What a like about the ramp test is that I don’t dread taking it. So I’m far more likely to test, or retest, to get a data point every 3-4 weeks coming off a recovery week.
So 25 years ago when I applied for a racing license in Belgium we had a mandatory annual fitness test - the Conconi test. It was basically a ramp test on an ergometer bike. The doctor would perform the test and measure our power, HR and blood lactate. It seems like the Sufferfest ramp test is mostly similar in methodology and the purpose of the 20' block serves as a verification point.
I did my 4DP and the Half Monty - my FTP is a bit higher based on the Half Monty but then i guess it is because i'm not as tired as the 4DP. Both good though and i really like Sufferfest, made some big gains within a year and now my wife is also on it.
I’ve just tried the ramp test because it’s much more appealing than the full test! I’m one of the people you mention where the estimated values are unrealistic… I think I’m aerobically fit but not very strong, so the numbers it guesses for my 5 second power and 1 minute are numbers I could only dream of! The 5 second power is about 20% higher than anything I’ve ever recorded
Interesting. I am 66 and just started back riding after 20 years last June. I bought a Wahoo kickr and bought a subscription To SYSTM. My first test was the 4DP and ftp was 164 watts. 12 weeks latter did another 4DP test and ftp was 184 watts. 8 weeks latter I tried the half monty and ftp was 202 watts. I can't imagine having a ftp level like yours. I hope time isn't running out for me to continue to gain. But I will try. As far as which test is more accurate, I think the 4DP test is more through and the half monty gives a little higher power output.
Good video, thanks for uploading it! I'm using Wahoo X and am kinda put off the 4DP, I tried doing the Half Monty a couple of weeks after getting my Snap and it all seemed to be going too easy, the problem was I'd been using RGT all the time and had no "records" in SYSTM X so it started me at 50w FTP lol.... I'd just been spinning at the start waiting for something to happen and the 100w I was doing before the ramp(freezing with the fan on and windows open lol) blew the results at the end ...but it was a good practice run keeping in the heart rate zone especially and I've got a KICKR V5 now so it should be more accurate.... (Couldn't you just use ERG and set it at a power level then see if you can hold that for 20mins?)
I want to raise 2 important questions!: 1)Cadence, it affects your HR at same Power. Month ago i did ramp at 70 cadence and got 290FTP, yesterday i did at 90 cadence and got 225FTP (my HR raised sooner and got into Z5 at lower wattage, and it shut legs down). So - at what cadence do you do it? And what difference you saw in results at different cadence? 2)Does indoor Ramp Test affected by a well ventilated room versus room with 3 days windows shut ? Does it lower VO2max value if 3 days windows weren't opened?
Cadence shouldn’t matter by that much and it looks like something else was off in one of your tests. Generally, you want to do the ftp test at a cadence that you are most efficient in.
You should be able to connect an ant+ key into the USB-C slot but most apps I know no longer support ant+ on mobile devices so I can’t even test to see if it works. Generally Bluetooth works best indoors so unless your sensor is only Ant+ compatible, I would recommend using Bluetooth to avoid drop outs issues with ant+
Last two times i did a ramp test, i warmed up for about 20 min and the i perform the test, its the only way my numbers match my main platform. Each one adapts differently. I prefer do a short race on zwift all out and not a 20 min test its very stressful.
I do like the warm up potion of this test. The longer the warm up the better I do. I also tend to not do well with ramp tests but can do much better in 20-30min tests. But like you said, it can be very stressful and I lost sleep at night when I had an FTP test on the schedule.
My go to is the 20 minute and 4DP test. The ramp test overestimated by FTP by 20% and for me is *highly* inaccurate. I am an "anaerobically fit" athlete as you described that did 3 years of HIIT and Squat/Oly Lifting. I was a track sprinter before cycling specializing in the 100 - 400m events and the long jump. All of these contribute to being able to push the small one minute intervals of the ramp style test far past any sort of accurate value. The 20 minute test is much more accurate in the case of a sprinter athlete because you have to aerobically pace the effort.
