Good point, yzerman left being a part of Detroit while Babcock was there but came back now after he’s gone....sure it was a better position in Tampa but if he knew he was gonna take over in Detroit don’t u think he woulda waited....I dunno
@@derekfuller1543 What? Babcock in Detroit had nothing to do with Yzerman staying or leaving. Holland didn't want to give up the reins at the time, period.
steven moretto calm down bud just having a lil fun with conspiracy theories here, have you been to Detroit? I’d leave that city for a gig at Dunkin Donuts
Not true at all. Very much a bullshit statement!!!!! Steve did like him. They would Hag out a lot. You guys and your fucking lies. Don’t listen to everything you hear on here. Your talking about the crying tornado maple Leafs. We’re all the players are being over paid. The GM paid these guys lots of money and let the kids walk on him.
Being a Wings fan I specifically remember hearing through a good source that Lindstrom would only stick around if Babs left and he didn’t so Linds retired. This doesn’t surprise me.
@Full Circle there is no way you're a wings fan, you don't even know his name. It's Lidstrom. And he was 42 when he retired. That is well beyond the age a typical NHL star retires at. Lidstrom is way to mentally tough to let an old school hard nosed coach get to him. Marner is a bitch.
Good point, apparently Mike Tomlin hated all the b.s Antonio Brown pulled when he played for the steelers. Do you think he's going to say anything while he's on the team? No way.
@@chadjohnson608 Of course no player will bring this out when he's the coach. to suggest that a player would do it is total ridiculous. Babs is the coach of the Canadian team. You think anyone wants to be on his bad side.
really hate when someone starts with no one is perfect, blah blah, thats b.s. a lot of people go their entire lives and not treat people like garbage.....
@@tbc9652 I have never done so as an adult. I have never treated a coworker poorly, and I would never emotionally manipulate someone. Once you are an adult, you are responsible for your actions.
With all of Babcock's success it's easy to overlook the fact that he inherited a dynasty in Detroit and got to coach a stacked team Canada. That's like being given a ferrari and having to race against Ford Pinto's. I saw all I needed to see when he scratched Spezza on opening night against his old team...DBag move.
Yeah but the consensus is still that he’s a “good coach” but a piece of shit and a terrible person. He’s a dickhead but gets the most out of his players “until, they say fuck this you’re a dick and tune him out”
I am amazed when people say " why are people saying things now?" If you know how power works you would know how stupid this statement is. Reprisal happens all the time. People are afraid of the consequences to their career and livelihood. Sorry Jamie, your comments are naive.
@@matth268 So what other coach had stories of abusive behavior toward players. I don't remember it happening. I don't remember hearing anything about Pat Quinn or Pat Burns or Ron Wilson or even Carlyle.
FLGiggles2 Babcock will not get another job unless he seriously smooths this over. The players carry too much power for this to go away. This is just the beginning of this.
Does he really deserve to be in the Hall? He rode a fantastic performance by Giggy to the cup final with Anaheim, then won 1 cup with the insanely stacked Red Wings, before never winning a playoff round in Toronto. Don’t even mention the gold medals, any coach in the NHL or even AHL could take that roster and win gold
@@stevenst6337 You do know Babcock was not the coach of the 2002 Wings right? The 2008 team while still pretty good with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom and Franzen ect...was far from one of the best all time. Hell they added Hossa after winning that cup and lost in the finals to the Pens in 2009. Scotty Bowman was the coach of the 2002 hall of fame team.
Yes he deserves to be in the HOF. Im not even a Leafs fan or a fan of any team hes coached, but hes one of the more successful coaches of all time and his hockey knowledge is beyond respected. Easy to say "anyone can win with that roster" till you notice how many times Canada didnt win with stacked rosters. And yes it was a disappoitment that TOR never won a playoff round, but part of that is due to the stupid new format. Who did Toronto really lose to? They lost to top 3 teams each of the past 3 years in very tough series'. People act like they were getting blown out by the Canes or Sens in the playoffs. They played the Bruins tougher than any other East team did, tahts damn sure
It comes down to a human value scheme it seems ,being part of head games, but at the end of the day what do you really value? Something isn't right ,I have talked to hundreds of people over the years and body language and eye movement can also say much.There is a toxic feel by so many that have spoke up.
Babcock making Marner do this is bad, obviously. However, I'd be way more concerned if the entire organization knew about this (which they probably did) and didn't do anything about it
Alex Hutcheson There's no way Shanny didn't know about this. Lou or Dubas, maybe. I doubt it, but whatever. But there's no way in Hell that Shanahan didn't know this was going on.
He was the same guy when you hired him for record breaking amounts Toronto. The more right you are for firing him the more wrong you are for hiring him.
I remember when he left Detroit Johan Franzen would rag on him constantly on Instagram. Johan being under contract still I am sure was told to ease up.
@@thevegangiant5589 100% true guy was one of the laziest players around his coaches and GM's said as much. Don't think its a coincidence O'Dog is the only player Jim Rutherford had gone to arb. with. " I did my research I called a few guys I know hate him!" people hate Scotty Bowman A LOT too is he some horrendous human being?
Commodore has been saying it forever and I think a lot of people probably just assumed it was sour grapes or something on his part but now it is all coming out.
I'd like to see Modano sign with Minnesota or Dallas for a single game. Take the opening faceoff and skate off the ice...he deserves that 1500th career game.
Met him at a bar downtown calgary when he was with detroit. Tries to introduce myself and tell him im a big fan of his work and he told me to fuck off and leave him alone.
The media needs to take a good long hard look at themselves, because they definitely enabled this erratic coaching behavior. Babcock was more or less deified in the Toronto media the past 3-4 years because of his contract and perceived pedigree. Why would any reasonable person risk their career/livelihood attacking a deified figure, especially one with a winning pedigree? They would get LAMBASTED by journalists, which would then trickle down to fans. Even most people when hearing Mike Commodore a while back before the Leafs started sucking were saying, “he’s just a disgruntled guy with an axe to grind”. We tend to overlook coaching tactics when their team is winning hockey games.
I keep seeing this retarded argument "Anyone could've won with those teams." You could use that argument to discredit literally every single coach that has ever won anything. Your goalie is like 20th in sv%, your defense is atrocious and you have no one who can play the pk. Sure blame the top 10 coach of all time, would make sense coming from Leafs fans lmfao
@@greasyslickwaterbuffalo3287 lmao, he has been gone for 2 games and there has already been massive improvement. I dont know how anyone could not think he was the problem.
soaringbullet lol. Their current style works great against average teams in the regular season. As soon as they come up against a heavy, high compete level, physical team in the playoffs, I think they get beat. I think it took Babcock 3 years to figure that out.
