The scene of her resisting the akuma was SO powerful though. She is the only character who has managed that. I see how people fell in love right then. I think that Thomas miscalculated the power of that moment.
I think he will use it in future tho. Perhaps Marinette finally get Akumatized along several people. Only Adrian (who forced to use Tikki, lmao) and Chloe (because she has enough of Hawkmoth shit) are the last two people left. They are working together and some stuff
cestalia That's a very nice concept, however I doubt anything like that will happen considering, to Astruc, Marinette can do no wrong and all her mistakes are "normal" for her age.
@@rojadita What Marinette did is NORMAL. Do you forget she is teenager that suddenly being poured responsibility??? It's like expecting teenager to have part time job as a head of company which shoulder hundred of employees. Do you think it will be smooth ride?? If I was her, I threw my damn miraculous. 🙄 She makes mistakes understandable, she's like 14-16. She can't even act straight in front of her crush, of course she can't keep up with all the heroes job. Do people think when they watch the show? When I was 14, I was busy drawing, not saving the city
I think Thomas just doesn’t like changing his characters and clings to the status quo, and some other writer tried to give the characters progression during season 2. Thomas tightened his grip in season 3 and that’s why he’s defending season 3 so much - he’s upset that people appreciate the changes someone else made to his show.
"Chloe will always be bad" 1) Protects Sabrina from akumas when Lila gets Marinette expelled. 2) Fights off Hawkmoths Akuma. 3) When fight Mynura said that she will always stand by ladybug because she believes in her. "It's too dangerous since everyone knows her identity." Didn't Marinette pull Kagami in the fight second to the last episode even though it was too dangerous because she and Adrien were getting too close...?
4) was one of the few that believed mari didn't steal from Lila 5) was willing to change so her and adrien would stay friends 6) saves rose 7) saves lb
@@emmawilliams8878 even though in season 1 she rips Rose's letter in front of her, locked Juleka in a bathroom, nearly got the entire class arrested, got Sabrina's dad fired, mocked Nathaniel, made fun of Alix as well as her family, bullied Marinette for 4+ years, smothers Adrien 24/7 even though he clearly doesn't like it, sexually assaults Adrien daily, can't even buy him a gift without forcing Sabrina to do it, unfriended Sabrina over a mistake, unfairly got Alya expelled, rejected Kim in the harshest way before sending pics to everyone and I can go on. You can't ignore her 4+ years of being a bully in season 1, just because her mom is an entilted womanchild, especially when Chloe had her dad yet treated him like dirt.
@@michaelfireheart8300 those points are to show that there’s good in Chloe and that she doesn’t always have pure bad intentions. Literally nobody said she’s innocent, so I’m not sure why you brought these things up when everyone is well aware that she’s done bad things.
@@gio4931 really? Is that why you don't bring these up at all? Oh that's right as it destroys your whole she has good in her narrative that relies on her mother to take the blame for all of her actions.
I would not mind Chloe as a gray area villain however I will say that I only wanted her to have a redemption ark cause ever since I was a little kid and avatar ended I've never seen anyone like silo that started as a villain and later becomes good . you don't even need Chloe to stay good she can still be mean and help the bad team just cause shes in a gray area . my one problem with this whole thing is the creator of the show slightly feeding the message "people never change " and that actually hurts me cause I know people that have changed to be who they are today so hearing him say that makes me see him that he just sees the world in black amd white and nothing else
But it’s the truth: some people never change. A lot of y’all need to accept that people like Chloe can never change unless they want to change for themselves. That’s reality. If the writer did want y’all wanted, then it would have sent a message that people like Chloe don’t need to face the consequences of their actions because all they need is to have a sad backstory for people to pity them, which is what a lot of y’all are doing to Chloe. From seasons 1 to 3, Chloe has made it very clear that she doesn’t care about saving people unless she wants to impress people and ladybug. Of course, there were exceptions. However, Chloe needs to be held accountable for actions and suffer (not that much) the consequences of her actions. She put so many innocent peoples lives in danger just because ladybug refused to give her a miraculous. Ladybug even explained why she could no longer give it to her, but Chloe refused to listen. Frankly, it seems like some of y’all keep defending Chloe because y’all see a part of yourselves in her or something like that.
@@k.d3983 But she won't have to face consequences of her actions though. She isn't going to get arrested, kicked out of school or even grounded. Pehaps because her father has influence but probably because the writers couldn't be bothered and are in love with the status Quo. Not being able to have a miraculous anymore is not a punishment since it was never hers in the first place. If anything it teaches a lesson that you can get away with terrorism and deprives as off plotlines where her suffering consequences is relevant. Not that I think teaching lessons is a good indicator of the quality of the show. Children are people too and so they want to be entertained, not moralised and trying to teach a lesson that a lot of the viewers disagree with is shooting yourself in the foot which admittedly I don't know if that's the case here since I don't know what's the most popular opinion on the matter. And if someone on the show is lying it is always obvious as fuck and Chloe is too dumb to be a good liar anyway. If she is irredimable the writters should have either put hints that her slight improvement is not genuine or have her attitude towards people changing for the worst be as gradual as it was the other way around. And I'm not talking about her opinion of Ladybug, that was gradual and had a reason behind it, I mean that in season 3 she was as much of a bitch to people as in season 1. Bitchiness is on a spectrum but the writers clearly didn't care at that point even though they clearly cared back in season 2. I'm mostly talking about Stormy Weather 2.0 because most inconsistencies in Chloe's character can be explained by the episodes not being in chronological order but this one we have the general idea where on the timeline it falls. Aloso she was angry that her parents stopped arguing which is in contradiction with what was shown before. Regardless what the writting staff might think this cannot be explained by her being evil because evil people also have things and people they care about, that is what makes them human. Chloe still caring about her parents wouldn't be an indication of her being a good person but that she has some semblance of depth and the writters took it away even if it makes no sense just to flex how evil she is.
1:24 I personally feel like that's a lazy argument on the part of the writers. Multiple episodes showed Chloe had a great amount of depth to her, way more than any other character in the series. Yeah she's a bully, but we see it stems from a broken home and a mother who treats her like crap. Being a hero brought out the best in her and showed there was more to her. But because the writer of this series seems to hate her, any development is handwaved away.
@Marinette Because just because a writer has plans doesn't automatically make them good. Some times you need a second opinion on something to improve it. If everything did everything after the first draft, there would be no progress.
Marinette Exactly. Thomas is showing us that people can’t change unless they want to change for themselves and for the right reasons. Someone said this best: redeeming a bully without letting them learn from their mistakes and being held accountable for them is showing that it’s okay for them to get away with the harm they’ve caused to people. Also, Chloe did NOT come from a broken home. Yes, her mother neglected her. But, she had a father who loved her and gave her everything she wanted because he wanted her to be happy. She had a roof over her head, didn’t have to worry about food, etc. And, even if she did come from a broken home or whatever sad past she had, that doesn’t excuse her actions at all. So what if she did “good”? She mainly did it to impress ladybug, and she hasn’t learned from her actions at all. There are people who are just like Chloe in real life. Hell, even some of my former bullies were like Chloe, and somewhat like Lila. I saw a few of them changed for the better, but some of them were still horrible assholes. Overall, I get the vibe that some of chloe fans are legit like Chloe in their own way. Or, they just want to see another Zuko redemption arc.
The Fan Without a Face So? If someone gives you unwanted criticism of your unfinished work, are you going to listen to them despite telling them that you know what you’re doing? He’s not obligated to listen to “fans” who keep telling him what he should do with HIS story. And, that’s a huge issue that a lot of y’all don’t understand. Y’all have no right to dictate how his story should go just because y’all don’t like the direction of the story. He’s even stated that his show is aimed for kids, so why are grown ass adults and teenagers who are in their late teens getting upset that he’s not catering a show to y’all’s needs?
But it’s the truth: some people never change. A lot of y’all need to accept that people like Chloe can never change unless they want to change for themselves. That’s reality. If the writer did want y’all wanted, then it would have sent a message that people like Chloe don’t need to face the consequences of their actions because all they need is to have a sad backstory for people to pity them, which is what a lot of y’all are doing to Chloe. From seasons 1 to 3, Chloe has made it very clear that she doesn’t care about saving people unless she wants to impress people and ladybug. Of course, there were exceptions. However, Chloe needs to be held accountable for actions and suffer (not that much) the consequences of her actions. She put so many innocent peoples lives in danger just because ladybug refused to give her a miraculous. Ladybug even explained why she could no longer give it to her, but Chloe refused to listen. Frankly, it seems like some of y’all keep defending Chloe because y’all see a part of yourselves in her or something like that.
Pfft, just because someone had tragic backstory doesn't mean their action justify. This is like saying Yuno Gasai had development when she's a batshit insane girl just because of her bad childhood.
If chloe is so evil according to thomas... then how come she looks up to ladybug. That means that she still believes there is good in her and looks up to ladybug to help herself find it, also I never heard the thing because it is 3 am and I cant wake up any one
If Chloe is so evil, then don’t show the fact that she has a narcissistic mother and a dangerously passive father. That will only make your audience sympathize with her even more
From how Thomas responds to people on twitter about Chloe and her being "irredeemable" at 14, it seems like he's projecting a bit of his hatred towards someone that affected him at a younger age onto the character.
In my opinion I like chole and would be fine if she was a hero, but her as an antihero seems more interesting because if she got the bee miraculous she would hopefully not reveal herself and make it harder for them to figure out who she was which would be a good side plot for the show to focus on occasionally mabey even adding a little more plot and continuity to the show which a lot of the fandom would like.
Moiz Vaghjipurwala You don’t know that for sure lmao. Yeah for some episodes she probably will be a villain, but maybe she could get another chance for a redemption
I agree, I don´t think that most people had such a deep reaction to the finale making her "bad", but to it making her look plain and mentally "weak". It is true that her perceived redemption arc could not be redemption, but she did become stronger, mentally. She rejected hawkmoth! She resisted an akuma! And sudenly, it takes someone to go to her and "tempt" her, and she wants to be a puppet under a "looser"? If she had taken matters in her own hands, decided to do anything to get her powers back (as she does) and hunt him down to steal his miraculpus/the bee/ track down the miraculpus box/ladybug/whatever? Well, that would have been so different!
I thought so too. Maybe when she transforms, she'll have a much more different design and maybe a different name too (if she has the miraculous ofc or a different one). And maybe she's a silent anti hero too, considering how loud mouthed she is it'll be less noticeable to see her as Chloe.
I'd love to see Chloe get her hands on a different miraculous and then be a hero that helps LB and CN but never interacts with them otherwise. Then, she could start/finish (your preference) her redemption and have a new look so people don't know it's her.
One of the most evil acts Ladybug has ever done in this show has been done to Chloe in my opinion. When it came time to choose a ally the universe was telling her to choose Queen bee. But she didn't do that. Did she choose the turtle no. The fox no. The snake no. The horse no. Heck did she pick the monkey?! No. She choose the dragon. Why? Was she the closest? No the bee was for sure the closet to the Akuma. Was it because Chloe revealed her secret identity? That would be a explanation save for the fact that the dragon's identity was also know to Hawkmoth. No the only reason why Kagami was chosen over Chloe was because Kagami was having a date with Adrien at the time. She put her own wants and desires over the betterment of the universe and those around her. The Spiderman line {With great power comes great responsibility.} Ladybug has shown she is not yet ready for the responsibility for choosing for the Bee Miraculous.
Exactly. That was so selfish and evil of Marinette to use her powers for her own selfish reasons and even let down Chloe who always looked up to her and wanted to do better because Ladybug was her favorite hero. She literally admired and was inspired by her and was grateful to be a hero right alongside her. Yet Ladybug chose to be selfish and give the miraculous to kagami just because she was on a date with Adrien meanwhile Chloe's parents were the ones akumatized
Marinette was wrong for choosing Kagami for selfish reasons, but she wasn't wrong for not choosing Chloe. I think ya'll Chloe stans forget that the last time the Bee Miraculous was being given to Chloe, it was a trap by Mayura because they'd been watching Chloe. And oh look, in part one of Miracle Queen, Mayura was there again, WAITING. She even almost escaped with the Bee Miraculous in Miraculer. So no, Marinette is not evil for not giving Chloe the Bee. Chloe is NOT entitled to a miraculous just because it was her parents akumatized, or for any other reason. That's dumb. It's also dumb to rag on Marinette for making a selfish, yes, but SAFER CHOICE. Kagami was the safer choice despite her identity being exposed to Hawk Moth, and as it turns out, it was the best choice to have the Dragon out in order to face Miracle Queen. How can anyone forget that Marinette was trying to LEAVE Kagami and Adrien but they insisted she come. You're talking as if she was trying to ruin their date the entire time, but she wasn't. It wasn't even a date at all. It was a gathering of friends until Marinette left, and it was still a gathering of friends after she left. There was no decision between Adrien and Kagami that it was a date either. And while it was a selfish decision, it was the right one for numerous reasons. One, Kagami was the safer choice, two, the akuma was going after couples and people in love, and three, unknown to her, it allowed Adrien to get away and transform instead of possibly being targeted. It's Chloe's fault for getting upset about not being chosen despite the fact that Ladybug had already told her WHY she couldn't be Queen Bee again. It just was not safe for Chloe to have a miraculous. PERIOD. And how is it that you can call Ladybug evil for not giving Chloe the Bee Miraculous, but you say NOTHING about the evil acts that Chloe has done with the Bee, like I don't know, stinging a train operator and risking the lives of hundreds of people on the train just for glory. Smarty Pants is right, Chloe never had the heart to be a hero, she just wanted all the clout and glory of being one. Her character wasn't ruined, she had small specks of humanity in the vast sludge of evil and elitist brattiness that was her entire character. It's not like she was actually changing for the better and was actively being good. She wasn't. She was still being a jerk to everyone and even used her (supposed) status as a hero to demean others and make herself look superior. Marinette didn't put her own wants and desires over the betterment of the universe and those around her. Chloe did that when she was pissed that she didn't get the Bee Miraculous like she wanted and joined Hawk Moth. The universe didn't tell Marinette a damn thing about choosing the Bee, it was her judgement and hers alone. Stop making up head canons and using them as facts. There was nothing mystical about her choosing an ally. Her judgement with the Bee actually saved them. Without the Dragon Hawk Moth would have won. They lost their allies, but that doesn't mean they can't choose more. You put a lot of blame on Marinette about her choice but you certainly don't give Chloe any flak for her decision to choose Hawk Moth. She chose to be a villain of her own free will. It's not like she was being akumatized at the time. She was just angry and Hawk Moth gave her a choice. Instead of being a hero and turning on Hawk Moth when she got the Bee or telling him no, she decided to spit in the world's face by helping a magical terrorist. Instead of putting Stan over Logic, use your brain and actually watch the episodes. I can easily call out Marinette for her mistakes and bad decisions but apparently you can't. Stop worshiping Chloe and look at the facts.
Ladybug decided she isn't trustworthy enough? Ahhahaha! No, she decided she choses Kagami instead because the girl got too close to Adrien. Giving how it was Chloe 's parents who got akumatized and how hard she tried to be reliable for Ladybug only to still be rejected, I personally see her having every right to reject all she learned and stick to hawk moth, it's not as if he even killed anyone through all those seasons. This also makes sense for Mari's character as her willing to break someone's day or steal yet another phone to not let Adrien know about her love nor let him go is constantly shown as one of her major flaws. Thus said, Venom status for Chloe is a great idea, though I can still see her redeemable qualities.
THANK YOU for finally mentioning this. It's like we get it, Chloe was a bully and people sometimes don't change but it wasn't all on her. Ladybug personally used her powers out of emotions and jealousy to do what she wanted to do ALL THE TIME and even chose Kagami (whose identity was already revealed as well) just so she wouldn't kiss Adrien even though these were Chloe's parents that were akumatized. It was literally a slap in the face to Chloe. She had all this potential because she looked up to Ladybug and Ladybug is the one that let her down the whole time.
I think one other way for her to still become a hero is first, for ladybug to apologize, and second, she Chloe doesn't accept it, she will be put into some sort of a "hurt innocent people" situation by Hawk Moth and will refuse not because she wants to pop off but because it's wrong, proving she is actually a good person and getting her miraculous for independent usage by Mari. But again, grey villain sounds good too.
It’s Ri listen, you,me or any other person can’t say that no one can makes mistakes, ladybug in my opinion did a mistake in miracle queen, but nobody is perfect like imagine the feeling of having a lot of responsibilities, protecting people, doing everything in the right way, and dealing with her trouble love story, when she broke down in love eater I realised the her job is harder than I thought, so I don’t blame her for choosing kagami over Chloe since she is and will always be a teenager girl, I think authors should explain more of Chloe, Marinette and adrien character developments
It’s Ri also, cat noir job is hard, and he have a hard life, and both they do mistakes some times, like I think he only is dating kagami because he is tired of not getting attention or because she is similar to ladybug, in another way he is playing with her feelings, that my opinion tho, since he also isn’t mature and teenager I can’t blame him too
Ladybug definitely makes bad choices a lot but I hope that she learns from the mistakes she is making and the writers don’t just pretend that she is perfect and has no flaws
??? I don't agree with this. Zuko from Last Airbender betrayed his uncle at the end of season 2. However, Ladybug isn't as well written. You can have someone completely throw away their redemption but the temptation has to be believable.
I disagree because chloe only relly tried to change for ladybug not herself and thats not great. But i understand her kinda being annoyed by ladybug but she desrvers a better redemption and is my favourite character on the show
It's not about wether Chloe should or shouldn't have a redemption arc. It's about the fact that the writers were giving her one and then backtracked. If their intention was to make her irredimable they should have made it clearer or, you know, at least drop hints she is. If so many people thought she was having a redemption and it wasn't the writers' intention that speaks of their incomletence not the viewers "overinterpreting" stuff. It seems to me that different writers had different ideas for her character and some were giving her a redemption arc and then Astruc came and said "don't do that" which is why she suddenly acts worse in season three. Her being an Anti-hero isn't a bad idea but I doubt the writers are going to go with that and again her cut short redemption arc is getting in the way. Having her be an anti-hero in a way that she would be purely self-centered would be retconning her development and would mean the viewers wasted their time watching the Queen Bee trilogy. Now no matter what the writers do it is either going to contradict something else or would look like them playing ping-pong with their plotlines a ball. Also the season three finale inevitably will cause a plot contravance because Chloe getting akumatised on purpose should get her arrested or sent to whatever the place for underage criminals is called in english but she won't because status Quo is king.
Marinette Nah people wanted her redemption for what they saw on the show, not fanfic. If creators really wanted to make her irredeemable, they should’ve done that way better. You just blind yourself from the trash development the show has
I totally agree. They managed badly her arc, thats why so many people were disapointed. It would have been so intresting to see a season were chloe starts as a hero but slowly desends to darkness. Like, she could have been a vigilante. She could have gone all out on akumatized people, she could be angry at Ladybugs failures and point them out throughout the season, she could step out of the line to achive her duty, and it could have pushed her to be a full blown villian by the end. But nope, she gets angry once and decides to go to the bad side even if she was rooting for being called by ladybug as a hero a few moments ago. Because what are motivations?
