and real life.
I don't feel comfortable saying it's because of new animation or because they wanted to make it prettier but at the very least in the sequels keep this slightly less disproportionately gangly
@@noremac7216 I think it also comes through the expressions. Anastasia in the OG Cinderella had really exaggerating facial expressions (as did Drusilla). Lines that extended around her mouth and nose, especially, making smiles into grimacing sneers. In the sequels the designs look a bit smoother and her expressions are cleaner and less mean-looking all around. It does make her a bit prettier, imo, but they didn't overhaul her design by any means.
IDK, at one point Cinderella literally just pushes her cheeks in so she looks better (it's an incredibly visual thing, and hard to explain in words) and then I guess she just flexes her face like that for the rest of the movie? It's a very slight change, but it is a noticeable one.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that Pacifica was just redeemed because she has trauma Firstly because she didn’t really do anything wrong, her greatest crime is being kind of a bitch but how many teens is that true for? And secondly because they show the humanity of her and that she’s just a product of her environment who is willing to grow and change before the episode where the ship is introduced
@@Пинагод Yeah I didn't argue with this part! A person can be redeemed even if they don't have trauma. A person can not be redeemed even if they have trauma.
yeah, I literally had to stop watching the video because there's no point. That base assumption is just a stupid oversimplification of writing a character. Like bro, her redemption isn't just "because she has trauma". Her trauma is the catalyst of her poor behaviors because her poor behaviors are born from her shitty upbringing. Her upbringing/trauma EXPLAINS her behaviors. Her "redemption"(if you can call it that) is called character development. Like a 12yo isn't in the starting end of puberty and it's totally feasible for her to grow as a person over the course of a story. And I wouldn't even say she was redeemed, she improved and is trying to be better.
Tbh Pacifica is HOW entitlment works...people aren't BORN snobbish or entitled or bad. It's how they're raised makes what they eventually can become...like example...enabling parents who for many reasons do not give child any consequences. Parents who cover up their children's lies and bad behaviour(to save face very often) and thus teach them anything goes. And unless those people have others around them or later in life decide to change bc they finally see the error of their ways...they are at high risk of becoming entitled, spoiled and cruel to others. Pacifica was lucky enough to interact with Dipper and Mabel and others and have someone in her life call her out. also what makes people forgive her more is that...she's still a child. She's not the bully or villian who USED to have a bad childhood but is now full grown adult who is responsible for their own choices and CAN go to therapy themsevles and change. She's a child, that still lives with her parents and doesn't have anywhere else to go. She's essentially TRAPPED in an abusive enviorment.
Its funny because Pacifica is what made me realized I was a bad person when I was younger. I was a bully, I was self centered, and I hurt people just because I was hurt. Of course I didn't realize it, but when I watching Gravity Falls and saw how they showed Pacifica's home life. I realized how similar we were and it made me realize that I wasn't a good person... and that my parents weren't exactly being the best of parents. But she also showed me that it was possible to change and be better. It's why the redeeming the rich girl trope is my favorite! It's because I kind lived through that trope.
In an episode featuring an axe stuck on a ghost's skull and blood dripping from stuffed animal heads' mouths, the bell used to rein Pacifica in whenever she gets "out of line" comes off as the creepiest element around. Watching an action that was meant for dogs used on a child by her own parents is Fridge Horror at its finest.
Part of why Pacifica works as a character is a few reasons 1. While she was antagonistic, outside of being stereotypically mean and rude to people, she never did anything especially harmful and as we see later in the Northwest Manor Mystery, is genuinely horrified at not only the things her own Father does but the terrible things her ancestors did to get to where they are 2. Her redemption isn't immediate, it takes time, first she's abrasive and rude, then as Dipper and Mabel get to know her during the Mini Golf episode they see she is capable of being humble and cooperative. And then later during the Manor episode when Pacifica is given the choice to either help Dipper and save people or simply take the easy route with her family, she takes the high ground and makes the right choice. 3. Part of the reason people like her with Dipper is because they work well off each other. Dipper isn't easily impressed by wealth or material possessions, thus she can't bribe or buy him out and she's so blunt and honest she'll say to his face when he's doing something stupid. They work well together and have legit chemsitry...also they are the same age so it doesn't raise red flags like Wendy would. 4. The Trauma itself wasn't the redemption itself, the Mini Golf episode showed she had good qualities, the Trauma episode just helped explain both why she acted so hostile in the past and also why she might be willing to act differently compared to her parents, because that behavior was essentially forced on her.
also, as far as dipcifica, they both do not feel the need to impress each other or be someone theyre not. pacifica doesnt have to act like a rich snob because dipper couldnt care less about how powerful her family is, and dipper doesnt have to impress her, because shes the same age as him and doesnt need to be impressed. they can just be themselves around each other, which makes their interactions feel WAY less annoying and more genuine and sweet, which is a big contrast to wendy and dipper. it took exactly one episode (you know which one lol) to convince me on them because they interacted with each other like real people, not like a kid trying to suck up to a cardboard cut out of a "cool girl."
“isn’t this cheating?” “Pacifica is rich Mable, she’s cheating in LIFE.” -Dipper *insert year* Quick edit: 2010 is the year thank you to the person In the replies.
I’d say Pacifica works because she makes a couple of things more interesting. Dipper’s love arc becomes interesting with the idea of him getting with someone he both didn’t think he could get and didn’t think he would want and Pacifica’s rivalry with Mabel becomes more interesting with the idea of them becoming sisters-in-law. Not to mention redeemed Pacifica comes off as more useful narratively than irredeemable Pacifica.
Glad I’m not the only one sick and tired of ppl using Zuko’s arc as the “baseline” of redemption arcs. Every writer/show creator’s gonna do redemptions differently, and it’s possible to love/admire more than one arc across multiple shows.
Here’s the one thing they all miss out; Zuko was never fully evil. It was more of a story about how he didn’t need to regain his honour because he was the one of the only people in the fire nation who had it. Season 2 is him seeing the extent of the damage the 100 years war his family perpetuated has done to the world and that, whilst he didn’t start the fire, he needs to put it out. Frankly, most of his crimes were following orders and fighting the main characters. And that’s two problems with villains like Baron Draxum, the Diamonds and Kylo Ren. They are the ones who started and perpetuated the fires, they rarely ever choose to do better and, whilst they are very personal villains to the heroes, they’re also big to others outside the main cast. I know that’s a weird one but the main characters forgiving/putting up with the villains whilst people outside the inner circle still suffer is rather nasty.
@@christopherbennett5858 Let's also add to the fact that we frequently see sparks of goodness in Zuko even in the earlier seasons that let us know he's better than is initially shown. His father and sister are comically evil. Azula is crazy and takes delight in watching others suffer. We see how she treats even her own best friends. Before we ever see Ozai we know he's bad news, this is a man who intentionally left a burn mark on his own son's face and sent him as far away as possible on a mission he never thought he was going to succeed. Everyone thought the avatar was gone, this was him telling Zuko "Just die already". But even in his first introduction we see that Zuko wasn't sadistic. Once he had Aang he agreed to leave the Water tribe alone, he didn't start a massacre, he just wanted the avatar and nothing more. He apologized to his crew members for taking them for granted and he would occasionally get annoyed with his uncle but would go out of his way to save him by himself. Zuko started as a jerk but he wasn't evil.
I feel like bringing up Emperor's New Groove into this topic. Kuzco was the embodiment of mean rich kid who gets redeemed in the end. But he didn't need any sad childhood backstory to achieve said redemption. He was just an entitled brat who got kicked out of his pedestal and for the first time in his life had to feel as powerless as those he considered beneath him, so he decided to learn to be more down to earth and appreciate humility Any semblance of tragic backstory is deemed irrelevant to the plot of the movie due to it being a comedy and is only indireclty shown so one can watch the movie without ever really having to think about it (the whole having no family and the implication no one really cared enough about him to teach him right or wrong before meeting Pacha and stuff)
I feel as though it is less invalidity and moreso "not an excuse, because it is the issue". There was no one to tell him to back off, because he was the one to tell other people that. Sometimes someone just needs a slap in the face to get it.
I love how Matt Braly (unapologetic Pacifica fan that he is) used her brief but effective character arc as the foundation for Anne's development throughout _Amphibia._ Many will argue that Sasha is the Pacifica of that show (which she does share some similarities with besides the blonde hair) but her manipulative tendencies and need to control the direction of her friendships make her more akin to Preston Northwest and his abusive means of controlling his daughter and everyone he views as beneath him. Anne, despite coming from a more loving home life and not being as antagonistic, shares more of Pacifica's unhealthy traits early in the series. She's selfish, argumentative against others who challenge her beliefs, heavily resistant to change, and very submissive to those she views as above her. Just as "Northwest Mansion Mystery" rocked Pacifica's world views, _Amphibia_ did the same for Anne with far more depth. Stripped of her old comforts and securities, she begins actively steering her life to become a version of herself that she can look in the mirror and love what she's become. Sometimes that involved being emotionally vulnerable and open to supporting others' dreams, sometimes it meant taking a stand against a friend when its clear they didn't have her well-being in mind. While it may be fan speculation (as well as a big part of most great _Gravity Falls_ fanfics and art pieces) Pacifica's future character growth likely would have similarities with Anne's journey. By the end of season two her family had lost most of their wealth and status, but she was still happy to attend Dipper and Mabel's birthday parties with gifts she knew held personal value to them. Its easy to imagine this trend gradually continuing with her branching out to others outside her parents' control and working to distance herself further from her family legacy. That, and given the Caesar Cipher in "Wax Museum," probably growing so close to Dipper that she ends up marrying into the Pines family. Because Matt Braly is truly the patron saint of r/Dipcifica. Afmzfcfzx 4 ivcb!
The reason it’s ok to see her as redeemed is because she’s heavily implied to be breaking a cycle. She literally stops the bullshit her family have held in place for years and wants to change, be herself, be a kid and go against the toxic everything her parents are and represent. We never see her past this point in her life really, but in Weirdmageddon she opposes the Sal her dad tries to make with Bill, which is at least something. She’s taking strides and getting out of that abusive and toxic mindset her parents gave her
I just wish that we got to see more of Pacifica after the Northwest episode. She was starting to get really interesting, then she was basically ignored until some scenes in weirdmaggedon.
To be fair,i think all the redemption storylines are half subverting the mean girl trope , and half a refusal to dismiss children as rotten and unable to get better and point out that most of their bad behavior is due to poor parenting
16:10 maybe because deep down we all wish our childhood bullies realised how terrible people they were, stopped being terrible people, made amends and sought forgiveness from the people they hurt?
Monster High did this with Cleo De Nile, back in the early 2010's. Mean rich girl, brat around the school. Then you meet her sister and dad who basically verbally abuse her on the daily and tell her she's garbage.
It's sad that pacifica development didn't fully happen because they had to introduce ford and make him a main character for the shows end, so ep with her got cancelled and she even was supposed to be in roadside attraction would've made the plot different. They did somewhat carry on the development in lost legends face off
Ok but Anastasia didn't "get prettier" she actually didn't have her design changed at all which was such a nice touch, she only became more honest and kind! Which was all she ever needed to find love. Such a nice simple message
My girlfriend is a rich girl who was brought up as a princess living in Beverley Hills. Her parents are judgemental and treat poor people as if they're less than human. She told me that she used to share her parents' beliefs when she was a child; thinking she was better than other people. But now she is a better person, and sees everyone as equals. She is now embarrassed by, and ashamed of, the person she used to be. Though to me, it wasn't her fault. Her parents brought her up that way. They are grown adults, and they are still like that. She had the strength and maturity to grow beyond those beliefs, and she wants to continue to be a better person, so she has nothing to be ashamed of. Ironically, I have always loved Pacifica, and other characters who fit this trope, before ever meeting my girlfriend in the first place.
I hate how she stopped existing after she was developed. MLP did the same thing with Diamond Tiara. We never get see redeemed bullies just being casual reoccurring characters.
When The Ghost and Molly Mcgee did this with Andrea, I was threw with this trope. I like Andrea as a character since she's not overly mean and didn't made it her life goal to hurt the main character, but the show didn't has to really redeem her. Esphecially considering since some of the fans forgot she basically made Libby an about cast for a portion of her school life and basically doing the same for Molly( Didn't help that the show play it for laughs)
@@AppleCinderr They didn't keep her as a villain because Bill acknowledged that Andrea being a simple antagonist is boring and he's absolutely right to have that mindset, one note Queen Bees like Chloe from Miraculous are static and only exists to prop up the Protagonist instead of having any real agency except for how they oppose the protagonist.
@@47ratsinahoodie Yeah it sucked because she had potential but then they discarded it, and now she's just there now antagonizing the heroes and there's no need to pay attention to her because there's nothing to go and do with her.
