@@youaveragemeluhan-wi3oh if you have never witnessed a true miracle outside the boundaries of space and time, there is no god. babies aren’t born racists or murderers, they are taught or develop those ideologies based on their environment. if you grow up in an atheist household, you won’t grow up thinking you have a relationship with god because you are not old enough to formulate your own opinion and are instead indoctrinated with that idea from the start.
@@ayanokojikiyotaka2413As far as I understand, Christians believe that the Indians in that scenario are not held accountable for not adhering to the laws that the Jews received, but instead to a certain moral standard of values that are present in all people in all cultures. They would have still been expected to not murder, thieve, rape, and so on.
@@AnonYmous-yj9ib the objective foundation is the sacred scriptures It’s legitimacy is that, it comes from an omniscient and omnipotent being You can say that, « yeah because you have faith in those books but not me so how can you prove me that those scriptures come from an omnipotent being ? » And my answer would be Go read the Quran If you think about it Most religious people know everything about atheism but only 0.05% become atheist. When most atheists know nothing about any religions and when they try to learn about them, they statistically are a lot more to convert Isn’t that funny nigga ?
First, He still did not answer the argument by saying on which all morality was based on and where it came from. Second, if God is real we would not have any authority to say what is good And evil but him who has created everything and is all knowing. Thirdly, still does not explain why all cultures and societies has banned murder and requires people to obey their parents or why everyone, except when they commit the act, thinks stealing is wrong. Also, Christianity believes in a sincere repentance of their sin not just trying to save themselves right before heaven.
You're 100% correct - in this clip he did not address William Lane Craig's main claim about objective morality and the basis of it. I'm not sure if you've seen this full debate, but Harris does address that elsewhere. Harris's main point is that the human experience runs through a spectrum from the worst possible reality (e.g. everyone is suffering and being tortured 24/7) to the best possible reality (i.e. there's no suffering/everyone is blissfully happy). Harris argues in this debate that objective morals exist, but they're based on humans trying to achieve the "best possible reality," so, to that end, that's why all cultures condemn murder, rape, child abuse, etc. Anyway, even though I'm an atheist and I agree with Harris about the absurdity here, it does smack of an appeal to emotion and maybe a few red herrings/strawmen. The "new atheists" from 10 years ago really didn't do a fantastic job in these debates.
Imagine not understanding the simplest ideas of evolutionary biology. You murder someone in your hunter gatherer group? There are only 20 people in your group, you just dropped the tribes chance of surviving by 5-10%. You steal? Dropped it by another huge margin. Dont listen to parents or elders? Hunts need absolute cooperation. You idiots need to pick your brains off the floor and dust them off.
That’s why we Hindus believe in Karma - It doesn’t matter if those Hindus believe in god or not. Everyone knows what you do will impact on what you will get. It doesn’t matter if you believe in Jesus or Allah, if you do good you will get your religious rewards whatever they may be but if you do bad, none of your Gods can save you from it and whoever says so is lying to you.
I had a jehovas witness show up at my door and asked him the same thing. The thief on the cross immediately goes to heaven, but a mom who in anger kills someone who hurts her child and curses God in her dying breath goes to hell.
Arguments for God have been very flimsy. Here's an example. I forget the philosophers name but they said that it's advantageous to believe in God. The positive and negative of believing in God is as follows: positive is an infinite gain of a paradise if God exists and a small finite negative loss (for example being wrong, living a certain way to avoid sins) if God doesn't exist - the sum of these two is positive infinity gain. For those that don't believe God, then the positive if God doesn't exists is a finite positive gain (for being right) and the negative is when God does exists and the negative infinity loss of being sent to Hell. So the sum of these is a negative infinity loss. Therefore, even if you're not sure, it is in your interest to believe in God. However, the problem is how do we know God works this way? The Christian God is the greatest being in the universe, therefore anything humans can imagine, if God exists, he is greater than what humans can ever imagine - so how do we know anything about God? Which religion is right, if any? What if God wants you to use your God given gift of logical thinking (only believing what you have direct proof for, which we don't have for God)? Then believing in God would result in a negative infinity loss since you're believing without concrete proof and disregarding your God given gift of logical deduction/thinking. The problem with any "God exists" argument is that there's is not objective observations or proof that God exists. So this argument can never be resolved unless we have definitive proof. Philosophers have tried for centuries, but there is always an objection to their seemingly solid arguments (such as the example I gave above).
The fact that the nature of God himself makes it impossible to prove he exists makes the argument for God infinitely more ludicrous than any atheist argument.
@@denniskang9591 We can know God through personal encounter but also through the revelation of His son Jesus, who authenticated himself through resurrection from the dead, which is again attested to historically for example by the fact His closest friends were prepared to take on tremendous persecution and die horribly to proclaim this truth with no benefit to themselves, which they surely would not have done had they not been sure of His resurrection.
@@denniskang9591 I think you are referring to Pascal's wager above. There are more interesting arguments out there. The fine tuning argument for example or Godel's modal logic proof perhaps
1. Logic and common sense prove the existence of God 2. Plain stupidity or ignorance or lack of understanding or a combination of the three deny the existence of God. This video exemplifies point 2.
Just goes to show that you're clueless as to how logically valid reasoning works, because there is none whatsoever that leads to the rational conclusion of either your God, or anyone else's. It is however hilarious how theists have done an exceptionally piss-poor job of trying to co-opt "science" and "logic" in pursuit of their sky wizards over the years, without understanding either and failing miserably. Religious apologetics relies on irrational and emotional special pleading, not rationality, you sad pretentious fantasist. Oh, and your comment exemplifies excessive irony and you're the embodiment of plain stupidity, ignorance and lack of understanding.
@@xreiiyoox that's not how it works. It's who claims god exists that has the burden of proof. By the way, @kidsliketolearn didn't bring evidence, he plain insulted everyone who doesn't believe in god, and you did it too. Thanks. So tell me, what's the evidence for god's existence?
Amazing how most arguments one can make denying the existence of an abrahamic God can easily be refuted in our religion of Islam, in our Religion, if you are truly sorry for what you did and you truly want to repent, then God will forgive You, That doesn’t mean you are not subject to punishment anymore, if in the hereafter the victims haven’t forgiven you then you will serve the ultimate punishment of gods wrath
Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. Proverbs 1:7 - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 18:2 - A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself. Proverbs 29:9 - If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest. Proverbs 18:7 - A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul Proverbs 14:7-9 - Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge Proverbs 14:16 - A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident. Proverbs 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall. Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26 11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. 12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
Ironic quotes from your big book of ancient superstition isn't an argument. But thanks for demonstrating exactly what theists are justifiably accused of.
So a good parent would support and save a serial killer and mass murderer? Or would a good person looking out for the better of all give up that liability to save others?
A good parent will successfully save them. A well-intentioned one will try. An omnipotent parent would always succeed. You can't call something good without looking at results. I am not a good artist, despite the sincerity of my attempts.
Admittedly, the religious community is partially conditioned to be stagnant on their existing views and prefer to evade than to engage. However, if your argument or Sam Harris’ had represented the theist’s beliefs properly and not mischaracterized it so abysmally, then it could have more substance than what it ostensibly seems
I, you, and every human living, yet to live, and dead have morals instilled in them, which they are aware of as soon as they are self aware. If, as atheists would suppose, we are just as the wild beasts, just further 'evolved', why would we have morals, for they have no morals. Morals are clearly above natural necessity which is the principal of evolution. If anything, evolution wouldn't favour morals. If lions had morals, they wouldn't be savage hunters as they are, but they don't have morals and are, in the earthly realm, successful for that. Therefore, God must exist.
@@The_Christian_Cavalier why would atheists have no morals? Ofc evolution alone wouldn’t entail morality, but over time, as we grew more conscious and rational, we focused on protecting our species as a whole, which eventually evolved into feeling discomfort at the sight of any deprived rights. Ofc, that depends on where you are. Also, how does God play into the morality game? You didn’t finish your point
@@sidtom2741 atheists do have morals because they are humans, that is my point. Also, chimpanzees which are closer related (supposedly related) to us than many other beasts have no more compassion than your average cat or dog. All animals care about themselves and primarily their young, but humans care not just for that, but also their fellow man. (Altough people are being taught to do otherwise atm)
@@The_Christian_Cavalier nah, but we’ve seen animals care for their species, and also the helplessness of others. It’s not common, but it’s an occurrence. Also, we share most of our DNA, and even similar mutation patterns with chimpanzees and a similar body structure. How could you say we’re not related? But I agree with humans have rationality and reasoning capabilities, which is something fauna lack, and there’s a deeper reason beyond mere evolution. I’m just curious where you get God from that
Being that I'm Christian myself im going try my best to argue from a completely unbiased lens. Assuming that God would be peace, love and forgiveness based on what the Bible says. Why would someone who in their right mind (sane in this case) who would do something as heinous as say rape, murder or be a fckn pedo/child predator? I've heard Christian family members try and tell me that suicide would be unforgiveable because you cant live to ask for forgiveness despite the fact we sin till we die meaning the possibly of you dying without an admittance of a specific sin is high. (We are saved by the blood that jesus chose to shed not our works). But regardless going back to my main point I always thought to myself if someone would do these fucked up things without being clinically proven to be sick in the mind Why would they have it in their heart to even care about forgiveness? Which is why I don't go crazy unhinged and say if a rapist asked for forgiveness that they would be let into heaven because I truly believe someone who would even do that probably doesn't give a damn about forgiveness
Every religion has their own beliefs about moral values and accountability. In islam, if someone dies without knowing the truth he won’t be punished for it where as one who knew the truth and rejected will face eternity in hell. Life is a test, this life was meant to test us therefore that’s why we need to understand our purpose and find the truth.
This is pathetic! It's the same "God created these horrible circumstances. God created our sins." Yada yada yada. When is it our fault, Sam? Oh, just the small little things? This man just keeps turning out to be more arrogant than when I was first introduced to him. I thought he might be someone to listen to, but then he revealed that he's a snake! Seriously. What is it that he's not willing to let go?
People who subscribe to these kinds of religious ideas concerning reality have made it clear they don’t care about accountability because there’s no accountability for their idea in the first place. Faith lacks accountability. It only exists where there is none. It is superstition.
