“In the day time I’m Marinette. Just a normal girl with a normal life.” - is friends with a French model - uncle is world’s greatest chef - bff runs most popular blog - is acknowledged by the most famous fashion designer - babysits for a famous reporter - is friends with a superhero (as Marinette) - parents own the best bakery in Paris - is literally friends with or knows multiple celebrities - parents love and support her 100% unconditionally (is that normal???) - lives across the street from school Me: no you aren’t stop lying
Both Adrien and Marinette are portrayed as main characters/protagonists, but I kinda wish Adrien got more screen time and was focused on more...his story and drama has so much more depth lol
Yes! Or like marinette getting kinda akumatized? Hypnotized? Like they always do with chat noir Edit: forgot how it was said at the time but gets controlled by a akumatized person like when chat noir got controlled by dark Cupid, Or princess fragrance,
I dunno why, but the thing that always bothered me when it came to Marinnete's character is the fact that outside of her ladybug persona, she is supossed to be a normal teenage girl ( it even says so in the theme song), but like, she is not?? I mean, what other fourteen/fifteen year old has already designed a cover album for a freakin world wide superstar, while drawing is not even their primary hobby? She is also soo charismatic, that she is friends with everyone in her class, and the only time she shows any kind of social struggles is when talking to her crush. Also it was indicated that she is great at baking, and playing video games, AND she also has time to design and sew clothing so great, that the BEST designer in Paris wants them to create clothes for their fashion show or something ( sorry I haven't watched this show for a while), oooh also she manages to keep her grades good, be a class rep, and stalk Adrien, while ALSO saving Paris every single day. I'm sorry but that's not how normal people work. How can she achieve all those things, while being so young, and while having to deal with her personal problems, like is she never sad, or angry, or discouraged? She is supossed to be a teen after all. Anyways in my opinion they should add more stuff, that Marrinette is bad at, beyond being "clumsy". Just to show, that she really is just a normal girl. (Also sorry for my bad english, I'm not a native speaker)
I think Juleka would be a better MC. She has genuine flaws, is actually interesting and I could see her developing a good bit if given the opportunity to. IDK, just a thought.
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios Omg, I can see It too! If Juleka was a little more fleshed out character wise ( like giving her a hobby, or a different relation with other characters, (exept of the ones she has with Luka and Rose) she would be really cool and balanced MC. She has social struggles that she can go through and grow on that field, and she isn't portraied as a perfect being that everyone likes. Also In my opinion her family life is a bit more interesting than Marinette's ( the girl is living on a ship ok??)
Optymistyczna And her dad’s gone. Lotta good potential there too. We can see her coming out of her shell and try to overcome her social struggles, and Luka can develop loads as well since we’d see him a lot more. Maybe he’s overprotective of Juleka after their dad left? Some unresolved anger issues?
@@jedyoung767 @Jed Young I think more in the sense that Mari is pretty obsessive over Adrien and blindly assumes he is an amazing, flawless purpose (like in the Felix episode where she instantly knows it's not Adrien not because she knows him well but because he could never do something like that). Also she immediately hates Lila not because she lies to her friends but initially because another girl had the guts to make moves on Adrien. We haven't seen the other teen characters break into any houses or steal things (besides from maybe chloe, I forget) and most normal teens don't act like this in real life anyways.
I kinda wish the show have Adrien realise her creepy obsession and be disgusted by it the same way he would Chloe treating others negatively. And then when she's crying to Alya (and maybe her other friends) about it they'd tell her they'd agree and actually have a fight about it. Then her parents find out about that creeper timetable. The girl needs actual consequences. And then maybe cat noir makes a remark about it and Ladybug defends mari and then gets clued into her identity that way and finally have Mari be in the dark about something that cat noir isn't.
Show writer 1: Hm. People are starting to think Marinette is a Mary Sue. Show writer 2: Oh no! What are we gonna do about it? Show writer 1: I was thinking we could slowly make her more vulnerable and let her make more major mistakes to give her character some depth and stuff. Show writer 3: Or we could suddenly make her a really creepy b*tch who breaks into people's houses and kisses wax statues. Show writer 1: Show writer 2: Show writer 1: Show writer 2: YEAAAAAAAH Show writer 1: *YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAH*
HELL YEAAAAAAAHHH! ... but can we also have a handful of girls in on this and use them like for target practice? Let's have her go straight up Fatal Attraction mode, where she doesn't just stalk someone but also anyone by proxy to them too.. Plus the show was made for young girls right? So we'll have them pitted against each other over a guy. .. it will be empowering for girls to watch. But just make sure you write it in a way that has everyone only rooting for Mari not the others...make sure her you write her friends supporting this, possibly helping her along. You know, let's say for an example one can suggest kidnapping one of the target girls etc. shananigins like that .That'll do the trick 🤓
That one, though, was the version of sant that the kid created. He based it off of what she told him, which was that she was the best. Otherwise, why would santa grant a wish? That was something that she obviously made up.
I don't think she a full blown Mary sue but she is a full blown stalker. Also I don't like the fact that she's the only one that can capture the butterflies
AlishaToon123 Not to mention Queen Bee too. They nerfed Venom to hell. It only stays active for a couple of minutes. Also, Chloe is a lot more intelligent than they’re giving her credit for. But oh no, God forbid we have an actually competent superhero! Let’s give an IQ of 1! Can’t have her outshining Ladybug! Seriously, I guarantee you if Bee was given the chance to and wasn’t nerfed she could kick LBs ass any day of the week.
Not to mention Chat Noir has the ability to destroy everything and everyone, he could even just cataclysm the akuma. He literally killed EVERYONE in Chat Blanc. They dumb down everyone else to praise Marinette it's like she's on a pedestal where every mistake has no consequences 😒
@@seydk in that episode he actually DESTROYED an akuma, so I don't understand why he doesn't do it more often, it could be useful for an episode that could have Ladybug being trapped or hypnotized.
Honestly the show should've focused a on Adrien more. His life is more interesting and has a lot going on than Marinette's. If Marinette is the focus why did Thomas dump so much drama on Adrian?
True, Marinette is a boring character. I only really watch this stupid show is for Adrien. I agre Adrien is a great character. I want focuse on him more because he is more interesting and has more going on that Marinette. She is so boring., she has a bad personality, creepy relationship, terrible backstory and had terrible character development. Nothing about her character is well written. Also her behavior came out of no where. She definitely needs character flaws to her human and relatable because no one is perfect, we all make mistakes and we all have our flaws. Just make sure they make sense and portrait them decently. Adrien did all these Marinette didn't do. So yeah. I would have liked it if they made Adrien the main character and gave him the character development, he deverses. Also written Marinette better, make her more interesting and complex than the one we got in the show and make her a good female protagonist.
Adrien is kind of a Mary Sue as well. They never show any kind of “bad” traits that he might have. I think the show should’ve been more 50/50 rather than focusing on either one more than the other. After all, they’re a pair with equal powers, the ying-yang of the miraculous.
@@mollymcmurtrie8037 I agree but disagree, I mean if Adrien was the main character what is he going to do?? besides getting yelled at by his dad ,be ordered around or have girls running after him etc . But I would like to see what's going on in Adriens head I just don"t think he would be a good main character maybe if he had less rules.
@Universal Eclipse she stalked him multiple times, memorized his schedule, opened his locker, had used his phone before without his permission, has pictures of him everywhere inside her room, she knows everything about him, she acted like a creep on "adrien's wax replica", and literally used her miraculous to enter adrien's room without his permission or knowledge and while in there she touched and SNIFFED his PILLOW, she is not just creepy she is literally obsessed with adrien
Exactly What I was thinking and that’s why I don’t like ladybug so much.Not that I hate her!I just think sometimes she is rude and she feels like she doesn’t need cat noir or someone else help during battles. Like when queen bee tried to prove herself that she can a worthy superhero.Ladybug just pushes her away like if she was the problem that they couldn’t have got hawkmoth’s miraculous or mayuras.(I forgot how to spell it)Also in another episode ladybug can magically wear all of the miraculous that no other miraculous holder can do.It’s just like she’s powerful and she can think quick of what to do next in a situation and no other super villain can defeat her.Thats just saying she’s invincible and can never be defeated.I hope they fix her character in the next season and hopefully ladybug can have more flaws and appreciate cat noir better because most of the time she acts like he just did little work and that he’s just distracting her in the battles.
that sock you lost in the dryer •20 years ago At this point he may as well be a rock with how dumb they’re making him. He makes Chloe look like Marie Curie by comparison, and we’re talking about a girl who threw herself in front of a train just so that she could prove to her narcissistic mother that she’s worth something!
I don't remember the episode name, but one episode I had a major problem with was when Marinette and Adrien swapped powers for a while and Adrien logically had no idea what he was doing but Marinette had no issue at all adjusting to her new abilities.
Ikr! Like she had no problem to learn how to use the stick or just adapt to the new role. I honestly hated that, it makes it look like that's job is easier and less important than ladybug's which we all know ain't that true.
Hannah Ettinger Even tho she ended up causing Reflekdoll to go completely nuts and making everything worse. Love the episode, but LB better reign in her hypocrisy.
While I agree with most things said here, I just wanna point out that in Origins Adrien quickly figured out how to use his miraculous, and Marinette had trouble. (Not defending Marinette, I can't stand her😂)
Lucy Heartfilia Marinette has development. You have to think deeper. Harry Potter’s work because you can read it in a book. In movie or animation, it is harder to see.
There's any fanfiction out there who treats Luka as a real character? I'm done with Astruc's Luka. Actually, I think I'm done with Astruc's whole canonverse.
Marinette is the top akuma causing person in the show. Puppeteer, antibug, second timebreaker, Gamer, Volpina, prime Queen, riposte, dark owl, Glaciator, Queen Wasp, puppeteer 2.0, Reflektadoll, indirectly cause Miraclure and created the two most powerful akumas to date. Chat blanc and Miracle Queen. Can forget the accidental Zombuzou one! And two Christmas episodes That’s 19 akuma! That blows Chloé akumitizing out of the WATER!
Yes! People always say chloe is a terrible person cuz she's akumatized many people but ignore the fact that marinette has akumatized more people and isn't exactly as nice or good person that she is painted to be
Actually it is Marinette who causes the most akuma. And if Lila pushed any harder I say we would have seen Marinette punch Lila. And you fell for the oldest trick. Never take what a creators words without a grain of salt
Marinette is a borderline Sue. She does have flaws and makes mistakes, and sometimes makes bad decisions and suffers consequences. However, these consequences don't seem to have long-term effects. She does apologize and feels remorse for her actions, but then come few episodes later and she makes even worse mistakes than before. And her obsession with Adrien is a HUGE flaw that she must overcome. She puts him on a pedestal, obsesses with him most of the time and stalks him. But when you point it out to Thomas, he'll accuse you of 'questioning the mental health of a teenager' 🙄 Yeah, I have every right to do that, Thomas. Do you guys know that the stuff that she did in the name of her 'love' for Adrien can put her in jail for FORTY YEARS? And that's not the worst thing about it. If she wasn't a minor, the charges against her would've been EIGHTY YEARS! But because she's a minor, they were cut in half, and 40 years is still a very long time. Heh, ironically, she once had one of her ridiculous phantasies about her being locked up for stealing Adrien's phone, which I believe is indeed one of the felonies that could put her in jail. And Monseiur Astruc doesn't seem to see that and continues on romanticizing such behavior and painting it acceptable for young children. Oh, and France isn't lenient with things like these. So, yeah. There you have it.
@@Soundwave1900 Not just stealing phones, but also trying to break into Adrien's house and spying on him. And how does she have his FULL schedule hanging in her room? Only Nathalie and Gabriel have access to it. Also, before trying to break into his house she stalked him all the way to his house on a stolen bike! Not to mention that a fireman helped her to spy on her crush and her love rival. Like, what? 🤨
@@Hanin_Isa Oh, totally forgot about that awful episode... One objection though: is collecting an info you can get passively just by being a friend to someone considered as spying? I mean she deduced the schedule, she might as well do that without writing anything down. Can you be charged for that?
Honestly, season 3 got me to a point that I just plain dislike Adrinette. I can't ship Marinette/Adrien bc I would feel too bad for him - Marinette is way too possessive and she shouldnt be rewarded for it.