Everyone always pointing out amity, Pacifica, and Sasha for this trope, but no one gives respect to the og QUEEN Heather for starting this trope and arguably doing it the best.
I don't think it's just an issue with Disney, but with fandoms and writing in general, So many stories paint out rich brats as kids who went through trauma, when really that's not entirely true. Sometimes they're just rich brats because their parents let them do whatever they want, whenever they want. Also, fandoms seem to really be okay with saying someone's redeemed just because we see that they went through trauma despite all the bad things they've done. (Wanda, Draco, Snape etc.)
Well they are and they aren't my mom taught high school and what she saw was Ritch brats were allowed to do what they wanted but their parents were emotionally neglectful didn't know anything about what their kids were up to so it's usually a need for attention,no boundaries introduced. Some of that can lead to trauma and the really ritch kids sometimes especially the boys really do have these crushing expectations to take over the family legacy accompanied by an arranged marriage like the ex of someone I knew.
If I am being honest, Dipper and Pacifica being shipped together may have been due to the one episode in Northwest manor, but their relationship is partially because of Mabel's rivalry with Pacifica, which was shown from time to time in season 1. Dipper clearly disliked Pacifica mainly because of how she treated his sister Mabel. Pacifica while clearly shown to be bad to Mabel, she's even shown some signs of envying Mabel, particularly the episode that introduced the Northwest cover up. Pacifica goes through most of her development in season 2, while becoming a better person due to the Pines twins. First through Mabel, who starts to end their rivalry. Then through Dipper, who shares positive chemistry with Pacifica when they actually spend time and get to know each other. Even though they don't get together by the end of the series, which I feel is a good thing for their relationship at the moment, Dipper and Pacifica do have a positive connection with each other, and there's a possibility that they could get together in the future. Side note: I like Sasha Waybright's development throughout Amphibia. It is implied that Sasha being manipulative and controlling is due to her having divorced parents. Often in real life and in media, when someone (particularly a child) is put into a situation outside their control, they tend to take control over situations that they think they can control, especially if it matters to them. That definitely sounds like Sasha's situation. It doesn't excuse the bad things she did, but it explains it. Sasha definitely had to take responsibility for her bad decisions, while also dealing with the consequences, such as her scar from Anne, losing her friendship with Percy and Braddock, losing Anne's trust and friendship for a time, and her part in Andrias getting the music box. I do think that Sasha did work hard to make up for the mistakes she made, and I was glad that she, Anne, and Marcy were able to save their friendship in the end.
Honestly given the stepmother in the grimms version pressured her own daughters to cut their own feet. I'm not so sure Cinderella was the only badly treated one.
Although she's not Disney but instead Cartoon Network, Kimmy from 2010's Sym-bionic Titan is also a pretty interesting example of this trope as well. She was the mean girl head cheerleader trope we all know to hell and back, but through the small amount of episodes of the show we did get, she was earned enough depth and insight to make her one of the best characters of the show. We got to see how she views HERSELF through the trope she lives through and that she genuinely falls for "a nerd" that believes 100% she can be more than what people expect her to be. She's not the most revolutionary character to do this sort of trope, but she's always the first example I can think of for it (and it sucks she's only ever going to be remembered on the internet for that one dancing scene).
A good show that was cut short, I swear CN has something against giant robot cartoons... And I agree 100% on regards to Kimmy, really loved how she went from a generic by-the-numbers mean girl seen a thousand times, to a real person wanting to better herself. It saddens me how she's never brought up in conversations aside from the infamous twerk scene.
I think the ship was more a cherry ontop kind of thing for me when it comes to Pacifica. I definitely enjoyed her development more then I did the ship between her and Dipper. But isn't that what a Ship is for? I mean, we literally have people just talking to eachother for a scene and suddenly people are drawing ship art and writing about them. So I guess that's the bases for a ship now adays? I'm just glad they got more development rather then them just... talking to eachother.
Chloe from Miraculous is another current example (although not from disney) her slow transition from minor antagonistic to side protagonist has been so enjoyable to watch. They truly took the time to teach her, not one, but several hard lessons about the consequences of treating others horribly.
Eh I'd say it's from Disney now, given they have a hand in producing the show. Also, y'know, them seemingly taking that transition and then 180-ing it again, although we'll have to see what happens post-Astruc working on the show.
And yet, if it wasn't for Asstruc's hate boner for a fictional character that he created that led him to deliberately destroy Chloe's development, she'd could've been the best written side character on the show.
Well, I would even say that Chloe oscillating between petty, likable and borderline villainous makes her kinda feel more realistic. Although we all know it's (unsurprisingly) just bad writing and failed attempt to downplay a cliche
She doesn't need redemption, her worst crime is being somewhat unpleasant. She's a kid and she is the way she is because of her parents. The point of her character was that you shouldn't judge a kid for how they are as harshly as if they were an adult, and it seems that you didn't get it.
There definitely is a “she’s the real victim here. She’s traumatized,” obsession with blonde rich girls in fiction. Regina George, Sharpay Evans, Draco Malfoy. But I see it more from fandoms than authors. But Pacifica’s case, she had to earn it more than these other characters. Dipper doesn’t trust her, is upfront about his dislike of her cruelty and is unforgiving until she shows a kinder, more vulnerable and sincere side. There definitely should have been an “I’m sorry for how I treated you scene with Mabel.” But she’s also made aware of her family’s cruel legacy, processes her role in it, and chooses to change for the better.
Don't forget Elodie from OK K.O! Although she's more on the category of Sasha as she also didn't have any abusive parents, either, she's just more absorbed in her popularity. Enid softened her down a lot in the P.O.I.N.T Prep arc, and even gets to share her love of Chip Damage with K.O as well. And yes, it's a Cartoon Network example, but she kinda fits the bill, too.
I find it interesting that in Elodie's case she was absorbed by the popularity a lot until Enid kicked her ass but at the end of that episode it showed that Elodie did still care about Enid but it's possible THEN the idea that she was being a jerk was being planted. During the P.O.I.N.T. Prep Arc, she's still absorbed but didn't let it get in the way during when Enid's life was in danger, apologized for her actions and then started to be on friendly terms again, even if it was at risk for her good grades after looking hella sus about going out during the sleeping hours at the school (but was still rewarded of a good grade for doing the right thing).
I wouldn't say she was redeemed, more along the lines she got development(which the finale did roll back most of, but she got it) plus, while I do ship them, and its largely because they're cute together(which they are, try to deny that), a smaller part is that is the fact it was her, or Candy as even Grenda finds someone before endgame.
15:44 Actually I would have liked if that's how the show went. Having the frogs not trusting Sasha but only allying with her because they have no choice. But they slowly start to trust her as they work together. There was even a fanfic in which Wartwoood was attacked by evil Marsy and when she saw that Sasha is protecting the frogs, Marsy taunted her saying: "After all They are just dumb frogs, right? They don't matter." Everyone remembered Sasha's words, but she responded with "You are wrong! And so was I when I said that!" This would have worked a lot better!
But there's no possible way Darcy or Andrias could've known about that. What happened at Toad Tower was completely isolated, and the only reaction Andrias had to it was sending Yuunan to kill Grime because he failed his job (and post was destroyed). So yeah, it’s a neat idea on paper, but it's impossible. A better concept would be to have Darcy taunt Sasha about if she just abandonded her morals and doubled down on her controlling tendencies during True Colors and didn't hold back against Anne, she could've stopped the Core's plans AND Marcy's betrayal before they even happened. Then Sasha counters by asking what the point of having that power would be if it's so empty.
Heh, I remember in one of Alex Hirsh QnA, he was suprised that people "like" Pacifica! Like she was made to be the anti Mabel and wasn't intended to be liked in the first place!
Out of all these characters, i think Sasha is the most interesting. Not because her redemption was the best because it could have been better. But the fact that she doesn't have any obvious trauma to excuse her actions just makes it interesting because it's true, you don't need a traumatic background to be a bad person. Some people are just bad - maybe they were influenced by friends, or they thought being mean could make them popular. There can be a reason but it doesn't have to be trauma. And while characters like Amity and Pacifica are more forgivable because they were mostly just bullies, characters like Catra are just irredeemable villains who got redeemed badly. I really want to see more redeemable antagonists who are just bad. Without trauma, without an abusive family or dead parents or whatever. Because you don't need a reason to be bad and you don't need an excuse to better yourself. You can have a character who is mean or hurtful because of unrelated reasons, and still show them recognizing their mistakes and growing as people. There are examples of this in protagonists or side characters, like Sokka for example, but very rarely in antagonists / villains. For a villain to be redeemable, they have to be sympathetic i.e. they need a tragic backstory as to why they became such a monster. As this will suddenly excuse the hundreds of war crimes they've committed. I just want to see a redeemable villain with no excuse for a change. And for the characters who _do_ have trauma, i want to see people still hold them accountable. One of the million reasons why Zuko's redemption is so amazing is because they actually bring up this point. Toph mentions that he has a messed up family and maybe that's the reason, to which the others say that it's still not an excuse, or something along those lines. This is needed, because trauma or abuse isn't an excuse to hurt innocent people. It's a reason but you can't excuse a person's wrongdoings just because they're traumatized. Also another thing, not all antagonists have to be redeemed. Not even the sympathetic ones. Azula is an example of this where she's very obviously just a traumatized child, but she still crossed the line of being redeemable. Similarly, Simon from book 3 of Infinity Train is also a sympathetic character who gets a corruption arc instead of a redemption, and slowly turns more and more irredeemable until he is killed off in the end. These characters are still so interesting because we sympathize with them, but the story still makes it clear that their actions cannot be excused or forgiven.
Personally I’m more addicted to the Catra like Characters cause at least they make the show they’re in entertaining as an antagonist. And they’re eventual redemption of their characters more worth it. While Sasha’s redemption arc could have been better, it’s as you said the most interesting and her character development dives deeper to me, feels MUCH more raw and deep to me than Amity or Pacifica to me thanks to Amphibia’s story telling, at least fanfiction can do for Sasha’s redemption fully what Canon didn’t fulfill for everyone.
@@toadlord8594 Catra was a great antagonist but her redemption was awful. I truly liked her as a villain but my dislike towards her comes from how badly they messed up her character arc and the story as a whole. Her redemption did not feel deserved because of how easily everyone forgave her. And yes, i agree about Sasha. While her redemption arc was rushed, it wasn't bad. And definitely not as terrible as Catra's. Her character as a whole was very interesting and even though she got forgiven quickly, it felt a bit more deserved because we saw how she actually put in effort to be a better person.
@@skyhideaway okay then Please tell me, what steps/advice would be used for making characters like Catra (Sasha) more redeemable in peoples eyes? What makes the best female Antagonist Villain to Hero story great? Cause all I can think of is having them more nervous/scared to fighting against the girl(s) they loved deep inside. Flashback origins of their bad families/parental figures. Earlier start on redemption arc after Season one at their worst. I mean it’s possible to turn characters who started out as very unlikable but throughout the angst and journey find themselves and genuinely want to become better people. I believe that it’s a MUCH more inspiring redemption than someone who started out with goodness at the first episode but for some reason these kinds of redemptions are always looked down. So what are the proper steps to rewriting it better properly cause I’d LOVE for the day these kinds of redemption arcs done properly right.
@@toadlord8594 I'll start with Catra because she had the worst redemption. Either of the points that i mention alone could drastically improve her redemption (imo). 1. Have her fight Adora because she's ordered to, rather than because she's jealous / bitter that Adora left her. This way, she would be holding back a little, like you mentioned. (I mean, if Catra did "love" Adora, like she said, she would have held back anyway) 2. Not have her open the portal and risk wiping out the entire planet (and killing Queen Angela). Fighting an enemy is one thing, threatening mass genocide (and getting away with it) is another. That part alone made her irredeemable. 3. If the writers wanted to keep these parts and still redeem Catra, I'd say there are more ways to redeem a villain than to have them join the heroes. People usually use Zuko as the blueprint, which is why most redeemed villains / antagonists end up befriending the heroes. But that's not the only way to write a redemption bc an act of redemption is basically a person improving themselves and writing their wrongs; this can be done without the help or forgiveness of the heroes. In Catra's case, the best redemption would be for her to leave the Horde at some point, apologize to Adora and the others, Adora may or may not forgive her but either way, Catra decides to take a journey to find herself. She wishes Adora good luck or whatever, and ends things on relatively good terms. She can go to a suitable place (like the Crimson Waste, where she was happy) and build a new life _without_ all the people she abused. She can build new, healthier relationships and heal from her trauma without having it negatively affect anyone else. 4. Or at the very least, have people be more wary of her or even straight up hostile towards her after she is rescued from Horde Prime. Don't have characters go "omg enemy" only for Adora to say she's on their side, and they're like "okay cool, we love her now". Especially since the princesses got so mad at Entrapta for being emotionally manipulated by Catra and turned against them. Bonus: don't make Catra _still_ act like an absolute asshole to Adora if we're supposed to be liking her now. As for Sasha, my only complaint was that her redemption wasn't fleshed out and she got forgiven too quickly, because there was a bigger, common enemy. So the only thing I'd change there is that some of the filler episodes in S3 are swapped out for more focus on Sasha, and maybe Anne and the Plantars could be a bit more suspicious about her at first before realizing that she has actually changed for the better.