@Marinette (Know that if you respond to this, I likely won't see it for a while because of fucked up comment notifications) I absolutely DESPISE Chloe but I despise terrible writing more. I read ZERO fanfics or theories of any kind and I still started to sympathize with Chloe because of my own situation and the comparisons I saw between her and Catra (basically only shitty parental figures but that's not the point). You don't tell the audience why a character has personal justifications for their actions unless you want the audience to want them to be redeemed in the future. That's why people have a problem with Marinette and her behavior. She's already a good guy so her mistakes, selfishness, and meanness weigh a lot heavier, even if it's not as bad as Chloe (which is why people oft point out that Marinette's caused her fair share of akumas even though they acknowledge Chloe has caused most of the show's).
You may not have read any fan theories riere , but you probably have seen bully characters get redeemed before more then likely peppered your expectations with chole. The fact think having a "justifiable" reason for being antagonistic is telling enough.
First of all, you deserve a LOT more subscribers, secondly I honestly think that a Chloe should be a hero but I also don’t have any qualms with her being both a hero AND a villain. Good video man. Keep up the good work. Are you going to make a video on a theory or theories maybe about the Shanghai and New York specials?
Same but I feel like it won't be as redeeming unless she has a super big redemption arc but I feel like after the season 3 finale it will be hard for the fandom to accept her as a good character again which is sad because I liked Chloe when she wasn't a villain.
I still hope one day she will emd up in a tough situation because of hawk moth and chose human lives against her egoism or powers. And well, it's not like Thomas is the one who writes the plot, right?
Chloe is literally the best character. She was evil, got a redemption and struggled. Thomas literally ruined the only character that made sense. The only other characters that really developed are Adrien and Kagami, although not as much as Chloe and Marinette got worse.
No, no, no. What you don't get is the fact that Chloe didn't do it out of goodwill, but because she will be rewarded for it and want to impress ladybug. You can't make a characteristic redemption build on that base because it means, she never change. The point of S3 is to prove that Chloe will be less dependent on Ladybug and realized she needs to do good thing because it's the right thing to do, not because fame or miraculous
@@semolinalibra And it still didn't justify her action. Are you going to forget what she's done for the recognition? She creates havoc. Sure Ladybug disappoints her, but she also makes a mess (again, not that justify). We know Chloe now feel upset for both side, Ladybug who ignored her and Hawkmoth who used her. This inner conflict makes a good development. I honestly believe we're still in her redemption arc. I'm not going to judge anything until S4 comes out tho. S3 actually a good built up for character development.
I really like your take on what the show should do for her character. Having her her become a grey character I think would be a really good idea. Either that or getting a proper redemption arc later. This might just be her down spot before she properly realises what is good and bad and becomes a true hero. Either way I don’t think she should remain a boring villain when the other two options seem so much more interesting.
Thomas was talking about how “Chloe is bad and isn’t deserving of a miraculous or redemption arc” and just hating on her in general Meanwhile, we have Marinette: Using her powers for personal use Stealing people’s phones Breaking into Adrian’s houses Made a whole schedule of Adrian’s routine And basically acting stalker-ish/creepy about him And the list could go on and on Edit: Also forgot to mention that Marinette acts like she’s the only girl Adrian can talk to/give attention to. Like in the animation movie episode, if I remember correctly, she willingly joined in on Chloé’s plan to get Kagami away from Adrian. Chloé kinda gets a pass cause it’s, y’know Chloé, but Marinette is the supposed “hero” who we’re suppose to be rooting for. Adrian is his own person and can act on his own. Edit 2: Happy 2022 everyone! I completely forgot about this comment I left on my mom’s account lmao- Anyways, I watched the newer Miraculous episodes and Marinette STILL hasn’t gotten better. In my opinion, she got even worse :/ This entire show is wasted potential at its finest tbh🚶♀️
Kitten Love she was heartbroken, wanted to prove herself to ladybug and wanted to be queen bee. Thus she was the perfect victim for Hawkmoth. But I do get what you are trying to say.
Bc thomas hated her and says she will always be “evil” to him which is a terrible to teach to kids which is what he says the show is directed to, that if people tell you the way your acting is unacceptable you shouldnt change because thats just who you are people should just hate you even if its something that stems off of family life its so sad that he has this mentality when yes there are a lot of adults and teens watching this show but lots of kids do too. Its a bad lesson and i hope he changes his mind and lets her have the redemption she deserves. I know shes just a cartoon character but she deserves to see her mistakes and learn and grow from them
Personally, I feel like Marinette is portrayed as this hero who's always right in the end...when she really ISN'T. Everyone around her in the series supports her stalker-like, controlling behaviour towards Adrien, when in real life, that WOULDN'T be acceptable. To be honest, Astruc made it so that Adrien's more like a toy to be tossed around by Chloe, Marinette, and Kagami--not an actually deep character with feelings and potential to make his own choices. Chloe's one of the deepest characters in Miraculous, in my opinion--she had every right to be mad! Seeing ladybug pick Kagami, one of her rivals, over her, when her own parents were akumatized, must've felt like a huge slap in the face. Even more, as she looked up to Ladybug. The writers shouldn't portray Marinette as this always-right, pure person who's intentions are always good. She lets her emotions get to her, and uses her powers repeatedly for her own selfish uses. Please don't come at me with arguments such as "everybody makes mistakes", and "she's only 14" because she never LEARNS from them. 14 is a very aware age, and mistakes are expected to be learning experiences. In the show, Marinette makes a mistake (most likely stalking Adrien, getting jealous of Kagami, etc.), may or may not realize it, who knows, but then the writers make up for it by making her save the city. In real life, this kind of repetitive behavior...wouldn't get you very far in life. Marinette's character is just sending a bad message to easily-influenced little children.
Not related or anything but, I think that Chloe is just protective of Adrien and not actually in love with him. Since he was the one who was there for her ever since they were children
@@rrp1341 yeah it just sucks because shes really just a victim of bad/neglectful parenting and the fact that they even built in the clear path of character development only to rip it out from under her feet for no reason was not great imo
@@wvan1174 I believe it was the other writers pushing Chloe's development but Thomas hated Chloe and was jealous about the rest of the team's involvement with the story, and thats how season 3 ended as he wanted it.
I really don’t like they way the show is portraying Chloe. In all honestly, Marinette is the real bad one here. She is SUPER selfish and has not changed AT ALL! It’s been three damn seasons. In Miracle Queen, the only reasom why Marinette didn’t choose Chloe was because she was so jealous of Kagami. Kagami is was on a date with Adrien and Marinette got jealous and chose to separate them. Chloe was the perfect ally. Her parents were akumatized and her power would of helped tremendously. But no, she decided to be selfish and take care of her own feelings rather than the safety of the city. Astruct praises Marinette too much and defends her actions a lot. I dont care if shes 14 or whatever. In those three seasons, she could have at least changed. It legit took the last episode of season 3 for her to realize it was time for her to move on and not be a creep. So everything that happened to Chloe was so unfair! And she was right to be angry at the end. Again, Marinette is the one at fault.
The reason why Marinette decided to use Kagami is because Marinette didn’t want Kagami and Adrien to be ate by LoveEater. Although, I do agree with the other points.
I 100% agree but Marinette didn’t choose Chloe because hawkmoth knows who she is. She said so in Miraculer. But yeah, Marinette is a villain in disguise
I disagree, Chloe made it pretty clear in Malediktator that she didnt want to be a hero to get clout and show off, but rather showing off and getting clout was her only reference point for how a person could get respect. Her mother who she seems to respect above everyone else doesnt even know her name. Her father only ever tries to buy her off all the time. Adrien seems to see the good in her and knows shes misguided, and I think being Queen Bee was a positive way for her to gain the love and acceptance she doesnt get from her family. Consider this: why does Chloe love Ladybug so much? I believe its because Ladybug saves and forgives everyone no matter how badly they act while akumatized. She wants someone who can understand that she doesnt really want to be mean, she just doesnt know how to change her track now that everyone already hates her from trying to imitate her mothers attitude. Everytime Ladybug snubs her, she seems genuinely destroyed by it and nearly always breaks down to tears. And when she was first given the Bee Miraculous in Malediktator, she hesitated before taking it and looked to Ladybug for reassurance, only taking it after she nods. Chloe is a character who desperately wants to be needed and useful because she feels worthless but doesnt know how to do it in a healthy way, and when Ladybug abandoned her she went to the only other person who seemed to need her, and even that I believe was mostly out of one of her famous overreactions where she lashes out at the people who hurt her. And even afterwards, she doesnt swear revenge on Ladybug like Lila, instead she says she wants to take the Bee Miraculous and continue being a hero, and then doesnt resist when Ladybug says she cant let her do that, and then runs off looking destroyed (check her face in that scene when she runs by). She still wants to be a good person. All of that is to say nothing of the fact that shes the only person to ever resist being Akumatized, something neither Adrien nor Marinette were able to do (Marinette didnt even resist) and also rejected the first time she was offered the Bee Miraculous by the evil side, showing that she *doesnt* just want to be Queen Bee, she wants to be a *Hero*.
I do think her redemption arc should have been very drawn out, starting with her as essentially a conflicted anti hero and eventually learning to be a real hero both in and out of costume. They were already starting on this, with her doing things that were technically "nice" but in mean ways, like not telling Adrien after discovering Marinettes crush on him but phrasing it in a mean way. It would have been quite interesting for her to learn over time that there are other ways to get respect that dont require a costume, and slowly changing her civilian ways as well. Maybe even Sabrina could get a Miraculous too and their relationship dynamic could change.
Even when rewatching season 2 i kinda felt with the episode despair bear that Chloe only had the party to get back on adrian good books and did try and be nice but wanted to do it to show Adarin she was the good guy even with the end of Malediktator giving chloe a party would never change her right away as sometimes people change when they see what they did was wrong or realize what they did was wrong who sometimes cant see the error of their actions
@@fightingmedialounge519 I think the distinction is that she cares about clout because she has never been given any other form of love. This is less evil than say, the stereotypical "wanting clout for power" or "wanting clout to be able to use it" because her motive is not inherently bad. She can grow to seek love in healthier ways, whereas a character who wants clout for power would likely abuse their power no matter what way they obtained it.
I believe that Chloe can still have an excellent redemption arc and that it could be very similar to Zuko's redemption arc. She was first the "bad guy" or Marinette's antagonists, but we saw that Chloe did have good in her from the many episodes in the second season. Then she slowly becomes a better person but then, is giving the chance to have everything she ever wanted(being a miraculous holder) and goes to the side of evil, just like Zuko in the second season's finale. If done right, she could learn that her ways are wrong( which could be done with her leaving Paris for some time and Thomas giving her an episode or two of her journey outside of Paris OR it could be done with Chloe changing schools but still in Paris so she could see how her actions have grave consequences on her and others. Through this, she could become a better person with morals and maybe even a hero. But I do like your anti-hero theory tho.
The legend of Aang was ART, a wonderfull show that will always be remember and loved by the fans. Ladybug is a wanna be show, that treats kids like idiots and with a terrible writting... There is no compare, which is a shame, cause I adore your idea.
I really wish y’all stop comparing chloe to Zuko. Zuko is Zuko and Chloe is not him. I don’t think that Thomas would do what y’all said because he’s giving us a different side of people not wanting to change.
Rachel Marie Cabera Pacheco Your attitude is disgusting. Avatar should not be used to drag other writers. Thomas has a point when he said that kids understood the show better than some adults. ☕️
@@k.d3983 You know what? Okay, I am sorry, I did not mean to use Avatar for that, but again, there is no comapre, Avatar is a great show, with Ladybug, I think kids are smarter than people give them credict to. Call me nasty, but not for nothign the fan base fo the show decresed and again, if Thomas wnated her as a full vilian, he coudl have leave her like that, instead of her background and she slowly learnign of her mistakes, and if we comapre her to Lila...again, I didn't ask Chloe to be a super good girl, it just that even Thomas said she was going to be a Frienemie of the protagonist, yet he even backoff from his own words...Again, the show is kidn of bland and an antihero like Chloe would bring some spicy in the show...(or again, he could have focus on make better the other heros, Nino and Alya, what are their thougths of them being heros)... I was a fan of this show, a guilty pleasure, but I eventually got annoyed and no longer followed the show...
Chloe was honestly a really interesting character but her character arc was ruined by the season 3 finale, she understood that she couldn’t be queen bee by the end of miraculer and was the first character to resist an akuma
The show began to show that Chloe wanted to be important. She felt useless and just wanted to mean something to someone. Her mother is an absolute bratty rich fashion designer and her father is a pushover corrupt politician. It made sense to see her as the teenager lashing out because of the inherent parental issues. A redemption arch made sense... but then Marinette had the wonderful idea of making Chloe hate her again just to put her with her horrible woman of a mother... WHAT!?!? Marinette fed the demon of a character instead of bringing out the light like she normally does. That was ridiculous for me and showed me that Thomas Astruc is not a very good writer. (Not to mention the terrible episode listing and the inconsistencies in characters.) Thats some of my two cents anyway
This! I can get why she sided with Moth but I can also see she doesn't actually care about feelings of the people around her yet. When she will state it clearly she understand that and choses to help instead of hurt, then she will deserve the Bee. As for now she's still basically throwing a tantrum despite having a very good reason to do so when her parents got akumatized.
Finally, someone who got the point! Yes, this whole time Chloe always expecting something, she doesn't do it out of goodwill. She needs to realise that being good doesn't need reward
@@Saturnthroughstars I think it something along line "She didn't change because she didn't want". Also, it can probably mean she remains brat, but a rather good brat. Chloe becomes a goody kid probably is bad writing. Can be interpreted in many way. I'm honestly not sure where that even come from
Well I really want Chloe to develop to a good person. It really is boring and empty to have her just always be the villain and whenever we think she is changing to the better she ends up becoming worse. Whenever I start having hope that Chloe will change, she just escalates to the worst. The writers AND Thomas astruc should defenitely consider this and think about it, don't we already have too much villains?, Also, I am really surprised of how underrated this channel is! It deserves more subs.
@Marinette you know...you are practically in every miraculous comment section I've seen; and in each one you're always disputing with someone who's critiquing the show. I understand loving something and not wanting "negativity" surrounding it but is it really necessary to always be combating people on their opinions? Honestly, at this point it's making you look obsessive. And that isn't a good look. A creator should be allowed to do what they want with their property, but people still have a right to speak about it and have their opinions. Just as how you feel their is nothing wrong, others may not see that as so.
In my opinion, they wasted a good redemption arc and an opportunity for character development. Tbh I wouldn't even care if Chloe was a gray morality character. What doesnt make sense is for her to turn into a black/white villain since we spent an ENTIRE SEASON showing how Chloe isnt plain evil and introducing a REAL evil person (Lila).
Personally, I would like some form of redemption for Chloe. I mean she doesn't have to become wholly good. I agree with Thomas that Chloe's whole stint as Queen Bee was a way for her to get recognition, but at the same time, I don't think she is entirely bad. If I recall, Thomas said none of the people on Miraculous are really evil, but have reasons for the bad things they do. Not sure if that is accurate though. I do like your idea of her becoming a gray character
Nah, Thomas has reportedly very clearly stated that "Chloe is evil no matter what and doesn't deserve to be redeemed." Edit: He claimed this via Twitter.
2:05 except we see in other episodes Chloe is capable of remorse, she does care and her negative attitude stems from a sense of inferiority as she feels that if she isn't special or powerful she'll be alone or abandoned much like how her mother always forgets her. Personally I think the writer is just too lazy or set in his ways to try.
No. Astruc did not backtrack, he simply never changed the characters who interact with Chloé, they never scold her enough to point that her real problem is bullying NOT being useless. Giving her a a Miraculous with no moral sense just inflated her ego, and she already though she deserved anything as the Mayor 'a daughter
I mean.. But are Marinette and Chloe any different from each other. Both are extremely selfish (Marinette even uses her powers selfishly. She's just more creepy), and I'm pretty sure Marinette has an akumatization body count higher than Chloe.
Joe Devaney But she never learns from her mistakes cuz she makes them over and over again. Chloe is a way better character than Marinette, she’s like the worst character of the show. While Chloe is the second best and Nathalie the first best character. Usually villains and anti-heroes are way better than heroes. If Chloe is ever gonna be redeemed, I hope she won’t change too much.. I won’t love her anymore if she’ll be 100% good.
Joe Devaney Lmao what ? A character doesn’t need to be good to be loved. In DC fandom everyone loves Joker even though he’s a psychopath mass murder who smile when kills people. Doesn’t mean they’d support a killer in real life 😂. You’re sad if you think people can’t like villains cuz they’re evil and that they’re supposed to love heroes cuz they’re good. This is just fiction, not real life.. there’s literally no problem in loving villains if it’s fiction. Chloe is a bad person but a great character, while Mari is a good person but a bad character. Learn the difference between reality and fiction. You don’t like villains ? Cool, that’s your opinion and I respect it. I, just like tons of other people, love villains and that’s perfectly fine since it’s just a tv show. Villains can be loved too
Joe Devaney wtf are you talking about? You are obvliously 12 since u still think that world is divided in good and bad and if someone likes villains they are horrible people. Even if you like only good people why do you like Marinette? She has done so many selfish actions akumatised other people and would sabotage Kagami 3 times. You can talk for whole day how “cute” she is, but her bad actions are outweighting good ones. And also as character she is Mary Sue pretty much despite having flaws. She is loved by everyone and never faces consequences everyone sees her as perfect human being. So yeah shut up
I don't like Chloe because she's a spoiled brat but I don't hate her like I do Lila because Lila is just pure evil - in fact, I am a little sympathetic towards Chloe for having a deeply awful mother who can't even be bothered to remember her name. Chloe could possibly get a redemption arc but it would have to be in the hands of a really good writer and let's face it Thomas Astruc is not a good writer at all.