God and Jesus may respond to this statement by reminding us that accountability is a fundamental aspect of Christianity. The Bible teaches that God is just and will hold all people accountable for their actions, both in this life and in the afterlife. In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus describes the final judgment, where people will be separated into two groups based on their deeds, and will receive either eternal life or eternal punishment. In Romans 2:6-8, Paul writes that God "will repay each person according to what they have done," and that those who persist in doing evil will face wrath and judgment. Furthermore, faith in God is not a license to do whatever we want without consequences. Rather, it is a call to live in obedience to God's commands and to seek his will in all things. James 2:14-26 teaches that faith without works is dead, and that our actions demonstrate the reality of our faith. In Galatians 5:22-23, Paul describes the fruit of the Spirit, which includes qualities such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. These are the characteristics that should mark the life of a Christian, and they reflect a deep sense of accountability to God and to others. In short, Christianity affirms the reality of accountability and calls us to live in a way that reflects this truth. While faith in God may go beyond what can be proven by empirical evidence, it is not a superstition that ignores the consequences of our actions. Rather, it is a powerful motivation to live in a way that honors God and seeks to benefit others.
@@XBonecrusherX28 It does, actually. It very much does teach that. The entire belief system is based around an act of vicarious redemption. Everyone’s sins being paid for by a single person. Sins of which people are said to be committed to despite that they were from before they were even born. So yes, not only does Christianity assert fundamentals of reality with no accountability for what it asserts, but the structure of the belief system itself obviously doesn’t care about accountability or responsibility. It pushes responsibility for something on those that had no part in it(sin), and then it pays for it for others instead of them paying for it themselves(it’s literally the most famous story of the belief).
@OrganicMachine You would make a fine point about accountability, but it's only a critique on the outside, so it is way off. Outside looking in it does seem as though we get off Scott free by believing in Jesus, but it's actually the opposite. Humans look to blame others naturally they don't want to take accountability, so Jesus comes to remove the eternal consequences by taking accountability for us. However, that doesnt stunt our growth. From Gods perspective He's looking down and seeing humans who always point to others as the cause of their problems or sins, and He comes Down and says ok Its my fault blame me. Jesus says that to the Father. That is the first step to help us realize that we should take accountability for others as He has taken accountability for us. So your wrong. I've seen it my manager was assigning work duties at IHOP and the girls were fighting that they always get the hardest work. I was looking at his face He was so mad, but instead of talking and ordering by his authority for the girls to listen and clean he got up and started to clean. Everybody shut up. I got up and started helping him and all the girls shortly followed. Sometimes all people need is an example and a clean slate. You ll know if you experience it. Hes not just our savior but our role model
@@alejandromagnobarrasa9244 Someone else “taking the accountability” is the opposite of just that. The entirety of what Christianity is based upon is a complete negation of moral accountability. We have all of humanity being held accountable for the actions of two(sin). People believe this is a legitimate imposition of the notion of accountability/responsibility. Despite that they believe this, they then believe that someone else(Jesus) can pay for it. You have people being held accountable for something they didn’t even exist to take part in, then you have someone else paying for it. It’s utter nonsense. Madness, and completely unnecessary. It’s like a lesson that is the antithesis of moral accountability/responsibility. It’s vicarious redemption, and it’s immoral.
@OrganicMachine Do you mean to tell me that you believe a parents actions dont effect or influence the actions of the child? Or that the society one lived in cant effect what they did? Why are boys that grow up without a father more likely to commit violent crimes and end up in poverty? Your judging God for things your not even thinking about. That original sin isnt how sin is judged or even spread. Sin spread to all men because all sinned, but it doesnt change the fact that God gave Adam a better chance to never sin than the Chance that normal humans have. He wrecked the world God gave him, and parents who abandon their sons wreck the family God gave them. Nevertheless, Everything was provided for Adam by God He didnt have to work for food or worry about paying rent he lived off the land and owed no one nothing for eating fruit off of a tree. We come into a society of slaves for slaves. You buy a house but you still pay taxes on your own property? Are you still paying taxes on your car or stove or dinner? No it's ridiculous. The world we step into is full of thieves who steal from us and then we begin to steal from others. We do things like no report our income to the government lie on our tax returns and support and apply for welfare. Are you honest on your tax returns about your gas expenditures and do you fully accept that your lying and stealingt? Do you have all your tax receipts? No man no one does they estimate without proof and justify it by saying they are taking too much away from me. Adam didnt have to worry about all that. God could easily come in With Jesus and condemn every lie or every theft or every white lie or every grocery tasting by living a perfect life proving itsnot impossible. Dude it's insane. Absolute Moral accountability leads to death for . Charles Manson could have become a Christian, which absolves him from the Spiritual consequences of His sin, but he still suffered the earthly consequences, so what exactly are you complaining about? God is doing this to make a positive impact on The Ones He Loves and the world Benefits from the sacrifice of Jesus. Do what Jesus did. Travel around enlightening others don't work and stop sinning. For 3.5 years. I guarantee you you wont. If you do God will for sure give you a spot in Heaven. I'm His Son I know how He thinks prove to Him your not just speaking without intentions of doing anything. Your all words judging the actions of your moral superiors. Doctor heal yourself is a stupid proverb. A doctor who is sick can still heal others. One of my former boss used to pay me only 80 hours ofwork evenwhen I worked 120 and all of my bosses never paid me over time. I had less money so when I was short on food sometimes I would go a week only eating two times. I told myself lions only eat twice a day. Would you do that or eat the food at your job? I did both I wrote down everything I ate and paid for it later. And sometimes i just ate without paying for anything. All three are wrong, btw in fact nothing i could do in that situation could be considered right. I report my boss he could lose his business and not be ableto feed his family but he may never do it again. If I steal because he stole from me thenI'm just like him. If I borrow because I dont have even with consent I'm still like him when he pays late, and I give him an excuse to keep paying late. If I say nothing and go without food I dont become like him, but without reporting him, he will continue to do the same to others. Sorry dude but your morality and judgements are flawed because they dont come from well fleshed out ideas as in you havent put into practice what you preach. It's easy to say God did wrong by doing this of course. He says the righteous for the unrighteous and the just for the unjust. How is this good? For Himi it's not, but for me its Everything.
Well done Sam . If you help one person escape from their indoctrination you have done more good than most. Just look at the relief of those who thought their way out. like birds being released from a cage.
@@andyfireandair Jesus doesn't exist bruh, you do love delusion eh, however, if you want to defend the twisted morality of the bible and of "god" that is your problem but have in mind it is promoded in the bible, and you don't even have to read between the lines to notice how they accept slavery, genocides, discrimination, so yed actually those morals are very selective and if you follow then you could actually do whatever the hell you want without punishmeny because it is the word of "god". Your "god" only lives in your mind and he depends on you, go sleep a bit and wake up to reality, people die everyday every second every hour anywhere in the world, there always people suffering and just person suffering is too much, and that is every day every year since the beginning of life. There is no perfection
I am an ex-hindu who converted to Christianity. However I commend Sam on his concern for hindus! 👏🏻👏🏻 👏🏻 Even Christians fail to see what Sam is seeing from his perspective and how much of a heart it takes to see it that way!
I see a lot of christians claiming his argument is fallacious-strawman-saying it is ignorant of true Christian beliefs, yet haven't debunked his claims with any verse from their mystic book. We can support his argument with the incident of the thief on the cross who made it to heaven only upon confessing Jesus is lord on the cross. The bible is very particular about what guarantees access into heaven, which is believing and accepting Jesus as Lord. So a Hindu who dies not believing or accepting Jesus goes to hell, despite living a somewhat moral life and a thief who has stolen all his life, comes to God on the cross and makes heaven. How is this argument flawed?
Sam 's argument is so out of line for this reason: He is using his own logical argument in the sense that god does exist, vs what god allows, yet he ignores heaven and hell. If you are using your own logic in an argument vs god, you cannot ignore heaven and hell at the same time. Put heaven and hell which is eternity into perspective, you will begin to see how minimal our time on this earth is compared to eternity
As a believer in a higher power (there is ) just don’t know or does anyone if it’s a human. This does have a strong point yet I know there’s something more than just this one reality.
The judaeo christian god is at best an egotistical jealous tyrant who enjoys the suffering of the same beings he created. But unironically for the religious folks out there, if the universe and time is truly infinite, then what place is there for a god?
God IS infinite. He is the beginning, the now and the end. He doesn't need a place to exist. He is the place that sustains the universe. He doesn't need a time to exist He is the time. Our minds can't comprehend this so we deny it. And so says The Bible.
Basically everyone in India is raised from birth as Hindu. That's all they know. Christianity to them would sound as believable as Hinduism does to you. Many of them have never even considered Christianity just like you have never considered the fact that Hinduism might be true.
Well according to that rag of irrationality you call the bible, your God created everyone who lived and died prior to the Bible in isolation, and all cultures outside of it's limited regional influence, who never heard of that archaic piece of toilet paper. You see these people were neither known, or taken into account by the superstitious and provincial ignoramuses who fabricated it from their naive imaginations.
I believe the is a difference between the word "ignorance and unacceptance". Hell is the penalty of unacceptance of the revelation not ignorance of the revelation. This is exactly why God could not forgive Satan who was an angel according to the bible because Satan knew the revelation and the way of creation but decided to go against it .
I mean he’s right, if that serial killer believed in the commandment that Jesus is his son and has faith in the son. I doubt god will break the relationship and condemn you if you will do his will in heaven
@@momsnearu466 He's wrong straight out the gate. God did not engineer the ignorance of the Hindus, nor will He condemn them just for not knowing about Him. This shows me He's tilting at windmills. He's condemning some god hen formulated in his head, but that isn't God. His concern about moral accountability is rooted in his own naturalist understanding of the material world, not any understanding of God.
Classic strawman. He destroyed nothing. Christianity nor William Lane Craig teaches no such thing. Besides, why does Sam Harris think that serial killers do not deserve forgiveness. After all, according to Sam's world view, there is no good and bad, no right or wrong, so what is his problem with the serial killer? Christianity teaches that God knows the heart of hearts. If God choses to save a serial killer, He very well knows why.
You're wrong on Sam's worldview. Typical ignorance from those who proclaim a divine hand in their life. Enough people like you should be enough to convince anyone God is an illusion.