At 4:53 O-dog makes a comment about Babcock sitting Justin Holl for 70 plus games and didn't think he was a player.... Justin Holl looked like a quite serviceable player this year for the Leafs.
I wonder just how much Babcock ‘contributed’ to the success of the teams he has been with. When Babcock won, his teams were loaded up with talented players. Look at the Wings etc. What does an NHL coach ‘bring’ to a team environment? It seems that Babcock needed to ensure that he had a psychological EDGE over his players in order to motivate them. Even more of a tribute to those players who won in SPITE of Babcocks bullying tactics. If there are great players who can’t cope with this type of mental ABUSE, ultimately they will likely underperform. Was Babcock the ONLY coach who could have won in 2010? I think that’s unlikely in the extreme.
Finally, the real Babcock story is coming out. His use of spare players was absurd, how he regularly blew up his back up goalies was ridiculous, it goes on and on.
I've been listening to these guys over the last year, and can't even put a number of times they called out Babcock on some bad decision, bad line change, putting out the fourth line or wrong player in the wrong situation. Game seven against the bruins, was all on babock because his top two lines where on the bench from 5 minute stretches getting cold waiting fro the third and fourth line to get off. O'dog was right, why didn't MLSE (shanahan) not get rid of him in the summer and get the new coach implementing a system.
The guy on the right..stop saying why it did not come out earlier..just because players were scared to talk about his abuse all these years , does not mean it was ok and we should not blame Bab now.
I agree with Noodles, the people that knew this was going on should have had the balls to say something or call MB out on it. No one speaks up anymore, everyone is scared but as soon as the guy is gone, everyone becomes a tough guy. I can now understand why the young guys held out/demanded so much money to play for Babcock, he was hard to deal with and be around.
06:05....The coach O-Dog is talking about has to be Paul Maurice. He coached Jeff on three separate occasions, if I remember correctly. It could be Peter Laviolette, but Maurice coached O-Dog for at least 75% of his career.
This has been going on forever.. I had a junior coach who dressed me, as a 20 year old and a point a game player, to sit on the bench the whole game.. Just to get his "superstar" motivated
@@joer8854 thats just one i have 2 more.. I was also made to rot as a 19 year old twice by 2 different coaches.. I honestly thought it was me.. 1. I had 10pts in 7 games.. Invite to SPHL. Coach said if I go I don't have a spot if i am cut.. Ok i stay then im not playing..2. Not getting much ice but playing 3rd line. Someone yells at our coach he assumes its my father and im on the bench not seeing any ice.. Literally sat on the bench 60mins a game.
@@Hyperi0nn let me guess.. You are one of the guys that tormented and hazed Rookies. That's fine.. The 3 coaches I mentioned ALL in junior A.. ALL currently being contacted by hockey canada... But hey keep it up 👍
I knew the Leafs were tanking on purpose during that six game losing streak. The fact that they started winning IMMEDIATELY after Babcocks firing just proves it. Now we know why.
Marner never said anything because as bad as things might have been, he wanted to be a leaf and if he were to come out and speak at the time then he probably feared the inner workings of what might have happened on any given day where he wakes up and finds himself traded. Leaf fans stick by Marner... he won't disappoint you in the end.
I've heard Dubas wanted to fire Babs in the offseason but Shanny decided to give him one last go. It seems odd they fired him on a road trip. However, I bet that the players only meeting the team had was them agreeing to send a message to Shanny saying , either through a message delivered by Johnny T or their play, that they needed Babs gone. They basically gave up at puck drop in Vegas and Pitty after that. Shanny has no choice now, tells Dubas he can fire him, and the second he's able to Kyle tells Babs to hit the bricks. That's gotta be the way this played out.
MAF made a miracle save late in the 3rd and stopped it from going to OT. I often wonder, if MAF doesn't make that save and the Leafs win in OT does Babs still get fired. And if that was the start of a win streak?
Here we are 3 years later and the Leafs still haven’t won a round. What comes to mind for me is this; Brendan Shanahan surely knew/knows Babcock, intimately as a hockey guy because he played for Babcock. What was the thought process bringing in Babcock and this ‘style’ of coach knowing full well that this team would be young and inexperienced at the NHL level. I’m left thinking that there are some details about how decisions of this type are made. What critical things are we not privy to regarding the ‘relationship’ between players and management. Certainly Shanahan was a hard nosed and terrific player. Perhaps there is a negative situation or atmosphere in and around the Leafs. Certainly they were allowed some leeway around the dress code and we’re always shown how much fun the players have in their downtime at Scotiabank arena. Just to sum up, Brendan Shanahan has been at the helm for something like 8 years with NO POSITIVE RESULTS IN THE PLAYOFFS. This MUST BE THE YEAR FOR SOMETHING MORE IN THE PLAYOFFS or changes MUST BE MADE. The Leafs, on paper, should have been able to progress farther in previous seasons, however have come up short EVERY YEAR…
No. Look at his record and tell me which other coaches have accomplished as much as Mike Babcock? That's a short list. Yes, I know Detroit had good teams and players, but all Stanley Cup winning coaches have good players. You can't win with stiffs.
James Anthony doesn’t mean that organizations won’t avoid him. No team wants a cancer in the locker room that immediately makes your contracts get more expensive because he’s a POS.
@@ianwamsley2595 Teams may avoid him for a number of reasons: his age; his contract demands; lack of recent playoff success; etc. Would THEY view him as a cancer? I don't know. If I were to hire him, I'd want to ask him about exactly what happened in Toronto, his take, and not what has been reported, spread by the media and fans, etc.
Hockey guys don’t run their mouths in general. Commie is one of the few that spoke. It’s kind of ‘Me Too’-esque in a way and finally everyone is coming forward to tell their stories!!