Marinette never gets consequences and the environment she’s in loves her. Everyone loves her including Adrien who called her their “everyday ladybug”. She does so many awful things and never gets consequences
@MarinetteI think It would have happened sooner or later, if Ladybug had detransformed seeking master Fu during Love eater, Hawkmoth could have had a clue about Ladybug's identity, because she didn't know he was following her. Let's not forget that the story of ML is about two super-heroes teenagers fighting a merciless and megalomaniac adult who has a faithfull and ressourfull assistant as an ally, and a manipulative sociopathic liar on his side. Even if Marinette/Ladybug hadn't done anything wrong in Love eater, One way or another, Hawkmoth/Gabriel would have concocted a plan that would have allowed him to push Ladybug to make a mistake and finally give him the opportunity to capture the guardian. Marinette is not perfect, we can't except her to not make mistakes, few of us would do better in her place. It's always like that with characters like Marinette, people only remember her mistakes and never her exploits. About Chloe's arc being all her fault, I don't agree, Marinette's mistake of not calling Queen Bee one last time may have caused Miracle Queen to rise, but it's also Chloe's fault for continuing to delude herself AFTER Ladybug warned her that she might never be able to reassign her the Bee miraculous. And if Chloe had shown signs of change, that didn't necessarily mean that she had become such a better person than that. Would you have forgotten her foul attitude in Climatika 2 ? Chloé never wanted to be super heroine for the right reasons, unlike Ladybug and Chat Noir who really care about all of Paris, the akuma Love eater himself declared that Chloé mostly loved herself, while when Ladybug confronts the Akuma, he retorts that she loves all of Paris, it's a sacred contrast, don't you think?
"Many awful things and never gets consequences" ? You're kidding right ? I admit that Marinette did some bad things, but "awful" is a big word when we knows characters like Chloé, Lila or Felix, who did things with bad intentions, and who didn't care about hurting people and never regretted it. Marinette ALWAYS regretted the bad things she did, and always apologized and tried to make amend for those bad things, some of her friends call her for her mistakes and the consequences were often akumatized people, that's enough consequences for me, and with her plate of responsabilities and her two bullies Lila and Chloé, Marinette really doesn't deserves more problems. It's not her fault if she repeat some of the same mistakes, it's the show which uses scriptwriting facilities which can lead to an inconsistency of the character. I know that since Marinette is the main character we except her to always being nice and make very few mistakes, well guess what ? She's human, and she has the right to have flaws make mistakes, as long as her bad deeds and her mistakes do not multiply and do not exceed the number of her good deeds, which for now is not the case.
@Marinette you may be right. When we think about the domino effect, losing the bee miraculous indeed led Chloé to become Miracle Queen. But I think that Ladybug losing the bee miraculous was mostly due to clumsiness and hardly because of a bad decision. I mean, Style Queen took her by surprise, and she was a very powerfull akuma, that was hardly Marinette's fault, Thought you can argue that she could have gone looking for the bee miraculous she just lost instead of thinking that her power gave it back to Master Fuu. But those kind of silly mistakes are mostly du to the scenario needs 🤔 And giving the bee miraculous back to Chloé in Malediktor ? It could be argued to have been a bad decision I admit, but it can also be seen as a good decision At the moment because Chloé did a good job to help Ladybug. Also because she was influenced by Adrien words, Marinette chose to give Chloé a chance to fix her mistakes and to do good as a hero. But I think Marinette overestimated Chloe's "goodness", just like Adrien who has trouble seeing Chloé for the mean person she is because he knew her when she didn't already become a wicked girl during their childhood. I think this is why Chloe's arc disappointed a lot of people, because since Chloé didn't become a better person, letting us see some good side of her and giving us hope that she could become a better person seems like a waste now. But in the end I think the lesson ML tried to teach us with Chloe is that you can never become a true hero without the right reasons and motivations, and it's not by becoming a hero that you can become a good and better person, but by being a good and better person that you can become a hero
I honestly think she is a Mary Sue already, especially after the show ruined Chloe’s redemption arc. Also, unpopular opinion, Marinette is in almost as much wrong as Lila is, up until Lila joins Hawkmoth, but hat doesn’t excuse Marinette. Just think of how creepy she is, and the ways she has selfishly used the miraculous. I personally think that if she could find a clever way around these problems instead of trying to break into Adriens house, she would be much more interesting. Or, you know, trusting others with their opinions
Hmm the same Lila rhat actively gets akumatized to put people in danger? Mari the girl that has gone out of her way for friends and strangers multiple times is just as bad as Lila? Yea makes a whole lot of sense
Not exactly, but she is pretty boring. She's nice, friendly, reasonably intelligent, apparently athletic, a competent hero ,really her worst flaw is that she gets a little too into her romantic feelings for Adrien. And that's boring. That's part of the reason why Chloe is more interesting, she's flawed but takes steps or atleast took steps to fix herself before the guy making the show design to backpedal on her character because he hates her.
Yep. She fits the trope to an absolute T. Gets praised by everyone for doing things literally anyone else can do, is never wrong, belittles those who aren’t “perfect” like her, and is stronger than all the other heroes and is better than them at pretty much everything.
Even when she is doing something wrong, people around her don't notice her mistake or bad behavior, like that episode when she tried to enter in Adrien's house because Lila was with him and a fireguard help her without questioning anything. I was like "What??"
4 года назад+11
When the fan fiction is lowkey better than the actual show
With her being stronger than the other character- I personally disagree seeing as though there are character that can time travel- basically destroy the world if prompted and control elements or even create malleable clones/hallucinations. I feel like her only real power is de-acumatising. Even then though she releases them and allows for more to be created
huge disappointment honestly.All the other heroes are so much stronger than her but the creators dumb them down and belittle and weaken them so that they dont outshine Marinette
In my opinion she comes close to being a Mary Sue. Ultimately I find that the fault lies with the writing as it seems to favor her a great deal. For on thing why was she the only one trusted to be in contact with the guardian or choose other miraculous users. For example I thought Adrien would be the one to pick Nino or some of the other heroes. you'd think it would be more equal. its fine if ladybug is the leader but give cat noir a chance to shine y know
The part where you talk about Adrian choosing miraculous holder, I remember being disappointed when that wasn't the case. Like can't we see Adrian's perception or Judgment of things, at least when he's the one choosing a new partner?
@@sonpoYT Honestly I can't. The more I thought about it the more accurate the term felt. For example I thought about was the Lila situation but upon my analysis I found it wasn't as much of an obstacle as it initially appeared to be. First Lila's goal of getting with Adrien is already doomed to fail since he's already aware of her lies so no challenge there and as for exposing her to the rest of the school it just the writing waiting for the right moment for the "dramatic" conclusion that hopefully satisfys the audience.
@Karen Marinette has always been Marinette. The only one who got a character change was felix. Bridgette was just a name the fandom came up with to differentiate the two.
I think another qualifier for "Mary Sue" is the subjective view of whether the character is interesting to watch. A character can be practically perfect in every way, but still not be called a "Mary Sue" by very many people because they're still an enjoyable character despite their seeming lack of flaws. For example, the character of 'Pucca' from the Korean cartoon would no doubt fit the mould of "Mary Sue", she can overcome all obstacles, is never framed as wrong for her actions, everyone loves her, she never has to change, etc. But I've never seen anyone call her a "Mary Sue" because she's still fun to watch (or it might be because Pucca is an old cartoon by now).
Oh yeah, I definitely see your point. I was also a fan of Pucca (still am). but as I got older, I started to analyze her traits that made me a little annoyed. Like was she a demigod or something? (Mind you there is an actual theory about that. I forgot where I read it though. Probably another RUclips comments section).
Yeah. I remember Pucca. I would feel bad for Garu whenever she forces a kiss on him even back then. But she was still enjoyable to watch. I mean, the genre of her TV show is slapstick humor. 'Miraculous' is NOT slapstick humor. It's supposed to be a show with a clear end goal.
I agree, but unlike marinette, Pucca is used(or at least is how i see it) as a parody of the "romance can surpass anything" plot, making it litteral and usually pucca never get to be with Garu, so she falls more in the parody Sue category, where she can do anything, but always fails in her objective
I feel like if the directors of the show made marienette less clusmy and have her act like any normal person around their crush, then the show would be much better. So would the character development. When she's ladybug she acts way more mature and shows more of a less clusmy side, which is better. Other then that the directors basically just need to fix up some unrealistic personality traits
@@魏婴-u2w That's kind of the point. She's a different person when she's Ladybug, who she could be if she stood up for herself and had more confidence - both outward and self. Part of her development is becoming that person fully.
@@praiseomiragwadia1772 dude kids are dumb not stupid. They aren’t that dumb enough to not be able to tell if a cartoon character has a crush on someone
Marinette is taking what I call the "Bloom route". Initially, she wasn't very Mary-Sueish, but as the seasons went on, she started becoming more and more Mary Sue like. But I'm not sure if that's so much the fault of the character herself than it is that it's the fault of the writers. This all could be fixed with decent writing. The point of Marinette being Ladybug is because Marinette is supposed to be "unlucky" whereas Ladybug is "good luck". It's just like how Adrien is Chat Noir because he is so "lucky and perfect" whereas the black cat is bad luck. It's all about mirroring or looking at things from an outside perspective. For instance, Adrien seems pretty lucky to be an acclaimed model and from a rich family, as well as being adored in school, right? But under that lucky "facade" is the bad luck of having a terrible family life to the point of being captive in his own home. However, being Chat Noir gives Adrien a chance to put the facade behind him and be himself, even if he's labled for being bad luck. That doesn't happen with marinette. She's just seen as really kind and helpful in both forms, and that's what makes the connection so mute. If Marinette had an established reputation of being unlucky. For instance, always getting locked out of class, constantly leaving her phone on ring, stumbling through conversations, accidentally insulting people when she ment to compliment them, inherently clumsy, waking up late, getting stuck with the "bad" school lunch choices or the bad seat or bad pencil or the bad anything that always breaks/doesn't work when she needs to use it. Basically, it's a label she has to deal with on her day to day life, she's "Unlucky Mari" and has been since forever because unlucky things always happen to her specifically. This, therein, impacts her social life, and she becomes shy and withdrawn, to the point of even ignoring Adrien when he comes into class and even advising him to stay away from her(look up Marianne from Fire emblem three houses, you'll get what I mean by that). However, as Ladybug, she is suddenly "lucky" and good things happen to her as Ladybug. The contest would definitely cause a believeable rift between Mari and Ladybug, and Unlucky Mari would have to deal with suddenly being adored and extremely lucky. As the seasons go on, she becomes more accustomed to her other self, and begins opening up, showing her kinder side and being well-liked by the class, to the point of even making good friends(Alya and Nino). Here, we exploring some of her intersts, like fashion designing, and how she has a good eye for art. In addition, Adrien, being "Prince Charming", keeps wanting to persue and beceom friends with Mari because plot. However, as things are looking their best for Mari, her bad luck smacks her in the face again and it ruins everything(maybe something like when Lila faked Marinette pushing her down the stairs), to which she goes through being akumatized after her explusion. Then there's an arc of her questioning if she rally, REALLY deserves to be Ladybug, and it's up to Chat Noir and co to help her realize that she does, indeed, deserve to be Ladybug.
It's kinda sad that Marinette can be like Ladybug in her normal life (and is practically Ladybug) but Adrien is still hiding the Chat Noir part of him. I just want Adrien to actually be able to be himself around other people.
now THIS is what the writers could've done to make Marinette a more lovable and relatable character. Actually show the differences between her as Marinette and as Ladybug. Her clumsiness isn't even a big factor unless the other characters themselves point out how clumsy Marinette is.
@@daradara7493 That's the thing I always hated. They point out she's clumsy, but I don't recall many times she was actually "clumsy". Like if her flaw is gonna be clumsiness, fine, but make it a frequent thin in her day to day life. Like she trips over things, or runs into doors/people, drops things, doesn't pay attention to where she's going, ect.
THANK YOU! Everyone attributes "being a Mary Sue" to a problem with the character, but it's a problem with the writing and how that character affects the *story!* Your ideas sound very cool BTW.
@@santinafigueroa4145 I've been tossing around the idea of writing a fanfic, because I always get positive support when I talk about my Ladybug ideas, but I have so many projects right now, lol. Thank you!
