Re-Barrel at 300? HOWA 1500 6mm Creedmoor Won't Shoot!
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2019
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This rifle won't shoot! In this video I walk through my criteria for a great rifle, and the steps I went through to diagnose what's going on with this rifle. I also cover what I'm going to do about it! Stay tuned for future updates on this rifle.
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That's a good looking rifle Gavin. I'm so glad you are sharing this project with us! I'm really excited to see more on this project! I also appreciate the level of detail you provide. Thanks for that! Can't wait to see your next video on this rifle!
I didn't read all of the prior comments, so I may be redundant. Front-to-back, check the crown, lap the barrel with Tubb's Final Finish full kit, check your lug contact, make sure you put the rifle in the Bravo stock according to KRG's instructions, check the scope rail screws, and dry-fire the rifle to see how much the sights hop when the firing pin falls. A burr in the bolt channel could introduce vibration. Make certain there's no contact between your foreend and the barrel. Yes, I have seen Howa rifles shoot like this, but every one tightened up with the barrel lapping. On the ammo side, load your Hornady 108's to 2.790". Disregard the jump. Use Hodgdon Benchmark powder and start with the lightest load you would shoot, increasing the load 0.4-0.5 grains per 5-shot group, up to the highest load you would shoot. I'd like to know how on earth you bedded the recoil lug in the KRG Bravo, since it's hanging free in space with no closed area beneath it to retain bedding compound.
Gavin your making me feel really good about my new Howa 1500 build
Well done Gavin. I think you are correct on your assumption of the barrel. I also think that the Brownells barrel is a good one. However a little under what you may be expecting out of this price range.I ENJOYED this in depth detail. Thanks
Absolutely no problems with my 1500s I have two. One in 6.5 creedmoor and one in 223 Both are tack drivers. 6.5 is in a chassis and 223 in a hogue. Have shot many 1/4 moa groups with both.
Really awesome Gavin , You continue to teach us all. As an old Weatherby fan I really like the Howa actions. Hope you update this.
i chambered up a 6brai for my buddy that was a consistent 5" rifle at 1000 meters he had cut it to 28" from 30" and it just fell in line great! 30 rounds to load test.and he's very happy.
I didn't think it would make a difference but it did
I have a first generation Weatherby Vanguard SS chambered in .300 Weatherby Mag. As you probably know, this is the same action used in the Howa 1500. Many years ago, I started the process of "accurizing" this rifle in an attempt to turn 1.5 MOA 5-shot groups into sub-MOA equivalents with Weatherby factory ammo. I used a new Bell and Carlson medalist stock with an aluminum bedding block to free float the barrel, bedded the action with DevCon epoxy and installed a Timney trigger. After observing little accuracy improvement and horrible SDs with the factory ammo, I did some load development with a few quality hunting bullets. During that process, I learned that Weatherby cartridges employ a generous amount of free bore and playing with seating depth is an exercise in futility. To make a long story short, I achieved my goal with bullets that are not jump sensitive (Nosler Accubond and Berger Classic Hunter) and by building an epoxy pressure pad in the fore end of the stock. It turned out that the wimpy barrel on the Vanguard needed that upward pressure to help stabilize it.
Got my first howa6.5 gren. Mini howa an it shot so good out of the gate almost everything under .5 . So impressed i got a howa bravo 6mmcm an have been fairly frustrated also. Would not shoot 103eldx under an inch, but 105horn hpbt shoot decent and getting better. About 400 rounds in with current load averages around .5
I think this issue is limited to the 6 Creed. I have a Howa 6.5 PRC and it's holding under 1/2 moa with factory match ammo. I've seen other guys with Howa's in 6.5 PRC or 6.5 Creedmore and they're shooting similarly tight groups.
I have owned a couple Howas. Both shot really great. One was a barreled action and the other was a Howa HCR in 6.5. The Howa hcr was the definition of consistent. Really smooth bolt, nice trigger etc etc. i should of kept that rifle but I have 4 other chassis rifles that shoot great. I put it on armslist just to see what kind of trade would pop up. I did so well on trading that I let it roll. I do miss shooting it sometimes.
It helps my groups if I keep a cheek weld while going through the firing all 5 shoots.
