Not yet, but my plan (at least three years old) has been to let Manshoon be one of the major masterminds when the cities around the Moonsea are in trouble because of Bane priests, wizards of Thay and, well, Manshoon(s).
he was monologuing at my sorcerer so I subtle spell animated his bed and had it grapple him, his attempts to teleport away kept getting counterspelled, the DM justt had him curse his hubris and promise that he'd be back
There is an older clone of Manshoon making headway in the cult of the Dragon in my campaign he hasn't made himself known yet but he's there pulling strings
Had Manshoon as the villain for one of my groups as they played through Waterdeep: Dragon Heist. He managed to steal the gold out from under the pcs and while they took a rest he visited their tavern, kidnapped the street urchins they had adopted, and then blew the tavern up. They then discovered that he had sent the kids to slavers in Skullport 3:-)
Sounds like Manshoon might have used shapechange to mate with a dragon *as* a dragon, producing a full-blooded dragon daughter rather than a half-dragon. That would be hilariously maniacal if so.
Hearbreaking to hear how much of Ed's hard work was cut. Working as a writer by trade, I know how frustrating it is to do *all* that work and get nothing for it. What a pain.
Sometimes writers write too much, that's what editors are for. Example: As much as I love the series, Wheel of Time is too damn long, with some of the later books feeling like complete filler.
Ed, I don't have many heroes that I look up to, but you're one of them. You're someone I'd love to meet one day, do a D&D one shot with, and just grab a beer. Keep being awesome man!
Good to see the Master of the Greenwood again so soon ~ I always thought the Arch Wizard Manshoon, only level 16 in the Greybox days, was The Realms equivalent of Ernst Stavro Blofeld, and the Zhentarim his SPECTRE. The Clones just solidifies this.
Yeah, as far as I know there is the vampire mansion clone left. However, the original manshoon, being a 25th level wizard getting offed so easily didn't sit right with me. So I'm happy about the change. Manshoon is one of my favorite wizards in the realms, up there with the Netherese and Larloch.
Quite good lore on both Manshoon & the Zhents. Would be great to hear more about other organizations like the Kraken Society, Knights of the Shield, Eldreth Veluuthra, etc.
The Eldreth Veluthra formed the major antagonists in my 3.5e game for a while Party was hired by Bhyrindar Tellynan to recover a box (containing his families moonblade)
bless you mr greenwood. i appreciate these videos so much. the lore you produce is such a great blessing to storytellers everywhere and i hope one day to be able to shake your hand in appreciation for your contribution to both the stories you've written for, and for your contribution to the stories we tell our friends.
@@adampender2482 Overrated and overwritten would be Neverwinter. That was fine for a few video games in the early 2000's but good grief they put a lot of story behind that place. Underwritten, the area just west of Cormyr. There's nothing there. There's Darkhold, then you have to go a long way to Scornubel. I think the most underated region is the High moor. It was the site of Miyeritar, I know that it was wiped out but did they have basements? All kinds of stuff to find.
@@markcampbell4080 thank you for your answer. I've been DMing 1st and 2nd edition AD&D for 41 years and I've never ran a campaign in Faerun although ive collected it since the release of the grey box. It was always in Mystara and Greyhawk. But my second group will be wrapping up their campaign by spring and I've started writing a Faerun campaign in Ravensbluff. I thought that was an underutilized area and wide open for development.
@@adampender2482 Oh heck yeah. That's an area totally ignored by the books and games. I always imagined those people spoke with thick eastern block accents and wore fur caps as they toiled away mining blood stone and waring with orcs. I always imagined Sembia (just across the water) has having French accents and wore too much perfume. Love it!. I don't play D&D anymore, not for a while. My players wanted to switch to Pathfinder. Their world is fun but I grew up with the Forgotten Realms.
@@markcampbell4080 I'm old (51) and set in my ways 😂 I have 41 years and THOUSANDS of dollars 💵 tied up in 1st and 2nd edition. I'm not switching systems. Ironically though, 5e players and PF2 players that come to my table eventually just move to AD&D even with their own groups. They find the limitations so to speak refreshing along with the lethality and slow burn of character development
I love the new sword coast, but I always fall back to old school forgotten realms settings. Cormyr, Dalelands, moonsea, Sembia, Darkhold, Mythdrannor, and of course, Waterdeep. Grew up reading spellfire and playin in campaigns around the places listed above. We often had run ins with Fzoul, Elmister, Symbol, and the like
I've grown up with Forgotten Realms. I remember when they first hit the bookshelves and have bought them ever since. Grown up with authors, characters and spin offs. Love listening to Ed Greenwood and his lore.