I rode Half Monty and Full Frontal 4DP test two days apart to compare. MAP was 100% correlated to the single watt between the ramp test and 5min test in FF. FTP in Half Monty though was low by 7% than Full Frontal, and that's the difference between Cat A and B on Zwift for me. With that, I think both tests are valid, but the Half Monty is better suited for mid-plan fine-tuning rather than a comprehensive Power profile. More details in my blog posts about the tests (suffer.tavor.io)
How do they calculate your heart rate range for the 20 minute session? Is it based off a % of your ramp test? Not a fan of Sufferfest(No Android) but this test does look promising for steady state riders like myself. Great video as always.
No matter what test I do I don't sleep properly the night before because of the anxiety ( self induced of course) associated with the test and the feeling that the result is somehow a reflection on my manhood. I keep telling myself that its ONLY a test to set your zones for training. Nothing else.( It doesn't make you win races. I see guys with 400W FTP's losing to 320W racers all the time.) But it doesn't work. That being said, someone needs to develop a test where you just pee into a cup or swab your mouth and get the results from that. 😉😉.
have you thought about using XERT? Kiss testing goodbye. I’ve tried all the training platforms including Sufferfest. I’ve settled on XERT and couldn’t be happier. It’s not designed to provide training videos etc. It’s purely a statistical training tool, but it is incredibly accurate at what it does. I use it alongside Zwift, or when training outdoors. After four months of not doing any testing, it predicted my FTP in advance (based on all the training I’d done) to within 2 watts. I continue being surprised at how accurately XERT is able to measure my fitness and predict what my actual test results will be.
Yes, totally agree. I did it once on a climb and finished a fully hour climb at my FTP at that time :) It wasn’t easy but I guess you can do it if you put your mind into it.
@@SmartBikeTrainers yes, but "do it ONCE and DIE" is not an option ;-) Everybody says: FTP means you can do it and still survive/continue the race/ride - I think after 60min with FTP I would simply ... you know ;-)
That's right. The majority of people will benefit from the 20min - 5%. 1 while hour is doable but who will face that hour again every 6-8 weeks. Coaches noticed that 20min - 5 % is getting athletes up in the game without having to massacre their inner self.
I don’t understand why training plans and power zones aren’t based around a test that is actually doable by the majority of users (ie not pros). Basing training and power zones off of FTP seems wrong to me. I think we do it because that’s what the first book on the topic did.
I did the 4DP test. I found it pretty hard. The results said I need to boost my 5 min power and it offered several workouts that were mainly 4 minute over threshold intervals . However I found that power setting of those intervals was just too low. The workouts just felt too easy. It would have been good if I could add 5-10W to the power target of those workouts, but I don’t think there’s a way to change what the program has set.
You can adjust the workout intensity once you start a workout. Just tap on the settings icon and go to settings. You should be able to raise or lower it from there.
You can adjust it individually or altogether on settings. I have the same feeling as you for the 5min efforts. Another tip is, do the 4 min vo2max workout ls on higher cadence than you usually do, that will boost your cardio system rather than your legs, bringing you in the vo2max.
Ramp tests are used in labs so I can't see why not, best was to do a 20 minute test indoors is to just pick a zwift race and go all out and have fun while you're doing it.
What’s your go to FTP test?
Xert.
I did a Breakthrough test yesterday, and got a new evaluation of my FTP (as well as my Peak Power, and my HIE) 🤭
Nice work... I got another breakthrough in Xert after these two tests going up the Alpe du Zwift.
@@SmartBikeTrainers Did you synchronize your Sufferfest tests with Xert, did it estimate your FTP, and if so, did it match with their numbers ?
I did... XERT was off about -4% of my 20min test. Which is in line with the SUF recommended 2-3% decrease because of my lack luster 5min effort.
I do ramp test with friends over zoom once a week, not really to quantify but for fun.
What a like about the ramp test is that I don’t dread taking it. So I’m far more likely to test, or retest, to get a data point every 3-4 weeks coming off a recovery week.
So 25 years ago when I applied for a racing license in Belgium we had a mandatory annual fitness test - the Conconi test. It was basically a ramp test on an ergometer bike. The doctor would perform the test and measure our power, HR and blood lactate. It seems like the Sufferfest ramp test is mostly similar in methodology and the purpose of the 20' block serves as a verification point.