I bought a new 22-250 heavy barreled action, and it shot great for about 100 rounds. On bore scope inspection, the chamber was quite crooked and only slight throat erosion had exaggerated the issue. Also, almost every single howa/vanguard action only have 1 of the two bolt lugs contacting. I tore it down, blueprinted the action,(tons of thread taper in the receiver btw) and set the barrel back. After a proper re-chamber it is a 1/4” shooter at 100M. They use really good barrels, just cut corners on actions and chambering. Also barrels are often super tight on receivers. I think they spin and torque the barrels on the cnc. 2 cents
Thank you. I never thought so many little details went in to building rifles.
I went through a similar experience with a RPR 6.5 CM...groups averaged .7 @ 100 meters....Got Ryan from IBI to sent me a Prefit SS barrel, now sub .5
Sweet! You’ll LOVE the IBI barrel.
I have the same issue with the Hornady 108 ELD factory. Most groups are around 1 MOA, maybe a little less. I shot prime 107 and 115, both hold 1/2 MOA or better. The 115 for me was a really tight fit and really noticeable when ejecting, but still shoots 1/2 MOA all day. The 107 runs prefect in my setup and was getting 1/4 MOA at 200 yds. Running a Proof Research 6mm CM 7.5 twist, 26in, Tikka Action with KRG Bravo stock. Had my back up Nikon FX1000, (which is an awesome scope for the money). Had the same issue with Hornady and my 6.5 CM, just not as bad.
never had a howa, but i do have a 700 rem police factory rifle that i have shot 10 shot string with m118lr factory ammo, 0.7 inch groups at 100 yds. maybe unusual but it is consistent thru 1580 rounds. used it thru 2 two sniper schools and did very well.
I used a Howa 1500 as the basis of a 257 Roberts AI. The barreled action was a new 30-06 in stainless. The long action was chosen so that I had no problem with the magazine being too short for ammo loaded with 120 grain pills. Unfortunately it only has shot the three rounds I used to check chamber dimensions.
I have a TC encore that does the exact same thing and the funny thing is it has a lot of free bore just like your rifle. I've tried light bullet all the way to heavy bullets all different powders and charge weights along with different factory ammo with the same outcome no less then 1.25 inch groups
Set the barrel back recut were your on the lands and in the magazine, try an harmonic brake from Brownells that you can twist tune
yeah that throat is too long, ive set back barrels before but like you concluded eliminate the variable and get a known good barrel.
but chasing .5 moa too shoot prs isnt necessary. ive placed top 10 shooting a 1 moa or worse load. but that's half the fun tinkering around with load and gun.
Just sent a rifle back to Savage because of similar situation . The best I could get was 1 1/4 inch group at 100 yards. 6 different bullets- 3 different brands of brass -6 different powders- 3 different factory ammunition. Changed the stock to a wood laminated it came with a plastic stock. If they don’t help with it guess I will be buying a barrel. Thanks for your videos and information
Same problem too. I have a howa 1500 in 6mm cm and have almost the same distance to the lands. I’ve only put 200 rounds in so we will see if I start experiencing inconsistencies soon.
It takes a rifle like this to make you appreciate your other rifles more. The 300 Win mag compass gives me fits and I should have put it down long ago, but I can pick up my RPR in 6mm Creedmoor and its a hole puncher. If I do my part its is easily 1/2 MOA. Now the 6.5 creedmoor RPR I have is getting wore out and I am starting to think about re-barreling it. Good Luck.
You hit the nail on the head :)
Bar. Love your stuff
@@JPsaysno thanks!
Have you contact Howa to see what their standard chamber deminsions to lands are? I'm interested to see what level of support they are willing to provide.
I'm having the same issue with my 20" Brownells barreled action in .308. It does shoot the Nosler 175 CC very well. Still trying.
I just picked up a RPR with LRI barrel. I look forward to seeing the reloading video.
Wish I would have seen this review 2 days ago before I ordered one for myself after seeing you mod this one out!!!!!! =(
I own 3 howas and they all shoot sub moa all day. This is not common and howa guaranties their rifles to shoot sub minute . Im really surprised he hasn't contacted howa.
You won't be disappointed.
Can't wait for updates on this project.
Justin Berwick Check this out: facebook.com/141365545892394/posts/2791005537595035?sfns=mo
My Weatherby Vanguard in 257 WBY which is the same action shoots 1" groups out to 200 yards all day in a sporter barrel. but i know the weatherby cartridges usually favor a bit a jumps so not sure.