Aesthetical Dreams So every time you see someone disliking something about the show, you’re just like " sToP WaTcHiNg " or " YoU aReNt A tRuE fAn ". People are allowed to dislike things on a show. We’re not sheep without a brain like you, who love everything about the show without complaining anything. Fans know defects and good things on a show, something you clearly can’t do. A true fan isn’t someone who likes everything. People can still watching the show to see if the writing could get any better or if Astruc will succeed in having a good development ( probably not, he doesn’t know what character development is ). Thomas is also a jerk to his fans on Twitter ( and not just the hateful ones, also the good ones )
Marinette Thomas is a terrible writer. We were literally hints that MAYBE JUST MAYBE Chloe could actually change and become a good person. Of course that takes fucking time as the character changes their entire way of being. Good character development takes time, such as Zuko’s character development which spans almost the entire span of ATLA in contrast to those “crappy Barbie movies” in which the villains change in an instant. That type of development is terrible because we don’t get to see the villain’s struggle to change and their growth. OFC if Chloe WAS truly the irredeemable character then what was the point of Lila even existing then? All those hints of possible development weren’t necessary. The idea of someone (besides Gabriel ofc) using a miraculous for selfish reasons COULD have been explored with but that would affect the precious status quo that Thomas is too afraid to stray from. Seriously ofc Chloe is going to be terrible at first she has terrible parents which results in her being an attention seeker. Her own mother can’t even memorize her own name and she has a father who pretty much buys her love because he’s the mayor of the city and probably doesn’t make time for her so he makes up for it by spoiling her. Hell, the idea of her being a morally grey character is great. It sends the message that people can change but not fully that change requires self will. Since apparently Chloe might be the one with a secret sibling (who she probably doesn’t know about) could give something for people and kids even to relate to: separated/ divorced parents which obviously affects a child’s mental state. It is implied that Chloe’s parents (pre-Miracle Queen) have a terrible relationship and are obviously separated. Remember her being an attention seeker pretty much is why she is/was Queen Bee in the first place : Chloe believes she is useless. By her being Queen Bee she feels as though she has a purpose and that is her feeling of reward. Chloe just wants attention
Marinette Also MLB has a “villain of the week type of plot” it would be better if we saw more plot diversity or episodes focusing of characters other than Marinette, or even just an episode of Master Fu just teaching Marinette guardian things and exploring the lore better would be better than whatever the hell The Puppeteer 2 was. Seriously we have an entire cast of diverse characters how about they exist for another purpose besides for getting akumatized
I have to make a response. This is coming from a point of literary criticism. A character requires development if they are an important part of the media and there is something there that can be developed. You can't write a protagonist who doesn't develop in any shape or form, otherwise they remain a one dimensional slate who only furthers the story by actively engaging in the events that occur in the series, instead of futhering the story by actively affecting the way in which they engage in the events that occur in the series. This does not necessitate that every flaw of this character must be fixed, that is now how humans work. If you want to present a realistic character, you need to understand that some flaws are inherent and will always remain. However, as humans, they also overcome them. Some never do, which is essential if the character only exists as a villain or a character that doesn't affect the plot significantly. Chloe isn't a villain. She's a person who does bad things. She wasn't written into the story as the main source of anarchy or chaos, those positions are taken by Hawkmoth and Lila. The existence of her storyline is rather cliche, a spoilt rich child who has a superiority complex, but that doesn't equal to directly ruining a person's reputation or manipulating the emotions of vunerable people. She's already presented as being a better person that the villains established in the series. She's an important character and her remaining a selfish brat won't provide a new engagement for the story, she doesn't need to remain that way as Astruc has already established a difference between her and the other villains, a fundamental one that involves not crossing the boundary between being mean and being malicious. Therefore, development would be more than preferable for such an important character. Not only this, but as many commenters have mentioned, Chloe has a broken home. She has a reason to behave in the way she does that perfectly explains why she has a superiority complex and why she is so bratty. Overcoming this vicious cycle of being ignored by ones parents and only having material items as company would not only provide a good message to the "children" Astruc talks about, but would actually explain how ones fixation to the past isn't a mortal flaw and can be overcome. Gabriel Agreste already shows not being able to, why should Chloe also not need to? She has also resisted an akuma, stood in front of her friend Sabrina to protect her from an akuma, idolised a superhero who did good things, returned her miraculous when asked. Her character is not black, nor white, it's grey. A grey character doesn't have to be a wholly evil one, Astruc messed up trying to present the good side of Chloe because these good actions actively show her overcoming the things that held her back. Her arrogance when it came to returning the akuma, the very thing she had always dreamed of having after being humiliated on live TV. This isn't her simply being nice, this is her overcoming an instrisic flaw that builds her character. The need for approval, the need to be appreciated, all of which stems of a life she couldn't previously overcome. It's development. And then Astruc just went screw it and decided Chloe actually could never change because some people never do, and that she's still a brat who can't overcome her flaws? Despite dedicating two whole episodes to her attempting to, which could easily be built upon. This is bad writing, not an attempt at realism. Chloe's character should have been written differently if they wanted to show an iredeemable character. Any development seemed to be added to push a boring storyline that would engage viewers and then build a facade of progression up, before knocking it down for shock value. Astruc also clearly doesn't know what a villain is, Marinette stalks her crush and tries to break into his house, smells his things, used her authority as Ladybug to separate Kagami and Adrian, has caused people to become akumatised, and this behavior is never condemned. Yet Chloe's should? This proves to me that Astruc is not interested in writing a realisitc character, but forcing the characters to be a certain way in order to push his story. Chloe has to be a bad person, Marinette has to be a hero.
I agree, but disagree half of it. As we can see, Chloe also a rather opportunistic and love fame. When she helps people, she wants 1) To be recognized, 2) Getting Ladybug's praise. She does not do it on the base of goodwill. The reason why her development is tilted is because she is disappointed with Ladybug. However, this isn't that bad because Chloe will no longer cling to Ladybug and probably tired of Hawkmoth shit. She can be her own hero, doing something good because she wants to help someone (probably Adrian, Sabrina or her parent). However, Chloe resist Akuma is huge point to her future development. If they're smart writer, they use it on S4. I hold my judgement after S4 because I can see many type of writing being used for it
@@cestalia Yeah, I agree that her motivation towards doing good things is often influenced by fame. But there are scenes where she does good things without the need for recognition, as I've re-iterated, she gave up her miraculous. In the "Queen Wasp" episode, she's driven by wanting affection from her mother. She does bad things to obtain this, such as putting train passengers in direct danger. She's humiliated on live TV and still chooses to give up the one thing that she chases after, the person that is the source of her rude behaviour and her desire for approval, in order to do something good instead of wanting fame or recognition. A character shouldn't be portrayed as overcoming the intrinsic flaw that builds their negative character if they don't actually overcome it. I am looking too deep into the character, Astruc clearly doesn't appear to care about highlighting negative behaviour or leaving the status quo. Maybe Chloe just did one good thing and then decided to remain a bad person, who knows? I agree that there is a need for her to stop idolising Ladbug, however this could have been represented in that very episode, where she realises that approval shouldn't be the only thing that drives her to do good. Not doing a 180 and being constrained by a flaw she was overcoming, and which I believe necessary to be overcome for the character to improve. I definitely hope that future development occurs, because the show is becoming stale and repetitive, and no characters are actually developing. If there wasn't a reveal or love squae, the show wouldn't be as popular. A good show should be able to interest its viewer outside of twists and surprises.
@@seikoshinobaka9139 That's why I wait for S4 because as you say, it will be great development. I do will be disappointed if they don't give her development. We know one day Marinette will get Akumatized. Chloe and Adrian will be the last one standing. There's also Felix who actually fulfill anti-hero character more.
But when you put her in the same show as a guy with a dead mother (as far as he knows) and extremely controlling father but who's still a nice guy regardless and a girl with an even *more* controlling mother who's blunt and insentitive but ultimately a good person, Chloé suddenly seems not so sympathetic by comparison. That why I could never bring myself to sympathise with Jack from Mass Effect; because she had a horrible childhood, we're apparently supposed to forget that she's a convicted sociopath who's committed every crime in the book, even though several other characters have been through even worse and didn't turn out nearly as bad.
I'm all for Chloe getting a redemption arc, because she's got the makings of someone that can change if given the proper encouragement & guidance. Even if she's not ready to be a hero of the people instead of herself, it's a step in the right direction. Character Development exists for a reason. Ladybug could've been that person! Hell, if she won't, you'd think at least Chat Noir would since he understands her on a level nobody else can. Both of them come from broken homes, both suffer the psychological & emotional abuse from at least one parent. (Not to mention all the other things that make them similar) It's been proven that she can make the right decision but nobody's letting her grow as a person from it & that just pisses me off. Lila is so much WORSE than Chloe! If there's one person on this series who shouldn't get a redemption arc cause "they'll never change" its LILA ROSSI. #TeamChloe 🐝
I love Chloe as a character! She’s like that classic popular friend that’s the first day super nice to you and the second day she’s acting like she never knows you. I personally think alongside the mix of being a villain and hero would be amazing for the show since no one would be able to guess when she’s gonna get akumatized and when she’s not.
Chloe is my favourite character tbh. She's better than Lila and when I saw Chloe cry because she hurt her dad's feelings and her not having friends, I felt bad for her. I hope they make her kind someday.
In my opinion it’s not that Chloe NEEDS a redemption arch it’s that she DESERVES one. Btw this is not meant to be rude so don’t come at me! it’s just my opinion:)
Unpopular opinion I think: I feel like Chloé is pretty much one of the best written characters. Chloé is rude, arrogant, and acts like a brat. Her father is the mayor and spoils her with luxuries only to satisfy her. Her mother is narcissistic and does not acknowledge Chloé that much. Chloé is self entitled and had deeply respected Ladybug. She treats her own friend like a slave and is only nice to Adrien. If you think deeply about it, Chloé has a lot of depth to her. She acts self entitled to make sure she’s above everyone else in order to feel better about herself. Her parents neglect her true wishes and probably don’t even actually try talking with her to help with her issues. She respected Ladybug because she truly looked up to her and wanted to become a hero to be useful and to make herself feel better. She doesn’t treat Sabrina right because she wants to be on a higher level than her but still wants a friend. Adrien and Chloé knew each other as kids, and as Adrien said Chloé was his first ever friend so it could be the same way for Chloé which is why she’s so nice to him. Chloé is happy that Adrien considered her as a friend truly and trusts him. I’m someone who doesn’t really believe the idea all evil people have a good inside them. But I do believe that they all have a weakness to them. I felt like I could understand Chloé’s weakness as it seems she has low self esteem deep down. She believes she’s utterly useless, and tries to make it clear that she’s on a higher level than everyone else with her. She tells her Daddy when she has an “issue”, and doesn’t count on herself to try and fix it. She doesn’t believe that she’s capable of many things but wants to be. Chloé is without a doubt a bad person. But seeing her faults makes us understand her more, and it makes her more human. Villains don’t need sympathy, they need others to understand who they are, what the do, and why they do. I felt like I was able to understand Chloé even though she wasn’t necessarily a good person. (Oof lol sorry for my mega long comment XD)
tbh I think that kagami is the reflection of ladybug/marrinette her name LITERALLY means mirror in Japanese or Chinese (dont remember) no wonder Adrien likes kagami.
Not to mention, Kagami makes it clear about her statement that Marinette has to choose between Luka or Adrian. She has to set her priority straight first. I love how straightforward Kagami is
What I think is this is a example of how Mari will change because she said being a super hero changed her . And That leads me to believe every charter can change even cholie
Except Mari has been acting worst ever since she got her miraculous. Like stalking Adrien or stealing phones and before you say well she’s gotten better the season 3 finale shows just how much worst she has gotten. Like she had the perfect chance to end the whole fight but didn’t because she didn’t want to have Chloe‘s help and she went for Kagami because she was going to kiss Adrien.
To be honest marinette is kind of a hypocrite i mean she pulls kagami into a fight even though howkmoth knows her identity then says it to dangerous to give chloe her miraculous because howkmoth knows her
I actually noticed something about Chloe: she can play either side of the coin depending on which one reaps a larger reward for her. Evidence A: Queen Bee. Like you said, she never really cared for doing her job or saving people, like Ladybug or, say, Ryuko. The only reason she wanted to be a superhero was for the bragging rights. Chloe thought being a superhero would earn her fame and fortune, when in reality she had it all wrong. She lost her powers for a good reason, and frankly it’s for her own good. If she stayed a hero, then Hawk Moth would keep targeting her and put her life at risk. Evidence B: Miracle Queen. I see a lot of people asking why she refused an akuma only to accept one later. Simple: Chloe still thought that she was a superhero. Her goal was to prove herself to Ladybug, and again fame came into it. She saw being a hero as the better side, as at that moment in time she could get more out of it than being a supervillain. However, once Chloe was fired as a hero, the dark side offered a better reward: revenge. Chloe, as you also pointed out, is one of the only characters that doesn’t fit in to the black and white dynamic that Miraculous has. She doesn’t care for what’s deemed right or wrong: she only cares for what SHE wants to do. This is a trait Chloe’s shown since Season 1. She rarely thinks about or considers the consequences of her actions and behaviour. She’s very much an opportunist. If Chloe can gain an advantage in a certain situation, she will. This is what I believe drove her to become Miracle Queen. Whenever Hawk Moth approached her to help him bring down the others, she agreed. It’s not because she’s an “evil” person: it’s because at that moment, her opportunistic side kicked in. Chloe saw that, in her current situation, being a supervillain would aid her more than being a superhero. She would her powers back, she would get revenge on her former idol, she would gain notoriety and become infamous. That overruled her premonitions about the perks of being a Miraculous Holder, and therefore she decided to jump ship. I would say her personality and character is more akin to Catwoman than Venom: she can play either side, just as long as there’s something in it for her.
I agree. A big part of her is how opportunistic she is. Sure she can protect others or has a painful past, even a dysfunctional family like Adrien. Doesn't mean she has to be "redeemed". If she's happy with what she has, where she is, and what she's done, that's fine by me.
Jecily E Yeah exactly. While it would be nice for her to get a redemption arc, if Chloe is happy the way she is right now and doesn’t want to change then there’s no reason for her to. Edit: THOMAS I WAS KIDDING I DIDN’T MEAN MAKE HER A SADISTIC PSYCHOPATH-
I think that this whole series is based on Thomas astruc's past present and future life, honestly speaking. I think he literally lives his life through these characters. That's why there is no proper progression of the episodes. If it was another author writing this show, the progression would be very different.
The problem being... Thomas baited the fandom throughout the whole 3rd season! And now he's defending himself as "You were wrong in believing Chloe as more than a 2 dimensional villiain only because I made you think so!"... I'm starting to think Astruc is becoming a lazy writer... I mean, there were so many directions the story could have taken at the endo of s3: -Chloe waiting for the last moment to bait out of the fight justifying herself by saying that Hawmoth LITERALLY HAD HER PARENTS AS HOSTAGES SO SHE HAD NO CHOICE -Chloe throwing her frustrations for not being chosen on Sabrina causing her to become the "boss fight" of s3, causing a breakup between the two and finally Sabrina becoming her own person instead of just a mushroom growing on Chloe's ego (also possible ripercussion in Chloe facing solitude and becoming a better person, just sayin') -Chloe recieving the bee miraculous and then refusing to help Hawkmoth in a last effort to impress LB, only for her to ask the miraculous back, Chloe refusing and becoming a heroine on her own... a bitter heroine but a heroine nonetheless (or a anti-heroine) But no... Astruc decided "Naaaah! Character development? Never heard of it! Better stick to the same old..."
You know in the season 3 finale I don't blame Chloe for betraying ladybug I would probably do the same because of a simple reason : ladybug kept lying to her every time Chloe asked if she could use the miraculous ladybug lied to her. Chat noir kept telling her that she should tell Chloe but she never did and at some point Chloe got fed up
Mari can't give Chloe miraculous because it's too dangerous because everyone knows her indentity but didn't she give kagami tha miraculous when hawkmoth knows her identity?? And that was just for kagami was with Adrien . Mari IS a bad character.
Her's a big flaw in my opinion: (Roll with me here) Why weren't Alya, Nino, and Chloe given their miraculous by Fu and actually allowed to keep their Miraculous? (Say for maybe Nino) I honestly don't see a reason to why they didn't do this, other then keeping the status quo of the show. This could let us see who Rena Rouge, Carapace, and Queen Bee really are apart from their civilian identities. Cuz think about it, what is queen bee and ladybug got along, but Marinette and Chloe hated each other? That would add a neat piece of irony and give way for Marinette and Chloe to get to know each other better through seeing the best version of themselves. Both Marinette and Chloe could be a catalyst for each other to become better people. You can also raise the stakes with Hawkmoth ACTUALLY become more powerful with Mayrua. Making more heroes necessary. You know what? Humor me for a bit longer. What if, what if Chloe found out that Adrian was cat Noir? Rather than the first identity reveal to be between ladybug and Cat Noir, what if it was Chloe and Adrien? Maybe at this point in the story, Chloe has either developed genuine feelings for Adrian, or has decided to drop her Crush entirely. How cute would that be? Adrian finally having the Chloe he knew back when they were little, and Chloe having a genuine friendship. They could tease each other about their double lives, cover for each other, heck, Chloe could even tease him about his ladybug Crush. They can genuinely get closer to each other in a non-romantic way. And how do you think Marinette would take that? Heck, you can even keep the whole " giving miraculouses to a person for a single mission, then get the miraculous back afterwards" but instead of just ladybug it's everybody on the team giving out the miraculouses. What if cat Noir gave a miraculous to Nino? If queen bee gave one to Sabrina? Rena Rouge to Marinette? Carapace to Alia? they can all have unique reasons specific to their character and experiences, for giving a miraculous to someone. you can have the class be closer to each miraculous wielder for different reasons so choosing a wielder will feel more unique. OMGOODNESS could you imagine a Kwami swap ep with all these Miraculous in play?!? What if like Adrian was sick or hurt or something, so Chloe either combined the Bee and the Cat or was just the Cat? What if the others swapped in a similar way the show did, Marinette got the fox, Alya you got the turtle, and Nino got the ladybug? And also, you know, NOT HAVE THE EPISODE BE FILLER AND ACTUALLY HAVE THE CharacterS GROW BY TRUSTING EACH OTHER MORE. Guys, I'm sad now.....
I guess because putting multiple miraculous user itself is already a risk. Remember that Hawkmoth only chase two people because there's only two miraculous user. Imagine if there's multiple, finding their identity will be much easier.
@@cestalia You know I totally forgot to address that thank you for reminding me 😃 If more Miraculous users were in play it would raise the stakes even further when secret identities become an issue. Say Adrian and Chloe are over joyed to know each other's identity, but when master Fu finds out he warns them of the dangers, it can put them even more on edge. You can even justfi the weird " if you find out the other secret identity, you have to give back your miraculous." (Which was never said before hand) by MAKING this such an issue by having him threaten to take them away. Heck have that be a driving reason why LB and CN can't know each other's identity. If it was shone just how powerful the akuma have become, and how much Ladybug and Chat Noir were struggling, then new heroes would be necessary. It can put Master Fu even more on edge. (Side note. Why the heck did master Fu give out the Black Cat? I love Chat but there's no reason specifically to give out that one. I actually find it more dangerous to give out the two most powerful miraculous. But idk)
I'd really love to see Chloe being a better person, I still do. But I wouldn't mind her staying as a villain. It's just that her downfall seemed so... sudden. Maybe when Ladybug gave the miraculous to Kagami instead of Chloe, she could've confronted Ladybug on why she gave the miraculous to Kagami instead of her even though both of their identities have been revealed. Then Chloe decides to give up on Ladybug because she thinks that Ladybug finds her worthless and Hawkmoth finds her and manipulates her into joining the dark side. Idk I'm not really good at writing, but I'd still like some development before her akumatization and her downfall.
Let's not forget: like Chloe, The Venom symbiote once admired peter for his willing purpose as a hero and wanted to stick with him throughout the journey (literally) but got violently rejected and felt a strong resentment towards Spidey for it
Whether a hero or a villian, Chloe definately needs a miraculous of her own in order to seem like she actually has a purpose in the show at this point.
I think it could many ways. She could be a gray character in a world of black and white characters (which i think is a really cool concept). She could be bad (which I’m not a huge fan). Or she could be good but not have the same motivations as all the other hero’s which could make her sorta an outcast and have to learn to accept herself (I like this one because it could show kids that it’s okay to have your own reasons to do something. And I really like it when the characters teach kids that something is okay (like guy girl friendships with no romantic feeling or it’s okay to be yourself))
I don't like Chloe as a person, but I find her to be an interesting character. She doesn't need a redemption arc, but it would be nice to see. One more thing, her transformation to Queen Bee is literally amazing
I think chloe should be redeemed! It doesn't mean she has to stop acting like an entitled snoby rich kid, she has never been evil, maybe rude, blunt, and even a. Bully but that's not being evil. Evil is Lila. Evil is hurting people on purpose even when there's no gain. Chloe usually just says mean things that hurt ppls feelings, lila literally pretends someone pushed her down a flight of stairs, now thats evil. Chloe put the ppl in the train at risk but not intentionally, or with the purpose of putting lives at risk for fun, it was more of a, I didn't think this bad idea though and i she jst wanted to be part of ladybugs crew. 🥺😭😭 poor chloe. 😢 she genuinely apologized to ladybug. I am not justifying her behavior but rather having compassion for someone who needs guidance.