I disagree with the stance on not checking the second box: Even though she has been the cause of several akumatizations, the issue is always resolved by the end of the episode where it has no real effect on the series or other characters for the most part (aside from characters like Lila where it's plot convenient). And while she does usually apologize or make amends in some way, it almost feels as if the situation never happened. And I don't think she really learns from them either. She has shown to give in to her obsessive behavior and make poor decisions just to be close to Adrien. It's the same formula almost every time. As for the Master Fu example, while it does drive the plot, I think it'll only count if it proves to cause any problems for her. If not, then I basically wouldn't have mattered.
She never made any attempt to apologise or reconcile with Nathael or even really take Chloe to task for nearly ending all like of Earth by bullying Auroea. So no Consequences are not really a thing in this show (as yet). The closest to some sort of consequence is a mild distrust of alya for siding with Lila that she got over as soon as Alya believed in her when she was getting expelled. No friendship ending consequences, no removal from the hero team for not trusting her - nope nothing.
Another thing: The fact that she doesn't really affect the intelligence of others in her civilian form. Um did he forget about Lila? In this situation everyone is dumbed down to be impervious to Lila's lies except for Adrien and Marinette. I mean they believed that MARINETTE pushed Lila down the stairs. They believed someone they barely knew over someone they all respected and admires. This guys video is really misinformed. For shame 😞
I agree with you, specially with Master Fu. At the end, marinette ended up being the new guardian, thats a kind of promotion and i'm sure she, even when will be struggling a little at the begining, will be the best guardian ever. And about "loosing the team", everybody is replaceable (except marinette), she will have to find new users or give new miraculous to other people. It's not a big problem. But, we will have to wait to see how it unfolds.
Agree here with the others. Yes she does make mistakes on the regular basis, but she never suffer any long term effects or, god forbit, learns from them: - she steals multiple phones and never gets punished for it, she just does it again. doesn´t matter if she feels guilty for it, when she fricking does it again. - she stalks Adrien like its a second job. the let down her girls to sneak into an all boys party but noone gets mad at her. then she try to break into his home, because Lila happens to be with him. she gets caugt by a firefighter and he HELPS HER wtf? - she teams up with Chloe to get rid of Kagami and while Chloe suffer consequences for being so evil, Marinette not only gets to see the Movie without having a ticket in the first place, she can do it with a VIP ticket next to adrien - And now Master Fu loosing his memory (essentialy diing in the show) while every other hero gets revealed to HM because of her. yes thats sad, but she gets promoted as the next guardian. no more running of to Master fu first if she needs another miraculous and who needs other heroes, she can use every power at the same time just fine. it is hard to see the negative consequence for her. the consequense is taken by others: Master Fu and all the other Miraculous holders (aside from chat noir, who wasn´t revealed ofc) the only missing feature for the mary sue checklist here is a tragic backstory and this is the least prominent feature tbh
Some will say "uhh Marinette it's not perfect, she's very clumsy all the time especially when she's with his crush" Mmm yeahhh that would be her default but *being a clumsy girl makes you look CUTE and adorable!! Which makes you look even MORE PERFECT* :'v
Something that bothers me is that the show in general justified Marinette's mistakes and put down other characters like Chloe or Adrien, i'm not saying Chloe is good, she still being a bully, but at least we know why she act like that and pays for her bad behavior, even she tried to be a better person. Adrien can't go wherever he want because his father controles his life and it's hard for him to socialize. but the show is like "Chloe will be always mean and Adrien doesn't pay attention to Marinette, he is inconsiderate with her feeling" when she has done as much akumas as Chloe and some other crazy stuff... But she is just a girl in love right???
Mary Sue; Generally defined as a character who’s universe revolves around / changes to accomodate the character, this includes others breaking character to or being created to favour them. Often is highly skilled to an unbalanced level and doesn’t suffer the consequences of their actions. (I’m going to be honest, I disagree with your judgement of the second one, she doesn’t learn from her small mistakes of causing over half of the akumatisations in season 3 and the two examples you give are massively outweighed, she only suffered the consequences when it was important to the plot but she never learnt otherwise and definitely didn’t suffer the consequences of doing illegal things as Marinette such as breaking into Adrien’s house twice (once she had the help of a fire fighter and the other she got in via way of deception which is still illegal) and I’m not even counting going into Adrien’s house for the gift in Chat Blanc which should also count and I’ll have to respectfully disagree that Chat Blanc had any real consequences, it didn’t change any of her views and only served to show the viewer why they can’t be together since fans demanded it, Marinette herself has never stopped believing that they couldn’t reveal their identities for an unknown reason up until Chat Blanc gave us one. So for me, she’s a massive Mary Sue)
That Chat Blanco episode annoys me. It shows that in future circumstances when she makes a mistake, she can just call Bunny and reverse whatever mistakes she made rather than face it like the superhero that she is. Like, I would have loved to see that Chat Blanc episode happen in real time and not in an alternate timeline. I would have loved to see the look on Marinette’s face when it dawns on her that she destroyed Paris, and that she made a terrible mistake, not just have it fixed with a little time travel magic. But then that would probably mean that the show ended on such a tragic note. Eh, Thomas is creative. He’ll figure it out.
Gem Rivers Yeah I agree, I hated the whole episode, it didn’t surprise me or make me feel sad :( for the characters, the use of time travel is stupid (and NOT how logical time travel would work otherwise I’m pretty damn sure they’d get tons of different bunnyx’s coming to the main timeline asking “to save their timeline” that pissed me off so much) there was no lasting effects in the main universe (it would’ve been a prime episode for Marinette to actually find out Chat Noir’s identity) but at this point, I wouldn’t think it’s right to say that Thomas can dig himself out of the hole he’s made if he can’t even give Marinette real flaws, but we can be hopeful
Mona Bohamad2 ahem,, Avatar the Last Airbender, Steven Universe, Gravity Falls, Ben 10, Sofia the First, Young Justice, The Lion Guard, Ninjago, Avengers, Kim Possible.... All covered kids show stuff while being smart. Heck I could also include Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Phineas and Ferb, Adventure Time, Regular Show, Doc McStuffins, The Amazing World of Gumball, And that’s not including the live action ones or ones I deemed ‘too teenage’ it’s not hard to make a good show for children, not hard to make an over arching plot, not hard to make episodic plots, not hard to make consistent and likeable characters with flaws. They’ve brought romance, death and daddy issues into a kids show, if you wanted to make ‘not smart’ you shouldn’t have brought those themes in to begin with :) Have a lovely day!
I feel like they were trying to go for a strong female main character which is great, but if you're gonna do that you have to actually make it... good.. Not make her insane lol
Yes, she is a Mary Sue He only "Flaws" is too be QUIRKY. Besides that she's pretty, talented, strong, doesn't face consequences for her actions, and everybody seen to love her
@@kabsageigj8941 Adrien is one of those character for the people in the show as he present like this super model, multi talented, smart, A+ student, rich, all the girls are after him, and obviosly good looking (literally is consider it perfection to many people in the show)
So Adrien does have a terrible backstory, but his whole character is based on him being perfect. To the public, Adrien is the perfect son and model but irl he’s not. He has to act like he is perfect at everything for his father’s image. And he did make some mistakes, like copycat, and a lot more that I didn’t follow up with. While Adrien does make other boys seem lesser than him, it’s cause he’s a model duh. I mean, he’s bound to have fan girls, yet Ladybug completely overshadowed him when he’s Chat.
@@kabsageigj8941 Adrien perfect? He (as chat noir) is the jester of the show. He is useless, even clumsy and a lot of times look like fool, like in reflekdoll. he totally depends on ladybug an alone is useless (almost all times). Thats why i don't consider him a gary stu. He is always capturated.
Also, I just realized something, she actually does have a "dark and troubled past". Remember how it was revealed in Origins how she was bullied by Chloe for several years and always made fun of for being clumsy? That counts. It troubled her throughout most of her school years, bullying is a serious subject that has lead to dark and tragic consequences for some like suicide, and this used to happen a lot to her. She does have a dark and troubled past. It's not as big as losing a parent or witnessing the death of your entire clan but it still counts.
Yeah a dark past doesn't mean having parents dead or other things. Bullying does have negative effects. Maybe she didn't have any suicidal thoughts or attempts from Chloe, because that would be way too dark for the show, and Chloe is just rude and thinks she's above others which makes her unpleasant. I think no one has a perfect family life. Marinette's parents love her and support her all the way, and that's a thing that doesn't make her a Mary sue. I have loving and caring parents, but they make mistakes and imperfect. That doesn't mean I'm perfect or have a perfect life. My parents had problems before but I still love them and they love me back too.
*It is* mentionned that she was bullied by chloe, but it doesn't really inffluence/change her ; it seems to be her more to make you feel sad fir her than really anything...? They also implied/made it seems more like if it was just an annoying girl teasing her/being rude to her sometimes then really being that big of a deal ? Idk how to explain it,but to me it felt like if the authors said that "oh, this character is being abused at home !" but the only thing the parents do is sometime scold their child.....(it's just an example)
*The should should have been mostly about Adrien. His family drama is more interesting then a shy girl that designs for famous people. Adrien definitely deserves more screen time, lmao.*
First comment and I say "Yes. Yes she is". Also, there IS a universal checklist of a Mary-Sue. Look it up. Having a happy backstory could also be used for Mary-Sues, might I add. It's not always a tragic backstory. So, I think it's more 3 out of 4, and that makes her mostly a Mary-Sue. I would also like to add that although there are times she learns lessons, she never suffers dire consequences or witnesses them, except in Chat Blanc and Miracle Queen. She also gets away with being pretty rude to Chat most of the time. Yes, she has room to grow. But I think she does need to be more vulnerable.
She is (Rude) to ChatNoir bc he goes to kiss her and always flirts with her even though he knows it makes her very uncomfortable and she does have dire consequences SHE LITTUARLLY REVEALED ALL THE IDENTITY OF EVERY HEROE, MADE MASTER FU LOSE HIS MEMORY ALMOST KILLED ALL OF PARIS but yeah totally not mary sue
I think she is right behind the border. One wrong trait and she becomes one. And well, the easiest way to fix it would be giving cat noir some saved the day moments and some new powers (because why the heck she has four and he has two, literally a blatant mary sue move)...
She didn't really suffer any consequences in the season finale. Fu did as well as the other hero's because of their dentities being exposed to Hawkmoth did.... Her consequences were basically becoming the guardian ie she was PROMOTED as in REWARDED😂. MARY freakin SUE.
On point number three, (characters being uncharacteristically incompetent to make the Sue look better), I feel like Chat Noir is slowly becoming more useless over time, to the point where he comes off as a comic relief sidekick without a brain of his own, while Ladybug can save the day without him just as easily as she can save it with him. Chat Noir is given less time to show his competence as the series goes on; he's twisted into looking like an idiot so that Ladybug comes off looking better in comparison. It's probably my biggest beef with the show, and one of the more damning strikes against the writing for Marinette/Ladybug.
I feel like marinette is wayyy to perfect as a character. She does mistakes but usually the only consecuences she gets its that she feels bad about it and imediatly fixes it by the end or half the episode. Furthermore all her mistakes that actually are shown as bad as the show are usually things that you can´t blame entirely on her. And she also is said repetively that she is the epidome of a good person and thats???not true??? She hates Chloe with a passion and even celebrated when she was going to leave, she sometimes uses her ladybug persona to sabotage other people like lila, she dosen´t trust adrien when he is alone in the house with lila and she trespasses to his house and the show in no way sees this as a bad thing?? Like most of these are understandable but that these flaws exist and the show brushes them over and said that she is the most perfecct person (chrismas episode and the episode when lila almost gets her out of school). It also bothers me because in any other character, mostly in characters like cloe, these actions would put ypu into the bad action/person box imediatly.
I honestly think that Mari is a little bit of a cross between a sue and paragon because I heard one characteristic of a paragon is that they always tend to believe they're doing the right thing. I think this characteristic fits her well. Mari always thinks she's doing the right thing unless she is directly disproven.