Speaking of the Spellfire novel and beholders... That brought to mind the moment a beholder got in the crosshairs and pissed itself screaming before being neatly sliced in 2 heh.
I ran a game back in the 90s where the party was too low level to deal with Manshoon. The antagonist was Farshoon, nephew of Manshoon. I kept him just slightly higher level than the party, and every time they killed him, they ran into him again because uncle Manshoon had made a bunch of stasis clones for him.
Wow, I'm sincerely surprised! I was not expecting you to reveal that real Manshoon is alive just like that. I did not even think that you CAN do that. I mean isn't there an NDA or something for that? 😂 That was crazy!
These always get my creative juices flowing. Thanks Ed! Spellfire was formative for me and I just recently found another copy! I'll keep in mind that Manshoon should be more present in it
I always saw Mystra as a good deity who has to do an impartial job regarding magic. So she does good where she can but ultimately has to abide by her job description or AO will replace her. And the replacement might not be very nice at all, so better to do as much good as you can without breaking the rules than let someone else screw it up. That's how I see her anyway, and even if all she does is just maintain and protect the Weave, ultimately that's a great act of good in and of itself.
As a new visitor to the realms, this interpretation sounds a lot what transpires during the Avatar crisis. Especially during The Trial of Chris the Mad, where Mystra and Kelemvor wrestle with their roles as gods coming into conflict with their mortal sensibilities.
Ed! Love you man, read your whole Waterdeep guide a few years back when I ran the 5e Dragon Heist campaign for the new kids. I Ike the salt, piss, and vinegar. 😅 edit: and that Waterdeep box set was a work of beauty. I miss that enormous map of the city.
This video is a great one! Like all of this channels videos are! I love being able to hear about the Realms from Ed's perspective, so much so I subbed to your Patreon, literally something I've thought about so much more than I care to admit! 🤣 So many times I've been in the middle of reading one Ed's books, or lore that he has contributed to, where I get lost in thought wondering how he thought this stuff up and how awesome it would be to pick his brain on all the many many questions I've had over the last 20+ years!
adventure idea: The cult: Daughters of Manshoon. a coven of witches, trying to establish influence, or a new guild. They are all real daughters of Manshoon, due to the clones…
Ed Greenwood is one of the people whose life I wish I could have. As in, so we all have it. :) A life where I sit back and tell people all the weird shit I make up and they want to listen, and I can still make a living.
Heh. You think I make a living at this? I've had a full-time day job since 1978, and still do, and it has almost nothing to do with gaming. (I work in public libraries.)
@@edgreenwoodofficial Well, I know folks who do live off of their creations. Either way, your creative spirit is really infectious and inspiring and I love to listen to anything of yours.
Can you release Spellfire as it was originally supposed to be? It was one of the first fantasy books I ever read, along with lord of the rings and R.a.'s crystal shard. That would be glorious.
I did steal Manshoon. He is just so much fun as a bad guy, the whole "I only care about myself" but he has loves, and Mystra loves him, makes him real. In my world there are three left (after "my" Manshoon wars). One the vampire lord. One the "real" Manshoon. One that has joined the good guys, though they still don't trust him. All three found a way to bestill the compulsion to kill one another. Separately. Thank you for him. Shoot Mr. Greenwood, thank you for everything you do.
Or a dragonshoon. I feel like him turning into a dragon male is more likely than staying as a female to brith his own half dragon child. Too much personal risk for him in the latter I’d guess
Hello Ed! I loved this video. Thanks for your lore and insight. In the same vein as mad mages... would you be willing to do a video on Halaster Blackcloak the master of Undermountain himself? 🤘😎 Having previously unknown knowledge about him would be AMAZING! 😁
That is the kind of direction D&D should be going…!! Deep lire development, instead of focussing on character subclass abilities, bonus action economy and other mechanics that detract feom what makes game great… its Lore!