Alot of variables with ammo there. I recently built a 6mm creed on ar10 platform with an x-caliber barrel and it loves Berger ammo. I wouldn't argue hornady match as being quality but don't think there is better boxed ammo than the Berger. Interested to see how your reamer project works, think you are on the right track.
Be careful, my Howa 1500 receiver was super soft. I rebarreled it to 22BR and shoots like a dream. I did re-cut the action threads from the factory M26x1.5 to 1.0725 x 16 TPI, trued rcvr face, bolt lugs and face. Good luck!
Thanks for the heads-up!
I have a howa 1500 Mini Action 222-remington and it shoots consistent sub. 4" with handloads of just about everything ive put through it, my 300 win mag likes the 180 nosler bt's and 168 hornady amax sub. 5"
Do you realise that 30 years ago a 1/2 MOA rifle required $5000 and a custom build. Expectations for a factory rifle have far exceeded what typically can be delivered.
0.5 MOA is my personal goal, rifle should do ~0.7 MOA, it doesn't. So I'm re-barreling. I'm not upset about it. It's what I wanted from the beginning really.
@@Ultimatereloader I completely understand that. What I'm getting at is expecting that kind of accuracy from a factory gun let alone a cheep factory gun. I think your expectations are a bit unrealistic. But that said Very good work on the videos, Very good craftsmanship on machine operation. especially for an engineer. :p Keep up the good work very much ejoyed.
Ive had a lot of 1/2 moa winchester model 70s and ruger 77s 25 to 30yrs ago. None of them were over $1000
It very well may be the barrel - however all the benchrest guys I talk to at matches say not to move your head from the stock in between shots. The best 5 shot groups I get are when I don’t move a muscle and feed from the magazine. But looks like you shoot some killer groups with your other rifles so I’m likely wrong 😂
Typically I can shoot 0.3 MOA groups at 200 yards with my Tikka.
I have an fntsr in .308. I have a friend that developed a load for me. He asked me what I wanted for bullets and speed. I told him I wanted 168 grain sierra bthp s at 2700. Thats what we started on and I had groups that measured 2 inches. What we ended up doing was moving the bullets out to just touch the rifling. That made a world of difference. It went from 2 inches to covering five shots with a dime at 100 yards.
Have you considered "setting the bbl back"? You shorten the bbl by removing material at the breech end then use your custom reamer to get exactly what you want in jump with a particular projectile at 2.800: OAL.
I decided that if I'm going to put the time into working on the barrel, I'd like to have a match-grade barrel!
I have a Howa 1500 in 6.5 Creedmoor on Oryx Chassis and have had very similar results. First I started with Hornady 147gr ELD Match and it was terrible I was up at Front Line Defense with the owner Paul Smith taking the intro to long range class which is excellent BTW. But even with him behind the gun the best he got was about a softball sized MOA @ 100yds with the 147gr. left the class and rescheduled with the owner thinking it was my scope not tracking. Replaced the optic and returned 2 weeks later and got the same result. He suggested we go to 140 ELD match and it did tighten up. to maybe 2 MOA. Took the Class and as he predicted I struggled out past 800 yards. I have also decided to re barrel. just trying to decide which barrel to go with.
Which barrel did you go with and did you get a tighter shooting setup?
Too expect .5 in, from a factory barrel, might be a little over expectant. It does happen, and it has happened to me. Although the fatory rifle barrel quality of today, has come a long way, you must consider that you are paying a minute of deer price. I love the action, and properly trued, and assembled with decent components, you should happy with the outcome.
Picked up a shotout Weather by Vanguard with a shotout barrel for$300. Only reason I picked it up, was it had a 6x24 Leopold, on Conetrol rings and bases, McMillan stock, and a sweet ,1 1/2lb trigger. Had a fancy cobra sling and two boxes of Nosler reloads. No case.
I have the same exact problem with my howa 1500 (300 winmag) sitting in a mdt lss chassis topped with a leupold mark 4 scope. I have bedded the recoil lug, tried 3 different brakes, and have tried various bullets from 160 - 225 (hornady, smk, tmk, berger), r-23/H1000 powders in various weights and I cannot get better than 0.9 moa. Which is funny because I also have another Howa 1500 in 6.5 Creedmoor sitting in a ABA chassis which will not shoot groups groups over .5"...the best is .15" shooting hornady 140 gr eld-m loaded in starline brass loaded with 41.7 gr of H4350. I am thinking about rebarreling the action but I will wait for your follow up video to see how yours shoot.