Personally, I feel like the writers have written themselves into a corner with Chloe. They made her into a stereotypical mean girl then did the surprised pikachu face when they couldn't, or didn't want to redeem her. But saying Chloe is "evil" is stupid, she's a bratty high schooler, not a hardened criminal! She doesn't need to be a hero, it wouldn't make sense as she's revealed her identity. But the idea of her being an anti hero sounds awesome! The show desperately needs a likeable non hero, and Chloe has the potential as long as the writers feel like giving her positive traits or strengths. Likable villains are the best tbh, just look at Jesse and James from Pokemon.
I really dont like Chloe, but the show would just feel so incomplete without her. My theory for season 4: It's been rumoured that there might be a kinder, more living and more caring queen bee in season 4. Whilst this is a good way for ladybug to repair some mistakes, imagine how betrayed Chloe would feel if this happened. Also since Hawk Moth fixed the peacock miraculous, if he fuses it with the Butterfly Miraculous he could akumatize Chloe AGAIN but this time she could become almost undefeatble since she had her trust in Ladybug ripped right out again.
Chloe isn’t an evil person, she’s a bully & obnoxious. But NOT evil, she’s just a girl who’s been emotionally abused by her Mom trying to deal with her trauma alone, she is need of therapy.
I think Astruc is being petty, childish and partial. What he did to this character accomplishes nothing against his old bully. And if he made her have a sad backstory, that means he must have considered the possibility that the bully also had her own problems, and yet, he doesn't have the empathy to care. Astruc is a pathetic, emotionally unbalanced shallow manchild. And that reflects in both the main characters and plot.
I feel like she will get some kind of redemption arch because really the only reason she acts like this is because she really didn’t have a good childhood from what we can see •Mum who doesn’t notice her existence •Dad who really only cares about his power as mayor •Only friend is Adrien She does kinda deserve a redemption arch she does have some good in her
It would’ve made the most sense if they’d stuck with the redemption arc but I like it more if she became an anti-hero instead. Eventually, Chloe could become a better person and share the bee miraculous with Zoe or have someone develop a bee themed costume and weapons.
First of all Chloe is the best "comic relief" in the show. Her lines are mean but smart or "brutally honest". Without Chloe and her sense of humor the show is boring for me. I feel sometimes ashamed when I see Marinette and Chat Noir how they act close to Adrien and Lady Bug and the Kwamis are more irritating for me than funny. Chloe has a real problems and good backstory (just like Adrien): mother left her, after that her friend left her probably before she went to school. (Sabrina and Adrien don't know eachother well so they didn't spend time together with Chloe. So first Adrien left her and after that she met Sabrina). Chloe got her miraculum only because of mistake by Marinette. Marinette lost this miraculum. Noone explain her the rules. She shown it because once again she was humiliated by her mum. Marinette didn't face the consequences and Chloe did. Chloe is one of the most complicated character and nobody know how she will act. She can be super mean but she can do something good and noone can predict that and that is interesting. How they can change this character: She will fall in love in good boy (e.g. someone from Marinette's familly). She will forget about "superheroes" because she will protect him. (there is so many option for funny situation: she will ask Marinette about help, she will protect this boy without miraculum, she will change her behavior but she should stay "brutally honest".)
Despite how much I genuinely want to see Chloe's redemption, someone who turns against their cause so quickly due to some personal emotions cannot be a hero. You can't be a superhero if all it takes to make you turn on everyone and join the enemy is your ally refusing to give you a miraculous.
I have no problem for her to be a villain. I have problems with her being a bully again. I hate bully characters. They are not interesting, not entertaining, almost add nothing to plot, so they are just blank. They are just a chore for the heroes. They make her more villany with make her make an alliance with Lila. I could like it but, when I remember Thomas hate Chloe, I can't have fun. I can't like the episodes. They didn't make her a villain because they think it's a good idea or interesting thing to do. They make her a villain because Thomas hate her.
I just hate how Thomas truly believes chole was never redeemable and will never be redeemable...she's fourteen?! saying young kids who made a mistake as a kid will never be to grow past, be helped and even become a better person because of what they did as a kid? Chloe was horrible...but she could of been helped to change for the better and hell if they wanted someone to 1v1 Marinette just use Lila?! And don't get me started on Zoe, Zoe is a straight copy of Chloe expect she's "nice" . That's it. That is her personality...she's nice. Zoe got everything from day one, she got friends, got to be in a movie, got the bee miraculous?! she has no flaws. Chloe was better because she started with flaws and then could of worked her way to be "nice", Zoe is just Thomas trying to have a Chloe without it being Chloe.
Honestly? That last idea you threw out there? That’s genius! She follows her own rules and does what she wants as long as she benefits from it. It makes perfect sense for her to switch sides constantly and be a gray character. Not exactly good, but not exactly evil either. She would be the perfect anti-hero with her own sets of morals and rules. It’s perfect cause it doesn’t redeem her and it doesn’t make her a typical play by play small time villain. It might make some people unhappy, but dang I’d love to see an anti hero queen bee.
Then make Chloe an example of how love can change a person! So that kids will know what is love! The guy with green hair fits her because that guy is so understanding and also kind not to mention he is handsome and Chloe is beautiful!!! But come on! Why do you need to do it! Ahg!! I hate that Zoe such a copycat 🙄
The fact that people know chloe is queen bee would actually be a really cool interesting part of the show. And it would constrast with how marinette is so careful and secretive about her identity (most of the time). Plus chloe is so proud to be a hero just like her idol that it would make sense that she lets everyone know because she's bold and proud in general on top of being somewhat self centered. I think that would be a nice dynamic while she also learns to be more humble and polite as a civilian. Kinda like the dynamic of chat noir/ adrien but with less of a jarring difference between the hero and civilian identities because I'd like chloe to keep her bratty temperament.
I knew she was going to get a redemption arc when Lila showed up. I mean both of them are rude, snarky, have bad parents (except Lila has the perk of manipulative, so if anything she is worse than Chloe). The show seemed to head in the direction that Chole would be good because she had the bee miraculous, she was the only person to resist being taken over by an Akuma, which even the good teacher with the red hair wasn't able to resist. You wouldn't have to worry about missing a "mean girl" either with Lila . You can still make Chloe mean, she looked like she was on the road to improvement.
My issue is that it seemed like they were setting up a redemption by giving her sympathetic backstory and such. If they just want to keep her the villain that's fine but why bother with the arc and establish a new, worse, villain in the same sort of role?
Chloe has a lot of fans because of her attitude, sarcasm, and the connection she has with reality, it’s supposed to be a joke when we say, “GO QUEEN BEE YASSSS!!” But some people think we encourage her for being a bully? I would still encourage her even if she wasn’t! It has nothing to do with that! I also believe that Chloe can be a good person someday!
i want it to be a zuko style redemptive arc. like. she was getting better but then slipped back into her old ways bc of temptation bc healing isn’t linear.
I think anti-hero Chloe would be a fascinating take on her character arc. The reason so many fans were put off, I think, is because writing tends to follow patterns or tropes. The way the story was progressing and how the scenes were written would normally lead to a character redemption, what with her admiration of Ladybug. People thought that working with someone she idolizes might give her some introspection. Maybe some scenes between Chloe and Ladybug where she sees just how much Ladybug cares for the people of Paris or how dangerous it is for Ladybug would spark something. Instead they got Miracle Queen. I truly believe it's a symptom of modern day writers who want to pull a gotcha moment on their audience. Where authors want to outwit the fandom by pulling the wool over their eyes by subverting whatever theories or tropes that crop up. This is fine in small doses. The problem is that authors are doing it constantly. With the rise of social media and ability to interact with fans it became possible to know what the fandom believes will happen and has brought about the ability to yank the carpet out from under them. It's not always a bad thing to subvert expectations, but when it's the only consistent thing you have going for your writing then your plot itself tends to suffer. It makes it nigh impossible to build the foundations of the overarching plot, if there is one, and character motivations stop making any lick of sense. It becomes jarring. And while the average viewership doesn't analyze to the extent that some of us do, they still notice when something doesn't quite make sense. Suspension of disbelief will only carry you so far. The way it seems to me, and take this with a grain of salt because I haven't gotten too deep into the show, is that the world itself is changing and moving forward, but the character's themselves are stagnant. Of course Astruc himself might not be doing this purposefully, but it certainly seems strange that it's such a reoccurring thing. Just my two cents.
I totally agree with your argument, not only would that be hella amazing as far as a character arc goes, but it gives both her character and the show more depth. The only reason I'm actually mad at Thomas is because he thinks he's the new Hitchcock or Steven Spielberg and he's so arrogant and blinded by his own egocentrism. He acts like a child towards basic criticism and I hate people like that.
I actually really like the idea of Chloe/Bee being an antihero. Think of it: say, at the end of Miracle Queen, she manages to escape with the Bee Miraculous. She comes home, and thinks to herself. Every time she’s chosen a side in the fight between HM and the heroes, there’s only been more and more problems. She decides to branch out on her own, to find her own way of stopping Hawk Moth from destroying her city. She completely disassociates herself from the other heroes, striking out on her own and trying to uncover Moth’s identity. She refuses to join a side, preferring to be on her own. Eventually her and Ladybug lock horns over how to deal with the recent rash of akumas. The two are forced to work together on a particular mission, and they discuss the events of Miracle Queen. Chloe partially accepts responsibility on her own behalf, admitting that she could’ve definitely handled the situation better than she did. But she points out that Ladybug needs to be more open to her teammates about what’s going on, noting that what happened to her could very well happen to any of the other heroes if she lets history repeat itself. Ladybug apologises to her, saying that she made a stupid mistake. While Chloe doesn’t entirely forgive Ladybug, she does somewhat accept the apology for the most part. The two girls come to a truce of sorts: and even work together sometimes on patrols when they need to.
My thing with chloe is she’s not just a bad person sometimes to be a bad person she comes from a genuinely bad home life Like her character was built how Zuko’s character was built on top of that if thomas was in this mindset of “she’s always gonna be bad” then why tf would he add Lila, an objectively worse person
Chloe is a difficult character, easy to hate, hard to sympathize with. But what drives her? She wants to stand out, often ridiculing others, but what breaks her down is the lack of love towards her, from her parents (Style Queen, Malediktator) and others. Even losing Sabrina's friendship hurts her, in the end. I believe - and you are more than welcome to disagree with me - that she needs to care for somebody more than she cares for herself; in other words, she has to love and be loved in return, to set her on the straight and narrow. I know, it IS a tall order. And just who could this special person be? Let's suppose it is the total opposite of who she has been craving for since the start. In other words, not Adrien Agreste! No, it should be someone different; someone who does not fear her but, at the same time, is caring and gentle. Going off on a limb - and again, you are more than welcome to disagree - I see two choices: either Luka or somebody entirely new to the series. Perhaps it can be a new exchange student to Françoise Dupont High School.
I think Chloe being a Venom type would be wonderful, at least as a temporary solution. I don't know if that'd be viable the closer we get to the final battle, but hot damn the reason so many people are angry with Miraculous right now is Thomas being a an child. Calling a middle school child irredeemable, especially given her upbrining and circumstances, is so utterly ridiculous (hehe I had to sorry). Now he's blocked half his fans because 1) he CAN NOT accept any kind of criticism even if a literal angel came down and delivered the news as gently as possible and 2) he's blatantly ignored the fact that his "kids show" targets more than just kindergardeners. High schoolers watch. Adults watch. He's defending his show on the grounds of "it's for kids" when in reality it's just not true. I really hope the show recovers from this (and how he treats Cat Noir, and everyone being so oblivious they lose their IQs, and Marinette's villain behavior, and- oh, guess maybe it's too late?)
It's even worse if he keeps brushing it off as 'just for kids'. Romanticizing obsession and stalking isn't a healthy lesson for kids. I had to learn this the hard way when I watched this with my 8 year old niece and had to remind her not to act like Marinette when she gets all creepy around Adrien. Why? Because she thought this was how she should act around her crush. Spending an entire hour afterwards undoing the damage makes me wish I hadn't shown her the show in the first place.
I feel like it was more of a part of her redemption ark to make it more realistic by making her revert to being worse then what she used to be walk off in anger and realise that she messed up when she gets to where she wants to go and throughout the next seasons she looks back on her actions and try’s to realise that life doesn’t give you things because you asked for it all the time. This could lead to her being akumatized again as she moves to her lowest point as she realises how bad she has been and in this instance her akumatized form reflects her regret and she becomes forgiven when she is de-akumatized
I know this is 10 months old. But let's just say this Chloe the one to Fight against getting akumatized. Not even Marinette was going to do that and neither did Adrienne but somehow a ready girl managed to fight against to that
I think Chloe should be redeemed. They’ve worked too hard to make us sympathize with her. Lila can be the villain that Astruc expects Chloe to be. She easily fills that position of someone who doesn’t care about others and purely wanted to play superhero just to impress people and show off. She’s Chloe but if Chloe were actually just straight up malicious. Chloe is more complex though. She values certain people, things, relationships, and even sometimes cares how people perceive her. She looked up to Ladybug and was happy to fight by her side for a time. She’s also not straight up evil. She just makes bad choices because she’s never really had proper love and kindness modeled in her home. She’s been spoiled with nice things to distract from the lack of love and attention from her parents. She’s got more going on that we can understand, learn from and sympathize with. That just plants the seeds all too perfectly for her to be redeemed, especially if she still values having a relationship with Ladybug at all. She can easily be an imperfect and rough around the edges hero, but I think she still deserves to be a hero at the end of the day. Lila, on the other hand, is just cruel and malicious. She’s manipulative, controlling, holds grudges, and doesn’t value honest or true relationships with people. It makes sense to make her a villain. She values nothing good, and so she won’t get anything good and doesn’t deserve success either. If you want an irredeemable, self sabotaging character, she’s it.
I think Chloes redemption arc is what made Miracle Queen so much more impactful and meaningful. We saw that Chloe is more that just a mena girl and that shes actually sensitive and wants someone to see her as special because shes never had that before. We also saw her idolize ladybug and want to be a hero herself. Then we watched her grow hopeless as ladybug kept refusing to use her and then we saw her give up hope. She just wanted a family and friends and ladybug was finally that for her then she took that away. Chloe is the strongest character as seen when hawkmoth unsuccessfully tried to akumatize her. She just grew tired of waiting and hawkmoth offered her what she had been waiting for. The end of miracle queen while chloe was yelling at lb made me really sad because I saw more than chloe being chloe. I saw a girl who was once strong and confident be hurt so many times that she finally caved in and lost everything and when she said that lb didnt deserve to breathe the same air as her, I saw that as more of a defense mechanism--the same one shes used her whole life (just as she was starting to break from that). I really hope that in the new seasons well see her finally understand that'll was just trying to protect her and maybe lb will try to spend some time with her even without giving her the bee miraculous
I think Chloe should get a redemption arc because she isn't evil, and her being queen bee makes her a better person I kind of think she has way more development than Marinette and I think she could be a good person we've seen numerous times in the show that chloe cares about other people, and when she is queen bee she is actively trying to help others.
The scene of her resisting the akuma was SO powerful though. She is the only character who has managed that. I see how people fell in love right then. I think that Thomas miscalculated the power of that moment.
I think he will use it in future tho.
Perhaps Marinette finally get Akumatized along several people. Only Adrian (who forced to use Tikki, lmao) and Chloe (because she has enough of Hawkmoth shit) are the last two people left. They are working together and some stuff
cestalia That's a very nice concept, however I doubt anything like that will happen considering, to Astruc, Marinette can do no wrong and all her mistakes are "normal" for her age.
cestalia I agree but the purple power up gives the power to capture an akuma so I think he would use that not tikki
Alicia Nieto Marinette has to I think
@@rojadita What Marinette did is NORMAL. Do you forget she is teenager that suddenly being poured responsibility??? It's like expecting teenager to have part time job as a head of company which shoulder hundred of employees. Do you think it will be smooth ride??
If I was her, I threw my damn miraculous. 🙄
She makes mistakes understandable, she's like 14-16. She can't even act straight in front of her crush, of course she can't keep up with all the heroes job.
Do people think when they watch the show? When I was 14, I was busy drawing, not saving the city
I think Thomas just doesn’t like changing his characters and clings to the status quo, and some other writer tried to give the characters progression during season 2. Thomas tightened his grip in season 3 and that’s why he’s defending season 3 so much - he’s upset that people appreciate the changes someone else made to his show.
Yeah his name is Sébastian
Everyone stan Sèbastian, everything good about the writing is cause of him!
what a *KING* Sébastian is 😌
burger patty ikr
@@marianavillegas3000 Yes bless this man
"Chloe will always be bad"
1) Protects Sabrina from akumas when Lila gets Marinette expelled.
2) Fights off Hawkmoths Akuma.
3) When fight Mynura said that she will always stand by ladybug because she believes in her.
"It's too dangerous since everyone knows her identity."
Didn't Marinette pull Kagami in the fight second to the last episode even though it was too dangerous because she and Adrien were getting too close...?
4) was one of the few that believed mari didn't steal from Lila
5) was willing to change so her and adrien would stay friends
6) saves rose
7) saves lb
@@emmawilliams8878 even though in season 1 she rips Rose's letter in front of her, locked Juleka in a bathroom, nearly got the entire class arrested, got Sabrina's dad fired, mocked Nathaniel, made fun of Alix as well as her family, bullied Marinette for 4+ years, smothers Adrien 24/7 even though he clearly doesn't like it, sexually assaults Adrien daily, can't even buy him a gift without forcing Sabrina to do it, unfriended Sabrina over a mistake, unfairly got Alya expelled, rejected Kim in the harshest way before sending pics to everyone and I can go on. You can't ignore her 4+ years of being a bully in season 1, just because her mom is an entilted womanchild, especially when Chloe had her dad yet treated him like dirt.
Yes
@@michaelfireheart8300 those points are to show that there’s good in Chloe and that she doesn’t always have pure bad intentions. Literally nobody said she’s innocent, so I’m not sure why you brought these things up when everyone is well aware that she’s done bad things.
@@gio4931 really? Is that why you don't bring these up at all? Oh that's right as it destroys your whole she has good in her narrative that relies on her mother to take the blame for all of her actions.
I would not mind Chloe as a gray area villain however I will say that I only wanted her to have a redemption ark cause ever since I was a little kid and avatar ended I've never seen anyone like silo that started as a villain and later becomes good . you don't even need Chloe to stay good she can still be mean and help the bad team just cause shes in a gray area . my one problem with this whole thing is the creator of the show slightly feeding the message "people never change " and that actually hurts me cause I know people that have changed to be who they are today so hearing him say that makes me see him that he just sees the world in black amd white and nothing else
But it’s the truth: some people never change. A lot of y’all need to accept that people like Chloe can never change unless they want to change for themselves. That’s reality. If the writer did want y’all wanted, then it would have sent a message that people like Chloe don’t need to face the consequences of their actions because all they need is to have a sad backstory for people to pity them, which is what a lot of y’all are doing to Chloe. From seasons 1 to 3, Chloe has made it very clear that she doesn’t care about saving people unless she wants to impress people and ladybug. Of course, there were exceptions. However, Chloe needs to be held accountable for actions and suffer (not that much) the consequences of her actions. She put so many innocent peoples lives in danger just because ladybug refused to give her a miraculous. Ladybug even explained why she could no longer give it to her, but Chloe refused to listen. Frankly, it seems like some of y’all keep defending Chloe because y’all see a part of yourselves in her or something like that.