How did Northlanders and ffolk conquere the whole utter east? The distance from Sea of Swords to great sea and the golden water is insanly far away from sword Coast. Did they have magic ships? What is the situation in those knightly countries?
...murders brother just to be in charge, then that's followed with " Quote unquote villains" If someone murders a sibling just to feel in charge (he could have started his own group without murdering anyone), I ask you what possible criteria for being a villain is lacking?
Manshoon's older brother was to inherit the family fortune and be head of the family. The adventure trip was likely the planned time to kill his brother.
@@maverickman6486 I didn't know about that before Ed mentioned it and it is one of my vices that I comment before finishing the video. Still, killing for money is also what we would call EVIL and something that a villain would do. If he had enough money to be idle rich, he could have still started his own group. I'm saying there were options other than being evil. The only way he could have killed his brother without being evil was if it were truly in self-defense.
@@Z1gguratVert1go Well, Manshoon IS evil. Both in deeds and alignment. Manshoon killed his brother for the family fortune and title. Another group would not give him that. Is it right? no.
The real question is if he had the audacity to graft the family -shoon name on his dragon child. The mental image of manshoon transforming into a - probably, given his tendecy to hang out with them - black dragon & fluttering his dragon eyelashes at the strapping dragon lady who's come to ravish him
There are many Manshoons! Have you had one affect your home game?
Not yet, but my plan (at least three years old) has been to let Manshoon be one of the major masterminds when the cities around the Moonsea are in trouble because of Bane priests, wizards of Thay and, well, Manshoon(s).
Yes, a couple times. Were they the same Manshoon? My players will never know.
he was monologuing at my sorcerer so I subtle spell animated his bed and had it grapple him, his attempts to teleport away kept getting counterspelled, the DM justt had him curse his hubris and promise that he'd be back
There is an older clone of Manshoon making headway in the cult of the Dragon in my campaign he hasn't made himself known yet but he's there pulling strings
Had Manshoon as the villain for one of my groups as they played through Waterdeep: Dragon Heist. He managed to steal the gold out from under the pcs and while they took a rest he visited their tavern, kidnapped the street urchins they had adopted, and then blew the tavern up. They then discovered that he had sent the kids to slavers in Skullport 3:-)
Listening to Mr. Greenwood tell and explain stories is mesmerizing.
It really is bro
Sounds like Manshoon might have used shapechange to mate with a dragon *as* a dragon, producing a full-blooded dragon daughter rather than a half-dragon. That would be hilariously maniacal if so.
I am calling that the dragon in question is a blue.
Hearbreaking to hear how much of Ed's hard work was cut. Working as a writer by trade, I know how frustrating it is to do *all* that work and get nothing for it. What a pain.
Sometimes writers write too much, that's what editors are for.
Example: As much as I love the series, Wheel of Time is too damn long, with some of the later books feeling like complete filler.
Ed, I don't have many heroes that I look up to, but you're one of them. You're someone I'd love to meet one day, do a D&D one shot with, and just grab a beer. Keep being awesome man!
I'd love to chat over beer. Let's make that one-shot happen! Somewhere, somehow...
So Manshoon flipped off a deity and to drive the point home attacked her pet wizard? Charming indeed! 😄
Good to see the Master of the Greenwood again so soon ~ I always thought the Arch Wizard Manshoon, only level 16 in the Greybox days, was The Realms equivalent of Ernst Stavro Blofeld, and the Zhentarim his SPECTRE. The Clones just solidifies this.
THANK YOU BOTH for doing this series. and Thank You Mr. Greenwood for discovering My favorite place to live. Forgotten Realms forever.
Thank you so much for spending some time with us in the Realms!
I was caught off guard by this. I thought for sure the original Manshoon was dead.
Yeah, as far as I know there is the vampire mansion clone left. However, the original manshoon, being a 25th level wizard getting offed so easily didn't sit right with me. So I'm happy about the change. Manshoon is one of my favorite wizards in the realms, up there with the Netherese and Larloch.
Quite good lore on both Manshoon & the Zhents. Would be great to hear more about other organizations like the Kraken Society, Knights of the Shield, Eldreth Veluuthra, etc.
We need more Eldreth Veluuthra!