My kid playing lacrosse in high school. He would empty the benches at the end of the game, except my kid. It was so hard to watch. To my son's credit, he would not let me talk to that disgrace of a coach. In one game, the other team has huge defensive players. All the kids are getting crushed. So he puts my kid in. His stands in front, get hammered, but scores....in first 30 seconds. 1 minute later, same play and he gets crushed, but scores. The kid has to be helped off the field and the coach says, "wow, 2 lucky goals...but you let them hit you too hard." I was about 25 feet away and I started moving to the coach. Another dad stopped me and said, "I heard that too. I will,report it tomorrow and he is gone next year." He took a kid that literally played or talked about playing 24/7, and he beat the love of the game out of him. I asked around to see if maybe my kid had popped off in practice or something. The trainer told me that no, my kid was the most polite on the team. It turned out that at half-time, especially when losing, the coach would say, "ok kid, you say u love lacrosse, what do you think we should do?" And then my son would break down the first half and say what changes should be made. I learned that my son, but not the coached, watched film of games to learn. The coach would the poo-poo my son's ideas.....talk about something else for 5'minutes ....and then say what to do for 2nd half, which was essentially what my kid just said. You see, a man would have encouraged him to consider coaching. Perhaps tried to pass his know,edge to my son. But, this peace of garbage had so little self confidence, that he had to steal the kid's ideas...and then make fun of him....to make himself look better. He was a 30 year old coach. My kid was 15. All I can say is that if I ever get the chance, he and I are going to have a go. I just watched this scum break my kid's love of the game. 2 goals in 2 minutes. That was his whole season. Even the team's stars were offering to sit so my son could play more. Nope. I dont understand how anybody does that. I have coached. I tell kids early on that they will be riding the bench most likely. But, everybody gets in during garbage time. Who holds one player back? I only really hate a few people....and that POS IS one.
Jamie, I guess you want to be in the position to interview Babcock down the way, so say what you need to. Jeff was a great player and is retired and has nothing to lose, so I am in his corner on this and agree. Babcock = BAD GUY
Mike Commodore is so damn honest with things he said about Babs it is impossible for it to be true. And its very insightful the kind of person Babs is.
The part about his biases and judgements to players was spot on as a coach you need to see the light from your players...not the darkness, it seemed Babcock was far too negative...id say his permanent expression matches
You start to look at the evidence and you can really see who the person really is. And the reason why they don't call him out earlier was because he was a coach and the players just wanted to play hockey.
No one wanted to bring it up because they know it's club in the NHL. They circulate coaches and GMs no matter how terrible they do the job or the type of person. These guys all protect each other and players know that. Many players in the past had careers cancelled not because they couldn't play in the league but because they pissed off the wrong owner, manager or coach.
Babcock is in a position with no power at the moment , cant bench a rookie who steps up to speak out for example , coaches like him can destroy careers , or more correct have destroyed careers.
@@macdaddy351000 That's about it, hero to zero in no time. Now all the players and media jump on the blame game. Wonder what the excuse will be when they go on another skid
Another sad commentary. No one felt ok to speak up. Makes me have more respect for Dan Carrcillo outing the mistreatment of kids in youth hockey. Damn.
If Babcock is the biggest a-hole in the league....Paul Maclean can be his VP. Those Detroit locker rooms from 06-10 got the wake up of a lifetime going from Scotty to babs. By the way Jamie completely nailed it with the Darryl Sutter comparison
Leivo* and yes man I liked him and he had a tremendous upside if you played him with the right guys but Babs hated him I don't know why if leivo was on the team he would be a solid 3rd line Powerforward to play with Spezza and Kerfoot! But nope and Calle Rosen was another casualty never enough ice time even though he wasnt the worse luckily we saved Justin Holl from the Same fate almost but I could tell the type of person Babs was as soon as he got his second season unwilling to change and adapt to the new style we are trying to get to and this Marner story just exposed him as the person he is! And just as an Added note the amount of decent players we lost in the babcock years are nuts Daniel Winnik Soshnikov Bernier Rosen Kadri(Win/Win) Matt Martin ( Wasn't the worst but the contract sucked but we wish we had that grit now) Connor Carrick Leivo Zaitsev who now I believed wanted out of Toronto because of Babs like the faq was Babs playing at over these few seasons jesus
I like the former hockey players take on this, the guy on the right. I like how he's concerned about people taking years later about bad stuff the human being do. The guy in the middle has a hateful vendetta
A lot of coaches could have coached the Wings to a cup and won the golds with Canada. If you're going to look at both sides however losing 3 playoff rounds to the Bruins was arguably like losing in the Stanley Cup finals.
Wallace McDonut that’s not saying the Bruins made it to the final but rather that they were likely as good as either of the teams in the cup finals those years
Glenn Gayet ...still nonsense. "Anyone could have coached the Wings and the Canadian golds?" You don't have to like Babcock as a person, but you can't argue his achievements with such bs. He is who he is. How quickly the Toronto media forget that the Leafs were bottom of the NHL not long ago. They became a playoff 100 point team under Babcock. Everything was going in the right direction. Then in comes Dubass and digs a trench around Babcock to watch him fall and bring in his own guy. Even Lou Lam didn't want anything to do with Dubass. He was meant to stay at the Leafs org after his gixed term as GM in an advisory role but Dubass cancelled it. Dubass has fucked up almost every contract deal he tried to make with the Leafs and then oveerpaid all the new kids, and then last summer released(fired) all Babcock's support staff and brought in Keefe's guys. Babcock was isolated and pushed out by Dubass and is now the scapegoat for Dubass fuckups because now all the kids got their money their incentive to work has disappeared. Dubass is a snake and he has done this to every organization he has been in. Ste St Marie, Marlies, Leafs. He talks a good plan and then undermines the incumbant. Time will tell if Keefe has the right stuff. This is the NHL though. Not the OHL or AHL. We'll see what happens. Honeymoon period right now. Lets see how long that lasts. Lets see if he gets the work ethic requird when they are up against the wall v Boston.
that d man on Detroit made him famous, the best d man I ever have seen not named bobby orr, there is a reason this comes out, it does not fall out of the sky.
Ilikebeaversandeaglesupyourass Its a metaphor. Obviously I have no idea what it was like in WW1 nor does Babcock or anybody living today. Thanks for clarifying that.
Babcocks crime was that he didn't treat Mitch and Willie with kid gloves. The problem isn't the coach, its players whose performance on the ice doesn't match their huge ego's.