Well said my friend.
@@k.d3983 But she won't have to face consequences of her actions though. She isn't going to get arrested, kicked out of school or even grounded. Pehaps because her father has influence but probably because the writers couldn't be bothered and are in love with the status Quo. Not being able to have a miraculous anymore is not a punishment since it was never hers in the first place. If anything it teaches a lesson that you can get away with terrorism and deprives as off plotlines where her suffering consequences is relevant. Not that I think teaching lessons is a good indicator of the quality of the show. Children are people too and so they want to be entertained, not moralised and trying to teach a lesson that a lot of the viewers disagree with is shooting yourself in the foot which admittedly I don't know if that's the case here since I don't know what's the most popular opinion on the matter.
And if someone on the show is lying it is always obvious as fuck and Chloe is too dumb to be a good liar anyway. If she is irredimable the writters should have either put hints that her slight improvement is not genuine or have her attitude towards people changing for the worst be as gradual as it was the other way around. And I'm not talking about her opinion of Ladybug, that was gradual and had a reason behind it, I mean that in season 3 she was as much of a bitch to people as in season 1. Bitchiness is on a spectrum but the writers clearly didn't care at that point even though they clearly cared back in season 2. I'm mostly talking about Stormy Weather 2.0 because most inconsistencies in Chloe's character can be explained by the episodes not being in chronological order but this one we have the general idea where on the timeline it falls. Aloso she was angry that her parents stopped arguing which is in contradiction with what was shown before. Regardless what the writting staff might think this cannot be explained by her being evil because evil people also have things and people they care about, that is what makes them human. Chloe still caring about her parents wouldn't be an indication of her being a good person but that she has some semblance of depth and the writters took it away even if it makes no sense just to flex how evil she is.
Safilan Yeah in some episodes she showed a genuinely good heart. If she really was irredeemable, they should’ve done that way better.
@@k.d3983 yeah see heres the thing, chloe does want to change and has said so. So....
1:24 I personally feel like that's a lazy argument on the part of the writers. Multiple episodes showed Chloe had a great amount of depth to her, way more than any other character in the series. Yeah she's a bully, but we see it stems from a broken home and a mother who treats her like crap. Being a hero brought out the best in her and showed there was more to her. But because the writer of this series seems to hate her, any development is handwaved away.
@Marinette Because just because a writer has plans doesn't automatically make them good. Some times you need a second opinion on something to improve it. If everything did everything after the first draft, there would be no progress.
Marinette Exactly. Thomas is showing us that people can’t change unless they want to change for themselves and for the right reasons. Someone said this best: redeeming a bully without letting them learn from their mistakes and being held accountable for them is showing that it’s okay for them to get away with the harm they’ve caused to people. Also, Chloe did NOT come from a broken home. Yes, her mother neglected her. But, she had a father who loved her and gave her everything she wanted because he wanted her to be happy. She had a roof over her head, didn’t have to worry about food, etc. And, even if she did come from a broken home or whatever sad past she had, that doesn’t excuse her actions at all. So what if she did “good”? She mainly did it to impress ladybug, and she hasn’t learned from her actions at all. There are people who are just like Chloe in real life. Hell, even some of my former bullies were like Chloe, and somewhat like Lila. I saw a few of them changed for the better, but some of them were still horrible assholes. Overall, I get the vibe that some of chloe fans are legit like Chloe in their own way. Or, they just want to see another Zuko redemption arc.
The Fan Without a Face So? If someone gives you unwanted criticism of your unfinished work, are you going to listen to them despite telling them that you know what you’re doing? He’s not obligated to listen to “fans” who keep telling him what he should do with HIS story. And, that’s a huge issue that a lot of y’all don’t understand. Y’all have no right to dictate how his story should go just because y’all don’t like the direction of the story. He’s even stated that his show is aimed for kids, so why are grown ass adults and teenagers who are in their late teens getting upset that he’s not catering a show to y’all’s needs?
But it’s the truth: some people never change. A lot of y’all need to accept that people like Chloe can never change unless they want to change for themselves. That’s reality. If the writer did want y’all wanted, then it would have sent a message that people like Chloe don’t need to face the consequences of their actions because all they need is to have a sad backstory for people to pity them, which is what a lot of y’all are doing to Chloe. From seasons 1 to 3, Chloe has made it very clear that she doesn’t care about saving people unless she wants to impress people and ladybug. Of course, there were exceptions. However, Chloe needs to be held accountable for actions and suffer (not that much) the consequences of her actions. She put so many innocent peoples lives in danger just because ladybug refused to give her a miraculous. Ladybug even explained why she could no longer give it to her, but Chloe refused to listen. Frankly, it seems like some of y’all keep defending Chloe because y’all see a part of yourselves in her or something like that.
Pfft, just because someone had tragic backstory doesn't mean their action justify. This is like saying Yuno Gasai had development when she's a batshit insane girl just because of her bad childhood.
If chloe is so evil according to thomas... then how come she looks up to ladybug. That means that she still believes there is good in her and looks up to ladybug to help herself find it, also I never heard the thing because it is 3 am and I cant wake up any one
Very true, I agree. Ladybug wouldn’t have EVER been her idol if she didn’t have at least a bit of good in her.
If Chloe is so evil, then don’t show the fact that she has a narcissistic mother and a dangerously passive father. That will only make your audience sympathize with her even more
From how Thomas responds to people on twitter about Chloe and her being "irredeemable" at 14, it seems like he's projecting a bit of his hatred towards someone that affected him at a younger age onto the character.
Because she relishes the spotlight. That's why she didn't even bother to keep her identity secret.
I don’t think she will look up to LB anymore after the ending of season 3
In my opinion I like chole and would be fine if she was a hero, but her as an antihero seems more interesting because if she got the bee miraculous she would hopefully not reveal herself and make it harder for them to figure out who she was which would be a good side plot for the show to focus on occasionally mabey even adding a little more plot and continuity to the show which a lot of the fandom would like.
Ok but in season 4 she will become a villain
Moiz Vaghjipurwala You don’t know that for sure lmao. Yeah for some episodes she probably will be a villain, but maybe she could get another chance for a redemption
I agree, I don´t think that most people had such a deep reaction to the finale making her "bad", but to it making her look plain and mentally "weak".
It is true that her perceived redemption arc could not be redemption, but she did become stronger, mentally. She rejected hawkmoth! She resisted an akuma! And sudenly, it takes someone to go to her and "tempt" her, and she wants to be a puppet under a "looser"? If she had taken matters in her own hands, decided to do anything to get her powers back (as she does) and hunt him down to steal his miraculpus/the bee/ track down the miraculpus box/ladybug/whatever? Well, that would have been so different!
I thought so too. Maybe when she transforms, she'll have a much more different design and maybe a different name too (if she has the miraculous ofc or a different one). And maybe she's a silent anti hero too, considering how loud mouthed she is it'll be less noticeable to see her as Chloe.
I'd love to see Chloe get her hands on a different miraculous and then be a hero that helps LB and CN but never interacts with them otherwise. Then, she could start/finish (your preference) her redemption and have a new look so people don't know it's her.
One of the most evil acts Ladybug has ever done in this show has been done to Chloe in my opinion. When it came time to choose a ally the universe was telling her to choose Queen bee. But she didn't do that. Did she choose the turtle no. The fox no. The snake no. The horse no. Heck did she pick the monkey?! No. She choose the dragon. Why? Was she the closest? No the bee was for sure the closet to the Akuma. Was it because Chloe revealed her secret identity? That would be a explanation save for the fact that the dragon's identity was also know to Hawkmoth. No the only reason why Kagami was chosen over Chloe was because Kagami was having a date with Adrien at the time. She put her own wants and desires over the betterment of the universe and those around her. The Spiderman line {With great power comes great responsibility.} Ladybug has shown she is not yet ready for the responsibility for choosing for the Bee Miraculous.
Exactly. That was so selfish and evil of Marinette to use her powers for her own selfish reasons and even let down Chloe who always looked up to her and wanted to do better because Ladybug was her favorite hero. She literally admired and was inspired by her and was grateful to be a hero right alongside her. Yet Ladybug chose to be selfish and give the miraculous to kagami just because she was on a date with Adrien meanwhile Chloe's parents were the ones akumatized
It was actually explained why she chose Kagami in the episode, LoveEater was eating people in love and Kagami and Adrien were on a date.
Marunii she didn’t chose Kagami for that reason lmao. She chose her because of jealousy and selfishness
Marunii That was just an excuse. She chose Kagami bc she was jealous
Marinette was wrong for choosing Kagami for selfish reasons, but she wasn't wrong for not choosing Chloe. I think ya'll Chloe stans forget that the last time the Bee Miraculous was being given to Chloe, it was a trap by Mayura because they'd been watching Chloe. And oh look, in part one of Miracle Queen, Mayura was there again, WAITING. She even almost escaped with the Bee Miraculous in Miraculer. So no, Marinette is not evil for not giving Chloe the Bee. Chloe is NOT entitled to a miraculous just because it was her parents akumatized, or for any other reason. That's dumb. It's also dumb to rag on Marinette for making a selfish, yes, but SAFER CHOICE. Kagami was the safer choice despite her identity being exposed to Hawk Moth, and as it turns out, it was the best choice to have the Dragon out in order to face Miracle Queen. How can anyone forget that Marinette was trying to LEAVE Kagami and Adrien but they insisted she come. You're talking as if she was trying to ruin their date the entire time, but she wasn't. It wasn't even a date at all. It was a gathering of friends until Marinette left, and it was still a gathering of friends after she left.
There was no decision between Adrien and Kagami that it was a date either. And while it was a selfish decision, it was the right one for numerous reasons. One, Kagami was the safer choice, two, the akuma was going after couples and people in love, and three, unknown to her, it allowed Adrien to get away and transform instead of possibly being targeted. It's Chloe's fault for getting upset about not being chosen despite the fact that Ladybug had already told her WHY she couldn't be Queen Bee again. It just was not safe for Chloe to have a miraculous. PERIOD. And how is it that you can call Ladybug evil for not giving Chloe the Bee Miraculous, but you say NOTHING about the evil acts that Chloe has done with the Bee, like I don't know, stinging a train operator and risking the lives of hundreds of people on the train just for glory. Smarty Pants is right, Chloe never had the heart to be a hero, she just wanted all the clout and glory of being one. Her character wasn't ruined, she had small specks of humanity in the vast sludge of evil and elitist brattiness that was her entire character. It's not like she was actually changing for the better and was actively being good. She wasn't. She was still being a jerk to everyone and even used her (supposed) status as a hero to demean others and make herself look superior.
Marinette didn't put her own wants and desires over the betterment of the universe and those around her. Chloe did that when she was pissed that she didn't get the Bee Miraculous like she wanted and joined Hawk Moth. The universe didn't tell Marinette a damn thing about choosing the Bee, it was her judgement and hers alone. Stop making up head canons and using them as facts. There was nothing mystical about her choosing an ally. Her judgement with the Bee actually saved them. Without the Dragon Hawk Moth would have won. They lost their allies, but that doesn't mean they can't choose more. You put a lot of blame on Marinette about her choice but you certainly don't give Chloe any flak for her decision to choose Hawk Moth. She chose to be a villain of her own free will. It's not like she was being akumatized at the time. She was just angry and Hawk Moth gave her a choice. Instead of being a hero and turning on Hawk Moth when she got the Bee or telling him no, she decided to spit in the world's face by helping a magical terrorist. Instead of putting Stan over Logic, use your brain and actually watch the episodes. I can easily call out Marinette for her mistakes and bad decisions but apparently you can't. Stop worshiping Chloe and look at the facts.
Ladybug decided she isn't trustworthy enough? Ahhahaha! No, she decided she choses Kagami instead because the girl got too close to Adrien. Giving how it was Chloe 's parents who got akumatized and how hard she tried to be reliable for Ladybug only to still be rejected, I personally see her having every right to reject all she learned and stick to hawk moth, it's not as if he even killed anyone through all those seasons. This also makes sense for Mari's character as her willing to break someone's day or steal yet another phone to not let Adrien know about her love nor let him go is constantly shown as one of her major flaws. Thus said, Venom status for Chloe is a great idea, though I can still see her redeemable qualities.
THANK YOU for finally mentioning this. It's like we get it, Chloe was a bully and people sometimes don't change but it wasn't all on her. Ladybug personally used her powers out of emotions and jealousy to do what she wanted to do ALL THE TIME and even chose Kagami (whose identity was already revealed as well) just so she wouldn't kiss Adrien even though these were Chloe's parents that were akumatized. It was literally a slap in the face to Chloe. She had all this potential because she looked up to Ladybug and Ladybug is the one that let her down the whole time.
I think one other way for her to still become a hero is first, for ladybug to apologize, and second, she Chloe doesn't accept it, she will be put into some sort of a "hurt innocent people" situation by Hawk Moth and will refuse not because she wants to pop off but because it's wrong, proving she is actually a good person and getting her miraculous for independent usage by Mari. But again, grey villain sounds good too.
It’s Ri listen, you,me or any other person can’t say that no one can makes mistakes, ladybug in my opinion did a mistake in miracle queen, but nobody is perfect like imagine the feeling of having a lot of responsibilities, protecting people, doing everything in the right way, and dealing with her trouble love story, when she broke down in love eater I realised the her job is harder than I thought, so I don’t blame her for choosing kagami over Chloe since she is and will always be a teenager girl, I think authors should explain more of Chloe, Marinette and adrien character developments
It’s Ri also, cat noir job is hard, and he have a hard life, and both they do mistakes some times, like I think he only is dating kagami because he is tired of not getting attention or because she is similar to ladybug, in another way he is playing with her feelings, that my opinion tho, since he also isn’t mature and teenager I can’t blame him too
Ladybug definitely makes bad choices a lot but I hope that she learns from the mistakes she is making and the writers don’t just pretend that she is perfect and has no flaws
The problem with Chloè is:
*The fact her character development was literally thrown out of a window.*
Ikr?
What's the point of building up a redemption for a character if later on they're just Going to throw it away? 🤷
Exactly
Pretty much
??? I don't agree with this. Zuko from Last Airbender betrayed his uncle at the end of season 2. However, Ladybug isn't as well written. You can have someone completely throw away their redemption but the temptation has to be believable.
I disagree because chloe only relly tried to change for ladybug not herself and thats not great.
But i understand her kinda being annoyed by ladybug but she desrvers a better redemption and is my favourite character on the show
It's not about wether Chloe should or shouldn't have a redemption arc. It's about the fact that the writers were giving her one and then backtracked. If their intention was to make her irredimable they should have made it clearer or, you know, at least drop hints she is. If so many people thought she was having a redemption and it wasn't the writers' intention that speaks of their incomletence not the viewers "overinterpreting" stuff. It seems to me that different writers had different ideas for her character and some were giving her a redemption arc and then Astruc came and said "don't do that" which is why she suddenly acts worse in season three. Her being an Anti-hero isn't a bad idea but I doubt the writers are going to go with that and again her cut short redemption arc is getting in the way. Having her be an anti-hero in a way that she would be purely self-centered would be retconning her development and would mean the viewers wasted their time watching the Queen Bee trilogy. Now no matter what the writers do it is either going to contradict something else or would look like them playing ping-pong with their plotlines a ball. Also the season three finale inevitably will cause a plot contravance because Chloe getting akumatised on purpose should get her arrested or sent to whatever the place for underage criminals is called in english but she won't because status Quo is king.
Marinette Nah people wanted her redemption for what they saw on the show, not fanfic. If creators really wanted to make her irredeemable, they should’ve done that way better. You just blind yourself from the trash development the show has
I totally agree. They managed badly her arc, thats why so many people were disapointed. It would have been so intresting to see a season were chloe starts as a hero but slowly desends to darkness. Like, she could have been a vigilante. She could have gone all out on akumatized people, she could be angry at Ladybugs failures and point them out throughout the season, she could step out of the line to achive her duty, and it could have pushed her to be a full blown villian by the end. But nope, she gets angry once and decides to go to the bad side even if she was rooting for being called by ladybug as a hero a few moments ago. Because what are motivations?
@Marinette
(Know that if you respond to this, I likely won't see it for a while because of fucked up comment notifications)
I absolutely DESPISE Chloe but I despise terrible writing more. I read ZERO fanfics or theories of any kind and I still started to sympathize with Chloe because of my own situation and the comparisons I saw between her and Catra (basically only shitty parental figures but that's not the point). You don't tell the audience why a character has personal justifications for their actions unless you want the audience to want them to be redeemed in the future. That's why people have a problem with Marinette and her behavior. She's already a good guy so her mistakes, selfishness, and meanness weigh a lot heavier, even if it's not as bad as Chloe (which is why people oft point out that Marinette's caused her fair share of akumas even though they acknowledge Chloe has caused most of the show's).
You may not have read any fan theories riere , but you probably have seen bully characters get redeemed before more then likely peppered your expectations with chole. The fact think having a "justifiable" reason for being antagonistic is telling enough.
Really this result of of both expectations and intentions not lining up.
First of all, you deserve a LOT more subscribers, secondly I honestly think that a Chloe should be a hero but I also don’t have any qualms with her being both a hero AND a villain. Good video man. Keep up the good work. Are you going to make a video on a theory or theories maybe about the Shanghai and New York specials?
Thanks! Hadn’t actually considered that but we might!
@@SmartyPantsYT Chloe is not a lying bitch like Lila
@@SmartyPantsYT yay
Reamber Subs don't matter
@@SmartyPantsYT how did master fu become the guardian anyway?
I feel Chloé will get a real redemption later on
Same but I feel like it won't be as redeeming unless she has a super big redemption arc but I feel like after the season 3 finale it will be hard for the fandom to accept her as a good character again which is sad because I liked Chloe when she wasn't a villain.
no the creator said no redemption arc bc he thinks Chloe doesn't deserve one. "shes evil" apparently....
And we will get a new queen bee and she will be akumatized again
I still hope one day she will emd up in a tough situation because of hawk moth and chose human lives against her egoism or powers. And well, it's not like Thomas is the one who writes the plot, right?
@@Soundwave1900 no Thomas astruc even said that they is now 4 main heros and chloe is a villain now
Chloe is literally the best character. She was evil, got a redemption and struggled. Thomas literally ruined the only character that made sense. The only other characters that really developed are Adrien and Kagami, although not as much as Chloe and Marinette got worse.
And now the fans are attacking him
No, no, no. What you don't get is the fact that Chloe didn't do it out of goodwill, but because she will be rewarded for it and want to impress ladybug. You can't make a characteristic redemption build on that base because it means, she never change.