Yeah I realize that I have a favorite for the Redeeming Mean Girl" as well. There's always something more engaging and much more satisfying about watching this character who starts off as completly awful and throughout the angst and journey unto eventually realizing "oh no, I"M THE ASSHOLE" and there's the extra characterization added into i tthat makes me want to cry. I end up feeling like a proud father watching their terrible daughter (or son) start to finally comes to turn that they've been an annoying jackass for the while and then genuinely vow to change their ways into being better people that the main character would like to be actual friends and turn from villainy to hero ( and in fanon case, Boy/Girl friends) with that just feels... earned after said season of putting the work in to being better. More interesting than watching the main character's development and hero angst cause well they're the protagonist most of the time they're suppose to start off decent/likable enough but it always makes them Give me episodes with characters like Amity, Sasha, and even Andrea being the "protagonist" of said episode and I'll be all over that. Side note: While Amity's arc was given more time to breath and overall the most organic, I'm personally was more addicted to Sasha Waybright's development and her change throughout Amphibia pulls my heart strings a lot more.
I reckon a part of the Zuko redemption arc that’s not brought up as much when invoking it is using a contrast character, an Azula figure who does not get redeemed. The character who could have undergone self-reflection but due to circumstances like the opportunities not opening up or being under a bad influence, didn’t and keeps trying to tempt the Zuko figure back to the dark side. The Disney examples don’t tend to use this. Cinderella does, where Drizella staying under Tremaine’s thumb contrasts with Anastasia looking for her own self-worth and being around people who encourage this. Yet Gravity Falls doesn’t, the closest example being Pacifica’s parents but it’s usually a peer, and Owl House doesn’t have a foil for Amity in this department. Indeed, her siblings long ago knew their parents wouldn’t recognise them for anything except discipline. For someone to be redeemed it works better when there’s someone who doesn’t want to be redeemed.
What's ironic is that I was actually shipping these two even before Northwest Mansion mystery, the only episode to star them both without someone else also playing a heavy role in their story, even aired, and that's all because of their little moments they've had in the series during her rivalry with his sister
yep, as soon as i saw her i immediately know... she will be Dipper's love interest... to be fair i was wrong since they never get together. the funny thing is when my friends and i watched The Owl House ( we are gravity falls fans), as soon as we saw Amity we immediately go "she will be Pacifica"... we actually called Amity "Green Pacifica" for a while lmao.... lol Amity x Luz also like Diana x Akko from Anime called Little Witch Academia, we used to call Diana as "Witch Pacifica", sometimes my friend called Amity as "Disney Diana" ....
18:36 I think you hit it right on the head with that line. I only discovered this show near the end of highschool when I was mature enough to feel shame for a lot of the things I used to say and believe. And the idea of recognizing what makes you a bad person and trying to be better kept me from continuing some bad patterns
I absolutely love this trope because (to me at least) its best way for character development. Someone who never got to learn what morality was supposed to be and was pretty much conditionned to be that way on top of being handed all the thing they wanted without real struggle. Its fun to see them realise how fucked their life were and try to adapt.
you don't understand how much i appreciate this video. i have had numerous people in my mentions defending rich white girls for being horrible people. im over.
@@xxmemestar69xx82 I don't know why you are complaining. Yes, most rich girls are white, but this means that their rich WHITE parents are torturing them. Aren't you happy that rich white people are presented as monsters. Besides they can't make people of color bad because everyone would say it's racism.
I think Pacifica got kind of a half-baked redemption arc tbh. She gets around to the point where Amity was circa lost in language and then they kind of, just, stop. Her dad has to force her to stoop so low as conversing with a homeless person. And Sasha? I could write a dissertation some problems I had with that. But yeah, 'rich and spoiled' is bad enough to lead a Mean Girls clique, comes with parental expectation baggage so that it's not 'really' the daughter's fault, but also not evil enough that a redemption arc feels undeserved. Pretty easy target to fill the Piccolo/Zuko slot in a party.
Dipper x Pacifica is cannon. In “Lost Legends” the lost episodes of the show, one of the episodes follow dipper and Pacifica, at the end Pacifica text. ‘Dipper’ asking him to forgot about the hug they shared earlier, Mabel text back “OOOOOO do you have a crush!” And Pacifica denies it until Mabel can break it out of her
An example from anime/manga would be Bakugou Katsuki of My Hero Academia, a male example. Started off as a major bully character (his infamous swan dive' suicide comment still a scar from chapter one) who told the main character (Deku) to kill himself. But after getting reality checks throughout the first 3 seasons, he's become the number one popular character in the series in every popularity poll. He's got a mountain size amount of fans that freaking worship the guy in the United States and Japan!
i mean if we are talking about anime... there are plenty lmao... like the famous one is "A Silent Voice" or.... you know... *the entirety of dragon ball* lmao
@@yohanesbobbysanjaya3541 Yeah thanks for bringing that Up, Dragon Ball most of the Z Warriors were People who Literally tried or were related in some way to killling Goku once before, (Piccolo and Vegeta) And Android 18 and 17. Lmao
Alex Hirsch and his directors cut podcast literally talked about how he wanted to make her redeemed. He’s not a product of Disney. He just wanted to do something creative with the character.
I beleve there is 3 main reasons they use this archetype arc: 1- it is easy to made, an arrogant and abuse parents, a child tryng to please them 2- it is working, so why stop? 3- they want you to have sympathy for a rich person Besides his archetype, this character never is poor, black or something like that, they are always one "protagonist like" character
Everyone loves redemption arcs, and redeeming bullies avoids its worst pitfalls: "redeeming" the irredeemable. Catra and Sasha are great characters, but we can all admit after the many people they've almost killed, there should've been more time of them earning forgiveness. Redeeming a bully is time efficient in a medium time is often constricted.
The only person Sasha tried to kill was Hop Pop and (briefly) Sprig. She more than made up for that when she saved their lives _3 times_ during the Third Temple.
The only characters she’d tried to kill was Hop Pop (cause of the execution order ) and Sprigg for a brief moment. Season two she pretty much reduced to having a rivalry with Sprigg, she never obsesses into actual malice with the Plantars or anyone really other than Andrias. She’s a jerk but she’s not heartless.
Dude it’s so nice to see someone mention how fucked up the bell was. I’ve seen some people mention it lightly, but still question why she couldn’t just say no to her parents. Bc it’s just…soooooo much worse than just having overbearing parents
I've always been a sucker for characters like her who believe in a lie, and eventually have to confront it. Vegeta has been one of my favorite for using, for what is called sometimes, "The Lie" and going through character arcs that develops them, if not outright changing them. I would have liked some more from her, but her confrontation with history and relation to her family was amazing already.
@@zosiazaremba7479 True, it was used really well as it deals with nature and nurture (if I remember correctly). I do like Vegeta a bit more as its something that he continues to struggle with even in Super.
this was always my favorite possible ship from this show. for many of the reasons pointed out here... but also because of the fact that this episode actually made me feel like they have chemistry. they play off each other, they make each other better, and I really love their moments also "you're the worst" made me laugh so hard when it happened
She was also like… yk a child, if she were an adult that’d be different But she’s at most *twelve*, at 12, I don’t think it’s really about being “redeemed” so much as about growing outside of the small worldview somebody would have with such little experience
I haven’t seen anyone talk about how calling it “Disney’s obsession” is disingenuous to the different creators’ ideas for the characters. It’s more of a coincidence that they all appear on under the same studio, because most likely the producers wrote the characters like that in order to tell the story they wanted rather than to “appease the studio”. It’s not Disney’s problem, there are tons of characters like that which aren’t on Disney channel. sorry for bein’ a little nitpicky, i get the point of the vid tho!
As a self-proclaimed simp for the redeemed prince/princess type character, it's everything you said it was, but part of it is also that when the spoiled shitheads do truly redeem themselves, you can feel the weight of regret in everything they do with well(enough) written ones and it just makes the cool things thing might end up doing, thing much cooler because you ABSOLUTELY FEEL IT.
I like redemption Arcs for characters a whole lot. But I like it more when there is substance to the redemption. Like Zuko's has a whole lot of substance to it and that's why I like it, it feels earned to me. We see that even when he's the villain he's not going that extra mile to be cruel or ruthless like his sister or father and often times when he does act terrible it's typically for his father's approval which feeds into that whole idea of childhood trauma. Gajeel from Fairytail, he's my favorite character, but when he's introduced he is very clearly a villain and a fairly brutal one at that. But they also make it clear that when he's brought back into the show that he's not just going to be accepted, everyone else is scared of and/or hostile towards him. They make it clear he's not just going to be forgiven and they introduce these arcs of him putting in the extra work to be part of the guild from being a double agent, to protecting Levy, to saving the guild. And some "redemption arcs" admittedly feel lackluster to me or more forced. Because I'm going to be honest, I am still pretty pissed off at Catra and I still very much don't like Bakugou or his "redemption". Because I will acknowledge Catra has trauma but she also has done a ton of terrible stuff even to the people who were on her side like Hordak. And Bakugou doesn't really have that excuse as he was just always a jerk and a narcissist, even his parents were sick of his shit.
I attended external class in my college about film and story telling, and one day my teacher taught us about "Zuko vs Eren" I wont talk about zuko lol the video already stated everything... i intrigued when my teacher talked about Eren "Anti-Redemption" or as he said "the point of no return" ... it is interesting because my teacher dived into the nature of contrast and irony... or as my teacher said "the point of no return is usually happens... when you returned back into a previous pivotal point in story but with contrasting circumstances, oh yeah the irony, that what makes it so damn good" "Eren journey started when he said he will kill all his enemies, "i will kill them all". back then we assumed to be titan, we cheered him through his story, and now the circumstances had been switched.... when Eren became the villain, we prayed for him to change, for him to redeem himself... and when the Rumbling arrived at Marley, eren said the same sentence he said before.. "i will kill them all"... at that moment... you know he wont ever stop, he wont ever be redeemed.. that is the point of no return" "this is the essence of Eren VS Zuko, Zuko redemption arc is about him changing his moral value, about him changing his character, acknowledging his flaw and as the story goes, zuko learned to be a better person... Eren is opposite, his moral never changes, his action is what drives the story, His Character is what drives the plot" "now you understand that Plot and Character always go hand-in-hand, you can make story driven character like Zuko or plot driven character like Eren. i know many engineering student attended this class (yep including me), so i will use equation... Plot is X and Character is Y.. like a math equation Y = X + 1, you have the freedom to pick whether to assign number in X or Y and the other will follows, but you need to remember, keep it consistent.. the formula of your story, the main theme.. should never change" lol i just wanted to share what my teacher taught me because i think its amazing
Well trauma isn't enough to redeem a character, but it is often enough to explain them. The redemtion has to come from what they do to make up for their mistakes.
It's a trend in a lot of shows because it functions off powerful mechanisms like emotional contrast and scarcity principle. You love it when the hard-ass finally lets their guard down to express a bit of tenderness because it's a rare occurrence---and because it's rare, it's incredibly valuable and you might not get many other chances to see it.
I think that part of t he reason why Pacifica gets shipped so much with Dipper is because she is also the only other female character that he shows any real chemistry with. Wendy is always someone Dipper was attracted to but we see her shut that down. We also want Dipper to be happy and successful, which a common trope is having a romantic relationship. Don't get me wrong I don't disagree, these redemption arcs are definitely trendy right now. That being said, in this specific example with Pacifica, besides Wendy the only other choices are Grenda and Candy. Neither of these ladies ever really displayed any real connection or chemistry with Dipper. Thus it concludes that if you don't ship Wendy with Dipper, your only other choice is Pacifica.
I just got done rewatching the series. I loved the dynamic between Dipper and Pacifica in the show. What you didn’t mention is that in the last episode she put a heart on her “I” in Dipper’s letter.
it is my personal opinion that the younger in character is the easier it is to write character development/a redemption arc simply, because naturally as we get older, we change, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worst but all the same we change so the younger the character is the more natural it feels.