You have the good methods, you'll find the solution for sure. Lets wait and see 👍
Thanks!
I have been having the absolute worst experience with my 300 winmag howa 1500. I am by no means even close the level of experience and knowledge this gentlemen is but I have tried multiple rounds and cant even get it under a 3” group at 200 yards. Houge stock it comes with is trash. Anyone wanting a cheap rifle sub moa? I recommend kimbers cheap line the hunter. I have had good luck with that rifle and love the accuracy it comes with out of the box. Also my main use for these rifles are big game hunting in Alaska not competition. Awesome video sir! I have been weighing my options on what to do and this saves me time and money on my next step for my Howa.
Sometimes some rifles just won't work. I had the same problem with my Mossberg ATR. The internet experts held fast to say its my shooting.... Currently rebarreling it with a Douglas #8 1-10 XX barrel. Check out Preffered Barrel Blanks. West Desert Shooter just did the vortex challenge with a 6mm Creedmoor using this barrel. I just looked at one in a TC encore. The barrels are mirror finish and shoot great!
Thanks Kenny! Yes, sucks when a rifle won't shoot, but that's why we have lathes, right? :) I'm looking into preferred, would love to compare notes.
I have a howa 1500 in 6.5 and it has by far exceeded my expectations. I recently picked up a 1500 in 6mm creed with the krg bravo stock. I am having the same issues with incontinence groups. Factory hornady ele match is ok. It will not group under 1.5 moa with eld-m. The berger vld hunting is starting to show promise maybe. I have noticed that this barrel really likes to copper foul. I can maybe get 20 rounds down the pipe before groups start to open up. I am starting to think along the same lines and that the barrel may be the issue
Im with everyone else. Pull the barrel set it back chamber it and try it. Wont hurt anything being your buying a new barrel anyways and also people could learn if that helps or not.
Freebore of about 15 thou should work, try a berger 108 or 105 running about 2950 fps with a slow powder and see if you can tune the load. But yes, the factory barrel could be the problem. I have a 6x47 running at 3120fps gets 1/3 moa from a 30 inch barrel. I use 2213sc which is like 4831, lightly compressed load. I am guessing here but about 42gr 4831 and a 108 berger jumping 10-20 thou. Start under and work up 40,41, 41.5 etc. a full case of slow powder is best.
Crap! I just built off this exact action/barrel combo from Howa. I hope it shoots better than that. Kinda worried now. Haven't tested yet but 🤞. Mdt acc chassis with a vortex razor on top.
I've been shooting 6mm Creedmoor for a couple seasons now and every 100 rounds your chamber burns on average 6 thousand of throat. So you will have to continue to chase the lands for the life of that barrel. They usually are toast after 75 thousand of throat erosion. Awsome videos.
Thanks, makes me want to start with a shorter freebore! (JGS is providing a custom reamer)
I've had a brand new rifle that just didn't shoot anything but a specific handload. 223 Wylde, 16", 1:8 twist. I tried every factory ammo I could which averaged 1moa at best. I tried handloading with various weight and type projectiles and the only thing that grouped well was 77gr Lapua Scenars. I ended up getting a 20", 1:9 twist barrel from a local barrel maker and now it shoots 69gr SMK's at 0.5moa and 55gr Blitzkings at 1moa which fits my target and hunting needs well.
The quest for an accurate rifle/load can be a long journey, good thing we both handload!
Just got this exact rifle today on a trade. The Howa action is actually a Weatherby action because Howa makes the Weatherby Vanguard.
I totally feel you. I went through the same thing with a Bergara HMR. It was not consistent. It shot identical to how your Howa is shooting. Thought it was a fluke so I bought another one to try it. It was the same way. Sold both. Moved on.
Join the crowd !
Same prob with a heavy varmint in 243 1and a half inch groups, was sent to 3 diffrent gunsmiths and then back to howa no chage, very disappointed, scraped it for a tikka 243
I bought a 243WIN ARMALITE AR10T back in the late 90's for shooting matches with. I loved it, little recoil, and shoot great; that is until I've shot 500 rounds through, burning out the barrel! The groups opened up badly by then and ended up rebarreling it with a 260 REM barrel!
