Also: starting with this video, I’ll sometimes be posting ‘end notes’ or brief mini-essays expanding a point or idea, on my Patreon page. All tiers of Patron can view these, and here’s the first one - for this video! www.patreon.com/posts/endnote-weird-of-76120205?Link&
I think the best way to fix this is to start exploring the trauma Peter has experienced over the years, to explore all of the things he went through. There's Uncle Ben's death, which it seems in this universe didn't have the big "power comes responsibility" ending and instead is just sad. His parents death could even be tied into it. Exploring the effects of becoming a hero and not being recognized for it, living with Aunt May who is obviously better now but for a long time... probably wouldn't be. Exploring the effects of the snap and Tony Stark's death and the mantle that he has to take on a much smaller scale than it did in FFH. The individual effect on Peter himself. In NWH those legal proceedings and the constant hate toward him lasted for months. The beginning of the movie is in the middle of the summer and the end is in the fall. now he's cut himself off from everyone and he's almost killed a man. Tom Holland Spider-Man 4 can truly be about a broken Spider-Man in the way Tobey Maguire Spider-Man 3 failed to do. Peter has learned his lesson but... not really. Years of some of the worst possible things happening to him has changed him and they can really explore that. This leads perfectly into the venom storyline where for the next couple appearances he's just going to get worse and worse. If the MCU wants to fix this pretty big screw up they have to work with a darker Spider-Man.
8:42 Because MCU Spider-Man is just like his Superhero Daddy Tony Stark aka Iron Man, in some ways. Who also was forcibly stopped by Steve Rogers aka Captain America from deleting Bucky Barnes aka The Winter Soldier. In Captain America Civil War. That’s not weird, it’s brilliant. The MCU has not now or ever been Earth 616. The Avengers send their enemies to the grave more than not in the MCU. Loki received mercy because of his brother Thor. But Iron Man used a nuke against Thanos Armada. Ultron received no mercy from Vision. Thanos was deleted in cold blood by Thor Odinson. Who previously intended to delete Thanos very slowly and painfully in Avengers Infinity War. It’s great that in Spider-Man: No Way Home that they show how different of a superhero culture Tom Holland’s Spider-Man grew up in from his peers Tobey & Andrew who are Spider-Men from universes where they had no superhero peers or community.
The way I saw it was as the other spidermen saving MCU spiderman from their lowest points. Amazing SM says he regrets not being able to save his love interest from dying after falling from a great height, then saves MCU spiderman's love interest from dying the same way. Raimi SM says he regrets killing the guy who killed his uncle, then stops MCU SM from killing the guy who killed his aunt. Very simple arcs for characters introduced in the third act
But Tobey never killed Uncle Ben’s killer. Tobey can stop Peter from impaling him but show that it’s Tom’s choice truly that stops him not someone else. Tom knows not to kill, Mysterio was going to kill his friends and killed a lot of people but even after his death you can hear the disappointment that it ended that way when MJ asks if he’s dead
@@thomasjohnson1885I think Tom coming so close to killing someone and not even stopping himself put him in the lowest and most broken position a Spider-Man has been in on screen and now having lost it all he has to live his coming days working out of the darkness and rising to heights that even exceed the others. He’s been at absolute rock bottom and now no one is going to help him escape that place anymore. Now he has to make conscious efforts everyday to embody the ideals he believes in but also learn to cope with the responsibilities that come with his power. He lost everyone and almost lost himself if it wasn’t for a better variant of him stepping in. Now he has to work to be the best version of himself
@@thomasjohnson1885 I disagree. In Spiderman 1 Toby was there to kill the murderer. He didnt track the criminal, he followed the police. He didnt have to do anything and police would have got him and arrest him.
Tom’s Peter leads with compassion in “No Way Home”. Strange wants to simply return the villains to their inevitable deaths, but Peter says, “No. Let’s save them.” That, I think, is what Toby’s Peter is reacting to when he stops Tom’s Peter from killing (or even simply trying to kill) Osborn. The other two Peters became better people for having experienced that anger, but Tom’s Peter was already better. His rage at Norman is understandable. If he hadn’t tried saving the villains, May would still be alive. By stopping Tom’s Peter, Toby’s Peter is saying, “You had it right the first time, and May knew it. Don’t throw it away.”
This is such an important piece of missing context here. Even if you assume that MCU Ben died in a similar way as his predecessors and that's how Tom Peter learned his current philosophy, the death of May is so much more than that. She dies *because* of his mercy, *because* he tried to follow the idea of heroism that he had learned over the course of the previous MCU films and in his unseen origins. This Osborn is the Joker to Peter's no-killing policy. If it's your fault when bad things happen because of your inaction, then isn't it also your fault when you let someone live and carry on killing? It's the antithesis to Ben's death, and it gives us a direct contradiction to every lesson he's learned so far. In that sense, the fact that we're mining old experiences is a good thing. We were all there when all of these Spider-men learned each of these lessons in the past. We know how crucial this line is to the core of the character and how this contradiction would affect him. The other issue is that Tobey Peter doesn't really make the choice for him, or take the choice away. He could have knocked our Spidey out, or sent Goblin away to get magicked home or whatever, but he just gets in the way long enough to reason with Tom. The way he stops him is basically through passive resistance. No aggression, no violence. He just gets in the way so he can talk him down. Ultimately, the choice is made by Tom Peter. All that said, I do agree with the idea that this shoehorned nostalgia made the movie a bit tonally inconsistent... but it's a Marvel movie; corporate influences have been undercutting the writing from day one, and I still think No Way Home turned out great in spite of that.
Yeah, there's a strange amount of subtext glossed over in this analysis. Calling it a needless redo of the origin story is neglecting that he's grappling with a new dilemma, in addition to what you mentioned: do bad people deserve rehabilitation? He already decided a knowing-but-indirect death was too inhumane when he chose to keep them in his universe, but then with the help of May's encouragement he consciously decides to help them become cured or better people in earnest. Green Goblin is thematically May's opposite, goading him that his power should give him ultimate authority, similar to what he originally preached to Toby's Spider-Man; so when he kills May he's implicitly trying to force a choice on Peter: "I'm going to keep doing this if you don't stop me, and there's only one way to stop me." He's trying to convince Peter there's a flaw in his philosophy and the only way to resolve it is by becoming a murderer. His character arc is to reject that lack of choice Green Goblin imposed on him, and using Tobey Spider-Man to drive that home was arguably a good decision because he has experience with this person forcing unfair choices on him and acting morally righteous for it. His gesture is saying "Don't listen to him. He's a liar, and he doesn't understand what you're capable of," something which we know he can back up. All that being said, I don't really read the moment of Tobey Peter intervening to be one of taking the choice away from Tom Peter, but rather the point at which the choice is made. The moment he has to decide once and for all who he believes in more, May or the Green Goblin.
A lot of this thematic stuff is pretty directly signposted in the text, such as Goblin's repeated attempts to corrupt Peter's ideology, so it's strange to read the Almost Killing Goblin plot beat as something that comes out of nowhere and only exists to check the boxes of a Spider-Man origin story. Forgive me for being a bit speculative, but this feels a lot like Pillar spent a long time thinking about the corporate elements of the film and was already convinced of their overwhelming intrusion on the priorities of the project before re-watching it. If he didn't mentally skip over these plot details, I don't know why he wouldn't be arguing instead that the Green Goblin's plan to drive Peter to evil was poorly-executed.
I think it's okay if Peter has two "Real Spiderman Origins" since even in real life, we all sometimes have to learn the same lesson multiple times before they stick. They took some liberties with this story, but it doesn't feel so far off from what we expect from what a Peter Parker can or would do if he was faced with the death of Aunt May from a villian that he arguably let loose. Yea, Peter 2 helped him make the right choice, but Peter 1 ultimately was the one that gave Norman the cure rather than killing him, so it worked for me at least.
Worked for me as well. He tried to help everyone. A very Peter move, and Norman betrayed him. His aunt gave him the iconic speech but he still needed a pep talk from the other peters to continue to try and save them and then when confronted with the person that killed his aunt he lost it, because it was still so fresh. He was about to go against his own ideals kill a person but he was stopped by someone else. Basically meaning this Peter has to climb out of an even darker place then the others having lost everything and everyone. Now he has to build himself new hopefully coming from the lowest point we’ve seen a Spider-Man fall and rising to hopefully be the quintessential live action Spider-Man after his new trilogy.
For me, it’s just nice to see a reviewer who isn’t scouring this movie and every other for a moment in which a woman is portrayed as strong or intelligent in order to complain that it’s “woke.”
To be fair, Tobey did commit manslaughter against and then did not act to save the man whom he believed killed his Uncle in Spider-Man, and then intentionally tried to kill and then truly believed he had killed Flint Marco in SM3 after he found out hes the one who killed Ben - I think that was the parallel, not necessarily Tobey not killing Norman in SM1
@@prolastmedia6171 Yeah, but Tobey takes responsibility for it, he says it was him, not the symbiote fault. it's like if someone is using drugs, and do something bad, they can't blame the drugs, they choosed to take it, and they were somewhat concious using it.
Personally I don't the see the film as Peter becoming officially the Spider Man but rather having a soft reboot, very close to what happened in the transition from Ditko run to Romita run, when Peter went from high school to colleage and his supporting cast (aunt may, betty brant, ned leeds) slowly start to be push aside and replace by more iconic ones like Gwen, Mary Jane and Harry Osborn and his story went from a teenage comedic soap opera to more dramatic stories . The Home trilogy was for MCU Spider Man what Ditko run was for him in the comics, his "teenage years", and the films post- NWH will probably be his "Romita run", showing Peter more mature and with new supporting cast.
@@alexbenitez7399 Yeah, which also makes theorize that, while this first trilogy was more in line with Ditko Spider Man run, the next one will be more close to Romita Spider Man as well some modern version we got like the PS4 one, with Perter more mature, older, living by himself and developing new friendships.
my only real gripe with NWH is that it discards the fallout from Mysterio as fast as it possibly can to move onto multiverse stuff. FFH felt like an organic sequel to Homecoming and IW/Endgame. NWH started off right when FFH ended but yet could not care less about focusing on the ramifications of Peter's identity being exposed.
Everything that happened in this movie is a ramification of Peter’s identity being revealed. It’s what stopped Peter, Ned and MJ from getting accepted into college, which is a big plot point in the first act and is what led Peter to ask Doctor Strange for help, which ended up bringing the villains to their universe. I agree that they could have focused more on some of the other ramifications rather than a quick news montage in the beginning. But I wouldn’t say they were completely ignored, Peter having to wear his suit inside out, living in happy’s apartment, being stalked by JJJ’s crew and that global mind-wipe spell at the end are all results of Peter’s identity being exposed.
@@michaelklock422 it doesn’t make it any less impactful to the overall plot, and I wouldn’t say they were “wrapped up” but rather put to the side to focus on the actual plot. The first 25 minutes introduced us to the ramifications, the rest of the movie builds upon the ramifications. That’s how storytelling works, it’s constantly moving forward, it’s all a domino affect that started from Mysterio exposing Peter. 25 minutes was more than enough time to show us the ramifications and help us understand Peter’s motivation, now we move on to Peter trying to fix it and the consequences of him doing that. You see it as a forgotten subplot, I see it as the first domino, the foundation that drives the story.
@@Sam-3D that's the beauty of having your own opinion. I don't see it that way at all. I see it as the original plot w/ kraven leaned into the identity crisis entirely, and once the multiverse was put on the table marvel had to scramble to tie up that cliffhanger as fast as possible.
It makes more sense if you view the spidermans (spidermen?) as one person. Different expressions of the same character in different universes. What would internal conflict look like if one persons character was represented as physically different people? Probably a lot like what we saw on screen with green goblin. Toby was not stopping Tom from killing GG. Spiderman was stopping himself from killing GG.
As to the question of was SpiderTom Spiderman before the Aunticide... I think you are missing the tragedy of the character. Its not so much, "how do we tell an old story for new money", as it is an artistic expression that this character cannot escape tragedy. I even see spiderman's ethos more as a curse than an ideal. It's an aspiration no-one can reasonably live up to, which makes his commitment heroic, but also... tragic. I think the sentiment of the Eisner memo is relevant here. Making money and making art are not inherently at odds. No Way home was so clearly a labour of love that it feels like unfair framing to look say that the story and character suffers because of the reliance on nostalgia. Yes, nostalgia can and is weaponized to extract dollars from the masses. But your take is not how I read the movie at all.
Best movie theater experience I’ve ever had. I tried watching it at home and it was awkward and weird. Not bashing the film but i never need to see this movie again unless it’s in a theater.
I watched this movie twice in theatres within a week and I loved it both times but the first time is something I can never forget. This movie was very much like Endgame. We’ve invested so much time into these stories that an epic crossover like that can’t be experienced the same again once you’ve seen it and know what’s coming, but subsequent watches are just to remind you of how you felt that first time. I know if I lost my memories of this movie I would go crazy all over again if I watched it. It was intended to have its highest impact on first watch and I think it achieved that. It used my nostalgia as part of its formula in ways that failed in other franchises and even failed in Doctor Strange.
@@MazeDaGr8 seems more like it's tailor made to be seen with an audience of fans who will reinforce each other's emotional reactions. I say that is evidence this movie is poor and cannot stand as it's own thing. you ever see con artist faith healers in mega-churches? or have you gone to a "hypnotism" show? they both rely on crowds of people present to reinforce individuals to just go along with the conceit that there's a healing going on or these dozen people on stage are really hypnotized.
Maybe that's why I didn't enjoy it. Theatres in my country were still closed by the time it played in theatres. But also, I just don't think I enjoyed it that much. I agree with Pillar of Garbage It lacked focus.
Having it be Tobey’s heroism that “resolves” Tom’s arc as a character never felt out of place or odd to me, because it can’t be understated or ignored that they’re *the same person.* To me, that’s the whole point of bringing Tobey and Andrew into the story- Tom’s Peter sees himself reflected in them, and you can see him internalize the man he could be, SHOULD be, as he’s looking at Tobey on the other end of that glider. I don’t think it’s “just” Tobey’s moment, I think it’s a Tobey moment that’s ultimately in support of Tom.
I don’t hate this idea but it doesn’t work for me. Maybe they’re the ‘same person’ on some ontological level, but their personalities, lives, even their physicalities are so different that I can’t really see them as *the same person* truly. Maybe that’s an opinion coloured by the wider treatment of MCU variants, though.
@@PillarofGarbage I feel like I have the same thing, but in opposite- namely, the MCU’s wider treatment of variants bolsters my reading of the scene because every story that’s featured variants interacting has been about that fundamental sameness. Loki and Sylvie, for instance, are just as different as Tom and Tobey, if not much moreso, but underneath all that variance, the show makes the clear point that something about the two is fundamentally “same”, that truths about one inform truths about the other, and I think that holds true of any Phase 4 story where two variants interact.
cj the x's NWH video essay talking about MCU peter pre-NWH being about him learning his "great power" part of the "great power great responsibility" really has stuck with me thinking about this movie. MCU peter was originally created with the knowledge that there's been spider-man origin after spider-man origin and trying to do something different. and NWH is them trying to walk back on that decision. it's a little bit of a "the last jedi vs the rise of skywalker" situation, in all honesty. it got a little too aware of the flak it got from fans and then proceeded to create a narrative that somewhat tramples on what came before.
I was agreeing with you at first because by that logic, NWH would be him learning the reality of the “great responsibility” part. Holland Peter in MCU so far goes from a jolly, energetic kid abstractly spouting his mission statement when he first meets Tony (but not quite really understanding the weight he will have to carry because he had not yet been tested) to a more somber man with regrets just trying to make the best of his current situation. It’s so nicely summarised in the subplot of him being caught up in the gang all getting into MIT at the beginning yet ending with him studying to get his GED. FFH Peter would not have chosen that.
@@firefly4029 i get your point but IMO part of the appeal of earlier-MCU peter was the knowledge that he already saw ben die and has his basic drive to be a hero already. he is a kid but still has his drive to sacrifice himself again and again for the greater good, stated in CACW seen in homecoming and infinity war. FFH and NWH both walk back on this, but i think it was unintentional in FFH and intentional in NWH as a "cleaning-up" narrative. all in all i get that when looking at the bigger picture NWH manages to tie up some glaring narrative loose ends, but the establishing parts of his character that set him apart from other iterations (that i was originally drawn towards) got lost in the process. all the more power to you if the new narrative NWH presents appeals to you, though
@@bluevortexpng1211 okay now you explained more, I can agree with you that it was very revisionist. I thought NWH was an ok film (FFH did not interest me), but it still had value and took care to craft a plausible arc, unlike some of the later phase 4 instalments. I feel like some of these more recent reviews are a bit too unkind to it in retrospect due to the MCU sort of imploding. I’m finally interested to see what new adventures await him, now he’s fully separated from Tony Stark. Happy holidays, and thanks for the polite banter!
I'm not that much into the Raimi movies but I would say the Tobey moment was satisfying on it's own. Sometimes we make bad choices and need help of our close ones and that's ok. It subverses the traditional heroes journey satisfyingly, if Tom just made the choice to drop that glider it would have been a classic moment of heroism but one that we've seen number of times and I glad this was kinda fresh take on it.