@@abr1304 Yep, if I recall correctly, he said that he reported being molested by his junior coach, but was told he was making things up and no one believed him, until others came forward much later in Jerome's NHL career about the same thing from the same coach.
glad this is coming out...nice to hear the truth...and no coach deserved this kind of crazy contract...8 years, 50 million..terrible, dreadful contract...not smart at all...keefe will be fine...time to move on, move forward...go get those cups guys...eye on the prize...go leafs go
There were tons of stories of how babcock was a hard ass long before coming to toronto. He’s always been known as coach like keenan and torts, A rough coach that doesn’t last long. These are just the details for why that is now
Maybe that’s why Nylander, Matthews and Marner asked for so much to stay.
That's a really good point. I'd ask for a lot more money and hold out if my boss was a dick.
Life lessons right here
Cole Veasey they will all be gone in 2 years and it won’t be because of Babcock.
1000%
@@ryana3679 any team will take them im sure.
I heard Steve Yzerman didn't like him, that's enough for me.
That says a lot.
Good point, yzerman left being a part of Detroit while Babcock was there but came back now after he’s gone....sure it was a better position in Tampa but if he knew he was gonna take over in Detroit don’t u think he woulda waited....I dunno
@@derekfuller1543 What? Babcock in Detroit had nothing to do with Yzerman staying or leaving. Holland didn't want to give up the reins at the time, period.
steven moretto calm down bud just having a lil fun with conspiracy theories here, have you been to Detroit? I’d leave that city for a gig at Dunkin Donuts
Not true at all. Very much a bullshit statement!!!!! Steve did like him. They would Hag out a lot. You guys and your fucking lies. Don’t listen to everything you hear on here. Your talking about the crying tornado maple Leafs. We’re all the players are being over paid. The GM paid these guys lots of money and let the kids walk on him.
Being a Wings fan I specifically remember hearing through a good source that Lindstrom would only stick around if Babs left and he didn’t so Linds retired. This doesn’t surprise me.
Not true, Nick was going to retire in 2012 at the age of 40.
@Full Circle there is no way you're a wings fan, you don't even know his name. It's Lidstrom. And he was 42 when he retired. That is well beyond the age a typical NHL star retires at. Lidstrom is way to mentally tough to let an old school hard nosed coach get to him. Marner is a bitch.
Who's Lindstrom?
Marchand deserves 3 games for this
This old comment is popping up again
@@345Taco So are the responses, like yours, if you think about it, so why give in to the annoying reoccurring theme?
@@drumdrumjimmmy You responding to the response some how disqualifies you from giving in to the ''annoying reoccurring theme?''
@@drumdrumjimmmy Marchy deserves at least 2 games for this
Hahaha, nice.
Jamie, if you were playing for him? Are you going to call him out? I don't think so, stop trying to defend him.
there is a power dynamic in an abusive relationship and the guy is the coach for team canada. but yeah good point jamie, good point
Good point, apparently Mike Tomlin hated all the b.s Antonio Brown pulled when he played for the steelers. Do you think he's going to say anything while he's on the team? No way.
Jamie didn’t defend him at all???? He was just asking why this didn’t come out sooner lmao
@@chadjohnson608 Of course no player will bring this out when he's the coach. to suggest that a player would do it is total ridiculous. Babs is the coach of the Canadian team. You think anyone wants to be on his bad side.
ibopwebop Why not bring it up if it’s 100% wrong of the coach to do? Bring your issues to the GM and ask to remain anonymous.
really hate when someone starts with no one is perfect, blah blah, thats b.s. a lot of people go their entire lives and not treat people like garbage.....
well seriously no one is perfect.
Name one person who hasnt made of of others ever
@@tbc9652 so what you are saying is you yourself go out of your way to treat people poorly, so you have no self control what so ever
@@alejbr4 no I'm just saying that there is not one single human being on this planet that hasn't made fun of someone at one point in their lives
@@tbc9652 I have never done so as an adult. I have never treated a coworker poorly, and I would never emotionally manipulate someone. Once you are an adult, you are responsible for your actions.
You either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain.
Don't worry leafs will either get knocked out first round again and call for keefed head or not makebthe playoffs and blame it on Babcock Lmfao
Andrew Ruggiero no no no I kill the bus driver
so witch one are you?
@@andrewruggiero1735 Ok, Nostradamus
What??? You expect better from this BS culture??? GFY. lmao
With all of Babcock's success it's easy to overlook the fact that he inherited a dynasty in Detroit and got to coach a stacked team Canada. That's like being given a ferrari and having to race against Ford Pinto's. I saw all I needed to see when he scratched Spezza on opening night against his old team...DBag move.
Yeah but the consensus is still that he’s a “good coach” but a piece of shit and a terrible person. He’s a dickhead but gets the most out of his players “until, they say fuck this you’re a dick and tune him out”
I am amazed when people say " why are people saying things now?" If you know how power works you would know how stupid this statement is. Reprisal happens all the time. People are afraid of the consequences to their career and livelihood. Sorry Jamie, your comments are naive.
No wonder all those guys weren’t taking any lower contracts
pay me more to suffer :)
Love the city and the logo you work for,
What would you have done?
Baby Bishop y.
@Chris Scheben your right but it’s because they wanted to stay with the team waiting for him to get fired
I see why these guys hold out on re signing in Toronto. Hopefully it's not an issue anymore.
Idk. Seems like everyone gets this treatment after they leave Toronto.... lol.
I think it cost Detroit another cup. Players didnt want to sign there after awhile, because nobody wanted to play for him.
@@matth268 So what other coach had stories of abusive behavior toward players. I don't remember it happening. I don't remember hearing anything about Pat Quinn or Pat Burns or Ron Wilson or even Carlyle.
It won't make their contracts less for the future, for a long time.
FLGiggles2 Babcock will not get another job unless he seriously smooths this over. The players carry too much power for this to go away. This is just the beginning of this.
Does he really deserve to be in the Hall? He rode a fantastic performance by Giggy to the cup final with Anaheim, then won 1 cup with the insanely stacked Red Wings, before never winning a playoff round in Toronto.
Don’t even mention the gold medals, any coach in the NHL or even AHL could take that roster and win gold
Right? Same could be said about that Detroit team. Any NHL or AHL coach prob could’ve won one cup with a team that’s one of the best of all time lmao
@@stevenst6337 You do know Babcock was not the coach of the 2002 Wings right? The 2008 team while still pretty good with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom and Franzen ect...was far from one of the best all time. Hell they added Hossa after winning that cup and lost in the finals to the Pens in 2009. Scotty Bowman was the coach of the 2002 hall of fame team.
dcz28 yeah I know that, he still inherited one of the greatest teams of all time bud. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, yeah they were “ pretty good”
dcz28 they went to the finals back to back years 07-09 with Babcock. They would of done that either with or without him
Yes he deserves to be in the HOF. Im not even a Leafs fan or a fan of any team hes coached, but hes one of the more successful coaches of all time and his hockey knowledge is beyond respected. Easy to say "anyone can win with that roster" till you notice how many times Canada didnt win with stacked rosters.