@@vakudibeardefender3953 You want me to do the work for you? Instead of you choosing to educate yourself on a viewpoint you don't understand or agree with? I suppose that's why you are so confident in your ignorance of other people views, a lack of care or follow through. Sam derives his moral landscape from concepts of empathy, wellbeing, and the evidentiary understanding of the consequences of actions. In short form, when someone says that something is morally good to Sam, that is because it is in line with an action that promotes what we view as the well being of conscious creatures. The goal is human flourishing through understanding the consequences of actions on conscious beings and, as a result of that, murder would be wrong because it is unnecessary and wanton ending of a life, leads to the opposite of flourishing, and is probably the worst thing for well being objectively. Not sure how much of this is debatable other than the silly retort of, why should we care about well being? That's just silly. The nice thing about this system is that any critique of this system that can prove it's superior to this system is, by definition, part of the system. The evidence in its contribution to wellbeing is vital. There are a few variations of this version of secular morality and I entertain you to compare them with the divine command theory you seem to adopt. Here's my question for you if you'd please: IF your god commanded you to kill your loved ones, as Abraham is asked to kill his son, would you do it and is it morally good to do so? Oh and I'm also unconvinced that serial killers deserve forgiveness by default. That's an absurd position to take.
@@DesertedSocrates The biblical story of Isaac is a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Dr. Brant Pitre has a video on this if you're interested A problem with secular moral statements is that they are just the subjective opinions of the person making them. For example you might think human flourishing should be maximized and someone else might think all humans should be eliminated to save the planet and the environment and wider ecosystem from human damage. Each moral statement is subjective. There is no objective morality. Only God can place objective moral duties upon us. William Lane Craig has a very accessible video on this concept if you're interested
He never read Romans 2:12-16. He should try reading the Bible. There is also a Revelation verse that says the same but i cannot recall the verse at the moment
It says in the Bible that Jesus came to earth not with peace but with a sword Also near the death of Jesus the one robber (I forgot his name) also close to his death confessed and accepted Jesus in his life BUT this guy thinks that Jesus would just let him go as all atheist do but he did not he said “and now you will die with me”
I'm not religious, but I know that Christians don't believe that serial rapist would go to heaven. It's not if you die believing in Christ, it's that you lived it, because only through actions can you show it. Your beliefs are only truly shown when faced with the challenges life throws at you.
That's because you probably don't know a single Christian who believes in the LITERAL word of the Bible and that ALL of the Bible is true. THAT'S a true believer. A true believer is what Harris is describing. I.e. Dr Craig
@@FreezingGrave Rather than asserting malice, I'll assume that you believe Christians think that lying about repentance is fine. I don't think that lip-service is part of either the literal of figurative interpretation of the bible. Just because someone says they repent, does not automatically mean they have. It's possible they could have, but unlikely. Are you aware of sects that assert simply uttering "I'm sorry, I repent" is all that's required to get into heaven? Most that I'm aware of believe that if it's not honest, it would not count, even if the person saying the worst believed them. But maybe I'm ignorant. What church believes in lip-service to get into heaven? It's news to me.
@@timbozza1678 I appreciate you not asserting Malice. Like I said, a true believer. A true believer is what Harris is describing. Not someone who is faking it. That person isn't in question. One who takes it all like Dr. Craig would. And you're right. Lip service is not figurative or literal representation of the Bible. That's why it's irrelevant because if it wasn't in the Bible, a true believer would probably adhere to what the Bible says and not what's not in it i.e. Lip service
@@FreezingGrave Ok, so it appears your argument is semantic. You may have a definition of true believer that Christians don't. But I see your point. Christians do think that a "true believer" would get into heaven, even if they were a serial rapist. However, I think a person who chose to rape isn't a person likely to become a true believer. My understanding is that it's a high bar, one which requires actions driven by conviction, tested in the face of challenges or temptations life throws, and it's much higher for those who have more to repent for. Also, just because someone says and believes they have transformed their spirit doesn't make it true if they haven't been tested. For example, the person who is caught, convicted, and dies in prison for a heinous crime won't go to heaven, even if they repent, because their transformation was never tested. Same with the person on their deathbed asking for forgiveness. It's not a simple concept, and because of its abstract nature, to me it's counter intuitive. Personal transformation of someone's nature is a concept Christians seem to believe. Hence their optimism that a person who once chose to commit heinous acts can become a different person in "spirit", that believes in a path of virtue, and tests themself in life by acting those virtues out. I'm way more pessimistic and think someone changing their nature that drastically is unlikely (likely because I don't spend my time, or derive meaning from, trying to convert folks to a dogmatic belief system). Because of a rapist's ego, I don't believe their character or nature is easy to transform. That's where I think the confusion lies. Just because a Christian believes a serial rapist can transform their character, repent, become a "true believer", and get into heaven, doesn't mean they will or are likely to, even in the face of Christian optimism and their propensity for forgiveness.
The argument. Goes the opposite way also if some kills like hitler and dies what happens to him with no punishment ? Is death to him him who has cause death of millions ?
I am always astonished that someone so intelligent and such an ardent atheist can have such a poor understanding of Christianity - it’s history, theology and philosophy. Like most of the new atheists when it comes to debating leading Christian philosophers and apologists he is a very good rhetorician but very weak on content
I feel sad for him because he is missing the point! Christianity is not based off what we can do to buy our way into heaven, we aren’t good enough but Jesus paid the price for us all to get into Heaven but some people don’t want the free gift and reject it. If you think ohh o just told a one small lie so I’m good enough vs oh I just abused this person . A liar an abuser! This is why God is soo good! Good news in the gospel! Praying all come into faith.
IGNORANCE IS NOT BLISS SAM.... the serial killer gets forgiveness by knowing and trusting God through an intimate relationship, not just by crying out without intent as you try to paint it.
This didn't even address the moral argument let alone destroy it. Craig argues that atheism doesn't account for a foundation to objective moral values and duties, and Sam replies by saying "but God isn't moral!" Try addressing the topic next time!
@AnonYmous-yj9ib that's a red herring. Impuning the morality of the God of the Bible only serves to disqualify him as a foundation for morality. It doesn't address the need to ground morality in a personal source. Also I don't claim o have special access to moral knowledge. Everyone can discern right from wrong for the most part, but that makes it more clear that there is a standard of morality which we come to know rather than create ourselves.
@AnonYmous-yj9ib clearly you don't understand the argument because the argument is in support of classical theism, not Christianity. So yes, it is a red herring because even if granted that Christianity is false, the moral argument still stands unopposed. Evolution merely provides a means that we came to know moral truths. It does not provide an answer as to what morality is. As a theist, I can be in full agreement that our moral senses came about by evolutionary processes yet believe the truth of morality itself is grounded in God.
@AnonYmous-yj9ib clearly you don't understand because the moral argument is Christianity independent. The moral argument can be sound while Christianity is false. Evolution can only explain how we came to know moral truths, not the ontology of morality itself. As a theist I can accept our moral beliefs came about by evolutionary development, yet still believe moral truth is grounded in God.
@AnonYmous-yj9ib your use of the Bible as evidence of the moral imperfection of God is judeo Christian specific. It does not apply to any other God. The objectivity of morality is a premise of the argument, not a conclusion. Keep in mind that Sam Harris does not dispute this premise since he accepts moral realism. But if you want evidence for it, I would argue it is more reasonable than alternatives. It seems quite evident that torturing children for fun is wrong, irrespective of any opinions or beliefs to the contrary. You may have some complex theory to explain this phenomenon as illusionary, but that seems far less plausible than the plain moral fact itself.
@AnonYmous-yj9ib And your reference for the impunity of god is the bible... So how is that applicable to classical theistic God? The Bible Only references juda christian God, not classical theistic God. If you're going off of Sam Harris's argument that he made in the video. She is a moral realist, so he actually agrees. There are objective moral values. That is a given for him. But if you want to take an opposing view and reject the existence of objective moral values and duties, I can merely point out that the objectivity of morality is highly intuitive. It seems quite evident that the idea of torturing little children for fun is objectively wrong irrespective of anyone's opinion or beliefs on the matter. If you want to take a position that such are merely illusory, be my guest. But I would have to say that any complex explanation to explain how such experiences are illusory seem less plausible than the moral fact itself.
@@DesertedSocrates Because the argument assumes certain things are bad(that arent bad according to the christian religion I believe), and uses that to undermine the moral argument for a christian God. But he hasnt proven morality exists in his materialistic worldview, or with science at all. And there is no internal contradiction in christianity I think( Im not christian, so I might be wrong) that states that the things sam mentioned as morally wrong things to permit.
@@inatimialago9745 Because the argument assumes certain things are bad(that arent bad according to the christian religion I believe), and uses that to undermine the moral argument for a christian God. But he hasnt proven morality exists in his materialistic worldview, or with science at all. And there is no internal contradiction in christianity I think( Im not christian, so I might be wrong) that states that the things sam mentioned as morally wrong things to permit.
@@Wartensteiin You didn't watch the debate if you think he didn't establish his moral framework while also annihilating "religious morality" as being absurd in its absolutism. What's hilarious is that people who believe their god is the moral arbiter are the ones who have done no work. Basing your moral and ethical framework on a hypothetical being that hasn't even been demonstrated to be possible isn't the answer to moral or ethical dilemmas.
These people claim to be wise yet they became fools that is not how salvation works. You can't just confess Jesus Christ and there you go you get into heaven no not at all you must be holy another thing he looks at the heart; ( no murderer will enter the kingdom of heaven
I'm not sure if he's actually studied the Bible, but one thing is certain, his view of the human condition is completely skewed. 👀 You can only say something like that about the good news of redemption available to absolutely anybody who repents and believes, if you have the lowest regard for sin and moral accountability, as well as true goodness (not superficial/ wrongly motivated goodness). The truth about the human condition is that: 1. everyone deserves judgement because everyone has committed sins Romans 1:18-32 and Romans 3:9-18 and 2 Timothy 3:1-9 2. salvation is available to everyone, through Jesus Christ, even though God chose one nation to reveal himself through - John 3:16 and Romans 3:22-26 3. God does not show partiality - Romans 2:1-11 and Acts 10:34-43 4. God will judge us according to the knowledge we had on earth John 9:39-41 5. Some people won't find God, because of their free will choice to reject him - Hebrews 11:6, James 4:6-10 and Psalm 10 6. You cannot be a friend of the world and a friend of God. If you are living your best life now, you're heading for hell - 1 John 2:15-17.
Sam repeatedly embarrasses himself with superficial arguments that only impresses those who are ignorant about Christianity. *Nobody* gets a *free pass* for even the smallest sin in Christianity. What lille Sami forgot is that Christ (God Himself) was voluntarily executed on the cross for the sins of this mass murderer and paid for it in the most horrific execution imaginable.