Small correction- Disney ripped off Ever After, where one of the sisters is a good person and gets looked down upon by her mother and sister. (It's almost beat from the beat in Anastasia's short story in the second movie and the third). So no, it doesn't come from the Disney sequels from Cinderella. It does come from one of the best live-action Cinderella movies- Ever After which was released back in 1998. And since it's a Fox movie, Disney is keeping it in limbo, because they know it's one of the best and they ripped it off.
Broo, disney didn't do jack, alex hirsch and co made the whole damn show. If you listen to the DVD commentaries, as I have, you can very easily see that the development of Pacifica's character was a natural progression from the audience reaction and the general sentiment in the writing room. Disney funded, and curated the show. All stylistic and aesthetic decisions were given to the writers, storyboarders, animators, and producers, with the only contribution from disney being notes about how you "Can't include 'spin the bottle' in your scripts cause we don't want to give people the impression that it's a 'kissing party'." and junk like that
One of my favorite change of heart characters would be Vegeta. Mans went from greasing whole planets to marrying the orginal main character(Bulma was basically the lead hero in early classic dragon ball) growing a mustache and being a better father then his rival.
One thing that keeps ringing in my head about Pacifica develop, that we really did't have to time to see, because she didn't has more screen time (not saying that that is a mistake or something), is the fact that she decided to change, and she was able to do it with dipper's helps, to do it in front of her parents, but the whole town was use to "mean" Pacifica, everyone else would expect her to be mean. So they never really explore that transition, and not just in a "everyone learn that she's not (that) mean anymore" but "the social pressure to avoid to be like that again". It's easier to be that new person in front of the ones that were there, but once you are throw again to the "you are like this" social pressure, it thend to not show that change (even if it hurts later). I think that was solved (in a way) with the weirdmaggedon, she was one of the (original) keys to save the town. Everyone saw her helping, and eating the same dust as anyone else.
8:37 i’m a hard-core Disney fan so I know that cinderella three a twist in time actually takes place booked for the events of the sequel in a split timeline kind of situation since the movie ends with the reference of the baker from the second movie, Disney has that love for the Multiverse, even with their original stuff before they had their hands on
The mean girl trope can also be attributed to Catra from She-Ra and the princess of power. Catra is basically the main villain in the early seasons. Catra does the things she does because when Adora left, she felt betrayed. It’s shown later on that Catra has HORRIBLE attachment issues, and is constantly trying to prove her worth to the people around her, specifically Hordak because he’s the highest power, but Adora as well. The thing that finally triggers her redemption is when Glimmer is held captive on horde primes ship, and they have a meaningful conversation. I think Scorpia leaving was definitely a crack in her self worth, but that conversation with Glimmer was what really triggered the “Oh shit, I’ve never really done any good in life.” In Catra. Soon after that conversation she saves Glimmer, someone who she highly dislikes through almost the entire show, at seemingly the cost of her own life. There’s more to say but I’m lazy and this comment is long enough. (This is a plea to make videos on She-Ra)
I wish more rich girl characters could be softer almost right out of the gate like Momo Yaoyorozu from My Hero Academia, where she may come from a rich family, but she’s still really kind and supportive and doesn’t want to be known and seen as “the rich girl” and more as her own person.
You’re completely forgetting the comic. There’s another whole story of Dipper and Pacifica working together, where Dipper expresses more empathy towards Pacifica and Pacifica ends up hugging him without trying to bribe him into forgetting, and while Mabel and Shmebulock are shipping them even harder, so it’s not just that one episode. Also, since they don’t get together, I like to think it’s something that would happen in another summer down the road, just like other loose ends in Gravity Falls such as Bill’s return. That gives them time to develop into a healthy couple while also making it feel natural.
You realize in lost legends that while Pacifica was texting Mable that Pacifica didn’t even tell Mable that Pacifica didn’t like Dipper even when Mabel asked Pacifica if she did? Like Pacifica was hiding her feelings. I think Pacifica does like Dipper
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Grab PIA VPN for $2.11/mo + 3 months free
before the deal expires: www.privateinternetaccess.com/SarcasticChorus
Hey PIA is actually one of the only VPNs that started shredding documents when the gov asked for them.
Bruh no one gonna fall for this 💀
I hope your throat feels better :) thank you for making a video, even if you're sick. I love your videos. I have severe depression so watching your videos helps me get by :) I appreciate your hard work, man!
Fun Fact: Anne Boonchuy is based on Pacifica Northwest and Matt Braly’s grandmother
So let’s look at the Gravity Falls ships we’ve covered so far.
Robbry, Wendip, Dipcifica,…
By logical conclusion, the next one will be Pinecest (Dipper x Mabel)
She wasn't exactly "redeemed". She was developed. And that was enough for me, especially with her getting closer to dipper in the episode
Yeah, plus then we got some wholesome moments with her in the comics. That was sweet too
Uh.. English is my second language and it's hard to understand particular words sometimes.. what does it mean that a character is "redeemed"? I know the word redeem but I don't kinda get it in this context.. please help😖😖
@@mikesvetlov6374 that usually means that their personality became better (healthier, less egotistical or toxic)
@@mikesvetlov6374 it’s basically when a character is a terrible person and does awful things, and then that character realizes what they’re a bad person, stops doing bad things and changes for the better.
@@finnhyasebee889 oh, thank you!
I’m seeing a lot of comments that say she wasn’t “redeemed” so much as she simply had a good growth arc. And I completely agree. We only see her for a few episodes but it’s just enough to see her knocked down a couple pegs, realize that her family does actually suck, and have her situation explained. It humanized her instead of making her just the Pretty Rich Mean Girl Punching Bag. There’s just enough to show you there’s more to her than the surface level mean girl trope. Enough to make me cry every single time she doesn’t cave at the end of the ghost episode and pulls the lever. To me that’s one of the most powerful moments in the series, because Pavlovian conditioning like that isn’t an easy thing to disobey. And one of my favorite things about it is that we don’t see her personality do a complete 180° afterward. Idk if anyone has read the Lost Legends comics, but the one that focuses on her and her family problems and her going to Dipper for help really shows that while she’s definitely done some personal work, she also isn’t completely Cured™️ of her family trauma and the way it’s shaped her personality. It’s not a matter of like, her being Bad Pacifica before the ghost hunt and Good Pacifica afterward. She’s still herself, she’s just started that growth process. And I love that about her.
Plus, the story in the lost legends does even more development ( Also the president key actually did something or whatever)
If gravity falls had a season three or four before they ended the show I and 100% sure these two would have dated and she probably would have become one of Mabel’s greatest friends dew to her being at their house very often to hang out with dipper, who knows we could have even gotten and episodes or two of them actually going on a date. It would have impacted the ending even more, they could also give more development to the people who need to stand on the symbols
Agree, it's not full fledged redemption arc but it's step in right direction.And we have start from somewhere
Pavlov actually didn't have anything to do with the whole bell ringing thing. He put holes in dogs' esophaguses and "fed" them while measuring their levels of stomach acid.
@@Flugel_Halogen mabel would be so happy about pacifica being her "sister" 🥰
I know that this are just fictional characters, but i still see them as just little girls. I dont see it as "redemption", i see it as learning experiences for a child.
That's what I'm thinking lol. It's one thing if we're talking about grown adult characters but they're kids, they are a reflection of their homelife that's how kids work.
True, I sometimes forget that these kids are either in their last year of elementary school, or their first year of middle school.
Ikr. I would say that most kids are mean as hell before they learn that words and actions hurt others. But kids learn and grow up and eventually stop being like that. Mostly.
And honestly, that makes a lot of sense. Most of them are children and that fits.
I really like them because they bring out the best in each other. Dipper is confident and funny and Pacifica is more introspectiv. It is a great prospect for a few years later if both can grow as people.
The dynamic between them was really fun to watch, I wish there were more episodes to explore their relationship (not necessarily a romantic relationship).
That's the only reason why I wish Gravity falls had a third season.
@@valentinkambushev4968 I agree, Gravity Falls really needed at least one more season, mainly to develop better Ford and little more Pacifica.
@@gabrielmendonca6853 yeah I wish for that too. But I understand why there isn't season three. This is not an Owl house situation where the network cuts you short. Season one was very hard for Alex to make and he decided that he didn't want to put himself through it two more times. But hey, I have plenty of fanfics and fan art to fill the gap.
@@valentinkambushev4968 Yes, at least his situation is understandable. But it's not like we can't criticize the end result. You're not wrong that we still have fanfics, but it's rare to find a good one.
If I had a nickel for everytime Disney redeemed a blonde rich girl I have a shit ton of nickels
It'd be twice.. Which isn't a lot, but it goes to show the variety in hair colours for these rich girl redemptions.
Name me more than 2 examples, Doof. These are very specific criteria.
What about brunettes? London Tipton might have been one of the best of them
@@gameb9oy Amity's an auburn-brunette, which may also count.
The only rich girl not changed is Chloe bourgeois as of right now
I will say that redemption arcs are hard, having the character to be redeemed be a child from overbearing/abusive parents is more believable than any of the redemptions that have been for actual villain characters with massive bodycounts.
Is there a particular reason they need an arc for it? Like, can't they just try to be better without having to suffer trauma?
@@KevinACarroll1996 character arc does not equals trauma
@@KevinACarroll1996 No, they don't need trauma and not every story does that, but it gives them immediate sympathy points while making perfect sense (living in a family of jerks would easily influence them.) They do need an arc though... Even if they're just a bully who no one else can stand up to, not even their sweet parents, they'd need enough time to show how they bully others, show the dawning realization that what the bully is doing isn't good, have the bully come to terms with this and decide to change, then hopefully show them struggling a bit as they find their way and make up for the past. It doesn't have to take a long time but spreading it out over several episodes or the span of a movie allows for the story to feel more natural than if it happened in 5 minutes (and it would take a really good storyteller to do this in 5 minutes but it's possible.)
Also in this case trauma makes sense because it’s shown in the mini golf episode before that preston and his wife don’t actually care about pacifica, and on top of that preston is just an ass in general so it makes sense he would treat pacifica badly
@@KevinACarroll1996 Simply believability. It gets easier to understand why a person has changed when it is clear that they knew what the issue was. In reality, we often don't see this, but stories have no reason not to include something like that, unless they purposefully want to tie the perspective to the main character directly.
I think people like Pacifica because she admits her mistakes and takes steps to improve herself. She takes control of her own bias and what she can control, and chooses to be better. By the end of Gravity Falls, she's still not a "Good Person" per say... but she's getting better. If the show had some more time and maybe a sequel series, I hope we would have seen her evolve more. But as is... I like where her character went. There's hope for her yet.
Also she and Dipper did have quite good chemistry. They are the type to call each other out and make each other better through tough conversations, blunt truths, and also... just enjoying breaking rules and getting dirty together (like, covered in mud and stuff. They're kids bro.).
By the end of the series and comic, they are no where NEAR ready for dating, but they are both ready to get to know one another...also enemies to lovers is fun!
Yeah, they just did the whole enemies to lovers thing with Luz and Amity, much better than I think the whole Dipcifica thing would have turned out. Namely cos we got to know Amity as a person much sooner, she wasn't a complete jerk the whole time, and became a lot more self aware a lot sooner as well.
@@tristanemery8748 I just pray Amity doesn't become the next "Zuko redemption" as in people in the far future are going to be spoiled and paint that this specific character's style of development as the next high standard that people will be comparing other mean characters journey towards in the far future. In that case scenario I will begin to actively hate it.
In all Honesty we've people can act spoiled when it comes to redemption arcs cause Zuko's was the most iconic one in animation history, and Now years from now Amity's development could probably be treated the same way.
@@toadlord8594 Yeah, I kinda hope that people look back and appreciate her development, but don't hold it in such high esteem as Zuko. He had possibly the best redemption arc in all of animation, as you said. Whereas Amity's, while well executed, was not on the same level as our second favourite "bad-but-sad boy" (sorry, I just prefer hunter lol)
@@tristanemery8748 Yeah i just LOVE Hunter and his evolution throughout the 2nd season was honestly really well done, even more than Amity's in my opinion. He just steals the show for me whenever he's on screen, especially when paired with Luz, Hollow Mind remains as my 2nd favorite episode in the series.
Side note: I personally am more a fan of Sasha's development in Amphibia the best than Amity cause to me Sasha's character development felt more...raw and deeper than Amity in my eyes.
Yes I agree
Yeah, Disney does indeed have a habit of trying to redeem rich antagonistic characters. especially if they are female characters, but they just had to face it that some of them did have redeeming qualities and some of them didn't.
I wish Chloe from miraculous also got something like that
@@meowmeow8457 She did but then the original writer came along and ruined it.