I suspect 6mm barrels actually typically can have high round counts through them as hunting rifles because you're only firing one or two shots at a time. But in shooting matches you're running strings of fire of 20 rounds or more in rapid secession in your courses of fire; rapidly heating up and burning out the bores.
Blueprint the action as well when you add the new barrel.
I think your reasoning is spot on, believe it or not this is a feel good video for me. I almost bought a HOWA, but ended up buying a Savage 110 Tactical. The lands for the 108g ELDM is at 2.82". I'm still doing load development, but it shoots .6 moa with cheap Hornady Black and the first findings with 4350/108g are very promising with single digits SDs above 3000fps and below .5 moa. I think with fine tuning (seating and charge) I can get it to shoot .3 or better.
Congrats on your factory rifle performance!
My 6 creed shoots fabulous. Berger 105 with h4350. Current barrel is a Schnieder. When its time I will get a Broughton.
Nice!
Meticulous, 😎 can't wait to see the followup videos!
Thank you for episode! Quick question: KRG Wisky 3 or MDT ACC for PRS and Longe range?
It sounds like the barrel is chambered to CIP chamber specs? Supposedly CIP chambers have a longer throat, and so they shoot more ammo well, or rather aren't particularly sensitive with ammo. Where as SAAMI chambered rifles tend to favor certain ammunition and therefore with handloading like ammo close to the lands.
I own a Howa in .270, and it shoots everything 1 MOA or better, really the federal trophy stuff is almost always 1/2 MOA.
I know McGowen started producing "Howage" pre-fit barrels. I'd like to do that myself. Any chance you'll grab a barrel from them in the future?
Did you look at the throat alignment to the bore ? I've had several howa's that were out by the full height of the lands.....they didn't shoot either.
Have you considered buying a no throat reamer and a separate throating reamer ? You can then set the chamber to suit any bullet and magazine length.
I have built several Howa 1500s and they are excellent actions, however many of them need work on the locking lugs and need to be lapped or turned even, also make sure the form of the action is square to the barrel, I have had many that just need a little Lathe work to tighten them up.
Someone pointed out that the Howa action is unique in the front action screw being located in the recoil lug. That person had the same scenario with mediocre accuracy, so he loosened the action screws, then snugged them finger tight. Then the rear screw was torqued to spec. The front screw was given under spec torque by a bunch, and every time he shot a group, he’d tighten that front screw some more, eventually finding the node and torque setting to arrive at .2-.3 like he was expecting. Some gunsmiths claim the action is made so accurately, that there was no need to machine anything like the bolt face, lugs, etc.
I have a hell of 1500 heavy barrel fluted in 308 and it shoots .2 Moa from the factory With S and b 180 grand round nose soft point. It shoots everything else under 1 inch but those for some silly reason are the best I don’t know why I haven’t worked it out
Had a howa made weatherby vanguard varmint special series 2 in .308 sitting in a bedded Boyd’s stock. Would shoot on a good day 1 moa for the first year/500 rounds. The next year I bought 500 pieces of hirtenberger fmj surplus and put her through a extended break in, got her down to 1 moa consistent. In the next year I found that a 175 Barnes lrx would shoot 3/4 moa as with a 125 accubond. Sold the rifle to a gentleman and the first load he tried was a 150 federal powershok.......one of the few factory loads I never tried......1/2 moa all damn day long. After selling the gun I bought a Sako a7 roughtech that I was having consistency problems with. I could take my fathers ruger m77 .308 to the range the same day and shoot 3/4 moa all day with a completely relaxed posture. The Sako would throw mild flyers opening up every what would be sub 1/2 moa group into 1 moa groups. Finally after nearly 1000 rounds of load development I tried some hot as fuck cfe223 loads and braced for impact when I pulled the trigger.....3/8 moa. Then I tried mild loads but I got tight as all hell, not relaxed, 3/8 moa. I got another shooter behind the gun and told him shoot the first 5 shot group as normal and then the next five get tight, same result. Sometimes even if we are perfect in our technique, for whatever reason the rifle doesn’t like how we shoot it. I have shot MANY rifles with a relaxed technique and got them to 1/2 moa for at least the first 300 yards. Yes I understand bedding may be a issue with my Sako but I think we need to explore the idea that the human variable may actually effect harmonics
I have the same issues with airguns even two that are the same brand and caliber one wants to be held snug and the other very lightly
hmmmm, an immediate accuracy increase when someone else shoots the gun. hmmmmm
Any firearm will shoot better with different types/brands of ammo. My story: Rifle is a Rem 700 in .308, the Sendero model. I've worked up a hand load that shoots 3/4 moa or better depending on me (the user matters too!) on any given day. I also shoot factory ammo and when that ELD 178grn precision hunter ammo came out, had to try it! Keep in mind, same gun, cleaned like I usually do, same scope, same range (nice day!), same user. I wasted money on that ELD 178grn precision hunter ammo, best I did was 1.5" at 100yds. Maybe it's not stabilizing at 100yds? (1:10 twist shoots other 165-180grn bullets under 1" too). But that 150 federal powershok shot under 1" and the cheapest Perfecta at wally world shot right at 1".