The Eldreth Veluthra formed the major antagonists in my 3.5e game for a while
Party was hired by Bhyrindar Tellynan to recover a box (containing his families moonblade)
Yes, it would! I will get to them as soon as I can (but it may be April or later; my life is PACKED right now).
These videos is like a mini session of Meet Elminster at Gencon back in the day.
I've always believed there were serious shades of Doctor Doom where Manshoon was concerned.
My players just defeated a clone of Manshoon and liberated Waterdeep after he took over. Love hearing more about him!
Watching Ed's videos is a surefire way to get my creativity flowing for writing campaign content.
Man I wish you would release the unedited version of Spellfire that sounds amazing.
bless you mr greenwood. i appreciate these videos so much. the lore you produce is such a great blessing to storytellers everywhere and i hope one day to be able to shake your hand in appreciation for your contribution to both the stories you've written for, and for your contribution to the stories we tell our friends.
It's a real shame so much of that book got cut. I'd love to see that version.
Would love a video about him talking about beholders.
I love this. I've been playing in the Realms since 88 and the grey box. I could talk to this guy for hours.
What do you think is the most overrated region of Faerun? Underrated? Overwritten? Under written?
@@adampender2482 Overrated and overwritten would be Neverwinter. That was fine for a few video games in the early 2000's but good grief they put a lot of story behind that place. Underwritten, the area just west of Cormyr. There's nothing there. There's Darkhold, then you have to go a long way to Scornubel. I think the most underated region is the High moor. It was the site of Miyeritar, I know that it was wiped out but did they have basements? All kinds of stuff to find.
@@markcampbell4080 thank you for your answer. I've been DMing 1st and 2nd edition AD&D for 41 years and I've never ran a campaign in Faerun although ive collected it since the release of the grey box. It was always in Mystara and Greyhawk. But my second group will be wrapping up their campaign by spring and I've started writing a Faerun campaign in Ravensbluff. I thought that was an underutilized area and wide open for development.
@@adampender2482 Oh heck yeah. That's an area totally ignored by the books and games. I always imagined those people spoke with thick eastern block accents and wore fur caps as they toiled away mining blood stone and waring with orcs. I always imagined Sembia (just across the water) has having French accents and wore too much perfume. Love it!. I don't play D&D anymore, not for a while. My players wanted to switch to Pathfinder. Their world is fun but I grew up with the Forgotten Realms.
@@markcampbell4080 I'm old (51) and set in my ways 😂 I have 41 years and THOUSANDS of dollars 💵 tied up in 1st and 2nd edition. I'm not switching systems. Ironically though, 5e players and PF2 players that come to my table eventually just move to AD&D even with their own groups. They find the limitations so to speak refreshing along with the lethality and slow burn of character development
I love the new sword coast, but I always fall back to old school forgotten realms settings. Cormyr, Dalelands, moonsea, Sembia, Darkhold, Mythdrannor, and of course, Waterdeep. Grew up reading spellfire and playin in campaigns around the places listed above. We often had run ins with Fzoul, Elmister, Symbol, and the like
I'm shocked he didn't shapeshift and mate with his own clone.
_"I can just kiss m'self!"_
How very Loki of him
He didn't do that because it'd be hyper-incest.
This man’s impact on pop culture and the fantasy genre is legit next level.
I love the Forgotten Realms. Manshoon is one of my favorite characters of the realms. Thank you for all of this.
Manshoon sounds like a retired doom rocker. Love it!🤘💀
“Consider Shape-Shift… Consider mating with a dragon…”
*Cuts to ad* 😤
Please tell me it was an ad for Hims
I've grown up with Forgotten Realms. I remember when they first hit the bookshelves and have bought them ever since. Grown up with authors, characters and spin offs. Love listening to Ed Greenwood and his lore.
Speaking of the Spellfire novel and beholders... That brought to mind the moment a beholder got in the crosshairs and pissed itself screaming before being neatly sliced in 2 heh.
This is one of my Favorite channels to sleep too.
Big fan, since the beginning of your career. Good stuff
I been binge listening to all the audiobooks and I love the Elminster Manshoon stuff.
Ed, why is Manshoon keeping his daughter chained up in the basement of his tower? What a jerk! LOL!
Oh, there's another tale we must tell some day.
