How favoured am I to be born into the Catholic Faith; how foolish am I that I abandoned the Faith; how Merciful is Almighty God that He forgave this prodigal son and called me back to His embrace.
-Thanks be to the merciful God above, that he showed me the truth and beaytriful of his CATHOLIC church, and led me away from the false, man made protest church. I was not fortunate enough to have been born into the catholic church, but I am a catholic BY CHOICE
The Church doesn’t matter guys it’s who you have been restored back to. Christ Jesus. God our savior and Lord. Without Jesus the church is meaningless.
This miracle is a testimony till the day I die. I am an out of school youth for several years and everyone despised me. There is a program for out of school youth in the Philippines but i didn’t review and no hope for passing. I decided to have a novena to St. Jude Thadeus and I translated it Tagalo(local language) then prayed it for nine consecutive days. The exam came, the after 3 months result came out. Fast forward I have a degree in Philosophy now and still sipping with Aquinas. God bless!
I was raised a Pentecostal, received my primary education from the Church of Christ, became a member of a Christian church, and received Methodist Holiness higher education. I was thoroughly Protestant in every form of Christian thinking. As a teenager I began dealing with pornography addiction. One night, when I was 20, I felt an extraordinary temptation to cave in to my addiction. I prayed harder than I had ever prayed and felt the Holy Spirit on me. Even still, I felt a supernatural temptation. As I was praying in the spirit I was led to pray “Lord Jesus have mercy” over and over again. After I had prayed this a number of times, I was led to pray “Mary pray for me. Michael send angels.” As soon as these words left my mouth, the temptation ended. Christ says that demons can not be cast out in the name of demons and that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Because of this, I am confident that what happened came from God. This is the only thing that could’ve convinced me that prayer to the saints was truly a desire God has for us. Please know God wants to draw you nearer to you through the communion of the saints.
I think it's a false dichotomy to say it didn't come from demons so it could only have come from God. No. It could have come from your subconscious. Additionally, you should read the verses again. Jesus was not talking about temptation. He was talking about demonic possession. People really need to guard themselves against spiritual delusion. You open yourself up to dark things when you start thinking that every little thought that pops into your head is from God. That's how people end up with crazy eyes standing on street corners shouting at people to repent.
Pentecostalism is far afield of the reformation. There is generally a very low view of Scripture. Pentecostalism appeals to the sensational, the emotional. It uses words like “spirit”, “in the spirit”, hijacked from scripture to lend a veneer of quasi-Christian language to pure emotionalism that is so very popular in contemporary American culture. Pentecostalism doesn’t know which side of the Tiber it sits on loving neither the ultimate authority of scripture (as the reformers do) nor the authority of tradition (as Rome does). Pentecostalism represents a third way where the subjective experience of the individual presides over and judges both scripture and tradition. The average Pentecostal has only the most shallow acquaintance with scripture and virtually zero continuity with tradition. It may reach into both streams in order to appropriate some new theological novelty to hit a new emotional (labeled “spiritual”) high. All of which is evidenced in the experience you describe above.
Being non-Catholic….I was inspired to begin the novena…”Little Flower” 🙏🏾❤️🙏🏾 “Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”” Mark 9:24
Matt, I appreciate your way of discussing and not participating in argument. You easily could but give much grace to the oppositional viewpoint. I need to do this more often when I’m discussion with Protestants.
As a Protestant who is discerning Catholicism the argument for the intercession of the saints I think is pretty solid. What concerns me is when I hear Catholics pray for Saints (not God) to do things for them (e.g. “Pray to St Catherine that she will give you courage”). What power does a saint have to great supernatural gifts in and of themselves? I would think none. I want to think this is just a fringe abuse but I hear it so commonly and from well respected Catholic groups that it’s hard for me to believe that. I recently started to listen to the “Catholic Saints” podcast (which has great information and is put out by the Augustine Institute, who also runs “Formed”) and they pretty regularly say things like this at the end of a podcast. Perhaps they mean, “pray to St Catherine that she would intercede on your behalf and ask Christ to give you courage” but if that’s what they mean to say then that’s what Catholics should say. It would go a long way to helping would be Catholic Protestants like me. As it is it does appear that many Catholics perceive that the saints, Mary or otherwise, hold within them supernatural powers. This is a sticking point for me currently and would love to hear the Catholic perspective but whenever I try to look this up online, all I ever get is “ Catholics pray for the intercession of saints”.
I'm with you man. It's a slippery slope towards abuses and sacrilege. Catholics get wayyyy too many avenues for this: prayer to saints, Marian chants/rosary, and on and on. Christ was, is and will always be more than enough and more than we deserve.
I really want to hear a Catholic perspective on it. What I've got so far is that "some" believers are misguided and do worship the saints and Mary even though the Catholic Church doesn't teach so.
Saints do not have supernatural powers by themselves. Whatever supernatural gift they receive comes from God and not them. For example, in Matthew 10:1 Jesus gives authority to the apostles to heal diseases and drive out impure spirits. Also, the many miracles performed by the apostles in the book of Acts (Acts 3:1-10, Acts 5:12-16, Acts 9:32-35, Acts 14:8-10) are done through the apostles but by the power of Jesus. When Catholics pray for saints to do things for us, we are truly asking for their intercession. A common example would be the wedding at Cana. We are simply asking for the saints in Heaven, who are closer to Jesus than we are, to intercede for us in our needs. Whether we ask for a cure for a disease or a job opportunity, the miracle will occur by the power of Jesus through the intercession of the saints.
Catholic here, any and all “supernatural” graces come from God alone. Any Saint who has proven themselves in any kind of virtue; Chastity, Humility, Etc. has been called by the Lord to exercise these virtues while they were here in the flesh, and we call their strength through intersession for our behalf in matters concerning these virtues, or rather their adjacent vice; fornication, pride, etc. And you can ask why not just ask God, the thing is, we are. When we give alms to the needy, we give alms to God. (Matthew 25:35.) Likewise when a Saint intercedes for us it can only be God’s grace that flows through prayer into our life, but is performed through the family we have in Christ because God is just THAT beautiful. Typically we ask those Saints who have conquered those vices we struggle with, and though God’s grace we see exactly what manner of strength is required to conquer those vices though that Saints very existence. In short, we still ask God for help when we call upon a Saint for intersession no matter which way you cut it, so long as in your heart you know everything comes from God, but performed through our family in Christ. Never believe we or the Saints can be anything or have anything without God, because he made us.
Of course the ultimate source of all good things is God, but He in His sovereign power also chooses to work through intermediaries. Did God deliver the Israelites from Pharaoh or did Moses? God did, ultimately, but it's not incorrect to also say that Moses did. God is not a limited, created being like we are. His action is not in competition with ours. To say that I or St Catherine did something does not take away from the fact that it was ultimately God who did it.
Thanks, Matt and Cameron. I’ve personally experienced more than two miracles happened to me in my life after praying to Saints. One was St. Antony who helped me find my lost property. And next was St. Francis who miraculously cured numerous some sort of skin tags that was over my body. (In diocese of Kottar, Tamil Nadu, India). Our Ancestors and we here are Catholics because of St. Xavier and St. Thomas who visited here long back and both died here in India, as you may know.
@@CanisDei I hope you realize that Satan can do miracles as well. Do you not remember when Yeshua said that Satan is the FATHER of lies? Satan will even work lying signs and wonders to deceive people into accepting one of his most dangerous doctrines (immortality of the soul)! Satan is THE master deceiver so do not base ur beliefs on miracles
"I would want to really look at the scriptures and determine if that's what the Bible actually teaches". Cameron, thousands of denominations have sprung up because of exactly that. People wanting to interpret scripture for themselves.
So let us go to men instead and tell them to interpret scripture for us and we'll trust them with our soul... or rather let men come to us and say only we can interpret scripture to you peasants... only we have the holy spirit so trust us with your souls...🤔
@@fvrjohn14 "So let us go to men instead and tell them to interpret scripture for us and we'll trust them with our soul" -- Kind of sound like what protestants do, with themselves and their pastors. "or rather let men come to us and say only we can interpret scripture to you peasants" -- Yeah, not the attitude at all. Sound like you have a semi anti-Catholic stance. " only we have the holy spirit so trust us with your souls." -- Again, not what the Pope nor any one in a sort of power in the Church says. The vast majority of topic, Catholics can have disagreements on. Just a handful of doctrines are made cannon. It's a bit like going bowling and having the metal bars on the sides of the lane to prevent your ball from going into the gutter.
The Ecumenical Counsels were set up in the early church to define the theology of the Church. To protect us from falling into heresy. The first Church was also the Orthodox, which holds true to the teachings of the first apostles. Try going to a liturgy and experience the Grace for yourself. You will then understand by experience.
Thanks for the video. I'm in the process of converting to Catholicism. Going thru catechesis currently. I watched this video as research into one of the many new-to-me doctrines that my Protestant family/friends have argued against. Though the video wasn't much of a debate, I think both sides were equally represented. There were even more arguments against prayers to Mary and the saints than my family/friends have raised haha. Props to Matt for the charitable argument style. Much appreciated, and very educational for me. Thank you.
If there is a "rule" and the exceptions are people like Moses and Elijah, then it would mean that only the godly (godly meaning those who lived a pious life consecrated to God, like the saints) are not asleep in heaven. Thus, praying to the saints makes sense. And side note, aren't many of the saints bodies miraculously incorrupt?
@@chris-nj3vg soul sleep is not the rule. It's not even a rule. Jesus said I'm the God of the living not the dead. Even when our body dies our soul is alive in Christ.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🎙️ Matt Fradd and Cameron Bertuzzi engaged in a debate about praying to saints in heaven. 03:51 📖 Matt's modest goal was not to convince Protestants to pray to saints but to show that the practice is reasonable, biblical, and historical. 08:04 🌟 Saints in heaven are conscious, aware of events on Earth, and can intercede for us. 10:52 📖 The Bible provides examples of communion with saints in heaven, such as Jesus communing with Moses and Elijah. 16:48 🙏 Abusing devotion to saints doesn't negate its proper use, just as devotion to the Bible can have its pitfalls. 21:34 📖 The speaker approaches topics like the Eucharist and purgatory with an open mind, not predetermined by a particular view. 22:03 📜 The speaker plans to address common objections against prayers to the saints, focusing on the argument related to Deuteronomy 18:10-12. 23:40 📚 The passage in Deuteronomy 18:10-12 primarily pertains to discerning God's will through prophets, not related to asking saints for intercession. 29:34 🙏 The common Protestant objection that there's only one mediator, Jesus, doesn't preclude asking friends and family to pray for you. 34:36 🙌 Requesting the saints' intercession is not equivalent to worshiping them, as it doesn't attribute divinity to them. 36:36 📖 The absence of a direct biblical instruction doesn't necessarily mean that praying to saints is wrong; the Bible serves other purposes. 38:42 📜 Sola Scriptura doesn't require explicit biblical instructions for every practice; implicit arguments and early Church traditions support prayers to the saints. 42:24 🙏 The Catholic Church argues that the absence of biblical prohibition means praying to saints is not wrong. 44:11 🧐 Catholics believe the early Church's interpretation of Scripture holds more weight than interpretations from later periods. 56:27 🙌 Catholics believe the prayers of saints in heaven are more efficacious due to their righteousness and closeness to God. 01:00:12 🤔 Questions about how the saints hear and intercede in response to millions of prayers are speculative, and the answer might be in the mystery. 01:02:32 🌼 An experience involving Bishop Barron saying "little flower" before a technical issue resolution has piqued interest in exploring prayers to saints, like Saint Therese of Lisieux. 01:03:16 💬 A suggestion is made to create a video discussing why or why not to pray the Hail Mary prayer, diving deeper into the topic of praying to saints in the Catholic tradition. 01:03:30 🙏 Acknowledging Mary as the mother of God and praying to saints is acceptable within the Catholic tradition, and a Hail Mary prayer is suggested as a starting point for those curious about it. 01:04:11 🤝 The debate didn't have the anticipated fireworks, but it was a valuable discussion aimed at exploring the topic and addressing objections to reach a deeper understanding of the subject matter.
Catholicism is a Religion different than Scripture-based Faith. Don’t Drink The Kool Aid. Repetition = Indoctrination. Don’t Trust, the UN-trustworthy.
I love this, you two travailing through these topics is very enjoyable and edifying. It's the dialectical method done at its best. Also, Matt where did you get those glasses?!
Loving it chaps. I was raised in the Dutch Reformed church, but have systematically journeyed into the post reformation church world. I now consider myself Anglican, with a big interest in the 'Oxford movement'. I can say for the first time in my life, I feel a power of peace come over me during holy communion, which btw I've never felt before. I'm also regularly praying the rosary, BUT I have not scratched the surface of 'communion of the saints'. So this is an awesome chat.
That is awesome! Have you read John Henry Newman’s “Apologia”? I would highly recommend it to anyone enamores with the Oxford Movement in any way. May God continue to bless you and keep praying the Rosary! The devil hates it
This is a great conversation. We need more of these talks to bring us together as different members of the body of Christ, opposed to what makes us different. Cheers Matt!
I understand Why many Protestants think we worship the saints and see them as gods. My parents come from a country full of natural religiosity. Ppl will not even go to mass but will kneel outside the church with their huge saint statues. It is so bad that ppl have made up saints that the church has not canonized and actually condemns. Like, the saint of the dead. “ Santa muerte.” Thanks to Vatican 2 and the new evangelization that is going on in their country these ideas and customs are slowly dying. And, while many are leaving the church the ones that are staying are part of new charisma’s in the church that actually evangelize correctly. My mom says that she remembers the priests going to the villages and would speak in Latin only. The ppl didn’t understand at all and this is why natural religiosity is so ingrained in the Latin American culture. Thank God for giving us Vatican 2 these countries have really benefited❤️
what are the best arguments from Protestants on this? I'm a cradle protestant discerning expressions of Christianity and he brought up basically all the arguments I can find. Something about praying through saints feels weird but I don't know why exactly
Its borderline necromancy. God forbids us on talking to the dead as there can be unclean spirits that pretend to be the person you are trying to contact. @@bradyhayes7911
Just to clarify, Matt is incorrect about Orthodox communion. If you're Russian Orthodox (like me), you can partake of the eucharist at a Greek church. There's a disagreement among patriarchs with regards to the jurisdiction of Ukraine. No schism has been entered into by either side and no official excommunication has been issued.
Matthew 11:11 "Amen I say to you, among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist; yet the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he". Sounds like what you're talking about
I haven't finished the entire video yet (so I don't know if you cover Mary here) but please please please debate Mary next! I and many protestants I've tried to inform in the past would truly appreciate it!
I thought Matt's open was just so well done, so here are the examples from the Bible used by Matt in his opening statement: We as Christians are united in Christ mystically. -John 15:5: I am the vine, you are the branches. - Romans 12:4-5: For as in one body we have many members... Death does not separate us from Christ's body, therefore those who have died in Christ must still be alive. -John 11:25-26 -Mark 12:27 Saints in Heaven are aware of Saints on Earth. -2 Maccabees 15:11 -Tobit 12:12 -Matthew 17:1-9 [Christ set an example to converse with the saints in heaven, we cannot converse with saints because we are separated from heaven unlike in the transfiguration however they can hear our prayers.] Hebrews 12:1 What does Revelation say? -Revelation 6:9 [martyrs are conscious before the Second Coming and are aware of what is happening on Earth] -Revelation 5:8-10 [Elders in Heaven offering the prayers of the Saints on Earth to God] Christians in Heaven are perfected by Grace and therefore more charitable and more likely to pray for us to God than Christians on Earth.
Lots of respect and love for both Matt and Cam. They have such a wonderful brotherly love for each other in-spite of being Catholic and Protestant, which serves as a great example to be emulated by us. This discussion was great, but I would have loved someone else to debate Matt instead of Cam. Don't get me wrong I have great respect for Cam but it would have been better for someone who has done more research on this topic and someone who strongly believed in the Protestant belief on this topic, as Cam admitted in the beginning that he doesn't have much objections. Because there are Christians on both sides who are still looking for answers and such Christians look at this discussion they would consider one viewpoint weak and other strong. I feel opinions from both sides should be well presented for helping us make our minds. I know there are other debates which are available but still it would have been better had they done that. Having said that I'm very much thankful to both of you for your ministries it has been very much helpful and resourceful. Thanks and may God bless you both.