Dude, I feel no respect at all for religious people nowadays, you are just supporting made up ideas to keep making up more BS ideas about god and bible, not to mention you defend genocide, and killing of those who don't follow your ideas, plus slavery. I am not gonna tell you what you should do but I recommend you to stop living in delusion, arrogant creep
@@mkurosh you belief there's an old man in the sky who cares about what you do and always sees you even in your intimate moments... yeah that sounds so legit and so logical. Also, your religion likes slavery, genocides, narcissism, you can fool yourself and that's fine, but stop lying at others, that's the downfal of society
@@optimus3515 By Pontius Pilate, Roman governor of Judaea (26-36 ce) under the emperor Tiberius who presided at the trial of Jesus and gave the order for his crucifixion.
It wasn't about disproving objective morality, in fact he actually believes in something similar to objective morality. The argument was that the christian view of morality being rooted in their belief in christian god doesn't make sense.
@br5tw Ummm,how about God teaching us to love all people and follow the Saviors example of love and service and then he tells us he will torture those in fire amd brimestone for infinity for living a finite life of sin. Is that love? Or is it contradiction?
Is it not true that in the last moments of your life you can ask for forgiveness and go to paradise or heaven? Is that not what the thief did on the cross?
This might debunk the moral argument from a Christian perspective, but not from an Islamic one. All of the Hindus who died without previous revelations or the last revelation, the Qur'an, and have not heard about [the truth of] Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, for them shall be no punishment (they will judged by other means). And for the serial rapist murderer and all that: If he discovers Islam at the end of his life and sincerely converts, he'll go to Paradise since he was sincere and thus regretful of his past actions. If he knows Islam is the truth, goes around raping, murdering etc. and embraces Islam on his deathbed so that all his sins will be forgiven, he will go to hell for his insincerity. What if a Muslim does all these immoral acts and doesn't [sincerely] repent? Hell will be for him as well.
@@ChrisHall0397 "Everyone on the planet and throughout history (including Einstein, Newton and Darwin) is a monkey, except for me and my fellow few million atheists." -Christopher J. Hall Truly an intellectual atheist moment
Roman’s 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. All of us deserve death in Hell. However, God graciously elects christians to salvation through the spreading of the gospel.
Yes ma'am we do. We were created in perfect then chose, with some help of Satan, to sin against God. Our only hope is in Christ Jesus who lived the perfect life then died on a cross for the sins of the faithful. Then three days later was risen. The only perfect person died so that those who believe will be saved. @@emmanuella2960
What's so bad about hypocrites, anyway? Everybody gives me Pascal's wager. But Pascal himself recognized that some people can't believe. He said they should please the god by going through the motions of piety.
@chipan9191 Trumps version of the Bible ends with the Apostles Storming Jerusalem to overturn the results of the crucifixion. SNL news update Colin Yost.
Assumes everybody born in India will always be Hindu. Also people that live by the law.. not jewish law then we have the law in our conscience...will be judged by it in the second resurrection. Everyone that doesnt believe in Christ will not be saved by him but hope for mercy on judgment day! Also Jesus promise was resurrection and eternal life. Those deemed not worthy will be burned up and dead forever not tortured forever.
Instead of arguing against easy to win old religious statements trying to abolish the idea of God in men we should talk about our ways to search God in a modern more educated society. Because God is still there, people feels it and search it for all their life
These "old religious statements" were part of the debated this is taken from. And a lot of the points Sam makes relate to the idea that the belief in god as such is harmful and unavoidably leads to the consequences that are bad for society in general, not that just the old way is bad.
Another fool who doesn’t understand that all sin was taken by Christ on the cross because our works can never meet God’s perfection. In 2 Cor. 5:19 we are told what took place for us all. All we need to do is believe it and God will gift us Christ’s perfection as an inheritance for eternity. Without His holiness, no person shall be with God. Blessed God who loves us and made a way for us to be with Him. Amen.
The perspective is a little bit different in islam religion, the hindu isolation could get a better reward than the killer/rapist who in the end said that they believe in god. The same thing applies with muslims in the name of jihad who killed other people - the people killed could get a better reward than the ones claiming doing jihad. It is not as simple as “i believe in god and we all will be in better place afterlife”
Literally everyone on this comment section have no idea what your seeing here. This is a clip of a 3 hour conversation. And morality is just a comcept humans have. Its about what is or not accepted in YOUR time period. Slavery, murder, forced marriages all were omce "moral" in the past. Today our morality has changed.
That is not bullshit, but still not true. The culture isolation of the Hindus were not there from the beginning, that is like with the evil in the world, it is like darkness. What is darkness? The absence of light. Therefore the isolation in his example was made by going away from god. and generally, why was it bad what the murderer and raper did? Because without a creater, ANY life is meaningless, so why should he not go to heaven if jesus took his sins, and died for them?
Because the claim that was made by his opponent in this debate is that god can be the only source of objective moral values, and we all feel like objective moral values exist, so the god exists. So Sam was responding to the moral argument for the god's existence.
Sam Harris doesn't destroy anything. He shows from the very beginning of this clip that he doesn't understand God, how he created people, and how he interacts with them. The very beginning is strawman and then concludes with a simplistic wrong understanding of God. The ignorance and misrepresentation on his part is inexcusable. What should also be clear to people who are open is that his "vision" of God has absolutely nothing to do with how God actually acts. And the person who posted this is also just as ignorant as Sam Harris by his statement "Sam Harris DESTROYS...."
we are all born as atheist until someone starts telling us lies
Quite the opposite
@@youaveragemeluhan-wi3oh if you have never witnessed a true miracle outside the boundaries of space and time, there is no god. babies aren’t born racists or murderers, they are taught or develop those ideologies based on their environment. if you grow up in an atheist household, you won’t grow up thinking you have a relationship with god because you are not old enough to formulate your own opinion and are instead indoctrinated with that idea from the start.
@@youaveragemeluhan-wi3oh That's quite the lie you're telling yourself
@@mr.pluppy8240 you know what Imma ask you to prove it.
@@youaveragemeluhan-wi3oh Were you born racist? Were you born knowing algebra? Were you born being able to speak English? Etc, etc, etc.
Using these type of arguments against the Christian God demonstrates a massive misunderstanding of Christian theology.
Yes
Exactly!!! I’m still a baby in this walk and see the flaws in the argument he made 😢
Frfr
@@awuriefnejqwjmnwn4960So a convert will go to heaven even after conversion?
@@ayanokojikiyotaka2413As far as I understand, Christians believe that the Indians in that scenario are not held accountable for not adhering to the laws that the Jews received, but instead to a certain moral standard of values that are present in all people in all cultures. They would have still been expected to not murder, thieve, rape, and so on.
Sam doesn't know the ignorance of his own argument 🙄 there's no moral foundational basis for his Proposition. Just an subjective position.
@@AnonYmous-yj9ibdid he use too many big words for you?
@@AnonYmous-yj9ib God gave us free will dumbass
@@AnonYmous-yj9ibi think you just need to learn the definitions man
I completely understood
@@AnonYmous-yj9ib the objective foundation is the sacred scriptures
It’s legitimacy is that, it comes from an omniscient and omnipotent being
You can say that, « yeah because you have faith in those books but not me so how can you prove me that those scriptures come from an omnipotent being ? »
And my answer would be
Go read the Quran
If you think about it
Most religious people know everything about atheism but only 0.05% become atheist.
When most atheists know nothing about any religions and when they try to learn about them, they statistically are a lot more to convert
Isn’t that funny nigga ?
@@AnonYmous-yj9ib ahem
Are you blind ?
When you are full of confidence but wrong
How is he wrong
@@johnchambers9836 classic strawman
@aeris4393 no its not and you only think it is because you believe the subject matter is rational
@@johnchambers9836 read the devils delusion
@aeris4393 what???
I love the moronic christians in this comment section who just dont get it 😭
The answer is in the Bible. He failed to mention that.
@@7CFloI'm a Christian but what's the answer?
i feel like ordering KFC right now..
Please think about the suffering of the animals.
😂
First, He still did not answer the argument by saying on which all morality was based on and where it came from. Second, if God is real we would not have any authority to say what is good And evil but him who has created everything and is all knowing. Thirdly, still does not explain why all cultures and societies has banned murder and requires people to obey their parents or why everyone, except when they commit the act,
thinks stealing is wrong. Also, Christianity believes in a sincere repentance of their sin not just trying to save themselves right before heaven.
Yeah that was an embarrassment, cant believe the Atheist Bots are still clapping
You're 100% correct - in this clip he did not address William Lane Craig's main claim about objective morality and the basis of it. I'm not sure if you've seen this full debate, but Harris does address that elsewhere. Harris's main point is that the human experience runs through a spectrum from the worst possible reality (e.g. everyone is suffering and being tortured 24/7) to the best possible reality (i.e. there's no suffering/everyone is blissfully happy). Harris argues in this debate that objective morals exist, but they're based on humans trying to achieve the "best possible reality," so, to that end, that's why all cultures condemn murder, rape, child abuse, etc. Anyway, even though I'm an atheist and I agree with Harris about the absurdity here, it does smack of an appeal to emotion and maybe a few red herrings/strawmen. The "new atheists" from 10 years ago really didn't do a fantastic job in these debates.
@@awuriefnejqwjmnwn4960we cant understand Christians sheep still Christians
Imagine not understanding the simplest ideas of evolutionary biology. You murder someone in your hunter gatherer group? There are only 20 people in your group, you just dropped the tribes chance of surviving by 5-10%. You steal? Dropped it by another huge margin. Dont listen to parents or elders? Hunts need absolute cooperation. You idiots need to pick your brains off the floor and dust them off.
Pretending as if morality didnt exist thousands of years before christianity isnt jaut retarded but willfully ignorant to boot.
That’s why we Hindus believe in Karma - It doesn’t matter if those Hindus believe in god or not. Everyone knows what you do will impact on what you will get. It doesn’t matter if you believe in Jesus or Allah, if you do good you will get your religious rewards whatever they may be but if you do bad, none of your Gods can save you from it and whoever says so is lying to you.
Why’s it gotta be fried chicken?!
That seemed a bit racial to me too
@@Zenonbuster fried chicken would be on my last and I’m a honky. Take that.
@@Zenonbusterbruh let the whites enjoy fried chicken and stop being racist
Because it's delicious
@@RepsacZ Dave!
How can a smart man be so ignorant of the thing he is trying to refute?
What is he ignorant about
Because he's not smart.
You are displaying ignorance
I had a jehovas witness show up at my door and asked him the same thing. The thief on the cross immediately goes to heaven, but a mom who in anger kills someone who hurts her child and curses God in her dying breath goes to hell.
I love videos like this, they make my faith stronger. If this is the best atheism has to offer, that it a shame.
Yes, you are ignominy .
Arguments for God have been very flimsy. Here's an example.
I forget the philosophers name but they said that it's advantageous to believe in God.