Makes me laugh cause I had rifle that shot all premium loads about 1.5" but damn thing would win an accuracy competition with remmington core loks lol
Actually those basic core loks shoot crazy accurate out of several of my rifles.
I'd use it for hunting for anything 300 yds and under
I'd consider the MDT 12rd mag without a binder plate. Or even just try seating them long and single feeding them to see if the barrel is worth salvaging/cutting back.
Considering chucking a 224 valkyrie barrel from criterion for my Origin. Only used one powder but no other combos will give anything consistent. Sucks
Maybe your break, or your loads, I'm no competition shooter, but I have almost same hole 3/8" 7 shot groups at 100. Mine is also a Howa 1500, 6mm, 24" factory barrel, withe the bravo stock, and a arken on top in Steiner rings. That's all I have in mine, and it's fantastic. I've found on a 7 shot group at 600 with minimal wind, I'm getting a 2 5/8 group. Never have I been able to shoot this way at these distances with this kind of superior accuracy.
Gavin. I hope you read this. I consider myself an experienced reloaded. My practice is benchrest and fclass. 6mm creedmoor is dead to me. I have a 28in 1-7 twist CBI barrel on trued savage model 12. That damn thing won't shoot a group of 1/2in either. I have over 300 shots and a binder of targets like you. Tried all the bullets you did and several powders. I'm using lapua brass and cci br primers. I'm going back to target archery. Lol
I also got myself a howa 6 Creed barrelled action and I’ve never been able to get it down to half Moa consistently.
It’s Pillar and glass bedded in a Boyd’s laminate stock.
Tried 87 vmax in lapua brass plus hornady brass, tried loads from 39gr right to around 44gr nothing under half moa, retried loads that I thought showed promise only to show the same or worse results.
Tried 108eldms, 40gr to 42gr, 1 moa at best, retested around the 41.5gr mark and no better.
Loaded at 2.800 and 20thou off lands.
Tried 107smk’s from 40gr to 42 and nothing sub moa
I’ve got around 800 rounds through it now, over half of that has been from trying to find a load for it, I should’ve known better and stopped ages ago...
Probably just gonna rebarrel it and get a much shorter freebore
My Hoawa 1500 6mm Creedmoor shot 4 shots in the same hole plus 1 bullet 0.5" higher 108gr ELD-M over 41.8gr H4350
Recent Howas have been inconsistent in accuracy . I’ve been buying Howa rifles for over two decades and they seem to have more accuracy issues nowadays. I don’t know if it’s a result of worn tooling or increased production rates but it seems like you either get a good one or one that nothing but a new barrel will fix.
Thats fucking nonesense Howas are guaranteed 1 MOA people are idiots. This is literally a 1 moa or sub moa $500 rifle made in Japan.
It is a known issue the saami freebore spec for 6mm Creedmoor is too long at .183 inches. A more reasonable freebore for shooting 115 DTAC's and hybrids is in the .110 to .120 range. This will allow for closer seating to lands, ability to chase as the throat grows and eliminate magazine length concerns.
The issue with choosing the correct freebore is now factory Hornady ammo will no longer be an option, as the bullet will be jammed in the lands and give high pressure. I would not use factory ammo as the guide for your reamer as they are loaded per saami spec. Instead load the longest bullet you plan to shoot and still allow room in your magazine. You will see you will end up with a suggested freebore of ~.110, like other 6mm calibers!
If you want to use factory ammo, use .183 saami freebore. If you reload, use shorter.