Loved the initial presentation by Mr Fradd. Especially pointing out the stadium metaphor. How perfect! Those who have already won the race and live with God in heaven are looking down 'rooting' for us, hoping for our endurance as we run our race. Those who wonder about this practice could greatly benefit by _encountering_ the saints. I was not a Catholic at the time when I read St Thérèse's Story of the Soul, but reading it I felt her overwhelming intention to rain down roses from heaven. I felt the purity of her road to the Cross, and it helped me understand my own road. One photo of her took on such life for me. Her eyes looked at me with the weight of eternity. She challenged me, understood my nothingness, and reminded of Christ and the stakes of salvation. Of course it was all the Father drawing me to his Son; nonetheless, in a simple human way, it seemed like she was channeling grace to me, that she cared specifically about me. That she came into my hands then for reasons far beyond what I could comprehend. Through her I had my first experiences with the Blessed Mother, which was new to me as I was raised Lutheran. And right at that time, a monk gifted me my first Rosary which I use to this day (~10 years ago). Among many other, even more precious happenings. Giving ourselves over to what the saints have to give opens up realities we _cannot predict._ Encountering saints draws us deeper into the Mystery of God they lived. Unfortunately, we aren't regularly encountering people who are perfected in holiness. By establishing a relationship with saints, they begin to go with us, they become part of our personal community, it's their voices that we hear. They encourage us in holiness, not abstractly but with our participation. Intercession isn't magic, it's progress in faith, hope, and love. Our love for them by definition is love for Christ, because they are saints to the extent that they are in Christ, members of his body and eternally in his presence. They are aides for opening us to the grace God wishes to flood into us. We need all the channels we can get! Every saint that lives opens another channel to Christ's love by their witness of love. Their witness strengthens us so much in our own witness - come and see! St Theresa Benedicta of the Cross, pray for us. St Isaac of Nineveh, pray for us. St Paul, pray for us. Christ be upon us always.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts ... "Encountering saints draws us deeper into the Mystery of God they lived. ... By establishing a relationship with saints, they begin to go with us, they become part of our personal community..." ; some wonderful insights! God bless! [1.12.2022]
My own view is that there is nothing wrong with asking the saints for prayer. I think that the Catholic Church is correct in making a distinction between veneration and worship. My concern is in practice, not doctrine, as to me it seems that many Catholics go past what is appropriate, especially where the Virgin Mary is concerned.
Being a protestant who started questioning the catholic teachings. One day I asked the LORD about the issue of the communion of saints ,and just immediately or so, in a vision , I met Apostle Peter,& John preaching , interestingly John gave much respect to Peter because when i went to John and asked Him some question he said I go to Peter. the other interesting thing is I was telling john, how I love his gospel writings, and he said to me don't praise me for that it wont please the other Apostle. I then asked John ,since you are perfected before the LORD Jesus ,pray for us so that we may join you in glory. Apostle John then said to me 'Resist the devil". In this same vision the LORD wanted me to know that infant baptism is Apostolic ,because as I was with John , Peter was inside the church baptizing a child ,and John asked me to join them in the church. In consequent visions i was to meet Apostle Paul who taught me many things, I again met Apostle James,in this particular vision ,I was shown how he was killed until his soul was taken up to heaven. I later again met John as though in a paradise garden as an elderly man, here he made me to understand the Apocalypse which he wrote. Quite many things have been revealed to me for the last three years and am now considering entering the catholic church.
Was hoping for a full debate with good points on each side. I am an orthodox myself, we pray to the saints. However I keep coming accross prayers to Mary or some other saint, that read like worship, not like asking them to pray for us. In fact there are sentences in there like Mary, you are the only saviour of humans or if it wasn't for you we would be lost...reading these prayers sounds so much like worship and so little like a request that it is hard to defend the stance my own church has on this. Does anyone have a resource, does anyone have a indepth viewpoint on this anywhere. Would much appreciate it! Thank you! Yeshua is the Son of The Most High! In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit!
I disagree with so much of this opening statement regarding church history and Biblical texts, but for the sake of not getting lost in the weeds, can someone answer me this: Why would I ever pray to St. Paul or St. Peter when I could pray directly to God Himself in the name of Jesus Christs---the one mediator between God and man?
Job 42:8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. As you can see, God asked Job’s friends not to pray to Him directly, but instead, to ask Job to pray for them. Why? Because Job is righteous, and as Scripture says, the prayers of the righteous are effective. That’s why we go to the Saints for their intercession, or prayers, because it is a clear Biblical precedent to go to the righteous to ask them to pray for you, and God might answer their prayer, and a lot of the time is more likely too. And those in heaven are very righteous, spotless, and without the effects of sin. Even Moses often prayed for the Israelites, or for Pharoah, and God answered Moses, and helped these people because of Moses’s prayer. And we often see people like the kings of Israel asking prophets to pray to the Lord for them, because they know the Lord will answer them. It’s a clear Biblical precedent. And plus, the prayers of multiple is better than one person praying. Still, praying to God directly is extremely important and can never be replaced, but intercession is also very important. The different Apostles ask for people to pray for them, and write for people to pray for each other, or intercede for them. And even the Jews had a belief where they went to the graves of the “Tzadikim” (righteous ones), and asked them for prayers. This is in the Mishnah. Jesus is the One Mediator, but through Jesus, the Body of Christ can pray for one another, if we weren’t allowed to be intercessors, or small mediators, then we simply wouldn’t be able to pray for or intercede for others. However, Jesus will always be the One Mediator between God and man, as the God-Man.
In the original Christian Bible Canon, before Martin Luther removed these Books, Tobit 12:12-14 says: Tobit, when you and Sarah prayed to the Lord, I was the one who brought your prayers into his glorious presence. I did the same thing each time you buried the dead. 13 On the day you got up from the table without eating your meal in order to bury that corpse, God sent me to test you. 14 But he also sent me to cure you and to rescue your daughter-in-law, Sarah, from her troubles. As you can see an angel, the Archangel Raphael, knew of the prayers of Tobit, and brought the prayers to God. Furthermore, 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 mentions that Maccabees saw a vision where the former (deceased) High Priest Onais told him that he was praying for Israel (in the war effort), and so was the prophet Jeremiah. They both knew of the things on earth and prayed for those on earth. Rev 5:8 “And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders qfell down before the Lamb, reach holding a harp, and sgolden bowls full of incense, twhich are the prayers of the saints.” The Elders, have been generally said to be Christians in heaven by Biblical scholars for multiple reasons. However, this is metaphorical. It shows the Saints in heaven bringing the prayers (in bowls) of the Saints on earth, to Jesus (the Lamb). This describes intercession, the Saints clearly know of the prayers of the faithful, and it shows them bringing these to God. This could be metaphorical for those in heaven interceding for those on earth, and they are literally bringing these prayers to Jesus, because ultimately all prayers go to God, and Jesus is also our Mediator, and it is done through Jesus. Also, God is the God of the living, and the Saints are alive, and we are the Body of Christ, and the Body heals each other, and not even death can separate this Body. The Bible even says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, which invokes thoughts of people on the clouds praying for us, that king of mental imagery, and the Bible tells us to throw off our yokes onto these witnesses. Again, the Jews, according to the Mishnah, believed in going to the graves of the righteous dead, and asking them to pray for them. The early Christians also believed in Saintly intercession: HERMAS “[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]). ORIGEN “But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]). CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA “In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]). “Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]). Furthermore, “pray” simply means “to ask”. And while Protestants might say all prayer is worship, Catholics don’t believe this. There are different types of prayer, Adoration, thanksgiving, etc. And the Catholic Church doesn’t really use the term pray to Saints, the Church uses the term “Invoke” the Saints in our prayers. And when we do this, we are asking for their prayers, or intercession. Furthermore, we don’t worship Saints we respect or revere or honor them, that’s what venerate tends to mean, but we only worship God. And the early Christians seem to agree with our view. Furthermore, we also believe in Apostolic Tradition, the teachings and etc passed down orally, as well as Written Scripture. So not everything we believe has to be explicitly stated in Scripture, not even everything in Protestantism is explicitly stated. But, primarily Scripture Alone is a Protestant doctrine, that Christians before the Enlightenment period didn’t believe in, that seems to self-contradict itself (it’s not mentioned in the Bible, and the Bible was created by the Catholic Church), and also the Bible seems to support Tradition, so you have to remember Catholics also believe Apostolic Tradition to be Biblical too, and that Scripture Alone is a new thing that Protestants claim.
How do we know who is in heaven to ask them to pray for us? How do we know for sure they are in heaven? As Jesus said 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’. Build your life on Christ as the foundation for your life - Worship, guidance and prayer. Christ, Father and the Holy spirit are one.
I think it is much more important for us to be asking our fellow believers "How can I pray for YOU" rather than asking them (or those in heaven) to pray for us.
I would say both are important, and also that if one of the two is more important than the other, it still doesn't mean that the less important one shouldn't be done.
Mary did intercede at the wedding of Cana...she keeps doing the same even in a better way cause now she is the Mother of all nations and the Queen of heaven. But more than these She has always been the Mother of our Beloved lord and they deeply love each other.
I really enjoyed this. Not only were you engaged in dialogue, but there's a real sincerity and openness that helps us all get closer to the truth and to Jesus. God bless you both! Here's to more friendly, honest dialogue!
As a very recent (non-confirmed) convert from Protestantism, I find praying to the saints a very difficult thing to do because I am not used to it and have a hard time even remembering that I can do that. Is there anyone else that used to have this issue and how did you get over it?
If you haven’t already, it might be helpful to read the lives of Saints that have caught your attention, or watch videos on them. Whatever you like. And then, you can always take up a devotion to a Saint based on your life. If you’re a writer then St. Francis de Sales, if you’re struggling with a sin then a Saint known for helping people overcome said sin. I recommend Devotion to Mary first of all, and also to St. Therese of Liseaux. And if you haven’t already, I recommend praying The Rosary. Devotion to Mary is the best devotion we can have, after Jesus of course. But also, don’t be afraid that because you pray to Mary or to another Saint that you’re offending Jesus.
@@Aryanne_v2 ex protestant here, it took me years and years to feel comfortable with the blessed mother and the saints, I started with a rosary except I would only say one hail mary and the rest of the beads would be the Jesus prayer, slowly but surely I got more comfortable with adding more hail marys. My advice is to take your time and take it slow. It takes time to wash off the protestant propaganda. May God's blessings be upon you.
Most of the Catholics must be aware that St. Antony did receive from God, a special power of restoring lost things. If you ever unfortunately lose something that meant a lot to you, please try reciting this prayer with full devotion. It will be found. Also, with regards to this same prayer, we not only can pray for the lost things, but also can pray for our lost faith. Even that will be restored. God bless!
I want to point something out. I am not being insulting, but I want you to see why I as a Protestant do NOT pray to Saints etc. for lost thing, accounting, etc etc. You pointed out the Patron saint of Lost things is Saint Anthony. OK......My argument is that the reason you think that is because a system of patron saints was invented late in the game when Christianity was officially made the religion of Rome. It adopted Roman practices. Pagan Rome ALSO has patron Gods of little things like this, and so did the Greeks! Examples: Greek God of Lost things? was Hermes, The Patron Roman GODDESS of lost things? Was Nataero. When I see this (and I am a total nerd, most people do not know these things) My red flags go bonkers! It is the EXACT Pagan system with the names changed to Saints of Christians who had passed. But if we follow the roots of Christianity to the EARLIEST church (acts and epistles) and then go back to Jewish practice where Jesus is rooted in what do we find? We find Nothing. No veneration. decoration? YES!! veneration of ANY kind? Absolutely NOT.
@@bairfreedom Your argument is wrong. I don't believe because of the invented system of Saints. I claim them to be true because I experienced it in real life. I don't thank the Saint when I experience a miracle after praying to the Saint. Instead, I thank God for having listened to the Saints' intercession. I'm a Dominican Novice. I recommend you to read Summa Theologiae by Saint Thomas Aquinas, wherein you have arguments, objections and the final conclusion of all that you may have less clarity on.
I'd argue that going directly to the Source Is the best option regardless. Christ isn't unapproachable. Also, if someone is going to use the argument that we ask our friends on Earth to pray for us, I would argue that that's more for their benefit to participate in the communion of the church than it is for ours. God knows our needs. He surely doesn't need person X to make a good enough prayer in order to accomplish His will.
I was surprised very unpleasnt by what Matt said about the orthdox Church. First of all Greeks are alowed to receive the holy communion in Russian churches (what he said is just not correct). Second of all, though there is a conflict now between "Greek" orthodox Churches and the Russian Church, it's not a schism; moreover I could't give a dozens of examples of such conflicts inside the Roman Catholic Church after the great Schism (for instance the oposition between Popes and German bishops in xi-xiv cent.). It proves that having a one head of the Church doesn't save the Church from such kind of conflicts. And the last point: after the second Vatikan Council the RCC officially rejected to apply the term "schismatics" to the orthodox Church.
The end question, how can the Saints in Heaven manage the plethora of prayer requests for their intercession is not speculative at all: the Saints in Heaven are outside of time and by the Grace of God -- in His Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotence -- can enable any number of prayers to be efficaciously interceded to Him by His Holy Ones in Heaven without regard to time. We can pray for the Salvation of a long-dead person and the merits of it, by God's Grace can be efficacious to the Salvation of a deceased of long ago. Lastly, if an intersession is contrary to the Divine Will, it's merit will be elsewhere applied and will benefit the petitioner as a Spiritual Act of Mercy. Pax Christi
Here to promote the intercession of St. Therese of Lisieux. Her prayers are very efficacious, the Lord fixed a problem in my life I was dealing with for many months within a few days of invoking her intercession! And of course the prayers of the Immaculata are the most effective saintly prayers.
Somewhere around the 11:00 mark, the whole video is frozen and silent for me the rest of the way through. Happened the day before on my mobile, and I thought I just had a poor connection. Same thing today on a fiber connection.
So my question about praying to the saints is in relation to the idea of purgatory. How do we know that the saint, for instance: a loved one we are asking to intercede for us, is in heaven? Is there are Catholic teaching on this? This is my one hangup. If I am asking my grandfather, who was a devout man but had skeletons in his closet, to pray for me...how do I know my prayers for his intercession aren't just a waste of my time?
Your grandfather would be private revelation. The Church can't speak to that. The pronouncements the Church makes is based on petitions from the faithful through miracles. To be canonized a Saint is a process. I'm new to learning about this, but my advice is look at the process of canonization.
We can also ask those in purgatory to pray for us. We should also offer up prayers for them. " may all the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest in peace. Amen."
@@housecry This is not what is meant by private revelation. The church instructs us that the souls in purgatory can pray for us. Also that we should pray for the dead and offer masses for the repose of their souls. The church recognizes that their are many saints in heaven that are unknown and who have not been formally canonized on earth.
@@alexk48 How would that not qualify as private revelation? If a loved one passes away and appears to one in a vision or a dream the only one who could attest to it is the one who received the vision or dream. It may be true; it may not be true. How is private revelation defined?
I'd love to hear what someone like William L. Craig has to say about the topics discussed in these past few podcasts (i.e. Eucharist, and Saints) and the points made by each side.
I don’t see how this can be ignored in the debate. Maybe I have listened to enough yet? When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you (Deuteronomy 18:9-12).
31:47 when it comes to 1 Timothy 2:5, you also need to read from the beginning of that chapter because it literally begins with Paul exhorting us to be intercessors for all people.
This entire debate hinges on whether or not you believe the soul is immortal. A few select protestants think that the bible teaches that the dead know nothing and are sleeping until the resurrection (ecc 9:5-10, daniel 12:2 among other passages). If this is true, praying to them would indeed be a deception, however if the human soul is inherrently immortal, the catholic position makes perfect sense. So the REAL debate, is "what happens the second after you die?
If a person, having a personal request, has a strong relationship with the CEO (Jesus) of a major corporation, why would that same person go to the CEO's mom or co-employees (Mary or dead saints) to request of them?
To prevent a conflict of interests for the CEO. consider this. If one has the advocacy of their fellow employees/saints they realize what is being asked is not only beneficial to just the one person but is beneficial as a whole for others in similar circumstances. Also if two people pray to Jesus for the same limited thing, let's say a promotion for the same job position. the one who may pray also for the saints to consider if the promotion is within God's will rather than approach Christ directly has an internal council and support of others, not saying the other party who goes directly to God can't get the promotion but having advocates can and does help us consider the gravity and priority the requests being made.
@@growinfaithkate6184 In the natural realm, a CEO may have a conflict of interest; but the CEO (Jesus) never has a conflict of interest, since He knows the beginning and the end of all things, and His sovereignty and will supersedes all else, either seen or unseen. God knows what is beneficial for each of us better than anyone else. No offence, but God doesn't say, "Okay guys, what do all of you think about this personal request?"----as if it was a democracy. The CEO (Jesus, the Word of God) rules and reigns over heaven and earth. It is a theocracy.
What if a person's mind and heart aren't aligned on the issue? Should we go against conscience and pray saints? And what about the specificity of what saint to pray to for which thing? How does the Church know Anthony helps you find your car keys but Francis helps your sick puppy? I get there is biographical reasons but is there more?