The positive and negative of believing in God is as follows: positive is an infinite gain of a paradise if God exists and a small finite negative loss (for example being wrong, living a certain way to avoid sins) if God doesn't exist - the sum of these two is positive infinity gain. For those that don't believe God, then the positive if God doesn't exists is a finite positive gain (for being right) and the negative is when God does exists and the negative infinity loss of being sent to Hell. So the sum of these is a negative infinity loss. Therefore, even if you're not sure, it is in your interest to believe in God.
However, the problem is how do we know God works this way? The Christian God is the greatest being in the universe, therefore anything humans can imagine, if God exists, he is greater than what humans can ever imagine - so how do we know anything about God? Which religion is right, if any? What if God wants you to use your God given gift of logical thinking (only believing what you have direct proof for, which we don't have for God)? Then believing in God would result in a negative infinity loss since you're believing without concrete proof and disregarding your God given gift of logical deduction/thinking.
The problem with any "God exists" argument is that there's is not objective observations or proof that God exists. So this argument can never be resolved unless we have definitive proof. Philosophers have tried for centuries, but there is always an objection to their seemingly solid arguments (such as the example I gave above).
The fact that the nature of God himself makes it impossible to prove he exists makes the argument for God infinitely more ludicrous than any atheist argument.
@@denniskang9591 We can know God through personal encounter but also through the revelation of His son Jesus, who authenticated himself through resurrection from the dead, which is again attested to historically for example by the fact His closest friends were prepared to take on tremendous persecution and die horribly to proclaim this truth with no benefit to themselves, which they surely would not have done had they not been sure of His resurrection.
@@denniskang9591 I think you are referring to Pascal's wager above. There are more interesting arguments out there. The fine tuning argument for example or Godel's modal logic proof perhaps
"We have to grow out of this you know" - Christopher Hitchens ❤
Religion will never die.
Majority of humans are just too stupid sadly or to weak to handle that’s theirs nothing after we die and are too afraid
@vladimirtodd1221 afraid of what😂
1. Logic and common sense prove the existence of God
2. Plain stupidity or ignorance or lack of understanding or a combination of the three deny the existence of God.
This video exemplifies point 2.
Just goes to show that you're clueless as to how logically valid reasoning works, because there is none whatsoever that leads to the rational conclusion of either your God, or anyone else's.
It is however hilarious how theists have done an exceptionally piss-poor job of trying to co-opt "science" and "logic" in pursuit of their sky wizards over the years, without understanding either and failing miserably. Religious apologetics relies on irrational and emotional special pleading, not rationality, you sad pretentious fantasist.
Oh, and your comment exemplifies excessive irony and you're the embodiment of plain stupidity, ignorance and lack of understanding.
Prove god scientifically
@@Lyre000 prove the pythagorean theorem scientifically. prove the fundemental theorem of calculus scientifically.
while you exemplify the lack of 1... first of all, what counter argument do you have for him?
@@xreiiyoox that's not how it works. It's who claims god exists that has the burden of proof. By the way, @kidsliketolearn didn't bring evidence, he plain insulted everyone who doesn't believe in god, and you did it too. Thanks. So tell me, what's the evidence for god's existence?
Amazing how most arguments one can make denying the existence of an abrahamic God can easily be refuted in our religion of Islam, in our Religion, if you are truly sorry for what you did and you truly want to repent, then God will forgive You, That doesn’t mean you are not subject to punishment anymore, if in the hereafter the victims haven’t forgiven you then you will serve the ultimate punishment of gods wrath
Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Proverbs 1:7 - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 18:2 - A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.
Proverbs 29:9 - If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest.
Proverbs 18:7 - A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul
Proverbs 14:7-9 - Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge
Proverbs 14:16 - A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.
Proverbs 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.
Proverbs 23:9
Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26
11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
Ironic quotes from your big book of ancient superstition isn't an argument.
But thanks for demonstrating exactly what theists are justifiably accused of.
Circular reasoning. You can’t use the Bible to prove the Bible. Words in a book DO NOT constitute as fact or reality.
A child could go the wrong way, for a long time. A good parent unconditionally loves them and will still try to save them
So a good parent would support and save a serial killer and mass murderer? Or would a good person looking out for the better of all give up that liability to save others?
So God "lost us" Hindus and is trying to find us? Well hey, please let him know we are in India(and in many other parts of the world)
@@aliquidgaming1068god loves and hates our sin. He dosent support serial killer
He's waiting for you to search for Him
A good parent will successfully save them. A well-intentioned one will try. An omnipotent parent would always succeed.
You can't call something good without looking at results.
I am not a good artist, despite the sincerity of my attempts.
That's why Vedic god is real who decides afterlife based on Karma not beleif
It happened again. My work in progress disappears, when I touch the computer wrong.
That's not a case against God or objective morality, that's a case against the liveral understanding of Christianity
How is that not how Christianity works?
I used a similar argument with a religious friend and he just ignored it.
Admittedly, the religious community is partially conditioned to be stagnant on their existing views and prefer to evade than to engage. However, if your argument or Sam Harris’ had represented the theist’s beliefs properly and not mischaracterized it so abysmally, then it could have more substance than what it ostensibly seems
I, you, and every human living, yet to live, and dead have morals instilled in them, which they are aware of as soon as they are self aware. If, as atheists would suppose, we are just as the wild beasts, just further 'evolved', why would we have morals, for they have no morals. Morals are clearly above natural necessity which is the principal of evolution. If anything, evolution wouldn't favour morals. If lions had morals, they wouldn't be savage hunters as they are, but they don't have morals and are, in the earthly realm, successful for that. Therefore, God must exist.
@@The_Christian_Cavalier why would atheists have no morals? Ofc evolution alone wouldn’t entail morality, but over time, as we grew more conscious and rational, we focused on protecting our species as a whole, which eventually evolved into feeling discomfort at the sight of any deprived rights. Ofc, that depends on where you are. Also, how does God play into the morality game? You didn’t finish your point
@@sidtom2741 atheists do have morals because they are humans, that is my point. Also, chimpanzees which are closer related (supposedly related) to us than many other beasts have no more compassion than your average cat or dog. All animals care about themselves and primarily their young, but humans care not just for that, but also their fellow man. (Altough people are being taught to do otherwise atm)
@@The_Christian_Cavalier nah, but we’ve seen animals care for their species, and also the helplessness of others. It’s not common, but it’s an occurrence. Also, we share most of our DNA, and even similar mutation patterns with chimpanzees and a similar body structure. How could you say we’re not related? But I agree with humans have rationality and reasoning capabilities, which is something fauna lack, and there’s a deeper reason beyond mere evolution. I’m just curious where you get God from that
Being that I'm Christian myself im going try my best to argue from a completely unbiased lens. Assuming that God would be peace, love and forgiveness based on what the Bible says. Why would someone who in their right mind (sane in this case) who would do something as heinous as say rape, murder or be a fckn pedo/child predator? I've heard Christian family members try and tell me that suicide would be unforgiveable because you cant live to ask for forgiveness despite the fact we sin till we die meaning the possibly of you dying without an admittance of a specific sin is high. (We are saved by the blood that jesus chose to shed not our works). But regardless going back to my main point I always thought to myself if someone would do these fucked up things without being clinically proven to be sick in the mind Why would they have it in their heart to even care about forgiveness? Which is why I don't go crazy unhinged and say if a rapist asked for forgiveness that they would be let into heaven because I truly believe someone who would even do that probably doesn't give a damn about forgiveness
Yes.. i agree... they couldn't comprehend the repentance.. they would be praying for their own gains (to get to heaven)--
but God would know this. 🙏
Every religion has their own beliefs about moral values and accountability.
In islam, if someone dies without knowing the truth he won’t be punished for it where as one who knew the truth and rejected will face eternity in hell. Life is a test, this life was meant to test us therefore that’s why we need to understand our purpose and find the truth.
This is pathetic! It's the same "God created these horrible circumstances. God created our sins." Yada yada yada. When is it our fault, Sam? Oh, just the small little things?
This man just keeps turning out to be more arrogant than when I was first introduced to him. I thought he might be someone to listen to, but then he revealed that he's a snake!
Seriously. What is it that he's not willing to let go?
People who subscribe to these kinds of religious ideas concerning reality have made it clear they don’t care about accountability because there’s no accountability for their idea in the first place. Faith lacks accountability. It only exists where there is none. It is superstition.
God and Jesus may respond to this statement by reminding us that accountability is a fundamental aspect of Christianity. The Bible teaches that God is just and will hold all people accountable for their actions, both in this life and in the afterlife. In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus describes the final judgment, where people will be separated into two groups based on their deeds, and will receive either eternal life or eternal punishment. In Romans 2:6-8, Paul writes that God "will repay each person according to what they have done," and that those who persist in doing evil will face wrath and judgment.
Furthermore, faith in God is not a license to do whatever we want without consequences. Rather, it is a call to live in obedience to God's commands and to seek his will in all things. James 2:14-26 teaches that faith without works is dead, and that our actions demonstrate the reality of our faith. In Galatians 5:22-23, Paul describes the fruit of the Spirit, which includes qualities such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. These are the characteristics that should mark the life of a Christian, and they reflect a deep sense of accountability to God and to others.
In short, Christianity affirms the reality of accountability and calls us to live in a way that reflects this truth. While faith in God may go beyond what can be proven by empirical evidence, it is not a superstition that ignores the consequences of our actions. Rather, it is a powerful motivation to live in a way that honors God and seeks to benefit others.
@@XBonecrusherX28 It does, actually. It very much does teach that. The entire belief system is based around an act of vicarious redemption. Everyone’s sins being paid for by a single person. Sins of which people are said to be committed to despite that they were from before they were even born.
So yes, not only does Christianity assert fundamentals of reality with no accountability for what it asserts, but the structure of the belief system itself obviously doesn’t care about accountability or responsibility. It pushes responsibility for something on those that had no part in it(sin), and then it pays for it for others instead of them paying for it themselves(it’s literally the most famous story of the belief).