I know it doesn’t sound like it, but I really do like this film too! Parts have just always felt a bit odd to me, though, and this video is me figuring out why that is.
Tom's Spider-Man has always been Spider-Man since frame one. Peter has been coping with Ben's death since Civil War, and has tried to shape himself in accordance with other heroes would do, always ending his stories on his own terms. His choice to save Vulture, his choice to trust his own gifts and skills against Mysterio, and his choice to make the universe forget who he is are all built up throughout his story. His stories may be messy, but the choices he makes have consequences leading from one appearance to the next.
If you look at Amazing Fantasy 15, Uncle Ben never said the “Great power, great responsibility line”. Instead it was said in a text box by the narrator, Stan. So, here in NWH, I feel that the director was going this approach, and that’s why MCU Peter asked, because Uncle Ben didn’t say it in his universe.
Except ben doesn’t exist in the MCU. And no, one brief case with a pairing of three letters doesn’t confirm anything. Unless it is verbally or explicitly shown through context clues that Ben died then he didn’t die. You can’t use your knowledge of the character from outside sources to justify stuff within an adaptation for film. The scene in Homecoming where he says “after everything May’s been through” doesn’t count either since it’s so ambiguous it could mean anything. Maybe they got divorced, maybe he just left her, maybe he did die but he was killed at war, maybe she believes he was abducted by aliens, maybe her father died, maybe she lost her job, maybe her previous home had just burned down, maybe she had a miscarriage from a donor, you see what I mean?
@@wesstewart2677 "Except ben doesn't exist in the MCU" Yes he does dude, when Peter says "with everything that May's been through", he is CLEARLY mentioning Uncle Ben, and the sad music that plays is quite the indicator of that, and the briefcase IS Ben's, and not to mention, What If..? Confrims he exists
I think the point is that they can always fall to the dark side (Andrew's after Gwens death) or regret the death of their enemies forever (Tobey's) - and in that moment Tobey is protecting him from going through that. They state earlier in the film how they know how that can go, and they dont want that for Tom's. I dont think that sparing the Goblin is the rite of passage to become Spiderman, Toms already had his origin, and his sparing villains point in previous movies. I think its a much more intimate moment of former spidermen protecting the newer one from their path, precisely because he already is a full Spiderman and that is recognized.
It's simple. Holland is a kid, his aunt is murdered and he makes a bad decision . Toby reminds him of who he is and he grows up. Having a friend or mentor show you the way is not weird.
The essayist Keane the Bean made a great video on why Andrew Garfield’s Spider-Man feels so out of place in no way home, called Grief Catharsis and Spider-Man. It’s basically about how Andrew’s spidey is a genre-deconstruction of the exact movie no way home is.
I like the train of thought in this video, but I don't agree with the conclusion. No Way Home was absolutely nostalgia driven, but it also tied things up narratively across multiple iterations in the franchise and makes it so that they are all the "real" spiderman film. This film isn't Spiderman's origin, the entire trilogy is his origin story where each time he has to learn a greater lesson on his road to becoming the hero he wants to be. Holland's Peter hasn't faced complete loss on screen (we don't know the uncle ben part of this story) and he has a very real reaction to it. It's easy to have ideals when they're not deeply challenged. Losing the most important person in your life can drive you to do terrible things, but unlike the real world another version of himself was there to put the brakes on. Tobey's Peter didn't stop Tom from killing the goblin, he forced him to pause to think about it long enough to get control over his emotions. If the agency was merely Tobey's, as soon as he gets stabbed and is incapacitated Tom could have carried on. Everyone I knew praised Homecoming because they didn't do an uncle ben origin story (including me) because except for maybe Batman's origin, Spiderman's origin has to be one of the most well known origins out there. What I thought was clever is that instead of give us a montage with some voiceover, or wasting half the run time to try and flesh out the origin at the expense of a satisfying third act conclusion, they gave us the longest origin story possible. This gave weight to peter actually learning the lessons from the big teaching moments across his three films and to a lesser extent those he had cameos in. I think this moment can be viewed in many ways so I wouldn't say that my or your interpretations are the "correct" one, it's just a piece of media that can be read in a lot of ways. Interesting video as usual, I always come away from your videos thinking about things differently.
I think i am one of the only few who would say that Spiderman Homecoming is the best one in the Home trilogy... The entire movie is about peter a 15 year old kid, growing to learn that sometimes in life there would be no one there to help(rubble scene is culmination of this theme) all you have is yourself to pick you up..Chills!!
I don’t think this is an origin story as much as it as like a “re-origin” story. After Peter has lost Aunt May and his efforts to rehabilitate and be a hero have failed he is broken. He is no longer Spider Man. In this movie Spider Man is psychologically killed and rises again
sidenote but it doesn't sit right with me that the MCU spends three movies showing that even with everything negative that comes with dating spider-man MJ is a happier and more confident person because of having Peter in her life and then Peter ripping that away from her is framed as something that helps her in any way, this very same movie shows time and time again that even with the threats to her life she believes she's better off being with Peter, it's a great moment of character growth for Peter to show that he in the belated origin story now understands the weight of his secret identity but it comes at the direct expense of MJ's and that's just kind of annoying
I get when people make statements like that, but inherently giving agency to one character is going to result in removing agency from another. The fact that more emphasis is put on Peter losing MJ when they only got romantically involved like a month or two ago even if you super inflate the time skip between No Way Home and it's after credits scene, compared to his Best Friend he's known for years is what throws me off. It relies on the out of universe fact that from an audience point of view, they've been together for multiple years, but that's just not the case In Universe. She was even the first one he thought of when it came to who should remember his secret identity. And I feel like it's much harder to justify the whole thing of "I know it's dangerous to be involved with you but I'm ok with it" after the events of this movie but especially Amazing Spiderman 2 where Gwen dies for no real reason after saying something along the likes of it. I always hated that line of thinking, it's supposed to give Agency and Choice to the significant other, by directing that the other's choice to not get romantically involved is selfish, seemingly completely unaware of how much more selfish and choice removing it itself is. One side is giving up what they want, and the other is just getting what they want, at their expense of their safety and the constant worry from the other about said safety. It doesn't make any sense.
Thank you! This movie felt so off to me. It's clearly better than the worst Spider-Man movies, but I don't really see it as particularly good either, just like this awkward middle ground. Agree with all your gripes here (and I hadn't even considered how Tobey "steals" Tom's agency, but yeah that's a valid point). I'm grateful we're at a point where we can criticize it now. I remember when this came out, the whole fan community was treating it like this ultimate cure for toxicity because all the different branches of fandom obviously loved it and could unite around this film, and I felt so isolated and removed from the fandom. (Spider-Man has always been my #1 fandom.) It kinda sucked...
This is pretty similar to how I felt about it. I liked it and I'll defend some of it's choices, but I watched it as a tie-in movie, not as an origin story. When Aunt May died and said "With great power comes great responsibility" I accidentally laughed because I just couldn't believe it. I was always under the assumption that the moment had already happened, not that it was Aunt May was the one saying it. That whole moment fell flat for me. The biggest issue for me is that they played it as an origin story when it shouldn't have been. Removing the origin story aspect of the movie and letting it be a tie-in movie, I don't think reduces the power of the Tom + Toby scene. I think Toby stopping him in a crucial moment is fine, but the way the movie just kind of throws it away afterwards really seemed off.
I don’t see it as Tobey making Tom’s choice for him. Tom still CHOSE to put the glider down, tobey just stalled him long enough to cool his head down and actually make a choice instead of just acting on pure emotion and instinct
Actually, I have to hard disagree on one part. Even from his very first film, I never had the idea that Spider-Man had his Uncle Ben moment. His personality just didn't really fit that idea. Heck, even his Civil War appearance didn't really give you a feeling that he had it already, just that he got some wise words from his uncle. Remember, Spider-Man was still a new hero, only being active for, what, six months? Sure he missed his uncle, but so did that Rainbow Road guy. From the very beginning, I never had the feeling this was a Peter that was remorseful about the death of his uncle. The simple explanation for this? Uncle Ben just, well, died. Shot dead by a robber. Peter couldn't do anything because he wasn't anywhere near uncle Ben when he got shot down. He probably never even seen the killer. It explains why Peter was such a free spirited person, too free spirited. He wasn't aiming to become a better hero, his goal was to become an Avenger, until the end of Homecoming. In fact, his obsession with becoming an Avenger didn't fully disappear. Becoming a famous hero was his ultimate goal, to be recognized as one. Once he finally got there... Tony Stark died. The following arc, Far From Home, was about Peter trying to live up to a legacy he thought he should live up to, but it wasn't until No Way Home when everything began crumbling down that he had to become the Peter we're used to, the Peter who has a baggage. When aunt May died, that's the moment he truly understood what great powers, great responsibilities meant. This was the first time Peter's own actions killed one of his own loved ones, and at that point, Peter's whole demeanor changed, becoming slightly closer to that of the Peter we know. So to keep it short, uncle Ben's death was not his uncle Ben moment, it was aunt May's.
Oh, and while I am here, Aunt Mays death wasn't a redo of Uncle Ben's death. It was a mirror image of it. Uncle Ben's death causes Spiderman to become Spiderman. Aunt May's death causes him to reconsider what made him Spiderman because it was being Spiderman that led to her death. Uncle Ben died because Peter didn't do the right thing, Aunt May died because he did.
I like No Way Home and the choice to have Tom's Peter not stop himself. What happens if a villain pushes him to that point again and no one is there to stop him? I think that's far more interesting than him having made the choice. It leaves him with so much growing to do and a darkness that he's not sure how to handle. Previous versions don't matter. Nostalgia doesn't matter. This is new territory for him.
When I first watched the film I absolutely loved it, I thought it was one of the best MCU's movies. Why? Because the nostalgia got me. But after watching it at home I thought it was super weird, the first act went so quick. I mean, this whole movie could've been The People vs Spider-Man. Peter trying to prove that he's not Spider-Man in court and trying to redeem his reputation. You could've brought back Shocker or Scorpion from Homecoming. Maybe Peter has a conversation with Vulture in prison after his identity is revealed. I don't know but to me this movie should of happened way later. A multiverse story should've been one of Holland's last. At least that's my opinion. I still don't hate the movie but it's definitely soured on me over time.
imo the thing with nostalgia based movies like this is that it captures the audience's attention for the first time with all these flashy cameos, even if other parts don't really measure up. and when you think about it later down the line and remember all the weird stuff that happens it sours the experience
@@alexbenitez7399 Yeah a story you could have told without it and it would have been more contained, more emotional and actually was a sequel to the mcu home films not an adjacent one
You articulate really well a lot of feelings I got from this movie. I didn't hate it but a lot of the moments people praised it for felt off for me. The nostalgia felt like it really offset this version of Peter's story and it being a pseudo-origin really throws his previous appearances into a weird place.
“Level 3” Section is top-tier analysis. I love your inclusion of anthropological theory into your interpretation of this film, but most importantly, this type of film. It gave me a lot of additional material to research and read.
That's a great analysis of The Force Awakens, that it's not so much a movie as it is weaponized nostalgia. I don't think the same applies to The Last Jedi, which is very definitely a film, and a near-perfect one at that (if you ignore all its flaws). As for the third movie in the sequel trilogy, we'll never know I guess, because it never got made.
I think the premise of this video is flawed: that Spider-Man: No Way Home is an origin story because of Aunt May's death and it ends with a scene of him swinging around Manhattan. Just because it's a turning point in his life, that doesn't make it an origin story. And having a major character shift like that doesn't mean that he's not the "real" Spider-Man in the other movies. Also, Tobey definitely wanted to kill the thief in the first Spider-Man. And in NWH, he didn't completely stop Tom from killing the Goblin; he just stopped him long enough Tom to stop himself. He gave him the second chance that he (Tobey) didn't get. I think this is a serious misreading of the movie.
No way home frustrates me if I think too much about it. The only good thing about this movie is the acting and getting to see old characters. That's it. Everything else is a mess. From 'curing' green goblin's mental illness with a serum to peter messing with dr strange's spell.... it's all so stupid! What happens when these cured villains go back to their universes? Do they still die? If they don't die, do those stories not happen? Honestly mcu had a huge budget and good cast and they still managed to ruin spiderman for me. This whole triology is a mess.
I thought the differences in MCU peter's life fully justified his more violent tendancy towards the person who takes his last remaining parental figure. He was brought into super hero-ing by an arms dealer. He started this movie trying to reform the villains, and he's been presented with this one who is hellbent on proving that won't work on him. The MCU at large has *not* had the same hangups about heroes killing villains. All of that made the climax fit entirely for this spiderman. I do agree having toby be so central is annoying nostalgia bait, but for me it's that I'm just not that nostalgic for that version of the character.
I don't think you're out of line here, I had a weird feeling after the movie, too, and for me it was the nostalgia of it all. They want us to think that these are all the same characters from before, that three universes are coming together, but it's more like eight universes coming together given how they don't follow their own rules for who shows up and directly contradict the previous continuities when they reference them. I wasn't even really considering that the big climactic moment being out of character for Peter, I think it actually kind of made sense that his life just continued to get worse and worse to the point that he finally broke and needed that reminder, but it is weird when we add in your perspective. It's a fun movie, but I think I kind of have the most fun before Goblin kills May. I really don't mind seeing everyone come in and play, but seeing Peter navigate life after being ousted and just trying to help these guys felt right because he was saving lives, so maybe I did notice something was wrong later and just couldn't put it to words. I think it also would have helped if Vulture or Mysterio were also in the movie because those are Tom's villains, but they don't have some sort of genetic modification or cybernetic enhancements that can be cured, they were just guys in suits, so it wouldn't really work to just give them a stern talking to for redemption. I'm not even sure if curing the guys we got is really redemption, but at least now they can't be as harmful with their powers. No Way Home's biggest villain isn't even an original villain of Tom's for the MCU, it had to be someone else's nemesis, so that also feels kind of weird. I don't know, the movie is still good and fun, but it's definitely a weird third movie to either end on and/or start anew.
I think you may be not considering other elements (unmentioned) that make this “more fitting than you think,” and also may be strapping yourself too close to the classic origin story, binding unnecessarily. Obviously Disney aimed for a soft reboot here, but that does not necessitate either “this is the TRUE origin story” or “we do it thought the ORIGINAL origin tales.” In some form or another, that already happened as implied off-screen and with Ben’s involvement and death. With May in NWH we’re re-given that “inciting incident” here as trigger, but there are many differences for Tom-Spidey here. For one, I think the proximity from “relative murdered to catching up with the murderer” is much shorter than classic origins. He is cognizant of his friends and other love with him, and in the same danger from this guy; it is not wholly a “personal fight” as it classically is, even if at that specific moment it is just those two standing right there. The audience knows that Tom-Spidey is both younger and has seen tremendously more shit than the other Spideys by nature of being in the MCU. NYC and the Earth imperiled multiple times. Half the universe killed off with a snap. And as dumb as the Blip is, it cost him five years of time itself and huge psychological damage, and he came out from death while losing a father figure he had gained. Ben redoubled by supernatural dangers, and May was _the last_ In this circumstance, as much as it is _also_ in service of the nostalgia play, is it that hard to envision Tom-Spidey could be much further gone at this point in the MCU’s events? And so it involved a self-sacrifice to save…. himself. Toby-Spidey represents “the original” and his truest self. A Tom-Spidey before meeting Tony Stark and getting involved in global events. Enabling a “return to center” for the character, which fits the nature of this soft-reboot AND slides in with the multiverse aspect of it all. Tom-Spidey still makes his choice, and has a different kind of sacrifice and maturing. But in the scene you’re highlighting, Spider-Man also made his choice. Even if, as I suspect, none of this was given the remotest thought in the writing of the script itself, it still feels “acceptable enough” in the context of the MCU incarnation.
THANK YOU! I have gotten so tired of the internet gaslighting me towards believing that No Way Home was the best MCU Spiderman because Peter FINALLY got the proper Spiderman setup at the end of it, while I was critical of this development.
i can definitely see all of your points, however, i am but a mere consoomer. i've never heard anyone bring up some of the points you brought up, it's always good to hear actual fresh takes on movies that are usually drowned out by blind love or by blind hate.
I think your takes are valid, even though i disagree. I personally think that Tom's Spidey attempting to kill Green Goblin is in character, as at the core of Spider-Man, is someone who makes mistakes. This being dramatic version of that but I'm sure you see where I'm coming from.