Sleep in the Bible is used in the context that the body is dead and laid down in a sleeping position, it has nothing to do with the soul, it's talking about the body of the dead person.
The unvarnished truth is that it is not wrong to pray for the Saints' intercession, and I vouch it overtly as being biblically accurate; in sundry passages we read, especially in the gospel of St Mark, that exorcisms manifest through the demons the veracity of supernatural facts under the authority of Christ, revealing his identity thereon as the son of God. Truthfully, this I have witnessed in time regarding the prayers of intercession for saints, especially Mary; for inasmuch as God allows to use these evil spirits to reveal their errors that led humankind to confusion and falsehood, that I have witnessed and here transmit that Mary is "she that will crush the head of the serpent" (Gen 3, 5) as the wicked devils were forced to confess, and that "none who loves her and serves her would see the flames of hell." Too many now will maim these facts as unevidenced biblically, but recall that the kingdom of evil cannot divide itself, and if God willed that Mary be the vessel of all graces to mankind as the bible teaches according to the first episodes of Luke's gospel, then what are we to contradict his decrees?
It is important to understand that we are asking the saints to pray for us, like I might ask another human to pray for me, but given they are of much higher standing doing so with great respect. We are NOT talking to the dead, because if you think asking a saint is talking to the dead then you are calling God a liar. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, and if Saints are in heaven then they are more alive than we are.
Personal notes: 33:05 Analysis of: 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, ... For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," -1 Timothy 2:1 - 5 33:31 Three examples of how Jesus shares many of his unique roles with Christians in lesser ways. - Jesus is the creator, John 1:3 - Jesus is the shepherd, John 21:15 - Jesus is the eternal High Priest mediating for us (Hebrews 3:1), and we are also called to participate in that priesthood; 1 Peter 2:5, Rev. 1:6
I'm a protestant that has always come down on the Catholic/Orthodox/historical/Church Fathers side of this issue. The idea of patron saints is based on three presuppositions that are uncomfortable for many Protestants: that the dead are aware of the actions of the living, that the dead can affect the world of the living either directly or indirectly, and that the dead can be assigned a job. Some Protestants are eager to proclaim that one of these is untrue and unbiblical. I view all three ideas with some degree of skepticism, but I don’t dismiss any one of them out of hand. I also kind of understand the appeal of patron saints. I enjoy reading about Christians from the past. One in particular has caught my imagination a few times. Jerome, the translator behind the Latin Vulgate, advocated translating the Old Testament from the Hebrew instead of the Greek which was typical for Latin translation at the time. I know a little something about being criticized for wanting to put together a Bible where I use a Hebrew source instead of the typical Greek source. If I felt certain that Jerome could hear me, I would enjoy going to a juice bar and getting a couple root beers to pour out my woes to someone who could really understand my problem. At least, in theory… you know… if I wasn’t the kind of guy that actually thrives on that kind of conflict. Most people in most places over most of time have had an intuitive sense that the departed hear us, even if they're raised in a tradition the explicitly says otherwise. Feelings may be the weakest kind of evidence, but they are evidence. I go over my thoughts on this in more detail on a blog post if anyone cares. shaunckennedy.wordpress.com/2020/05/16/thoughts-on-patron-saint/
I find it interesting that Protestants will say, in casual passing, things like “Grandma is watching over me from above.” Before my mom lost her faith entirely, she church-hopped Protestant churches and in one of those was where my older brother was not baptized but “dedicated” to God. It’s like we intuitively feel the need for these things and the truth of them, yet most Protestants formally reject them. (speaking from a Catholic POV of course)
@@erravi I think that one of the big problems (on both sides) is the feeling that you have to either accept it all or reject it all, instead of evaluating each claim individually. I see the same thing in Catholics in things like Papal infallibility or the sinless conception of Mary. I've known several Catholics that have said something to the effect of, "Mary understands because she's a sinner too" and then, "Just because the Pope says so doesn't automatically make it true, no matter how he says it." I prefer to address each claim independently, myself.
One Catholic defense I hear defending this against the charge that this is necromancy is that the 'Saints' in heaven are alive - but technically everyone who dies is 'alive' but in another location awaiting judgement day.
Just because Protestant worship cannot reach beyond prayer does not give Protestants any right or reason to accuse Catholic prayer to saints of being worship. That's a deficiency on the part of Protestantism, not Catholicism.
This was great! Thanks so much! @29:32 Clarifying the word "mediator" to make the distinction regarding the argument that Protestants often site regarding The Bible stating that there is only one mediator between man & God, & that is Jesus. Mediator does not mean exactly what people think in that context. See 1st Timothy 2, verse 5 through 6 (Protestants typically only site verse 5 in their argument, but verse 6 is needed for full context.) The confusion comes in the translation of the word "mediator", which here refers to Jesus being the sole Person who paid the ransom for our sins; this does NOT communicate anything about intersession or asking others to intercede for us. "DEBATE: Is it WRONG to pray to the Saints in Heaven? Matt Fradd Vs Cameron Bertuzzi" - Pints With Aquinas [1.12.2022]
How is this even called a debate? Cameron’s biggest objection is soul sleep and he’s “not totally sure “ about that. I get the feeling that this whole channel was always made to convert people to Catholicism. The whole channel seems to be about someone offering half hearted objections and a Catholic confidently knocking them down
The main question is if the Saints you choose to pray to are actually in Heaven. The narrow path is narrow for a reason and who is going to decide on Earth who made into Heaven?
@@SneakyEmu Hello! Our Lord made it absolutely clear he was establishing one Church for all time in Matt. 16.18 grounded in St. Peter- "the gates of hell shall not prevail." Then Our Lord promised the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and their successors (bishops) "that he may abide with you forever" John 14.16-17. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth and will teach the disciples "all things" Jn. 14.26 and again Jn. 16.13 the Holy Ghost will teach "all truth". The Holy Ghost descended on Pentecost. Hence it is proven from the very lips of the Son of God that he founded one Church for all time and that this Church would be guided by the Holy Ghost to preserve her from all error. St. Paul calls the Church the "pillar and ground of the truth." 1 Tim. 3.15. Thus the Church of God can never uphold error, nor bring in corruption, superstition or idolatry. I hope that was helpful. God bless!
I was intrigued by the last question on how the saints would cope, especially given the response of technology. It made me think about how one video can reach millions of people, yet it’s just one video file, I think this could give us somewhat of a good picture of how it may happen.
As a protestant this has been a question of mine. Why was Saul wrong in trying to communicate with the dead Samuel? (1 Chronicles 10:13). (1 Samuel 28:7-19) ** Samuel is a saint, right? He did intercessory prayer for his people (1 Samuel 7:7-8; 1 Samuel 9:6-10) and God heard him. But once Samuel died (1 Samuel 28:3) being called from the spirit realm was a disturbance for Samuel (1 Samuel 28:15) and a contributor for Saul's demise. How is Samuel's case different from calling on other saints who passed on? ** Yes, God is the God of the living. When a believer dies, his body is dead but his spirit is with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6) But they are not alive as Christ is alive and interceding for us ( Romans 8:34). Since he rose from the dead, he has eternal priesthood unlike other priests that died and can not continue their intercession ( Hebrew 7:23-24). So, the question is where in the bible do we find the saint's continued intercession once their spirit has passed on? ** Isaiah 8:19 says "When someone tells you to consult mediums and spirits, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" - The spirit's sainthood does not seem to have an exception because the comparison is between talking directly to God vs using spirits or mediums. if there are specified exceptions, could you please state where in the bible it is? ***when Jesus talks to Moses and Elijah at Mathew 17:3 ; Jesus is God. Him ordering where the spirit of a human be (on earth or the spirit realm) is his prerogative as God. He brought the spirit of Lazarus from the dead (the spirit realm to his body) and similarly he called on Moses and Elijah to appear. But in the case of the sear in 1 Samuel 28; I do not believe it is her demonic spirit who brought forth Samuel but God who finally decided to rebuke Saul. I could be wrong but I believe that neither demons nor humans have the authority to tell the spirit of a saint where to be but God. If it is otherwise, could you please give an example from the bible? - In both Jesus's and the sear's case; the spirits appeared at the location where they were called, implying that they were limited by space. So from where in the Bible can their presence to all who call on them be inferred? - Also in line with brothers praying for other brothers James 5:14-16 says "Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord." The Question is, if praying to the dead closer to God is a better approach, why does James say call on the elders and not mention the prayer to the saints in the spirit realm? Lastly, Was Saul wrong because he used a sear instead of praying to Samuel himself? ** The sear used a demonic spirit to call on the dead so it is clearly wrong. And we are told to pray in the Spirit in Ephesians 6:18. So if the argument is that we use the spirit of God unlike her, my question is as such, Is not the spirit already in the role of intercession in our behalf in Roman 8:26? - So why ask the interceding Spirit to get us in communication with the saints to take his role as an intercessor? Would it not be like sending a messenger to another parity to give him back the message he is sent to deliver? If you have read this far, Thank you and I would greatly appreciate the reply. Thank you for your time.
I am not a catholic, but a lifelong protestant now moving closer and closer to eastern orthodoxy. I can, however, attempt to answer some of these questions: 1-The case of Saul and the witch of Endor occurs in the context of a wider esoteric tradition of mediums, in which the sorcerer in question by way of enchantments and techniques invoked the spirit of a deceased and acted as its mouth-piece. This is seen in the whole Middle East and even in Greece, in which oracles workes in a similar manners, most of the time involving outright posession. I don't think the critique would apply to prayers to the saints as those don't share the same disposition of spirit, the same techniques, the same expectations or even the same objective (mediums seeked either knowledge or power by summoning the dead, someone no one in the ancient churches did). 2-What makes you think that Christ's eternal priesthood was somehow tied to His resurrection? If you go down this route then (and forgive me if I am not understanding you correctly) because believers share the same resurrection as Christ, then they all would become intercessors too after the general resurrection in the final judgement. I don't think this argument works. 3-In Maccabees, as the host of the channel explained, we see examples that seem to support the idea of the just dead praying and working in favor of the living in paradise. I know protestants don't usually accept the so called apocrypha, but please, keep in mind, the Septuagint (which contains the apocrypha) was the text used and cited by the Apostles as far as evidence goes, and even in the Thalmud one can find examples in which the holy men, even in death, remain interceding for the living in heaven. 4-The orthodox and catholic doctrine is that the believer is made part of the mystical body of Christ. Christ doesn't have two bodies, thus, it makes no sense for the dead to be part of something different from the living, therefore, if Christ acts throught the living church as His body then it stands to reason he acts too throught the saintly dead. More important: If those in heaven are closer to Christ, and they partake in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, why would space or hearing prayers be a problem? In the Prophets we see one (I think Elijah? Elisha?) seeing another man sin while being away. Why God couldn't give similar gifts to the saints in heaven? 5-If there is no other intercessor between God and man then to pray for one another here in this Earth could be also cause of idolatry, or at least of misguided prayer.
@@siruristtheturtle1289 Thank you for taking the time to read and reply to my long comment. I find your reply to be thought-provoking. 1. If I have not misunderstood you, Saul's action is wrong because he used a medium who uses the wrong technique instead of himself (or a priest| a Levi) praying to Samuel directly. However, I doubt that it is only the means (the medium and her technique) that is problematic here but also the end (the addressee being a dead human and not God as Isaiah 8:19 states it should be.) from Deuteronomy 18:10 -11 we get " “There shall not be found among you ..., one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.". So, I think if Saul or a better God-fearing person did the divination (calling on the dead) instead of the medium, it would still be wrong. You have a valid point in that the spirit the mediums use is not the Holy one. I have entertained that thought but still found it problematic as I have stated at the end of my previous comment. " Why ask the interceding Spirit to get us in communication with the saints to take his role as an interceder? " And where is the scripture support for a believer praying to a saint in the Holy Spirit to ask them to deliver a prayer to God? 2. Yes, as believers, we are made priests (Rev 1:6, 5:10, 20: 6). But our priestly duties are far different from that of Christ 's. He is the Only New Testament High priest who presents his sacrifice(himself) before the father once by entering into the holy of holies for all humanity (Hebrews 9). On the other hand, we present our bodies for God's service here on earth (rom 12:1) and may pray for our fellow Christians. But after we die, we would no longer intercede but be judges besides Christ (rev 20: 6). The verse (Heb 7:11-24) itself clearly states" ... since death prevented them (other priests) from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood ". So, yes, I do believe his Eternal priesthood is directly linked to him leaving forever. But also, his priesthood linage is unique as that of Melchizedek so we cannot share it with him. NO man continues his interceding priestly duties after he dies because Death prevents him. 3. I have only read bits of the apocrypha so if you have the time, could you please direct me to the parts where a person prays to a dead person| where the addressee of the prayer is not God|? I would really like to look into that 4. Being part of Christ's body does not imply that each member has the same functionality (1 cor 12). We have a biblical base for saints on earth to pray for each other but where is the biblical base for saints in heaven taking part in it? (or taking the role of God by being addressed in a prayer or be prayed to for intersession) Also, I highly doubt God revealing a secrete to his prophets qualifies as them being omnipresent. I have found no biblical base for human omnipresence or for the Holy Spirit being used as medium that gathers prayers addressed to saints. Could you please provide an example showing otherwise? 5. I do not personally think, asking a living Christian to pray for you, is the same as praying to a dead Christian by the Holy Spirit to ask them to pray for you. Nonetheless, the intercession of Christ is different from our intercession on behalf of the sick or weak in faith (point 2 above). Thank you again for your time and for helping me understand better.
@@yeabsiraasefa4959I actually thank you for your time and questions too: These matters ought to be discussed. 1-I think you are missing the wider intention, disposition and purpose of divination and necromancy: The art in question seeked either the aid of the deceased in order to adquire power, to adquire knowledge, or directly attempted to gain some measure of control over the spirit in question. It was about calling forth a soul from the other side (and by way of posession very often). Prayers to those who die in Christ can't be grouped in the same category at all: There is no attempt at summoning forth the spirit, to compell the spirit to give power to the oracle in question, to win knowledge throught the preternatural gifts of the spirit and even less to win some control or authority over the underworld as mediums and spiritists often attempted. What is seeked is the intercession via prayers, something christians ask from one another all the time. Saul seeked to call forth the spirit of Samuel: From the very foundation his enterprise was flawed and (I think) sinful in nature. He wasn't seeking aid for his prayers but to directly summon Samuel and to adquire knowledge. 2-I believe that key in our disagreement on this point comes from what role intercession plays and what prerrogatives are exclusive of Christ. It would be correct to say that Christ's role and authority can't be given to any creature, yet the kind of interecession, of saintly prayers and petitions understood by the doctrine of praying to saints is not that of a priest, but that of a petitioner before a royal court. Explaining myself a little further: The lenguage these doctrines use relates far more to the ways in which the ancient royal court worked than with the temple. It evokes the idea of petitioners before the throne seeking aid of those closer to the king in order to aid their own cause. In a similar way, thus, and because we know that the prayers of the just are more effective than those of the wicked or the sinner, the christian seeks the aid of the prayers of those who stand before God's throne, not as priests, but as part of the heavenly household. Finally, regarding Rev (20:6), wouldn't this contradict what we see in the chapter 6 verse 10, in which the deceased ask for justice to God? Rev 5:8 also presents the elders as offering the prayers of God's people before the Throne, and traditionally the most accepted interepretation of the identity of said elders is that of deceased christians. 3-Sure thing: “Then in the same way another man appeared, distinguished by his white hair and dignity, and with an air about him of extraordinary, majestic authority. Onias then said of him, ‘This is God’s prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethren and fervently prays for his people and their holy city” (2 Mc 15:13-14). While this doesn't tell us directly that prayers to the saints ought to happen, it lays part of the groundwork by making clear that deceased holy men DO intercede in favor of those on Earth. Furthermore, it would be rather bizarre that this practice (prayers to the saints) would appear not only here, but also in jewish traditions: www.sefaria.org/sheets/340861?lang=bi aish.com/prayer-at-graves-of-righteous/ Obviously we ought to be careful about taking doctrines from judaism (doctrines many of them actually question, in fact, and you can see detractors in those two links), as they rejected Christ, but it still speaks in favor of the tradition if even their own customs aprove the practice. What are the chances for this innovation to appear in two, rival, competing faiths without having a common source? 5-Finally, I think that's the point: Prayers to the saints are similar to when we ask others to pray for us, differing only in the fact that the saints are closer to God, much closer than we any of us can hope to ever be while on this Earth. They are not taking away from Christ's role any more than what we could if we pray for others.