@OrganicMachine
You would make a fine point about accountability, but it's only a critique on the outside, so it is way off. Outside looking in it does seem as though we get off Scott free by believing in Jesus, but it's actually the opposite. Humans look to blame others naturally they don't want to take accountability, so Jesus comes to remove the eternal consequences by taking accountability for us. However, that doesnt stunt our growth. From Gods perspective He's looking down and seeing humans who always point to others as the cause of their problems or sins, and He comes Down and says ok Its my fault blame me. Jesus says that to the Father. That is the first step to help us realize that we should take accountability for others as He has taken accountability for us. So your wrong. I've seen it my manager was assigning work duties at IHOP and the girls were fighting that they always get the hardest work. I was looking at his face He was so mad, but instead of talking and ordering by his authority for the girls to listen and clean he got up and started to clean. Everybody shut up. I got up and started helping him and all the girls shortly followed. Sometimes all people need is an example and a clean slate. You ll know if you experience it. Hes not just our savior but our role model
@@alejandromagnobarrasa9244 Someone else “taking the accountability” is the opposite of just that. The entirety of what Christianity is based upon is a complete negation of moral accountability. We have all of humanity being held accountable for the actions of two(sin). People believe this is a legitimate imposition of the notion of accountability/responsibility. Despite that they believe this, they then believe that someone else(Jesus) can pay for it.
You have people being held accountable for something they didn’t even exist to take part in, then you have someone else paying for it. It’s utter nonsense. Madness, and completely unnecessary. It’s like a lesson that is the antithesis of moral accountability/responsibility. It’s vicarious redemption, and it’s immoral.
@OrganicMachine
Do you mean to tell me that you believe a parents actions dont effect or influence the actions of the child? Or that the society one lived in cant effect what they did? Why are boys that grow up without a father more likely to commit violent crimes and end up in poverty? Your judging God for things your not even thinking about. That original sin isnt how sin is judged or even spread. Sin spread to all men because all sinned, but it doesnt change the fact that God gave Adam a better chance to never sin than the Chance that normal humans have. He wrecked the world God gave him, and parents who abandon their sons wreck the family God gave them. Nevertheless, Everything was provided for Adam by God He didnt have to work for food or worry about paying rent he lived off the land and owed no one nothing for eating fruit off of a tree. We come into a society of slaves for slaves. You buy a house but you still pay taxes on your own property? Are you still paying taxes on your car or stove or dinner? No it's ridiculous. The world we step into is full of thieves who steal from us and then we begin to steal from others. We do things like no report our income to the government lie on our tax returns and support and apply for welfare. Are you honest on your tax returns about your gas expenditures and do you fully accept that your lying and stealingt? Do you have all your tax receipts? No man no one does they estimate without proof and justify it by saying they are taking too much away from me. Adam didnt have to worry about all that. God could easily come in With Jesus and condemn every lie or every theft or every white lie or every grocery tasting by living a perfect life proving itsnot impossible. Dude it's insane. Absolute Moral accountability leads to death for . Charles Manson could have become a Christian, which absolves him from the Spiritual consequences of His sin, but he still suffered the earthly consequences, so what exactly are you complaining about? God is doing this to make a positive impact on The Ones He Loves and the world Benefits from the sacrifice of Jesus. Do what Jesus did. Travel around enlightening others don't work and stop sinning. For 3.5 years. I guarantee you you wont. If you do God will for sure give you a spot in Heaven. I'm His Son I know how He thinks prove to Him your not just speaking without intentions of doing anything. Your all words judging the actions of your moral superiors. Doctor heal yourself is a stupid proverb. A doctor who is sick can still heal others. One of my former boss used to pay me only 80 hours ofwork evenwhen I worked 120 and all of my bosses never paid me over time. I had less money so when I was short on food sometimes I would go a week only eating two times. I told myself lions only eat twice a day. Would you do that or eat the food at your job? I did both I wrote down everything I ate and paid for it later. And sometimes i just ate without paying for anything. All three are wrong, btw in fact nothing i could do in that situation could be considered right. I report my boss he could lose his business and not be ableto feed his family but he may never do it again. If I steal because he stole from me thenI'm just like him. If I borrow because I dont have even with consent I'm still like him when he pays late, and I give him an excuse to keep paying late. If I say nothing and go without food I dont become like him, but without reporting him, he will continue to do the same to others. Sorry dude but your morality and judgements are flawed because they dont come from well fleshed out ideas as in you havent put into practice what you preach. It's easy to say God did wrong by doing this of course. He says the righteous for the unrighteous and the just for the unjust. How is this good? For Himi it's not, but for me its Everything.
I watched to see Sam Harris destroy the moral argument. I left bitterly disappointed.
I wish he wouldn't drop his voice at the end of each sentence. There's usually some relevant information around there.
Well done Sam . If you help one person escape from their indoctrination you have done more good than most. Just look at the relief of those who thought their way out.
like birds being released from a cage.
He doesnr understand the argument he is answering
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@clintonfreeman7047 you ok there boy?
@George.Andrews. yeah sweet heart. Did I wake you?
@George.Andrews. Are Christians indoctrinated? 😂😂😂😂
He is debunking a strawman
What strawman
@@Jess-TheMess Christianity does not say those unaware of revelation are destined for hell. That's Sam's opening sentence
@@andyfireandair what christianity does say is that genocide is fine, so basicall whatever you wanna say to defend it is shameless
@@AntitheistHuman It seems to me that Jesus would be disgusted, disappointed, furious, deeply grieved etc with genocide
@@andyfireandair Jesus doesn't exist bruh, you do love delusion eh, however, if you want to defend the twisted morality of the bible and of "god" that is your problem but have in mind it is promoded in the bible, and you don't even have to read between the lines to notice how they accept slavery, genocides, discrimination, so yed actually those morals are very selective and if you follow then you could actually do whatever the hell you want without punishmeny because it is the word of "god". Your "god" only lives in your mind and he depends on you, go sleep a bit and wake up to reality, people die everyday every second every hour anywhere in the world, there always people suffering and just person suffering is too much, and that is every day every year since the beginning of life. There is no perfection
I am an ex-hindu who converted to Christianity. However I commend Sam on his concern for hindus! 👏🏻👏🏻 👏🏻 Even Christians fail to see what Sam is seeing from his perspective and how much of a heart it takes to see it that way!
I see a lot of christians claiming his argument is fallacious-strawman-saying it is ignorant of true Christian beliefs, yet haven't debunked his claims with any verse from their mystic book.
We can support his argument with the incident of the thief on the cross who made it to heaven only upon confessing Jesus is lord on the cross.
The bible is very particular about what guarantees access into heaven, which is believing and accepting Jesus as Lord.
So a Hindu who dies not believing or accepting Jesus goes to hell, despite living a somewhat moral life and a thief who has stolen all his life, comes to God on the cross and makes heaven.
How is this argument flawed?
Romans 2:12-16
Before this video i was chiristian.
I still am.
@Anon Ymous you can't know it
@Anon Ymous bro is trying to be smart. I didn't mention any reason...
Bruh at least come up with something original, I've seen this comment like 5 times in this short alone
@Anon Ymous Ok Nostradamus, nobody asked you.
What the hell is a chiristian
There is a dozen of misrepresentatioms
Not really. I know dozens of Christians who unironically believe this exact thing.
In Hinduism there is no mercy for wrong doings. They will be punished according to dharma
he's not talking about hinduism mate, he's debating WLC on how jesus's testament of hell is morally bad
Sam 's argument is so out of line for this reason: He is using his own logical argument in the sense that god does exist, vs what god allows, yet he ignores heaven and hell. If you are using your own logic in an argument vs god, you cannot ignore heaven and hell at the same time. Put heaven and hell which is eternity into perspective, you will begin to see how minimal our time on this earth is compared to eternity
Every knee will bow!
You won’t have knees when you die so good luck.
You misunderstand
Lol that's the argument you have XD
@chipan9191 If you want to continue, please start a new comment thread. I have trouble getting back to where we left off.
As a believer in a higher power (there is ) just don’t know or does anyone if it’s a human. This does have a strong point yet I know there’s something more than just this one reality.
I was a believer before this video
Still am
haha
Me too lol.
The judaeo christian god is at best an egotistical jealous tyrant who enjoys the suffering of the same beings he created. But unironically for the religious folks out there, if the universe and time is truly infinite, then what place is there for a god?
God IS infinite. He is the beginning, the now and the end. He doesn't need a place to exist. He is the place that sustains the universe. He doesn't need a time to exist He is the time. Our minds can't comprehend this so we deny it. And so says The Bible.
Egotistical and jealous tyrant according to what moral standard? You have no justified one.
Where did god create the isolation of the hindus?! Who says that!
Basically everyone in India is raised from birth as Hindu. That's all they know. Christianity to them would sound as believable as Hinduism does to you. Many of them have never even considered Christianity just like you have never considered the fact that Hinduism might be true.
Well according to that rag of irrationality you call the bible, your God created everyone who lived and died prior to the Bible in isolation, and all cultures outside of it's limited regional influence, who never heard of that archaic piece of toilet paper. You see these people were neither known, or taken into account by the superstitious and provincial ignoramuses who fabricated it from their naive imaginations.
Simplistic and yes, it hinges on a lot of Christian’s false interpretation of scriptures.
It has to do with believing God about His Son. Without Faith it's impossible to please God...
He’s so confident being wrong.. I pray he finds salvation in Jesus. We all need the Saviour.
Atheists feel like they're such edgelords
I completely agree
lol.jesus is the god but god is the god but jesus is the son of god looool.what a crazy religion
No, we do not.
How is he wrong?
Jesus is king
I believe the is a difference between the word "ignorance and unacceptance". Hell is the penalty of unacceptance of the revelation not ignorance of the revelation. This is exactly why God could not forgive Satan who was an angel according to the bible because Satan knew the revelation and the way of creation but decided to go against it .
Man, talk about not having any understanding of Christian theology at all.
I mean he’s right, if that serial killer believed in the commandment that Jesus is his son and has faith in the son. I doubt god will break the relationship and condemn you if you will do his will in heaven
how is he wrong? I see some many comments like this but no explanation
@@momsnearu466 He's wrong straight out the gate. God did not engineer the ignorance of the Hindus, nor will He condemn them just for not knowing about Him. This shows me He's tilting at windmills. He's condemning some god hen formulated in his head, but that isn't God. His concern about moral accountability is rooted in his own naturalist understanding of the material world, not any understanding of God.
@@tossaja I replied to the other comment.
@@andreichira7518 thanks. will god condemn me for not believing? i have never had an experience or seen any evidence of him.
Classic strawman.
He destroyed nothing.
Christianity nor William Lane Craig teaches no such thing.
Besides,
why does Sam Harris think that serial killers do not deserve forgiveness. After all, according to Sam's world view, there is no good and bad, no right or wrong, so what is his problem with the serial killer?
Christianity teaches that God knows the heart of hearts. If God choses to save a serial killer, He very well knows why.
You missed the whole point. A serial killer can't be rewarded with eternal bliss. That's not good moral judgment.