The point of S3 is to prove that Chloe will be less dependent on Ladybug and realized she needs to do good thing because it's the right thing to do, not because fame or miraculous
cestalia That doesn’t change the fact that she’s the second best character of the show
cestalia she did it to feel important because she though she was useless and had no purpose
@@semolinalibra And it still didn't justify her action. Are you going to forget what she's done for the recognition? She creates havoc. Sure Ladybug disappoints her, but she also makes a mess (again, not that justify).
We know Chloe now feel upset for both side, Ladybug who ignored her and Hawkmoth who used her. This inner conflict makes a good development. I honestly believe we're still in her redemption arc.
I'm not going to judge anything until S4 comes out tho. S3 actually a good built up for character development.
I really like your take on what the show should do for her character. Having her her become a grey character I think would be a really good idea. Either that or getting a proper redemption arc later. This might just be her down spot before she properly realises what is good and bad and becomes a true hero. Either way I don’t think she should remain a boring villain when the other two options seem so much more interesting.
Thomas was talking about how “Chloe is bad and isn’t deserving of a miraculous or redemption arc” and just hating on her in general
Meanwhile, we have Marinette:
Using her powers for personal use
Stealing people’s phones
Breaking into Adrian’s houses
Made a whole schedule of Adrian’s routine
And basically acting stalker-ish/creepy about him
And the list could go on and on
Edit: Also forgot to mention that Marinette acts like she’s the only girl Adrian can talk to/give attention to. Like in the animation movie episode, if I remember correctly, she willingly joined in on Chloé’s plan to get Kagami away from Adrian. Chloé kinda gets a pass cause it’s, y’know Chloé, but Marinette is the supposed “hero” who we’re suppose to be rooting for. Adrian is his own person and can act on his own.
Edit 2: Happy 2022 everyone! I completely forgot about this comment I left on my mom’s account lmao- Anyways, I watched the newer Miraculous episodes and Marinette STILL hasn’t gotten better. In my opinion, she got even worse :/ This entire show is wasted potential at its finest tbh🚶♀️
Thank you. I've been waiting for someone to finally say it. Mari is a bad character, I honestly think she has OLD. Obsessive love disorder
Let's not forget harassing girls who flirt with Adrien, someone Marinette is not even romantically involved with.
I'd like to see someone defend marinette 💅
Marinette needs more development then Chloe
I honestly HATE the "you're cheating on me even though we're not even dating" trope so much...
I mean like Chloe was one of the ONLY people to resist an akuma it just doesn’t make sense why she would accept one later
Kitten Love she was heartbroken, wanted to prove herself to ladybug and wanted to be queen bee. Thus she was the perfect victim for Hawkmoth. But I do get what you are trying to say.
its shows how chloe slowly loses faith in lady bug her, her hero
Ikr
Bc thomas hated her and says she will always be “evil” to him which is a terrible to teach to kids which is what he says the show is directed to, that if people tell you the way your acting is unacceptable you shouldnt change because thats just who you are people should just hate you even if its something that stems off of family life its so sad that he has this mentality when yes there are a lot of adults and teens watching this show but lots of kids do too. Its a bad lesson and i hope he changes his mind and lets her have the redemption she deserves. I know shes just a cartoon character but she deserves to see her mistakes and learn and grow from them
No, marinette did that aswell
Personally, I feel like Marinette is portrayed as this hero who's always right in the end...when she really ISN'T. Everyone around her in the series supports her stalker-like, controlling behaviour towards Adrien, when in real life, that WOULDN'T be acceptable. To be honest, Astruc made it so that Adrien's more like a toy to be tossed around by Chloe, Marinette, and Kagami--not an actually deep character with feelings and potential to make his own choices.
Chloe's one of the deepest characters in Miraculous, in my opinion--she had every right to be mad! Seeing ladybug pick Kagami, one of her rivals, over her, when her own parents were akumatized, must've felt like a huge slap in the face. Even more, as she looked up to Ladybug.
The writers shouldn't portray Marinette as this always-right, pure person who's intentions are always good. She lets her emotions get to her, and uses her powers repeatedly for her own selfish uses. Please don't come at me with arguments such as "everybody makes mistakes", and "she's only 14" because she never LEARNS from them. 14 is a very aware age, and mistakes are expected to be learning experiences. In the show, Marinette makes a mistake (most likely stalking Adrien, getting jealous of Kagami, etc.), may or may not realize it, who knows, but then the writers make up for it by making her save the city. In real life, this kind of repetitive behavior...wouldn't get you very far in life. Marinette's character is just sending a bad message to easily-influenced little children.
People be like " aGe IsNt aN eXcUsE fOr ChLoE’s eViL bEhAvIoUr ", but they’re ready to use Marinette’s age as an excuse for her stalker side
Not related or anything but, I think that Chloe is just protective of Adrien and not actually in love with him. Since he was the one who was there for her ever since they were children
Am I the only one who doesn't shit mari and adrien. I mean its toxic cause mari stalks, prossive of him, and kinda creepy at times.
@@gabrieleronzino3745 exactly smh😒
THISS OMG
Her problem is even the creator hates her
The creater played her off as a bad person, thats what he was aiming for from the start
@@rrp1341 yeah it just sucks because shes really just a victim of bad/neglectful parenting and the fact that they even built in the clear path of character development only to rip it out from under her feet for no reason was not great imo
@@rrp1341 and like Thomas hating her makes it that less likely that she’ll end up a good person by the end of the show
@@wvan1174 fr, and there’s already a bitchy girl in the show, lila, they could have kept chloe’s development
@@wvan1174 I believe it was the other writers pushing Chloe's development but Thomas hated Chloe and was jealous about the rest of the team's involvement with the story, and thats how season 3 ended as he wanted it.
I really don’t like they way the show is portraying Chloe. In all honestly, Marinette is the real bad one here. She is SUPER selfish and has not changed AT ALL! It’s been three damn seasons. In Miracle Queen, the only reasom why Marinette didn’t choose Chloe was because she was so jealous of Kagami. Kagami is was on a date with Adrien and Marinette got jealous and chose to separate them. Chloe was the perfect ally. Her parents were akumatized and her power would of helped tremendously. But no, she decided to be selfish and take care of her own feelings rather than the safety of the city. Astruct praises Marinette too much and defends her actions a lot. I dont care if shes 14 or whatever. In those three seasons, she could have at least changed. It legit took the last episode of season 3 for her to realize it was time for her to move on and not be a creep. So everything that happened to Chloe was so unfair! And she was right to be angry at the end. Again, Marinette is the one at fault.
The reason why Marinette decided to use Kagami is because Marinette didn’t want Kagami and Adrien to be ate by LoveEater. Although, I do agree with the other points.
I totaly agree👌
I 100% agree but Marinette didn’t choose Chloe because hawkmoth knows who she is. She said so in Miraculer. But yeah, Marinette is a villain in disguise
Careful, the I can hear the Marinette stans coming for you😳
@@marianavillegas3000 frfrr, i'm scared what I have to say about Marinette because of her stans lmaoo
I disagree, Chloe made it pretty clear in Malediktator that she didnt want to be a hero to get clout and show off, but rather showing off and getting clout was her only reference point for how a person could get respect. Her mother who she seems to respect above everyone else doesnt even know her name. Her father only ever tries to buy her off all the time. Adrien seems to see the good in her and knows shes misguided, and I think being Queen Bee was a positive way for her to gain the love and acceptance she doesnt get from her family. Consider this: why does Chloe love Ladybug so much? I believe its because Ladybug saves and forgives everyone no matter how badly they act while akumatized. She wants someone who can understand that she doesnt really want to be mean, she just doesnt know how to change her track now that everyone already hates her from trying to imitate her mothers attitude. Everytime Ladybug snubs her, she seems genuinely destroyed by it and nearly always breaks down to tears. And when she was first given the Bee Miraculous in Malediktator, she hesitated before taking it and looked to Ladybug for reassurance, only taking it after she nods. Chloe is a character who desperately wants to be needed and useful because she feels worthless but doesnt know how to do it in a healthy way, and when Ladybug abandoned her she went to the only other person who seemed to need her, and even that I believe was mostly out of one of her famous overreactions where she lashes out at the people who hurt her. And even afterwards, she doesnt swear revenge on Ladybug like Lila, instead she says she wants to take the Bee Miraculous and continue being a hero, and then doesnt resist when Ladybug says she cant let her do that, and then runs off looking destroyed (check her face in that scene when she runs by). She still wants to be a good person.
All of that is to say nothing of the fact that shes the only person to ever resist being Akumatized, something neither Adrien nor Marinette were able to do (Marinette didnt even resist) and also rejected the first time she was offered the Bee Miraculous by the evil side, showing that she *doesnt* just want to be Queen Bee, she wants to be a *Hero*.
I do think her redemption arc should have been very drawn out, starting with her as essentially a conflicted anti hero and eventually learning to be a real hero both in and out of costume. They were already starting on this, with her doing things that were technically "nice" but in mean ways, like not telling Adrien after discovering Marinettes crush on him but phrasing it in a mean way. It would have been quite interesting for her to learn over time that there are other ways to get respect that dont require a costume, and slowly changing her civilian ways as well. Maybe even Sabrina could get a Miraculous too and their relationship dynamic could change.
Even when rewatching season 2 i kinda felt with the episode despair bear that Chloe only had the party to get back on adrian good books and did try and be nice but wanted to do it to show Adarin she was the good guy even with the end of Malediktator giving chloe a party would never change her right away as sometimes people change when they see what they did was wrong or realize what they did was wrong who sometimes cant see the error of their actions
I wouldn't exactly call that not caring about clout.
@@fightingmedialounge519 I think the distinction is that she cares about clout because she has never been given any other form of love. This is less evil than say, the stereotypical "wanting clout for power" or "wanting clout to be able to use it" because her motive is not inherently bad. She can grow to seek love in healthier ways, whereas a character who wants clout for power would likely abuse their power no matter what way they obtained it.
@@twilight3272 except doing for love can easily be twisted into a negative desire .
I believe that Chloe can still have an excellent redemption arc and that it could be very similar to Zuko's redemption arc. She was first the "bad guy" or Marinette's antagonists, but we saw that Chloe did have good in her from the many episodes in the second season. Then she slowly becomes a better person but then, is giving the chance to have everything she ever wanted(being a miraculous holder) and goes to the side of evil, just like Zuko in the second season's finale. If done right, she could learn that her ways are wrong( which could be done with her leaving Paris for some time and Thomas giving her an episode or two of her journey outside of Paris OR it could be done with Chloe changing schools but still in Paris so she could see how her actions have grave consequences on her and others. Through this, she could become a better person with morals and maybe even a hero. But I do like your anti-hero theory tho.
Thomas astruc said that they are now 4 main heroes and one of them is a villain chloe is a villain now
The legend of Aang was ART, a wonderfull show that will always be remember and loved by the fans.
Ladybug is a wanna be show, that treats kids like idiots and with a terrible writting... There is no compare, which is a shame, cause I adore your idea.
I really wish y’all stop comparing chloe to Zuko. Zuko is Zuko and Chloe is not him. I don’t think that Thomas would do what y’all said because he’s giving us a different side of people not wanting to change.
Rachel Marie Cabera Pacheco Your attitude is disgusting. Avatar should not be used to drag other writers. Thomas has a point when he said that kids understood the show better than some adults. ☕️
@@k.d3983 You know what? Okay, I am sorry, I did not mean to use Avatar for that, but again, there is no comapre, Avatar is a great show, with Ladybug, I think kids are smarter than people give them credict to. Call me nasty, but not for nothign the fan base fo the show decresed and again, if Thomas wnated her as a full vilian, he coudl have leave her like that, instead of her background and she slowly learnign of her mistakes, and if we comapre her to Lila...again, I didn't ask Chloe to be a super good girl, it just that even Thomas said she was going to be a Frienemie of the protagonist, yet he even backoff from his own words...Again, the show is kidn of bland and an antihero like Chloe would bring some spicy in the show...(or again, he could have focus on make better the other heros, Nino and Alya, what are their thougths of them being heros)...
I was a fan of this show, a guilty pleasure, but I eventually got annoyed and no longer followed the show...
Chloe was honestly a really interesting character but her character arc was ruined by the season 3 finale, she understood that she couldn’t be queen bee by the end of miraculer and was the first character to resist an akuma
The show began to show that Chloe wanted to be important. She felt useless and just wanted to mean something to someone. Her mother is an absolute bratty rich fashion designer and her father is a pushover corrupt politician.
It made sense to see her as the teenager lashing out because of the inherent parental issues. A redemption arch made sense... but then Marinette had the wonderful idea of making Chloe hate her again just to put her with her horrible woman of a mother... WHAT!?!? Marinette fed the demon of a character instead of bringing out the light like she normally does.
That was ridiculous for me and showed me that Thomas Astruc is not a very good writer. (Not to mention the terrible episode listing and the inconsistencies in characters.)
Thats some of my two cents anyway
You forgot a third group. The one that Believes Chloé is still on a true Redemption arc. And the show is hitting every point as needed.
This! I can get why she sided with Moth but I can also see she doesn't actually care about feelings of the people around her yet. When she will state it clearly she understand that and choses to help instead of hurt, then she will deserve the Bee. As for now she's still basically throwing a tantrum despite having a very good reason to do so when her parents got akumatized.
Finally, someone who got the point! Yes, this whole time Chloe always expecting something, she doesn't do it out of goodwill.
She needs to realise that being good doesn't need reward
Didn't the show's creator outright say he wanted to keep Chloé as a bad person?
@@Saturnthroughstars I think it something along line "She didn't change because she didn't want".
Also, it can probably mean she remains brat, but a rather good brat. Chloe becomes a goody kid probably is bad writing.
Can be interpreted in many way. I'm honestly not sure where that even come from
What like the S3 finale being a sort of relapse or something? I'm curious to hear about what this third group thinks.
Well I really want Chloe to develop to a good person. It really is boring and empty to have her just always be the villain and whenever we think she is changing to the better she ends up becoming worse. Whenever I start having hope that Chloe will change, she just escalates to the worst. The writers AND Thomas astruc should defenitely consider this and think about it, don't we already have too much villains?, Also, I am really surprised of how underrated this channel is! It deserves more subs.
@Marinette you know...you are practically in every miraculous comment section I've seen; and in each one you're always disputing with someone who's critiquing the show. I understand loving something and not wanting "negativity" surrounding it but is it really necessary to always be combating people on their opinions?
Honestly, at this point it's making you look obsessive. And that isn't a good look.
A creator should be allowed to do what they want with their property, but people still have a right to speak about it and have their opinions. Just as how you feel their is nothing wrong, others may not see that as so.
In my opinion, they wasted a good redemption arc and an opportunity for character development. Tbh I wouldn't even care if Chloe was a gray morality character. What doesnt make sense is for her to turn into a black/white villain since we spent an ENTIRE SEASON showing how Chloe isnt plain evil and introducing a REAL evil person (Lila).
@Marinette Yeah, you sound a little unhinged if you're obsessively replying to every criticism of those show. It's not that serious
@Alicia Chiminje felix is def a villain tho and i dont trust emilie
Personally, I would like some form of redemption for Chloe. I mean she doesn't have to become wholly good. I agree with Thomas that Chloe's whole stint as Queen Bee was a way for her to get recognition, but at the same time, I don't think she is entirely bad. If I recall, Thomas said none of the people on Miraculous are really evil, but have reasons for the bad things they do. Not sure if that is accurate though. I do like your idea of her becoming a gray character
🤔how do I make her a great character 😅
Nah, Thomas has reportedly very clearly stated that "Chloe is evil no matter what and doesn't deserve to be redeemed."
Edit: He claimed this via Twitter.
2:05 except we see in other episodes Chloe is capable of remorse, she does care and her negative attitude stems from a sense of inferiority as she feels that if she isn't special or powerful she'll be alone or abandoned much like how her mother always forgets her. Personally I think the writer is just too lazy or set in his ways to try.
Except having guilt doesn't make you good person. Just look at thanos.
No. Astruc did not backtrack, he simply never changed the characters who interact with Chloé, they never scold her enough to point that her real problem is bullying NOT being useless. Giving her a a Miraculous with no moral sense just inflated her ego, and she already though she deserved anything as the Mayor 'a daughter
I mean.. But are Marinette and Chloe any different from each other. Both are extremely selfish (Marinette even uses her powers selfishly. She's just more creepy), and I'm pretty sure Marinette has an akumatization body count higher than Chloe.
She doesn't. And the ones she caused were much more indirect, she always felt bad and, most importantly, she fixed the problem every time.
Joe Devaney But she never learns from her mistakes cuz she makes them over and over again. Chloe is a way better character than Marinette, she’s like the worst character of the show. While Chloe is the second best and Nathalie the first best character. Usually villains and anti-heroes are way better than heroes. If Chloe is ever gonna be redeemed, I hope she won’t change too much.. I won’t love her anymore if she’ll be 100% good.
@@gabrieleronzino3745 You're a sad person if you think villains are better than heroes, and the fact that you do belies your argument.
Joe Devaney Lmao what ? A character doesn’t need to be good to be loved. In DC fandom everyone loves Joker even though he’s a psychopath mass murder who smile when kills people. Doesn’t mean they’d support a killer in real life 😂. You’re sad if you think people can’t like villains cuz they’re evil and that they’re supposed to love heroes cuz they’re good. This is just fiction, not real life.. there’s literally no problem in loving villains if it’s fiction. Chloe is a bad person but a great character, while Mari is a good person but a bad character. Learn the difference between reality and fiction. You don’t like villains ? Cool, that’s your opinion and I respect it. I, just like tons of other people, love villains and that’s perfectly fine since it’s just a tv show. Villains can be loved too
Joe Devaney wtf are you talking about? You are obvliously 12 since u still think that world is divided in good and bad and if someone likes villains they are horrible people. Even if you like only good people why do you like Marinette? She has done so many selfish actions akumatised other people and would sabotage Kagami 3 times. You can talk for whole day how “cute” she is, but her bad actions are outweighting good ones. And also as character she is Mary Sue pretty much despite having flaws. She is loved by everyone and never faces consequences everyone sees her as perfect human being. So yeah shut up
I don't like Chloe because she's a spoiled brat but I don't hate her like I do Lila because Lila is just pure evil - in fact, I am a little sympathetic towards Chloe for having a deeply awful mother who can't even be bothered to remember her name.
Chloe could possibly get a redemption arc but it would have to be in the hands of a really good writer and let's face it Thomas Astruc is not a good writer at all.
The most true words I have heard😀👏
I absolutely agree.