@@siruristtheturtle1289 Thank you for the continued conversation and being patient with my questions I believe I understand your point of view better now 1. If I am not mistaken, your view is that communicating with the dead in a manner of summoning their spirit for the inquiry of knowledge or power is wrong, but to communicate with the dead to intercede on our behalf is acceptable. From the passages I have quoted, I agree that it is valid to reach the first part of that conclusion. However, I have not found a bible passage that makes a distinction whereby the communication to the dead for a purpose other than knowledge and power seeking is approved and advised. This is my recurring question; When has a dead person been the addressee of a prayer (even for the sake of intercession only) and where does the bible condone it? 2. My point on priestly duties is regarding its continuation after death. I think we might be on the same page regarding the difference between a living Christian's role to that of Christs role as an interceder. However, Heb 7:11 says that priests no longer continue in their office after they die but Christ does. So, restating my question, where in bible does it state that priests or other Christians continue their earthly duties by communicating with the living after they die? Rev 5:8 says that the elders Hold bowls of prayers of saints. My understanding is that the elders symbolically hold the prayers from Christians addressed to God not that Christians prayed to the elders and the elders now pray on their behalf. I don't follow the view that the verse implies the latter. Could you please provide me with a good source showing how the verse could be interpreted to mean the latter (Christians praying to the 24 elders)? 3. Thank you for providing the 2 Mc 15:13-14 passage but I do not think it answers the question I raised which was " where has a person prayed to a dead person? ". The passage you quoted could be seen in parallel with Rev 6:10 where the saints ask God for justice. However, in neither case are these people receiving a prayer request from a living person. The stand that dead Christians ask for justice or mercy for their people is not the one in question (which may be complicated by itself); but the stand that dead Christians communicate with the living. You are right that a Christian doctrine cannot be extracted from the Talmud but I personally do not find it bizarre that Jewish converts (or others around them) would continue incorporating their tradition (such as prayer to saints) into their newfound faith. 4. Could you also please provide an example of human omnipresence after death from the bible? 5. I personally do not agree with the assessment that dead saints have a better audience with the king than living believers. Could you please back that with a bible passage? And if their prayers have more weight before God, why didn't any of the apostles say so in their epistles? Thank you again, this conversation has been educational for me in understanding the other side.
@@yeabsiraasefa4959 1-The Law in the OT wasn't writen as a code apart from its wider cultural context: Israel existed within other large pagan policies and the Bible itself implies that it was largely paganized before Moses took them out of Egypt. I don't think one can really understand the law against communing with the dead apart from the traditions already in place and likely common among the israelites in this time period, which all more or less follow the principles I described earlier (communication by possession, summoning forth the spirit from the underworld, the use of techniques rather than simple prayer, no distinction between just or unjust in the afterlife, etc). Specific laws based on historical cases (say, the law that a woman shouldn't hurt the genitals of a man even in defense of her own husband) are good examples of what I am describing, and I think keeping in mind that context is vital to grasp the meaning and often harshness of the mosaic law. However, I will concede something: There is no explicit mention or recognition of prayers towards the dead in the Bible. It is a doctrine that can be inferred from specific passages, and is supported by tradition from virtually all ancient christian denominations on top of traditions within judaism. At the same time I would argue that as a christian we already follow doctrines that are not explicit in the Scriptures (such as the very specific Nicene Trinity, or the canon of Scripture itself) that can be nevertheless inferred from Scriptures by logical implication or derived from tradition. I think prayers to the saints, when one takes the whole picture, can be defended with the sum of all the evidence. 2-But intercession in the way we are describing does not correspond to priestly duties, and more important, we actually see in 2 Maccabees that Jeremiah kept interceeding for the living peoples of Israel even in paradise. That's the duty not only of his role as a prophet, but of any living israelite: To pray for his people. And I am aware that the deuterocanon is often taken as false, but keep in mind, the Septuagint used by the Apostles in their letters and often cited in the NT included all of these books, and they made an important part of jewish belief in the 1st century and before. Regarding Revelations: The elders are presenting the prayers of the living christians before the Throne of God, elders that, according to tradition, are indeed human beings now in paradise. Why would they present prayers God recieves directly? There is no specific mention of them claiming for justice, or them demanding from God to be avenged. Even if one accepts a mostly symbological view, why are human beings presenting prayers of other human beings before God? When taken alongisde Maccabees, I do think it helps making the case for the practice. 3-The think about 2 Maccabees is that this passage is not at all alone culturally or within tradition: As already shown by the links provided earlier, and indeed by Christ's words, it exist within the Talmud and the larger jewish tradition the idea that the dead can intercede and help the prayers of the living. We see in the Gospels how Christ criticizes the pharisees for adorning the tombs of the prophets, something that aligns perfectly with other evidence from around this time period, that is, the belief of the intercession of the just dead in jewish culture and pilgrimages to their tombs. There is also evidence for this practice as early as the 2nd and 3rd centuries of christian history, and even from the most iconoclast members of the church (as seen in the Iconoclast controversy) there is virtually no denunciation of the practice as pagan or foreign to christianity. One has to wonder why the church that so behemently condemned heresies such as Nestorianism and went into deep schisms on the basis of communion and the conduct of priests would nevertheless be passive with the introduction of practices such as these that, from an skeptic point of view, blatanly violate the OT and the Apostolic tradition. Taken as a whole, it makes a very solid case for the practice existing even before christianity entered the picture within jewish thought. And it should be said: converts to judaism were fairly rare, and the fact that it exist even after the destruction of the Temple (when the jews purgued a good chunk of what they considered "christian") should be evidence of how deeply entrenched this practice was, making it very unlikely to be of pagan origin or just an innovation. 4-Why would saints need to be omnipresent in order to hear the prayers of the living tho? Elisha was able to see another man sinning without having such a capacity, and even more should saints be able to do in paradise standing so close to God and being deified by His presence. 5-We do know from Scriptures that the prayers of the just are more effective than those of the wicked: James 5: 14-16, is in my opinion the best evidence of this. Why would the intercessory prayers of the elders and leaders be necessary if the prayer of the ill man, or any other member of the church would be enough? Compared to what the prayer of the just is more effective than others? I think often we miss that the Bible wasn't writen in our cultural context, informed by notions of secular equality and everyone having the same status and honor. The Bible was writen in the Ancient World, and we can say something about the ancient world is that it was unequal to a fault: Society was understood throught hierarchies, and said hierarchies are not at all denied by christianity but inverted: Now the great is not the violent or the powerful, but the humble, the meek, the compassionate and just. The belief in orthodoxy is that the believer moves ever closer to God, in a process of deification (uniting himself with God's energies, not his essence that can't be communicated) and thus becoming more and more like Christ. If that is true in this life, then how much greator it would be in Paradise, with the believer standing in God's presence unhindered by the passions of the flesh and the vices of this life?
The bible does say make supplication for all the saints. When we ask saints to intercede, are asking with earnestness to God on behalf of all everyone. Catholic Study Bible 18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, Ephesians 6:18 RSV-CE
If speaking to people of faith who have died is a sin or evil as many protestants say …. And Jesus is not capable of doing evil but is to be imitated. When Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah … who were long dead …. Did he sin? Were Moses and Elijah asleep and not able to answer Jesus (ie was Jesus just talking to himself in front of representations of Moses and Elijah ). Jesus said those who are faithful never die even when their body gives out. That they will live forever in his kingdom. Jesus said to pray for one another … and saints pray for others more than others … so why would they be less inclined to pray for people when they are in heaven. Revelations itself mentions the saints dressed in white in heaven. That the prayers of the saints are offerings. And so many more passages on the saints and their role in heaven, including them being part of the heavenly host when Jesus returns.
Just became a fan of this channel and podcast. I have been listening to a ton of episodes in the past week and I love all of them, but this one missed the mark for me because this was not a DEBATE, I appreciate the knowledge that both brought forward but I just wanted it to be more of an actual debate.
The Talmud talks about “going to the grave of deceased loved ones to evoke their prayers and intercession” How is this different from necromancy? “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,” Deuteronomy 18:9, 11 ESV The Bible specifically tells us that “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,” Hebrews 9:27 ESV So how can someone who is being judged themselves pray for you? When I die, I don’t want anyone praying to me to pray for them (because I myself will be judged) The Bible says “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Timothy 2:5 ESV
Every time in the Epistles when Sts. Paul, John, or James say they are praying for their congregations, and by extension us, we are seeing the power of saintly intercession.
I have a lot of respect for both sides of the debate and have met many devote orthodox and Protestants believers. So none of these thoughts are meant to be disparaging to either side, but are merely questions. When considering whether or not praying to saints is permissible, it seems the best defense would be to find evidence of such activity *as it is practiced today* in the first and second century Church. Now, because the Church was witnessing to gentiles who likely worshipped family gods, and perhaps even ancestors, it seems like the explanations for intercessory prayer and icon veneration that exist today would be in great abundance back then. Certainly if you are converting a gentile who is polytheistic you would want to make certain to explain that the practice of praying to saints or venerating icons is nothing like the things they practice, lest they fall into the sin of idolatry by accident. That said, I would then expect to find a ton of explanations, and highly explicit instructions between the churches of the first and second century carefully explaining exactly how to go about praying to saints and venerating icons without falling into sin. The kinds of detailed explanations and instructions which are available today. But we see no such thing. We do see vague references to the saints and to angels praying alongside us, but we see nothing like the clear and concise apologetics and exhortations today. I can think of a few reasons for this: 1. The explanation was oral. It was up to individual Christians, when witnessing to gentiles, to make it very clear that these practices are NOT the same as the practices the gentile already engages in. 2. The explanations where written down, but where lost to time. 3. These practice really where not as common in the first and second century as the orthodox churches claim they where.
Personally I don’t think 1 & 2 seem very likely. Ensuring that new converts clearly understand the difference between the idolatry they used to engage in, and the thoughtful exhortation to saints to pray for them, seems important enough that 1) it would not be left to chance and there would be written explanations and 2) there’d be a lot of these explanations, enough that we’d expect *something* to survive to today. Come to think of it, without even appealing to sola scriptura, one might ask why the apostles didn’t clearly explain how to ask the (dead) saints to pray for you or how to venerate icons in the canonical epistles. Similarly, why did the apostles not make careful effort to record prayers to Mary or St. Stephen so that future converts would not fall into sin accidentally by worshipping the saints rather than thoughtfully engaging in intercessory prayer like Orthodox members do today? I am certain there are other arguments besides the 3 that I listed, and I’d be happy to hear some. In fact I’d be happy to hear feedback from both sides (Protestant or Orthodox)
Oh! I should also make it clear that I’ve heard enough well thought out explanations to NOT argue that this is idolatry. My case isn’t so much that intercessory prayer is idolatry, but really a question as to whether this is really holy tradition passed down from the very beginning or development that occurred throughout the first 3/4s of the first millennium.
As early as the year 100 A.D., Christians were honoring other Christians who had died, and asking for their intercession. Many people think that honoring saints was something the Church set up later, but it was part of Christianity from the very beginning. The first saints were martyrs, people who had given up their lives for the Faith in the persecution of Christians.
“And asking for their intercession” Where? I’ve references to early church fathers saying “the saints in heaven are praying with them” but none that equate to the kind of specific and purposeful calling out by name physically dead saints. Why didn’t any of the apostles pray to Mary or Stephen in the New Testament? Why didn’t Clement or Justin Martyr? There’s even evidence in Iranaeus’ “Against Heresies” that pagans where mistakenly taking images of Jesus and setting them among their pantheon. In The Octavian you also see a pagan (Cecilius if I remember right) pick up a stone with an icon to his household god on it and kiss it. I fully understand that the intercessory prayer and icon veneration that orthodox believers practice is not the same as these to situations, but you would think if something like this was occurring, and if the early church really did practice the icon veneration and intercessory prayer practiced today, that they would be VERY careful and very clear to explain exactly how to do these things without doing them “like the pagans do” but I’ve only ever seen vague references. Disappointingly I had hoped to see similar exhortations to what I see today in the orthodox churches, where they clearly explain how to pray to saints without worshipping them, but I have seen nothing of that kind so far. Why isn’t there a manual on intercessory prayer and icon veneration like there is on baptism like the didache? I’ll admit I only just started reading the apostolic fathers, but I’m very interested in this topic as it, along with icon veneration, and the usage of “bridge” metaphors for the clergy, are some of the few things holding me back from Orthodoxy.
Sorry, I realized I went on a tangent about icon veneration. I guess I see these issues as interlinked. On intercessory prayer it’s a similar train of thought. I could easily see many situations where pagan gentiles misunderstand the practice and pray to the saints as minor gods. So similarly I would expect some written exhortations from the mainline church fathers to smaller churches or to individuals exhorting them to “pray with the saints as intercessors and not to them as mediators, for Christ is the only Mediator” or something like that
Praying to the Saints should be condemned in every Christians heart. Here's why: When praying to saints ask yourself to whom are you actually praying? We pray to God Jesus Christ because we have a relationship with him, in fact the goal of our life is to strengthen our relationship, to learn more about God's character and to glorify him. The Bible is a scripture describing God. God talks to us through scripture while we communicate through prayers. Thus there's a reasonable basis to pray to God. On the other hand, we don't know anything about the saints, we don't have a relationship with them (while we do with our brothers and sisters on earth hence why we ask them to pray for us). When someone's says that I'm praying to st Luke, how do you know? Do you know this particular Luke? Do you have a relationship with him? Do you know his heart and whether he is in the presence of God? No, you've created your own version of a certain Luke and pray to him. How can this not be necromancy?
So let’s say the President of a country is a practicing Christian. When he appear on tv, he asks for the prayers of his citizens. Now obviously he wouldn’t have a personal relationship with every citizen of the country. Is that necromancy?
I think it is fine if some people say we must directly pray while others say we can pray to saints....cause both are good and useful and helps those who are shy but want to approach the lord take the help of saints but to those who staying away from the lord think saints are enough have to approach the lord directly.
How favoured am I to be born into the Catholic Faith; how foolish am I that I abandoned the Faith; how Merciful is Almighty God that He forgave this prodigal son and called me back to His embrace.
-Thanks be to the merciful God above, that he showed me the truth and beaytriful of his CATHOLIC church, and led me away from the false, man made protest church. I was not fortunate enough to have been born into the catholic church, but I am a catholic BY CHOICE
The Church doesn’t matter guys it’s who you have been restored back to. Christ Jesus. God our savior and Lord. Without Jesus the church is meaningless.
Jesus' church matters.
Beautifully said. I came back home too. The love and mercy shown to me is overwhelming ❤🙏🏼
Me too! Praise God.
This miracle is a testimony till the day I die. I am an out of school youth for several years and everyone despised me. There is a program for out of school youth in the Philippines but i didn’t review and no hope for passing. I decided to have a novena to St. Jude Thadeus and I translated it Tagalo(local language) then prayed it for nine consecutive days. The exam came, the after 3 months result came out. Fast forward I have a degree in Philosophy now and still sipping with Aquinas. God bless!
I was raised a Pentecostal, received my primary education from the Church of Christ, became a member of a Christian church, and received Methodist Holiness higher education. I was thoroughly Protestant in every form of Christian thinking. As a teenager I began dealing with pornography addiction. One night, when I was 20, I felt an extraordinary temptation to cave in to my addiction. I prayed harder than I had ever prayed and felt the Holy Spirit on me. Even still, I felt a supernatural temptation. As I was praying in the spirit I was led to pray “Lord Jesus have mercy” over and over again. After I had prayed this a number of times, I was led to pray “Mary pray for me. Michael send angels.” As soon as these words left my mouth, the temptation ended. Christ says that demons can not be cast out in the name of demons and that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Because of this, I am confident that what happened came from God. This is the only thing that could’ve convinced me that prayer to the saints was truly a desire God has for us. Please know God wants to draw you nearer to you through the communion of the saints.
I think it's a false dichotomy to say it didn't come from demons so it could only have come from God. No. It could have come from your subconscious. Additionally, you should read the verses again. Jesus was not talking about temptation. He was talking about demonic possession.
People really need to guard themselves against spiritual delusion. You open yourself up to dark things when you start thinking that every little thought that pops into your head is from God. That's how people end up with crazy eyes standing on street corners shouting at people to repent.
Pentecostalism is far afield of the reformation. There is generally a very low view of Scripture. Pentecostalism appeals to the sensational, the emotional. It uses words like “spirit”, “in the spirit”, hijacked from scripture to lend a veneer of quasi-Christian language to pure emotionalism that is so very popular in contemporary American culture. Pentecostalism doesn’t know which side of the Tiber it sits on loving neither the ultimate authority of scripture (as the reformers do) nor the authority of tradition (as Rome does). Pentecostalism represents a third way where the subjective experience of the individual presides over and judges both scripture and tradition. The average Pentecostal has only the most shallow acquaintance with scripture and virtually zero continuity with tradition. It may reach into both streams in order to appropriate some new theological novelty to hit a new emotional (labeled “spiritual”) high. All of which is evidenced in the experience you describe above.