Okay, I really like Marinette but there's something that's really been bothering me about her character. I might end up bashing her character. Marinette is a stalker and needs to face the consequences of it. I will absolutely drop the show if Adrien finds Marinette memorizing his schedules, breaking into his house, his room, his locker, or watching him from afar is romantic. I cannot stand shows that make actions like this okay. Literally the crush Marinette has over Adrien is more of an obsession and makes me cringe because she acts worse than Chloe over this. In the Bubbler, Marinette is all "I have to save my parents!" but when she sees Adrien and Chloe, she uses her lucky charm for a horrible reason and decides to go give him a note than save the adults. There have been various times she drops everything because of Adrien and was even biased enough to give him a miraculous. I don't even want to talk about the firefighter who helped her break into the mansion and we're never caught. Their relationship is getting at toxic levels as the seasons pass by and it's irritating. I shipped them at first but Marinette's actions just keep getting worse, especially when jealous. Okay, I am prepared for any arguments from you people. I just really needed to let this all out. Just don't expect me to respond because I'm not going to bother.
In my opinion there are levels of mary sues. Marinette is a mary sue. There are some characters tha rank higher yes, but she's still a mary sue. I think she checks the second point: her mistakes are not serious, and the ones that look like serious ends up being something good. When somebody is akumatized by her or anyone, nothing serious happens, she saves the day and everything goes back to the original state. About master fu, well, he wasn't a very good example of "useful" mentor: lost two miraculous and damaged one; destroyed a temple; and couldn't solve the riddle for the special skills after trying for a long time, marinette solved it in 10 secs. After hawk moth got rid of him, marinette became the new guardian, she got a promotion, maybe she will be stressed and have a hard time at the begining being the new guardian, but at the end she will be surely the best guardian ever. About loosing her "team"; well, everybody there is replaceable, she can find new miraculous users among her firends, even more, there are more miraculous that haven't been used. Lets be honest, Fu wasn't very useful what did he do well? he used to showed up to let her choose a miraculous. We never saw him training them or something. And you missed other abilities she has: she is an excellent gamer, won a tournament and beated easily (really easily) the gamer boy in her school who was practicing one year for that tournament. She is excellent designer, the anna wintour of her world was about to take her to new york to design there, a famous rockstar wanted her to design the cover os his new album. Shes a good baker, this one is justified, but it's still another thing she does great. She wouldn't be the ultimate mary sue, but she's definitely one of them.
Master Fu as a mentor had such promise to me, but there’s hardly any screen time devoted to him and Marionette just discussing anything or training. The times we do see them conversing is when there’s an Akuma problem or set up to an Akuma problem. It makes sense, I know, but it’s still kinda annoying that the writers don’t use those moments as opportunities to expand on the lore and SHOW how Marionette is getting stronger/more knowledgable. When he’s shown, expect a new power/secret to beat the villain and maybe some crumbs of backstory. I also find it annoying how Adrien/Cat Noir is purposefully excluded from learning about the Miraculous backstories. Fine, the show doesn’t want the two to know each others identities, but come on?! Why does Marionette/LB get special time with a Guardian, when A/CN (the legit other half of the freakin’ main Miraculous holders!) has to figure it out on his own and be left in the dark?! It really keeps them from being a better team since it creates a wall of secrets and mistrust between them, while also limiting their potential to grow stronger together. Adrien is very active in his civilian life, yes, but there was potential to have CN become a stronger fighter and maybe dwell more into just how powerful his destruction can be. In Chat Blanc he literally destroyed part of the word and some of the moon! And you got that tied to the body of a teenage boy with various issues and pressures. Fu should be keeping this in mind and making sure the holder of the chaos/destruction Miraculous understands just how important it is for them to keep a steady head. When Fu was shown going to Adrien at the end of ‘Syren’ at M/LB’s request, I was totally excited for it. Teaching both in secret, right under Hawk Moth’s nose, and maybe seeing more of Plagg’s personality beyond “loves cheese and causing mischief.” Alas, we’re never shown him seeing Adrien again beyond that stupid house party episode, Adrien never mentions anything to Plagg about learning something new, and CN is still implied to be left in the dark. Master Fu, you have how many years of Guardian experience and you can’t see how much you’re holding back the duo cause you rather follow M/LB’s advice than your own? Honestly, this show hates the obvious and wants to keep Marionette as number 1 while screwing over the other characters.
Marinette is lowkey a little insane for a 14 year old though, like imagine breaking into your crushes house just because some other girl is with him even though he got it under control, she’s lowkey obsessing over adrien now
Mona Bohamad2 she stopped? no no no i think her it got worse in season three, in fact, season 3 was horrendous LOL the second hand embarrassment though
@@tapiwankhata3111 ehh update season 4 in my opinion is defo better for Mari characters seeing as we are near the end well her character is a tad bit better than season 3 oh god season 3 absolutely sucked balls, but anyway in s4 we actually get some good episodes (some still are bad but hey it is mlb) anyway as people have been asking for ages for her to have consequences we actually do in part 1 of the season 4 finale her friends basically call her out for trying to stop Adrien from leaving (which hysterically was actually a good choice as he didn’t want to but hey) and Adrien actually tells her his feelings and instead of being all obsessed and flustered she actually does something we thought was impossible, she actually listened like a good friend wow (and also we get a scene for shippers i guess) so yeah thats great i guess but mostly just normal (weird) Mari so i guess for once we actually get answered and for the second or third time i, actually like Mari (the other time being when she breaks down in gang of secrets and of course the consequences)
4. Tragic Backstory That Makes Mary-Sue Look Impressive "Thankfully, Marinette doesn't have that *at all"* Exactly. That's a problem. Her life is way too *perfect.* She has a huge bedroom, her own frickin balcony, two loving parents, almost every classmate is her friend, knows tons of famous people in Paris, many guys have/had a crush on her, she's super talented in her passion, out of everyone, she was chosen to be Ladybug pretty much instantly, her major flaw is being cLuMsY, etc.
she's not just clumsy though, she's also got a major anxiety disorder which is why she overthinks things a lot. She actually makes mistakes as Ladybug and Marinette and knows she's now flawless, but fans and people in the show thinks she's perfect because she hasn't been sad or upset about anything in her life. She's openly optimistic. Which is why I'm excited for her in season 4 because she actually might get character depth now!
I feel like the main thing that makes me notice she is a mary sue is that if she wasnt in 1 episode, the whole show would collapse. Nobody is competent like her, they all need her. I feel like they need to start thinking the show from diferent perspectives.
It won’t. In the Shanghai special she’s following Adrien across the continent. And in season 4 she’ll try to confess to Adrien even tho he’s dating Kagami.
Sorry, but she's been a MS for three full seasons, there's no way come back from that this late in the game without suddenly breaking the established dynamics in a way that won't feel natural. The only way to fix it is to nuke her from orbit and start over from scratch.
@@monabohamad2242 Okay, so what do you propose as a viable solution? How can they fix it going forward without retconning half of the previously established canon? I don't mind that you disagree, but I am curious how you feel it should be handled. Keep in mind, at this point, suddenly having CN be competent or randomly making LB not the best will be jarring to the audience, since he's been incompetent and she has been overly capable for 3 seasons. You also need to do it in a way that will feel organic and won't rely on tearing down or demeaning ladybug. The point is to make her more likable to the audience and to establish CN as a proper hero in his own right, not revenge writing. The reason I say it should reboot is because at this point changing the character dynamics is like suddenly changing the style of a building half through construction. It doesn't have the right foundation or framework to support the change.
@@aprilvaiarella435 its never too late to fix stuff, they can fix it but they need a good thing to fix it, like why marinette is acting like this if the writers come up with an idea and make an episode of marinette saying why or idk and she changes to a good person and has more character development and adrien/CN will get more screen time the show can be saved, and everything can end up good, its not too late and i dont want them to start over it will take years.
I feel like marinette had so much potential, at the start of the show she’s shown as a girl who loves fashion and loves to play video games. but as the show went on it’s only about how much she loves adrien and that’s it. Like when she went to Shanghai , she could have gone for fashion reasons and to get inspiration as well as have a nice vacation. But instead, the writers make it about marinettes love for adrien. It’s like they replaced her hobbies and personality completely, from the beginning if you had to describe her it would be “a kind person, an expert fashion designer, and a clumsy but loveable girl” but now it’s just “that one girl who likes adrien”
I'd actually rlly love to see her in a shopping spree or smth and put on different clothes; that would be fun! they could make a whole movie out of that for us gurlz 😗
I think what makes her a strong contender for the Mary Sue title is Tikki. As lb, they are one and the same and she slowly rubs off on Mari throughout the show, giving confidence and knowledge. If anyone, Tikki should be the Mary Sue, being the arguably wisest character and providing the right tool to use at the right time.
Kayleigh G But Tikki is a literal god and has been around for thousands of years. It makes sense for her to smart and wise and perfect. Mari, on the other hand, is only a teen.
The biggest thing that holds the show back is the fact that they decided to make it so ONLY Ladybug can cleanse the akumas. This creates a situation where nothing bad can ever happen to her because otherwise it's an automatic lose. They had a single chance to flip the script in the episode Reflekdoll where they swap miraculous with each other and for once Adrien could be the star and perhaps something bad could happen to Marinette. But no. Instead, they decided to make Adrien the butt of the joke once again and prop Marinette up even higher by making him struggle to use the powers and having Marinette excel easily at using Chat's, while teasing about his being the "easy job" and him admitting that it's difficult to do hers. It's so frustrating that every other character plays second fiddle to her, even Chat Noir when he's supposed to be her equal as Thomas even said himself. Perhaps he doesn't realize how much they're downplaying and belittling Chat's character. Beyond this, it's also frustrating how successful she is. I get that they want to create a character that's empowering and inspiring to little girls - but couldn't they do that through multiple characters rather than just a single one? There are a ton of other characters, females and males, that could have had the talents Marinette has, spread across them all. She's good at everything, loved by everyone (except by unlikable characters) and this is despite her making a lot of mistakes and hurting other people's feelings. You'd think if that's the case then people would be less inclined to love her as much as they do. They don't need to hate her but at least make some characters a bit indifferent to her or mildly dislike her. But that's just my take on it. Like everyone else, I enjoy the show but there are definitely some flaws which I wish would be addressed.
Right?! Not to mention they made all the other heroes absolutely WORTHLESS to make her look good! They nerfed Venom to the point where instead of a showstopper it’s more of a minor inconvenience, Mirage is only limited to one illusion (which btw is bad if your primary power is illusion). Cataclysm? Distraction. Voyage? Plot device. Oh but of course the only POWERFUL ability goes to Mr. Freaking Perfect Luka (!) WTF?! Nope. You know what? I’m siding with Hawk Moth.
I know right! And before anyone says anything about it, Chat also struggled using his miraculous at first. It just wasn't shown on screen. As we know, he started earlier since he didn't listen to Plagg. So, if anyone tries using that as an argument against you, just know that it doesn't make sense.
bc of how perfect marinette and her life is, it makes me feel bad and insecure abt myself. like damn imagine having your parents, your classmates, your friends and literally everyone AND THEIR DAMN MOM in paris love u?????? that's not how teenagers live?????
It may sound silly but I relate to that sentiment especially when I was younger. Eventually I realized it was more of a me problem than a problem with the show. But I can still acknowledge that Marinette does have an unrealistically fortunate life.
1.Traditionally Beautiful: Yes 2.Perfect Hair: Yes I think 3 gets the guy in the end: She's GOING to get Adrien in the end (Even tho its stupid and the relationship is forced) @t: Yes 5.Has Super abilities: Yes 6.Can Fly: No 7.Has Telepathy: No 8.Saves The World: Yes (You could argue that she only saves but in the chat blanc episode Adrien could have ended the world so) 9.Has Strange Name: No 10 Saves Puppies Or Kitties : In episodes we sometimes see LB And CN saving a cat and doing small jobs so I would assume yes. 11.Has Heterochromia ( two different colored eyes ): No 12 Exotic Hair Compared to other characters.: No @t: No 14.Friends that just happen to support her (Even if she did nothing to give them to): Yes 15.Hidden Powers: Yes And the that every mary sue has to have is... Are They 16 Clumsy?: Yes
I will unrepentantly shout it from the rooftops because I'm not, in slightest bit, sorry. I've been shouting it since season one. I hate Marinette. She is the reason I stopped watching the show.
I always thought she was a bit full of herself and her jealousy is wayyyy out of hand. If Lila didn’t like adrien then marinette would have been friends with her but her jealousy didn’t let her. And Jesus Christ the amount of times she’s got people akumatised and then she gets mad at Chloé for doing the same thing...hypocrisy much?