Great video obviously, really helped me see the movie in a new light, but I two main sticking points. One is that problem with this movie being a second origin story for Spider-man. I can definitely see how this could be a problem, and I personally don't think it there's was anything wrong with how he was before Stark influence and all. However, I really see this second origin as a way for Peter to fully mature and become a more adult Spider-man. Peter always felt like a character who need to relearn his famous moral philosophy every now and then especially in his younger days. I could imagine that in a world full of superheroes where Peter joins them much later in life, Peter wouldn't have the same weight of responsibility as he would have had if he came up alongside them or predated him like in the comics. The home trilogy has Peter deal with eslcatiag stakes with less and less support. If Peter would have failed to stop the vulture, Ironman or any avenger could have stopped him, but the collapse of the multiverse was a more immediate and difficult threat. No Way Home is kinda like the ending of the high school era in comics going to the college era where we see the modern Spider-man we all know just done with nostalgia and bigger stakes. Another thing I though that was weird you said was the second ending where Peter gives up his identity is less important than him killing Green Goblin. I feel like there equally as important. Peter killing the Goblin would be him sacrificing what makes him a hero we know, which would make him a more vengeful and violent hero. Him telling strange to do the spell to fix the multiverse is him literally giving up his own identity and all the relationships he's formed making him completely alone. In both cases Peter is destroying a identity in service of the other. If Peter gets his revenge for his aunt, Spider-man ceases to exist. However, by doing the right thing, the Spider-man thing he must give up everything he loves and himself so Peter Parker must die. I do somewhat agree with you point that the whole attempted murder by Peter is resolved the best. I will say however, in some way having Tobey not saying anything to Tom I kinda enjoy. Tom knows it's wrong, but Tobey who is shown to be older and wiser and has things mostly together, is putting a stop to Peter's vengeance. It's kinda like him giving a hug without giving him one. Maybe it would have helped if Andrew was there to console Peter who confirmed that he stopped pulling his punches. Together it really would have solidified the message of these older Spider-men coming in to stop this younger Spider-man from making the same mistakes they did in hopes of making a Peter who lives a better life then they did. Sorry if I went on for too long, your just one of my yt creators who makes superhero related stuff and I always enjoy engaging with whatever you have to say no matter if I agree with it.
1st off, I really love this movie it's one of the best experiences I've had in the movie theater & after the theater run ended I went back and watch this movie again just to make sure it wasn't just a nostalgia base trip and it wasn't I still like this movie the same way I did the 1st time Anyways, The way I saw this is that I don't think the film is saying that Peter is not Spiderman yet, I think what they were trying to convey is that he's never had that tragic moment from within that would push him & test his values & morals. Like Toby's spider man lost Uncle Ben & Harry while Andrew's Spiderman man lost Uncle Ben & Gwen. And I believe that was what May's death was supposed to be, that moment where he lost someone from within & would really put it to the test and ask the question "are you really a hero or you just another dangerous Vigilantly" I could be wrong but that's the thought I was getting
Especially since MCU Spidey has been protected by Tony Stark (and his money) since the first moment we saw him. His growth has been nurtured in a bubble for this whole time. But eventually, the price of being Spiderman always comes due. Peter Parker doesn't get the luxury of being happy!
You make a compelling argument, as usual. I still (nostalgically, I suppose) love this film and story. I feel the baton needed to be passed, lessons needed to be learned and various web threads needed to be tugged on and ultimately woven into the mythology.
@@PillarofGarbage Truth. Perhaps that's the X factor because I love weird and I love Spider-Man. Anyhoo - thanks for responding; I always look forward to your new videos.
@PillarofGarbage I feel the main weirdness comes from the change in how Sony wants to handle their separate "Spiderverse" and stuff. When they did Homecoming, they were more playing to get money off of Disney's MCU teet. But by the time of FFH, the plan had changed to create a multiverse of Spider-people. So, now they also have to fit Tom into that mold. Abd the main complaint about MCU Spidey, is that he didn't suffer enough! Where was the bomb of "Great Responsibility" gonna drop? This Spidey had been given the gift of Uncle Ben NOT dying because of his inactions. His Ben just died, maybe it was cancer, or it was in the NYC battle in the first Avengers. It doesn't matter, what matters is that it's not his fault. And while this Peter has been TOLD that gift/curse of an idea, he never had to FACE it head on. Because, when he was put into a situation where he would have been more likely to make those decisions, Tony Stark showed up and gave him a golden ticket. This allowed him to have his ideals of using his powers with responsibility but never having to face any of the consequences of those responsibilities. Tony's money even kept him from facing a lot of the repercussions of the Mysterio fiasco. So he has been raised, during his time as Spidey, to think that, he can have his cake and eat it too. And that's why he tries to put so many qualifiers on who can know he's Spiderman. He thinks he can game the system like Tony could. He was due for a rude awakening!
It was hard for me to finish this video, I had to watch thrice to get to the end. I understand your views, but consider this: it’s not an origin story, it’s a reinvention story. Instead of staying the static Peter we already knew, his latest losses have forced him to question everything and his friends (other Peters, Ned, MJ) bring him back from the brink. Without them, he would have crossed that line, that’s the entire point. It’s a painfully human story that many people can relate with. We like to believe our better selves will win out in a crisis, but not always. Raimi Peter reminds him who he is while Amazing Peter saves MJ while he was too consumed by rage to notice he could have lost her. It works on a lot of levels, though it is still a studio cash grab. At any point, if Home Peter took his situation more seriously, he could have handled things better, but he’s still a kid, so he makes bad decisions, and then Aunt May dying is his breaking point where he realised this is not a game or a joke. The final sacrifice of being forgotten by everyone is the consequence he has to suffer for his original selfishness. He wanted to take the easy way out at first, so Aunt May died, and he still had to make the tough decision to grow up and face his issues head on, only now he has a smaller support network due to his choices. He will have to rebuild his friendships or make new ones, but that’s all stuff we learn as adults. Face your issues before they destroy you, and real friends will support you along the way. We are constantly updating ourselves after major events, and this was one such turning point for Home Peter.
Thankyou btw thankyou for finally releasing this video even though I see where your coming from I just want to add my 2 cent in the mcu Spider-Man did have his origin but in nwh aunt may death was similar to a Gwen situation Tom’s peter has lost so much and has hidden this anger which is why he wants to kill green goblin because aunt May was someone that helped him control his anger and yes Tom was stopped by tobey but that’s because it was hinted at when they are in the lab tobey saw what he was gonna do also when tobey stopped him tobey did get stabbed and peter had the chance to kill him again but he didn’t.I think nwh ending was something to show how he deals with aftermath of aunt may death similar to how they did it in the comics but instead with May it was with gwen but again thank you for making this video. I did think your argument made a lot of sense though and sorry I’m not trying to hate on your video at all if that’s what it sounds like you are one of my favorite RUclipsrs truly
Despite a few moments cleary made just for fan-service, I don't think NWH the use of nostalgia bait is manipulative or badly execute in the film, but rather it's use to advance MCU Peter story. The best exemple of this is the way the film Tobey and Andrew. Rather than showing up for just a scene or for final battle, they play role helping Peter in his darkest moment, knowing what he is going through because they went through similar experience. In the final battle, the fact Andrew Tobey Spider Man is able to save MJ and Tobey's Peter prevent MCU Spider from killing Osborn, not only shows both Spider Men redeem themselves from their previous failures, but also work to give MCU Peter the big lesson: To overcome his loss and grief by preventing other from suffering the same fate. Also having both Spider men acting as mentors for Peter does fit with his arc in the trilogy, with Peter learning to overcome his insecurity and embrace his own strenght, belive in himself. First he heard from Tony ("If you're nothing without the suit, you shouldn't have it"), then from Happy (telling that Tony wasn't perfect and Peter doesn't need to be copy of him like other are telling him to be) and finally the Spider Men, representing reflections of himself.
I had a slightly more charitable read of the movie, but your overall point about its function, like with the force awakens, is totally on point. The way I read this particular film though, was that you don’t just get to have “an origin” - you have to keep on recommitting to the same values over and over, and when things get hard you can lose your way and need to be reminded of who you are at your core. It’s ironically paralleled in the journey of Luke Skywalker attempting to murder ben solo because he lost himself for a moment. He at least got to make the choice to stop.
Honest-to-god, these very sound points have actually soured my view of the film. I'm not gonna stop loving it, it's just that 9/10 is now probably like...a 7. I have a couple rationalizations behind that weird scene, but none of them save the film from the very real neocolonial assimilation of mythology that NWH is intrinsically complacent in. The most I can think of narratively, which I realize is against the entire point of this critique, is that this can be addressed in the future films (maybe even during his symbiote arc). Peter realizes that he genuinely came close to murdering someone and violated everything his Aunt and Uncle taught him, especially right after May's death, and the only thing that stopped him was someone else. His chances to improve start now and he finally can stop himself.
I understood your points on what you made. I do disagree on some, but I get it. I understood how you felt and looked at this different angle. Good video
Describing the fight between Toby's Spiderman and the Goblin as a "now mythologised event" is so fitting, I've run into that feeling so many times. I can remember growing up with a lot of sequels and not seeing the actual film they were following till years later... Disney sequels, Star Wars, The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings, reboots of old movies, playing deltarune before undertale, all that stuff. As much as I agree with your takes on why this nostalgia pandering made the film feel super odd, I have to admit visiting the original movie after growing up with mere glimpses of it is pretty exciting as a kid.
So Spider-man screaming "You're the creep who's going to pay! --You KILLED the woman I love -- And for that you're going to DIE" is out of character now? CAUSE the Peter I know can get really mean when you hurt his loved ones and give him no time to cool off. Like that One More Day build up story were he has a topless fight with Kingpin in a prison and schools him so hard. Also didn't Tom's suit have a kill mode that he used on a bunch of aliens. Lastly right after Toby stops Goblin he gets stabbed so Tom did get a second chance at killing Norman but chose not to. Other then that I have no issues. Maybe the argument that can it real be nostalgia when you never stopped liking something but that's a topic for a different time.
You're talking about ASM 122, but that issue ends the same way as Raimi's Spider-Man 1. Peter is enraged but ultimately decides not to kill Goblin, and the latter dies by his own blade.
@@alexbenitez7399 Tom's been stopped forcibly by Toby at this point. This is what breaks him out of his rage. His mind is changed, but he doesn't change it. It doesn't matter what Norman does after this, because he's been stopped and made aware the others are all watching him. Tom acquiesces to Toby's stopping of him. It isn't of his own accord, but that's when he stands down, and makes the decision under duress not to kill the Goblin. I'm not ignoring anything - it's very clear that the film understands Toby to be the one who stopped Tom from killing Norman.
@@PillarofGarbage But the symbolic intention is that Peter is stopping himself from his killing rage, because of the mirroring of the headshots during that scene, he is looking at his own reflection. It's kinda messy, but the intention is clear we're supposed to see these different versions of Spider-Man as different but the same person at this moment, we're meant to assume that MCU Spider-Man would've regretted murdering the Goblin. Also, I think the reading that it is his 1st actual origin story is a bit of a stretch, it's definitely a soft reboot, maybe it's Aunt May's death. But until they clear up MCU's Spidey past with the prequel, I always assumed her death and great responsibility speech was a repeat of this Spidey's Uncle Ben and that's why he went to the deep end because his trauma just doubled and triggered.
Your criticisms are spot on, but you are far kinder to this movie than I would have been. I am, in many ways, the precise target audience for this movie. I have seen every Spider-Man movie in theatres, one of my fondest childhood memories is of my mom unexpectedly pulling me out of my school in the middle of the day to take me to go see Spider-Man (2002). But I hated No Way Home. I didn't, and kind of still don't, understand how people are able to love it. The acting was off, the editing rhythms were off, the script was very, VERY off. The entire movie from beginning to end felt utterly synthetic and insincere, like the Rise of Skywalker of Spider-Man films, but with 10x worse cinematography. It's tribute to the history of the character felt skin deep at best, trading in reminders of previous films' iconic moments without any understanding of what made those moments work or feel earned. I wish I could love it like everyone else seemed to, but I got precisely zero joy or excitement out of this movie. I don't want to take away from what anyone else experienced, but to me it was just so transparently bad that other people's rapturous praise makes me feel like I'm losing my mind.
Excellent points. I think the reason it feels like an origin story is because he's finally become the Spider-Man from the comics; a poor guy, mostly down on his luck, unlucky in love, on his own in NYC, rather than the fancy-gadgeted Avenger he's been so far.
That’s kinda what my problem was with the MCU Spider-Man. It seemed they wanted to skip the origin only they still did it. I would have passed it if they were drawing from the early days of the issues. Regardless, I’m hoping to see more of a grounded romita inspired story from the upcoming trilogy.
I think for me why the final fight scene works for me is when the villains initially appear they don't see Peter a different from their own universe, at least not until they see his face (but he's obviously smaller and sounds different and behaves slightly different from their peters). The other versions of spiderman almost act as potential paths for Tom Holland's future, does he see himself as the hopeful spiderman or the jaded spiderman. They're reflections of his future not necessarily 100 versions of their original selves. I know that's not what is explicitly implied by the movie but that's how I viewed it. So when Toby steps in to stop the fight that was his self conscious stepping, it's why they don't say anything he knows why he shouldn't kill Osborn on his own. The scene I think still works if Tom Holland pulls the glider over his head and they insert a flash back of Aunt May telling him that helping them is his responsibility. I completely understand the issues with movies existing solely on the idea of Nostalgia as their driving feature, but I do genuinely think it's the execution that matters. It's why it works here or Into the Spider verse, where it doesn't work as well in the new Star Wars sequel trilogy. Anyways I'm not trying to say your feelings/impressions towards this movie are wrong, I think videos like this are important to have especially when it comes to these multi national companies making these products like this.
Thank you for articulating so many of the feelings I had after watching this film. As an older fan of the Tobey Maguire Spiderman, I was pleased to see the character again, but I felt the shift in focus to be highly detrimental to a younger Spiderman that I was already struggling to relate to. And the scene where Peter almost kills the Green Goblin had me furious. Spiderman is not a murderer in his heart, and even though he didn't succeed, that's what this film portrays him as.
I defiantly have 𝘧𝘦𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 about this movie but I don't really know what they are or what to say so I suppose... I mostly agree a lot, especially with the thesis at the beginning.
i am gonna say it toby and Andrew while amazing should have been cut early on same with the entire multiverse plotline. this should have been this version of peter facing his green goblin and dealing with the ramifications of the last film. if you want Toby and Andrew back in the webs then give them their own final films heck both already have comics they could draw from to wrap up their arcs. Tobys final film could adapt the amazing renew your vows series and Andrews final film could adapt the end of peters time as the Ultimate spider-man. this half assed, nostalgia bait multiverse nonsense does a disservice to 3 spectacular versions of the wall crawler. if this movie was done right it could have truly been sensational but i guess if we want to see a superior version of it we might just have to do our own multiverse nonsense.
Great analysis. Loved it. The only part I do not agree with is that Peter accidentally messed up the spell Strange was casting. Strange never explained what he was going to do. To me No Way Home started to feel strange right from the moment another Avenger gaslighted Spider Man into feeling responsible for his own impatience.
Your first point doesn’t make sense there’s plenty of times in main continuity in which Spider-Man has tried to straight up murder someone like bro did you not read the death of Gwen Stacy? It was literally the same thing as here as when he tried to kill goblin he never stopped himself like Tobey, Goblin just killed himself by accident.
In Spectacular Spider-Man he’s going to kill green goblin once again when aunt may stops him like no this is not out of character and you are extremely inconsistent with your takes.
ASM #122, Peter Parker, 1 page before Goblin impales himself on his glider: "Good lord, what in the name of heaven am I doing? In another moment I might have *killed* him! I would have become like him! A- a- murderer!"
You are right. Let's get that out of the way. Your analysis is sound and the video is quite entertaining to watch. Mind tingling. But let me express two things: 1. Things get messy when complex stuff such as multiverses (in-fiction) or changes of creators (out-fiction) happen. And it is very difficult to impossible to sort it out in a neat way. The easier method is to restart all of it. You'll have a bit of a mess when you don't do that. I think you can't escape that. 2. Another commenter (David Esch) mentioned this already, but life is not as neat as narrative. We usually have to experience the same lesson bunch of times before we learn it. And it's not even that; people change, environments change, mental status change... There are no "my character won't do that, it's against his alignment" in real life. It is always new situations and new analyses. Well, you might say: "Art imitates life and that is exactly how it is in art." You will be probably right (as you know more than me), but we live our lives continuously. But this was a 2 hr movie, I can't grasp such complex situations; so art (narrative) follows mentally logical paths (which you refer too). Thats why it seems weird, but it is not that unrealistic. imho at least.
The weird thing about "No Way Home" is that, along all the fanservice, it feels like damage control. It's meant to be Tom's Spidey's "true" origin where he becomes who he's SUPPOSED to be (AKA giving the loudest fans what they want. down to the Uncle Ben repeat), and then they try to convince you that this was the plan ALL along. It's so overt about its intention to "fix" Tom's Spidey by making him more like the previous versions, it's distracting at times.
I think a key difference between Tom's Peter and the other Peters is that they didn't have both Uncle Ben AND Aunt May taken from them. They lost one, but still had the other to grieve with and to support them and be supported by. Tom's Peter lost Uncle Ben, and then he lost the only parental figure he had left in Aunt May and was left alone and felt even more responsibility for it because it wasn't just something he let slip that caused Aunt May's death, it was a comparatively very direct consequence of his choices, even if it wasn't really his fault because he was just doing the right thing. The other Peters lost someone, but they didn't lose everyone. Andrew's Peter also says that after he failed to save Gwen he took a dark turn. Tom's Peter was also dealing with the thought of his erasure from the world's and the remaining loved ones' memory, which was even more loss coming his way. The Green Goblin was the target he found on which he thought he was justified to unleash all that pain and frustration, and also we're talking about the Spider-Man who was very irresponsible with Stark tech in FFH and who did end up using insta-kill in Endgame! Sure, it was a kill or be killed situation, but it was already out of character.