@@patrickbarnes9874 how does that account for the fact that his temptation was instantly defeated
It is not a debate, we have two men here who actually agree and defend their common position.
I know they seem to be agreeing and supporting each other's positions.
Being non-Catholic….I was inspired to begin the novena…”Little Flower”
🙏🏾❤️🙏🏾
“Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!””
Mark 9:24
Matt, I appreciate your way of discussing and not participating in argument. You easily could but give much grace to the oppositional viewpoint. I need to do this more often when I’m discussion with Protestants.
I agree with what your saying, it's a good conversation but not participating in argument makes calling it a debate pointless
As a Protestant who is discerning Catholicism the argument for the intercession of the saints I think is pretty solid. What concerns me is when I hear Catholics pray for Saints (not God) to do things for them (e.g. “Pray to St Catherine that she will give you courage”). What power does a saint have to great supernatural gifts in and of themselves? I would think none. I want to think this is just a fringe abuse but I hear it so commonly and from well respected Catholic groups that it’s hard for me to believe that. I recently started to listen to the “Catholic Saints” podcast (which has great information and is put out by the Augustine Institute, who also runs “Formed”) and they pretty regularly say things like this at the end of a podcast. Perhaps they mean, “pray to St Catherine that she would intercede on your behalf and ask Christ to give you courage” but if that’s what they mean to say then that’s what Catholics should say. It would go a long way to helping would be Catholic Protestants like me. As it is it does appear that many Catholics perceive that the saints, Mary or otherwise, hold within them supernatural powers. This is a sticking point for me currently and would love to hear the Catholic perspective but whenever I try to look this up online, all I ever get is “ Catholics pray for the intercession of saints”.
I'm with you man. It's a slippery slope towards abuses and sacrilege. Catholics get wayyyy too many avenues for this: prayer to saints, Marian chants/rosary, and on and on. Christ was, is and will always be more than enough and more than we deserve.
I really want to hear a Catholic perspective on it. What I've got so far is that "some" believers are misguided and do worship the saints and Mary even though the Catholic Church doesn't teach so.
Saints do not have supernatural powers by themselves. Whatever supernatural gift they receive comes from God and not them. For example, in Matthew 10:1 Jesus gives authority to the apostles to heal diseases and drive out impure spirits. Also, the many miracles performed by the apostles in the book of Acts (Acts 3:1-10, Acts 5:12-16, Acts 9:32-35, Acts 14:8-10) are done through the apostles but by the power of Jesus. When Catholics pray for saints to do things for us, we are truly asking for their intercession. A common example would be the wedding at Cana. We are simply asking for the saints in Heaven, who are closer to Jesus than we are, to intercede for us in our needs. Whether we ask for a cure for a disease or a job opportunity, the miracle will occur by the power of Jesus through the intercession of the saints.
Catholic here, any and all “supernatural” graces come from God alone. Any Saint who has proven themselves in any kind of virtue; Chastity, Humility, Etc. has been called by the Lord to exercise these virtues while they were here in the flesh, and we call their strength through intersession for our behalf in matters concerning these virtues, or rather their adjacent vice; fornication, pride, etc.
And you can ask why not just ask God, the thing is, we are. When we give alms to the needy, we give alms to God. (Matthew 25:35.)
Likewise when a Saint intercedes for us it can only be God’s grace that flows through prayer into our life, but is performed through the family we have in Christ because God is just THAT beautiful.
Typically we ask those Saints who have conquered those vices we struggle with, and though God’s grace we see exactly what manner of strength is required to conquer those vices though that Saints very existence.
In short, we still ask God for help when we call upon a Saint for intersession no matter which way you cut it, so long as in your heart you know everything comes from God, but performed through our family in Christ. Never believe we or the Saints can be anything or have anything without God, because he made us.
Of course the ultimate source of all good things is God, but He in His sovereign power also chooses to work through intermediaries. Did God deliver the Israelites from Pharaoh or did Moses? God did, ultimately, but it's not incorrect to also say that Moses did. God is not a limited, created being like we are. His action is not in competition with ours. To say that I or St Catherine did something does not take away from the fact that it was ultimately God who did it.
Thanks, Matt and Cameron. I’ve personally experienced more than two miracles happened to me in my life after praying to Saints. One was St. Antony who helped me find my lost property. And next was St. Francis who miraculously cured numerous some sort of skin tags that was over my body. (In diocese of Kottar, Tamil Nadu, India). Our Ancestors and we here are Catholics because of St. Xavier and St. Thomas who visited here long back and both died here in India, as you may know.
Where in scripture does it say or at least indicate that we should ask dead saints for help?
@@endtimesdetective3113 The premise is wrong. They are not dead.
@@endtimesdetective3113 I got cured. It matters for me.
@@atgred 🤍
@@CanisDei I hope you realize that Satan can do miracles as well. Do you not remember when Yeshua said that Satan is the FATHER of lies? Satan will even work lying signs and wonders to deceive people into accepting one of his most dangerous doctrines (immortality of the soul)! Satan is THE master deceiver so do not base ur beliefs on miracles
"I would want to really look at the scriptures and determine if that's what the Bible actually teaches". Cameron, thousands of denominations have sprung up because of exactly that. People wanting to interpret scripture for themselves.
Hundreds of thousands
Do they even know how to make the sign of the cross?, what has Christianity become....
So let us go to men instead and tell them to interpret scripture for us and we'll trust them with our soul... or rather let men come to us and say only we can interpret scripture to you peasants... only we have the holy spirit so trust us with your souls...🤔
@@fvrjohn14
"So let us go to men instead and tell them to interpret scripture for us and we'll trust them with our soul"
-- Kind of sound like what protestants do, with themselves and their pastors.
"or rather let men come to us and say only we can interpret scripture to you peasants"
-- Yeah, not the attitude at all. Sound like you have a semi anti-Catholic stance.
" only we have the holy spirit so trust us with your souls."
-- Again, not what the Pope nor any one in a sort of power in the Church says. The vast majority of topic, Catholics can have disagreements on. Just a handful of doctrines are made cannon. It's a bit like going bowling and having the metal bars on the sides of the lane to prevent your ball from going into the gutter.
The Ecumenical Counsels were set up in the early church to define the theology of the Church. To protect us from falling into heresy. The first Church was also the Orthodox, which holds true to the teachings of the first apostles. Try going to a liturgy and experience the Grace for yourself. You will then understand by experience.
Thanks for the video. I'm in the process of converting to Catholicism. Going thru catechesis currently. I watched this video as research into one of the many new-to-me doctrines that my Protestant family/friends have argued against. Though the video wasn't much of a debate, I think both sides were equally represented. There were even more arguments against prayers to Mary and the saints than my family/friends have raised haha. Props to Matt for the charitable argument style. Much appreciated, and very educational for me. Thank you.
Soul sleep would just be refuted by the fact that Moses and Elijah were there at Jesus’ transfiguration.
No, these people are exceptions to the rule.
@@chris-nj3vg Rule? What rule?
@@atgred The rule is soul sleep.
If there is a "rule" and the exceptions are people like Moses and Elijah, then it would mean that only the godly (godly meaning those who lived a pious life consecrated to God, like the saints) are not asleep in heaven. Thus, praying to the saints makes sense. And side note, aren't many of the saints bodies miraculously incorrupt?
@@chris-nj3vg soul sleep is not the rule. It's not even a rule. Jesus said I'm the God of the living not the dead. Even when our body dies our soul is alive in Christ.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🎙️ Matt Fradd and Cameron Bertuzzi engaged in a debate about praying to saints in heaven.
03:51 📖 Matt's modest goal was not to convince Protestants to pray to saints but to show that the practice is reasonable, biblical, and historical.
08:04 🌟 Saints in heaven are conscious, aware of events on Earth, and can intercede for us.
10:52 📖 The Bible provides examples of communion with saints in heaven, such as Jesus communing with Moses and Elijah.
16:48 🙏 Abusing devotion to saints doesn't negate its proper use, just as devotion to the Bible can have its pitfalls.
21:34 📖 The speaker approaches topics like the Eucharist and purgatory with an open mind, not predetermined by a particular view.
22:03 📜 The speaker plans to address common objections against prayers to the saints, focusing on the argument related to Deuteronomy 18:10-12.
23:40 📚 The passage in Deuteronomy 18:10-12 primarily pertains to discerning God's will through prophets, not related to asking saints for intercession.
29:34 🙏 The common Protestant objection that there's only one mediator, Jesus, doesn't preclude asking friends and family to pray for you.
34:36 🙌 Requesting the saints' intercession is not equivalent to worshiping them, as it doesn't attribute divinity to them.
36:36 📖 The absence of a direct biblical instruction doesn't necessarily mean that praying to saints is wrong; the Bible serves other purposes.
38:42 📜 Sola Scriptura doesn't require explicit biblical instructions for every practice; implicit arguments and early Church traditions support prayers to the saints.
42:24 🙏 The Catholic Church argues that the absence of biblical prohibition means praying to saints is not wrong.
44:11 🧐 Catholics believe the early Church's interpretation of Scripture holds more weight than interpretations from later periods.
56:27 🙌 Catholics believe the prayers of saints in heaven are more efficacious due to their righteousness and closeness to God.
01:00:12 🤔 Questions about how the saints hear and intercede in response to millions of prayers are speculative, and the answer might be in the mystery.
01:02:32 🌼 An experience involving Bishop Barron saying "little flower" before a technical issue resolution has piqued interest in exploring prayers to saints, like Saint Therese of Lisieux.
01:03:16 💬 A suggestion is made to create a video discussing why or why not to pray the Hail Mary prayer, diving deeper into the topic of praying to saints in the Catholic tradition.
01:03:30 🙏 Acknowledging Mary as the mother of God and praying to saints is acceptable within the Catholic tradition, and a Hail Mary prayer is suggested as a starting point for those curious about it.
01:04:11 🤝 The debate didn't have the anticipated fireworks, but it was a valuable discussion aimed at exploring the topic and addressing objections to reach a deeper understanding of the subject matter.
Thank you for the timestamps! God bless you
Thank you ❤
Catholicism is a Religion different than Scripture-based Faith.
Don’t Drink The Kool Aid.
Repetition = Indoctrination.
Don’t Trust, the UN-trustworthy.
I love this, you two travailing through these topics is very enjoyable and edifying. It's the dialectical method done at its best.
Also, Matt where did you get those glasses?!
Loving it chaps. I was raised in the Dutch Reformed church, but have systematically journeyed into the post reformation church world. I now consider myself Anglican, with a big interest in the 'Oxford movement'. I can say for the first time in my life, I feel a power of peace come over me during holy communion, which btw I've never felt before. I'm also regularly praying the rosary, BUT I have not scratched the surface of 'communion of the saints'. So this is an awesome chat.
That is awesome! Have you read John Henry Newman’s “Apologia”? I would highly recommend it to anyone enamores with the Oxford Movement in any way.
May God continue to bless you and keep praying the Rosary! The devil hates it
@@jmjaquinas7298 I'll put it on my to read list, thanks.
@@PaulDaLouis Ignore Pat. I’m not sure why he thought it was a good idea to uncharitably troll your thread. May God bless you on your journey!
Such good conversation!
Love your channel!
This is a great conversation. We need more of these talks to bring us together as different members of the body of Christ, opposed to what makes us different. Cheers Matt!
I understand Why many Protestants think we worship the saints and see them as gods. My parents come from a country full of natural religiosity. Ppl will not even go to mass but will kneel outside the church with their huge saint statues. It is so bad that ppl have made up saints that the church has not canonized and actually condemns. Like, the saint of the dead. “ Santa muerte.” Thanks to Vatican 2 and the new evangelization that is going on in their country these ideas and customs are slowly dying. And, while many are leaving the church the ones that are staying are part of new charisma’s in the church that actually evangelize correctly. My mom says that she remembers the priests going to the villages and would speak in Latin only. The ppl didn’t understand at all and this is why natural religiosity is so ingrained in the Latin American culture. Thank God for giving us Vatican 2 these countries have really benefited❤️
I'll be honest here, I'm disappointed that Cameron seems to have only done minimal research as to why Protestantism rejects praying to the 'Saints'.
what are the best arguments from Protestants on this? I'm a cradle protestant discerning expressions of Christianity and he brought up basically all the arguments I can find. Something about praying through saints feels weird but I don't know why exactly
I agree. This was weak from Cameron on a research level. He stayed away from some of the strongest points Protestants have to offer this conversation.
Its borderline necromancy. God forbids us on talking to the dead as there can be unclean spirits that pretend to be the person you are trying to contact. @@bradyhayes7911
Just to clarify, Matt is incorrect about Orthodox communion. If you're Russian Orthodox (like me), you can partake of the eucharist at a Greek church.
There's a disagreement among patriarchs with regards to the jurisdiction of Ukraine. No schism has been entered into by either side and no official excommunication has been issued.
Thanks you for correction.
BTW, the saints in heaven are more alive than we are.
Matthew 11:11 "Amen I say to you, among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist; yet the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he".
Sounds like what you're talking about
Yea the Saints are before God 😄
this was already stated in the debate
@Jokul What’s the biblical verse that supports your claim?
@@jon6car Where is there a mention of alive saints in the verse you quoted?
I haven't finished the entire video yet (so I don't know if you cover Mary here) but please please please debate Mary next! I and many protestants I've tried to inform in the past would truly appreciate it!
I thought Matt's open was just so well done, so here are the examples from the Bible used by Matt in his opening statement:
We as Christians are united in Christ mystically.
-John 15:5: I am the vine, you are the branches.
- Romans 12:4-5: For as in one body we have many members...
Death does not separate us from Christ's body, therefore those who have died in Christ must still be alive.
-John 11:25-26
-Mark 12:27
Saints in Heaven are aware of Saints on Earth.
-2 Maccabees 15:11
-Tobit 12:12
-Matthew 17:1-9 [Christ set an example to converse with the saints in heaven, we cannot converse with saints because we are separated from heaven unlike in the transfiguration however they can hear our prayers.]
Hebrews 12:1
What does Revelation say?
-Revelation 6:9 [martyrs are conscious before the Second Coming and are aware of what is happening on Earth]
-Revelation 5:8-10 [Elders in Heaven offering the prayers of the Saints on Earth to God]
Christians in Heaven are perfected by Grace and therefore more charitable and more likely to pray for us to God than Christians on Earth.
Thank you for creating this text of Matt's opening arguments/statements. God bless!
[1.12.2022]
@@mcsmama You are welcome! God bless.
This was great. I would love a discussion on annihilationism. I've never really heard an argument for it that was well articulated.
Lots of respect and love for both Matt and Cam. They have such a wonderful brotherly love for each other in-spite of being Catholic and Protestant, which serves as a great example to be emulated by us.
This discussion was great, but I would have loved someone else to debate Matt instead of Cam. Don't get me wrong I have great respect for Cam but it would have been better for someone who has done more research on this topic and someone who strongly believed in the Protestant belief on this topic, as Cam admitted in the beginning that he doesn't have much objections.
Because there are Christians on both sides who are still looking for answers and such Christians look at this discussion they would consider one viewpoint weak and other strong. I feel opinions from both sides should be well presented for helping us make our minds. I know there are other debates which are available but still it would have been better had they done that.
Having said that I'm very much thankful to both of you for your ministries it has been very much helpful and resourceful. Thanks and may God bless you both.
Loved the initial presentation by Mr Fradd. Especially pointing out the stadium metaphor. How perfect! Those who have already won the race and live with God in heaven are looking down 'rooting' for us, hoping for our endurance as we run our race.
Those who wonder about this practice could greatly benefit by _encountering_ the saints. I was not a Catholic at the time when I read St Thérèse's Story of the Soul, but reading it I felt her overwhelming intention to rain down roses from heaven. I felt the purity of her road to the Cross, and it helped me understand my own road. One photo of her took on such life for me. Her eyes looked at me with the weight of eternity. She challenged me, understood my nothingness, and reminded of Christ and the stakes of salvation. Of course it was all the Father drawing me to his Son; nonetheless, in a simple human way, it seemed like she was channeling grace to me, that she cared specifically about me. That she came into my hands then for reasons far beyond what I could comprehend. Through her I had my first experiences with the Blessed Mother, which was new to me as I was raised Lutheran. And right at that time, a monk gifted me my first Rosary which I use to this day (~10 years ago). Among many other, even more precious happenings.
Giving ourselves over to what the saints have to give opens up realities we _cannot predict._ Encountering saints draws us deeper into the Mystery of God they lived. Unfortunately, we aren't regularly encountering people who are perfected in holiness. By establishing a relationship with saints, they begin to go with us, they become part of our personal community, it's their voices that we hear. They encourage us in holiness, not abstractly but with our participation. Intercession isn't magic, it's progress in faith, hope, and love. Our love for them by definition is love for Christ, because they are saints to the extent that they are in Christ, members of his body and eternally in his presence. They are aides for opening us to the grace God wishes to flood into us. We need all the channels we can get! Every saint that lives opens another channel to Christ's love by their witness of love. Their witness strengthens us so much in our own witness - come and see!