And yes it was a disappoitment that TOR never won a playoff round, but part of that is due to the stupid new format. Who did Toronto really lose to? They lost to top 3 teams each of the past 3 years in very tough series'. People act like they were getting blown out by the Canes or Sens in the playoffs. They played the Bruins tougher than any other East team did, tahts damn sure
The Speeza thing was annoying and Speeza came out like a pro. How about that, eh?
Something about this video makes me feel like he’s a “bad guy” I just can’t put my finger on it tho
Sir Duck I did my research on the guy and without getting into specifics take my word for it. He’s a bad guy!
Ahahhaha
It comes down to a human value scheme it seems ,being part of head games, but at the end of the day what do you really value? Something isn't right ,I have talked to hundreds of people over the years and body language and eye movement can also say much.There is a toxic feel by so many that have spoke up.
Your post is corny af
Babcock making Marner do this is bad, obviously. However, I'd be way more concerned if the entire organization knew about this (which they probably did) and didn't do anything about it
Alex Hutcheson There's no way Shanny didn't know about this. Lou or Dubas, maybe. I doubt it, but whatever. But there's no way in Hell that Shanahan didn't know this was going on.
@@fabriziolorenzo2392 Completely agree, though we will probably never know if anything was actually done about it or not
Shanny and Lou knew about it and Babcock apologized immediately after
Sorry I'm out of the loop. What happened between Marner and Babcock?
He was the same guy when you hired him for record breaking amounts Toronto. The more right you are for firing him the more wrong you are for hiring him.
Nikita Zietsev sure wanted out fast.
Imagine hating your head coach so much that you’re willing to accept a trade to Ottawa just to get away from him. Babcock is that toxic.
DerJungeMiroslav 🤣🤣
He signed with Lou and Babs though for 7 years. Dubas was the variable in that equation. But now I'm rethinking that.
@@icas80 Petty sure Zeitsev witnessed more than one form of abuse. I know this though, he hated seeing some players kiss Mike's ass.
Glad he Got the f out
It’s good odog is speaking with emotion on this. Wrong is wrong. No need to justify it. I wonder if Tortz is equally bad
i mean comie been saying it for years on chiclets lol
Josh Levi lighting it up when they gave him to Vancouver. Good hometown boy.
Couldn't possibly be because he was playing with Pettersson and Boeser
@@TheCanadaboy44 he had 10 points in 13 games at one point and babs sent him down..give it a rest, Babs a loser!
@@TheCanadaboy44 Hes not though
I wonder if he was one of the reasons Leafs had to pay so much to get their guys signed.
They had to pay cause someone else would of
I remember when he left Detroit Johan Franzen would rag on him constantly on Instagram. Johan being under contract still I am sure was told to ease up.
Take a shot everytime you hear “bad guy”
Nate Potter I think Jeff was upset because he had some coaches treat him bad in the past and the memories were stirring up some bad feelings
@@thevegangiant5589 100% true guy was one of the laziest players around his coaches and GM's said as much. Don't think its a coincidence O'Dog is the only player Jim Rutherford had gone to arb. with. " I did my research I called a few guys I know hate him!" people hate Scotty Bowman A LOT too is he some horrendous human being?
*dies*
good way to end up with alcohol poisoning
3:37 in. I’m opening my third bottle now..... 😳
Certainly doesn't help that he got completely outcoached by Bruce frickin' Cassidy two years in a row.
Commodore has been saying it forever and I think a lot of people probably just assumed it was sour grapes or something on his part but now it is all coming out.
I just love watching overdrive. All 3 bring different perspectives that are important. Respect to Jeff O'Neill for how spot on he was here.
Marner close to 100 pts under a guy he probably couldn't stand.... Imagine when he's playing happy.
Still cant produce.
@@mchammer1809 still
😢 still not yet
O dog was repeating “bad guy” over and over that I almost expected Razor Ramon to appear on set with “Say hello to the bad guy” lol
Bad guy was him self censoring
Ahahahha best coment! Love me some Razor Ramon LOL
It is THE worst name to be labeled by players in any league of hockey. Just trust me, it's truly not good, because it's psychological abusiveness.
He listens to Billie Eilish
He's a Baddddddddddd Guyyyyyyyyy.... Duh
I'd like to see Modano sign with Minnesota or Dallas for a single game. Take the opening faceoff and skate off the ice...he deserves that 1500th career game.
Met him at a bar downtown calgary when he was with detroit. Tries to introduce myself and tell him im a big fan of his work and he told me to fuck off and leave him alone.
What a dough bag … you should have told him to FO
Christmas came early for Commodore; it's in November
The media needs to take a good long hard look at themselves, because they definitely enabled this erratic coaching behavior. Babcock was more or less deified in the Toronto media the past 3-4 years because of his contract and perceived pedigree.
Why would any reasonable person risk their career/livelihood attacking a deified figure, especially one with a winning pedigree? They would get LAMBASTED by journalists, which would then trickle down to fans.
Even most people when hearing Mike Commodore a while back before the Leafs started sucking were saying, “he’s just a disgruntled guy with an axe to grind”. We tend to overlook coaching tactics when their team is winning hockey games.
Wow, you are clueless and way off base. Do some real research
Redwings players say the same horror stories
@@BloodFireDoom dude he's not wrong..
I dont care how many gold medals or cups he has. If your given a team that stacked you better have something to show for it
I feel like almost any coach could have won the cup or the gold medals with those teams
Amen. Been saying it for years from the time he was hired. Old style hockey was phased out why wouldnt old style coaching be too
I keep seeing this retarded argument "Anyone could've won with those teams." You could use that argument to discredit literally every single coach that has ever won anything.
Your goalie is like 20th in sv%, your defense is atrocious and you have no one who can play the pk. Sure blame the top 10 coach of all time, would make sense coming from Leafs fans lmfao
@@greasyslickwaterbuffalo3287 lmao, he has been gone for 2 games and there has already been massive improvement. I dont know how anyone could not think he was the problem.
soaringbullet lol. Their current style works great against average teams in the regular season. As soon as they come up against a heavy, high compete level, physical team in the playoffs, I think they get beat. I think it took Babcock 3 years to figure that out.