Aesthetical Dreams So every time you see someone disliking something about the show, you’re just like " sToP WaTcHiNg " or " YoU aReNt A tRuE fAn ". People are allowed to dislike things on a show. We’re not sheep without a brain like you, who love everything about the show without complaining anything. Fans know defects and good things on a show, something you clearly can’t do. A true fan isn’t someone who likes everything. People can still watching the show to see if the writing could get any better or if Astruc will succeed in having a good development ( probably not, he doesn’t know what character development is ). Thomas is also a jerk to his fans on Twitter ( and not just the hateful ones, also the good ones )
Marinette Thomas is a terrible writer. We were literally hints that MAYBE JUST MAYBE Chloe could actually change and become a good person. Of course that takes fucking time as the character changes their entire way of being. Good character development takes time, such as Zuko’s character development which spans almost the entire span of ATLA in contrast to those “crappy Barbie movies” in which the villains change in an instant. That type of development is terrible because we don’t get to see the villain’s struggle to change and their growth. OFC if Chloe WAS truly the irredeemable character then what was the point of Lila even existing then? All those hints of possible development weren’t necessary. The idea of someone (besides Gabriel ofc) using a miraculous for selfish reasons COULD have been explored with but that would affect the precious status quo that Thomas is too afraid to stray from. Seriously ofc Chloe is going to be terrible at first she has terrible parents which results in her being an attention seeker. Her own mother can’t even memorize her own name and she has a father who pretty much buys her love because he’s the mayor of the city and probably doesn’t make time for her so he makes up for it by spoiling her. Hell, the idea of her being a morally grey character is great. It sends the message that people can change but not fully that change requires self will. Since apparently Chloe might be the one with a secret sibling (who she probably doesn’t know about) could give something for people and kids even to relate to: separated/ divorced parents which obviously affects a child’s mental state. It is implied that Chloe’s parents (pre-Miracle Queen) have a terrible relationship and are obviously separated. Remember her being an attention seeker pretty much is why she is/was Queen Bee in the first place : Chloe believes she is useless. By her being Queen Bee she feels as though she has a purpose and that is her feeling of reward. Chloe just wants attention
Marinette Also MLB has a “villain of the week type of plot” it would be better if we saw more plot diversity or episodes focusing of characters other than Marinette, or even just an episode of Master Fu just teaching Marinette guardian things and exploring the lore better would be better than whatever the hell The Puppeteer 2 was. Seriously we have an entire cast of diverse characters how about they exist for another purpose besides for getting akumatized
I have to make a response. This is coming from a point of literary criticism. A character requires development if they are an important part of the media and there is something there that can be developed. You can't write a protagonist who doesn't develop in any shape or form, otherwise they remain a one dimensional slate who only furthers the story by actively engaging in the events that occur in the series, instead of futhering the story by actively affecting the way in which they engage in the events that occur in the series.
This does not necessitate that every flaw of this character must be fixed, that is now how humans work. If you want to present a realistic character, you need to understand that some flaws are inherent and will always remain. However, as humans, they also overcome them. Some never do, which is essential if the character only exists as a villain or a character that doesn't affect the plot significantly.
Chloe isn't a villain. She's a person who does bad things. She wasn't written into the story as the main source of anarchy or chaos, those positions are taken by Hawkmoth and Lila. The existence of her storyline is rather cliche, a spoilt rich child who has a superiority complex, but that doesn't equal to directly ruining a person's reputation or manipulating the emotions of vunerable people. She's already presented as being a better person that the villains established in the series.
She's an important character and her remaining a selfish brat won't provide a new engagement for the story, she doesn't need to remain that way as Astruc has already established a difference between her and the other villains, a fundamental one that involves not crossing the boundary between being mean and being malicious.
Therefore, development would be more than preferable for such an important character. Not only this, but as many commenters have mentioned, Chloe has a broken home. She has a reason to behave in the way she does that perfectly explains why she has a superiority complex and why she is so bratty. Overcoming this vicious cycle of being ignored by ones parents and only having material items as company would not only provide a good message to the "children" Astruc talks about, but would actually explain how ones fixation to the past isn't a mortal flaw and can be overcome. Gabriel Agreste already shows not being able to, why should Chloe also not need to?
She has also resisted an akuma, stood in front of her friend Sabrina to protect her from an akuma, idolised a superhero who did good things, returned her miraculous when asked. Her character is not black, nor white, it's grey. A grey character doesn't have to be a wholly evil one, Astruc messed up trying to present the good side of Chloe because these good actions actively show her overcoming the things that held her back. Her arrogance when it came to returning the akuma, the very thing she had always dreamed of having after being humiliated on live TV. This isn't her simply being nice, this is her overcoming an instrisic flaw that builds her character.
The need for approval, the need to be appreciated, all of which stems of a life she couldn't previously overcome. It's development. And then Astruc just went screw it and decided Chloe actually could never change because some people never do, and that she's still a brat who can't overcome her flaws? Despite dedicating two whole episodes to her attempting to, which could easily be built upon.
This is bad writing, not an attempt at realism. Chloe's character should have been written differently if they wanted to show an iredeemable character. Any development seemed to be added to push a boring storyline that would engage viewers and then build a facade of progression up, before knocking it down for shock value. Astruc also clearly doesn't know what a villain is, Marinette stalks her crush and tries to break into his house, smells his things, used her authority as Ladybug to separate Kagami and Adrian, has caused people to become akumatised, and this behavior is never condemned.
Yet Chloe's should? This proves to me that Astruc is not interested in writing a realisitc character, but forcing the characters to be a certain way in order to push his story. Chloe has to be a bad person, Marinette has to be a hero.
I agree, but disagree half of it. As we can see, Chloe also a rather opportunistic and love fame. When she helps people, she wants 1) To be recognized, 2) Getting Ladybug's praise. She does not do it on the base of goodwill.
The reason why her development is tilted is because she is disappointed with Ladybug. However, this isn't that bad because Chloe will no longer cling to Ladybug and probably tired of Hawkmoth shit. She can be her own hero, doing something good because she wants to help someone (probably Adrian, Sabrina or her parent).
However, Chloe resist Akuma is huge point to her future development. If they're smart writer, they use it on S4. I hold my judgement after S4 because I can see many type of writing being used for it
@@cestalia Yeah, I agree that her motivation towards doing good things is often influenced by fame. But there are scenes where she does good things without the need for recognition, as I've re-iterated, she gave up her miraculous. In the "Queen Wasp" episode, she's driven by wanting affection from her mother. She does bad things to obtain this, such as putting train passengers in direct danger. She's humiliated on live TV and still chooses to give up the one thing that she chases after, the person that is the source of her rude behaviour and her desire for approval, in order to do something good instead of wanting fame or recognition. A character shouldn't be portrayed as overcoming the intrinsic flaw that builds their negative character if they don't actually overcome it.
I am looking too deep into the character, Astruc clearly doesn't appear to care about highlighting negative behaviour or leaving the status quo. Maybe Chloe just did one good thing and then decided to remain a bad person, who knows? I agree that there is a need for her to stop idolising Ladbug, however this could have been represented in that very episode, where she realises that approval shouldn't be the only thing that drives her to do good. Not doing a 180 and being constrained by a flaw she was overcoming, and which I believe necessary to be overcome for the character to improve. I definitely hope that future development occurs, because the show is becoming stale and repetitive, and no characters are actually developing. If there wasn't a reveal or love squae, the show wouldn't be as popular. A good show should be able to interest its viewer outside of twists and surprises.
@@seikoshinobaka9139 That's why I wait for S4 because as you say, it will be great development. I do will be disappointed if they don't give her development.
We know one day Marinette will get Akumatized. Chloe and Adrian will be the last one standing. There's also Felix who actually fulfill anti-hero character more.
But when you put her in the same show as a guy with a dead mother (as far as he knows) and extremely controlling father but who's still a nice guy regardless and a girl with an even *more* controlling mother who's blunt and insentitive but ultimately a good person, Chloé suddenly seems not so sympathetic by comparison. That why I could never bring myself to sympathise with Jack from Mass Effect; because she had a horrible childhood, we're apparently supposed to forget that she's a convicted sociopath who's committed every crime in the book, even though several other characters have been through even worse and didn't turn out nearly as bad.
THANK YOU, YES. THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO CONVEY TO PEOPLE!
I'm all for Chloe getting a redemption arc, because she's got the makings of someone that can change if given the proper encouragement & guidance. Even if she's not ready to be a hero of the people instead of herself, it's a step in the right direction. Character Development exists for a reason.
Ladybug could've been that person! Hell, if she won't, you'd think at least Chat Noir would since he understands her on a level nobody else can. Both of them come from broken homes, both suffer the psychological & emotional abuse from at least one parent. (Not to mention all the other things that make them similar)
It's been proven that she can make the right decision but nobody's letting her grow as a person from it & that just pisses me off.
Lila is so much WORSE than Chloe! If there's one person on this series who shouldn't get a redemption arc cause "they'll never change" its LILA ROSSI.
#TeamChloe 🐝
I love Chloe as a character! She’s like that classic popular friend that’s the first day super nice to you and the second day she’s acting like she never knows you. I personally think alongside the mix of being a villain and hero would be amazing for the show since no one would be able to guess when she’s gonna get akumatized and when she’s not.
Chloe is my favourite character tbh. She's better than Lila and when I saw Chloe cry because she hurt her dad's feelings and her not having friends, I felt bad for her. I hope they make her kind someday.
In my opinion it’s not that Chloe NEEDS a redemption arch it’s that she DESERVES one.
Btw this is not meant to be rude so don’t come at me! it’s just my opinion:)
Unpopular opinion I think: I feel like Chloé is pretty much one of the best written characters. Chloé is rude, arrogant, and acts like a brat. Her father is the mayor and spoils her with luxuries only to satisfy her. Her mother is narcissistic and does not acknowledge Chloé that much. Chloé is self entitled and had deeply respected Ladybug. She treats her own friend like a slave and is only nice to Adrien.
If you think deeply about it, Chloé has a lot of depth to her. She acts self entitled to make sure she’s above everyone else in order to feel better about herself. Her parents neglect her true wishes and probably don’t even actually try talking with her to help with her issues. She respected Ladybug because she truly looked up to her and wanted to become a hero to be useful and to make herself feel better. She doesn’t treat Sabrina right because she wants to be on a higher level than her but still wants a friend. Adrien and Chloé knew each other as kids, and as Adrien said Chloé was his first ever friend so it could be the same way for Chloé which is why she’s so nice to him. Chloé is happy that Adrien considered her as a friend truly and trusts him.
I’m someone who doesn’t really believe the idea all evil people have a good inside them. But I do believe that they all have a weakness to them. I felt like I could understand Chloé’s weakness as it seems she has low self esteem deep down. She believes she’s utterly useless, and tries to make it clear that she’s on a higher level than everyone else with her. She tells her Daddy when she has an “issue”, and doesn’t count on herself to try and fix it. She doesn’t believe that she’s capable of many things but wants to be. Chloé is without a doubt a bad person. But seeing her faults makes us understand her more, and it makes her more human. Villains don’t need sympathy, they need others to understand who they are, what the do, and why they do. I felt like I was able to understand Chloé even though she wasn’t necessarily a good person. (Oof lol sorry for my mega long comment XD)
tbh I think that kagami is the reflection of ladybug/marrinette her name LITERALLY means mirror in Japanese or Chinese (dont remember) no wonder Adrien likes kagami.
Not to mention, Kagami makes it clear about her statement that Marinette has to choose between Luka or Adrian. She has to set her priority straight first.
I love how straightforward Kagami is
Yup.
@@cestalia she is queen, an icon.
What I think is this is a example of how Mari will change because she said being a super hero changed her . And That leads me to believe every charter can change even cholie
But not Lila.
Except Mari has been acting worst ever since she got her miraculous. Like stalking Adrien or stealing phones and before you say well she’s gotten better the season 3 finale shows just how much worst she has gotten. Like she had the perfect chance to end the whole fight but didn’t because she didn’t want to have Chloe‘s help and she went for Kagami because she was going to kiss Adrien.
To be honest marinette is kind of a hypocrite i mean she pulls kagami into a fight even though howkmoth knows her identity then says it to dangerous to give chloe her miraculous because howkmoth knows her
I actually noticed something about Chloe: she can play either side of the coin depending on which one reaps a larger reward for her. Evidence A: Queen Bee. Like you said, she never really cared for doing her job or saving people, like Ladybug or, say, Ryuko. The only reason she wanted to be a superhero was for the bragging rights. Chloe thought being a superhero would earn her fame and fortune, when in reality she had it all wrong. She lost her powers for a good reason, and frankly it’s for her own good. If she stayed a hero, then Hawk Moth would keep targeting her and put her life at risk.
Evidence B: Miracle Queen. I see a lot of people asking why she refused an akuma only to accept one later. Simple: Chloe still thought that she was a superhero. Her goal was to prove herself to Ladybug, and again fame came into it. She saw being a hero as the better side, as at that moment in time she could get more out of it than being a supervillain. However, once Chloe was fired as a hero, the dark side offered a better reward: revenge. Chloe, as you also pointed out, is one of the only characters that doesn’t fit in to the black and white dynamic that Miraculous has. She doesn’t care for what’s deemed right or wrong: she only cares for what SHE wants to do. This is a trait Chloe’s shown since Season 1. She rarely thinks about or considers the consequences of her actions and behaviour. She’s very much an opportunist. If Chloe can gain an advantage in a certain situation, she will.
This is what I believe drove her to become Miracle Queen. Whenever Hawk Moth approached her to help him bring down the others, she agreed. It’s not because she’s an “evil” person: it’s because at that moment, her opportunistic side kicked in. Chloe saw that, in her current situation, being a supervillain would aid her more than being a superhero. She would her powers back, she would get revenge on her former idol, she would gain notoriety and become infamous. That overruled her premonitions about the perks of being a Miraculous Holder, and therefore she decided to jump ship. I would say her personality and character is more akin to Catwoman than Venom: she can play either side, just as long as there’s something in it for her.
Finally a reasonable comment.
I agree. A big part of her is how opportunistic she is. Sure she can protect others or has a painful past, even a dysfunctional family like Adrien. Doesn't mean she has to be "redeemed". If she's happy with what she has, where she is, and what she's done, that's fine by me.
Jecily E Yeah exactly. While it would be nice for her to get a redemption arc, if Chloe is happy the way she is right now and doesn’t want to change then there’s no reason for her to.
Edit: THOMAS I WAS KIDDING I DIDN’T MEAN MAKE HER A SADISTIC PSYCHOPATH-
I think that this whole series is based on Thomas astruc's past present and future life, honestly speaking. I think he literally lives his life through these characters. That's why there is no proper progression of the episodes. If it was another author writing this show, the progression would be very different.
The problem being... Thomas baited the fandom throughout the whole 3rd season! And now he's defending himself as "You were wrong in believing Chloe as more than a 2 dimensional villiain only because I made you think so!"... I'm starting to think Astruc is becoming a lazy writer... I mean, there were so many directions the story could have taken at the endo of s3:
-Chloe waiting for the last moment to bait out of the fight justifying herself by saying that Hawmoth LITERALLY HAD HER PARENTS AS HOSTAGES SO SHE HAD NO CHOICE
-Chloe throwing her frustrations for not being chosen on Sabrina causing her to become the "boss fight" of s3, causing a breakup between the two and finally Sabrina becoming her own person instead of just a mushroom growing on Chloe's ego (also possible ripercussion in Chloe facing solitude and becoming a better person, just sayin')
-Chloe recieving the bee miraculous and then refusing to help Hawkmoth in a last effort to impress LB, only for her to ask the miraculous back, Chloe refusing and becoming a heroine on her own... a bitter heroine but a heroine nonetheless (or a anti-heroine)
But no... Astruc decided "Naaaah! Character development? Never heard of it! Better stick to the same old..."
You know in the season 3 finale I don't blame Chloe for betraying ladybug I would probably do the same because of a simple reason : ladybug kept lying to her every time Chloe asked if she could use the miraculous ladybug lied to her. Chat noir kept telling her that she should tell Chloe but she never did and at some point Chloe got fed up
she isn't "always been bad" many of you guys forget WHY she acts like this
Mari can't give Chloe miraculous because it's too dangerous because everyone knows her indentity but didn't she give kagami tha miraculous when hawkmoth knows her identity?? And that was just for kagami was with Adrien . Mari IS a bad character.
Her's a big flaw in my opinion:
(Roll with me here) Why weren't Alya, Nino, and Chloe given their miraculous by Fu and actually allowed to keep their Miraculous? (Say for maybe Nino) I honestly don't see a reason to why they didn't do this, other then keeping the status quo of the show. This could let us see who Rena Rouge, Carapace, and Queen Bee really are apart from their civilian identities. Cuz think about it, what is queen bee and ladybug got along, but Marinette and Chloe hated each other? That would add a neat piece of irony and give way for Marinette and Chloe to get to know each other better through seeing the best version of themselves. Both Marinette and Chloe could be a catalyst for each other to become better people. You can also raise the stakes with Hawkmoth ACTUALLY become more powerful with Mayrua. Making more heroes necessary.
You know what? Humor me for a bit longer. What if, what if Chloe found out that Adrian was cat Noir? Rather than the first identity reveal to be between ladybug and Cat Noir, what if it was Chloe and Adrien? Maybe at this point in the story, Chloe has either developed genuine feelings for Adrian, or has decided to drop her Crush entirely. How cute would that be? Adrian finally having the Chloe he knew back when they were little, and Chloe having a genuine friendship. They could tease each other about their double lives, cover for each other, heck, Chloe could even tease him about his ladybug Crush. They can genuinely get closer to each other in a non-romantic way. And how do you think Marinette would take that?
Heck, you can even keep the whole " giving miraculouses to a person for a single mission, then get the miraculous back afterwards" but instead of just ladybug it's everybody on the team giving out the miraculouses. What if cat Noir gave a miraculous to Nino? If queen bee gave one to Sabrina? Rena Rouge to Marinette? Carapace to Alia? they can all have unique reasons specific to their character and experiences, for giving a miraculous to someone. you can have the class be closer to each miraculous wielder for different reasons so choosing a wielder will feel more unique.
OMGOODNESS could you imagine a Kwami swap ep with all these Miraculous in play?!? What if like Adrian was sick or hurt or something, so Chloe either combined the Bee and the Cat or was just the Cat? What if the others swapped in a similar way the show did, Marinette got the fox, Alya you got the turtle, and Nino got the ladybug? And also, you know, NOT HAVE THE EPISODE BE FILLER AND ACTUALLY HAVE THE CharacterS GROW BY TRUSTING EACH OTHER MORE.
Guys, I'm sad now.....
I guess because putting multiple miraculous user itself is already a risk.
Remember that Hawkmoth only chase two people because there's only two miraculous user. Imagine if there's multiple, finding their identity will be much easier.
@@cestalia You know I totally forgot to address that thank you for reminding me 😃
If more Miraculous users were in play it would raise the stakes even further when secret identities become an issue. Say Adrian and Chloe are over joyed to know each other's identity, but when master Fu finds out he warns them of the dangers, it can put them even more on edge. You can even justfi the weird " if you find out the other secret identity, you have to give back your miraculous." (Which was never said before hand) by MAKING this such an issue by having him threaten to take them away. Heck have that be a driving reason why LB and CN can't know each other's identity.
If it was shone just how powerful the akuma have become, and how much Ladybug and Chat Noir were struggling, then new heroes would be necessary. It can put Master Fu even more on edge.
(Side note. Why the heck did master Fu give out the Black Cat? I love Chat but there's no reason specifically to give out that one. I actually find it more dangerous to give out the two most powerful miraculous. But idk)
Imagine this type of writing damn
YES I NEED A FIC ABOUT THIS NOW
I'd really love to see Chloe being a better person, I still do. But I wouldn't mind her staying as a villain. It's just that her downfall seemed so... sudden.
Maybe when Ladybug gave the miraculous to Kagami instead of Chloe, she could've confronted Ladybug on why she gave the miraculous to Kagami instead of her even though both of their identities have been revealed. Then Chloe decides to give up on Ladybug because she thinks that Ladybug finds her worthless and Hawkmoth finds her and manipulates her into joining the dark side. Idk I'm not really good at writing, but I'd still like some development before her akumatization and her downfall.