Regardless, you are making the correct decision to rebarrel. Even with the long jump plenty of factory 6 Creeds shoot under 1/2 moa.
I have a Howa 1500 in 300 Win Mag. Results are similar to yours average at best 1.25MOA. The gun hates Federal Gold Medal Match ammo which shocked me. To get the bullets to touch the lands they wouldn't fit the magazine. Trying to decide to keep working with it, rebarrel, or sell.
Gavin I have a a question, and I did watch the whole video so sorry if I missed the answer :) You mentioned that you were measuring a big jump (0.060") after you started having accuracy problems with the rifle. It sounds like you measured this jump based on a bullet seating that left a reasonable amount of bearing surface in the cartridge. Did you measure the jump initially when the round count was lower? If so, what was it?
By the way, good video. I am chasing a strange issue on a 224V AR-15 right now that was shooting really well and then went to crud on my last trip to the range. I am going through it right now for sources of error (like you did here) and you (and some of the commenters) gave me ideas on a couple of things to check. I am not giving up on the barrel yet since it is a custom McGowen barrel with less than 200 rounds through it.
Hey Gavin,get a tikka!. I have never seen a howa shoot constantly. MY tac a1 is between. 3 and .5 moa all day long !. My t3x tac a1 in 6.5 can hang with my cousins MPA rifle.I have shot 1 hole groups on numerous occasions.
I SAME PROBLEM WITH MY HOWA 1 INCH GROUPS 6.5 CREED .... LONG THROAT TO LANDS .. I HAVE bottom metal on my howa i can extend the bullet more than mag feeder ....tighter groups 1/2 in.... Would love to see barrel swap I like the howa action But..like you, I invested a lot of money and time.. Thank you for some very informative videos
Gavin, have you ever used puff-lon filler in conjunction with flat based bullets?
I've been looking into reloading with monolithic copper bullets such as Barnes TTSX. Their recommendation is for quite a large jump to the lands. They might have been a solution for you?
I have a howa mini action 6.5 grendel with the same problem. No consistency with handloads or factory ammo. It really only functions as a hunting rifle out to maybe 200yds.
That sounds like my savage axis, except add 1/2” to the groups.
I bought a Howa 1500 Hera H7 in 6.5 Creedmoor last year. Up to that time I was shooting a Savage 12FV in 6.5 and it was holding 1/3rd moa if I did my part but I was looking for something a little more comfortable and a replacement stock was $450+. I picked up the Howa for $700, mounted my Vortex 6x24x50 on it and after a short break-in with my handloads it was shooting 1/3rd moa out of the box. I've managed to tighten that up a little over the summer with a best of 1.065" 5 shot group at 330 yards, with a little load development and brass work I hope to tighten that up even more. This is my second Howa, the first being a 555 in 308, those rifles can shoot. I would really like to see what you find out with that rifle and if there is a difference with a new barrel.
I had the stryker 5-50 and it was defective. Probably a 10 degree crooked reticle and parallax issues
What does the Crown look like?
I had a very similar issue with same caliber. And Ivwas about to send my barrel off to be rebarreled.And a guy told me check the crown.There could be a nick o some imperfection. Sure enough there was.This was it.I took a file and Dremel and tried to fix it.It shot better but still not close enough
I bought a new barrel and as they say Wha-Laa. .I was better than 1/2 MOA...and really that's as good as I can shoot.
I would really love to see how you got the factory howa barrel off. I have a brand new barrel waiting but I haven't been able to get the factory barrel off.
try some barnes bullets which so ive heard require a huge jump to be accurate.
I was considering buying a Howa 1500 until I saw this. My 6.5 Crdmr RPR shoots .75" with Hornady 147 Grain ELD-M. Think I'll just stick with that since I'm not a competitor.
I have had pretty great results from my 6.5 Grendel mini action, but my .223 mini action doesn't shoot nearly as well.
As my round count climbs in a shooting session, my chamber gets hotter and hotter. Even if I use non-temperature sensitive powder, I have to be careful not to chamber a round and then let it "cook" while I prepare to shoot. I also have learned that my barrel is very sensitive to copper build up (not sensitive to carbon). I now remove copper fouling after every range trip. Finally, I was able to eliminate 1/4 MOA from my group by meticulously adjusting parallax so my point of aim never moved. Not saying any of this is what is happening to you, I guess I just want to participate! I really look forward to the re-barrel as a new barrel video. Factory barrels are no match barrels! One more thing, is the bore on your HOWA concentric to the barrel at the chamber AND muzzle (i.e. at both ends)?