Okay but the scene that proved to be that she’s most definitely a Mary Sue is in Kwami Buster when she legit uses every miraculous in the box and Master Fu warns her of how dangerous that is, but all that happened was her falling over and coughing for two seconds. Then, she was perfectly fine the rest of the episode. Riddle me that!!
Well she has trained with him & is naturally athletic thanks to her working at the bakery. The show just does awful job of showing and not telling. Adrien is given more depth, compared to Marinette who her only character trait is loving Adrien. She's treated as a joke whereas Adrien gets to be the smart one which is so sexist honestly. Adrien is root cause as to why she hasn't developed.
I heard a simple definition of Mary Sue from Literature Devil. When the rules of a world bend around to make the protagonist look better, then that character is a Mary Sue.
The problem with Marinette is that her non Mary-Sue qualities just feed into the feeling that she’s a Mary-Sue. For example, her being super creepy in puppet master. Any normal person would be really creeped out by that and probably try to avoid her in the future but Adrien of course believes her bs lies because “she is a good person and totally not creepy” Even when she makes mistakes everything works together to fix it without her even learning a lesson half the time. In that episode you’d think she’d realise “hey, maybe I’m a creep” but no she continues to fantasies about being with Adrien even after he mentions likening another girl!
Eh well i guess after a yr later your still technically right but we could argue that she also has some actual non Mary-Sue traits that don’t link to her being one like her breakdowns and stress as guardian which is still unbelievable that shes like what 14-15 and damm i don’t know why but its so satisfying seeing her breakdown (I’m scared mentally for myself) thats my take anyway a yr later you prob already know or have left this fandom so idk
Someone else in the comments covered all the things I wanted to say but I will say my part . I dont like marrinate because I think shes a Mary sue its mlre that she too many good things happening to her at her age . being a great gamer,designer,artist ,class rep,baker,having good grades,is friends with a popular guitar player and made designs for the fashion guru of Paris andhaving only two people that dont like her. I'm sorry everyone but that's way too much stuff for a teen to do if she was older that be semi ok.But a teen? Heck no I also don't like that there's too many people that like marinette like there's barely anyone that doesn't like being around her not hate just they domt like being around her . I also think that half the stuff shes good at like gamer and artist part should be null and void cause even good designer don't need to be great artist My last two point can be summed up to personal preference. Shes too perfect when it comes to her social life cause she has an answer to everything by the end of the episode after being lady bug which wouod be fine and all if we had a time to understand why she gets the answer outside her being lady bug amd thats the issue she basically ladybug without the mask on and thats boring I would rather have her stay clumsy and make mistakes ratger than being everyone problem solver the second she defeats the akuma ots not entertaining cause its boring you can predict this very easy . My last point is her personality. She strikes me as a lady who would do extreme things to make sure adrien stays with her and season 3 met my fears she went from potential loveble standard hero to a creepy stalker that gets away with her and makes Chloe amd Lila look tame(that last part is extreme but you get my point). Even if marinate isn't a Mary sue the way the show is writhing her its very easy to call her one cause we dont get to see more of her flaws or that she is not liked by mlre than 3 people in the show .
I don’t view her as a Mary Sue, but I agree when he says the show should depend on back characters (ESPECIALLY Kitten Noir) more. In all honesty she does kinda make everyone seem like trash (except Chat he could never be trash, he’s too hot)
I wish they’d let her friends contribute working ideas to defeating villains. Like Chat Noir. That way the show could give the lesson that friends are important too.
I hate that she is the only one who can get rid off an Akuma. Like seriously, how are the other herpoes supposed to be heroes? Also, the scene where she cries in front of Luka is, considering all the things she does (draw, design, bake, play video games, study to get good grades, have a good social life, enough sleep, save Paris all the time and stalk Adrien brrr), one of the most realistic ones. I wonder how she gets full sleep every night.
Apparently, and I'm not sure if this is true, but one of the power ups that master fu made for chat noir and ladybug, is that if marinette were to get akumatized, there is a power up that chat can capture the akuma or he can cataclysm it as shown in chat blanc I'm not sure if this is true I have just heard of this theory and I do think it's a bit unfair how ladybug can only capture it without using her one-time power
For the next season, I hope Marinette suffers from burnout and questions being ladybug. I mean common, look at what all she has done and tell me why she shouldn't be suffering from some sort of burnout? I hope she stops being so creepy with Adrien thanks to kagami, and I hope she starts building something with chat. I feel like she treats chat like this disposable sidekick completely disregarding his feelings. He dosent feel like a friend. I hope she freaking becomes normal because it's getting harder to watch if she's just being this stalkery perfect teenager. Like aah-
Maybe, when listing her good qualities she should be compared to other characters. Adrien is a model, he plays piano, does fencing, speaks Chinese and is a nice person. Alya has a blog that becomes quite famous during the seasons, she is smart, she can handle troublesome kids, she is also nice, she is a good dancer and does parkour or something with Nino in one episode. Nino is a DJ who gets to work at Gabriel Agreste's fashion show, that's impressive, and yes, he is nice too. Marinette's friends have a band that also does quite well. Many of the characters do quite unusual things and are nicer to each others than average teens. Marinette's good qualities and successes do not stand out that much from the good qualities and successes of other characters.
I have to agree with you, this comment actually has substance. While some people are saying Marinette is not relatable at all because she has hobbies, good grades, a passion, and is a superhero, she actually is just as relatable as her friends. Obviously some people aren't going to see themselves in her because they don't have the same interest or are the opposite of her personality, but that doesn't mean people like her don't exist in the real world (minus the super hero because that doesn't exist on Earth). For some people she might seem too perfect but she actually has many flaws and is actually a decent teen nothing above average in terms of being kind, and creative enough to get as much things done. (also if you're one of the many unlucky souls out there that has done IB then you know you have to become more than Marinette to survive that thing)
This why I don't like the term "mary-sue" that much because it implies that the problem with a character is how perfect they are when that's not actually what the problem is with "mary-sue" characters. It's a little more complicated than that and harder to point out. I think other people were saying it correctly when they described it as the story and characters bending to make the "mary-sue" character look better. For example, Adrien is good at a lot of things but is shown to be a bad Ladybug in order to make Marinette look better as Chat Noir. I'd rather not argue over whether or not a character is perfect because I think those type of characters can be interesting. In my opinion, Marinette just isn't interesting and doesn't appeal to me as a main character.
I wish they made chat noir more important, they are a team and talk about needing to work together but she really doesn’t need him in battle. Poor chat noir is supposed to be just as powerful as her, but he isn’t.
Honestly Astruc keeps screwing over Chat Noir. He's supposed to be the perfect balance to ladybug, succeeding where she fails, etc., but he keeps getting put off and pushed to the sidelines. Chat Blanc showed us that he has the power to destroy the entire universe, so why not use it? Having him be more successful than ladybug would be a refreshing change if pace, because we've seen ego go to his head before and it would change up their dynamic.
The thing with Marinette is for her wrong actions she doesn’t get disciplined- and she sometimes abuses her power as LB- and is overall creepy- in the end she can basically get away with anything if she tried-
I think that she definitely has characteristics of being a Mary Sue and the way to begin changing that I think would definitely for her to be akumatised. There have been hints that she will be akumatised and she almost was a couple of times. It would definitely show her vulnerability and her need to actually rely on the other characters. Though this may take awhile.
She totally fits 2 second point, she is always right, there's this episode where screws things because she wasn't expecting a client to get a cake, and because of time travel shenanigans, there were no consequences for her. All the guys that get possessed are just freed at the end of the episode and has no consequence at all after that, and from the 2 "big" examples you gave, one was mostly so that she could shine even more, she is now the guardian "and the best guardian ever" I'm sure because... this show. And the other is irrelevant, even filler, because it doesn't affect at all, she was against reveling identities, anyway. The fourth one I've never even heard about before, the definition of a Mary Sue is "An essentially perfect character superior to everyone else that, that can do everything by herself, she is superior to everybody in everything without any training, always righteous, and when they make something wrong, it solves itself and make everybody else look inferior by comparation while only having small flows that can be actually assets like being too good or caring to much, or being adorably clumsy".
I think that she's a half Mary sue like how can she keep her calm and lose her anger very quickly and she 's always scoring good grades she's all most good at everything she does She always gets the spot light while catnoir is no where to be seen in the camera but what does she give catnoir rejections and excuses not to be with him and gets annoyed when he does not fo things right and when CN is sad she's like "catnoir don't get all pouty on me" but catnoir gives her hope,support and love even when she does not come to his Invitation dates CN bares it anyway. I JUST HOPE SEASON FOUR AND FIVE ARE BETTER
The time where Marinette broke down in front of Luka was a very emotional moment that showed that she's not just a perfect statue. I hope they expand on that idea and like you said show her vulnerabilities a bit more. And I hope Kagami and Luka appear more in Season 4 to help Marinette and Adrien grow on their own and discover their honest feelings
She is most definitely not a Mary Sue but the show treats her like one. By the show, I mean the characters and the environment she is in are always supporting her regardless of her bad actions and her stalker ways. She is bad very little times for comedy but then they make her so unbelievable skillful out of no where and sometimes it makes Adrien/Chat look horrible for her sake.
People dont realize but her crush on adrian doesnt seem creepy because shes the main character. But it's so weird. Shes literally like a fangirl at times.
Thank god the movie kinda in a way fixed her a bit considering that while she was in NY, paris was being destroyed and she felt helpless because she couldn't do anything and yeah i get that Adrien needs more attention considering his back story but remember this show was mainly meant for young girls so it's no surprise that ladybug just happens to be the main focus of the show but the show is barely hitting the tip of the iceberg so I'm sure Adrien is going to get a lot of attention as the show progresses, it's a long shot but I'm sure Thomas will have something in store for us soon
I think Astruc started believing that because Marinette was the protagonist, everything important had to happen to her. Unfortunately, that causes a huge imbalance in character development (between Marinette/Adrien and Ladybug/Cat Noir). While she gains confidence as both a civilian and superheroine, Adrien remains flat and one-dimensional (because the important things are not happening to him, and Astruc won't let him grow the same way). In that case, I think it would have been better not to have Cat Noir at all, or at least for us to not know his civilian identity. (Then he truly would be viewed as just a comic-relief sidekick, as they seem so keen to make him now.) But we do, and we care about Adrien, too. After all, the show began with the premise that the ladybug and black cat miraculous were equal but opposite. Different powers, but both essential. It was supposed to be a partnership - a team. I think Astruc went too far with Marinette in the last season in a clear attempt to highlight her as the main (and maybe his favorite?) character, and it backfired. She was so nasty, and it made me lose my respect for her. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
You forgot a big one. Marinette hates liying. In Zombuzou she was already to teach Chloé a lesson. And in chameleon Marinette was clearly struggling to not strike Lila. She even balls her fist in both confrontations. Even Lila thought Marinette was going to punch her. That’s enough to knock common Mary Sue to a nope. And she made several BIG mistakes that a MARY SUE would never ever make mistakes. 1 forgetting to transform back to Marinette and leading the two BIGS BADS to all the Miraculous. 2 not even acknowledging Chloé who was in a desperate state to save her family. At that moment Chloé was a shell a Husk. In that moment you could technically say Chloé was dead. And by ladybug/Marinette. And Mary Sues don’t do that. And Miracle Queen was a powerful akuma. And Mary Sues won’t cause akumas. In fact Marinette is up there with Chloé and Lila in causing akumas. Check the next comment for akumas.