In order to be a hero, you must have good intentions, want to help people and be pure of heart....
two words
BOOSTER GOLD
Chloe has always been my Fav from the start idk why 😂
Let's not forget: like Chloe, The Venom symbiote once admired peter for his willing purpose as a hero and wanted to stick with him throughout the journey (literally) but got violently rejected and felt a strong resentment towards Spidey for it
Idea: Chloe should get her hands on either the Rooster miraculous, or the peacock.
Both play to her personality if she can't be Queen Bee.
Whether a hero or a villian, Chloe definately needs a miraculous of her own in order to seem like she actually has a purpose in the show at this point.
I don’t know why, but whenever Chloe gets her miraculous I feel happy for her. Like you can tell she missed Pollen her Kwami.
I think it could many ways. She could be a gray character in a world of black and white characters (which i think is a really cool concept). She could be bad (which I’m not a huge fan). Or she could be good but not have the same motivations as all the other hero’s which could make her sorta an outcast and have to learn to accept herself (I like this one because it could show kids that it’s okay to have your own reasons to do something. And I really like it when the characters teach kids that something is okay (like guy girl friendships with no romantic feeling or it’s okay to be yourself))
I don't like Chloe as a person, but I find her to be an interesting character. She doesn't need a redemption arc, but it would be nice to see.
One more thing, her transformation to Queen Bee is literally amazing
I think chloe should be redeemed! It doesn't mean she has to stop acting like an entitled snoby rich kid, she has never been evil, maybe rude, blunt, and even a. Bully but that's not being evil. Evil is Lila. Evil is hurting people on purpose even when there's no gain. Chloe usually just says mean things that hurt ppls feelings, lila literally pretends someone pushed her down a flight of stairs, now thats evil. Chloe put the ppl in the train at risk but not intentionally, or with the purpose of putting lives at risk for fun, it was more of a, I didn't think this bad idea though and i she jst wanted to be part of ladybugs crew. 🥺😭😭 poor chloe. 😢 she genuinely apologized to ladybug. I am not justifying her behavior but rather having compassion for someone who needs guidance.
Personally, I feel like the writers have written themselves into a corner with Chloe. They made her into a stereotypical mean girl then did the surprised pikachu face when they couldn't, or didn't want to redeem her. But saying Chloe is "evil" is stupid, she's a bratty high schooler, not a hardened criminal! She doesn't need to be a hero, it wouldn't make sense as she's revealed her identity. But the idea of her being an anti hero sounds awesome! The show desperately needs a likeable non hero, and Chloe has the potential as long as the writers feel like giving her positive traits or strengths. Likable villains are the best tbh, just look at Jesse and James from Pokemon.
anti heroes are amazing and iconic that's why Chloe is a fan favorite and I liked the idea of her being on a team of her own
The problem with Chloe and any other character who’s development was shafted is Astruc himself.
If ONLY Astruc had gone with this idea instead of introducing freaking Zoe.
You are officially my favorite person
I really dont like Chloe, but the show would just feel so incomplete without her.
My theory for season 4:
It's been rumoured that there might be a kinder, more living and more caring queen bee in season 4. Whilst this is a good way for ladybug to repair some mistakes, imagine how betrayed Chloe would feel if this happened. Also since Hawk Moth fixed the peacock miraculous, if he fuses it with the Butterfly Miraculous he could akumatize Chloe AGAIN but this time she could become almost undefeatble since she had her trust in Ladybug ripped right out again.
Permanent Volpina would have made a better Villain. Queen Bee could have been our Zuko and Volpina our Azula.
I kinda Want to see marinette and Chloe vs Lila while Rena Rouge vs Volpina
Chloe isn’t an evil person, she’s a bully & obnoxious. But NOT evil, she’s just a girl who’s been emotionally abused by her Mom trying to deal with her trauma alone, she is need of therapy.
I think Astruc is being petty, childish and partial. What he did to this character accomplishes nothing against his old bully. And if he made her have a sad backstory, that means he must have considered the possibility that the bully also had her own problems, and yet, he doesn't have the empathy to care.
Astruc is a pathetic, emotionally unbalanced shallow manchild. And that reflects in both the main characters and plot.
Astruc is a pig vulva.
I feel like she will get some kind of redemption arch because really the only reason she acts like this is because she really didn’t have a good childhood from what we can see
•Mum who doesn’t notice her existence
•Dad who really only cares about his power as mayor
•Only friend is Adrien
She does kinda deserve a redemption arch she does have some good in her
It would’ve made the most sense if they’d stuck with the redemption arc but I like it more if she became an anti-hero instead. Eventually, Chloe could become a better person and share the bee miraculous with Zoe or have someone develop a bee themed costume and weapons.
I know having Chloe become a full-fledged hero or an antihero both options would be great
And heck maybe even share the bee miraculous with Zoe or maybe Chloe could discover a miraculous around either way sounds good to me
I LOVED CHLOE IN SEASON 2!!!
Idk why they decided to ruin her character development.
First of all Chloe is the best "comic relief" in the show. Her lines are mean but smart or "brutally honest". Without Chloe and her sense of humor the show is boring for me. I feel sometimes ashamed when I see Marinette and Chat Noir how they act close to Adrien and Lady Bug and the Kwamis are more irritating for me than funny.
Chloe has a real problems and good backstory (just like Adrien): mother left her, after that her friend left her probably before she went to school. (Sabrina and Adrien don't know eachother well so they didn't spend time together with Chloe. So first Adrien left her and after that she met Sabrina).
Chloe got her miraculum only because of mistake by Marinette. Marinette lost this miraculum. Noone explain her the rules. She shown it because once again she was humiliated by her mum. Marinette didn't face the consequences and Chloe did.
Chloe is one of the most complicated character and nobody know how she will act. She can be super mean but she can do something good and noone can predict that and that is interesting.
How they can change this character: She will fall in love in good boy (e.g. someone from Marinette's familly). She will forget about "superheroes" because she will protect him. (there is so many option for funny situation: she will ask Marinette about help, she will protect this boy without miraculum, she will change her behavior but she should stay "brutally honest".)
Despite how much I genuinely want to see Chloe's redemption, someone who turns against their cause so quickly due to some personal emotions cannot be a hero. You can't be a superhero if all it takes to make you turn on everyone and join the enemy is your ally refusing to give you a miraculous.
I have no problem for her to be a villain. I have problems with her being a bully again. I hate bully characters. They are not interesting, not entertaining, almost add nothing to plot, so they are just blank. They are just a chore for the heroes.
They make her more villany with make her make an alliance with Lila. I could like it but, when I remember Thomas hate Chloe, I can't have fun. I can't like the episodes. They didn't make her a villain because they think it's a good idea or interesting thing to do. They make her a villain because Thomas hate her.
I just hate how Thomas truly believes chole was never redeemable and will never be redeemable...she's fourteen?!
saying young kids who made a mistake as a kid will never be to grow past, be helped and even become a better person because of what they did as a kid?
Chloe was horrible...but she could of been helped to change for the better and hell if they wanted someone to 1v1 Marinette just use Lila?!
And don't get me started on Zoe, Zoe is a straight copy of Chloe expect she's "nice" . That's it. That is her personality...she's nice.
Zoe got everything from day one, she got friends, got to be in a movie, got the bee miraculous?!
she has no flaws. Chloe was better because she started with flaws and then could of worked her way to be "nice", Zoe is just Thomas trying to have a Chloe without it being Chloe.
Imagine if chloe actually stole the miraculous, and went to new york, that would make her own show. (Let me dream).
Yeah I would like for them to make Chloe a vigilante like character.
Honestly? That last idea you threw out there? That’s genius! She follows her own rules and does what she wants as long as she benefits from it. It makes perfect sense for her to switch sides constantly and be a gray character. Not exactly good, but not exactly evil either. She would be the perfect anti-hero with her own sets of morals and rules. It’s perfect cause it doesn’t redeem her and it doesn’t make her a typical play by play small time villain. It might make some people unhappy, but dang I’d love to see an anti hero queen bee.
Chloé is more like a Flash Thompson than like a Venom.
It should be Alya,Marinette,Adrien,Luka,Nino and Chloe as a super hero group since everyone in that city keeps getting akumatized
Then make Chloe an example of how love can change a person! So that kids will know what is love! The guy with green hair fits her because that guy is so understanding and also kind not to mention he is handsome and Chloe is beautiful!!! But come on! Why do you need to do it! Ahg!! I hate that Zoe such a copycat 🙄
The fact that people know chloe is queen bee would actually be a really cool interesting part of the show. And it would constrast with how marinette is so careful and secretive about her identity (most of the time). Plus chloe is so proud to be a hero just like her idol that it would make sense that she lets everyone know because she's bold and proud in general on top of being somewhat self centered. I think that would be a nice dynamic while she also learns to be more humble and polite as a civilian. Kinda like the dynamic of chat noir/ adrien but with less of a jarring difference between the hero and civilian identities because I'd like chloe to keep her bratty temperament.
thomas tried to make chloe an azula but made her a zuko
*that's where he went wrong*
Chloé *is* an Azula.
@@joseph86255 more like lila
I knew she was going to get a redemption arc when Lila showed up. I mean both of them are rude, snarky, have bad parents (except Lila has the perk of manipulative, so if anything she is worse than Chloe). The show seemed to head in the direction that Chole would be good because she had the bee miraculous, she was the only person to resist being taken over by an Akuma, which even the good teacher with the red hair wasn't able to resist. You wouldn't have to worry about missing a "mean girl" either with Lila . You can still make Chloe mean, she looked like she was on the road to improvement.
My issue is that it seemed like they were setting up a redemption by giving her sympathetic backstory and such. If they just want to keep her the villain that's fine but why bother with the arc and establish a new, worse, villain in the same sort of role?
Chloe has a lot of fans because of her attitude, sarcasm, and the connection she has with reality, it’s supposed to be a joke when we say, “GO QUEEN BEE YASSSS!!” But some people think we encourage her for being a bully? I would still encourage her even if she wasn’t! It has nothing to do with that! I also believe that Chloe can be a good person someday!
Maybe one day chloe will regret joining hawkmoth and mayura and apologize to ladybug and cat noir
It won't thomas said that she is a villain now and the heros are now 4
@@ninje217 I said she might apologize to ladybug for helping hawkmoth or might not ok
@@wotaweirdo I know but Thomas lately she is now a villain
@@ninje217 oh ok sorry
@@wotaweirdo no problem but I'm really mad about that thomas said that chloe is a villain now
i want it to be a zuko style redemptive arc. like. she was getting better but then slipped back into her old ways bc of temptation bc healing isn’t linear.
I think anti-hero Chloe would be a fascinating take on her character arc. The reason so many fans were put off, I think, is because writing tends to follow patterns or tropes. The way the story was progressing and how the scenes were written would normally lead to a character redemption, what with her admiration of Ladybug. People thought that working with someone she idolizes might give her some introspection. Maybe some scenes between Chloe and Ladybug where she sees just how much Ladybug cares for the people of Paris or how dangerous it is for Ladybug would spark something. Instead they got Miracle Queen. I truly believe it's a symptom of modern day writers who want to pull a gotcha moment on their audience. Where authors want to outwit the fandom by pulling the wool over their eyes by subverting whatever theories or tropes that crop up. This is fine in small doses. The problem is that authors are doing it constantly. With the rise of social media and ability to interact with fans it became possible to know what the fandom believes will happen and has brought about the ability to yank the carpet out from under them.
It's not always a bad thing to subvert expectations, but when it's the only consistent thing you have going for your writing then your plot itself tends to suffer. It makes it nigh impossible to build the foundations of the overarching plot, if there is one, and character motivations stop making any lick of sense. It becomes jarring. And while the average viewership doesn't analyze to the extent that some of us do, they still notice when something doesn't quite make sense. Suspension of disbelief will only carry you so far. The way it seems to me, and take this with a grain of salt because I haven't gotten too deep into the show, is that the world itself is changing and moving forward, but the character's themselves are stagnant. Of course Astruc himself might not be doing this purposefully, but it certainly seems strange that it's such a reoccurring thing. Just my two cents.
I totally agree with your argument, not only would that be hella amazing as far as a character arc goes, but it gives both her character and the show more depth. The only reason I'm actually mad at Thomas is because he thinks he's the new Hitchcock or Steven Spielberg and he's so arrogant and blinded by his own egocentrism. He acts like a child towards basic criticism and I hate people like that.
Anti-Hero Chloe is best Chloe
I actually really like the idea of Chloe/Bee being an antihero. Think of it: say, at the end of Miracle Queen, she manages to escape with the Bee Miraculous. She comes home, and thinks to herself. Every time she’s chosen a side in the fight between HM and the heroes, there’s only been more and more problems. She decides to branch out on her own, to find her own way of stopping Hawk Moth from destroying her city. She completely disassociates herself from the other heroes, striking out on her own and trying to uncover Moth’s identity. She refuses to join a side, preferring to be on her own.
Eventually her and Ladybug lock horns over how to deal with the recent rash of akumas. The two are forced to work together on a particular mission, and they discuss the events of Miracle Queen. Chloe partially accepts responsibility on her own behalf, admitting that she could’ve definitely handled the situation better than she did. But she points out that Ladybug needs to be more open to her teammates about what’s going on, noting that what happened to her could very well happen to any of the other heroes if she lets history repeat itself. Ladybug apologises to her, saying that she made a stupid mistake. While Chloe doesn’t entirely forgive Ladybug, she does somewhat accept the apology for the most part. The two girls come to a truce of sorts: and even work together sometimes on patrols when they need to.
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios kinda like Mello and Near trying to catch Kira
@@johanroyce6324 Yeah exactly!
My thing with chloe is she’s not just a bad person sometimes to be a bad person she comes from a genuinely bad home life
Like her character was built how Zuko’s character was built on top of that if thomas was in this mindset of “she’s always gonna be bad” then why tf would he add Lila, an objectively worse person
Chloe is a difficult character, easy to hate, hard to sympathize with. But what drives her? She wants to stand out, often ridiculing others, but what breaks her down is the lack of love towards her, from her parents (Style Queen, Malediktator) and others. Even losing Sabrina's friendship hurts her, in the end. I believe - and you are more than welcome to disagree with me - that she needs to care for somebody more than she cares for herself; in other words, she has to love and be loved in return, to set her on the straight and narrow.
I know, it IS a tall order.
And just who could this special person be? Let's suppose it is the total opposite of who she has been craving for since the start. In other words, not Adrien Agreste! No, it should be someone different; someone who does not fear her but, at the same time, is caring and gentle. Going off on a limb - and again, you are more than welcome to disagree - I see two choices: either Luka or somebody entirely new to the series. Perhaps it can be a new exchange student to Françoise Dupont High School.
"You either hate her or love...to hate her"
Love that😂💖
I think Chloe being a Venom type would be wonderful, at least as a temporary solution. I don't know if that'd be viable the closer we get to the final battle, but hot damn the reason so many people are angry with Miraculous right now is Thomas being a an child. Calling a middle school child irredeemable, especially given her upbrining and circumstances, is so utterly ridiculous (hehe I had to sorry). Now he's blocked half his fans because 1) he CAN NOT accept any kind of criticism even if a literal angel came down and delivered the news as gently as possible and 2) he's blatantly ignored the fact that his "kids show" targets more than just kindergardeners. High schoolers watch. Adults watch. He's defending his show on the grounds of "it's for kids" when in reality it's just not true.
I really hope the show recovers from this (and how he treats Cat Noir, and everyone being so oblivious they lose their IQs, and Marinette's villain behavior, and- oh, guess maybe it's too late?)
It's even worse if he keeps brushing it off as 'just for kids'. Romanticizing obsession and stalking isn't a healthy lesson for kids. I had to learn this the hard way when I watched this with my 8 year old niece and had to remind her not to act like Marinette when she gets all creepy around Adrien. Why? Because she thought this was how she should act around her crush. Spending an entire hour afterwards undoing the damage makes me wish I hadn't shown her the show in the first place.
I feel like it was more of a part of her redemption ark to make it more realistic by making her revert to being worse then what she used to be walk off in anger and realise that she messed up when she gets to where she wants to go and throughout the next seasons she looks back on her actions and try’s to realise that life doesn’t give you things because you asked for it all the time. This could lead to her being akumatized again as she moves to her lowest point as she realises how bad she has been and in this instance her akumatized form reflects her regret and she becomes forgiven when she is de-akumatized
I hope Nathalie will become good in season 4 to save adrien or smth.
Honestly, she's the only one I can see redeeming herself.
Chloe's personality is inconsistent. That my biggest problem with her. Also Ladybug has a double standard against her.
THAT THIRD OPTION IS A BIG YES IN MY BOOK
I know this is 10 months old. But let's just say this Chloe the one to
Fight against getting akumatized.
Not even Marinette was going to do that and neither did Adrienne but somehow a ready girl managed to fight against to that
I think Chloe should be redeemed. They’ve worked too hard to make us sympathize with her. Lila can be the villain that Astruc expects Chloe to be. She easily fills that position of someone who doesn’t care about others and purely wanted to play superhero just to impress people and show off. She’s Chloe but if Chloe were actually just straight up malicious.
Chloe is more complex though. She values certain people, things, relationships, and even sometimes cares how people perceive her. She looked up to Ladybug and was happy to fight by her side for a time. She’s also not straight up evil. She just makes bad choices because she’s never really had proper love and kindness modeled in her home. She’s been spoiled with nice things to distract from the lack of love and attention from her parents. She’s got more going on that we can understand, learn from and sympathize with. That just plants the seeds all too perfectly for her to be redeemed, especially if she still values having a relationship with Ladybug at all. She can easily be an imperfect and rough around the edges hero, but I think she still deserves to be a hero at the end of the day.
Lila, on the other hand, is just cruel and malicious. She’s manipulative, controlling, holds grudges, and doesn’t value honest or true relationships with people. It makes sense to make her a villain. She values nothing good, and so she won’t get anything good and doesn’t deserve success either. If you want an irredeemable, self sabotaging character, she’s it.
I think Chloes redemption arc is what made Miracle Queen so much more impactful and meaningful. We saw that Chloe is more that just a mena girl and that shes actually sensitive and wants someone to see her as special because shes never had that before. We also saw her idolize ladybug and want to be a hero herself. Then we watched her grow hopeless as ladybug kept refusing to use her and then we saw her give up hope. She just wanted a family and friends and ladybug was finally that for her then she took that away. Chloe is the strongest character as seen when hawkmoth unsuccessfully tried to akumatize her. She just grew tired of waiting and hawkmoth offered her what she had been waiting for. The end of miracle queen while chloe was yelling at lb made me really sad because I saw more than chloe being chloe. I saw a girl who was once strong and confident be hurt so many times that she finally caved in and lost everything and when she said that lb didnt deserve to breathe the same air as her, I saw that as more of a defense mechanism--the same one shes used her whole life (just as she was starting to break from that). I really hope that in the new seasons well see her finally understand that'll was just trying to protect her and maybe lb will try to spend some time with her even without giving her the bee miraculous
I think Chloe should get a redemption arc because she isn't evil, and her being queen bee makes her a better person I kind of think she has way more development than Marinette and I think she could be a good person we've seen numerous times in the show that chloe cares about other people, and when she is queen bee she is actively trying to help others.
I hope they take a page out of spiderman's book