Simply put, Tom's spidey did chose to stop once Tobey acted as a wall to hold him back. If Tom wanted to he probably could've persisted at any time, especially after Tobey was attacked and downed by Goblin. The fact he didn't try to do it again shows it was an act fueled by rage, his aunt died after pushing him to help Norman while he was hesitant to after all. He followed her example because he did accept it was the right thing to do. But it lead to a grave loss, and he's still young and human like any of us, Tobey and Andrew have lived longer lives and gone through a lot of bad to come out the other end of it as stronger people. Tom lost Ben yeah, but I got the sense it wasn't as traumatic for him and more for his aunt if anything. So he started centering a lot of his decisions around her and others he cared for as time went on. So having to lose that after doing what you thought was right when before the biggest struggles so far were things that mainly put him at risk directly and only somewhat bled into endangering his friends and loved ones mildly was a lot to take in. Ultimate Spider-Man is a good example of a younger Peter who even despite his lessons learned could still be prone to the kind of reckless decisions a teenager can slip into. I genuinely think after Tom's Peter lost his Aunt May it started to break the resolve that she was always there to nurture. If Tobey didn't step in would Tom have killed Goblin, probably. But honestly I didn't find it unsatisfying that he did regardless because for Peter the ones around him have always been core to how he as a person stayed on a path of responsibility. And if for this Peter alternate more experienced versions of himself slotting into that mentor role when he feels he's lost that entirely is what he needs to keep him on that track then I'm not against simply seeing one take on the character try that idea. If it doesn't satisfy everyone that's to be expected, but to say he needs to follow the same pattern the other Spider-Men have followed when he hasn't had the same experiences and isn't exactly the same person feels odd. I'm interested to see where this take on Spider-Man goes and how he develops from this unique moment in HIS story.
Also, I know I have been watching a lot of Doctor Who recently, because I didn't even realize you had an English accent until the end when you pointed out you were English.
This essay feels like an exercise in over-analysis (as does quite a lot of the content here) while somehow simultaneously only focusing on the surface level
@@PillarofGarbage I'll start by acknowledging that it could very well be the case that I'm just not as critical a thinker and therefore don't (or can't) see it the way you do. It just seems to me that some of the takes here come from a state of seeing what isn't there, if that makes sense. I'll admittedly have to go back and see what exactly I was talking about, as I made the comment during the outro of the video and therefore the contents were still fresh on my mind; but I think that a decent enough example would be on the topic of Peter's willingness to kill Norman in that moment and what it means that he was stopped by Tobey's version. I feel that the significance of the moment Tobey jumps in to stop Tom is just as significant a character moment for Tom as for Tobey, because while he may not have overtly made the choice to stop himself in time, he still made the choice. He could have fought Tobey to get to Goblin, but he didn't because he knew it was wrong; no matter how badly he wanted it. And for Tobey's part, even though he didn't out-and-out murder Carradine, he still takes responsibility for it. The pleading look he gives Tom in that moment, to me, speaks to all of what I laid out just now. I feel your analysis of it all was focused on the surface of what it means at face value, and then over-analyzed (there it is) THAT part; instead of looking at the context of the characters and the more subtle bits of dialogue. Again, it's a very good chance that I'm wrong and that I'm just not as smart as you, which is fair. But personally, that scene was one of my absolute favorites in the entire film and I don't feel as though it was properly represented in this piece. I feel the same about this movie being the climax to the "origin", but I don't feel as strongly about that bit. All that said, I am very much a fan. And I was a tad heated when I originally made the comment, and am currently milking your comment section for an overly-long explanation of my thoughts, so sorry about that. Anyway, cheers! And I look forward to the next one.
Tom is a very different Spider-Man from the others. He's been part of the Avengers. He's been through a nearly world ending event. He's basically fought battles in a war that included fatalities and blames himself for every failure of others getting hurt. He isn't as naive and idealistic as he was after being betrayed by Mysterio and suffering huge losses (Tony and May and being snapped) so he isn't confident in his abilities to keep those he loves safe. It's what motivates him to want to end threats permanently and why he chooses to stay away from Ned and M.J. I'm glad Toby stopped him to remember who he was and why he wanted to be a hero in the first place.
There's another point here you didn't address. The conflict between Peter and Strange in this movie is that Strange just wants these villains to go back to their home dimensions to meet their fates but Peter can't accept them dying and wants to save them, putting himself in massive amounts of danger to do so. He also went to Strange to cast the spell not for his own benefit, but because his friends and family were being dragged down with him. Both more quintessential Spiderman TM choices. But in itself the decision to fix the villains makes no sense, they ignore that half those villains won't actually end up dead and that returning them to the point they were snatched also won't save the ones who die anyway. Octavius for example still needs to sacrifice himself to stop his experiment from blowing up new York for instance. Yeah those last points are a bit of a bit pick (there are no hard and fast rules to multi ersal travel I guess) but the fact Peter starts the film trying to save the bad guys does reinforce the fact that they need to reverse his character journey just so they can get him back to where he was at the start of the film for that big Spiderman origin moment.
There’s one key point that puts Tom-Spidey’s attempt to murder Green Goblin in a somewhat different light: The *canonical* comic Spider-Man-or rather, Peter Parker (because he makes a deliberate point of removing his mask first)-brutally attacked and nearly killed Kingpin for attacking Aunt May. …And his plan was premeditated enough that he went to Riker’s specifically to beat down Kingpin when he was *already in prison.* (It’s in Amazing Spider-Man #542, if you want to check it out.) …And the only thing that stopped Peter is that Aunt May was still in critical condition. …And Peter explicitly warned Kingpin that if Aunt May *did* die… he’d be back to finish the job. (“I said I was going to kill you, and I am. But I didn’t say I was going to do it *today.*”) So there is, at least, a canonical comic basis for Tom-Spidey attempting premeditated murder to get revenge for the *actual* murder of Aunt May. But that being said, I definitely enjoyed the video and appreciated your analysis!
I never saw either spider-man universe before this and just was... confused. I know what happened in the films, but I lack the emotional connections to them a lot of other people have. I have engaged in Spider-Man media during my childhood (Mostly the Cartoons but I did read some Comics) but never the film series. I lacked the Nostalgic Hook that they tried for and I feel it made it so I saw it as... meh if that makes sense?
I think the gravity of Toby preventing him Tom from killing Osborne works because, while he didn’t murder Uncle Ben’s killer, he says in No Way Home that he wanted the man dead and that he got what he wanted. He caused the man’s death and it affected him, so he saved Tom from himself. I also had no trouble buying Tom Hollands willingness to murder Norman Osborne because the guy had just killed Aunt May.
I too didn't feel lke it's best spiderman movie, mainly I didn't get anything different from i have got from other spiderman movies and if the same movie didn't have any nostalgia people may not have liked it. I definitely enjoyed far from home way more than no way home.
Good video PoG However, i think you might be able to look at NWH as essentially The Night Gwen Stacy Died for MCU Peter Which in the comics, did have Peter losing control as well, despite having learned all the lessons that made him Spider-Man. It’s a second defining moment where Peter comes face to face with the darkest parts of himself However, while I believe that justifies a lot of the “this is the moment he becomes Spider-Man” stuff, the specific scene that you have issues with I agree on He should have made the choice to pursue mercy himself Though it is worth noting that considering how he used the cure so soon after, the implication is somewhat that Tobey stepping in gave him the moment to breathe and find perspective that he needed to realize he had let his anger consume him. Technically, Tobey’s Peter didn’t kill the burglar himself, true, but the crook did only fall out the window because Peter was pursuing him so angrily and had him so spooked. Once he fell out the window, Peter was shaken out of his lust for vengeance. This is similar, I feel, in that MCU Peter needed to be shook out of his darker impulses. One thing I will say is that, as great as Andrew was in NWH, I think he was a little flanderized. He became a lot of the comic relief, and particularly with what was established to have happened to him in the aftermath of Gwen’s death I think that did him a disservice.
i don't entirely agree, i suppose i half agree. but i like hearing the alternate perspective. i think that anyone can be led to murder, and that even the best of us, ~Spider-Man~, isn't an exception. do i think Spider-Man doesn't kill? most certainly, it would be completely against his character and the point of him to do so. would it have been satisfying if Peter killed Goblin? i must say yes, because of the horrible immorality of his actions in the movie that have affected both us and the protagonist. but i like that he's stops, and i like that the one who stopped him wasn't himself.. but instead, himself. i agree that the rewalking of what has already happened, albeit, offscreen, is incredibly silly. but i think this scene is is Peter's wakeup call. like, you know when you're told something once, internalise it, but then lose it, and must take it in again? it's compelling stuff. i don't remember which comic, unfortunately, but i love a certain story where it turns out Uncle Ben's killer is afoot, and is doing murderous shit, and Peter instantly falls into the same vengeance that he fell into back then. he thought he was over it, but he wasn't. i think that's pretty heavy and pretty realistic. i don't recall if he stopped himself or another did, but all and all, the general premise itself was enough to hit hard for me. i think that, peter, is human. and being human, he can relapse, fail, make the wrong choice. you know when you're walking forward, ready to make the wrong choice, and you think to yourself, "i hope somebody stops me.", albeit subconsciously? that's the feeling that i love how it was captured here. here, peter was resolved to kill a man, despite already having promised to be a good person to his uncle, and even to his aunt, who was killed again, and said the very same words as his uncle did in her dying breathe. he denied that to himself, "no, no! this keeps happening! i'm losing everyone i love! i need to end it at the source, a killer killed my (surrogate) parents, so they should be killed themselves!" he no doubt thought to himself. (well, that's my interpretation.) filled with utter rage and denying the truth presented before him. i love how human and flawed of a response he has. luckily, he DOES have people to stop him. and, symbolically, it's not just a metaphor for that it's good to rely on others, and a setup for the ending of the movie where everyone loses their memory of him, which will no doubt lead to a negative character arc with Venom in the next film about not needing others, but rather, it's also a metaphor for him stopping HIMSELF. the other peters have been through these feelings while much older than this Peter. this is just a scared, angry, frustrated 15 year old boy. so, to basically be stopped by his 'future' selves, his SELF, and OTHERS at once.. it's a thematic resolution that it's okay to rely on others, and that at the same time, sometimes you'll be all alone, and have to grip yourself and take the right path, no matter how much it disgusts you. that was atleast, my metatextual (would that be the correct term? perhaps not.) reading of the work.
While I don't agree from my POV of the film, I do understand yours. You did a great job of supporting your opinion without bashing. My only nostalgia is remembering my son watching those previous films over and over and over again. I know a distant cooking in the kitchen summary of scenes. He has no interest in the Tom Holland standalone films but I think he would agree with you if he actually watched. Re: The scene - Tom could have still killed Goblin but the look on Tobey's face, as the more experienced and older Spiderman face said it all. Zzon't Zoo It! lol Tom's has a continuous origin story in a universe with other superheroes that are essentially training wheels so it has to be done differently.
2:24 this is a hilarious point to make because MCU Spider-man has already killed before No Way Home. In Infinity War he's the one who devises the plan to throw Ebony Maw into space, even if Iron Man is the one who carried it out, and in Endgame he uses the instakill mode to murder dozens of Thanos' mooks. Just because they're faceless, unimportant alien mooks doesn't make it any less of a murder spree Besides, Peter trying to kill Norman for killing aunt May puts me in mind of Back in Black, when Peter goes to prison, beats the Kingpin half to death for shooting aunt May, then promises when she does die from her wounds, he will come back to finish the job. So yeah, I have no issues believing Peter would try to kill his aunt's murderer, specially when it's been, what, less than 24 hours since she died? Though ultimately, MCU Peter does make the right choice, curing Norman instead of killing him when he gets another chance 5:25 did he though? Did he even exist? I mean, there are no pictures of him in the house anywhere, nobody ever directly mentions him, the closest reference we have of him is the briefcase, and that clows up to hell with nobody remarking on it. I think all the signs point, whether the MCU wanted them or nor, to the MCU being a universe where Ben Parker just didn't exist, which I am more confident of after No Way Home buries May alone, instead of next to a husband's grave. It would explain why Peter has to learn Great Power in movie 1 and Great Responsibility in movie 2, and why he didn't say "oh yeah like uncle Ben used to say" when May tells him GPGR in movie 3 I don't disagree with all the nostalgia stuff, or with Disney's evil intentions, but the way I see it, NWH is MCU going "well, what we've written so far isn't Spider-man, let's change him to bring him in line with the original character" Anyways, happy holidays
Whether Ben existed or not doesn’t matter. Clearly based on his introduction he got the gist of with Greta power comes great responsibility And I can’t believe they truly think they weren’t writing Spider-Man before, because he acts exactly the same as a hero. He sacrifices his personal life to do the right thing. He prefers to save villains lives instead of letting them die. This is a movie where Peter matures, but it definitely ain’t an origin. He definitely isn’t more Spider-Man than before.
I think No Way Home Peter’s revenge is more similar to that of Spider-Man 3’s Peter than anything. In that film, Peter realized that Uncle Ben’s killer was still out there, and, after being influenced by the symbiote, went on a manhunt for the killer. Peter didn’t stop until he believed he had killed the man responsible. I don’t think Peter is acting out of character here, since he is at one of the lowest points in his life, and his negative emotions compounded with the symbiote brought out the darkest side of himself. No Way Home’s Peter goes through a similar relapse in character growth, where he backtracks on his already-established morals under the weight of his new anger and grief. Basically, Tobey’s Peter did the exact same thing.
I just want you to know, I entirely agree. This is my opinion too. I don't hate the movie, in fact I think it's *very* fun with a lot of emotional gut punches, Stella action and beautiful moments. However. While the part 3(6) origin story is weird, I think it shows the jumping-off point as we see Peter get older. He's going to college. High school peter is done and he's lost *everyone* by the end of this movie and is utterly alone. He is now something new to what we saw in Civil War. He's no longer the character people will say "Geez tony, how old is this kid?" he's a man now. And he's probably going to become an elite member of any team they put him in and no longer the character so young the other members question them for it. All that being said! THAT~ could be undone with the very next appearance from him so we'll see.
There is a lot to critique about NWH, but May dying is clearly this Spideys counterpart to the death of Gwen Stacy at the hands of Norman Osborn. That was the final event that ended his origin phase in the comics and it happens here. NWH even has the same killer, but a different victim. Now consider what Spidey stopped Tom. Tobey. The one who had the "goblin murder scene" scene closest to the comics (albeit with Mary Jane as the victim) and stopped the events from unfolding the way we know. That is why Tobey was the one to stop Tom, because he is the one Spidey who did it before.
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Also: starting with this video, I’ll sometimes be posting ‘end notes’ or brief mini-essays expanding a point or idea, on my Patreon page. All tiers of Patron can view these, and here’s the first one - for this video!
www.patreon.com/posts/endnote-weird-of-76120205?Link&
I think the best way to fix this is to start exploring the trauma Peter has experienced over the years, to explore all of the things he went through. There's Uncle Ben's death, which it seems in this universe didn't have the big "power comes responsibility" ending and instead is just sad. His parents death could even be tied into it. Exploring the effects of becoming a hero and not being recognized for it, living with Aunt May who is obviously better now but for a long time... probably wouldn't be. Exploring the effects of the snap and Tony Stark's death and the mantle that he has to take on a much smaller scale than it did in FFH. The individual effect on Peter himself. In NWH those legal proceedings and the constant hate toward him lasted for months. The beginning of the movie is in the middle of the summer and the end is in the fall. now he's cut himself off from everyone and he's almost killed a man. Tom Holland Spider-Man 4 can truly be about a broken Spider-Man in the way Tobey Maguire Spider-Man 3 failed to do. Peter has learned his lesson but... not really. Years of some of the worst possible things happening to him has changed him and they can really explore that. This leads perfectly into the venom storyline where for the next couple appearances he's just going to get worse and worse. If the MCU wants to fix this pretty big screw up they have to work with a darker Spider-Man.
8:42 Because MCU Spider-Man is just like his Superhero Daddy Tony Stark aka Iron Man, in some ways. Who also was forcibly stopped by Steve Rogers aka Captain America from deleting Bucky Barnes aka The Winter Soldier. In Captain America Civil War.
That’s not weird, it’s brilliant. The MCU has not now or ever been Earth 616. The Avengers send their enemies to the grave more than not in the MCU.
Loki received mercy because of his brother Thor. But Iron Man used a nuke against Thanos Armada.
Ultron received no mercy from Vision. Thanos was deleted in cold blood by Thor Odinson. Who previously intended to delete Thanos very slowly and painfully in Avengers Infinity War.