I mean, the writers of many of these shows actively hate disney. Amity's story is actively anti-capitalist (and gay), Pacifica was the first major one, from alex hirsch himself. So... Yeah.
I think it's simply because a spoiled rich girl is easy to dislike but at the end of the day if she's a child, there's a lot to consider where her behaviour may he a result of poor parenting and/or her parents just being bad people in general.
Oh yeah tell me about it! Like Maleficent and Cruella De Vil! Like what the fuck with the latter, her name literally means cuel Devil and yet I know how they explained the origin to her name on her film! Like what's next? An origin movie to Cinderella step mother???
Don't forget the original Rich-Bully-Turned-Good-Guy for the Disney franchise: Emperor Kuzco. He's actually the real first character to do this in all of Disney's history. Everyone cites Zuko but forgets Kuzco. Also, let's ignore The Emperor's New School because it already was stated to not really be canon, anyway.
I mean, do we even have to ignore it anyways? Both the movie and the show deal with the same idea that he isn't a perfect person and never will be, but he's still human. Able to learn and eventually grow up, even if he initially does not recognize his own capabilities or that he sometimes needs a vibe check.
Everyone talks about Zuko more because in terms of development the two characters received, Zuko had his far more compared to Kuzco since ATLA is a 3-season series and The Emperor's New Groove is a 90 minute movie.
Kuzco's arc was focused on him going through a journey of humility for being an entitled asshole his whole life. Meanwhile Zuko's redemption arc is one filled with more depth, with him realizing that appeasing his abusive father doesn't fulfill him and discovers who he truly wants to be and realizing that he
In short, you could say that Kuzco walked so Zuko could run.
Zuko also isn't a part of disney
Zuko? Zuko isn't a Disney character, he's a nickelodeon character
@@goldentoparican788 Here's where I'm confused, though. Zuko isn't a Disney character, he's a nickelodeon character. How could he be the first Disney character to have a redemption arc like this?
I think the appeal of Dipper with Pacifica speaks to a reaction against the pre-determined love scenario and more to something closer to real life: someone whom you might consider a random person in your life eventually turns out to be compatible with you romantically, and none of it was planned. Like in a lot of fan-preferred couples like Danny Phantom and Valerie Grey or Zuko and Katara, it's all about something you did not expect, and it turns out all the more beautifully. Reminds me of this quote from Helga back in that Valetine's episode of Hey Arnold: "Maybe the girl for you is someone you didn't expect. After all, the most beautiful gift can come in the plainest box."
Wow, this actually might explain why I tend to ship primary protagonists with "secondary" characters and why I kinda roll my eyes whenever the "main couple" get together.
That's a really interesting take.
@@Takejiro24 I actually don't mind the "main ship getting together" trope, if the main pair is likable and if they have good chemistry ( and if they are close in age ) then I would ship it.
I also don't mind shipping main characters and secondary characters, because in some cases they do work better than the main ship
@@Takejiro24 A lot of love interests are written poorly because they're treated as a love interest first and a character second so it feels less organic.
Zutara is overrated. Kataang is WAY better, in my opinion. I am prepared for the inevitable _shitstorm_ of sad, _whiny, entitled BRATS_ of Zutara shippers toxically hating on me that will inevitably follow me posting this comment. Please do note Zutara shippers, though, that I don't give a single flying _fuck._ 😈.
I don't think Anastasia gets progressively prettier? She has the same design all the way through. It's probably just that she starts genuinely smiling. I just think it's important to acknowledge that a kinder personality and expression can make someone look 'prettier' both in animation and real life.
I'd say it comes down to the animation quality. There's a MAJOR leap in quality between 1950's and 2000's animation.
I don't feel comfortable saying it's because of new animation or because they wanted to make it prettier but at the very least in the sequels keep this slightly less disproportionately gangly
@@noremac7216 I think it also comes through the expressions. Anastasia in the OG Cinderella had really exaggerating facial expressions (as did Drusilla). Lines that extended around her mouth and nose, especially, making smiles into grimacing sneers. In the sequels the designs look a bit smoother and her expressions are cleaner and less mean-looking all around. It does make her a bit prettier, imo, but they didn't overhaul her design by any means.
IDK, at one point Cinderella literally just pushes her cheeks in so she looks better (it's an incredibly visual thing, and hard to explain in words) and then I guess she just flexes her face like that for the rest of the movie? It's a very slight change, but it is a noticeable one.
She also changes her hair style in movie two to a more flattering style.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that Pacifica was just redeemed because she has trauma
Firstly because she didn’t really do anything wrong, her greatest crime is being kind of a bitch but how many teens is that true for? And secondly because they show the humanity of her and that she’s just a product of her environment who is willing to grow and change before the episode where the ship is introduced
A person doesn't need to do crime to be redeemed.
@@DeathKitta A person also doesn't need to have trauma to be redeemed
@@Пинагод that’s why Sasha is the best
@@Пинагод Yeah I didn't argue with this part! A person can be redeemed even if they don't have trauma. A person can not be redeemed even if they have trauma.
yeah, I literally had to stop watching the video because there's no point. That base assumption is just a stupid oversimplification of writing a character. Like bro, her redemption isn't just "because she has trauma". Her trauma is the catalyst of her poor behaviors because her poor behaviors are born from her shitty upbringing. Her upbringing/trauma EXPLAINS her behaviors. Her "redemption"(if you can call it that) is called character development. Like a 12yo isn't in the starting end of puberty and it's totally feasible for her to grow as a person over the course of a story. And I wouldn't even say she was redeemed, she improved and is trying to be better.
Tbh Pacifica is HOW entitlment works...people aren't BORN snobbish or entitled or bad. It's how they're raised makes what they eventually can become...like example...enabling parents who for many reasons do not give child any consequences. Parents who cover up their children's lies and bad behaviour(to save face very often) and thus teach them anything goes. And unless those people have others around them or later in life decide to change bc they finally see the error of their ways...they are at high risk of becoming entitled, spoiled and cruel to others. Pacifica was lucky enough to interact with Dipper and Mabel and others and have someone in her life call her out. also what makes people forgive her more is that...she's still a child. She's not the bully or villian who USED to have a bad childhood but is now full grown adult who is responsible for their own choices and CAN go to therapy themsevles and change. She's a child, that still lives with her parents and doesn't have anywhere else to go. She's essentially TRAPPED in an abusive enviorment.
"Those Cinderella sequels no one watched" I won't stand for Cinderella 3 slander!
ngl those movies plots were way more good than I expected. It felt like they actually kinda cared.
Alright, you two and Sarcastic Chorus have convinced me to watch the sequels.
@@Takejiro24 only the third one got it?
I watched Cinderella 3 rather than the first one RELIGIOUSLY as a young girl.
@@roxanne_ same, i will die on the hill of cinderella sequels
Its funny because Pacifica is what made me realized I was a bad person when I was younger. I was a bully, I was self centered, and I hurt people just because I was hurt. Of course I didn't realize it, but when I watching Gravity Falls and saw how they showed Pacifica's home life. I realized how similar we were and it made me realize that I wasn't a good person... and that my parents weren't exactly being the best of parents. But she also showed me that it was possible to change and be better. It's why the redeeming the rich girl trope is my favorite! It's because I kind lived through that trope.
Hi ! I hope you're doing well.
I've a question: Do you believe in God ?
In an episode featuring an axe stuck on a ghost's skull and blood dripping from stuffed animal heads' mouths, the bell used to rein Pacifica in whenever she gets "out of line" comes off as the creepiest element around.
Watching an action that was meant for dogs used on a child by her own parents is Fridge Horror at its finest.
Part of why Pacifica works as a character is a few reasons
1. While she was antagonistic, outside of being stereotypically mean and rude to people, she never did anything especially harmful and as we see later in the Northwest Manor Mystery, is genuinely horrified at not only the things her own Father does but the terrible things her ancestors did to get to where they are
2. Her redemption isn't immediate, it takes time, first she's abrasive and rude, then as Dipper and Mabel get to know her during the Mini Golf episode they see she is capable of being humble and cooperative. And then later during the Manor episode when Pacifica is given the choice to either help Dipper and save people or simply take the easy route with her family, she takes the high ground and makes the right choice.
3. Part of the reason people like her with Dipper is because they work well off each other. Dipper isn't easily impressed by wealth or material possessions, thus she can't bribe or buy him out and she's so blunt and honest she'll say to his face when he's doing something stupid. They work well together and have legit chemsitry...also they are the same age so it doesn't raise red flags like Wendy would.
4. The Trauma itself wasn't the redemption itself, the Mini Golf episode showed she had good qualities, the Trauma episode just helped explain both why she acted so hostile in the past and also why she might be willing to act differently compared to her parents, because that behavior was essentially forced on her.
also, as far as dipcifica, they both do not feel the need to impress each other or be someone theyre not. pacifica doesnt have to act like a rich snob because dipper couldnt care less about how powerful her family is, and dipper doesnt have to impress her, because shes the same age as him and doesnt need to be impressed. they can just be themselves around each other, which makes their interactions feel WAY less annoying and more genuine and sweet, which is a big contrast to wendy and dipper. it took exactly one episode (you know which one lol) to convince me on them because they interacted with each other like real people, not like a kid trying to suck up to a cardboard cut out of a "cool girl."
“isn’t this cheating?”
“Pacifica is rich Mable, she’s cheating in LIFE.”
-Dipper *insert year*
Quick edit: 2010 is the year thank you to the person In the replies.
That was 12 years ago.
@@bettycharms thank you then.
Wasn't it 2012?
@@bluedragon3657yup
I mean, no lies detected.
I’d say Pacifica works because she makes a couple of things more interesting. Dipper’s love arc becomes interesting with the idea of him getting with someone he both didn’t think he could get and didn’t think he would want and Pacifica’s rivalry with Mabel becomes more interesting with the idea of them becoming sisters-in-law. Not to mention redeemed Pacifica comes off as more useful narratively than irredeemable Pacifica.
Glad I’m not the only one sick and tired of ppl using Zuko’s arc as the “baseline” of redemption arcs. Every writer/show creator’s gonna do redemptions differently, and it’s possible to love/admire more than one arc across multiple shows.
Here’s the one thing they all miss out; Zuko was never fully evil. It was more of a story about how he didn’t need to regain his honour because he was the one of the only people in the fire nation who had it. Season 2 is him seeing the extent of the damage the 100 years war his family perpetuated has done to the world and that, whilst he didn’t start the fire, he needs to put it out. Frankly, most of his crimes were following orders and fighting the main characters.
And that’s two problems with villains like Baron Draxum, the Diamonds and Kylo Ren. They are the ones who started and perpetuated the fires, they rarely ever choose to do better and, whilst they are very personal villains to the heroes, they’re also big to others outside the main cast.
I know that’s a weird one but the main characters forgiving/putting up with the villains whilst people outside the inner circle still suffer is rather nasty.
@@christopherbennett5858 Let's also add to the fact that we frequently see sparks of goodness in Zuko even in the earlier seasons that let us know he's better than is initially shown. His father and sister are comically evil. Azula is crazy and takes delight in watching others suffer. We see how she treats even her own best friends. Before we ever see Ozai we know he's bad news, this is a man who intentionally left a burn mark on his own son's face and sent him as far away as possible on a mission he never thought he was going to succeed. Everyone thought the avatar was gone, this was him telling Zuko "Just die already".
But even in his first introduction we see that Zuko wasn't sadistic. Once he had Aang he agreed to leave the Water tribe alone, he didn't start a massacre, he just wanted the avatar and nothing more. He apologized to his crew members for taking them for granted and he would occasionally get annoyed with his uncle but would go out of his way to save him by himself. Zuko started as a jerk but he wasn't evil.
I feel like bringing up Emperor's New Groove into this topic.
Kuzco was the embodiment of mean rich kid who gets redeemed in the end. But he didn't need any sad childhood backstory to achieve said redemption. He was just an entitled brat who got kicked out of his pedestal and for the first time in his life had to feel as powerless as those he considered beneath him, so he decided to learn to be more down to earth and appreciate humility
Any semblance of tragic backstory is deemed irrelevant to the plot of the movie due to it being a comedy and is only indireclty shown so one can watch the movie without ever really having to think about it (the whole having no family and the implication no one really cared enough about him to teach him right or wrong before meeting Pacha and stuff)
I feel as though it is less invalidity and moreso "not an excuse, because it is the issue". There was no one to tell him to back off, because he was the one to tell other people that. Sometimes someone just needs a slap in the face to get it.
I love how Matt Braly (unapologetic Pacifica fan that he is) used her brief but effective character arc as the foundation for Anne's development throughout _Amphibia._ Many will argue that Sasha is the Pacifica of that show (which she does share some similarities with besides the blonde hair) but her manipulative tendencies and need to control the direction of her friendships make her more akin to Preston Northwest and his abusive means of controlling his daughter and everyone he views as beneath him.