You're wrong on Sam's worldview. Typical ignorance from those who proclaim a divine hand in their life. Enough people like you should be enough to convince anyone God is an illusion.
@@DesertedSocrates Is murder wrong? If yes, why? Care to explain as per world view of Sam Harris?
@@vakudibeardefender3953 You want me to do the work for you? Instead of you choosing to educate yourself on a viewpoint you don't understand or agree with? I suppose that's why you are so confident in your ignorance of other people views, a lack of care or follow through.
Sam derives his moral landscape from concepts of empathy, wellbeing, and the evidentiary understanding of the consequences of actions. In short form, when someone says that something is morally good to Sam, that is because it is in line with an action that promotes what we view as the well being of conscious creatures. The goal is human flourishing through understanding the consequences of actions on conscious beings and, as a result of that, murder would be wrong because it is unnecessary and wanton ending of a life, leads to the opposite of flourishing, and is probably the worst thing for well being objectively. Not sure how much of this is debatable other than the silly retort of, why should we care about well being? That's just silly. The nice thing about this system is that any critique of this system that can prove it's superior to this system is, by definition, part of the system. The evidence in its contribution to wellbeing is vital.
There are a few variations of this version of secular morality and I entertain you to compare them with the divine command theory you seem to adopt.
Here's my question for you if you'd please:
IF your god commanded you to kill your loved ones, as Abraham is asked to kill his son, would you do it and is it morally good to do so?
Oh and I'm also unconvinced that serial killers deserve forgiveness by default. That's an absurd position to take.
@@DesertedSocrates The biblical story of Isaac is a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Dr. Brant Pitre has a video on this if you're interested
A problem with secular moral statements is that they are just the subjective opinions of the person making them. For example you might think human flourishing should be maximized and someone else might think all humans should be eliminated to save the planet and the environment and wider ecosystem from human damage. Each moral statement is subjective. There is no objective morality. Only God can place objective moral duties upon us. William Lane Craig has a very accessible video on this concept if you're interested
Why is sending people to hell immoral and why is killing and murder immoral is there is not standard of morality?
@Epicturties Who said there is no standard of morality?
He never read Romans 2:12-16. He should try reading the Bible. There is also a Revelation verse that says the same but i cannot recall the verse at the moment
It says in the Bible that Jesus came to earth not with peace but with a sword
Also near the death of Jesus the one robber (I forgot his name) also close to his death confessed and accepted Jesus in his life BUT this guy thinks that Jesus would just let him go as all atheist do but he did not he said “and now you will die with me”
I'm not religious, but I know that Christians don't believe that serial rapist would go to heaven.
It's not if you die believing in Christ, it's that you lived it, because only through actions can you show it.
Your beliefs are only truly shown when faced with the challenges life throws at you.
Lol Ohhhh yes they do 🤣🤣, especially those "living under grace" Christians, they basically believe that god can forgive anything
That's because you probably don't know a single Christian who believes in the LITERAL word of the Bible and that ALL of the Bible is true. THAT'S a true believer. A true believer is what Harris is describing. I.e. Dr Craig
@@FreezingGrave
Rather than asserting malice, I'll assume that you believe Christians think that lying about repentance is fine. I don't think that lip-service is part of either the literal of figurative interpretation of the bible.
Just because someone says they repent, does not automatically mean they have. It's possible they could have, but unlikely.
Are you aware of sects that assert simply uttering "I'm sorry, I repent" is all that's required to get into heaven? Most that I'm aware of believe that if it's not honest, it would not count, even if the person saying the worst believed them.
But maybe I'm ignorant. What church believes in lip-service to get into heaven? It's news to me.
@@timbozza1678 I appreciate you not asserting Malice. Like I said, a true believer. A true believer is what Harris is describing. Not someone who is faking it. That person isn't in question. One who takes it all like Dr. Craig would.
And you're right. Lip service is not figurative or literal representation of the Bible. That's why it's irrelevant because if it wasn't in the Bible, a true believer would probably adhere to what the Bible says and not what's not in it
i.e. Lip service
@@FreezingGrave
Ok, so it appears your argument is semantic.
You may have a definition of true believer that Christians don't.
But I see your point.
Christians do think that a "true believer" would get into heaven, even if they were a serial rapist. However, I think a person who chose to rape isn't a person likely to become a true believer. My understanding is that it's a high bar, one which requires actions driven by conviction, tested in the face of challenges or temptations life throws, and it's much higher for those who have more to repent for. Also, just because someone says and believes they have transformed their spirit doesn't make it true if they haven't been tested. For example, the person who is caught, convicted, and dies in prison for a heinous crime won't go to heaven, even if they repent, because their transformation was never tested. Same with the person on their deathbed asking for forgiveness.
It's not a simple concept, and because of its abstract nature, to me it's counter intuitive.
Personal transformation of someone's nature is a concept Christians seem to believe. Hence their optimism that a person who once chose to commit heinous acts can become a different person in "spirit", that believes in a path of virtue, and tests themself in life by acting those virtues out. I'm way more pessimistic and think someone changing their nature that drastically is unlikely (likely because I don't spend my time, or derive meaning from, trying to convert folks to a dogmatic belief system). Because of a rapist's ego, I don't believe their character or nature is easy to transform.
That's where I think the confusion lies. Just because a Christian believes a serial rapist can transform their character, repent, become a "true believer", and get into heaven, doesn't mean they will or are likely to, even in the face of Christian optimism and their propensity for forgiveness.
The argument. Goes the opposite way also if some kills like hitler and dies what happens to him with no punishment ? Is death to him him who has cause death of millions ?
Excuse me? Where is your logic? No offense, but you aren't writing clearly. Is English your native language?
Sam is assuming he can see all of time at once and the consequences of every human choice throughout history.
Lol craig completely destroyed all the arguments of sam and he won the debate people just being here like wow atheism!lol atheism Is non sense
Appeal to emotion fallacy.
Is what he said true in your belief system?
I am always astonished that someone so intelligent and such an ardent atheist can have such a poor understanding of Christianity - it’s history, theology and philosophy. Like most of the new atheists when it comes to debating leading Christian philosophers and apologists he is a very good rhetorician but very weak on content
I feel sad for him because he is missing the point! Christianity is not based off what we can do to buy our way into heaven, we aren’t good enough but Jesus paid the price for us all to get into Heaven but some people don’t want the free gift and reject it. If you think ohh o just told a one small lie so I’m good enough vs oh I just abused this person . A liar an abuser! This is why God is soo good! Good news in the gospel! Praying all come into faith.
He isn't missing the point, you are!
IGNORANCE IS NOT BLISS SAM.... the serial killer gets forgiveness by knowing and trusting God through an intimate relationship, not just by crying out without intent as you try to paint it.
Still his point remains.
It would seem then that murder warrants a lesser punishment than unbelief. That does not sound just.
@@inatimialago9745Romans 2:12-16 addresses his nonsense
This argument is a full straw man.
Except it’s not.
@@wysonlegion5398 LOL ok
Wow, a FULL strawman?
Well no, it's not, but go ahead and elaborate, or are you partial to any old load of bollocks claim?
It's a terrible argument, and there is a reason Sam knows he "lost" this debate.
@@TheUberAlec clown alert
This didn't even address the moral argument let alone destroy it. Craig argues that atheism doesn't account for a foundation to objective moral values and duties, and Sam replies by saying "but God isn't moral!" Try addressing the topic next time!
@AnonYmous-yj9ib that's a red herring. Impuning the morality of the God of the Bible only serves to disqualify him as a foundation for morality. It doesn't address the need to ground morality in a personal source.
Also I don't claim o have special access to moral knowledge. Everyone can discern right from wrong for the most part, but that makes it more clear that there is a standard of morality which we come to know rather than create ourselves.
@AnonYmous-yj9ib clearly you don't understand the argument because the argument is in support of classical theism, not Christianity. So yes, it is a red herring because even if granted that Christianity is false, the moral argument still stands unopposed.
Evolution merely provides a means that we came to know moral truths. It does not provide an answer as to what morality is. As a theist, I can be in full agreement that our moral senses came about by evolutionary processes yet believe the truth of morality itself is grounded in God.
@AnonYmous-yj9ib clearly you don't understand because the moral argument is Christianity independent. The moral argument can be sound while Christianity is false.
Evolution can only explain how we came to know moral truths, not the ontology of morality itself. As a theist I can accept our moral beliefs came about by evolutionary development, yet still believe moral truth is grounded in God.
@AnonYmous-yj9ib your use of the Bible as evidence of the moral imperfection of God is judeo Christian specific. It does not apply to any other God.
The objectivity of morality is a premise of the argument, not a conclusion. Keep in mind that Sam Harris does not dispute this premise since he accepts moral realism.
But if you want evidence for it, I would argue it is more reasonable than alternatives. It seems quite evident that torturing children for fun is wrong, irrespective of any opinions or beliefs to the contrary. You may have some complex theory to explain this phenomenon as illusionary, but that seems far less plausible than the plain moral fact itself.
@AnonYmous-yj9ib And your reference for the impunity of god is the bible... So how is that applicable to classical theistic God? The Bible Only references juda christian God, not classical theistic God.
If you're going off of Sam Harris's argument that he made in the video. She is a moral realist, so he actually agrees. There are objective moral values. That is a given for him.
But if you want to take an opposing view and reject the existence of objective moral values and duties, I can merely point out that the objectivity of morality is highly intuitive. It seems quite evident that the idea of torturing little children for fun is objectively wrong irrespective of anyone's opinion or beliefs on the matter. If you want to take a position that such are merely illusory, be my guest. But I would have to say that any complex explanation to explain how such experiences are illusory seem less plausible than the moral fact itself.
Brilliant argument against Christians so called salvation concept
This is one of the most ignorant arguments I’ve ever heard in my LIFE
Why? What's your response?
Why? Makes sense
@@DesertedSocrates Because the argument assumes certain things are bad(that arent bad according to the christian religion I believe), and uses that to undermine the moral argument for a christian God. But he hasnt proven morality exists in his materialistic worldview, or with science at all. And there is no internal contradiction in christianity I think( Im not christian, so I might be wrong) that states that the things sam mentioned as morally wrong things to permit.
@@inatimialago9745 Because the argument assumes certain things are bad(that arent bad according to the christian religion I believe), and uses that to undermine the moral argument for a christian God. But he hasnt proven morality exists in his materialistic worldview, or with science at all. And there is no internal contradiction in christianity I think( Im not christian, so I might be wrong) that states that the things sam mentioned as morally wrong things to permit.