At 4:53 O-dog makes a comment about Babcock sitting Justin Holl for 70 plus games and didn't think he was a player.... Justin Holl looked like a quite serviceable player this year for the Leafs.
He picked marner because marners dad was the same way and so he became an easy target
justingt3rs it was basically bullying
Dad was the same way? Elaborate
@@RawDogTV his old man is a bit of a character to put it lightly
I wonder just how much Babcock ‘contributed’ to the success of the teams he has been with. When Babcock won, his teams were loaded up with talented players. Look at the Wings etc. What does an NHL coach ‘bring’ to a team environment? It seems that Babcock needed to ensure that he had a psychological EDGE over his players in order to motivate them. Even more of a tribute to those players who won in SPITE of Babcocks bullying tactics. If there are great players who can’t cope with this type of mental ABUSE, ultimately they will likely underperform. Was Babcock the ONLY coach who could have won in 2010? I think that’s unlikely in the extreme.
Finally, the real Babcock story is coming out. His use of spare players was absurd, how he regularly blew up his back up goalies was ridiculous, it goes on and on.
Funny how your post 3 years ago is showing itself to be true today.
Hey O'neil, How do you really feel about Babcock?
The Leafs had to pay so much for Marner & Matthews to entice them to play for Babcock.
peacefulposter not true
@@NoLoVeLoStNoLoVfOuNd Is true!
@@NoLoVeLoStNoLoVfOuNd True, doode.
@7:22. 2 yrs later and he hasn't been offered another (NHL) job, and he wont be going into the HOF.
I've been listening to these guys over the last year, and can't even put a number of times they called out Babcock on some bad decision, bad line change, putting out the fourth line or wrong player in the wrong situation. Game seven against the bruins, was all on babock because his top two lines where on the bench from 5 minute stretches getting cold waiting fro the third and fourth line to get off. O'dog was right, why didn't MLSE (shanahan) not get rid of him in the summer and get the new coach implementing a system.
I'm starting to love O-dog. Guy says what's on his mind.
Hes a idiot
Joanne Clarke yeah, but that comment makes you sound really intelligent
Lol. Except when he’s in a phone call with a certain figure.
Joanne Clarke “a idiot” that’s ironic
@@joanneclarke8272 you need mental help immediately
I can only wonder how Paul Kariya, Steve Rucchin, JS Giguere, Adam Oates and the rest of the 2003 Mighty Ducks of Anaheim feel about Mr. Babcock.
didnt hear one bad thing from any of them players or crosby only old washed up players
The guy on the right..stop saying why it did not come out earlier..just because players were scared to talk about his abuse all these years , does not mean it was ok and we should not blame Bab now.
Being Toxic is a Way of Life for some folks
This video aged well….
I agree with Noodles, the people that knew this was going on should have had the balls to say something or call MB out on it. No one speaks up anymore, everyone is scared but as soon as the guy is gone, everyone becomes a tough guy. I can now understand why the young guys held out/demanded so much money to play for Babcock, he was hard to deal with and be around.
Good point. Never considered the coaching situation would play a factor. Nylander, marner, matthews probably thought they had a few more years of him
And get blackballed from the league. That would of been daf
06:05....The coach O-Dog is talking about has to be Paul Maurice.
He coached Jeff on three separate occasions, if I remember correctly.
It could be Peter Laviolette, but Maurice coached O-Dog for at least 75% of his career.
This has been going on forever.. I had a junior coach who dressed me, as a 20 year old and a point a game player, to sit on the bench the whole game.. Just to get his "superstar" motivated
All the more reason it needs to stop.
@@joer8854 thats just one i have 2 more.. I was also made to rot as a 19 year old twice by 2 different coaches.. I honestly thought it was me.. 1. I had 10pts in 7 games.. Invite to SPHL. Coach said if I go I don't have a spot if i am cut.. Ok i stay then im not playing..2. Not getting much ice but playing 3rd line. Someone yells at our coach he assumes its my father and im on the bench not seeing any ice.. Literally sat on the bench 60mins a game.
*yawn*
@@Hyperi0nn let me guess.. You are one of the guys that tormented and hazed Rookies. That's fine.. The 3 coaches I mentioned ALL in junior A.. ALL currently being contacted by hockey canada... But hey keep it up 👍
@@thet3504 I understand now why you have been benched.
I knew the Leafs were tanking on purpose during that six game losing streak. The fact that they started winning IMMEDIATELY after Babcocks firing just proves it. Now we know why.
Sounds like Mike Keenan
Marner never said anything because as bad as things might have been, he wanted to be a leaf and if he were to come out and speak at the time then he probably feared the inner workings of what might have happened on any given day where he wakes up and finds himself traded. Leaf fans stick by Marner... he won't disappoint you in the end.
I've heard Dubas wanted to fire Babs in the offseason but Shanny decided to give him one last go. It seems odd they fired him on a road trip. However, I bet that the players only meeting the team had was them agreeing to send a message to Shanny saying , either through a message delivered by Johnny T or their play, that they needed Babs gone. They basically gave up at puck drop in Vegas and Pitty after that. Shanny has no choice now, tells Dubas he can fire him, and the second he's able to Kyle tells Babs to hit the bricks. That's gotta be the way this played out.
Sounds accurate to me
MAF made a miracle save late in the 3rd and stopped it from going to OT. I often wonder, if MAF doesn't make that save and the Leafs win in OT does Babs still get fired. And if that was the start of a win streak?
@@tmlms1313 no way they go on that streak under Babs. They hated him. Just having him gone made them so happy they went on a massive win streak lol
Nazem Kadri is saying I told you so.
Noodles has the best take on this scenario. If the leafs were winning, he’d still be the coach and no one would be saying shit.
Yeah except stuff like this has been coming out when he was the coach, and they weren’t winning with him
Here we are 3 years later and the Leafs still haven’t won a round. What comes to mind for me is this; Brendan Shanahan surely knew/knows Babcock, intimately as a hockey guy because he played for Babcock. What was the thought process bringing in Babcock and this ‘style’ of coach knowing full well that this team would be young and inexperienced at the NHL level. I’m left thinking that there are some details about how decisions of this type are made. What critical things are we not privy to regarding the ‘relationship’ between players and management. Certainly Shanahan was a hard nosed and terrific player. Perhaps there is a negative situation or atmosphere in and around the Leafs. Certainly they were allowed some leeway around the dress code and we’re always shown how much fun the players have in their downtime at Scotiabank arena.