I ran a game back in the 90s where the party was too low level to deal with Manshoon. The antagonist was Farshoon, nephew of Manshoon. I kept him just slightly higher level than the party, and every time they killed him, they ran into him again because uncle Manshoon had made a bunch of stasis clones for him.
Thank you Ed
Lots of bards are tuning their lutes after hearing about Manshoon´s daughter.
*manshoon pokes my brain* "i taste lilacs"
Wow, I'm sincerely surprised! I was not expecting you to reveal that real Manshoon is alive just like that. I did not even think that you CAN do that. I mean isn't there an NDA or something for that? 😂 That was crazy!
These always get my creative juices flowing.
Thanks Ed!
Spellfire was formative for me and I just recently found another copy! I'll keep in mind that Manshoon should be more present in it
Ed should have been the character model and voice for Elminster in Baldur's Gate 3
I always saw Mystra as a good deity who has to do an impartial job regarding magic. So she does good where she can but ultimately has to abide by her job description or AO will replace her. And the replacement might not be very nice at all, so better to do as much good as you can without breaking the rules than let someone else screw it up. That's how I see her anyway, and even if all she does is just maintain and protect the Weave, ultimately that's a great act of good in and of itself.
As a new visitor to the realms, this interpretation sounds a lot what transpires during the Avatar crisis. Especially during The Trial of Chris the Mad, where Mystra and Kelemvor wrestle with their roles as gods coming into conflict with their mortal sensibilities.
The Harpers hired me to locate Manshoon's daughter. Going to need more info :)
Ed! Love you man, read your whole Waterdeep guide a few years back when I ran the 5e Dragon Heist campaign for the new kids. I Ike the salt, piss, and vinegar. 😅 edit: and that Waterdeep box set was a work of beauty. I miss that enormous map of the city.
That's why you laminate it and put it on your wall...
Manshoon sees you when you're sleeping and knows when you're awake. Just like Santa.
This video is a great one! Like all of this channels videos are! I love being able to hear about the Realms from Ed's perspective, so much so I subbed to your Patreon, literally something I've thought about so much more than I care to admit! 🤣 So many times I've been in the middle of reading one Ed's books, or lore that he has contributed to, where I get lost in thought wondering how he thought this stuff up and how awesome it would be to pick his brain on all the many many questions I've had over the last 20+ years!
adventure idea:
The cult: Daughters of Manshoon. a coven of witches, trying to establish influence, or a new guild. They are all real daughters of Manshoon, due to the clones…
I really enjoy hearing to talk about D&D. It reminds me of when I first started playing!
Ed Greenwood is one of the people whose life I wish I could have. As in, so we all have it. :) A life where I sit back and tell people all the weird shit I make up and they want to listen, and I can still make a living.
Heh. You think I make a living at this? I've had a full-time day job since 1978, and still do, and it has almost nothing to do with gaming. (I work in public libraries.)
@@edgreenwoodofficial Well, I know folks who do live off of their creations. Either way, your creative spirit is really infectious and inspiring and I love to listen to anything of yours.
Can you release Spellfire as it was originally supposed to be?
It was one of the first fantasy books I ever read, along with lord of the rings and R.a.'s crystal shard.
That would be glorious.
Stephen King rereleases all the time.
And you are right up there with him.
In my opinion.
that would be so great! i regret profoundly the fact that we get only drizzt books, though i love those as well...
I did steal Manshoon.
He is just so much fun as a bad guy, the whole "I only care about myself" but he has loves, and Mystra loves him, makes him real.
In my world there are three left (after "my" Manshoon wars).
One the vampire lord.
One the "real" Manshoon.
One that has joined the good guys, though they still don't trust him.
All three found a way to bestill the compulsion to kill one another.
Separately.
Thank you for him. Shoot Mr. Greenwood, thank you for everything you do.
So Manshoon is a scaly? Well that tracks I guess.
So there is a Girlshoon.
Or a dragonshoon. I feel like him turning into a dragon male is more likely than staying as a female to brith his own half dragon child. Too much personal risk for him in the latter I’d guess
Hello Ed! I loved this video. Thanks for your lore and insight. In the same vein as mad mages... would you be willing to do a video on Halaster Blackcloak the master of Undermountain himself? 🤘😎 Having previously unknown knowledge about him would be AMAZING! 😁
The strings on the bass are sweet
20:54
So you're saying Manshoon took levels in bard? Gotcha, understood.