@@Wartensteiin You didn't watch the debate if you think he didn't establish his moral framework while also annihilating "religious morality" as being absurd in its absolutism. What's hilarious is that people who believe their god is the moral arbiter are the ones who have done no work.
Basing your moral and ethical framework on a hypothetical being that hasn't even been demonstrated to be possible isn't the answer to moral or ethical dilemmas.
These people claim to be wise yet they became fools that is not how salvation works.
You can't just confess Jesus Christ and there you go you get into heaven no not at all you must be holy another thing he looks at the heart; ( no murderer will enter the kingdom of heaven
God is a murderer. And a slaver. And he killed children. So...does that mean he can't be in heaven?
I'm not sure if he's actually studied the Bible, but one thing is certain, his view of the human condition is completely skewed. 👀 You can only say something like that about the good news of redemption available to absolutely anybody who repents and believes, if you have the lowest regard for sin and moral accountability, as well as true goodness (not superficial/ wrongly motivated goodness). The truth about the human condition is that:
1. everyone deserves judgement because everyone has committed sins Romans 1:18-32 and Romans 3:9-18 and 2 Timothy 3:1-9
2. salvation is available to everyone, through Jesus Christ, even though God chose one nation to reveal himself through - John 3:16
and Romans 3:22-26
3. God does not show partiality - Romans 2:1-11 and Acts 10:34-43
4. God will judge us according to the knowledge we had on earth John 9:39-41
5. Some people won't find God, because of their free will choice to reject him - Hebrews 11:6, James 4:6-10 and Psalm 10
6. You cannot be a friend of the world and a friend of God. If you are living your best life now, you're heading for hell - 1 John 2:15-17.
Pathological indoctrination.
@@hammalammadingdong6244 It's only indoctrination if you haven't been exposed to other views 👍
@@nix6959 - Unfortunately, many people only get exposed to one view due to circumstances of geography, culture, and parents.
Those Bible verses you cite are nothing more than words on paper.
@@DesGardius-me7gf You sure you want to take that line of argument? Your Constitution is also just words in paper.
I was expecting to hear something very compelling but I didn't.... major fail
Sam repeatedly embarrasses himself with superficial arguments that only impresses those who are ignorant about Christianity.
*Nobody* gets a *free pass* for even the smallest sin in Christianity. What lille Sami forgot is that Christ (God Himself) was voluntarily executed on the cross for the sins of this mass murderer and paid for it in the most horrific execution imaginable.
Dude, I feel no respect at all for religious people nowadays, you are just supporting made up ideas to keep making up more BS ideas about god and bible, not to mention you defend genocide, and killing of those who don't follow your ideas, plus slavery. I am not gonna tell you what you should do but I recommend you to stop living in delusion, arrogant creep
@@AntitheistHuman how do you know those ideas were made up? Did you just made that up?
@@mkurosh you belief there's an old man in the sky who cares about what you do and always sees you even in your intimate moments... yeah that sounds so legit and so logical. Also, your religion likes slavery, genocides, narcissism, you can fool yourself and that's fine, but stop lying at others, that's the downfal of society
@@mkurosh jesus was killed by whom exactly ?
@@optimus3515 By Pontius Pilate, Roman governor of Judaea (26-36 ce) under the emperor Tiberius who presided at the trial of Jesus and gave the order for his crucifixion.
He didn't destroy objective morality, he only affirmed it.
It wasn't about disproving objective morality, in fact he actually believes in something similar to objective morality. The argument was that the christian view of morality being rooted in their belief in christian god doesn't make sense.
No one says that morality comes from belief in God, that's a delusion that atheists believe. Morals come from God.
@@BerishaFatian yeah, you think that morals are rooted in a god you believe. Is that better?
I don't think that morality comes from God because I believe in God. I believe in God because of morality.
@@BerishaFatian i don't get it. What do you mean you believe in god because of morality? I'm struggling to understand that in any way.
Maybe he has a misunderstanding about certain things some consider to be unnatural
ahahahah
So Dumb Sam Harris is implying that objectively God is morally corrupt? Okay 😂 😂 😂 😂
@@AnonYmous-yj9ib evidence of God violating His moral laws?
@br5tw Ummm,how about God teaching us to love all people and follow the Saviors example of love and service and then he tells us he will torture those in fire amd brimestone for infinity for living a finite life of sin. Is that love? Or is it contradiction?
Romans 2:12-16
No you a r totally wrong
Is it not true that in the last moments of your life you can ask for forgiveness and go to paradise or heaven? Is that not what the thief did on the cross?
This might debunk the moral argument from a Christian perspective, but not from an Islamic one.
All of the Hindus who died without previous revelations or the last revelation, the Qur'an, and have not heard about [the truth of] Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, for them shall be no punishment (they will judged by other means).
And for the serial rapist murderer and all that: If he discovers Islam at the end of his life and sincerely converts, he'll go to Paradise since he was sincere and thus regretful of his past actions. If he knows Islam is the truth, goes around raping, murdering etc. and embraces Islam on his deathbed so that all his sins will be forgiven, he will go to hell for his insincerity. What if a Muslim does all these immoral acts and doesn't [sincerely] repent? Hell will be for him as well.
So you get a free ticket to paradise because God created you in a situation where you never heard of the Qur'an? Must be nice
@@BiscuitBoi77 Who says they get to go to Paradise? Most scholars say that they'll be tested in other ways. So no, no free pass to Paradise.
You not only made the message of Islam unnecessary but detrimental to the human race. LOL
Allah was in a pantheon originally and the Quran is contradictory
@@ChrisHall0397
"Everyone on the planet and throughout history (including Einstein, Newton and Darwin) is a monkey, except for me and my fellow few million atheists."
-Christopher J. Hall
Truly an intellectual atheist moment
Roman’s 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. All of us deserve death in Hell. However, God graciously elects christians to salvation through the spreading of the gospel.
We all deserve death in hell? Seriously? Who created us for such conditions
Yes ma'am we do. We were created in perfect then chose, with some help of Satan, to sin against God. Our only hope is in Christ Jesus who lived the perfect life then died on a cross for the sins of the faithful. Then three days later was risen. The only perfect person died so that those who believe will be saved. @@emmanuella2960
When we die.. we end up noting.. 😂
We end up noting “This place is nice” or “This place is horrible.”
oh please such a weak argument
If you accept jesus as your saviour act like you love jesus too. Heaven is attained by christ's followers not hypocrites
Incoherent rant!
@@DennisMSulliva think about it being a Christian is more than accepting God, Satan knows the Bible, Satan knows God exist...
@@jatintharkoti2318 Lucky Satan? He can't very well deny the reality of the god.
What's so bad about hypocrites, anyway? Everybody gives me Pascal's wager. But Pascal himself recognized that some people can't believe. He said they should please the god by going through the motions of piety.
@@DennisMSulliva my comment was not about existence of god but rather Sam's flawed understanding of Christian theology
Did I miss the part where this guy offered an Objective Basis for morality to judge... anything?
God created fried chicken because it's delicious ❤
@chipan9191 Trumps version of the Bible ends with the Apostles Storming Jerusalem to overturn the results of the crucifixion. SNL news update Colin Yost.
Assumes everybody born in India will always be Hindu. Also people that live by the law.. not jewish law then we have the law in our conscience...will be judged by it in the second resurrection. Everyone that doesnt believe in Christ will not be saved by him but hope for mercy on judgment day! Also Jesus promise was resurrection and eternal life. Those deemed not worthy will be burned up and dead forever not tortured forever.
So, just for starters, this doesn’t address the moral argument for God. He’s talking about forgiveness and the grounds for it.
Is that not the basis of Christianity
How can one man be wrong in everything?? Funny!
Instead of arguing against easy to win old religious statements trying to abolish the idea of God in men we should talk about our ways to search God in a modern more educated society. Because God is still there, people feels it and search it for all their life
These "old religious statements" were part of the debated this is taken from. And a lot of the points Sam makes relate to the idea that the belief in god as such is harmful and unavoidably leads to the consequences that are bad for society in general, not that just the old way is bad.
Brutal
Another fool who doesn’t understand that all sin was taken by Christ on the cross because our works can never meet God’s perfection. In 2 Cor. 5:19 we are told what took place for us all. All we need to do is believe it and God will gift us Christ’s perfection as an inheritance for eternity. Without His holiness, no person shall be with God. Blessed God who loves us and made a way for us to be with Him. Amen.
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The perspective is a little bit different in islam religion, the hindu isolation could get a better reward than the killer/rapist who in the end said that they believe in god. The same thing applies with muslims in the name of jihad who killed other people - the people killed could get a better reward than the ones claiming doing jihad. It is not as simple as “i believe in god and we all will be in better place afterlife”
Literally everyone on this comment section have no idea what your seeing here. This is a clip of a 3 hour conversation. And morality is just a comcept humans have. Its about what is or not accepted in YOUR time period. Slavery, murder, forced marriages all were omce "moral" in the past. Today our morality has changed.
Morality is still objective, sorry sam
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That is not bullshit, but still not true. The culture isolation of the Hindus were not there from the beginning, that is like with the evil in the world, it is like darkness. What is darkness? The absence of light. Therefore the isolation in his example was made by going away from god. and generally, why was it bad what the murderer and raper did? Because without a creater, ANY life is meaningless, so why should he not go to heaven if jesus took his sins, and died for them?
False analysis.if you dont believe that's fine but lying about it is the same as lying to yourself as well.
He is self deceived which is the sad part.
What does this have to do with the moral argument?
Jesus death on the cross allowed the opportunity for his example as well as the thief on the cross beside Him.
So? Doesn’t mean he was magic or that god exists.
Alright well I’m a thiest that believes in a higher godlike power. What does this argument have to do with the possible existence of God?
Because the claim that was made by his opponent in this debate is that god can be the only source of objective moral values, and we all feel like objective moral values exist, so the god exists. So Sam was responding to the moral argument for the god's existence.
The goaaaaat
All this is definitely the devil
They spend their time hating Christianity, proving that they are if the enemy
Take him at his word.
Reducto ad absurdum… this is how a straw man is used.
So Hindus and people of all other religions go to heaven then?
Sam Harris doesn't destroy anything. He shows from the very beginning of this clip that he doesn't understand God, how he created people, and how he interacts with them. The very beginning is strawman and then concludes with a simplistic wrong understanding of God. The ignorance and misrepresentation on his part is inexcusable. What should also be clear to people who are open is that his "vision" of God has absolutely nothing to do with how God actually acts. And the person who posted this is also just as ignorant as Sam Harris by his statement "Sam Harris DESTROYS...."
How is anything he said not true?