Marisue is most definitely a Mary sue. Since this words has so much definitions,I'm going to say them all : A Mary sue is loved by everyone since day 1,is perfect,beautiful,kind,has no problem handling multiple things at once. "Buuut she couldn't handle guardianship in S4,and she has flaws too." Is that so ? Wait till you see the other definition. A Mary sue makes the entire plot bend just to make her seem in the spotlight. If you watched the S5 finale,you'll understand. That's Marinette. She's a Mary sue. And guess what ? This description also awfully reminds me Zoe. Because shes also a mary sue herself.
thomas never listens to criticism or advice, when you give the tiniest bit of ideas or criticism he'll block you. I find that really annoying about him
Because fans harass him constantly and send death threats, so it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't want to listen to them. I wish the fans were more patient with him and respect that its his show and so he can do whatever the hell he wants with it. The MLB fandom are worse than him tbh
the biggest may sue move was when she put on 72802782 miracoulouses at the same time and the whole episode where she does that. and master du said like “shes so great noone did this before shes so strong shes so smart and shell be a great keeper”
I feel the major indicator of a Mary Sue is that the universe 'bends' around that character rather than them having tragic backstories or always making the right decisions. Take Ray from Star wars: Magically uses the force to levels beyond trained masters after hearing about it. Able to pilot spaceships better than expert pilots. Loved by characters who just met her. Still got captured multiple times. The real thing about Mary Sues is that they don't have to deal with the consequences, or are rewarded instead of punished for their mistakes. Ray gets captured? Oh look she got new powers or made the bad guy fall in love with her. Ladybug lead hawkmoth to the miraculous box? Oh look, now she is the new guardian with ALL the miraculous. Ladybug's mistakes have consequences, but she is not the one who suffers them in reality. When Hawkmoth got the miraculous box, she didn't suffer a consequence, Fu did. She was rewarded with ownership of the box. "But she lost he mentor" Fu was barely a mentor, he didn't train them in anything, he gave them to power up potions(which Marinette had to complete for him), and rented the miraculous to her. But the sacrifice of his memory wasn't her consequence, as he gets to retire with the one he loves, and clearly retains the feeling of liking Marinette, just like Cat Noir literally killing himself multiple times for her is not HER consequence, she just saves the day and brings him back and everything returns to status quo. Whatever Marinette does something that is clearly wrong, it is always made, by plot or someone else's sacrifice, something that ultimately she suffers nothing for doing. The worst she gets for things SHE does wrong is getting a stern talking-to by Tikki. It isn't that everyone just loves Marinette, it is that the universe loves her and goes out of the way to make sure she never has to suffer any lasting damage for what she does. She has literally committed crimes in her creepy stalking of Adrian, and it's always handwaved because the universe loves her.
There's actually a fanfiction (I forgot the title) where Chloe is the main character, she has many flaws and a tragic back story of not having enough parental love, but over time, she managed to learn humility along the way, gave up her Miraculous to make sure Sabrina and her parents are safe through secrecy and indirectly helps the main and supporting Miraculous holding characters in her own Chloe way She is still bratty but she uses this against people who are hostile to the main protagonist which is Lady Bug and Chat Noir
People countlessly refer to her as someone who always has the right idea at the right time and someone who always fixes everything. Ladybug also once took on rogercop, lady wifi, evillustrator, AND CHAT NOIR all at the SAME TIME. That made me mad
Marinette: Do no sport, is "average", she only design... she is super loved by everyone in her school and as a superheroine, is hella agile, has met famous people. Adrien: DO SPORT, has a piano class, is a model, he has the FRIGGIN villain in his FRIGGIN house, feels free as a superhero, has flaws, is nicer, he is friend of the "bad girl" of the school, has a conflict with his father, her mother could be DEAD (read that again) his father always work (and he is the bad guy) and has the power of destroy things... yet is treated as usless, is always beat by a villain, and is not as agile as Ladybug. I insist, if Adrien was the main characther, i could have not stop watching the series.
I don't like when protagonists are given skills in order to make them more likable. I don't think they do this much with Marinette, but often her talent is a plot device to get her into some situation. For example she was suddenly good at video games (I don't remember much foreshadowing of this) just so she and Adrien could be in the video game competition. I don't like when supporting characters don't get to shine because they the main character to get all the glory every time. I think the show has done this a few times but not to the point that it really bothers me. I think a lot of Anime have this problem. A lot of people want a character that can grow. When it comes to Marinette it doesn't seem like she has much room to grow. Has she ever been akumatized?
Almost, three times 1) Chameleon 2) Ladybug 3) Chat Blanc But of course we can't have the only character that can purify an akuma be akumatize and in Chameleon Tikki cheer her up until she manage to get away from the akuma, the other two were practically saved in the last minute by other reasons that would've happened if not for said reasons.
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios and I almost thought that Marinette herself LITERALLY said it'd be GAME OVER or something either that or you're probably we might have to wait and see I guess
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios wouldn't he have to use 2 cataclysms, which he currently can't since he's still young and not strong enough to remain transformed after using his power. I'm saying this because he would have to break Mari's miraculous to release the akuma since that's where the akumas usually seem to aim when she nearly gets akumatized. And to do so he would have to cataclysm her earnings, which then means that he will de-transform into Adrien and if he tries to re-transform the akuma will have left and if not Mari might discover his identity. I don't think it's going to happen soon since it wouldn't match the pace of the series, maybe when they make the reveal because they both would be more aware of fact that they have to keep each other safe or else Paris is doomed, and also because Mari needs time to get used to being the new Miraculous box keeper, so if her miraculous was to be broken when releasing the akuma she would know how to repair it quickly. This also gives them time to learn how to use their special power more than one time before their de-transformation
I had no idea what a Mary-Sue was until this video. Very nice and clear about what a Mary-Sue is and how much of it fits with Marinette. Just like her nickname, Mari, she is halfway there. I hope she doesn't end up a cliché
In season 3 Marinette popularity is going down hill fast. It because of Lie-la. Lie-la too Alya from her. I think that actually knocks indicator #1 off. By the end of season 3 she was being bullied more then whatever Chloé did.
Honestly I liked Marinette but I really couldn't relate to how she acted around Adrien. Like yeah, sure, there are totally girls out there who are creepily boy obsessed, but honestly as a teen girl myself it feels so... I dont know... off. It was annoying to see almost everything she was doing come back to Adrien and her crush, but that's to veexoected from a romance plot I guess ahaha
i like marinette but i feel like the writers don't do much with her-- or perhaps, because of how the episodes are structured, it really feel like nothing is happening to her or the people around her. with anything she does wrong immediately gets resolved besides a handful of things, and never brought up again. i believe the writers are trying to write a character that young girls can aspire to be like, which is great, but also... a little dose of reality is nice lol-- especially for those of us that are older and don't care about seeing idolized people. with that said, i think me liking marienette is because of the fanfics that i read, which ground her out more than the actual show does. most of the time when i'm watching the show, i sorta just skip through it and still get the basic ideas-> marinette or someone makes akumatized victim feel bad, akumatized victim goes rampant, ladybug takes them out, situation is resolved, everyone moves on like it never happens. :< i normally don't like shows with this sort of episodic structure, i'm more of an overall plot type of gal, but now i'm 3 seasons in ;;
I think she’s half half Mary Sue she learns from chat noir in gamer 2.0 not to rush into things and have fun then uses that at the end of the ep she takes people advice making her seem perfect but in turn it’s mostly tiki and others
This made me realize that Adrian is also a Mary Sue! Even more so than Marinette, bc despite his tragic backstory he’s a nice, well adjusted teenager with a good moral code and selfless attitude, his only drawback being he’s a tad oblivious.
I really want Chat Noir to save the day just ONCE, like LB can leave Paris for a day or she can be in trouble and it's up to hik to save her and the town (and the person being akumatized)
“In the day time I’m Marinette. Just a normal girl with a normal life.”
- is friends with a French model
- uncle is world’s greatest chef
- bff runs most popular blog
- is acknowledged by the most famous fashion designer
- babysits for a famous reporter
- is friends with a superhero (as Marinette)
- parents own the best bakery in Paris
- is literally friends with or knows multiple celebrities
- parents love and support her 100% unconditionally (is that normal???)
- lives across the street from school
Me: no you aren’t stop lying
Im french and most of my friends meet your 1 or 2 of your conditions each times 😂 but ALL OF THEM at the same time are really unusual
i love how "lives across the street from school" is included
She is enemy of Major's dauther. 😂😂😂😂
My elementary school was legitimately on my street
that one girl Dnag if that’s a normal life Where can i get one?
Both Adrien and Marinette are portrayed as main characters/protagonists, but I kinda wish Adrien got more screen time and was focused on more...his story and drama has so much more depth lol
Yea I know
@@issakitungano3341
I kind of disagree
Right? I mean I know it's all about Ladybug but Chat Noir is also in the title of the show too.
Can you tell who’s the favourite protagonist?
Yes! Or like marinette getting kinda akumatized? Hypnotized? Like they always do with chat noir
Edit: forgot how it was said at the time but gets controlled by a akumatized person like when chat noir got controlled by dark Cupid, Or princess fragrance,
I dunno why, but the thing that always bothered me when it came to Marinnete's character is the fact that outside of her ladybug persona, she is supossed to be a normal teenage girl ( it even says so in the theme song), but like, she is not?? I mean, what other fourteen/fifteen year old has already designed a cover album for a freakin world wide superstar, while drawing is not even their primary hobby? She is also soo charismatic, that she is friends with everyone in her class, and the only time she shows any kind of social struggles is when talking to her crush. Also it was indicated that she is great at baking, and playing video games, AND she also has time to design and sew clothing so great, that the BEST designer in Paris wants them to create clothes for their fashion show or something ( sorry I haven't watched this show for a while), oooh also she manages to keep her grades good, be a class rep, and stalk Adrien, while ALSO saving Paris every single day. I'm sorry but that's not how normal people work. How can she achieve all those things, while being so young, and while having to deal with her personal problems, like is she never sad, or angry, or discouraged? She is supossed to be a teen after all. Anyways in my opinion they should add more stuff, that Marrinette is bad at, beyond being "clumsy". Just to show, that she really is just a normal girl.
(Also sorry for my bad english, I'm not a native speaker)
I think Juleka would be a better MC. She has genuine flaws, is actually interesting and I could see her developing a good bit if given the opportunity to. IDK, just a thought.
Optymistyczna I agree with u
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios Omg, I can see It too! If Juleka was a little more fleshed out character wise ( like giving her a hobby, or a different relation with other characters, (exept of the ones she has with Luka and Rose) she would be really cool and balanced MC. She has social struggles that she can go through and grow on that field, and she isn't portraied as a perfect being that everyone likes. Also In my opinion her family life is a bit more interesting than Marinette's ( the girl is living on a ship ok??)
Optymistyczna And her dad’s gone. Lotta good potential there too. We can see her coming out of her shell and try to overcome her social struggles, and Luka can develop loads as well since we’d see him a lot more. Maybe he’s overprotective of Juleka after their dad left? Some unresolved anger issues?
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios Great, now I want to read this fanfiction hahaha
yes, but instead of her flaws being "shes too trusting and nice" its "shes a jerk and low key insane person"
Project Toll Well, so are half of the other characters. They’re teenagers.
And Yandere, Marinette is Yandere
@@jedyoung767 @Jed Young I think more in the sense that Mari is pretty obsessive over Adrien and blindly assumes he is an amazing, flawless purpose (like in the Felix episode where she instantly knows it's not Adrien not because she knows him well but because he could never do something like that). Also she immediately hates Lila not because she lies to her friends but initially because another girl had the guts to make moves on Adrien. We haven't seen the other teen characters break into any houses or steal things (besides from maybe chloe, I forget) and most normal teens don't act like this in real life anyways.
I kinda wish the show have Adrien realise her creepy obsession and be disgusted by it the same way he would Chloe treating others negatively. And then when she's crying to Alya (and maybe her other friends) about it they'd tell her they'd agree and actually have a fight about it. Then her parents find out about that creeper timetable. The girl needs actual consequences.
And then maybe cat noir makes a remark about it and Ladybug defends mari and then gets clued into her identity that way and finally have Mari be in the dark about something that cat noir isn't.
It’s them hormones they make them crack heads lol. Just kidding
Show writer 1: Hm. People are starting to think Marinette is a Mary Sue.
Show writer 2: Oh no! What are we gonna do about it?
Show writer 1: I was thinking we could slowly make her more vulnerable and let her make more major mistakes to give her character some depth and stuff.
Show writer 3: Or we could suddenly make her a really creepy b*tch who breaks into people's houses and kisses wax statues.
Show writer 1:
Show writer 2:
Show writer 1:
Show writer 2: YEAAAAAAAH
Show writer 1: *YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAH*
yeaaaaah
HELL YEAAAAAAAHHH! ...
but can we also have a handful of girls in on this and use them like for target practice? Let's have her go straight up Fatal Attraction mode, where she doesn't just stalk someone but also anyone by proxy to them too.. Plus the show was made for young girls right? So we'll have them pitted against each other over a guy. .. it will be empowering for girls to watch. But just make sure you write it in a way that has everyone only rooting for Mari not the others...make sure her you write her friends supporting this, possibly helping her along. You know, let's say for an example one can suggest kidnapping one of the target girls etc. shananigins like that .That'll do the trick 🤓
Kitty Kat Ha! Backwarder reference!