I did my 4DP and the Half Monty - my FTP is a bit higher based on the Half Monty but then i guess it is because i'm not as tired as the 4DP. Both good though and i really like Sufferfest, made some big gains within a year and now my wife is also on it.
Likewise here.
I’ve just tried the ramp test because it’s much more appealing than the full test! I’m one of the people you mention where the estimated values are unrealistic… I think I’m aerobically fit but not very strong, so the numbers it guesses for my 5 second power and 1 minute are numbers I could only dream of! The 5 second power is about 20% higher than anything I’ve ever recorded
Interesting. I am 66 and just started back riding after 20 years last June. I bought a Wahoo kickr and bought a subscription To SYSTM. My first test was the 4DP and ftp was 164 watts. 12 weeks latter did another 4DP test and ftp was 184 watts. 8 weeks latter I tried the half monty and ftp was 202 watts. I can't imagine having a ftp level like yours. I hope time isn't running out for me to continue to gain. But I will try.
As far as which test is more accurate, I think the 4DP test is more through and the half monty gives a little higher power output.
This is great, Terry! Keep up with the training and your FTP will continue to rise. Welcome back to cycling!
Good video, thanks for uploading it! I'm using Wahoo X and am kinda put off the 4DP, I tried doing the Half Monty a couple of weeks after getting my Snap and it all seemed to be going too easy, the problem was I'd been using RGT all the time and had no "records" in SYSTM X so it started me at 50w FTP lol.... I'd just been spinning at the start waiting for something to happen and the 100w I was doing before the ramp(freezing with the fan on and windows open lol) blew the results at the end ...but it was a good practice run keeping in the heart rate zone especially and I've got a KICKR V5 now so it should be more accurate.... (Couldn't you just use ERG and set it at a power level then see if you can hold that for 20mins?)
Another great video. Thanks Tariq
Hey you think you could do a review of onelap
Just use the same test every time and see how much you have improved. That's all what matters. You can beat a person with much higher FTP on race day.
ramp test are perfect for indoor trainings, and u can validate it when u ride 20min with 105% of the ramp test ftp
I want to raise 2 important questions!:
1)Cadence, it affects your HR at same Power. Month ago i did ramp at 70 cadence and got 290FTP, yesterday i did at 90 cadence and got 225FTP (my HR raised sooner and got into Z5 at lower wattage, and it shut legs down). So - at what cadence do you do it? And what difference you saw in results at different cadence?
2)Does indoor Ramp Test affected by a well ventilated room versus room with 3 days windows shut ? Does it lower VO2max value if 3 days windows weren't opened?
Cadence shouldn’t matter by that much and it looks like something else was off in one of your tests. Generally, you want to do the ftp test at a cadence that you are most efficient in.
hey tariq great video. can i ask what tablet you are using and does it support ant + FEC? could you do a video on your setup?
This is an iPad Pro. It doesn’t support ant+ natively. Glad you enjoyed the video. I will look into doing a video on my setup.
@@SmartBikeTrainers does this mean you can make an IPad support ant +fec. Is there a work around?
You should be able to connect an ant+ key into the USB-C slot but most apps I know no longer support ant+ on mobile devices so I can’t even test to see if it works. Generally Bluetooth works best indoors so unless your sensor is only Ant+ compatible, I would recommend using Bluetooth to avoid drop outs issues with ant+
Last two times i did a ramp test, i warmed up for about 20 min and the i perform the test, its the only way my numbers match my main platform. Each one adapts differently. I prefer do a short race on zwift all out and not a 20 min test its very stressful.
I do like the warm up potion of this test. The longer the warm up the better I do. I also tend to not do well with ramp tests but can do much better in 20-30min tests. But like you said, it can be very stressful and I lost sleep at night when I had an FTP test on the schedule.
how do you wear those big headphones while on those efforts?