Just to sum up, Brendan Shanahan has been at the helm for something like 8 years with NO POSITIVE RESULTS IN THE PLAYOFFS. This MUST BE THE YEAR FOR SOMETHING MORE IN THE PLAYOFFS or changes MUST BE MADE. The Leafs, on paper, should have been able to progress farther in previous seasons, however have come up short EVERY YEAR…
This is going to get a lot deeper. His career is done
I dunno let a year go by and a team really needing to make a run might happen
No. Look at his record and tell me which other coaches have accomplished as much as Mike Babcock? That's a short list.
Yes, I know Detroit had good teams and players, but all Stanley Cup winning coaches have good players. You can't win with stiffs.
James Anthony doesn’t mean that organizations won’t avoid him. No team wants a cancer in the locker room that immediately makes your contracts get more expensive because he’s a POS.
@@ianwamsley2595 Teams may avoid him for a number of reasons: his age; his contract demands; lack of recent playoff success; etc. Would THEY view him as a cancer? I don't know.
If I were to hire him, I'd want to ask him about exactly what happened in Toronto, his take, and not what has been reported, spread by the media and fans, etc.
@@jamesanthony5681 Mike sullivan won twice as many cups as Babs did with less talent and in 2 years.
Hockey guys don’t run their mouths in general. Commie is one of the few that spoke.
It’s kind of ‘Me Too’-esque in a way and finally everyone is coming forward to tell their stories!!
My kid playing lacrosse in high school. He would empty the benches at the end of the game, except my kid. It was so hard to watch. To my son's credit, he would not let me talk to that disgrace of a coach. In one game, the other team has huge defensive players. All the kids are getting crushed. So he puts my kid in. His stands in front, get hammered, but scores....in first 30 seconds. 1 minute later, same play and he gets crushed, but scores. The kid has to be helped off the field and the coach says, "wow, 2 lucky goals...but you let them hit you too hard." I was about 25 feet away and I started moving to the coach. Another dad stopped me and said, "I heard that too. I will,report it tomorrow and he is gone next year." He took a kid that literally played or talked about playing 24/7, and he beat the love of the game out of him. I asked around to see if maybe my kid had popped off in practice or something. The trainer told me that no, my kid was the most polite on the team. It turned out that at half-time, especially when losing, the coach would say, "ok kid, you say u love lacrosse, what do you think we should do?" And then my son would break down the first half and say what changes should be made. I learned that my son, but not the coached, watched film of games to learn. The coach would the poo-poo my son's ideas.....talk about something else for 5'minutes ....and then say what to do for 2nd half, which was essentially what my kid just said. You see, a man would have encouraged him to consider coaching. Perhaps tried to pass his know,edge to my son. But, this peace of garbage had so little self confidence, that he had to steal the kid's ideas...and then make fun of him....to make himself look better. He was a 30 year old coach. My kid was 15. All I can say is that if I ever get the chance, he and I are going to have a go. I just watched this scum break my kid's love of the game. 2 goals in 2 minutes. That was his whole season. Even the team's stars were offering to sit so my son could play more. Nope. I dont understand how anybody does that. I have coached. I tell kids early on that they will be riding the bench most likely. But, everybody gets in during garbage time. Who holds one player back? I only really hate a few people....and that POS IS one.
Jamie, I guess you want to be in the position to interview Babcock down the way, so say what you need to. Jeff was a great player and is retired and has nothing to lose, so I am in his corner on this and agree. Babcock = BAD GUY
Mike Commodore is so damn honest with things he said about Babs it is impossible for it to be true. And its very insightful the kind of person Babs is.
The part about his biases and judgements to players was spot on as a coach you need to see the light from your players...not the darkness, it seemed Babcock was far too negative...id say his permanent expression matches
I don't know what the hell Jamie is saying... I'd love to have a talk with JS Smith and Jim Hiller and hear what they have to say about Babs...
Leivo, Spezza,Holl, Matthews.. Commodore, Frasee confirms many more horror stories, it eeally does t end with this dirt bag
@Don Juan crosby???
@Don Juan bullshit. No facts to that
You start to look at the evidence and you can really see who the person really is. And the reason why they don't call him out earlier was because he was a coach and the players just wanted to play hockey.
Not alot of coaches like the great Barry Trotz. On and off the ice a great man💙🧡
No one wanted to bring it up because they know it's club in the NHL. They circulate coaches and GMs no matter how terrible they do the job or the type of person. These guys all protect each other and players know that. Many players in the past had careers cancelled not because they couldn't play in the league but because they pissed off the wrong owner, manager or coach.
Why has this all came out now before this everyone loved him
Babcock is in a position with no power at the moment , cant bench a rookie who steps up to speak out for example , coaches like him can destroy careers , or more correct have destroyed careers.
God Babcock was a saviour a couple years ago now look at them shit on him
No shit, typical Toronto media and fans.
I don't blame them. We had no idea
Tempus OG shows that what you did prior for that organization is quickly forgotten the moment the team struggles. Only in Toronto
@@macdaddy351000 That's about it, hero to zero in no time. Now all the players and media jump on the blame game. Wonder what the excuse will be when they go on another skid
Spud likely will be Dubas. Who else left is there. Wash rinse repeat. Been going on since 1967.
Another sad commentary.
No one felt ok to speak up. Makes me have more respect for Dan Carrcillo outing the mistreatment of kids in youth hockey. Damn.
"When you leave Anaheim, no one even cares." Good point.
If Babcock is the biggest a-hole in the league....Paul Maclean can be his VP. Those Detroit locker rooms from 06-10 got the wake up of a lifetime going from Scotty to babs.
By the way Jamie completely nailed it with the Darryl Sutter comparison
It’s 2022 and he still doesn’t have a job
An NHL coach playing mind games! Mike Keenan and Scotty Bowman would be shocked and appalled.
Whatever works and i bet you the players wouldn't trade their experience in for a chance with a "nicer" coach
There’s a difference between challenges and bullying. Mike’s a bully.
You need mental help immediately
@floxy20 Very true. Players like Shawn Burr used to complain about Scotty Bowman all the time.
And did Bowman harass/abuse his player's?
Crazy how badly the media has turned on him. Players on other teams will want no part of Babcock. Might cost him a few jobs.