That is the kind of direction D&D should be going…!! Deep lire development, instead of focussing on character subclass abilities, bonus action economy and other mechanics that detract feom what makes game great… its Lore!
How did Northlanders and ffolk conquere the whole utter east? The distance from Sea of Swords to great sea and the golden water is insanly far away from sword Coast. Did they have magic ships?
What is the situation in those knightly countries?
I really like Sememmon being his true pet wizard. Clever guy.
Has this guy been around since 2nd Ed? I was young as he'll, but I only remember Fzoul Chembryl.
The mageling thing might seem wrong but it's always better to have 4 quarters than 100 pennies
Forget dracolich’s, sounds like that dudes doing some dracolicking.
One of my favorite villains
22:16 ...that means she watched him lay a dragon.
i would love to see Jorphdan chat with these two
WANT MORE MAN especially his kid
I always pronounced it as ZOWL not F-zool. always interesting to hear the creators pronunciation.
Very interesting information thank you
This is brilliant
This talk with Ed we had more depth of story than most movies in the past 5 years. Miss this in storytelling in all media.
I wonder if the Rick & Morty decoy-family episode was in any way inspired by Mashoon
PS. I really want to read the full uncut Spellfire series. :)
Does anyone remember when Manshoon killed a thief/assassin in one of the Knights of Myth Drannor? I am still trying to find it.
Will the real manshoon please stand up 🤘🏻
I love the channel in the show this is one of the greatest videos you’ve ever made! Has Ed ever talked to RUclips’s Mr. Welsh?
sorry for my english, i didnt catch - Manshoon in love with dragon or manshoon's daugter in love with dragon? thanks
Could I get more info on these short stories of yours? you mentioned "the long sword". Where can I find these publications?
So the eggs in the stasis in the Daggersdale...
3:35... Yep... That ! I always new Manshoon was a tool !
Is The Longsword story in print?
Well that daughter stuff was unexpected.
It is too bad you can't publish the uncut versions.
I've always prefered Hesperdan myself.
So actually the Mystra who offered Manshoon Choosen status was the one before Midnight's Mystra
I looked on Audible, and Ed's books are there, but he didn't narrate them. :(
Now we know it! Daughter!!!!
So Manshoon is kind of like the Realms equivalent of Junji Ito's Tomie?
Will he aim for lichdom one day though
Ahhh, and that's the question. Plan B, C, and D, always...
1:13 and others as "successful", depends on whether or not they cross someone that's too much for them when they're first getting established.
So He retired moved to Earth and renamed himself David Xanatos?
Ivan is so cute 😍 I could watch these two talk for hours
Isn't Ivan wonderful?
...murders brother just to be in charge, then that's followed with " Quote unquote villains"
If someone murders a sibling just to feel in charge (he could have started his own group without murdering anyone), I ask you what possible criteria for being a villain is lacking?
Manshoon's older brother was to inherit the family fortune and be head of the family. The adventure trip was likely the planned time to kill his brother.
@@maverickman6486 I didn't know about that before Ed mentioned it and it is one of my vices that I comment before finishing the video. Still, killing for money is also what we would call EVIL and something that a villain would do.
If he had enough money to be idle rich, he could have still started his own group. I'm saying there were options other than being evil. The only way he could have killed his brother without being evil was if it were truly in self-defense.
@@Z1gguratVert1go Well, Manshoon IS evil. Both in deeds and alignment. Manshoon killed his brother for the family fortune and title. Another group would not give him that. Is it right? no.
Is this going to show up on the Patron?
It's up now!
The real question is if he had the audacity to graft the family -shoon name on his dragon child.
The mental image of manshoon transforming into a - probably, given his tendecy to hang out with them - black dragon & fluttering his dragon eyelashes at the strapping dragon lady who's come to ravish him
How are a necromancer and Manshoon alike? If you killed them easily then they're not dead.
Why haven’t the beholders figured his plan and killed the original.
Wondering when he say Mystra, this is ex-Mystril or Midnight-Mystra ?
so mystra is voyeur into scalies?
DnD would be so much better if it were in such better and creative minds
It's Thanos, isn't it?
Original Manshoon sounds almost Larloch like in his backstage super manipulator
❤️
How'd this show up in my recommended?