Ive never seen something so accurate I--
Ive never seen something so accurate I--
is no one talking abt that christmas episode where SANTA LITERALLY SAID LB WAS THE BEST CHILD IN THE WORLD.......AFTER ALL THOSE BAD THINGS SHE DID
That one, though, was the version of sant that the kid created. He based it off of what she told him, which was that she was the best. Otherwise, why would santa grant a wish? That was something that she obviously made up.
He said lb not mari even santa claus didn't knew who lb was
She kinda is though because she's a hero.
The only reason she’s the best is because the rest of us are even worse
Gear Forth Snake Man that means nothing she cause her fair share of acclimatizations because of her obsession over adrien and her not trusting Chloe
I don't think she a full blown Mary sue but she is a full blown stalker. Also I don't like the fact that she's the only one that can capture the butterflies
It kinda makes you wonder why they even bothered adding the other Miraculous. They did my girl Rena Rouge so dirty.
AlishaToon123 Not to mention Queen Bee too. They nerfed Venom to hell. It only stays active for a couple of minutes. Also, Chloe is a lot more intelligent than they’re giving her credit for. But oh no, God forbid we have an actually competent superhero! Let’s give an IQ of 1! Can’t have her outshining Ladybug! Seriously, I guarantee you if Bee was given the chance to and wasn’t nerfed she could kick LBs ass any day of the week.
Not to mention Chat Noir has the ability to destroy everything and everyone, he could even just cataclysm the akuma. He literally killed EVERYONE in Chat Blanc. They dumb down everyone else to praise Marinette it's like she's on a pedestal where every mistake has no consequences 😒
•b i s c u i t• He could KILL Ladybug if he wanted to.
@@seydk in that episode he actually DESTROYED an akuma, so I don't understand why he doesn't do it more often, it could be useful for an episode that could have Ladybug being trapped or hypnotized.
Honestly the show should've focused a on Adrien more. His life is more interesting and has a lot going on than Marinette's. If Marinette is the focus why did Thomas dump so much drama on Adrian?
True, Marinette is a boring character. I only really watch this stupid show is for Adrien. I agre Adrien is a great character. I want focuse on him more because he is more interesting and has more going on that Marinette. She is so boring., she has a bad personality, creepy relationship, terrible backstory and had terrible character development. Nothing about her character is well written. Also her behavior came out of no where. She definitely needs character flaws to her human and relatable because no one is perfect, we all make mistakes and we all have our flaws. Just make sure they make sense and portrait them decently. Adrien did all these Marinette didn't do. So yeah. I would have liked it if they made Adrien the main character and gave him the character development, he deverses. Also written Marinette better, make her more interesting and complex than the one we got in the show and make her a good female protagonist.
Adrien is kind of a Mary Sue as well. They never show any kind of “bad” traits that he might have. I think the show should’ve been more 50/50 rather than focusing on either one more than the other. After all, they’re a pair with equal powers, the ying-yang of the miraculous.
@@abigailruiz8612 Gary stu
@@mollymcmurtrie8037 I agree but disagree, I mean if Adrien was the main character what is he going to do?? besides getting yelled at by his dad ,be ordered around or have girls running after him etc . But I would like to see what's going on in Adriens head I just don"t think he would be a good main character maybe if he had less rules.
@Universal Eclipse she stalked him multiple times, memorized his schedule, opened his locker, had used his phone before without his permission, has pictures of him everywhere inside her room, she knows everything about him, she acted like a creep on "adrien's wax replica", and literally used her miraculous to enter adrien's room without his permission or knowledge and while in there she touched and SNIFFED his PILLOW, she is not just creepy she is literally obsessed with adrien
Even if Marinette seems like only a borderline Mary-sue, she becomes a full-on Mary-sue whenever she's Ladybug😑
Exactly What I was thinking and that’s why I don’t like ladybug so much.Not that I hate her!I just think sometimes she is rude and she feels like she doesn’t need cat noir or someone else help during battles. Like when queen bee tried to prove herself that she can a worthy superhero.Ladybug just pushes her away like if she was the problem that they couldn’t have got hawkmoth’s miraculous or mayuras.(I forgot how to spell it)Also in another episode ladybug can magically wear all of the miraculous that no other miraculous holder can do.It’s just like she’s powerful and she can think quick of what to do next in a situation and no other super villain can defeat her.Thats just saying she’s invincible and can never be defeated.I hope they fix her character in the next season and hopefully ladybug can have more flaws and appreciate cat noir better because most of the time she acts like he just did little work and that he’s just distracting her in the battles.
And Adrien gets stupider :(
Arguably all superheroes are a Mary-sue from that logic
that sock you lost in the dryer •20 years ago haha what is that name 😂
that sock you lost in the dryer •20 years ago At this point he may as well be a rock with how dumb they’re making him. He makes Chloe look like Marie Curie by comparison, and we’re talking about a girl who threw herself in front of a train just so that she could prove to her narcissistic mother that she’s worth something!
I don't remember the episode name, but one episode I had a major problem with was when Marinette and Adrien swapped powers for a while and Adrien logically had no idea what he was doing but Marinette had no issue at all adjusting to her new abilities.
Ikr! Like she had no problem to learn how to use the stick or just adapt to the new role. I honestly hated that, it makes it look like that's job is easier and less important than ladybug's which we all know ain't that true.
Oh yeah, that ended up being the worst episode for me in the series because I was so disappointed.
Hannah Ettinger Even tho she ended up causing Reflekdoll to go completely nuts and making everything worse. Love the episode, but LB better reign in her hypocrisy.
@@hannahettinger9088 Oh I'm with u, I hate it when she break cat noir heart and insult him. Don't wanna ship him with her. I feel sorry for him
While I agree with most things said here, I just wanna point out that in Origins Adrien quickly figured out how to use his miraculous, and Marinette had trouble. (Not defending Marinette, I can't stand her😂)
I feel like the kids being smarter than the adults is a trope... Harry Potter does the same ish
Harry potter at least had development
Lucy Heartfilia Marinette has development. You have to think deeper. Harry Potter’s work because you can read it in a book. In movie or animation, it is harder to see.
@@sonpoYT Marinette has awesome development as Ladybug but as marinette not so much
I want that trope to die t h
I feel like that Harry Potter is a half Mary sue cause he's popular and has the tragic back story
There's any fanfiction out there who treats Luka as a real character? I'm done with Astruc's Luka. Actually, I think I'm done with Astruc's whole canonverse.
Ahahah yeah. Shoot, that's the part of this Fandom where my nose is going to be stuck in until the next season comes.
Kitty Kat I’ve started reading it. OMG. You have really good taste in fanfics.
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios 😊 thanks. It's absolutely epic, start to finish. Actually all of MiniMinou fics are but that one's my ultimate fave
That’s because Astruc is an arrogant manchild who doesn’t even know his own show.
@@kittykat896 archiveofourown.org/works/10901358/chapters/24234312
Under Lock and Key
Marinette is the top akuma causing person in the show. Puppeteer, antibug, second timebreaker, Gamer, Volpina, prime Queen, riposte, dark owl, Glaciator, Queen Wasp, puppeteer 2.0, Reflektadoll, indirectly cause Miraclure and created the two most powerful akumas to date. Chat blanc and Miracle Queen. Can forget the accidental Zombuzou one! And two Christmas episodes
That’s 19 akuma! That blows Chloé akumitizing out of the WATER!
Yes! People always say chloe is a terrible person cuz she's akumatized many people but ignore the fact that marinette has akumatized more people and isn't exactly as nice or good person that she is painted to be
bUt ChLoE iS sTiLl aN iRrEdEeMaBlE, hOrRiBlE pErSoN -Thomas Astruc & other Marinette die hards
Actually it is Marinette who causes the most akuma. And if Lila pushed any harder I say we would have seen Marinette punch Lila. And you fell for the oldest trick. Never take what a creators words without a grain of salt
eddog6666 who are you replying too?
@@ItssMelissa they probably deleted their comment
Marinette is a borderline Sue. She does have flaws and makes mistakes, and sometimes makes bad decisions and suffers consequences. However, these consequences don't seem to have long-term effects. She does apologize and feels remorse for her actions, but then come few episodes later and she makes even worse mistakes than before. And her obsession with Adrien is a HUGE flaw that she must overcome. She puts him on a pedestal, obsesses with him most of the time and stalks him. But when you point it out to Thomas, he'll accuse you of 'questioning the mental health of a teenager' 🙄 Yeah, I have every right to do that, Thomas. Do you guys know that the stuff that she did in the name of her 'love' for Adrien can put her in jail for FORTY YEARS? And that's not the worst thing about it. If she wasn't a minor, the charges against her would've been EIGHTY YEARS! But because she's a minor, they were cut in half, and 40 years is still a very long time. Heh, ironically, she once had one of her ridiculous phantasies about her being locked up for stealing Adrien's phone, which I believe is indeed one of the felonies that could put her in jail. And Monseiur Astruc doesn't seem to see that and continues on romanticizing such behavior and painting it acceptable for young children. Oh, and France isn't lenient with things like these. So, yeah. There you have it.
Wait, forty? For stealing three phones or what? I'm pretty sure cat noir have done something worse, like beating up 30 police officers for example...
@@Soundwave1900 Not just stealing phones, but also trying to break into Adrien's house and spying on him. And how does she have his FULL schedule hanging in her room? Only Nathalie and Gabriel have access to it. Also, before trying to break into his house she stalked him all the way to his house on a stolen bike! Not to mention that a fireman helped her to spy on her crush and her love rival. Like, what? 🤨
@@Hanin_Isa Oh, totally forgot about that awful episode... One objection though: is collecting an info you can get passively just by being a friend to someone considered as spying? I mean she deduced the schedule, she might as well do that without writing anything down. Can you be charged for that?
Vague Bleue ...On second thoughts, I see why people don’t mind Chloe. At least she actually KNOWS the guy.
Honestly, season 3 got me to a point that I just plain dislike Adrinette. I can't ship Marinette/Adrien bc I would feel too bad for him - Marinette is way too possessive and she shouldnt be rewarded for it.
Am I the only one who can’t stand marinette for her stalker/creepy like behavior and now ladybug for how she treated chat noir :(
Nah me too I had an odd feeling about her from the start
Nope you're not the only one
Nope ,i also can't stand her
Not the only one, she's a big creep sniffing his bed and also shes kind of a skumbag , I hate her 🙄
You’re not the only one
Marinette never gets consequences and the environment she’s in loves her. Everyone loves her including Adrien who called her their “everyday ladybug”. She does so many awful things and never gets consequences
Chat Blog she apologizes for them in the end.
swear i've seen you somewhere else
@MarinetteI think It would have happened sooner or later, if Ladybug had detransformed seeking master Fu during Love eater, Hawkmoth could have had a clue about Ladybug's identity, because she didn't know he was following her. Let's not forget that the story of ML is about two super-heroes teenagers fighting a merciless and megalomaniac adult who has a faithfull and ressourfull assistant as an ally, and a manipulative sociopathic liar on his side. Even if Marinette/Ladybug hadn't done anything wrong in Love eater, One way or another, Hawkmoth/Gabriel would have concocted a plan that would have allowed him to push Ladybug to make a mistake and finally give him the opportunity to capture the guardian.
Marinette is not perfect, we can't except her to not make mistakes, few of us would do better in her place. It's always like that with characters like Marinette, people only remember her mistakes and never her exploits.
About Chloe's arc being all her fault, I don't agree, Marinette's mistake of not calling Queen Bee one last time may have caused Miracle Queen to rise, but it's also Chloe's fault for continuing to delude herself AFTER Ladybug warned her that she might never be able to reassign her the Bee miraculous. And if Chloe had shown signs of change, that didn't necessarily mean that she had become such a better person than that. Would you have forgotten her foul attitude in Climatika 2 ? Chloé never wanted to be super heroine for the right reasons, unlike Ladybug and Chat Noir who really care about all of Paris, the akuma Love eater himself declared that Chloé mostly loved herself, while when Ladybug confronts the Akuma, he retorts that she loves all of Paris, it's a sacred contrast, don't you think?