Anne, despite coming from a more loving home life and not being as antagonistic, shares more of Pacifica's unhealthy traits early in the series. She's selfish, argumentative against others who challenge her beliefs, heavily resistant to change, and very submissive to those she views as above her. Just as "Northwest Mansion Mystery" rocked Pacifica's world views, _Amphibia_ did the same for Anne with far more depth. Stripped of her old comforts and securities, she begins actively steering her life to become a version of herself that she can look in the mirror and love what she's become. Sometimes that involved being emotionally vulnerable and open to supporting others' dreams, sometimes it meant taking a stand against a friend when its clear they didn't have her well-being in mind.
While it may be fan speculation (as well as a big part of most great _Gravity Falls_ fanfics and art pieces) Pacifica's future character growth likely would have similarities with Anne's journey. By the end of season two her family had lost most of their wealth and status, but she was still happy to attend Dipper and Mabel's birthday parties with gifts she knew held personal value to them. Its easy to imagine this trend gradually continuing with her branching out to others outside her parents' control and working to distance herself further from her family legacy.
That, and given the Caesar Cipher in "Wax Museum," probably growing so close to Dipper that she ends up marrying into the Pines family. Because Matt Braly is truly the patron saint of r/Dipcifica.
Afmzfcfzx 4 ivcb!
The reason it’s ok to see her as redeemed is because she’s heavily implied to be breaking a cycle. She literally stops the bullshit her family have held in place for years and wants to change, be herself, be a kid and go against the toxic everything her parents are and represent.
We never see her past this point in her life really, but in Weirdmageddon she opposes the Sal her dad tries to make with Bill, which is at least something. She’s taking strides and getting out of that abusive and toxic mindset her parents gave her
I just wish that we got to see more of Pacifica after the Northwest episode. She was starting to get really interesting, then she was basically ignored until some scenes in weirdmaggedon.
tbh, my favorite redemption arc isn't zuko's, but peridot's. it's short yet effective, and you can clearly tell the reasoning behind her change.
To be fair,i think all the redemption storylines are half subverting the mean girl trope , and half a refusal to dismiss children as rotten and unable to get better and point out that most of their bad behavior is due to poor parenting
16:10 maybe because deep down we all wish our childhood bullies realised how terrible people they were, stopped being terrible people, made amends and sought forgiveness from the people they hurt?
Just world fallacy.
Monster High did this with Cleo De Nile, back in the early 2010's. Mean rich girl, brat around the school. Then you meet her sister and dad who basically verbally abuse her on the daily and tell her she's garbage.
Jeez, this trope more overdone than I thought.
Pacifica: can I pay you to pretend that didn't happen?
The internet: no, I don't think u can
It's sad that pacifica development didn't fully happen because they had to introduce ford and make him a main character for the shows end, so ep with her got cancelled and she even was supposed to be in roadside attraction would've made the plot different. They did somewhat carry on the development in lost legends face off
Wait What, Pacifica was supposed to be in Roadside Attraction?
And, what is this cancelled Pacifica Episode?
@@Watanabe347 I wish we got to see Pacifica in Roadside Attractions, that would be awesome
Ok but Anastasia didn't "get prettier" she actually didn't have her design changed at all which was such a nice touch, she only became more honest and kind! Which was all she ever needed to find love. Such a nice simple message
My girlfriend is a rich girl who was brought up as a princess living in Beverley Hills. Her parents are judgemental and treat poor people as if they're less than human. She told me that she used to share her parents' beliefs when she was a child; thinking she was better than other people. But now she is a better person, and sees everyone as equals. She is now embarrassed by, and ashamed of, the person she used to be. Though to me, it wasn't her fault. Her parents brought her up that way. They are grown adults, and they are still like that. She had the strength and maturity to grow beyond those beliefs, and she wants to continue to be a better person, so she has nothing to be ashamed of.
Ironically, I have always loved Pacifica, and other characters who fit this trope, before ever meeting my girlfriend in the first place.
I hate how she stopped existing after she was developed. MLP did the same thing with Diamond Tiara. We never get see redeemed bullies just being casual reoccurring characters.
For DT: it was fault of Hasbro. The writers DID plan a couple of episodes for her post-redemption, but Hasbro denied them.
@@grayfox4819 Which is annoying because I wish Silver Spoon would've finally evolved into her own character but this just didn't happen...
@@grayfox4819 For real? I had no idea...
Amity was a redeemed bully who was just a casual reoccurring character until several episodes into season 2 when she became more of a main character
I mean, does it have to be a character who actually matters?
When The Ghost and Molly Mcgee did this with Andrea, I was threw with this trope. I like Andrea as a character since she's not overly mean and didn't made it her life goal to hurt the main character, but the show didn't has to really redeem her. Esphecially considering since some of the fans forgot she basically made Libby an about cast for a portion of her school life and basically doing the same for Molly( Didn't help that the show play it for laughs)
The difference is the ghost and Molly McGee is a comedy. The other three shows though still having jokes are more about plot and story.
Is Andrea actually that rich
@@AppleCinderr They didn't keep her as a villain because Bill acknowledged that Andrea being a simple antagonist is boring and he's absolutely right to have that mindset, one note Queen Bees like Chloe from Miraculous are static and only exists to prop up the Protagonist instead of having any real agency except for how they oppose the protagonist.
@@killamanjaro53 Yeah, but at least Chloe _almost_ got to be more. Too bad
@@47ratsinahoodie Yeah it sucked because she had potential but then they discarded it, and now she's just there now antagonizing the heroes and there's no need to pay attention to her because there's nothing to go and do with her.
Everyone always pointing out amity, Pacifica, and Sasha for this trope, but no one gives respect to the og QUEEN Heather for starting this trope and arguably doing it the best.
I don't think it's just an issue with Disney, but with fandoms and writing in general, So many stories paint out rich brats as kids who went through trauma, when really that's not entirely true. Sometimes they're just rich brats because their parents let them do whatever they want, whenever they want. Also, fandoms seem to really be okay with saying someone's redeemed just because we see that they went through trauma despite all the bad things they've done. (Wanda, Draco, Snape etc.)
Especially when those characters are white. They wouldn't treat those characters the same if they weren't
@@millsgurl8358 what does this have to do with anything.
@@valentinkambushev4968 because it’s true
@@valentinkambushev4968 a lot 😂
Well they are and they aren't my mom taught high school and what she saw was Ritch brats were allowed to do what they wanted but their parents were emotionally neglectful didn't know anything about what their kids were up to so it's usually a need for attention,no boundaries introduced. Some of that can lead to trauma and the really ritch kids sometimes especially the boys really do have these crushing expectations to take over the family legacy accompanied by an arranged marriage like the ex of someone I knew.
If I am being honest, Dipper and Pacifica being shipped together may have been due to the one episode in Northwest manor, but their relationship is partially because of Mabel's rivalry with Pacifica, which was shown from time to time in season 1. Dipper clearly disliked Pacifica mainly because of how she treated his sister Mabel. Pacifica while clearly shown to be bad to Mabel, she's even shown some signs of envying Mabel, particularly the episode that introduced the Northwest cover up. Pacifica goes through most of her development in season 2, while becoming a better person due to the Pines twins. First through Mabel, who starts to end their rivalry. Then through Dipper, who shares positive chemistry with Pacifica when they actually spend time and get to know each other. Even though they don't get together by the end of the series, which I feel is a good thing for their relationship at the moment, Dipper and Pacifica do have a positive connection with each other, and there's a possibility that they could get together in the future.
Side note: I like Sasha Waybright's development throughout Amphibia. It is implied that Sasha being manipulative and controlling is due to her having divorced parents. Often in real life and in media, when someone (particularly a child) is put into a situation outside their control, they tend to take control over situations that they think they can control, especially if it matters to them. That definitely sounds like Sasha's situation. It doesn't excuse the bad things she did, but it explains it. Sasha definitely had to take responsibility for her bad decisions, while also dealing with the consequences, such as her scar from Anne, losing her friendship with Percy and Braddock, losing Anne's trust and friendship for a time, and her part in Andrias getting the music box. I do think that Sasha did work hard to make up for the mistakes she made, and I was glad that she, Anne, and Marcy were able to save their friendship in the end.
Agreed
With Cinderella:
When narcissists lose their scapegoat, they find a new one.
Anastasia.
Honestly given the stepmother in the grimms version pressured her own daughters to cut their own feet. I'm not so sure Cinderella was the only badly treated one.
Although she's not Disney but instead Cartoon Network, Kimmy from 2010's Sym-bionic Titan is also a pretty interesting example of this trope as well. She was the mean girl head cheerleader trope we all know to hell and back, but through the small amount of episodes of the show we did get, she was earned enough depth and insight to make her one of the best characters of the show. We got to see how she views HERSELF through the trope she lives through and that she genuinely falls for "a nerd" that believes 100% she can be more than what people expect her to be. She's not the most revolutionary character to do this sort of trope, but she's always the first example I can think of for it (and it sucks she's only ever going to be remembered on the internet for that one dancing scene).
Bro I miss that cartoon bad
A good show that was cut short, I swear CN has something against giant robot cartoons... And I agree 100% on regards to Kimmy, really loved how she went from a generic by-the-numbers mean girl seen a thousand times, to a real person wanting to better herself. It saddens me how she's never brought up in conversations aside from the infamous twerk scene.
Not surprised that Disney loves proving that rich people can be good.
Oof.
Took me a second to catch that shade. ☠
Disney be like: #notalltherich
Tbh I thought that's where this video was gonna go. I let it slide cause it's children.
@@LangkeeLongkee Yeah especially since Gravity Falls in particular just oozes #EatTheRich rhetoric.
Rich people are not evil. They are lucky
I love Pacifica's character growth in the show and comics!🥰
I think the ship was more a cherry ontop kind of thing for me when it comes to Pacifica. I definitely enjoyed her development more then I did the ship between her and Dipper. But isn't that what a Ship is for? I mean, we literally have people just talking to eachother for a scene and suddenly people are drawing ship art and writing about them. So I guess that's the bases for a ship now adays? I'm just glad they got more development rather then them just... talking to eachother.
Chloe from Miraculous is another current example (although not from disney) her slow transition from minor antagonistic to side protagonist has been so enjoyable to watch. They truly took the time to teach her, not one, but several hard lessons about the consequences of treating others horribly.
Eh I'd say it's from Disney now, given they have a hand in producing the show.
Also, y'know, them seemingly taking that transition and then 180-ing it again, although we'll have to see what happens post-Astruc working on the show.
Ah man this hurts to read
And yet, if it wasn't for Asstruc's hate boner for a fictional character that he created that led him to deliberately destroy Chloe's development, she'd could've been the best written side character on the show.
I wouldn't count Chloe considering they decided to IMMEDIATELY nerf her
Well, I would even say that Chloe oscillating between petty, likable and borderline villainous makes her kinda feel more realistic.
Although we all know it's (unsurprisingly) just bad writing and failed attempt to downplay a cliche
She doesn't need redemption, her worst crime is being somewhat unpleasant. She's a kid and she is the way she is because of her parents. The point of her character was that you shouldn't judge a kid for how they are as harshly as if they were an adult, and it seems that you didn't get it.
There definitely is a “she’s the real victim here. She’s traumatized,” obsession with blonde rich girls in fiction. Regina George, Sharpay Evans, Draco Malfoy. But I see it more from fandoms than authors.
But Pacifica’s case, she had to earn it more than these other characters. Dipper doesn’t trust her, is upfront about his dislike of her cruelty and is unforgiving until she shows a kinder, more vulnerable and sincere side. There definitely should have been an “I’m sorry for how I treated you scene with Mabel.”
But she’s also made aware of her family’s cruel legacy, processes her role in it, and chooses to change for the better.
Don't forget Elodie from OK K.O! Although she's more on the category of Sasha as she also didn't have any abusive parents, either, she's just more absorbed in her popularity. Enid softened her down a lot in the P.O.I.N.T Prep arc, and even gets to share her love of Chip Damage with K.O as well. And yes, it's a Cartoon Network example, but she kinda fits the bill, too.
The fact I thought Enid and Elodie were EXES before 😭
I find it interesting that in Elodie's case she was absorbed by the popularity a lot until Enid kicked her ass but at the end of that episode it showed that Elodie did still care about Enid but it's possible THEN the idea that she was being a jerk was being planted. During the P.O.I.N.T. Prep Arc, she's still absorbed but didn't let it get in the way during when Enid's life was in danger, apologized for her actions and then started to be on friendly terms again, even if it was at risk for her good grades after looking hella sus about going out during the sleeping hours at the school (but was still rewarded of a good grade for doing the right thing).