It’s great that in Spider-Man: No Way Home that they show how different of a superhero culture Tom Holland’s Spider-Man grew up in from his peers Tobey & Andrew who are Spider-Men from universes where they had no superhero peers or community.
The way I saw it was as the other spidermen saving MCU spiderman from their lowest points. Amazing SM says he regrets not being able to save his love interest from dying after falling from a great height, then saves MCU spiderman's love interest from dying the same way. Raimi SM says he regrets killing the guy who killed his uncle, then stops MCU SM from killing the guy who killed his aunt. Very simple arcs for characters introduced in the third act
But Tobey never killed Uncle Ben’s killer. Tobey can stop Peter from impaling him but show that it’s Tom’s choice truly that stops him not someone else. Tom knows not to kill, Mysterio was going to kill his friends and killed a lot of people but even after his death you can hear the disappointment that it ended that way when MJ asks if he’s dead
@@thomasjohnson1885I think Tom coming so close to killing someone and not even stopping himself put him in the lowest and most broken position a Spider-Man has been in on screen and now having lost it all he has to live his coming days working out of the darkness and rising to heights that even exceed the others. He’s been at absolute rock bottom and now no one is going to help him escape that place anymore. Now he has to make conscious efforts everyday to embody the ideals he believes in but also learn to cope with the responsibilities that come with his power. He lost everyone and almost lost himself if it wasn’t for a better variant of him stepping in. Now he has to work to be the best version of himself
@@thomasjohnson1885 I disagree. In Spiderman 1 Toby was there to kill the murderer. He didnt track the criminal, he followed the police. He didnt have to do anything and police would have got him and arrest him.
Tom’s Peter leads with compassion in “No Way Home”. Strange wants to simply return the villains to their inevitable deaths, but Peter says, “No. Let’s save them.” That, I think, is what Toby’s Peter is reacting to when he stops Tom’s Peter from killing (or even simply trying to kill) Osborn. The other two Peters became better people for having experienced that anger, but Tom’s Peter was already better. His rage at Norman is understandable. If he hadn’t tried saving the villains, May would still be alive. By stopping Tom’s Peter, Toby’s Peter is saying, “You had it right the first time, and May knew it. Don’t throw it away.”
This is such an important piece of missing context here. Even if you assume that MCU Ben died in a similar way as his predecessors and that's how Tom Peter learned his current philosophy, the death of May is so much more than that. She dies *because* of his mercy, *because* he tried to follow the idea of heroism that he had learned over the course of the previous MCU films and in his unseen origins. This Osborn is the Joker to Peter's no-killing policy. If it's your fault when bad things happen because of your inaction, then isn't it also your fault when you let someone live and carry on killing? It's the antithesis to Ben's death, and it gives us a direct contradiction to every lesson he's learned so far. In that sense, the fact that we're mining old experiences is a good thing. We were all there when all of these Spider-men learned each of these lessons in the past. We know how crucial this line is to the core of the character and how this contradiction would affect him.
The other issue is that Tobey Peter doesn't really make the choice for him, or take the choice away. He could have knocked our Spidey out, or sent Goblin away to get magicked home or whatever, but he just gets in the way long enough to reason with Tom. The way he stops him is basically through passive resistance. No aggression, no violence. He just gets in the way so he can talk him down. Ultimately, the choice is made by Tom Peter.
All that said, I do agree with the idea that this shoehorned nostalgia made the movie a bit tonally inconsistent... but it's a Marvel movie; corporate influences have been undercutting the writing from day one, and I still think No Way Home turned out great in spite of that.
Yeah, there's a strange amount of subtext glossed over in this analysis. Calling it a needless redo of the origin story is neglecting that he's grappling with a new dilemma, in addition to what you mentioned: do bad people deserve rehabilitation? He already decided a knowing-but-indirect death was too inhumane when he chose to keep them in his universe, but then with the help of May's encouragement he consciously decides to help them become cured or better people in earnest. Green Goblin is thematically May's opposite, goading him that his power should give him ultimate authority, similar to what he originally preached to Toby's Spider-Man; so when he kills May he's implicitly trying to force a choice on Peter: "I'm going to keep doing this if you don't stop me, and there's only one way to stop me." He's trying to convince Peter there's a flaw in his philosophy and the only way to resolve it is by becoming a murderer. His character arc is to reject that lack of choice Green Goblin imposed on him, and using Tobey Spider-Man to drive that home was arguably a good decision because he has experience with this person forcing unfair choices on him and acting morally righteous for it. His gesture is saying "Don't listen to him. He's a liar, and he doesn't understand what you're capable of," something which we know he can back up.
All that being said, I don't really read the moment of Tobey Peter intervening to be one of taking the choice away from Tom Peter, but rather the point at which the choice is made. The moment he has to decide once and for all who he believes in more, May or the Green Goblin.
A lot of this thematic stuff is pretty directly signposted in the text, such as Goblin's repeated attempts to corrupt Peter's ideology, so it's strange to read the Almost Killing Goblin plot beat as something that comes out of nowhere and only exists to check the boxes of a Spider-Man origin story.
Forgive me for being a bit speculative, but this feels a lot like Pillar spent a long time thinking about the corporate elements of the film and was already convinced of their overwhelming intrusion on the priorities of the project before re-watching it. If he didn't mentally skip over these plot details, I don't know why he wouldn't be arguing instead that the Green Goblin's plan to drive Peter to evil was poorly-executed.
I think it's okay if Peter has two "Real Spiderman Origins" since even in real life, we all sometimes have to learn the same lesson multiple times before they stick. They took some liberties with this story, but it doesn't feel so far off from what we expect from what a Peter Parker can or would do if he was faced with the death of Aunt May from a villian that he arguably let loose. Yea, Peter 2 helped him make the right choice, but Peter 1 ultimately was the one that gave Norman the cure rather than killing him, so it worked for me at least.
exactly thank you!
Worked for me as well. He tried to help everyone. A very Peter move, and Norman betrayed him. His aunt gave him the iconic speech but he still needed a pep talk from the other peters to continue to try and save them and then when confronted with the person that killed his aunt he lost it, because it was still so fresh. He was about to go against his own ideals kill a person but he was stopped by someone else. Basically meaning this Peter has to climb out of an even darker place then the others having lost everything and everyone. Now he has to build himself new hopefully coming from the lowest point we’ve seen a Spider-Man fall and rising to hopefully be the quintessential live action Spider-Man after his new trilogy.
It's nice to see someone who doesn't just outright HATE or love the movie. Your just stating your opinion, and I like that!
For me, it’s just nice to see a reviewer who isn’t scouring this movie and every other for a moment in which a woman is portrayed as strong or intelligent in order to complain that it’s “woke.”
To be fair, Tobey did commit manslaughter against and then did not act to save the man whom he believed killed his Uncle in Spider-Man, and then intentionally tried to kill and then truly believed he had killed Flint Marco in SM3 after he found out hes the one who killed Ben - I think that was the parallel, not necessarily Tobey not killing Norman in SM1
Granted the Marco scenario happened while he was influenced by the symbiote
Which does make me love the Spectacular Spider Spider Man animated series where Peter does save the killer.
I was looking for this comment.
@@prolastmedia6171 Yeah, but Tobey takes responsibility for it, he says it was him, not the symbiote fault. it's like if someone is using drugs, and do something bad, they can't blame the drugs, they choosed to take it, and they were somewhat concious using it.
Personally I don't the see the film as Peter becoming officially the Spider Man but rather having a soft reboot, very close to what happened in the transition from Ditko run to Romita run, when Peter went from high school to colleage and his supporting cast (aunt may, betty brant, ned leeds) slowly start to be push aside and replace by more iconic ones like Gwen, Mary Jane and Harry Osborn and his story went from a teenage comedic soap opera to more dramatic stories . The Home trilogy was for MCU Spider Man what Ditko run was for him in the comics, his "teenage years", and the films post- NWH will probably be his "Romita run", showing Peter more mature and with new supporting cast.
It literally also ends with him leaving high school so that’s a good idea.
Someone watched Implicitly Pretentious
@@mdtisthebest6249 This and read the comics.
@@alexandrefrauches132 You sir… have my respect
@@alexbenitez7399 Yeah, which also makes theorize that, while this first trilogy was more in line with Ditko Spider Man run, the next one will be more close to Romita Spider Man as well some modern version we got like the PS4 one, with Perter more mature, older, living by himself and developing new friendships.
my only real gripe with NWH is that it discards the fallout from Mysterio as fast as it possibly can to move onto multiverse stuff. FFH felt like an organic sequel to Homecoming and IW/Endgame. NWH started off right when FFH ended but yet could not care less about focusing on the ramifications of Peter's identity being exposed.
Everything that happened in this movie is a ramification of Peter’s identity being revealed. It’s what stopped Peter, Ned and MJ from getting accepted into college, which is a big plot point in the first act and is what led Peter to ask Doctor Strange for help, which ended up bringing the villains to their universe. I agree that they could have focused more on some of the other ramifications rather than a quick news montage in the beginning. But I wouldn’t say they were completely ignored, Peter having to wear his suit inside out, living in happy’s apartment, being stalked by JJJ’s crew and that global mind-wipe spell at the end are all results of Peter’s identity being exposed.
@@Sam-3D watch the movie again, that entire subplot you mentioned is wrapped up and finished by the 25 minute mark.
@@michaelklock422 it doesn’t make it any less impactful to the overall plot, and I wouldn’t say they were “wrapped up” but rather put to the side to focus on the actual plot. The first 25 minutes introduced us to the ramifications, the rest of the movie builds upon the ramifications. That’s how storytelling works, it’s constantly moving forward, it’s all a domino affect that started from Mysterio exposing Peter. 25 minutes was more than enough time to show us the ramifications and help us understand Peter’s motivation, now we move on to Peter trying to fix it and the consequences of him doing that. You see it as a forgotten subplot, I see it as the first domino, the foundation that drives the story.
@@Sam-3D that's the beauty of having your own opinion. I don't see it that way at all. I see it as the original plot w/ kraven leaned into the identity crisis entirely, and once the multiverse was put on the table marvel had to scramble to tie up that cliffhanger as fast as possible.
Fun Fact: Willem Dafoe went to the premiere wearing a green face mask
common Willem Dafoe W
It makes more sense if you view the spidermans (spidermen?) as one person. Different expressions of the same character in different universes. What would internal conflict look like if one persons character was represented as physically different people? Probably a lot like what we saw on screen with green goblin. Toby was not stopping Tom from killing GG. Spiderman was stopping himself from killing GG.
As to the question of was SpiderTom Spiderman before the Aunticide... I think you are missing the tragedy of the character. Its not so much, "how do we tell an old story for new money", as it is an artistic expression that this character cannot escape tragedy. I even see spiderman's ethos more as a curse than an ideal. It's an aspiration no-one can reasonably live up to, which makes his commitment heroic, but also... tragic.
I think the sentiment of the Eisner memo is relevant here. Making money and making art are not inherently at odds. No Way home was so clearly a labour of love that it feels like unfair framing to look say that the story and character suffers because of the reliance on nostalgia.
Yes, nostalgia can and is weaponized to extract dollars from the masses. But your take is not how I read the movie at all.
Best movie theater experience I’ve ever had. I tried watching it at home and it was awkward and weird. Not bashing the film but i never need to see this movie again unless it’s in a theater.
Nothing wrong with that, some movies are just tailor-made for the big screen
@@MazeDaGr8 totally how i feel. And i really like this movie!
I watched this movie twice in theatres within a week and I loved it both times but the first time is something I can never forget.
This movie was very much like Endgame. We’ve invested so much time into these stories that an epic crossover like that can’t be experienced the same again once you’ve seen it and know what’s coming, but subsequent watches are just to remind you of how you felt that first time.
I know if I lost my memories of this movie I would go crazy all over again if I watched it. It was intended to have its highest impact on first watch and I think it achieved that. It used my nostalgia as part of its formula in ways that failed in other franchises and even failed in Doctor Strange.
@@MazeDaGr8 seems more like it's tailor made to be seen with an audience of fans who will reinforce each other's emotional reactions. I say that is evidence this movie is poor and cannot stand as it's own thing.
you ever see con artist faith healers in mega-churches? or have you gone to a "hypnotism" show? they both rely on crowds of people present to reinforce individuals to just go along with the conceit that there's a healing going on or these dozen people on stage are really hypnotized.
Maybe that's why I didn't enjoy it. Theatres in my country were still closed by the time it played in theatres.
But also, I just don't think I enjoyed it that much. I agree with Pillar of Garbage It lacked focus.
Having it be Tobey’s heroism that “resolves” Tom’s arc as a character never felt out of place or odd to me, because it can’t be understated or ignored that they’re *the same person.*
To me, that’s the whole point of bringing Tobey and Andrew into the story- Tom’s Peter sees himself reflected in them, and you can see him internalize the man he could be, SHOULD be, as he’s looking at Tobey on the other end of that glider. I don’t think it’s “just” Tobey’s moment, I think it’s a Tobey moment that’s ultimately in support of Tom.
I don’t hate this idea but it doesn’t work for me. Maybe they’re the ‘same person’ on some ontological level, but their personalities, lives, even their physicalities are so different that I can’t really see them as *the same person* truly. Maybe that’s an opinion coloured by the wider treatment of MCU variants, though.
@@PillarofGarbage I feel like I have the same thing, but in opposite- namely, the MCU’s wider treatment of variants bolsters my reading of the scene because every story that’s featured variants interacting has been about that fundamental sameness.
Loki and Sylvie, for instance, are just as different as Tom and Tobey, if not much moreso, but underneath all that variance, the show makes the clear point that something about the two is fundamentally “same”, that truths about one inform truths about the other, and I think that holds true of any Phase 4 story where two variants interact.
cj the x's NWH video essay talking about MCU peter pre-NWH being about him learning his "great power" part of the "great power great responsibility" really has stuck with me thinking about this movie. MCU peter was originally created with the knowledge that there's been spider-man origin after spider-man origin and trying to do something different. and NWH is them trying to walk back on that decision. it's a little bit of a "the last jedi vs the rise of skywalker" situation, in all honesty. it got a little too aware of the flak it got from fans and then proceeded to create a narrative that somewhat tramples on what came before.
I was agreeing with you at first because by that logic, NWH would be him learning the reality of the “great responsibility” part. Holland Peter in MCU so far goes from a jolly, energetic kid abstractly spouting his mission statement when he first meets Tony (but not quite really understanding the weight he will have to carry because he had not yet been tested) to a more somber man with regrets just trying to make the best of his current situation.
It’s so nicely summarised in the subplot of him being caught up in the gang all getting into MIT at the beginning yet ending with him studying to get his GED. FFH Peter would not have chosen that.
@@firefly4029 i get your point but IMO part of the appeal of earlier-MCU peter was the knowledge that he already saw ben die and has his basic drive to be a hero already. he is a kid but still has his drive to sacrifice himself again and again for the greater good, stated in CACW seen in homecoming and infinity war. FFH and NWH both walk back on this, but i think it was unintentional in FFH and intentional in NWH as a "cleaning-up" narrative. all in all i get that when looking at the bigger picture NWH manages to tie up some glaring narrative loose ends, but the establishing parts of his character that set him apart from other iterations (that i was originally drawn towards) got lost in the process. all the more power to you if the new narrative NWH presents appeals to you, though
@@bluevortexpng1211 okay now you explained more, I can agree with you that it was very revisionist. I thought NWH was an ok film (FFH did not interest me), but it still had value and took care to craft a plausible arc, unlike some of the later phase 4 instalments. I feel like some of these more recent reviews are a bit too unkind to it in retrospect due to the MCU sort of imploding.
I’m finally interested to see what new adventures await him, now he’s fully separated from Tony Stark.
Happy holidays, and thanks for the polite banter!
I'm not that much into the Raimi movies but I would say the Tobey moment was satisfying on it's own. Sometimes we make bad choices and need help of our close ones and that's ok. It subverses the traditional heroes journey satisfyingly, if Tom just made the choice to drop that glider it would have been a classic moment of heroism but one that we've seen number of times and I glad this was kinda fresh take on it.
Very interesting takes. I still really love this movie, but I can't deny that your criticisms and arguments are sound.
I know it doesn’t sound like it, but I really do like this film too! Parts have just always felt a bit odd to me, though, and this video is me figuring out why that is.
Tom's Spider-Man has always been Spider-Man since frame one. Peter has been coping with Ben's death since Civil War, and has tried to shape himself in accordance with other heroes would do, always ending his stories on his own terms. His choice to save Vulture, his choice to trust his own gifts and skills against Mysterio, and his choice to make the universe forget who he is are all built up throughout his story. His stories may be messy, but the choices he makes have consequences leading from one appearance to the next.
except this movie basically retcons ben entirely as when the other 2 reference ben he seems to have never heard of him
If you look at Amazing Fantasy 15, Uncle Ben never said the “Great power, great responsibility line”. Instead it was said in a text box by the narrator, Stan. So, here in NWH, I feel that the director was going this approach, and that’s why MCU Peter asked, because Uncle Ben didn’t say it in his universe.