St Theresa Benedicta of the Cross, pray for us.
St Isaac of Nineveh, pray for us.
St Paul, pray for us.
Christ be upon us always.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts ... "Encountering saints draws us deeper into the Mystery of God they lived. ... By establishing a relationship with saints, they begin to go with us, they become part of our personal community..." ; some wonderful insights! God bless!
[1.12.2022]
My own view is that there is nothing wrong with asking the saints for prayer. I think that the Catholic Church is correct in making a distinction between veneration and worship. My concern is in practice, not doctrine, as to me it seems that many Catholics go past what is appropriate, especially where the Virgin Mary is concerned.
Being a protestant who started questioning the catholic teachings. One day I asked the LORD about the issue of the communion of saints ,and just immediately or so, in a vision , I met Apostle Peter,& John preaching , interestingly John gave much respect to Peter because when i went to John and asked Him some question he said I go to Peter. the other interesting thing is I was telling john, how I love his gospel writings, and he said to me don't praise me for that it wont please the other Apostle. I then asked John ,since you are perfected before the LORD Jesus ,pray for us so that we may join you in glory. Apostle John then said to me 'Resist the devil". In this same vision the LORD wanted me to know that infant baptism is Apostolic ,because as I was with John , Peter was inside the church baptizing a child ,and John asked me to join them in the church. In consequent visions i was to meet Apostle Paul who taught me many things, I again met Apostle James,in this particular vision ,I was shown how he was killed until his soul was taken up to heaven. I later again met John as though in a paradise garden as an elderly man, here he made me to understand the Apocalypse which he wrote. Quite many things have been revealed to me for the last three years and am now considering entering the catholic church.
Was hoping for a full debate with good points on each side. I am an orthodox myself, we pray to the saints. However I keep coming accross prayers to Mary or some other saint, that read like worship, not like asking them to pray for us. In fact there are sentences in there like Mary, you are the only saviour of humans or if it wasn't for you we would be lost...reading these prayers sounds so much like worship and so little like a request that it is hard to defend the stance my own church has on this. Does anyone have a resource, does anyone have a indepth viewpoint on this anywhere. Would much appreciate it! Thank you! Yeshua is the Son of The Most High! In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit!
I disagree with so much of this opening statement regarding church history and Biblical texts, but for the sake of not getting lost in the weeds, can someone answer me this: Why would I ever pray to St. Paul or St. Peter when I could pray directly to God Himself in the name of Jesus Christs---the one mediator between God and man?
Job 42:8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.”
James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
As you can see, God asked Job’s friends not to pray to Him directly, but instead, to ask Job to pray for them. Why? Because Job is righteous, and as Scripture says, the prayers of the righteous are effective. That’s why we go to the Saints for their intercession, or prayers, because it is a clear Biblical precedent to go to the righteous to ask them to pray for you, and God might answer their prayer, and a lot of the time is more likely too. And those in heaven are very righteous, spotless, and without the effects of sin. Even Moses often prayed for the Israelites, or for Pharoah, and God answered Moses, and helped these people because of Moses’s prayer. And we often see people like the kings of Israel asking prophets to pray to the Lord for them, because they know the Lord will answer them. It’s a clear Biblical precedent. And plus, the prayers of multiple is better than one person praying. Still, praying to God directly is extremely important and can never be replaced, but intercession is also very important. The different Apostles ask for people to pray for them, and write for people to pray for each other, or intercede for them. And even the Jews had a belief where they went to the graves of the “Tzadikim” (righteous ones), and asked them for prayers. This is in the Mishnah. Jesus is the One Mediator, but through Jesus, the Body of Christ can pray for one another, if we weren’t allowed to be intercessors, or small mediators, then we simply wouldn’t be able to pray for or intercede for others. However, Jesus will always be the One Mediator between God and man, as the God-Man.
In the original Christian Bible Canon, before Martin Luther removed these Books, Tobit 12:12-14 says:
Tobit, when you and Sarah prayed to the Lord, I was the one who brought your prayers into his glorious presence. I did the same thing each time you buried the dead. 13 On the day you got up from the table without eating your meal in order to bury that corpse, God sent me to test you. 14 But he also sent me to cure you and to rescue your daughter-in-law, Sarah, from her troubles.
As you can see an angel, the Archangel Raphael, knew of the prayers of Tobit, and brought the prayers to God. Furthermore, 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 mentions that Maccabees saw a vision where the former (deceased) High Priest Onais told him that he was praying for Israel (in the war effort), and so was the prophet Jeremiah. They both knew of the things on earth and prayed for those on earth. Rev 5:8
“And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders qfell down before the Lamb, reach holding a harp, and sgolden bowls full of incense, twhich are the prayers of the saints.”
The Elders, have been generally said to be Christians in heaven by Biblical scholars for multiple reasons. However, this is metaphorical. It shows the Saints in heaven bringing the prayers (in bowls) of the Saints on earth, to Jesus (the Lamb). This describes intercession, the Saints clearly know of the prayers of the faithful, and it shows them bringing these to God. This could be metaphorical for those in heaven interceding for those on earth, and they are literally bringing these prayers to Jesus, because ultimately all prayers go to God, and Jesus is also our Mediator, and it is done through Jesus. Also, God is the God of the living, and the Saints are alive, and we are the Body of Christ, and the Body heals each other, and not even death can separate this Body. The Bible even says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, which invokes thoughts of people on the clouds praying for us, that king of mental imagery, and the Bible tells us to throw off our yokes onto these witnesses. Again, the Jews, according to the Mishnah, believed in going to the graves of the righteous dead, and asking them to pray for them. The early Christians also believed in Saintly intercession:
HERMAS
“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
ORIGEN
“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
“Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).
Furthermore, “pray” simply means “to ask”. And while Protestants might say all prayer is worship, Catholics don’t believe this. There are different types of prayer, Adoration, thanksgiving, etc. And the Catholic Church doesn’t really use the term pray to Saints, the Church uses the term “Invoke” the Saints in our prayers. And when we do this, we are asking for their prayers, or intercession. Furthermore, we don’t worship Saints we respect or revere or honor them, that’s what venerate tends to mean, but we only worship God. And the early Christians seem to agree with our view. Furthermore, we also believe in Apostolic Tradition, the teachings and etc passed down orally, as well as Written Scripture. So not everything we believe has to be explicitly stated in Scripture, not even everything in Protestantism is explicitly stated. But, primarily Scripture Alone is a Protestant doctrine, that Christians before the Enlightenment period didn’t believe in, that seems to self-contradict itself (it’s not mentioned in the Bible, and the Bible was created by the Catholic Church), and also the Bible seems to support Tradition, so you have to remember Catholics also believe Apostolic Tradition to be Biblical too, and that Scripture Alone is a new thing that Protestants claim.
Please pray for me because I'm really struggling with this issue.. thank you
Hello Jacinto, has the Lord guided you in any way or another regarding this issue?
...and now Cameron is Catholic...welcome home, brother
How do we know who is in heaven to ask them to pray for us? How do we know for sure they are in heaven? As Jesus said 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’.
Build your life on Christ as the foundation for your life - Worship, guidance and prayer. Christ, Father and the Holy spirit are one.
I like Matt in a jacket, it makes him look cuter and smarter!
I think it is much more important for us to be asking our fellow believers "How can I pray for YOU" rather than asking them (or those in heaven) to pray for us.
I would say both are important, and also that if one of the two is more important than the other, it still doesn't mean that the less important one shouldn't be done.
Why with the false dilemma ? Why is it either or why can it not be both ?
Cameron's going to come home within the year. If he's honest he's gonna have to.
Yup, Rome sweet home
Mary did intercede at the wedding of Cana...she keeps doing the same even in a better way cause now she is the Mother of all nations and the Queen of heaven. But more than these She has always been the Mother of our Beloved lord and they deeply love each other.
I really enjoyed this. Not only were you engaged in dialogue, but there's a real sincerity and openness that helps us all get closer to the truth and to Jesus. God bless you both! Here's to more friendly, honest dialogue!
Thank you for being honest, and making this debate about seeking truth more than about winning an argument.
As a very recent (non-confirmed) convert from Protestantism, I find praying to the saints a very difficult thing to do because I am not used to it and have a hard time even remembering that I can do that. Is there anyone else that used to have this issue and how did you get over it?
If you haven’t already, it might be helpful to read the lives of Saints that have caught your attention, or watch videos on them. Whatever you like.
And then, you can always take up a devotion to a Saint based on your life. If you’re a writer then St. Francis de Sales, if you’re struggling with a sin then a Saint known for helping people overcome said sin.
I recommend Devotion to Mary first of all, and also to St. Therese of Liseaux.
And if you haven’t already, I recommend praying The Rosary. Devotion to Mary is the best devotion we can have, after Jesus of course. But also, don’t be afraid that because you pray to Mary or to another Saint that you’re offending Jesus.
Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? It's just like that.
Try Looking for a saint who had struggles similar to your own.
@@alexk48 Yeah I usually don't ask other people to either
@@Aryanne_v2 ex protestant here, it took me years and years to feel comfortable with the blessed mother and the saints, I started with a rosary except I would only say one hail mary and the rest of the beads would be the Jesus prayer, slowly but surely I got more comfortable with adding more hail marys. My advice is to take your time and take it slow. It takes time to wash off the protestant propaganda. May God's blessings be upon you.
@@alexk48 I felt this way and praying the rosary really helped me.
Most of the Catholics must be aware that St. Antony did receive from God, a special power of restoring lost things. If you ever unfortunately lose something that meant a lot to you, please try reciting this prayer with full devotion. It will be found.
Also, with regards to this same prayer, we not only can pray for the lost things, but also can pray for our lost faith. Even that will be restored. God bless!
I want to point something out. I am not being insulting, but I want you to see why I as a Protestant do NOT pray to Saints etc. for lost thing, accounting, etc etc. You pointed out the Patron saint of Lost things is Saint Anthony. OK......My argument is that the reason you think that is because a system of patron saints was invented late in the game when Christianity was officially made the religion of Rome. It adopted Roman practices. Pagan Rome ALSO has patron Gods of little things like this, and so did the Greeks! Examples: Greek God of Lost things? was Hermes, The Patron Roman GODDESS of lost things? Was Nataero. When I see this (and I am a total nerd, most people do not know these things) My red flags go bonkers! It is the EXACT Pagan system with the names changed to Saints of Christians who had passed. But if we follow the roots of Christianity to the EARLIEST church (acts and epistles) and then go back to Jewish practice where Jesus is rooted in what do we find? We find Nothing. No veneration. decoration? YES!! veneration of ANY kind? Absolutely NOT.
@@bairfreedom Your argument is wrong. I don't believe because of the invented system of Saints. I claim them to be true because I experienced it in real life. I don't thank the Saint when I experience a miracle after praying to the Saint. Instead, I thank God for having listened to the Saints' intercession. I'm a Dominican Novice. I recommend you to read Summa Theologiae by Saint Thomas Aquinas, wherein you have arguments, objections and the final conclusion of all that you may have less clarity on.
I'd argue that going directly to the Source Is the best option regardless. Christ isn't unapproachable. Also, if someone is going to use the argument that we ask our friends on Earth to pray for us, I would argue that that's more for their benefit to participate in the communion of the church than it is for ours. God knows our needs. He surely doesn't need person X to make a good enough prayer in order to accomplish His will.
I was surprised very unpleasnt by what Matt said about the orthdox Church. First of all Greeks are alowed to receive the holy communion in Russian churches (what he said is just not correct). Second of all, though there is a conflict now between "Greek" orthodox Churches and the Russian Church, it's not a schism; moreover I could't give a dozens of examples of such conflicts inside the Roman Catholic Church after the great Schism (for instance the oposition between Popes and German bishops in xi-xiv cent.). It proves that having a one head of the Church doesn't save the Church from such kind of conflicts. And the last point: after the second Vatikan Council the RCC officially rejected to apply the term "schismatics" to the orthodox Church.
The end question, how can the Saints in Heaven manage the plethora of prayer requests for their intercession is not speculative at all: the Saints in Heaven are outside of time and by the Grace of God -- in His Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotence -- can enable any number of prayers to be efficaciously interceded to Him by His Holy Ones in Heaven without regard to time. We can pray for the Salvation of a long-dead person and the merits of it, by God's Grace can be efficacious to the Salvation of a deceased of long ago. Lastly, if an intersession is contrary to the Divine Will, it's merit will be elsewhere applied and will benefit the petitioner as a Spiritual Act of Mercy. Pax Christi
Here to promote the intercession of St. Therese of Lisieux. Her prayers are very efficacious, the Lord fixed a problem in my life I was dealing with for many months within a few days of invoking her intercession! And of course the prayers of the Immaculata are the most effective saintly prayers.
I am listening and learning. I put your videos and others on my fb page. Thank you for loving instruction.
Mathew 6:5-15. Jesus tells us how to pray. It is clear! Do not confuse "asking for prayer" with "praying to our Father"
Somewhere around the 11:00 mark, the whole video is frozen and silent for me the rest of the way through. Happened the day before on my mobile, and I thought I just had a poor connection. Same thing today on a fiber connection.
I like Matt and Cameron doing videos together they are open thinkers and honest so its interesting to hear them chat about profound topics.
So my question about praying to the saints is in relation to the idea of purgatory. How do we know that the saint, for instance: a loved one we are asking to intercede for us, is in heaven? Is there are Catholic teaching on this? This is my one hangup. If I am asking my grandfather, who was a devout man but had skeletons in his closet, to pray for me...how do I know my prayers for his intercession aren't just a waste of my time?
Your grandfather would be private revelation. The Church can't speak to that. The pronouncements the Church makes is based on petitions from the faithful through miracles. To be canonized a Saint is a process. I'm new to learning about this, but my advice is look at the process of canonization.
We can also ask those in purgatory to pray for us. We should also offer up prayers for them.
" may all the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest in peace. Amen."
@@housecry This is not what is meant by private revelation. The church instructs us that the souls in purgatory can pray for us. Also that we should pray for the dead and offer masses for the repose of their souls.
The church recognizes that their are many saints in heaven that are unknown and who have not been formally canonized on earth.
@@alexk48 How would that not qualify as private revelation? If a loved one passes away and appears to one in a vision or a dream the only one who could attest to it is the one who received the vision or dream. It may be true; it may not be true. How is private revelation defined?
I'd love to hear what someone like William L. Craig has to say about the topics discussed in these past few podcasts (i.e. Eucharist, and Saints) and the points made by each side.
He himself doesn’t like doing interdenominational controversies. That’s his prerogative, though it would be interesting to hear his thoughts.
49:52 The Trinitarian benedictions/prayers at the beginning and end of the Paul's letters are also prayers to the Holy Spirit.
A good point, but I suppose one could point out a lack of precedent for prayers to the 3rd person w/o the other 2
@@claymcdermott718 Thats a fair point you made.
Love em! Please keep debating. Excellent
This man will be Catholic within a year.
If he accepts the grace, then I agree. But sometimes people have winding journeys. The Lord is patient.
He is flirting with Catholicism for a few years now. I doubt he will convert anytime soon.
Or sooner 😉
Maybe. We pray that we’ll all grow deeper into Christ’s Body. I think he’ll probs have a long CS Lewisy brand Christianity phase
He does not understand, he is satisfied with his shallow Christianity.
Love dialogues like this, but bring back the beard Matt!
I don’t see how this can be ignored in the debate. Maybe I have listened to enough yet?
When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you (Deuteronomy 18:9-12).
Really excellent discussion! So well balanced . So much light, rather than heat
I loved this!!! As I was not even aware it was a debate! 😂
31:47 when it comes to 1 Timothy 2:5, you also need to read from the beginning of that chapter because it literally begins with Paul exhorting us to be intercessors for all people.
I loved your dialogue on both sides.
This entire debate hinges on whether or not you believe the soul is immortal. A few select protestants think that the bible teaches that the dead know nothing and are sleeping until the resurrection (ecc 9:5-10, daniel 12:2 among other passages). If this is true, praying to them would indeed be a deception, however if the human soul is inherrently immortal, the catholic position makes perfect sense. So the REAL debate, is "what happens the second after you die?
If a person, having a personal request, has a strong relationship with the CEO (Jesus) of a major corporation, why would that same person go to the CEO's mom or co-employees (Mary or dead saints) to request of them?
To prevent a conflict of interests for the CEO. consider this. If one has the advocacy of their fellow employees/saints they realize what is being asked is not only beneficial to just the one person but is beneficial as a whole for others in similar circumstances. Also if two people pray to Jesus for the same limited thing, let's say a promotion for the same job position. the one who may pray also for the saints to consider if the promotion is within God's will rather than approach Christ directly has an internal council and support of others, not saying the other party who goes directly to God can't get the promotion but having advocates can and does help us consider the gravity and priority the requests being made.