THANK YOU for mentioning the Cinderella sequels!!! They are soo good yet people barely talk about them.
I wouldn't say she was redeemed, more along the lines she got development(which the finale did roll back most of, but she got it) plus, while I do ship them, and its largely because they're cute together(which they are, try to deny that), a smaller part is that is the fact it was her, or Candy as even Grenda finds someone before endgame.
15:44 Actually I would have liked if that's how the show went. Having the frogs not trusting Sasha but only allying with her because they have no choice. But they slowly start to trust her as they work together. There was even a fanfic in which Wartwoood was attacked by evil Marsy and when she saw that Sasha is protecting the frogs, Marsy taunted her saying: "After all They are just dumb frogs, right? They don't matter." Everyone remembered Sasha's words, but she responded with "You are wrong! And so was I when I said that!" This would have worked a lot better!
But there's no possible way Darcy or Andrias could've known about that. What happened at Toad Tower was completely isolated, and the only reaction Andrias had to it was sending Yuunan to kill Grime because he failed his job (and post was destroyed).
So yeah, it’s a neat idea on paper, but it's impossible. A better concept would be to have Darcy taunt Sasha about if she just abandonded her morals and doubled down on her controlling tendencies during True Colors and didn't hold back against Anne, she could've stopped the Core's plans AND Marcy's betrayal before they even happened. Then Sasha counters by asking what the point of having that power would be if it's so empty.
I personally love the trope, bully characters becoming better people, it gets me, maybe is because i still have a faith in humanity.
Heh, I remember in one of Alex Hirsh QnA, he was suprised that people "like" Pacifica! Like she was made to be the anti Mabel and wasn't intended to be liked in the first place!
Out of all these characters, i think Sasha is the most interesting. Not because her redemption was the best because it could have been better. But the fact that she doesn't have any obvious trauma to excuse her actions just makes it interesting because it's true, you don't need a traumatic background to be a bad person. Some people are just bad - maybe they were influenced by friends, or they thought being mean could make them popular. There can be a reason but it doesn't have to be trauma. And while characters like Amity and Pacifica are more forgivable because they were mostly just bullies, characters like Catra are just irredeemable villains who got redeemed badly.
I really want to see more redeemable antagonists who are just bad. Without trauma, without an abusive family or dead parents or whatever. Because you don't need a reason to be bad and you don't need an excuse to better yourself. You can have a character who is mean or hurtful because of unrelated reasons, and still show them recognizing their mistakes and growing as people. There are examples of this in protagonists or side characters, like Sokka for example, but very rarely in antagonists / villains. For a villain to be redeemable, they have to be sympathetic i.e. they need a tragic backstory as to why they became such a monster. As this will suddenly excuse the hundreds of war crimes they've committed. I just want to see a redeemable villain with no excuse for a change.
And for the characters who _do_ have trauma, i want to see people still hold them accountable. One of the million reasons why Zuko's redemption is so amazing is because they actually bring up this point. Toph mentions that he has a messed up family and maybe that's the reason, to which the others say that it's still not an excuse, or something along those lines. This is needed, because trauma or abuse isn't an excuse to hurt innocent people. It's a reason but you can't excuse a person's wrongdoings just because they're traumatized.
Also another thing, not all antagonists have to be redeemed. Not even the sympathetic ones. Azula is an example of this where she's very obviously just a traumatized child, but she still crossed the line of being redeemable. Similarly, Simon from book 3 of Infinity Train is also a sympathetic character who gets a corruption arc instead of a redemption, and slowly turns more and more irredeemable until he is killed off in the end. These characters are still so interesting because we sympathize with them, but the story still makes it clear that their actions cannot be excused or forgiven.
Personally I’m more addicted to the Catra like Characters cause at least they make the show they’re in entertaining as an antagonist. And they’re eventual redemption of their characters more worth it.
While Sasha’s redemption arc could have been better, it’s as you said the most interesting and her character development dives deeper to me, feels MUCH more raw and deep to me than Amity or Pacifica to me thanks to Amphibia’s story telling, at least fanfiction can do for Sasha’s redemption fully what Canon didn’t fulfill for everyone.
@@toadlord8594 Catra was a great antagonist but her redemption was awful. I truly liked her as a villain but my dislike towards her comes from how badly they messed up her character arc and the story as a whole. Her redemption did not feel deserved because of how easily everyone forgave her.
And yes, i agree about Sasha. While her redemption arc was rushed, it wasn't bad. And definitely not as terrible as Catra's. Her character as a whole was very interesting and even though she got forgiven quickly, it felt a bit more deserved because we saw how she actually put in effort to be a better person.
@@skyhideaway okay then Please tell me, what steps/advice would be used for making characters like Catra (Sasha) more redeemable in peoples eyes?
What makes the best female Antagonist Villain to Hero story great?
Cause all I can think of is having them more nervous/scared to fighting against the girl(s) they loved deep inside. Flashback origins of their bad families/parental figures. Earlier start on redemption arc after Season one at their worst.
I mean it’s possible to turn characters who started out as very unlikable but throughout the angst and journey find themselves and genuinely want to become better people.
I believe that it’s a MUCH more inspiring redemption than someone who started out with goodness at the first episode but for some reason these kinds of redemptions are always looked down.
So what are the proper steps to rewriting it better properly cause I’d LOVE for the day these kinds of redemption arcs done properly right.
@@toadlord8594 I'll start with Catra because she had the worst redemption. Either of the points that i mention alone could drastically improve her redemption (imo).
1. Have her fight Adora because she's ordered to, rather than because she's jealous / bitter that Adora left her. This way, she would be holding back a little, like you mentioned. (I mean, if Catra did "love" Adora, like she said, she would have held back anyway)
2. Not have her open the portal and risk wiping out the entire planet (and killing Queen Angela). Fighting an enemy is one thing, threatening mass genocide (and getting away with it) is another. That part alone made her irredeemable.
3. If the writers wanted to keep these parts and still redeem Catra, I'd say there are more ways to redeem a villain than to have them join the heroes. People usually use Zuko as the blueprint, which is why most redeemed villains / antagonists end up befriending the heroes. But that's not the only way to write a redemption bc an act of redemption is basically a person improving themselves and writing their wrongs; this can be done without the help or forgiveness of the heroes.
In Catra's case, the best redemption would be for her to leave the Horde at some point, apologize to Adora and the others, Adora may or may not forgive her but either way, Catra decides to take a journey to find herself. She wishes Adora good luck or whatever, and ends things on relatively good terms. She can go to a suitable place (like the Crimson Waste, where she was happy) and build a new life _without_ all the people she abused. She can build new, healthier relationships and heal from her trauma without having it negatively affect anyone else.
4. Or at the very least, have people be more wary of her or even straight up hostile towards her after she is rescued from Horde Prime. Don't have characters go "omg enemy" only for Adora to say she's on their side, and they're like "okay cool, we love her now". Especially since the princesses got so mad at Entrapta for being emotionally manipulated by Catra and turned against them. Bonus: don't make Catra _still_ act like an absolute asshole to Adora if we're supposed to be liking her now.
As for Sasha, my only complaint was that her redemption wasn't fleshed out and she got forgiven too quickly, because there was a bigger, common enemy. So the only thing I'd change there is that some of the filler episodes in S3 are swapped out for more focus on Sasha, and maybe Anne and the Plantars could be a bit more suspicious about her at first before realizing that she has actually changed for the better.
I’m glad someone is finally talking about this.
Yeah I realize that I have a favorite for the Redeeming Mean Girl" as well. There's always something more engaging and much more satisfying about watching this character who starts off as completly awful and throughout the angst and journey unto eventually realizing "oh no, I"M THE ASSHOLE" and there's the extra characterization added into i tthat makes me want to cry. I end up feeling like a proud father watching their terrible daughter (or son) start to finally comes to turn that they've been an annoying jackass for the while and then genuinely vow to change their ways into being better people that the main character would like to be actual friends and turn from villainy to hero ( and in fanon case, Boy/Girl friends) with that just feels... earned after said season of putting the work in to being better.
More interesting than watching the main character's development and hero angst cause well they're the protagonist most of the time they're suppose to start off decent/likable enough but it always makes them
Give me episodes with characters like Amity, Sasha, and even Andrea being the "protagonist" of said episode and I'll be all over that.
Side note: While Amity's arc was given more time to breath and overall the most organic, I'm personally was more addicted to Sasha Waybright's development and her change throughout Amphibia pulls my heart strings a lot more.
I love it
I reckon a part of the Zuko redemption arc that’s not brought up as much when invoking it is using a contrast character, an Azula figure who does not get redeemed. The character who could have undergone self-reflection but due to circumstances like the opportunities not opening up or being under a bad influence, didn’t and keeps trying to tempt the Zuko figure back to the dark side. The Disney examples don’t tend to use this. Cinderella does, where Drizella staying under Tremaine’s thumb contrasts with Anastasia looking for her own self-worth and being around people who encourage this. Yet Gravity Falls doesn’t, the closest example being Pacifica’s parents but it’s usually a peer, and Owl House doesn’t have a foil for Amity in this department. Indeed, her siblings long ago knew their parents wouldn’t recognise them for anything except discipline. For someone to be redeemed it works better when there’s someone who doesn’t want to be redeemed.
What's ironic is that I was actually shipping these two even before Northwest Mansion mystery, the only episode to star them both without someone else also playing a heavy role in their story, even aired, and that's all because of their little moments they've had in the series during her rivalry with his sister
yep, as soon as i saw her i immediately know... she will be Dipper's love interest... to be fair i was wrong since they never get together.
the funny thing is when my friends and i watched The Owl House ( we are gravity falls fans), as soon as we saw Amity we immediately go "she will be Pacifica"... we actually called Amity "Green Pacifica" for a while lmao....
lol Amity x Luz also like Diana x Akko from Anime called Little Witch Academia, we used to call Diana as "Witch Pacifica", sometimes my friend called Amity as "Disney Diana" ....
18:36 I think you hit it right on the head with that line. I only discovered this show near the end of highschool when I was mature enough to feel shame for a lot of the things I used to say and believe. And the idea of recognizing what makes you a bad person and trying to be better kept me from continuing some bad patterns
I absolutely love this trope because (to me at least) its best way for character development.
Someone who never got to learn what morality was supposed to be and was pretty much conditionned to be that way on top of being handed all the thing they wanted without real struggle.
Its fun to see them realise how fucked their life were and try to adapt.
you don't understand how much i appreciate this video. i have had numerous people in my mentions defending rich white girls for being horrible people. im over.
What does being white have to do with anything?
@@valentinkambushev4968 white favoritism is a guiding reason why fandom is drawn to characters like Pacifica.
@@valentinkambushev4968 have you seen the numerous examples?
@@xxmemestar69xx82 I don't know why you are complaining. Yes, most rich girls are white, but this means that their rich WHITE parents are torturing them. Aren't you happy that rich white people are presented as monsters. Besides they can't make people of color bad because everyone would say it's racism.
@@valentinkambushev4968 lmao you’re one of those people. You don’t even merit an actual response from me 😂
I think Pacifica got kind of a half-baked redemption arc tbh. She gets around to the point where Amity was circa lost in language and then they kind of, just, stop. Her dad has to force her to stoop so low as conversing with a homeless person. And Sasha? I could write a dissertation some problems I had with that.
But yeah, 'rich and spoiled' is bad enough to lead a Mean Girls clique, comes with parental expectation baggage so that it's not 'really' the daughter's fault, but also not evil enough that a redemption arc feels undeserved. Pretty easy target to fill the Piccolo/Zuko slot in a party.
Dipper x Pacifica is cannon. In “Lost Legends” the lost episodes of the show, one of the episodes follow dipper and Pacifica, at the end Pacifica text. ‘Dipper’ asking him to forgot about the hug they shared earlier, Mabel text back “OOOOOO do you have a crush!” And Pacifica denies it until Mabel can break it out of her
I just saw the video dubbing Lost Legends and it really was just the epitome of fan service and I’m totally okay with that lol
An example from anime/manga would be Bakugou Katsuki of My Hero Academia, a male example. Started off as a major bully character (his infamous swan dive' suicide comment still a scar from chapter one) who told the main character (Deku) to kill himself. But after getting reality checks throughout the first 3 seasons, he's become the number one popular character in the series in every popularity poll. He's got a mountain size amount of fans that freaking worship the guy in the United States and Japan!