Except ben doesn’t exist in the MCU. And no, one brief case with a pairing of three letters doesn’t confirm anything. Unless it is verbally or explicitly shown through context clues that Ben died then he didn’t die. You can’t use your knowledge of the character from outside sources to justify stuff within an adaptation for film. The scene in Homecoming where he says “after everything May’s been through” doesn’t count either since it’s so ambiguous it could mean anything. Maybe they got divorced, maybe he just left her, maybe he did die but he was killed at war, maybe she believes he was abducted by aliens, maybe her father died, maybe she lost her job, maybe her previous home had just burned down, maybe she had a miscarriage from a donor, you see what I mean?
@@wesstewart2677 ok but the briefcase is clearly for Ben like how do you not understand a simple Easter egg
@@wesstewart2677 "Except ben doesn't exist in the MCU" Yes he does dude, when Peter says "with everything that May's been through", he is CLEARLY mentioning Uncle Ben, and the sad music that plays is quite the indicator of that, and the briefcase IS Ben's, and not to mention, What If..? Confrims he exists
Your whole argument falls apart when you remember that Tom could have killed Goblin AFTER Goblin stabbed Toby, but instead he hit him with the cure.
I think the point is that they can always fall to the dark side (Andrew's after Gwens death) or regret the death of their enemies forever (Tobey's) - and in that moment Tobey is protecting him from going through that. They state earlier in the film how they know how that can go, and they dont want that for Tom's.
I dont think that sparing the Goblin is the rite of passage to become Spiderman, Toms already had his origin, and his sparing villains point in previous movies. I think its a much more intimate moment of former spidermen protecting the newer one from their path, precisely because he already is a full Spiderman and that is recognized.
It's simple. Holland is a kid, his aunt is murdered and he makes a bad decision . Toby reminds him of who he is and he grows up. Having a friend or mentor show you the way is not weird.
The essayist Keane the Bean made a great video on why Andrew Garfield’s Spider-Man feels so out of place in no way home, called Grief Catharsis and Spider-Man. It’s basically about how Andrew’s spidey is a genre-deconstruction of the exact movie no way home is.
Sounds fascinating, I’ll have to give it a look!
I like the train of thought in this video, but I don't agree with the conclusion. No Way Home was absolutely nostalgia driven, but it also tied things up narratively across multiple iterations in the franchise and makes it so that they are all the "real" spiderman film. This film isn't Spiderman's origin, the entire trilogy is his origin story where each time he has to learn a greater lesson on his road to becoming the hero he wants to be. Holland's Peter hasn't faced complete loss on screen (we don't know the uncle ben part of this story) and he has a very real reaction to it. It's easy to have ideals when they're not deeply challenged. Losing the most important person in your life can drive you to do terrible things, but unlike the real world another version of himself was there to put the brakes on. Tobey's Peter didn't stop Tom from killing the goblin, he forced him to pause to think about it long enough to get control over his emotions. If the agency was merely Tobey's, as soon as he gets stabbed and is incapacitated Tom could have carried on. Everyone I knew praised Homecoming because they didn't do an uncle ben origin story (including me) because except for maybe Batman's origin, Spiderman's origin has to be one of the most well known origins out there. What I thought was clever is that instead of give us a montage with some voiceover, or wasting half the run time to try and flesh out the origin at the expense of a satisfying third act conclusion, they gave us the longest origin story possible. This gave weight to peter actually learning the lessons from the big teaching moments across his three films and to a lesser extent those he had cameos in.
I think this moment can be viewed in many ways so I wouldn't say that my or your interpretations are the "correct" one, it's just a piece of media that can be read in a lot of ways. Interesting video as usual, I always come away from your videos thinking about things differently.
I think i am one of the only few who would say that Spiderman Homecoming is the best one in the Home trilogy... The entire movie is about peter a 15 year old kid, growing to learn that sometimes in life there would be no one there to help(rubble scene is culmination of this theme) all you have is yourself to pick you up..Chills!!
You sir are correct
I don’t think this is an origin story as much as it as like a “re-origin” story. After Peter has lost Aunt May and his efforts to rehabilitate and be a hero have failed he is broken. He is no longer Spider Man. In this movie Spider Man is psychologically killed and rises again
I also thought the excessive acclaim for this movie is due to nostalgia. I preferred FFH as a movie. In fact I preferred Homecoming over NWH too.
sidenote but it doesn't sit right with me that the MCU spends three movies showing that even with everything negative that comes with dating spider-man MJ is a happier and more confident person because of having Peter in her life and then Peter ripping that away from her is framed as something that helps her in any way, this very same movie shows time and time again that even with the threats to her life she believes she's better off being with Peter, it's a great moment of character growth for Peter to show that he in the belated origin story now understands the weight of his secret identity but it comes at the direct expense of MJ's and that's just kind of annoying
I get when people make statements like that, but inherently giving agency to one character is going to result in removing agency from another. The fact that more emphasis is put on Peter losing MJ when they only got romantically involved like a month or two ago even if you super inflate the time skip between No Way Home and it's after credits scene, compared to his Best Friend he's known for years is what throws me off. It relies on the out of universe fact that from an audience point of view, they've been together for multiple years, but that's just not the case In Universe. She was even the first one he thought of when it came to who should remember his secret identity.
And I feel like it's much harder to justify the whole thing of "I know it's dangerous to be involved with you but I'm ok with it" after the events of this movie but especially Amazing Spiderman 2 where Gwen dies for no real reason after saying something along the likes of it. I always hated that line of thinking, it's supposed to give Agency and Choice to the significant other, by directing that the other's choice to not get romantically involved is selfish, seemingly completely unaware of how much more selfish and choice removing it itself is. One side is giving up what they want, and the other is just getting what they want, at their expense of their safety and the constant worry from the other about said safety. It doesn't make any sense.
Thank you! This movie felt so off to me. It's clearly better than the worst Spider-Man movies, but I don't really see it as particularly good either, just like this awkward middle ground. Agree with all your gripes here (and I hadn't even considered how Tobey "steals" Tom's agency, but yeah that's a valid point).
I'm grateful we're at a point where we can criticize it now. I remember when this came out, the whole fan community was treating it like this ultimate cure for toxicity because all the different branches of fandom obviously loved it and could unite around this film, and I felt so isolated and removed from the fandom. (Spider-Man has always been my #1 fandom.) It kinda sucked...
"clearly better" how is that exactly?
This is pretty similar to how I felt about it. I liked it and I'll defend some of it's choices, but I watched it as a tie-in movie, not as an origin story. When Aunt May died and said "With great power comes great responsibility" I accidentally laughed because I just couldn't believe it. I was always under the assumption that the moment had already happened, not that it was Aunt May was the one saying it. That whole moment fell flat for me. The biggest issue for me is that they played it as an origin story when it shouldn't have been. Removing the origin story aspect of the movie and letting it be a tie-in movie, I don't think reduces the power of the Tom + Toby scene. I think Toby stopping him in a crucial moment is fine, but the way the movie just kind of throws it away afterwards really seemed off.
I don’t see it as Tobey making Tom’s choice for him. Tom still CHOSE to put the glider down, tobey just stalled him long enough to cool his head down and actually make a choice instead of just acting on pure emotion and instinct
Actually, I have to hard disagree on one part. Even from his very first film, I never had the idea that Spider-Man had his Uncle Ben moment. His personality just didn't really fit that idea. Heck, even his Civil War appearance didn't really give you a feeling that he had it already, just that he got some wise words from his uncle. Remember, Spider-Man was still a new hero, only being active for, what, six months? Sure he missed his uncle, but so did that Rainbow Road guy.
From the very beginning, I never had the feeling this was a Peter that was remorseful about the death of his uncle. The simple explanation for this? Uncle Ben just, well, died. Shot dead by a robber. Peter couldn't do anything because he wasn't anywhere near uncle Ben when he got shot down. He probably never even seen the killer.
It explains why Peter was such a free spirited person, too free spirited. He wasn't aiming to become a better hero, his goal was to become an Avenger, until the end of Homecoming. In fact, his obsession with becoming an Avenger didn't fully disappear. Becoming a famous hero was his ultimate goal, to be recognized as one. Once he finally got there... Tony Stark died.
The following arc, Far From Home, was about Peter trying to live up to a legacy he thought he should live up to, but it wasn't until No Way Home when everything began crumbling down that he had to become the Peter we're used to, the Peter who has a baggage. When aunt May died, that's the moment he truly understood what great powers, great responsibilities meant. This was the first time Peter's own actions killed one of his own loved ones, and at that point, Peter's whole demeanor changed, becoming slightly closer to that of the Peter we know.
So to keep it short, uncle Ben's death was not his uncle Ben moment, it was aunt May's.
Oh, and while I am here, Aunt Mays death wasn't a redo of Uncle Ben's death. It was a mirror image of it. Uncle Ben's death causes Spiderman to become Spiderman. Aunt May's death causes him to reconsider what made him Spiderman because it was being Spiderman that led to her death. Uncle Ben died because Peter didn't do the right thing, Aunt May died because he did.
I am of the thought that Norman should have died giving us a twisted version of Peter, honestly this was a missed opportunity in NWH
I like No Way Home and the choice to have Tom's Peter not stop himself. What happens if a villain pushes him to that point again and no one is there to stop him? I think that's far more interesting than him having made the choice. It leaves him with so much growing to do and a darkness that he's not sure how to handle. Previous versions don't matter. Nostalgia doesn't matter. This is new territory for him.
When I first watched the film I absolutely loved it, I thought it was one of the best MCU's movies. Why? Because the nostalgia got me.
But after watching it at home I thought it was super weird, the first act went so quick. I mean, this whole movie could've been The People vs Spider-Man. Peter trying to prove that he's not Spider-Man in court and trying to redeem his reputation. You could've brought back Shocker or Scorpion from Homecoming. Maybe Peter has a conversation with Vulture in prison after his identity is revealed.
I don't know but to me this movie should of happened way later. A multiverse story should've been one of Holland's last. At least that's my opinion.
I still don't hate the movie but it's definitely soured on me over time.
imo the thing with nostalgia based movies like this is that it captures the audience's attention for the first time with all these flashy cameos, even if other parts don't really measure up. and when you think about it later down the line and remember all the weird stuff that happens it sours the experience
@@bluevortexpng1211 yeah nah that’s just not true Peter has a clear arc that’s supported by the multiverse stuff
Thing about that is that they may not have had a chance to do a multiverse story later (the movie almost didn't get made). So they made it now
@@alexbenitez7399 Yeah a story you could have told without it and it would have been more contained, more emotional and actually was a sequel to the mcu home films not an adjacent one
You articulate really well a lot of feelings I got from this movie. I didn't hate it but a lot of the moments people praised it for felt off for me. The nostalgia felt like it really offset this version of Peter's story and it being a pseudo-origin really throws his previous appearances into a weird place.
“Level 3” Section is top-tier analysis.
I love your inclusion of anthropological theory into your interpretation of this film, but most importantly, this type of film. It gave me a lot of additional material to research and read.
That's a great analysis of The Force Awakens, that it's not so much a movie as it is weaponized nostalgia. I don't think the same applies to The Last Jedi, which is very definitely a film, and a near-perfect one at that (if you ignore all its flaws). As for the third movie in the sequel trilogy, we'll never know I guess, because it never got made.
I think the premise of this video is flawed: that Spider-Man: No Way Home is an origin story because of Aunt May's death and it ends with a scene of him swinging around Manhattan. Just because it's a turning point in his life, that doesn't make it an origin story. And having a major character shift like that doesn't mean that he's not the "real" Spider-Man in the other movies.
Also, Tobey definitely wanted to kill the thief in the first Spider-Man. And in NWH, he didn't completely stop Tom from killing the Goblin; he just stopped him long enough Tom to stop himself. He gave him the second chance that he (Tobey) didn't get.
I think this is a serious misreading of the movie.
No way home frustrates me if I think too much about it. The only good thing about this movie is the acting and getting to see old characters. That's it.
Everything else is a mess. From 'curing' green goblin's mental illness with a serum to peter messing with dr strange's spell.... it's all so stupid! What happens when these cured villains go back to their universes? Do they still die? If they don't die, do those stories not happen?
Honestly mcu had a huge budget and good cast and they still managed to ruin spiderman for me. This whole triology is a mess.
I thought the differences in MCU peter's life fully justified his more violent tendancy towards the person who takes his last remaining parental figure. He was brought into super hero-ing by an arms dealer. He started this movie trying to reform the villains, and he's been presented with this one who is hellbent on proving that won't work on him. The MCU at large has *not* had the same hangups about heroes killing villains. All of that made the climax fit entirely for this spiderman. I do agree having toby be so central is annoying nostalgia bait, but for me it's that I'm just not that nostalgic for that version of the character.
I don't think you're out of line here, I had a weird feeling after the movie, too, and for me it was the nostalgia of it all. They want us to think that these are all the same characters from before, that three universes are coming together, but it's more like eight universes coming together given how they don't follow their own rules for who shows up and directly contradict the previous continuities when they reference them. I wasn't even really considering that the big climactic moment being out of character for Peter, I think it actually kind of made sense that his life just continued to get worse and worse to the point that he finally broke and needed that reminder, but it is weird when we add in your perspective. It's a fun movie, but I think I kind of have the most fun before Goblin kills May. I really don't mind seeing everyone come in and play, but seeing Peter navigate life after being ousted and just trying to help these guys felt right because he was saving lives, so maybe I did notice something was wrong later and just couldn't put it to words.
I think it also would have helped if Vulture or Mysterio were also in the movie because those are Tom's villains, but they don't have some sort of genetic modification or cybernetic enhancements that can be cured, they were just guys in suits, so it wouldn't really work to just give them a stern talking to for redemption. I'm not even sure if curing the guys we got is really redemption, but at least now they can't be as harmful with their powers. No Way Home's biggest villain isn't even an original villain of Tom's for the MCU, it had to be someone else's nemesis, so that also feels kind of weird. I don't know, the movie is still good and fun, but it's definitely a weird third movie to either end on and/or start anew.
I think you may be not considering other elements (unmentioned) that make this “more fitting than you think,” and also may be strapping yourself too close to the classic origin story, binding unnecessarily.
Obviously Disney aimed for a soft reboot here, but that does not necessitate either “this is the TRUE origin story” or “we do it thought the ORIGINAL origin tales.”
In some form or another, that already happened as implied off-screen and with Ben’s involvement and death. With May in NWH we’re re-given that “inciting incident” here as trigger, but there are many differences for Tom-Spidey here.
For one, I think the proximity from “relative murdered to catching up with the murderer” is much shorter than classic origins. He is cognizant of his friends and other love with him, and in the same danger from this guy; it is not wholly a “personal fight” as it classically is, even if at that specific moment it is just those two standing right there.
The audience knows that Tom-Spidey is both younger and has seen tremendously more shit than the other Spideys by nature of being in the MCU. NYC and the Earth imperiled multiple times. Half the universe killed off with a snap. And as dumb as the Blip is, it cost him five years of time itself and huge psychological damage, and he came out from death while losing a father figure he had gained. Ben redoubled by supernatural dangers, and May was _the last_
In this circumstance, as much as it is _also_ in service of the nostalgia play, is it that hard to envision Tom-Spidey could be much further gone at this point in the MCU’s events?
And so it involved a self-sacrifice to save…. himself. Toby-Spidey represents “the original” and his truest self. A Tom-Spidey before meeting Tony Stark and getting involved in global events. Enabling a “return to center” for the character, which fits the nature of this soft-reboot AND slides in with the multiverse aspect of it all.
Tom-Spidey still makes his choice, and has a different kind of sacrifice and maturing. But in the scene you’re highlighting, Spider-Man also made his choice.
Even if, as I suspect, none of this was given the remotest thought in the writing of the script itself, it still feels “acceptable enough” in the context of the MCU incarnation.
THANK YOU!
I have gotten so tired of the internet gaslighting me towards believing that No Way Home was the best MCU Spiderman because Peter FINALLY got the proper Spiderman setup at the end of it, while I was critical of this development.
THANK YOU. This is exactly what I’ve been saying since before it even came out. It’s like makin hot dogs outta hot dogs.
i can definitely see all of your points, however, i am but a mere consoomer. i've never heard anyone bring up some of the points you brought up, it's always good to hear actual fresh takes on movies that are usually drowned out by blind love or by blind hate.
Honestly, given what ASM Peter says about him going down a dark path, he should’ve been the one to stop MCU Peter in that scene
I think your takes are valid, even though i disagree. I personally think that Tom's Spidey attempting to kill Green Goblin is in character, as at the core of Spider-Man, is someone who makes mistakes. This being dramatic version of that but I'm sure you see where I'm coming from.