What do you think of the 6.5 mm Barnes 127gr Lrx BT?
I had to send my Howa 1500 .308 barreled action back to Legacy for exactly the same reason...they could not do better than 1.5" groups with it with Federal Gold Medal Sierra match kings (I did better but not by much)...It took over 5 months to get my new barreled action and I have yet to do their cumbersome barrel break in process and test this new one...not feeling optimistic after this. Also for my initial handloads I just went with magazine length and not COAL because the throat on these things seem ridiculously deep...I was getting HUGE COAL measurements using the Hornady gauge...have not check the new one yet.
did they pay for the shipping to send it to them? I am having same issue w/ howa 308, 26". In an XLR 3.0 chassis and grouping seems to be inconsistent.
@@Andrew-ip3yi shipping to them...no. Shipping back to me after months of delay...yes.
Have your chamber reamer built throatless (cut no rifling ahead of the neck). Then use a stand alone throating reamer to cut the lead as you want. PTG built me a setup like this for 264 LBC as I was going to try bore rider bullets. Bore rider did not work out, but I was able to cut a short lead so 120 SMKs just touched the lands at a OAL of 2.240". This rifle shoots .5" all day. I wish I could shoot that well all day. BHW 3 groove barrel, they chambered it with my PTG throatless reamer, and I set the lead myself by hand. Now I have over 2000 rounds through the barrel so the 120 SMK does not touch the lands until an OAL of 2.265". I just advance the OAL of the cartridge to match the wear. When the accuracy falls off I will cut three threads off the chamber end of the barrel and recut the chamber and lead.
I like the separate throat reamer idea- I'll do that with a future project...
Just a thought... I have a Howa that had only one bolt lug with good contact and shooting around one inch. After lapping the lugs the rifle was shooting about half inch. Only gained about .0015" in headspace. Easy fix when reloading.
Thanks Howard- I'm planning to check/fix that when I re-barrel!
Both my Remington 700 .308’s, one is a 20inch 5r barrel and the other is a 20 inch AACSD and they have 200 thousandths of O.A.L. over what is the standard 2.8 inch O.A.L. if I want to touch I have to have a 3 inch O.A.L. cartridge length. Both of the rifles how ever shoot 3/8- 1/2 inch groups when I’m doing my part.
I have an older Howa 1500 .223 that has excessive freebore. I have to seat the bullets out way past them functioning from the internal magazine to get anywhere near touching the lands or having a reasonable jump which forces me to single load. That being said with cheap 55gr Hornady SPs and 25gr WC844 I've shot .19" groups on several occasions. I've considered pulling the barrel and rechambering for .223AI and fixing the freebore issue but it does shoot good now and for my purposes (ground squirrels) the magazine is really not that important. I doubt that rebarrelling was absolutely necessary in your case when you could pull the barrel take .07" off the shank and rechamber it while setting the freebore where you like it.
I saw this barreled action on clearance sale at Brownells a while back. Was tempted but somewhat suspicious about the price..
Well, any updates yet while using the new barrel?
When you mentioned possible Copper fouling, What are your thoughts on Copper Equilibrium? I read an article about it and since haven't cleaned my MPA 6.5CM barrel in 700 rds and it still shoots 3/8MOA!! I'll run 2 dry patches every 60 rds that's it! Using Hornady 140ELDs.
Thanks, Mike.
I've talked to a couple guys with Howa rigs that swear by it. The one guy did a thorough defouling job and the groups opened up slightly. 10-15 rounds later, the groups tightened back up and stayed consistent.
Why not set the shoulder back and rechamber
Do you always load to sammi spec? The beauty of reloading is being able to play with different c.o.a.l and components. I load to what the rifle likes and buy mags according. Accurate magazine are nice as they will let you seat to 2.88 for a standard short action.
I've tried all sorts of bullet seating depths with this setup, and ran out of case neck bearing surface!
I got a Howa 1500 yeas ago. It's shoots consistent at just over an inch regardless of ammo. I want to rebarrel it too but it's consistent. I just wish it was holding smaller groups. It's hunting good but I want more.
Forgot to mention that I was told Howa have metric threads. And the lathe are all imperial operations. So not sure how to get around that one as of yet..