Bakugo is popular in the fandom because he’s ‘attractive’, not because he had a revolutionary character arc
@@Riaah_love I theorized that he’s so overwhelmingly popular cause people just adore “jerk with a heart of gold” rival characters so much.
i mean if we are talking about anime... there are plenty lmao... like the famous one is "A Silent Voice" or.... you know... *the entirety of dragon ball* lmao
@@yohanesbobbysanjaya3541 Yeah thanks for bringing that Up, Dragon Ball most of the Z Warriors were People who Literally tried or were related in some way to killling Goku once before, (Piccolo and Vegeta) And Android 18 and 17. Lmao
Alex Hirsch and his directors cut podcast literally talked about how he wanted to make her redeemed. He’s not a product of Disney. He just wanted to do something creative with the character.
I beleve there is 3 main reasons they use this archetype arc:
1- it is easy to made, an arrogant and abuse parents, a child tryng to please them
2- it is working, so why stop?
3- they want you to have sympathy for a rich person
Besides his archetype, this character never is poor, black or something like that, they are always one "protagonist like" character
I forgot this wasnt a cinderella analysis for a sec
Everyone loves redemption arcs, and redeeming bullies avoids its worst pitfalls: "redeeming" the irredeemable. Catra and Sasha are great characters, but we can all admit after the many people they've almost killed, there should've been more time of them earning forgiveness. Redeeming a bully is time efficient in a medium time is often constricted.
The only person Sasha tried to kill was Hop Pop and (briefly) Sprig. She more than made up for that when she saved their lives _3 times_ during the Third Temple.
The only characters she’d tried to kill was Hop Pop (cause of the execution order ) and Sprigg for a brief moment. Season two she pretty much reduced to having a rivalry with Sprigg, she never obsesses into actual malice with the Plantars or anyone really other than Andrias.
She’s a jerk but she’s not heartless.
Cinderella 2 mention. Watched it over and over as a kid, loved it so much more than the first movie.
TBF people also shipped Mabel/Mermando after just 1 episode of them together. This may be just a "Gravity Falls" thing 😆
I asked for a video over Dipcifica and I got what I wanted and even more. Thank you.
Dude it’s so nice to see someone mention how fucked up the bell was. I’ve seen some people mention it lightly, but still question why she couldn’t just say no to her parents. Bc it’s just…soooooo much worse than just having overbearing parents
I've always been a sucker for characters like her who believe in a lie, and eventually have to confront it. Vegeta has been one of my favorite for using, for what is called sometimes, "The Lie" and going through character arcs that develops them, if not outright changing them.
I would have liked some more from her, but her confrontation with history and relation to her family was amazing already.
Well, I think Piccolo's arc used this a lot better, but that may be just me
@@zosiazaremba7479 True, it was used really well as it deals with nature and nurture (if I remember correctly). I do like Vegeta a bit more as its something that he continues to struggle with even in Super.
this was always my favorite possible ship from this show. for many of the reasons pointed out here... but also because of the fact that this episode actually made me feel like they have chemistry. they play off each other, they make each other better, and I really love their moments
also "you're the worst" made me laugh so hard when it happened
It's not possible, it's canon. It's been confirmed canon 3 times in official source materials.
She was also like… yk a child, if she were an adult that’d be different
But she’s at most *twelve*, at 12, I don’t think it’s really about being “redeemed” so much as about growing outside of the small worldview somebody would have with such little experience
i feel like a good example of showing the trauma that the mean character goes/been through is also in Hey Arnold! too with Helga
I haven’t seen anyone talk about how calling it “Disney’s obsession” is disingenuous to the different creators’ ideas for the characters. It’s more of a coincidence that they all appear on under the same studio, because most likely the producers wrote the characters like that in order to tell the story they wanted rather than to “appease the studio”. It’s not Disney’s problem, there are tons of characters like that which aren’t on Disney channel.
sorry for bein’ a little nitpicky, i get the point of the vid tho!
As a self-proclaimed simp for the redeemed prince/princess type character, it's everything you said it was, but part of it is also that when the spoiled shitheads do truly redeem themselves, you can feel the weight of regret in everything they do with well(enough) written ones and it just makes the cool things thing might end up doing, thing much cooler because you ABSOLUTELY FEEL IT.
I like redemption Arcs for characters a whole lot. But I like it more when there is substance to the redemption.
Like Zuko's has a whole lot of substance to it and that's why I like it, it feels earned to me. We see that even when he's the villain he's not going that extra mile to be cruel or ruthless like his sister or father and often times when he does act terrible it's typically for his father's approval which feeds into that whole idea of childhood trauma.
Gajeel from Fairytail, he's my favorite character, but when he's introduced he is very clearly a villain and a fairly brutal one at that. But they also make it clear that when he's brought back into the show that he's not just going to be accepted, everyone else is scared of and/or hostile towards him. They make it clear he's not just going to be forgiven and they introduce these arcs of him putting in the extra work to be part of the guild from being a double agent, to protecting Levy, to saving the guild.
And some "redemption arcs" admittedly feel lackluster to me or more forced. Because I'm going to be honest, I am still pretty pissed off at Catra and I still very much don't like Bakugou or his "redemption". Because I will acknowledge Catra has trauma but she also has done a ton of terrible stuff even to the people who were on her side like Hordak. And Bakugou doesn't really have that excuse as he was just always a jerk and a narcissist, even his parents were sick of his shit.
I attended external class in my college about film and story telling, and one day my teacher taught us about "Zuko vs Eren"
I wont talk about zuko lol the video already stated everything... i intrigued when my teacher talked about Eren "Anti-Redemption" or as he said "the point of no return" ... it is interesting because my teacher dived into the nature of contrast and irony... or as my teacher said
"the point of no return is usually happens... when you returned back into a previous pivotal point in story but with contrasting circumstances, oh yeah the irony, that what makes it so damn good"
"Eren journey started when he said he will kill all his enemies, "i will kill them all". back then we assumed to be titan, we cheered him through his story, and now the circumstances had been switched.... when Eren became the villain, we prayed for him to change, for him to redeem himself... and when the Rumbling arrived at Marley, eren said the same sentence he said before.. "i will kill them all"... at that moment... you know he wont ever stop, he wont ever be redeemed.. that is the point of no return"
"this is the essence of Eren VS Zuko, Zuko redemption arc is about him changing his moral value, about him changing his character, acknowledging his flaw and as the story goes, zuko learned to be a better person... Eren is opposite, his moral never changes, his action is what drives the story, His Character is what drives the plot"
"now you understand that Plot and Character always go hand-in-hand, you can make story driven character like Zuko or plot driven character like Eren. i know many engineering student attended this class (yep including me), so i will use equation... Plot is X and Character is Y.. like a math equation Y = X + 1, you have the freedom to pick whether to assign number in X or Y and the other will follows, but you need to remember, keep it consistent.. the formula of your story, the main theme.. should never change"
lol i just wanted to share what my teacher taught me because i think its amazing
Well trauma isn't enough to redeem a character, but it is often enough to explain them. The redemtion has to come from what they do to make up for their mistakes.
It's a trend in a lot of shows because it functions off powerful mechanisms like emotional contrast and scarcity principle. You love it when the hard-ass finally lets their guard down to express a bit of tenderness because it's a rare occurrence---and because it's rare, it's incredibly valuable and you might not get many other chances to see it.
You know, I didn't expect this going into the video, but I think I 100% agree with everything you said here.
This man legit masterfully explained y I like mean girls in my show. Opened my eyes to facts I didn't even realize. To that I say GOAT!
I think that part of t he reason why Pacifica gets shipped so much with Dipper is because she is also the only other female character that he shows any real chemistry with. Wendy is always someone Dipper was attracted to but we see her shut that down. We also want Dipper to be happy and successful, which a common trope is having a romantic relationship. Don't get me wrong I don't disagree, these redemption arcs are definitely trendy right now. That being said, in this specific example with Pacifica, besides Wendy the only other choices are Grenda and Candy. Neither of these ladies ever really displayed any real connection or chemistry with Dipper. Thus it concludes that if you don't ship Wendy with Dipper, your only other choice is Pacifica.
I just got done rewatching the series. I loved the dynamic between Dipper and Pacifica in the show. What you didn’t mention is that in the last episode she put a heart on her “I” in Dipper’s letter.
Excuse you Cinderella 3 was an absolute masterpiece
it is my personal opinion that the younger in character is the easier it is to write character development/a redemption arc simply, because naturally as we get older, we change, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worst but all the same we change so the younger the character is the more natural it feels.
Small correction- Disney ripped off Ever After, where one of the sisters is a good person and gets looked down upon by her mother and sister. (It's almost beat from the beat in Anastasia's short story in the second movie and the third).
So no, it doesn't come from the Disney sequels from Cinderella.
It does come from one of the best live-action Cinderella movies- Ever After which was released back in 1998.
And since it's a Fox movie, Disney is keeping it in limbo, because they know it's one of the best and they ripped it off.
Broo, disney didn't do jack, alex hirsch and co made the whole damn show. If you listen to the DVD commentaries, as I have, you can very easily see that the development of Pacifica's character was a natural progression from the audience reaction and the general sentiment in the writing room. Disney funded, and curated the show. All stylistic and aesthetic decisions were given to the writers, storyboarders, animators, and producers, with the only contribution from disney being notes about how you "Can't include 'spin the bottle' in your scripts cause we don't want to give people the impression that it's a 'kissing party'." and junk like that
TL;DR it's probably more a cultural thing than a Disney thing. I'm not actually angry, sorry if that came across in my tone xo xo
Alright, but for real tho. Everytime I see a Pacifica x Dipper fan art. I'm just smiling :)
One of my favorite change of heart characters would be Vegeta. Mans went from greasing whole planets to marrying the orginal main character(Bulma was basically the lead hero in early classic dragon ball) growing a mustache and being a better father then his rival.
5:30 you can literally see when the dopamine kicks in for Dipper
One thing that keeps ringing in my head about Pacifica develop, that we really did't have to time to see, because she didn't has more screen time (not saying that that is a mistake or something), is the fact that she decided to change, and she was able to do it with dipper's helps, to do it in front of her parents, but the whole town was use to "mean" Pacifica, everyone else would expect her to be mean.
So they never really explore that transition, and not just in a "everyone learn that she's not (that) mean anymore" but "the social pressure to avoid to be like that again". It's easier to be that new person in front of the ones that were there, but once you are throw again to the "you are like this" social pressure, it thend to not show that change (even if it hurts later).
I think that was solved (in a way) with the weirdmaggedon, she was one of the (original) keys to save the town. Everyone saw her helping, and eating the same dust as anyone else.
“The real question becomes, why are they so popular?” Zuko
8:37 i’m a hard-core Disney fan so I know that cinderella three a twist in time actually takes place booked for the events of the sequel in a split timeline kind of situation since the movie ends with the reference of the baker from the second movie, Disney has that love for the Multiverse, even with their original stuff before they had their hands on
The trope may be overused yes but i eat it up everytime
The mean girl trope can also be attributed to Catra from She-Ra and the princess of power. Catra is basically the main villain in the early seasons. Catra does the things she does because when Adora left, she felt betrayed. It’s shown later on that Catra has HORRIBLE attachment issues, and is constantly trying to prove her worth to the people around her, specifically Hordak because he’s the highest power, but Adora as well. The thing that finally triggers her redemption is when Glimmer is held captive on horde primes ship, and they have a meaningful conversation. I think Scorpia leaving was definitely a crack in her self worth, but that conversation with Glimmer was what really triggered the “Oh shit, I’ve never really done any good in life.” In Catra. Soon after that conversation she saves Glimmer, someone who she highly dislikes through almost the entire show, at seemingly the cost of her own life. There’s more to say but I’m lazy and this comment is long enough.
(This is a plea to make videos on She-Ra)
I wish more rich girl characters could be softer almost right out of the gate like Momo Yaoyorozu from My Hero Academia, where she may come from a rich family, but she’s still really kind and supportive and doesn’t want to be known and seen as “the rich girl” and more as her own person.
There was a canon book that confirmed that Pacifica likes Dipper I believe
You’re completely forgetting the comic. There’s another whole story of Dipper and Pacifica working together, where Dipper expresses more empathy towards Pacifica and Pacifica ends up hugging him without trying to bribe him into forgetting, and while Mabel and Shmebulock are shipping them even harder, so it’s not just that one episode.
Also, since they don’t get together, I like to think it’s something that would happen in another summer down the road, just like other loose ends in Gravity Falls such as Bill’s return. That gives them time to develop into a healthy couple while also making it feel natural.
You realize in lost legends that while Pacifica was texting Mable that Pacifica didn’t even tell Mable that Pacifica didn’t like Dipper even when Mabel asked Pacifica if she did? Like Pacifica was hiding her feelings. I think Pacifica does like Dipper
Fun fact: in the amphibia episode where the stan and soos stand ins show up there's a cypher hidden in the episode that says "Dipcifica forever"