@@growinfaithkate6184
In the natural realm, a CEO may have a conflict of interest; but the CEO (Jesus) never has a conflict of interest, since He knows the beginning and the end of all things, and His sovereignty and will supersedes all else, either seen or unseen. God knows what is beneficial for each of us better than anyone else.
No offence, but God doesn't say, "Okay guys, what do all of you think about this personal request?"----as if it was a democracy. The CEO (Jesus, the Word of God) rules and reigns over heaven and earth. It is a theocracy.
What if a person's mind and heart aren't aligned on the issue? Should we go against conscience and pray saints? And what about the specificity of what saint to pray to for which thing? How does the Church know Anthony helps you find your car keys but Francis helps your sick puppy? I get there is biographical reasons but is there more?
I've watched a bit of Cameron and he will be Catholic one day, took me 56 yrs to go from Methodist to Catholic LOL
Sleep in the Bible is used in the context that the body is dead and laid down in a sleeping position, it has nothing to do with the soul, it's talking about the body of the dead person.
The unvarnished truth is that it is not wrong to pray for the Saints' intercession, and I vouch it overtly as being biblically accurate; in sundry passages we read, especially in the gospel of St Mark, that exorcisms manifest through the demons the veracity of supernatural facts under the authority of Christ, revealing his identity thereon as the son of God. Truthfully, this I have witnessed in time regarding the prayers of intercession for saints, especially Mary; for inasmuch as God allows to use these evil spirits to reveal their errors that led humankind to confusion and falsehood, that I have witnessed and here transmit that Mary is "she that will crush the head of the serpent" (Gen 3, 5) as the wicked devils were forced to confess, and that "none who loves her and serves her would see the flames of hell." Too many now will maim these facts as unevidenced biblically, but recall that the kingdom of evil cannot divide itself, and if God willed that Mary be the vessel of all graces to mankind as the bible teaches according to the first episodes of Luke's gospel, then what are we to contradict his decrees?
If you go to Israel, you can visit the grave of Rachel, where Jews once asked her intercession.
It is important to understand that we are asking the saints to pray for us, like I might ask another human to pray for me, but given they are of much higher standing doing so with great respect. We are NOT talking to the dead, because if you think asking a saint is talking to the dead then you are calling God a liar. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, and if Saints are in heaven then they are more alive than we are.
Personal notes:
33:05 Analysis of: 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"
"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, ... For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," -1 Timothy 2:1 - 5
33:31 Three examples of how Jesus shares many of his unique roles with Christians in lesser ways.
- Jesus is the creator, John 1:3
- Jesus is the shepherd, John 21:15
- Jesus is the eternal High Priest mediating for us (Hebrews 3:1), and we are also called to participate in that priesthood; 1 Peter 2:5, Rev. 1:6
Okay so don’t ever ask a friend or pastor to pray for you then
I'm a protestant that has always come down on the Catholic/Orthodox/historical/Church Fathers side of this issue.
The idea of patron saints is based on three presuppositions that are uncomfortable for many Protestants: that the dead are aware of the actions of the living, that the dead can affect the world of the living either directly or indirectly, and that the dead can be assigned a job. Some Protestants are eager to proclaim that one of these is untrue and unbiblical. I view all three ideas with some degree of skepticism, but I don’t dismiss any one of them out of hand.
I also kind of understand the appeal of patron saints. I enjoy reading about Christians from the past. One in particular has caught my imagination a few times. Jerome, the translator behind the Latin Vulgate, advocated translating the Old Testament from the Hebrew instead of the Greek which was typical for Latin translation at the time. I know a little something about being criticized for wanting to put together a Bible where I use a Hebrew source instead of the typical Greek source. If I felt certain that Jerome could hear me, I would enjoy going to a juice bar and getting a couple root beers to pour out my woes to someone who could really understand my problem. At least, in theory… you know… if I wasn’t the kind of guy that actually thrives on that kind of conflict.
Most people in most places over most of time have had an intuitive sense that the departed hear us, even if they're raised in a tradition the explicitly says otherwise. Feelings may be the weakest kind of evidence, but they are evidence.
I go over my thoughts on this in more detail on a blog post if anyone cares.
shaunckennedy.wordpress.com/2020/05/16/thoughts-on-patron-saint/
I find it interesting that Protestants will say, in casual passing, things like “Grandma is watching over me from above.” Before my mom lost her faith entirely, she church-hopped Protestant churches and in one of those was where my older brother was not baptized but “dedicated” to God. It’s like we intuitively feel the need for these things and the truth of them, yet most Protestants formally reject them. (speaking from a Catholic POV of course)
@@erravi I think that one of the big problems (on both sides) is the feeling that you have to either accept it all or reject it all, instead of evaluating each claim individually. I see the same thing in Catholics in things like Papal infallibility or the sinless conception of Mary. I've known several Catholics that have said something to the effect of, "Mary understands because she's a sinner too" and then, "Just because the Pope says so doesn't automatically make it true, no matter how he says it." I prefer to address each claim independently, myself.
One Catholic defense I hear defending this against the charge that this is necromancy is that the 'Saints' in heaven are alive - but technically everyone who dies is 'alive' but in another location awaiting judgement day.
Just because Protestant worship cannot reach beyond prayer does not give Protestants any right or reason to accuse Catholic prayer to saints of being worship. That's a deficiency on the part of Protestantism, not Catholicism.
This was great! Thanks so much!
@29:32 Clarifying the word "mediator" to make the distinction regarding the argument that Protestants often site regarding The Bible stating that there is only one mediator between man & God, & that is Jesus. Mediator does not mean exactly what people think in that context. See 1st Timothy 2, verse 5 through 6 (Protestants typically only site verse 5 in their argument, but verse 6 is needed for full context.) The confusion comes in the translation of the word "mediator", which here refers to Jesus being the sole Person who paid the ransom for our sins; this does NOT communicate anything about intersession or asking others to intercede for us.
"DEBATE: Is it WRONG to pray to the Saints in Heaven? Matt Fradd Vs Cameron Bertuzzi" - Pints With Aquinas
[1.12.2022]
Great video! Great job Matt! Im glad Cameron has come around to Catholicism.
How is this even called a debate? Cameron’s biggest objection is soul sleep and he’s “not totally sure “ about that. I get the feeling that this whole channel was always made to convert people to Catholicism. The whole channel seems to be about someone offering half hearted objections and a Catholic confidently knocking them down
Cameron was a doubting protestant and he converted to Catholicism last year.
I hope the verse in ecclesiastes can be covered where it says “the dead know not”…. I’ve wondered about that
What a great question. I've wondered the same.
I wouldn’t call this a debate at all but it was a good video with some interesting info and I did enjoy it. Thank you!
Catholic Indoctrination. That’s it.
This is the only debate I've seen where one side just kept on raising and refuting his own objections lol
The main question is if the Saints you choose to pray to are actually in Heaven. The narrow path is narrow for a reason and who is going to decide on Earth who made into Heaven?
Christ established an infallible Church which tells us definitively if someone is in Heaven
@@jmjaquinas7298 really? Can you tell where Jesus said he was doing that?
Yes. What does the church actually teach on this?
@@jmjaquinas7298 an "infallible Church" which would go on to give their own philosophies more value than God's word?
@@SneakyEmu Hello! Our Lord made it absolutely clear he was establishing one Church for all time in Matt. 16.18 grounded in St. Peter- "the gates of hell shall not prevail." Then Our Lord promised the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and their successors (bishops) "that he may abide with you forever" John 14.16-17. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth and will teach the disciples "all things" Jn. 14.26 and again Jn. 16.13 the Holy Ghost will teach "all truth". The Holy Ghost descended on Pentecost. Hence it is proven from the very lips of the Son of God that he founded one Church for all time and that this Church would be guided by the Holy Ghost to preserve her from all error. St. Paul calls the Church the "pillar and ground of the truth." 1 Tim. 3.15. Thus the Church of God can never uphold error, nor bring in corruption, superstition or idolatry.
I hope that was helpful. God bless!
I was intrigued by the last question on how the saints would cope, especially given the response of technology. It made me think about how one video can reach millions of people, yet it’s just one video file, I think this could give us somewhat of a good picture of how it may happen.
Thank you for sharing this
lots of non Catholics pray the rosary, the Hail Mary prayer.
Wow Matt crushed it - great job
I had missed you two. Loved this.
As a protestant this has been a question of mine.
Why was Saul wrong in trying to communicate with the dead Samuel? (1 Chronicles 10:13). (1 Samuel 28:7-19)
** Samuel is a saint, right? He did intercessory prayer for his people (1 Samuel 7:7-8; 1 Samuel 9:6-10) and God heard him. But once Samuel died (1 Samuel 28:3) being called from the spirit realm was a disturbance for Samuel (1 Samuel 28:15) and a contributor for Saul's demise. How is Samuel's case different from calling on other saints who passed on?
** Yes, God is the God of the living. When a believer dies, his body is dead but his spirit is with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6) But they are not alive as Christ is alive and interceding for us ( Romans 8:34). Since he rose from the dead, he has eternal priesthood unlike other priests that died and can not continue their intercession ( Hebrew 7:23-24).
So, the question is where in the bible do we find the saint's continued intercession once their spirit has passed on?
** Isaiah 8:19 says "When someone tells you to consult mediums and spirits, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?"
- The spirit's sainthood does not seem to have an exception because the comparison is between talking directly to God vs using spirits or mediums. if there are specified exceptions, could you please state where in the bible it is?
***when Jesus talks to Moses and Elijah at Mathew 17:3 ; Jesus is God. Him ordering where the spirit of a human be (on earth or the spirit realm) is his prerogative as God. He brought the spirit of Lazarus from the dead (the spirit realm to his body) and similarly he called on Moses and Elijah to appear.
But in the case of the sear in 1 Samuel 28; I do not believe it is her demonic spirit who brought forth Samuel but God who finally decided to rebuke Saul. I could be wrong but I believe that neither demons nor humans have the authority to tell the spirit of a saint where to be but God. If it is otherwise, could you please give an example from the bible?
- In both Jesus's and the sear's case; the spirits appeared at the location where they were called, implying that they were limited by space. So from where in the Bible can their presence to all who call on them be inferred?
- Also in line with brothers praying for other brothers James 5:14-16 says "Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord." The Question is, if praying to the dead closer to God is a better approach, why does James say call on the elders and not mention the prayer to the saints in the spirit realm?
Lastly, Was Saul wrong because he used a sear instead of praying to Samuel himself?
** The sear used a demonic spirit to call on the dead so it is clearly wrong. And we are told to pray in the Spirit in Ephesians 6:18. So if the argument is that we use the spirit of God unlike her, my question is as such, Is not the spirit already in the role of intercession in our behalf in Roman 8:26?
- So why ask the interceding Spirit to get us in communication with the saints to take his role as an intercessor? Would it not be like sending a messenger to another parity to give him back the message he is sent to deliver?
If you have read this far, Thank you and I would greatly appreciate the reply. Thank you for your time.
I am not a catholic, but a lifelong protestant now moving closer and closer to eastern orthodoxy. I can, however, attempt to answer some of these questions:
1-The case of Saul and the witch of Endor occurs in the context of a wider esoteric tradition of mediums, in which the sorcerer in question by way of enchantments and techniques invoked the spirit of a deceased and acted as its mouth-piece. This is seen in the whole Middle East and even in Greece, in which oracles workes in a similar manners, most of the time involving outright posession. I don't think the critique would apply to prayers to the saints as those don't share the same disposition of spirit, the same techniques, the same expectations or even the same objective (mediums seeked either knowledge or power by summoning the dead, someone no one in the ancient churches did).
2-What makes you think that Christ's eternal priesthood was somehow tied to His resurrection? If you go down this route then (and forgive me if I am not understanding you correctly) because believers share the same resurrection as Christ, then they all would become intercessors too after the general resurrection in the final judgement. I don't think this argument works.
3-In Maccabees, as the host of the channel explained, we see examples that seem to support the idea of the just dead praying and working in favor of the living in paradise. I know protestants don't usually accept the so called apocrypha, but please, keep in mind, the Septuagint (which contains the apocrypha) was the text used and cited by the Apostles as far as evidence goes, and even in the Thalmud one can find examples in which the holy men, even in death, remain interceding for the living in heaven.
4-The orthodox and catholic doctrine is that the believer is made part of the mystical body of Christ. Christ doesn't have two bodies, thus, it makes no sense for the dead to be part of something different from the living, therefore, if Christ acts throught the living church as His body then it stands to reason he acts too throught the saintly dead. More important: If those in heaven are closer to Christ, and they partake in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, why would space or hearing prayers be a problem? In the Prophets we see one (I think Elijah? Elisha?) seeing another man sin while being away. Why God couldn't give similar gifts to the saints in heaven?
5-If there is no other intercessor between God and man then to pray for one another here in this Earth could be also cause of idolatry, or at least of misguided prayer.
@@siruristtheturtle1289 Thank you for taking the time to read and reply to my long comment.
I find your reply to be thought-provoking.
1. If I have not misunderstood you, Saul's action is wrong because he used a medium who uses the wrong technique instead of himself (or a priest| a Levi) praying to Samuel directly. However, I doubt that it is only the means (the medium and her technique) that is problematic here but also the end (the addressee being a dead human and not God as Isaiah 8:19 states it should be.)
from Deuteronomy 18:10 -11 we get " “There shall not be found among you ..., one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.". So, I think if Saul or a better God-fearing person did the divination (calling on the dead) instead of the medium, it would still be wrong.
You have a valid point in that the spirit the mediums use is not the Holy one. I have entertained that thought but still found it problematic as I have stated at the end of my previous comment. " Why ask the interceding Spirit to get us in communication with the saints to take his role as an interceder? " And where is the scripture support for a believer praying to a saint in the Holy Spirit to ask them to deliver a prayer to God?
2. Yes, as believers, we are made priests (Rev 1:6, 5:10, 20: 6). But our priestly duties are far different from that of Christ 's. He is the Only New Testament High priest who presents his sacrifice(himself) before the father once by entering into the holy of holies for all humanity (Hebrews 9). On the other hand, we present our bodies for God's service here on earth (rom 12:1) and may pray for our fellow Christians. But after we die, we would no longer intercede but be judges besides Christ (rev 20: 6).
The verse (Heb 7:11-24) itself clearly states" ... since death prevented them (other priests) from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood ". So, yes, I do believe his Eternal priesthood is directly linked to him leaving forever. But also, his priesthood linage is unique as that of Melchizedek so we cannot share it with him. NO man continues his interceding priestly duties after he dies because Death prevents him.
3. I have only read bits of the apocrypha so if you have the time, could you please direct me to the parts where a person prays to a dead person| where the addressee of the prayer is not God|? I would really like to look into that
4. Being part of Christ's body does not imply that each member has the same functionality (1 cor 12). We have a biblical base for saints on earth to pray for each other but where is the biblical base for saints in heaven taking part in it? (or taking the role of God by being addressed in a prayer or be prayed to for intersession)
Also, I highly doubt God revealing a secrete to his prophets qualifies as them being omnipresent. I have found no biblical base for human omnipresence or for the Holy Spirit being used as medium that gathers prayers addressed to saints. Could you please provide an example showing otherwise?
5. I do not personally think, asking a living Christian to pray for you, is the same as praying to a dead Christian by the Holy Spirit to ask them to pray for you. Nonetheless, the intercession of Christ is different from our intercession on behalf of the sick or weak in faith (point 2 above).
Thank you again for your time and for helping me understand better.
@@yeabsiraasefa4959I actually thank you for your time and questions too: These matters ought to be discussed.
1-I think you are missing the wider intention, disposition and purpose of divination and necromancy: The art in question seeked either the aid of the deceased in order to adquire power, to adquire knowledge, or directly attempted to gain some measure of control over the spirit in question. It was about calling forth a soul from the other side (and by way of posession very often).
Prayers to those who die in Christ can't be grouped in the same category at all: There is no attempt at summoning forth the spirit, to compell the spirit to give power to the oracle in question, to win knowledge throught the preternatural gifts of the spirit and even less to win some control or authority over the underworld as mediums and spiritists often attempted. What is seeked is the intercession via prayers, something christians ask from one another all the time.
Saul seeked to call forth the spirit of Samuel: From the very foundation his enterprise was flawed and (I think) sinful in nature. He wasn't seeking aid for his prayers but to directly summon Samuel and to adquire knowledge.