Sports Fan_91 lol good
Thats the Toronto market for ya. No other team deals with the pressure they have. Theyre the dallas cowboys of hockey
Odog for the next coaches corner
Josh leivo , has got to have a story . Anyone heard it yet ??
Theo fleury could probably tell you why you don’t say something. Principal is the same.
joebluerice I mean... a little different
@@richardleppanen8693 definitely, balls deep.
Did babs shower with him as well
*story releases*
Ass hats on TSN "I kNoW aLl AbOuT tHiS gUy"
Should have kept Levo.
Leivo* and yes man I liked him and he had a tremendous upside if you played him with the right guys but Babs hated him I don't know why if leivo was on the team he would be a solid 3rd line Powerforward to play with Spezza and Kerfoot! But nope and Calle Rosen was another casualty never enough ice time even though he wasnt the worse luckily we saved Justin Holl from the Same fate almost but I could tell the type of person Babs was as soon as he got his second season unwilling to change and adapt to the new style we are trying to get to and this Marner story just exposed him as the person he is!
And just as an Added note the amount of decent players we lost in the babcock years are nuts
Daniel Winnik
Soshnikov
Bernier
Rosen
Kadri(Win/Win)
Matt Martin ( Wasn't the worst but the contract sucked but we wish we had that grit now)
Connor Carrick
Leivo
Zaitsev who now I believed wanted out of Toronto because of Babs like the faq was Babs playing at over these few seasons jesus
and Kadri ...
I like the former hockey players take on this, the guy on the right. I like how he's concerned about people taking years later about bad stuff the human being do. The guy in the middle has a hateful vendetta
A lot of coaches could have coached the Wings to a cup and won the golds with Canada. If you're going to look at both sides however losing 3 playoff rounds to the Bruins was arguably like losing in the Stanley Cup finals.
Glenn Gayet ..that literally makes no sense dude.
Wallace McDonut that’s not saying the Bruins made it to the final but rather that they were likely as good as either of the teams in the cup finals those years
Glenn Gayet ...still nonsense. "Anyone could have coached the Wings and the Canadian golds?" You don't have to like Babcock as a person, but you can't argue his achievements with such bs. He is who he is. How quickly the Toronto media forget that the Leafs were bottom of the NHL not long ago. They became a playoff 100 point team under Babcock. Everything was going in the right direction. Then in comes Dubass and digs a trench around Babcock to watch him fall and bring in his own guy. Even Lou Lam didn't want anything to do with Dubass. He was meant to stay at the Leafs org after his gixed term as GM in an advisory role but Dubass cancelled it. Dubass has fucked up almost every contract deal he tried to make with the Leafs and then oveerpaid all the new kids, and then last summer released(fired) all Babcock's support staff and brought in Keefe's guys. Babcock was isolated and pushed out by Dubass and is now the scapegoat for Dubass fuckups because now all the kids got their money their incentive to work has disappeared. Dubass is a snake and he has done this to every organization he has been in. Ste St Marie, Marlies, Leafs. He talks a good plan and then undermines the incumbant. Time will tell if Keefe has the right stuff. This is the NHL though. Not the OHL or AHL. We'll see what happens. Honeymoon period right now. Lets see how long that lasts. Lets see if he gets the work ethic requird when they are up against the wall v Boston.
that d man on Detroit made him famous, the best d man I ever have seen not named bobby orr, there is a reason this comes out, it does not fall out of the sky.
No wonder the Leaf players did not want to play for this Pyscho coach
That guy in the middle sure is objective. lol
@Scotland1908 you need mental help immediately
Babcock seems to have treated his teams like they were in WW1
Ilikebeaversandeaglesupyourass Its a metaphor. Obviously I have no idea what it was like in WW1 nor does Babcock or anybody living today. Thanks for clarifying that.
I love O-Dog Meltdowns. Totally on point :)
“Leaf fan rants about Mike Babcock..”
Lmao why wasn’t he called on it while he was the coach ....
Babcocks crime was that he didn't treat Mitch and Willie with kid gloves. The problem isn't the coach, its players whose performance on the ice doesn't match their huge ego's.
Go ask Jerome Igilnia(sp?) on why people don't come out about their coach until later...
Michael Gouker can you please explain?
@@abr1304 Yep, if I recall correctly, he said that he reported being molested by his junior coach, but was told he was making things up and no one believed him, until others came forward much later in Jerome's NHL career about the same thing from the same coach.
Michael Gouker oh true thanks for the explanation
I forgot how fired up O Dog gets talking about Babcock. Fair enough really.
Surprises me that people are piling on like this
They did the same thing to Phil Kessel. Toronto always looks for a scapegoat
Leafs media is pure shit.
glad this is coming out...nice to hear the truth...and no coach deserved this kind of crazy contract...8 years, 50 million..terrible, dreadful contract...not smart at all...keefe will be fine...time to move on, move forward...go get those cups guys...eye on the prize...go leafs go
Cant blame him for taking the money and running
But if they had have won a couple rounds, babs would still be here. Lol guy just couldn’t get the team over the hump.
Cody Chambers facts lol
Not wrong. That’s the truth.
Andi Petrillo literally said this last week and Leafs fans were giving her shit about it. I don’t understand
I've literally never heard anything bad about Babcock before he got fired. People have always talked of his class. What's going on?
There were tons of stories of how babcock was a hard ass long before coming to toronto.
He’s always been known as coach like keenan and torts, A rough coach that doesn’t last long. These are just the details for why that is now
I've heard horror stories long before he was in Toronto...even though before I watched hockey. That's saying something
Lmfao leafs have no idea gow bad there gonna be 2 years from bow
@@andrewruggiero1735 lollll whoopsy wrong comment!
@Trev Gord exactly
That "apology" from Babcock seems as genuine as Kevin Spacey. I feel for Marner and I hope no one hires Babcock now.
Babcock could coach his style in the 1960's-2000's, but now players are different.
@autistic Hockeyguy facts. Society learnt a lot of leader figures we're reprehensible bullies who use power to belittle
Man I completely agree with you he is too stubborn and is a old school coach who’s style won’t work for a new school team like the leafs
Shanahan was the one who hired him right? Shanny is a noble and respectable guy who also played under Babcock so he saw what goes on. Why bring him ?
"So everybody say goodnight to the bad man! The truth ez, ju people need bad guys like me."
What did he get Ovi to do and when?