Great video obviously, really helped me see the movie in a new light, but I two main sticking points. One is that problem with this movie being a second origin story for Spider-man. I can definitely see how this could be a problem, and I personally don't think it there's was anything wrong with how he was before Stark influence and all. However, I really see this second origin as a way for Peter to fully mature and become a more adult Spider-man. Peter always felt like a character who need to relearn his famous moral philosophy every now and then especially in his younger days. I could imagine that in a world full of superheroes where Peter joins them much later in life, Peter wouldn't have the same weight of responsibility as he would have had if he came up alongside them or predated him like in the comics. The home trilogy has Peter deal with eslcatiag stakes with less and less support. If Peter would have failed to stop the vulture, Ironman or any avenger could have stopped him, but the collapse of the multiverse was a more immediate and difficult threat. No Way Home is kinda like the ending of the high school era in comics going to the college era where we see the modern Spider-man we all know just done with nostalgia and bigger stakes. Another thing I though that was weird you said was the second ending where Peter gives up his identity is less important than him killing Green Goblin. I feel like there equally as important. Peter killing the Goblin would be him sacrificing what makes him a hero we know, which would make him a more vengeful and violent hero. Him telling strange to do the spell to fix the multiverse is him literally giving up his own identity and all the relationships he's formed making him completely alone. In both cases Peter is destroying a identity in service of the other. If Peter gets his revenge for his aunt, Spider-man ceases to exist. However, by doing the right thing, the Spider-man thing he must give up everything he loves and himself so Peter Parker must die. I do somewhat agree with you point that the whole attempted murder by Peter is resolved the best. I will say however, in some way having Tobey not saying anything to Tom I kinda enjoy. Tom knows it's wrong, but Tobey who is shown to be older and wiser and has things mostly together, is putting a stop to Peter's vengeance. It's kinda like him giving a hug without giving him one. Maybe it would have helped if Andrew was there to console Peter who confirmed that he stopped pulling his punches. Together it really would have solidified the message of these older Spider-men coming in to stop this younger Spider-man from making the same mistakes they did in hopes of making a Peter who lives a better life then they did. Sorry if I went on for too long, your just one of my yt creators who makes superhero related stuff and I always enjoy engaging with whatever you have to say no matter if I agree with it.
I'll admit, hearing these points from you in this context is quite interesting! (Also, 1st!)
What an apt name for your channel.
1st off, I really love this movie it's one of the best experiences I've had in the movie theater & after the theater run ended I went back and watch this movie again just to make sure it wasn't just a nostalgia base trip and it wasn't I still like this movie the same way I did the 1st time
Anyways, The way I saw this is that I don't think the film is saying that Peter is not Spiderman yet, I think what they were trying to convey is that he's never had that tragic moment from within that would push him & test his values & morals. Like Toby's spider man lost Uncle Ben & Harry while Andrew's Spiderman man lost Uncle Ben & Gwen.
And I believe that was what May's death was supposed to be, that moment where he lost someone from within & would really put it to the test and ask the question "are you really a hero or you just another dangerous Vigilantly" I could be wrong but that's the thought I was getting
Especially since MCU Spidey has been protected by Tony Stark (and his money) since the first moment we saw him. His growth has been nurtured in a bubble for this whole time. But eventually, the price of being Spiderman always comes due. Peter Parker doesn't get the luxury of being happy!
Seriously, Homecoming already had a great origin. Being able to be Spiderman without the fancy suit is amazing.
You make a compelling argument, as usual. I still (nostalgically, I suppose) love this film and story. I feel the baton needed to be passed, lessons needed to be learned and various web threads needed to be tugged on and ultimately woven into the mythology.
I still like it a lot too! I just think it’s… well, weird!
@@PillarofGarbage Truth. Perhaps that's the X factor because I love weird and I love Spider-Man. Anyhoo - thanks for responding; I always look forward to your new videos.
@PillarofGarbage I feel the main weirdness comes from the change in how Sony wants to handle their separate "Spiderverse" and stuff. When they did Homecoming, they were more playing to get money off of Disney's MCU teet. But by the time of FFH, the plan had changed to create a multiverse of Spider-people. So, now they also have to fit Tom into that mold. Abd the main complaint about MCU Spidey, is that he didn't suffer enough! Where was the bomb of "Great Responsibility" gonna drop? This Spidey had been given the gift of Uncle Ben NOT dying because of his inactions. His Ben just died, maybe it was cancer, or it was in the NYC battle in the first Avengers. It doesn't matter, what matters is that it's not his fault. And while this Peter has been TOLD that gift/curse of an idea, he never had to FACE it head on. Because, when he was put into a situation where he would have been more likely to make those decisions, Tony Stark showed up and gave him a golden ticket. This allowed him to have his ideals of using his powers with responsibility but never having to face any of the consequences of those responsibilities. Tony's money even kept him from facing a lot of the repercussions of the Mysterio fiasco. So he has been raised, during his time as Spidey, to think that, he can have his cake and eat it too. And that's why he tries to put so many qualifiers on who can know he's Spiderman. He thinks he can game the system like Tony could. He was due for a rude awakening!
@@PillarofGarbage It all links back to the last line of the first Raimi Spiderman film: "It is my gift; It is my CURSE. Who am I? I'm Spiderman!"
It was hard for me to finish this video, I had to watch thrice to get to the end. I understand your views, but consider this: it’s not an origin story, it’s a reinvention story. Instead of staying the static Peter we already knew, his latest losses have forced him to question everything and his friends (other Peters, Ned, MJ) bring him back from the brink. Without them, he would have crossed that line, that’s the entire point. It’s a painfully human story that many people can relate with. We like to believe our better selves will win out in a crisis, but not always.
Raimi Peter reminds him who he is while Amazing Peter saves MJ while he was too consumed by rage to notice he could have lost her. It works on a lot of levels, though it is still a studio cash grab.
At any point, if Home Peter took his situation more seriously, he could have handled things better, but he’s still a kid, so he makes bad decisions, and then Aunt May dying is his breaking point where he realised this is not a game or a joke.
The final sacrifice of being forgotten by everyone is the consequence he has to suffer for his original selfishness. He wanted to take the easy way out at first, so Aunt May died, and he still had to make the tough decision to grow up and face his issues head on, only now he has a smaller support network due to his choices.
He will have to rebuild his friendships or make new ones, but that’s all stuff we learn as adults. Face your issues before they destroy you, and real friends will support you along the way. We are constantly updating ourselves after major events, and this was one such turning point for Home Peter.
Oh my god thank you. This is something that has bothered me for a while.
Thankyou btw thankyou for finally releasing this video even though I see where your coming from I just want to add my 2 cent in the mcu Spider-Man did have his origin but in nwh aunt may death was similar to a Gwen situation Tom’s peter has lost so much and has hidden this anger which is why he wants to kill green goblin because aunt May was someone that helped him control his anger and yes Tom was stopped by tobey but that’s because it was hinted at when they are in the lab tobey saw what he was gonna do also when tobey stopped him tobey did get stabbed and peter had the chance to kill him again but he didn’t.I think nwh ending was something to show how he deals with aftermath of aunt may death similar to how they did it in the comics but instead with May it was with gwen but again thank you for making this video. I did think your argument made a lot of sense though and sorry I’m not trying to hate on your video at all if that’s what it sounds like you are one of my favorite RUclipsrs truly
Despite a few moments cleary made just for fan-service, I don't think NWH the use of nostalgia bait is manipulative or badly execute in the film, but rather it's use to advance MCU Peter story. The best exemple of this is the way the film Tobey and Andrew. Rather than showing up for just a scene or for final battle, they play role helping Peter in his darkest moment, knowing what he is going through because they went through similar experience. In the final battle, the fact Andrew Tobey Spider Man is able to save MJ and Tobey's Peter prevent MCU Spider from killing Osborn, not only shows both Spider Men redeem themselves from their previous failures, but also work to give MCU Peter the big lesson: To overcome his loss and grief by preventing other from suffering the same fate.
Also having both Spider men acting as mentors for Peter does fit with his arc in the trilogy, with Peter learning to overcome his insecurity and embrace his own strenght, belive in himself. First he heard from Tony ("If you're nothing without the suit, you shouldn't have it"), then from Happy (telling that Tony wasn't perfect and Peter doesn't need to be copy of him like other are telling him to be) and finally the Spider Men, representing reflections of himself.
I had a slightly more charitable read of the movie, but your overall point about its function, like with the force awakens, is totally on point. The way I read this particular film though, was that you don’t just get to have “an origin” - you have to keep on recommitting to the same values over and over, and when things get hard you can lose your way and need to be reminded of who you are at your core. It’s ironically paralleled in the journey of Luke Skywalker attempting to murder ben solo because he lost himself for a moment. He at least got to make the choice to stop.
Honest-to-god, these very sound points have actually soured my view of the film. I'm not gonna stop loving it, it's just that 9/10 is now probably like...a 7. I have a couple rationalizations behind that weird scene, but none of them save the film from the very real neocolonial assimilation of mythology that NWH is intrinsically complacent in.
The most I can think of narratively, which I realize is against the entire point of this critique, is that this can be addressed in the future films (maybe even during his symbiote arc). Peter realizes that he genuinely came close to murdering someone and violated everything his Aunt and Uncle taught him, especially right after May's death, and the only thing that stopped him was someone else. His chances to improve start now and he finally can stop himself.
I understood your points on what you made. I do disagree on some, but I get it. I understood how you felt and looked at this different angle. Good video
Describing the fight between Toby's Spiderman and the Goblin as a "now mythologised event" is so fitting, I've run into that feeling so many times. I can remember growing up with a lot of sequels and not seeing the actual film they were following till years later... Disney sequels, Star Wars, The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings, reboots of old movies, playing deltarune before undertale, all that stuff. As much as I agree with your takes on why this nostalgia pandering made the film feel super odd, I have to admit visiting the original movie after growing up with mere glimpses of it is pretty exciting as a kid.
So Spider-man screaming "You're the creep who's going to pay! --You KILLED the woman I love -- And for that you're going to DIE" is out of character now? CAUSE the Peter I know can get really mean when you hurt his loved ones and give him no time to cool off. Like that One More Day build up story were he has a topless fight with Kingpin in a prison and schools him so hard. Also didn't Tom's suit have a kill mode that he used on a bunch of aliens. Lastly right after Toby stops Goblin he gets stabbed so Tom did get a second chance at killing Norman but chose not to. Other then that I have no issues. Maybe the argument that can it real be nostalgia when you never stopped liking something but that's a topic for a different time.
You're talking about ASM 122, but that issue ends the same way as Raimi's Spider-Man 1. Peter is enraged but ultimately decides not to kill Goblin, and the latter dies by his own blade.
@@PillarofGarbage and like he said Tom still chose not to kill goblin after
@@alexbenitez7399 Tom's been stopped forcibly by Toby at this point. This is what breaks him out of his rage. His mind is changed, but he doesn't change it. It doesn't matter what Norman does after this, because he's been stopped and made aware the others are all watching him. Tom acquiesces to Toby's stopping of him. It isn't of his own accord, but that's when he stands down, and makes the decision under duress not to kill the Goblin. I'm not ignoring anything - it's very clear that the film understands Toby to be the one who stopped Tom from killing Norman.
@@PillarofGarbage But the symbolic intention is that Peter is stopping himself from his killing rage, because of the mirroring of the headshots during that scene, he is looking at his own reflection. It's kinda messy, but the intention is clear we're supposed to see these different versions of Spider-Man as different but the same person at this moment, we're meant to assume that MCU Spider-Man would've regretted murdering the Goblin. Also, I think the reading that it is his 1st actual origin story is a bit of a stretch, it's definitely a soft reboot, maybe it's Aunt May's death. But until they clear up MCU's Spidey past with the prequel, I always assumed her death and great responsibility speech was a repeat of this Spidey's Uncle Ben and that's why he went to the deep end because his trauma just doubled and triggered.
@@PillarofGarbage the same way Aunt May stopped him before in spectacular spider-man when he was gonna kill goblin?
Your criticisms are spot on, but you are far kinder to this movie than I would have been. I am, in many ways, the precise target audience for this movie. I have seen every Spider-Man movie in theatres, one of my fondest childhood memories is of my mom unexpectedly pulling me out of my school in the middle of the day to take me to go see Spider-Man (2002). But I hated No Way Home. I didn't, and kind of still don't, understand how people are able to love it. The acting was off, the editing rhythms were off, the script was very, VERY off. The entire movie from beginning to end felt utterly synthetic and insincere, like the Rise of Skywalker of Spider-Man films, but with 10x worse cinematography. It's tribute to the history of the character felt skin deep at best, trading in reminders of previous films' iconic moments without any understanding of what made those moments work or feel earned. I wish I could love it like everyone else seemed to, but I got precisely zero joy or excitement out of this movie. I don't want to take away from what anyone else experienced, but to me it was just so transparently bad that other people's rapturous praise makes me feel like I'm losing my mind.
Tobey stops Tom from getting revenge on the “killer of uncle ben” like he did. It makes perfect sense to me
Excellent points. I think the reason it feels like an origin story is because he's finally become the Spider-Man from the comics; a poor guy, mostly down on his luck, unlucky in love, on his own in NYC, rather than the fancy-gadgeted Avenger he's been so far.
That’s kinda what my problem was with the MCU Spider-Man. It seemed they wanted to skip the origin only they still did it. I would have passed it if they were drawing from the early days of the issues. Regardless, I’m hoping to see more of a grounded romita inspired story from the upcoming trilogy.
I think for me why the final fight scene works for me is when the villains initially appear they don't see Peter a different from their own universe, at least not until they see his face (but he's obviously smaller and sounds different and behaves slightly different from their peters). The other versions of spiderman almost act as potential paths for Tom Holland's future, does he see himself as the hopeful spiderman or the jaded spiderman. They're reflections of his future not necessarily 100 versions of their original selves. I know that's not what is explicitly implied by the movie but that's how I viewed it. So when Toby steps in to stop the fight that was his self conscious stepping, it's why they don't say anything he knows why he shouldn't kill Osborn on his own. The scene I think still works if Tom Holland pulls the glider over his head and they insert a flash back of Aunt May telling him that helping them is his responsibility.
I completely understand the issues with movies existing solely on the idea of Nostalgia as their driving feature, but I do genuinely think it's the execution that matters. It's why it works here or Into the Spider verse, where it doesn't work as well in the new Star Wars sequel trilogy.
Anyways I'm not trying to say your feelings/impressions towards this movie are wrong, I think videos like this are important to have especially when it comes to these multi national companies making these products like this.
Thank you for articulating so many of the feelings I had after watching this film. As an older fan of the Tobey Maguire Spiderman, I was pleased to see the character again, but I felt the shift in focus to be highly detrimental to a younger Spiderman that I was already struggling to relate to. And the scene where Peter almost kills the Green Goblin had me furious. Spiderman is not a murderer in his heart, and even though he didn't succeed, that's what this film portrays him as.
As an American and a Texan, that patreon ad was perfect
I defiantly have 𝘧𝘦𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 about this movie but I don't really know what they are or what to say so I suppose...
I mostly agree a lot, especially with the thesis at the beginning.
I love this film so much and I think it done a lot of things right, there was a couple of things I would have changed.
i am gonna say it toby and Andrew while amazing should have been cut early on same with the entire multiverse plotline. this should have been this version of peter facing his green goblin and dealing with the ramifications of the last film. if you want Toby and Andrew back in the webs then give them their own final films heck both already have comics they could draw from to wrap up their arcs. Tobys final film could adapt the amazing renew your vows series and Andrews final film could adapt the end of peters time as the Ultimate spider-man. this half assed, nostalgia bait multiverse nonsense does a disservice to 3 spectacular versions of the wall crawler. if this movie was done right it could have truly been sensational but i guess if we want to see a superior version of it we might just have to do our own multiverse nonsense.
Great analysis. Loved it. The only part I do not agree with is that Peter accidentally messed up the spell Strange was casting. Strange never explained what he was going to do. To me No Way Home started to feel strange right from the moment another Avenger gaslighted Spider Man into feeling responsible for his own impatience.
Your first point doesn’t make sense there’s plenty of times in main continuity in which Spider-Man has tried to straight up murder someone like bro did you not read the death of Gwen Stacy? It was literally the same thing as here as when he tried to kill goblin he never stopped himself like Tobey, Goblin just killed himself by accident.
In Spectacular Spider-Man he’s going to kill green goblin once again when aunt may stops him like no this is not out of character and you are extremely inconsistent with your takes.
ASM #122, Peter Parker, 1 page before Goblin impales himself on his glider: "Good lord, what in the name of heaven am I doing? In another moment I might have *killed* him! I would have become like him! A- a- murderer!"
Lord, please grant me the confidence of an incorrect RUclips commenter
@@PillarofGarbage you’re right I misremembered that but you didn’t respond to the one I said below it.
You are right. Let's get that out of the way. Your analysis is sound and the video is quite entertaining to watch. Mind tingling.
But let me express two things:
1. Things get messy when complex stuff such as multiverses (in-fiction) or changes of creators (out-fiction) happen. And it is very difficult to impossible to sort it out in a neat way. The easier method is to restart all of it. You'll have a bit of a mess when you don't do that. I think you can't escape that.
2. Another commenter (David Esch) mentioned this already, but life is not as neat as narrative. We usually have to experience the same lesson bunch of times before we learn it. And it's not even that; people change, environments change, mental status change... There are no "my character won't do that, it's against his alignment" in real life. It is always new situations and new analyses. Well, you might say: "Art imitates life and that is exactly how it is in art." You will be probably right (as you know more than me), but we live our lives continuously. But this was a 2 hr movie, I can't grasp such complex situations; so art (narrative) follows mentally logical paths (which you refer too). Thats why it seems weird, but it is not that unrealistic. imho at least.