2-I believe that key in our disagreement on this point comes from what role intercession plays and what prerrogatives are exclusive of Christ. It would be correct to say that Christ's role and authority can't be given to any creature, yet the kind of interecession, of saintly prayers and petitions understood by the doctrine of praying to saints is not that of a priest, but that of a petitioner before a royal court.
Explaining myself a little further: The lenguage these doctrines use relates far more to the ways in which the ancient royal court worked than with the temple. It evokes the idea of petitioners before the throne seeking aid of those closer to the king in order to aid their own cause. In a similar way, thus, and because we know that the prayers of the just are more effective than those of the wicked or the sinner, the christian seeks the aid of the prayers of those who stand before God's throne, not as priests, but as part of the heavenly household.
Finally, regarding Rev (20:6), wouldn't this contradict what we see in the chapter 6 verse 10, in which the deceased ask for justice to God? Rev 5:8 also presents the elders as offering the prayers of God's people before the Throne, and traditionally the most accepted interepretation of the identity of said elders is that of deceased christians.
3-Sure thing:
“Then in the same way another man appeared, distinguished by his white hair and dignity, and with an air about him of extraordinary, majestic authority. Onias then said of him, ‘This is God’s prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethren and fervently prays for his people and their holy city” (2 Mc 15:13-14).
While this doesn't tell us directly that prayers to the saints ought to happen, it lays part of the groundwork by making clear that deceased holy men DO intercede in favor of those on Earth. Furthermore, it would be rather bizarre that this practice (prayers to the saints) would appear not only here, but also in jewish traditions:
www.sefaria.org/sheets/340861?lang=bi
aish.com/prayer-at-graves-of-righteous/
Obviously we ought to be careful about taking doctrines from judaism (doctrines many of them actually question, in fact, and you can see detractors in those two links), as they rejected Christ, but it still speaks in favor of the tradition if even their own customs aprove the practice. What are the chances for this innovation to appear in two, rival, competing faiths without having a common source?
5-Finally, I think that's the point: Prayers to the saints are similar to when we ask others to pray for us, differing only in the fact that the saints are closer to God, much closer than we any of us can hope to ever be while on this Earth. They are not taking away from Christ's role any more than what we could if we pray for others.
@@siruristtheturtle1289 Thank you for the continued conversation and being patient with my questions
I believe I understand your point of view better now
1. If I am not mistaken, your view is that communicating with the dead in a manner of summoning their spirit for the inquiry of knowledge or power is wrong, but to communicate with the dead to intercede on our behalf is acceptable. From the passages I have quoted, I agree that it is valid to reach the first part of that conclusion. However, I have not found a bible passage that makes a distinction whereby the communication to the dead for a purpose other than knowledge and power seeking is approved and advised. This is my recurring question; When has a dead person been the addressee of a prayer (even for the sake of intercession only) and where does the bible condone it?
2. My point on priestly duties is regarding its continuation after death. I think we might be on the same page regarding the difference between a living Christian's role to that of Christs role as an interceder. However, Heb 7:11 says that priests no longer continue in their office after they die but Christ does. So, restating my question, where in bible does it state that priests or other Christians continue their earthly duties by communicating with the living after they die?
Rev 5:8 says that the elders Hold bowls of prayers of saints. My understanding is that the elders symbolically hold the prayers from Christians addressed to God not that Christians prayed to the elders and the elders now pray on their behalf. I don't follow the view that the verse implies the latter. Could you please provide me with a good source showing how the verse could be interpreted to mean the latter (Christians praying to the 24 elders)?
3. Thank you for providing the 2 Mc 15:13-14 passage but I do not think it answers the question I raised which was " where has a person prayed to a dead person? ". The passage you quoted could be seen in parallel with Rev 6:10 where the saints ask God for justice. However, in neither case are these people receiving a prayer request from a living person. The stand that dead Christians ask for justice or mercy for their people is not the one in question (which may be complicated by itself); but the stand that dead Christians communicate with the living.
You are right that a Christian doctrine cannot be extracted from the Talmud but I personally do not find it bizarre that Jewish converts (or others around them) would continue incorporating their tradition (such as prayer to saints) into their newfound faith.
4. Could you also please provide an example of human omnipresence after death from the bible?
5. I personally do not agree with the assessment that dead saints have a better audience with the king than living believers. Could you please back that with a bible passage? And if their prayers have more weight before God, why didn't any of the apostles say so in their epistles?
Thank you again, this conversation has been educational for me in understanding the other side.
@@yeabsiraasefa4959 1-The Law in the OT wasn't writen as a code apart from its wider cultural context: Israel existed within other large pagan policies and the Bible itself implies that it was largely paganized before Moses took them out of Egypt. I don't think one can really understand the law against communing with the dead apart from the traditions already in place and likely common among the israelites in this time period, which all more or less follow the principles I described earlier (communication by possession, summoning forth the spirit from the underworld, the use of techniques rather than simple prayer, no distinction between just or unjust in the afterlife, etc). Specific laws based on historical cases (say, the law that a woman shouldn't hurt the genitals of a man even in defense of her own husband) are good examples of what I am describing, and I think keeping in mind that context is vital to grasp the meaning and often harshness of the mosaic law.
However, I will concede something: There is no explicit mention or recognition of prayers towards the dead in the Bible. It is a doctrine that can be inferred from specific passages, and is supported by tradition from virtually all ancient christian denominations on top of traditions within judaism. At the same time I would argue that as a christian we already follow doctrines that are not explicit in the Scriptures (such as the very specific Nicene Trinity, or the canon of Scripture itself) that can be nevertheless inferred from Scriptures by logical implication or derived from tradition. I think prayers to the saints, when one takes the whole picture, can be defended with the sum of all the evidence.
2-But intercession in the way we are describing does not correspond to priestly duties, and more important, we actually see in 2 Maccabees that Jeremiah kept interceeding for the living peoples of Israel even in paradise. That's the duty not only of his role as a prophet, but of any living israelite: To pray for his people. And I am aware that the deuterocanon is often taken as false, but keep in mind, the Septuagint used by the Apostles in their letters and often cited in the NT included all of these books, and they made an important part of jewish belief in the 1st century and before.
Regarding Revelations: The elders are presenting the prayers of the living christians before the Throne of God, elders that, according to tradition, are indeed human beings now in paradise. Why would they present prayers God recieves directly? There is no specific mention of them claiming for justice, or them demanding from God to be avenged. Even if one accepts a mostly symbological view, why are human beings presenting prayers of other human beings before God? When taken alongisde Maccabees, I do think it helps making the case for the practice.
3-The think about 2 Maccabees is that this passage is not at all alone culturally or within tradition: As already shown by the links provided earlier, and indeed by Christ's words, it exist within the Talmud and the larger jewish tradition the idea that the dead can intercede and help the prayers of the living. We see in the Gospels how Christ criticizes the pharisees for adorning the tombs of the prophets, something that aligns perfectly with other evidence from around this time period, that is, the belief of the intercession of the just dead in jewish culture and pilgrimages to their tombs.
There is also evidence for this practice as early as the 2nd and 3rd centuries of christian history, and even from the most iconoclast members of the church (as seen in the Iconoclast controversy) there is virtually no denunciation of the practice as pagan or foreign to christianity. One has to wonder why the church that so behemently condemned heresies such as Nestorianism and went into deep schisms on the basis of communion and the conduct of priests would nevertheless be passive with the introduction of practices such as these that, from an skeptic point of view, blatanly violate the OT and the Apostolic tradition.
Taken as a whole, it makes a very solid case for the practice existing even before christianity entered the picture within jewish thought. And it should be said: converts to judaism were fairly rare, and the fact that it exist even after the destruction of the Temple (when the jews purgued a good chunk of what they considered "christian") should be evidence of how deeply entrenched this practice was, making it very unlikely to be of pagan origin or just an innovation.
4-Why would saints need to be omnipresent in order to hear the prayers of the living tho? Elisha was able to see another man sinning without having such a capacity, and even more should saints be able to do in paradise standing so close to God and being deified by His presence.
5-We do know from Scriptures that the prayers of the just are more effective than those of the wicked:
James 5: 14-16, is in my opinion the best evidence of this. Why would the intercessory prayers of the elders and leaders be necessary if the prayer of the ill man, or any other member of the church would be enough? Compared to what the prayer of the just is more effective than others?
I think often we miss that the Bible wasn't writen in our cultural context, informed by notions of secular equality and everyone having the same status and honor. The Bible was writen in the Ancient World, and we can say something about the ancient world is that it was unequal to a fault: Society was understood throught hierarchies, and said hierarchies are not at all denied by christianity but inverted: Now the great is not the violent or the powerful, but the humble, the meek, the compassionate and just.
The belief in orthodoxy is that the believer moves ever closer to God, in a process of deification (uniting himself with God's energies, not his essence that can't be communicated) and thus becoming more and more like Christ. If that is true in this life, then how much greator it would be in Paradise, with the believer standing in God's presence unhindered by the passions of the flesh and the vices of this life?
Catholic here. Love Matt and love these two together 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
The bible does say make supplication for all the saints. When we ask saints to intercede, are asking with earnestness to God on behalf of all everyone. Catholic Study Bible
18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
Ephesians 6:18 RSV-CE
If speaking to people of faith who have died is a sin or evil as many protestants say …. And Jesus is not capable of doing evil but is to be imitated.
When Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah … who were long dead …. Did he sin? Were Moses and Elijah asleep and not able to answer Jesus (ie was Jesus just talking to himself in front of representations of Moses and Elijah ).
Jesus said those who are faithful never die even when their body gives out. That they will live forever in his kingdom. Jesus said to pray for one another … and saints pray for others more than others … so why would they be less inclined to pray for people when they are in heaven.
Revelations itself mentions the saints dressed in white in heaven. That the prayers of the saints are offerings. And so many more passages on the saints and their role in heaven, including them being part of the heavenly host when Jesus returns.
I pray that Cameron will research, learn and pray one Hail Mary… 🙏❤️🔥🙏
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Just became a fan of this channel and podcast. I have been listening to a ton of episodes in the past week and I love all of them, but this one missed the mark for me because this was not a DEBATE, I appreciate the knowledge that both brought forward but I just wanted it to be more of an actual debate.
Matt please do a debate between Cameron and Steve Ray, that would be awesome!
The Talmud talks about “going to the grave of deceased loved ones to evoke their prayers and intercession” How is this different from necromancy? “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,”
Deuteronomy 18:9, 11 ESV
The Bible specifically tells us that “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,”
Hebrews 9:27 ESV
So how can someone who is being judged themselves pray for you? When I die, I don’t want anyone praying to me to pray for them (because I myself will be judged) The Bible says “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”
1 Timothy 2:5 ESV
Every time in the Epistles when Sts. Paul, John, or James say they are praying for their congregations, and by extension us, we are seeing the power of saintly intercession.
9:45 i used this as an argument. My grandmother used the excuse that the jews repeatesly turned away from God. How do i explain this?
I have a lot of respect for both sides of the debate and have met many devote orthodox and Protestants believers. So none of these thoughts are meant to be disparaging to either side, but are merely questions.
When considering whether or not praying to saints is permissible, it seems the best defense would be to find evidence of such activity *as it is practiced today* in the first and second century Church.
Now, because the Church was witnessing to gentiles who likely worshipped family gods, and perhaps even ancestors, it seems like the explanations for intercessory prayer and icon veneration that exist today would be in great abundance back then. Certainly if you are converting a gentile who is polytheistic you would want to make certain to explain that the practice of praying to saints or venerating icons is nothing like the things they practice, lest they fall into the sin of idolatry by accident.
That said, I would then expect to find a ton of explanations, and highly explicit instructions between the churches of the first and second century carefully explaining exactly how to go about praying to saints and venerating icons without falling into sin. The kinds of detailed explanations and instructions which are available today. But we see no such thing. We do see vague references to the saints and to angels praying alongside us, but we see nothing like the clear and concise apologetics and exhortations today.
I can think of a few reasons for this:
1. The explanation was oral. It was up to individual Christians, when witnessing to gentiles, to make it very clear that these practices are NOT the same as the practices the gentile already engages in.
2. The explanations where written down, but where lost to time.
3. These practice really where not as common in the first and second century as the orthodox churches claim they where.
Personally I don’t think 1 & 2 seem very likely. Ensuring that new converts clearly understand the difference between the idolatry they used to engage in, and the thoughtful exhortation to saints to pray for them, seems important enough that 1) it would not be left to chance and there would be written explanations and 2) there’d be a lot of these explanations, enough that we’d expect *something* to survive to today.
Come to think of it, without even appealing to sola scriptura, one might ask why the apostles didn’t clearly explain how to ask the (dead) saints to pray for you or how to venerate icons in the canonical epistles. Similarly, why did the apostles not make careful effort to record prayers to Mary or St. Stephen so that future converts would not fall into sin accidentally by worshipping the saints rather than thoughtfully engaging in intercessory prayer like Orthodox members do today?
I am certain there are other arguments besides the 3 that I listed, and I’d be happy to hear some. In fact I’d be happy to hear feedback from both sides (Protestant or Orthodox)
Oh! I should also make it clear that I’ve heard enough well thought out explanations to NOT argue that this is idolatry. My case isn’t so much that intercessory prayer is idolatry, but really a question as to whether this is really holy tradition passed down from the very beginning or development that occurred throughout the first 3/4s of the first millennium.
As early as the year 100 A.D., Christians were honoring other Christians who had died, and asking for their intercession. Many people think that honoring saints was something the Church set up later, but it was part of Christianity from the very beginning.
The first saints were martyrs, people who had given up their lives for the Faith in the persecution of Christians.
“And asking for their intercession” Where? I’ve references to early church fathers saying “the saints in heaven are praying with them” but none that equate to the kind of specific and purposeful calling out by name physically dead saints.
Why didn’t any of the apostles pray to Mary or Stephen in the New Testament? Why didn’t Clement or Justin Martyr?
There’s even evidence in Iranaeus’ “Against Heresies” that pagans where mistakenly taking images of Jesus and setting them among their pantheon.
In The Octavian you also see a pagan (Cecilius if I remember right) pick up a stone with an icon to his household god on it and kiss it.
I fully understand that the intercessory prayer and icon veneration that orthodox believers practice is not the same as these to situations, but you would think if something like this was occurring, and if the early church really did practice the icon veneration and intercessory prayer practiced today, that they would be VERY careful and very clear to explain exactly how to do these things without doing them “like the pagans do” but I’ve only ever seen vague references. Disappointingly I had hoped to see similar exhortations to what I see today in the orthodox churches, where they clearly explain how to pray to saints without worshipping them, but I have seen nothing of that kind so far.
Why isn’t there a manual on intercessory prayer and icon veneration like there is on baptism like the didache?
I’ll admit I only just started reading the apostolic fathers, but I’m very interested in this topic as it, along with icon veneration, and the usage of “bridge” metaphors for the clergy, are some of the few things holding me back from Orthodoxy.
Sorry, I realized I went on a tangent about icon veneration. I guess I see these issues as interlinked.
On intercessory prayer it’s a similar train of thought. I could easily see many situations where pagan gentiles misunderstand the practice and pray to the saints as minor gods. So similarly I would expect some written exhortations from the mainline church fathers to smaller churches or to individuals exhorting them to “pray with the saints as intercessors and not to them as mediators, for Christ is the only Mediator” or something like that
Praying to the Saints should be condemned in every Christians heart. Here's why:
When praying to saints ask yourself to whom are you actually praying?
We pray to God Jesus Christ because we have a relationship with him, in fact the goal of our life is to strengthen our relationship, to learn more about God's character and to glorify him. The Bible is a scripture describing God. God talks to us through scripture while we communicate through prayers. Thus there's a reasonable basis to pray to God.
On the other hand, we don't know anything about the saints, we don't have a relationship with them (while we do with our brothers and sisters on earth hence why we ask them to pray for us). When someone's says that I'm praying to st Luke, how do you know? Do you know this particular Luke? Do you have a relationship with him? Do you know his heart and whether he is in the presence of God?
No, you've created your own version of a certain Luke and pray to him. How can this not be necromancy?
So let’s say the President of a country is a practicing Christian. When he appear on tv, he asks for the prayers of his citizens. Now obviously he wouldn’t have a personal relationship with every citizen of the country. Is that necromancy?
You have the oppinion of Cameron vs 2000 years of church history.
Good luck Cameron were rooting for you.
As Catholics. Do you have to pray to Mary or the saints ? Like can you sit that out if your spirit doesn’t sit well with that practice ?
Yes but the holier the person praying for you the more likely it’s heard. The saints in heaven and the mother of God are holy
I think it is fine if some people say we must directly pray while others say we can pray to saints....cause both are good and useful and helps those who are shy but want to approach the lord take the help of saints but to those who staying away from the lord think saints are enough have to approach the lord directly.
“I don’t know what the Hail Mary is”……yeah if you looked it up and read it, you would know it’s an intercession prayer.