Ha... I started wearing over ears headphones years ago. They don’t bother me anymore or feel hot. Good sound quality trumps everything else :)
My go to is the 20 minute and 4DP test. The ramp test overestimated by FTP by 20% and for me is *highly* inaccurate. I am an "anaerobically fit" athlete as you described that did 3 years of HIIT and Squat/Oly Lifting. I was a track sprinter before cycling specializing in the 100 - 400m events and the long jump. All of these contribute to being able to push the small one minute intervals of the ramp style test far past any sort of accurate value. The 20 minute test is much more accurate in the case of a sprinter athlete because you have to aerobically pace the effort.
I rode Half Monty and Full Frontal 4DP test two days apart to compare. MAP was 100% correlated to the single watt between the ramp test and 5min test in FF. FTP in Half Monty though was low by 7% than Full Frontal, and that's the difference between Cat A and B on Zwift for me. With that, I think both tests are valid, but the Half Monty is better suited for mid-plan fine-tuning rather than a comprehensive Power profile.
More details in my blog posts about the tests (suffer.tavor.io)
How do they calculate your heart rate range for the 20 minute session? Is it based off a % of your ramp test? Not a fan of Sufferfest(No Android) but this test does look promising for steady state riders like myself. Great video as always.
It is based off the ramp test. Once you finish the RAMP potion, you will get your LTHR value and heart rate range to ride the 20min portion.
No matter what test I do I don't sleep properly the night before because of the anxiety ( self induced of course) associated with the test and the feeling that the result is somehow a reflection on my manhood. I keep telling myself that its ONLY a test to set your zones for training. Nothing else.( It doesn't make you win races. I see guys with 400W FTP's losing to 320W racers all the time.) But it doesn't work. That being said, someone needs to develop a test where you just pee into a cup or swab your mouth and get the results from that. 😉😉.
have you thought about using XERT? Kiss testing goodbye. I’ve tried all the training platforms including Sufferfest. I’ve settled on XERT and couldn’t be happier. It’s not designed to provide training videos etc. It’s purely a statistical training tool, but it is incredibly accurate at what it does. I use it alongside Zwift, or when training outdoors. After four months of not doing any testing, it predicted my FTP in advance (based on all the training I’d done) to within 2 watts. I continue being surprised at how accurately XERT is able to measure my fitness and predict what my actual test results will be.
One think I don't understand: I can easily go to my FTP values on 20min or ramp up but seriously I cannot imagine to pedal for 1h with my FTP ;-)
Yes, totally agree. I did it once on a climb and finished a fully hour climb at my FTP at that time :)
It wasn’t easy but I guess you can do it if you put your mind into it.
@@SmartBikeTrainers yes, but "do it ONCE and DIE" is not an option ;-) Everybody says: FTP means you can do it and still survive/continue the race/ride - I think after 60min with FTP I would simply ... you know ;-)
That's right. The majority of people will benefit from the 20min - 5%. 1 while hour is doable but who will face that hour again every 6-8 weeks. Coaches noticed that 20min - 5 % is getting athletes up in the game without having to massacre their inner self.
I don’t understand why training plans and power zones aren’t based around a test that is actually doable by the majority of users (ie not pros). Basing training and power zones off of FTP seems wrong to me. I think we do it because that’s what the first book on the topic did.
I did the 4DP test. I found it pretty hard. The results said I need to boost my 5 min power and it offered several workouts that were mainly 4 minute over threshold intervals . However I found that power setting of those intervals was just too low. The workouts just felt too easy. It would have been good if I could add 5-10W to the power target of those workouts, but I don’t think there’s a way to change what the program has set.
You can adjust the workout intensity once you start a workout. Just tap on the settings icon and go to settings. You should be able to raise or lower it from there.
You can adjust it individually or altogether on settings. I have the same feeling as you for the 5min efforts. Another tip is, do the 4 min vo2max workout ls on higher cadence than you usually do, that will boost your cardio system rather than your legs, bringing you in the vo2max.
I use the up/down arrows to change the settings during the ride. More often the down arrow.
6 weeks of training resulted in a better 4DP than yours. Lucky me. 😌
Good work 👍🏼
Ramp tests are used in labs so I can't see why not, best was to do a 20 minute test indoors is to just pick a zwift race and go all out and have fun while you're doing it.
Don't you feel depressed with how in zwift one can't win a race unless cheating?
@@Northwindbreeze not really, the real oppenent is yourself, not someone else.