The subtitles to this video made me realize it’s “retcon” and not “redcon”
The weird thing about "No Way Home" is that, along all the fanservice, it feels like damage control. It's meant to be Tom's Spidey's "true" origin where he becomes who he's SUPPOSED to be (AKA giving the loudest fans what they want. down to the Uncle Ben repeat), and then they try to convince you that this was the plan ALL along.
It's so overt about its intention to "fix" Tom's Spidey by making him more like the previous versions, it's distracting at times.
Ok if you truly believe this movie was supposed to “fix” Tom’s Spider-Man, then tell me where was his character arc going to end originally?
Thank you for naming what I've been feeling since its release
I think a key difference between Tom's Peter and the other Peters is that they didn't have both Uncle Ben AND Aunt May taken from them. They lost one, but still had the other to grieve with and to support them and be supported by. Tom's Peter lost Uncle Ben, and then he lost the only parental figure he had left in Aunt May and was left alone and felt even more responsibility for it because it wasn't just something he let slip that caused Aunt May's death, it was a comparatively very direct consequence of his choices, even if it wasn't really his fault because he was just doing the right thing. The other Peters lost someone, but they didn't lose everyone. Andrew's Peter also says that after he failed to save Gwen he took a dark turn. Tom's Peter was also dealing with the thought of his erasure from the world's and the remaining loved ones' memory, which was even more loss coming his way. The Green Goblin was the target he found on which he thought he was justified to unleash all that pain and frustration, and also we're talking about the Spider-Man who was very irresponsible with Stark tech in FFH and who did end up using insta-kill in Endgame! Sure, it was a kill or be killed situation, but it was already out of character.
Simply put, Tom's spidey did chose to stop once Tobey acted as a wall to hold him back.
If Tom wanted to he probably could've persisted at any time, especially after Tobey was attacked and downed by Goblin.
The fact he didn't try to do it again shows it was an act fueled by rage, his aunt died after pushing him to help Norman while he was hesitant to after all. He followed her example because he did accept it was the right thing to do. But it lead to a grave loss, and he's still young and human like any of us, Tobey and Andrew have lived longer lives and gone through a lot of bad to come out the other end of it as stronger people.
Tom lost Ben yeah, but I got the sense it wasn't as traumatic for him and more for his aunt if anything.
So he started centering a lot of his decisions around her and others he cared for as time went on. So having to lose that after doing what you thought was right when before the biggest struggles so far were things that mainly put him at risk directly and only somewhat bled into endangering his friends and loved ones mildly was a lot to take in.
Ultimate Spider-Man is a good example of a younger Peter who even despite his lessons learned could still be prone to the kind of reckless decisions a teenager can slip into. I genuinely think after Tom's Peter lost his Aunt May it started to break the resolve that she was always there to nurture. If Tobey didn't step in would Tom have killed Goblin, probably. But honestly I didn't find it unsatisfying that he did regardless because for Peter the ones around him have always been core to how he as a person stayed on a path of responsibility. And if for this Peter alternate more experienced versions of himself slotting into that mentor role when he feels he's lost that entirely is what he needs to keep him on that track then I'm not against simply seeing one take on the character try that idea. If it doesn't satisfy everyone that's to be expected, but to say he needs to follow the same pattern the other Spider-Men have followed when he hasn't had the same experiences and isn't exactly the same person feels odd. I'm interested to see where this take on Spider-Man goes and how he develops from this unique moment in HIS story.
Also, I know I have been watching a lot of Doctor Who recently, because I didn't even realize you had an English accent until the end when you pointed out you were English.
That termite analogy was straight up hilarious.
This essay feels like an exercise in over-analysis (as does quite a lot of the content here) while somehow simultaneously only focusing on the surface level
over-analysis here is a strange accusation - what part of this is *too far*, and why?
@@PillarofGarbage I'll start by acknowledging that it could very well be the case that I'm just not as critical a thinker and therefore don't (or can't) see it the way you do. It just seems to me that some of the takes here come from a state of seeing what isn't there, if that makes sense.
I'll admittedly have to go back and see what exactly I was talking about, as I made the comment during the outro of the video and therefore the contents were still fresh on my mind; but I think that a decent enough example would be on the topic of Peter's willingness to kill Norman in that moment and what it means that he was stopped by Tobey's version.
I feel that the significance of the moment Tobey jumps in to stop Tom is just as significant a character moment for Tom as for Tobey, because while he may not have overtly made the choice to stop himself in time, he still made the choice. He could have fought Tobey to get to Goblin, but he didn't because he knew it was wrong; no matter how badly he wanted it. And for Tobey's part, even though he didn't out-and-out murder Carradine, he still takes responsibility for it. The pleading look he gives Tom in that moment, to me, speaks to all of what I laid out just now.
I feel your analysis of it all was focused on the surface of what it means at face value, and then over-analyzed (there it is) THAT part; instead of looking at the context of the characters and the more subtle bits of dialogue.
Again, it's a very good chance that I'm wrong and that I'm just not as smart as you, which is fair. But personally, that scene was one of my absolute favorites in the entire film and I don't feel as though it was properly represented in this piece. I feel the same about this movie being the climax to the "origin", but I don't feel as strongly about that bit.
All that said, I am very much a fan. And I was a tad heated when I originally made the comment, and am currently milking your comment section for an overly-long explanation of my thoughts, so sorry about that. Anyway, cheers! And I look forward to the next one.
Tom is a very different Spider-Man from the others. He's been part of the Avengers. He's been through a nearly world ending event. He's basically fought battles in a war that included fatalities and blames himself for every failure of others getting hurt. He isn't as naive and idealistic as he was after being betrayed by Mysterio and suffering huge losses (Tony and May and being snapped) so he isn't confident in his abilities to keep those he loves safe. It's what motivates him to want to end threats permanently and why he chooses to stay away from Ned and M.J. I'm glad Toby stopped him to remember who he was and why he wanted to be a hero in the first place.
There's another point here you didn't address.
The conflict between Peter and Strange in this movie is that Strange just wants these villains to go back to their home dimensions to meet their fates but Peter can't accept them dying and wants to save them, putting himself in massive amounts of danger to do so. He also went to Strange to cast the spell not for his own benefit, but because his friends and family were being dragged down with him. Both more quintessential Spiderman TM choices.
But in itself the decision to fix the villains makes no sense, they ignore that half those villains won't actually end up dead and that returning them to the point they were snatched also won't save the ones who die anyway. Octavius for example still needs to sacrifice himself to stop his experiment from blowing up new York for instance. Yeah those last points are a bit of a bit pick (there are no hard and fast rules to multi ersal travel I guess) but the fact Peter starts the film trying to save the bad guys does reinforce the fact that they need to reverse his character journey just so they can get him back to where he was at the start of the film for that big Spiderman origin moment.
There’s one key point that puts Tom-Spidey’s attempt to murder Green Goblin in a somewhat different light:
The *canonical* comic Spider-Man-or rather, Peter Parker (because he makes a deliberate point of removing his mask first)-brutally attacked and nearly killed Kingpin for attacking Aunt May.
…And his plan was premeditated enough that he went to Riker’s specifically to beat down Kingpin when he was *already in prison.* (It’s in Amazing Spider-Man #542, if you want to check it out.)
…And the only thing that stopped Peter is that Aunt May was still in critical condition.
…And Peter explicitly warned Kingpin that if Aunt May *did* die… he’d be back to finish the job. (“I said I was going to kill you, and I am. But I didn’t say I was going to do it *today.*”)
So there is, at least, a canonical comic basis for Tom-Spidey attempting premeditated murder to get revenge for the *actual* murder of Aunt May. But that being said, I definitely enjoyed the video and appreciated your analysis!
I never saw either spider-man universe before this and just was... confused.
I know what happened in the films, but I lack the emotional connections to them a lot of other people have. I have engaged in Spider-Man media during my childhood (Mostly the Cartoons but I did read some Comics) but never the film series. I lacked the Nostalgic Hook that they tried for and I feel it made it so I saw it as... meh if that makes sense?
Technically Toby's Spider-Man has 3 deaths on his soul, Uncle Ben, the first guy he shot Uncle Ben, and Sandman.
Weird watching this expecting a hot take just to find out that my milktoast fence riding indifference to the movie is the hot take.
Honestly I don't know what a hot take of this movie would be
I think the gravity of Toby preventing him Tom from killing Osborne works because, while he didn’t murder Uncle Ben’s killer, he says in No Way Home that he wanted the man dead and that he got what he wanted. He caused the man’s death and it affected him, so he saved Tom from himself. I also had no trouble buying Tom Hollands willingness to murder Norman Osborne because the guy had just killed Aunt May.
0:08 i hate it when this happens. FFH is not the first example of this and it unfortunately won't be the last
I too didn't feel lke it's best spiderman movie, mainly I didn't get anything different from i have got from other spiderman movies and if the same movie didn't have any nostalgia people may not have liked it.
I definitely enjoyed far from home way more than no way home.
Good video PoG
However, i think you might be able to look at NWH as essentially The Night Gwen Stacy Died for MCU Peter
Which in the comics, did have Peter losing control as well, despite having learned all the lessons that made him Spider-Man. It’s a second defining moment where Peter comes face to face with the darkest parts of himself
However, while I believe that justifies a lot of the “this is the moment he becomes Spider-Man” stuff, the specific scene that you have issues with I agree on
He should have made the choice to pursue mercy himself
Though it is worth noting that considering how he used the cure so soon after, the implication is somewhat that Tobey stepping in gave him the moment to breathe and find perspective that he needed to realize he had let his anger consume him.
Technically, Tobey’s Peter didn’t kill the burglar himself, true, but the crook did only fall out the window because Peter was pursuing him so angrily and had him so spooked. Once he fell out the window, Peter was shaken out of his lust for vengeance. This is similar, I feel, in that MCU Peter needed to be shook out of his darker impulses.
One thing I will say is that, as great as Andrew was in NWH, I think he was a little flanderized. He became a lot of the comic relief, and particularly with what was established to have happened to him in the aftermath of Gwen’s death I think that did him a disservice.
i don't entirely agree, i suppose i half agree. but i like hearing the alternate perspective.
i think that anyone can be led to murder, and that even the best of us, ~Spider-Man~, isn't an exception. do i think Spider-Man doesn't kill? most certainly, it would be completely against his character and the point of him to do so. would it have been satisfying if Peter killed Goblin? i must say yes, because of the horrible immorality of his actions in the movie that have affected both us and the protagonist. but i like that he's stops, and i like that the one who stopped him wasn't himself.. but instead, himself.
i agree that the rewalking of what has already happened, albeit, offscreen, is incredibly silly.
but i think this scene is is Peter's wakeup call. like, you know when you're told something once, internalise it, but then lose it, and must take it in again? it's compelling stuff. i don't remember which comic, unfortunately, but i love a certain story where it turns out Uncle Ben's killer is afoot, and is doing murderous shit, and Peter instantly falls into the same vengeance that he fell into back then. he thought he was over it, but he wasn't. i think that's pretty heavy and pretty realistic. i don't recall if he stopped himself or another did, but all and all, the general premise itself was enough to hit hard for me.
i think that, peter, is human. and being human, he can relapse, fail, make the wrong choice. you know when you're walking forward, ready to make the wrong choice, and you think to yourself, "i hope somebody stops me.", albeit subconsciously? that's the feeling that i love how it was captured here. here, peter was resolved to kill a man, despite already having promised to be a good person to his uncle, and even to his aunt, who was killed again, and said the very same words as his uncle did in her dying breathe. he denied that to himself, "no, no! this keeps happening! i'm losing everyone i love! i need to end it at the source, a killer killed my (surrogate) parents, so they should be killed themselves!" he no doubt thought to himself. (well, that's my interpretation.)
filled with utter rage and denying the truth presented before him. i love how human and flawed of a response he has. luckily, he DOES have people to stop him. and, symbolically, it's not just a metaphor for that it's good to rely on others, and a setup for the ending of the movie where everyone loses their memory of him, which will no doubt lead to a negative character arc with Venom in the next film about not needing others, but rather, it's also a metaphor for him stopping HIMSELF. the other peters have been through these feelings while much older than this Peter. this is just a scared, angry, frustrated 15 year old boy. so, to basically be stopped by his 'future' selves, his SELF, and OTHERS at once.. it's a thematic resolution that it's okay to rely on others, and that at the same time, sometimes you'll be all alone, and have to grip yourself and take the right path, no matter how much it disgusts you.
that was atleast, my metatextual (would that be the correct term? perhaps not.) reading of the work.
Thank you for making my point about Uncle Ben’s death
While I don't agree from my POV of the film, I do understand yours. You did a great job of supporting your opinion without bashing. My only nostalgia is remembering my son watching those previous films over and over and over again. I know a distant cooking in the kitchen summary of scenes. He has no interest in the Tom Holland standalone films but I think he would agree with you if he actually watched.
Re: The scene - Tom could have still killed Goblin but the look on Tobey's face, as the more experienced and older Spiderman face said it all. Zzon't Zoo It! lol Tom's has a continuous origin story in a universe with other superheroes that are essentially training wheels so it has to be done differently.
2:24 this is a hilarious point to make because MCU Spider-man has already killed before No Way Home. In Infinity War he's the one who devises the plan to throw Ebony Maw into space, even if Iron Man is the one who carried it out, and in Endgame he uses the instakill mode to murder dozens of Thanos' mooks. Just because they're faceless, unimportant alien mooks doesn't make it any less of a murder spree
Besides, Peter trying to kill Norman for killing aunt May puts me in mind of Back in Black, when Peter goes to prison, beats the Kingpin half to death for shooting aunt May, then promises when she does die from her wounds, he will come back to finish the job. So yeah, I have no issues believing Peter would try to kill his aunt's murderer, specially when it's been, what, less than 24 hours since she died? Though ultimately, MCU Peter does make the right choice, curing Norman instead of killing him when he gets another chance
5:25 did he though? Did he even exist? I mean, there are no pictures of him in the house anywhere, nobody ever directly mentions him, the closest reference we have of him is the briefcase, and that clows up to hell with nobody remarking on it. I think all the signs point, whether the MCU wanted them or nor, to the MCU being a universe where Ben Parker just didn't exist, which I am more confident of after No Way Home buries May alone, instead of next to a husband's grave. It would explain why Peter has to learn Great Power in movie 1 and Great Responsibility in movie 2, and why he didn't say "oh yeah like uncle Ben used to say" when May tells him GPGR in movie 3
I don't disagree with all the nostalgia stuff, or with Disney's evil intentions, but the way I see it, NWH is MCU going "well, what we've written so far isn't Spider-man, let's change him to bring him in line with the original character"
Anyways, happy holidays
Whether Ben existed or not doesn’t matter. Clearly based on his introduction he got the gist of with Greta power comes great responsibility
And I can’t believe they truly think they weren’t writing Spider-Man before, because he acts exactly the same as a hero.
He sacrifices his personal life to do the right thing. He prefers to save villains lives instead of letting them die.
This is a movie where Peter matures, but it definitely ain’t an origin. He definitely isn’t more Spider-Man than before.
I think No Way Home Peter’s revenge is more similar to that of Spider-Man 3’s Peter than anything. In that film, Peter realized that Uncle Ben’s killer was still out there, and, after being influenced by the symbiote, went on a manhunt for the killer. Peter didn’t stop until he believed he had killed the man responsible. I don’t think Peter is acting out of character here, since he is at one of the lowest points in his life, and his negative emotions compounded with the symbiote brought out the darkest side of himself. No Way Home’s Peter goes through a similar relapse in character growth, where he backtracks on his already-established morals under the weight of his new anger and grief. Basically, Tobey’s Peter did the exact same thing.
I just want you to know, I entirely agree. This is my opinion too. I don't hate the movie, in fact I think it's *very* fun with a lot of emotional gut punches, Stella action and beautiful moments.
However. While the part 3(6) origin story is weird, I think it shows the jumping-off point as we see Peter get older. He's going to college. High school peter is done and he's lost *everyone* by the end of this movie and is utterly alone.
He is now something new to what we saw in Civil War. He's no longer the character people will say "Geez tony, how old is this kid?" he's a man now. And he's probably going to become an elite member of any team they put him in and no longer the character so young the other members question them for it.
All that being said! THAT~ could be undone with the very next appearance from him so we'll see.
S-tier Patreon plug xD
There is a lot to critique about NWH, but May dying is clearly this Spideys counterpart to the death of Gwen Stacy at the hands of Norman Osborn. That was the final event that ended his origin phase in the comics and it happens here. NWH even has the same killer, but a different victim.
Now consider what Spidey stopped Tom. Tobey. The one who had the "goblin murder scene" scene closest to the comics (albeit with Mary Jane as the victim) and stopped the events from unfolding the way we know. That is why Tobey was the one to stop Tom, because he is the one Spidey who did it before.