"Many awful things and never gets consequences" ? You're kidding right ? I admit that Marinette did some bad things, but "awful" is a big word when we knows characters like Chloé, Lila or Felix, who did things with bad intentions, and who didn't care about hurting people and never regretted it. Marinette ALWAYS regretted the bad things she did, and always apologized and tried to make amend for those bad things, some of her friends call her for her mistakes and the consequences were often akumatized people, that's enough consequences for me, and with her plate of responsabilities and her two bullies Lila and Chloé, Marinette really doesn't deserves more problems. It's not her fault if she repeat some of the same mistakes, it's the show which uses scriptwriting facilities which can lead to an inconsistency of the character. I know that since Marinette is the main character we except her to always being nice and make very few mistakes, well guess what ? She's human, and she has the right to have flaws make mistakes, as long as her bad deeds and her mistakes do not multiply and do not exceed the number of her good deeds, which for now is not the case.
@Marinette you may be right. When we think about the domino effect, losing the bee miraculous indeed led Chloé to become Miracle Queen. But I think that Ladybug losing the bee miraculous was mostly due to clumsiness and hardly because of a bad decision. I mean, Style Queen took her by surprise, and she was a very powerfull akuma, that was hardly Marinette's fault, Thought you can argue that she could have gone looking for the bee miraculous she just lost instead of thinking that her power gave it back to Master Fuu. But those kind of silly mistakes are mostly du to the scenario needs 🤔
And giving the bee miraculous back to Chloé in Malediktor ? It could be argued to have been a bad decision I admit, but it can also be seen as a good decision At the moment because Chloé did a good job to help Ladybug. Also because she was influenced by Adrien words, Marinette chose to give Chloé a chance to fix her mistakes and to do good as a hero. But I think Marinette overestimated Chloe's "goodness", just like Adrien who has trouble seeing Chloé for the mean person she is because he knew her when she didn't already become a wicked girl during their childhood.
I think this is why Chloe's arc disappointed a lot of people, because since Chloé didn't become a better person, letting us see some good side of her and giving us hope that she could become a better person seems like a waste now. But in the end I think the lesson ML tried to teach us with Chloe is that you can never become a true hero without the right reasons and motivations, and it's not by becoming a hero that you can become a good and better person, but by being a good and better person that you can become a hero
I honestly think she is a Mary Sue already, especially after the show ruined Chloe’s redemption arc. Also, unpopular opinion, Marinette is in almost as much wrong as Lila is, up until Lila joins Hawkmoth, but hat doesn’t excuse Marinette. Just think of how creepy she is, and the ways she has selfishly used the miraculous. I personally think that if she could find a clever way around these problems instead of trying to break into Adriens house, she would be much more interesting. Or, you know, trusting others with their opinions
Marinette's "creepy" behaviour might be completely meant to make her funny and/or comedic or something
Hmm the same Lila rhat actively gets akumatized to put people in danger? Mari the girl that has gone out of her way for friends and strangers multiple times is just as bad as Lila? Yea makes a whole lot of sense
@@Zvwry She caused like, 19 akumitizations. Look at the comment above this one -_-
Not exactly, but she is pretty boring. She's nice, friendly, reasonably intelligent, apparently athletic, a competent hero ,really her worst flaw is that she gets a little too into her romantic feelings for Adrien. And that's boring. That's part of the reason why Chloe is more interesting, she's flawed but takes steps or atleast took steps to fix herself before the guy making the show design to backpedal on her character because he hates her.
Chloe is my favorite character
Linda Ixtabalan Juleka’s my personal fave. But Chloe’s in the top 5.
@@linda-6590 you must be sick
@Linda Ixtabalan same!
@@charlie.3757 WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU
Yep. She fits the trope to an absolute T. Gets praised by everyone for doing things literally anyone else can do, is never wrong, belittles those who aren’t “perfect” like her, and is stronger than all the other heroes and is better than them at pretty much everything.
Yea, it was a huge disappointment. Old cartoons makes better episodes than now a days
Even when she is doing something wrong, people around her don't notice her mistake or bad behavior, like that episode when she tried to enter in Adrien's house because Lila was with him and a fireguard help her without questioning anything. I was like "What??"
When the fan fiction is lowkey better than the actual show
With her being stronger than the other character- I personally disagree seeing as though there are character that can time travel- basically destroy the world if prompted and control elements or even create malleable clones/hallucinations. I feel like her only real power is de-acumatising. Even then though she releases them and allows for more to be created
huge disappointment honestly.All the other heroes are so much stronger than her but the creators dumb them down and belittle and weaken them so that they dont outshine Marinette
She's not Mary Sue she is MARI Sue...get it?
One of the best responses here 👌
Mibsu lmao
Marysuenette
@@noonebossesthegarnet2890 I stand corrected 😂🤣 This one now holds top spot 👌
@@noonebossesthegarnet2890 Marisuenette duPAIN cheng
In my opinion she comes close to being a Mary Sue. Ultimately I find that the fault lies with the writing as it seems to favor her a great deal. For on thing why was she the only one trusted to be in contact with the guardian or choose other miraculous users. For example I thought Adrien would be the one to pick Nino or some of the other heroes. you'd think it would be more equal. its fine if ladybug is the leader but give cat noir a chance to shine y know
The part where you talk about Adrian choosing miraculous holder, I remember being disappointed when that wasn't the case. Like can't we see Adrian's perception or Judgment of things, at least when he's the one choosing a new partner?
Well actually he made Ladybug choose Luka to use the snake miraculous, but other than that I'd also hoped for him to make some decisions
@@Marina-vl7hn He kind of had too she was not really acting rationally at the time, though I think he was to traumatised to notice.
She is beyond close to a Mary Sue, give me 20 reasons why.
@@sonpoYT Honestly I can't. The more I thought about it the more accurate the term felt. For example I thought about was the Lila situation but upon my analysis I found it wasn't as much of an obstacle as it initially appeared to be. First Lila's goal of getting with Adrien is already doomed to fail since he's already aware of her lies so no challenge there and as for exposing her to the rest of the school it just the writing waiting for the right moment for the "dramatic" conclusion that hopefully satisfys the audience.
When you wish the PV anime happened instead because the villains seemed like an actual threat.
Mime could literally blow sh*t up. Also, if Queen Wasp were in it imagine how cool she would’ve been.
YESYESEYSEYS and not to mention, the Felix and Marinette ship!
tbh it could’ve been amazing. like i just love the potential dynamic between those two
Honestly
@Karen Marinette has always been Marinette. The only one who got a character change was felix. Bridgette was just a name the fandom came up with to differentiate the two.
i wish it happened so badly
I think another qualifier for "Mary Sue" is the subjective view of whether the character is interesting to watch.
A character can be practically perfect in every way, but still not be called a "Mary Sue" by very many people because they're still an enjoyable character despite their seeming lack of flaws.
For example, the character of 'Pucca' from the Korean cartoon would no doubt fit the mould of "Mary Sue", she can overcome all obstacles, is never framed as wrong for her actions, everyone loves her, she never has to change, etc. But I've never seen anyone call her a "Mary Sue" because she's still fun to watch (or it might be because Pucca is an old cartoon by now).
Oh yeah, I definitely see your point. I was also a fan of Pucca (still am). but as I got older, I started to analyze her traits that made me a little annoyed. Like was she a demigod or something? (Mind you there is an actual theory about that. I forgot where I read it though. Probably another RUclips comments section).
Yeah. I remember Pucca. I would feel bad for Garu whenever she forces a kiss on him even back then. But she was still enjoyable to watch. I mean, the genre of her TV show is slapstick humor. 'Miraculous' is NOT slapstick humor. It's supposed to be a show with a clear end goal.
I sometimes think of Pippa Longstocking as a possible Mary Sue.
I agree, but unlike marinette, Pucca is used(or at least is how i see it) as a parody of the "romance can surpass anything" plot, making it litteral and usually pucca never get to be with Garu, so she falls more in the parody Sue category, where she can do anything, but always fails in her objective
I love pucca. But damn when it comes to her history she's not unique at all lol.
She's definitely a mary sue, even tho she makes so many mistakes none of them have any consequences
Aesthetical Dreams that’s one consequence. How many mistakes has she made?
@@sailorcandy6633 ya and its barely a consequence cuz she was gonna get it either way, probably later in life
@Aesthetical Dreams but Master Fu said her that she would be a gardien before in miracle queen and being gardien only make her more perfect.
@@sorayag.mirandae.1809 exactly
@Aesthetical Dreams That's not a consequence, that's a promotion. She got rewarded for her failure. Now she has more power.
I feel like if the directors of the show made marienette less clusmy and have her act like any normal person around their crush, then the show would be much better. So would the character development. When she's ladybug she acts way more mature and shows more of a less clusmy side, which is better. Other then that the directors basically just need to fix up some unrealistic personality traits
Agreed.
It always bugged me how different she is from Ladybug. It's like she's a different person with the suit on.
@@魏婴-u2w That's kind of the point. She's a different person when she's Ladybug, who she could be if she stood up for herself and had more confidence - both outward and self. Part of her development is becoming that person fully.
It's a show targeted for kids some kids might not understand if she has a crush so they might have gone overboard so it isn't confusing
@@praiseomiragwadia1772 dude kids are dumb not stupid. They aren’t that dumb enough to not be able to tell if a cartoon character has a crush on someone
Marinette is taking what I call the "Bloom route". Initially, she wasn't very Mary-Sueish, but as the seasons went on, she started becoming more and more Mary Sue like. But I'm not sure if that's so much the fault of the character herself than it is that it's the fault of the writers.
This all could be fixed with decent writing. The point of Marinette being Ladybug is because Marinette is supposed to be "unlucky" whereas Ladybug is "good luck". It's just like how Adrien is Chat Noir because he is so "lucky and perfect" whereas the black cat is bad luck. It's all about mirroring or looking at things from an outside perspective. For instance, Adrien seems pretty lucky to be an acclaimed model and from a rich family, as well as being adored in school, right? But under that lucky "facade" is the bad luck of having a terrible family life to the point of being captive in his own home. However, being Chat Noir gives Adrien a chance to put the facade behind him and be himself, even if he's labled for being bad luck.
That doesn't happen with marinette. She's just seen as really kind and helpful in both forms, and that's what makes the connection so mute. If Marinette had an established reputation of being unlucky. For instance, always getting locked out of class, constantly leaving her phone on ring, stumbling through conversations, accidentally insulting people when she ment to compliment them, inherently clumsy, waking up late, getting stuck with the "bad" school lunch choices or the bad seat or bad pencil or the bad anything that always breaks/doesn't work when she needs to use it. Basically, it's a label she has to deal with on her day to day life, she's "Unlucky Mari" and has been since forever because unlucky things always happen to her specifically. This, therein, impacts her social life, and she becomes shy and withdrawn, to the point of even ignoring Adrien when he comes into class and even advising him to stay away from her(look up Marianne from Fire emblem three houses, you'll get what I mean by that). However, as Ladybug, she is suddenly "lucky" and good things happen to her as Ladybug.
The contest would definitely cause a believeable rift between Mari and Ladybug, and Unlucky Mari would have to deal with suddenly being adored and extremely lucky. As the seasons go on, she becomes more accustomed to her other self, and begins opening up, showing her kinder side and being well-liked by the class, to the point of even making good friends(Alya and Nino). Here, we exploring some of her intersts, like fashion designing, and how she has a good eye for art. In addition, Adrien, being "Prince Charming", keeps wanting to persue and beceom friends with Mari because plot. However, as things are looking their best for Mari, her bad luck smacks her in the face again and it ruins everything(maybe something like when Lila faked Marinette pushing her down the stairs), to which she goes through being akumatized after her explusion. Then there's an arc of her questioning if she rally, REALLY deserves to be Ladybug, and it's up to Chat Noir and co to help her realize that she does, indeed, deserve to be Ladybug.
It's kinda sad that Marinette can be like Ladybug in her normal life (and is practically Ladybug) but Adrien is still hiding the Chat Noir part of him. I just want Adrien to actually be able to be himself around other people.
now THIS is what the writers could've done to make Marinette a more lovable and relatable character. Actually show the differences between her as Marinette and as Ladybug. Her clumsiness isn't even a big factor unless the other characters themselves point out how clumsy Marinette is.
@@daradara7493 That's the thing I always hated. They point out she's clumsy, but I don't recall many times she was actually "clumsy". Like if her flaw is gonna be clumsiness, fine, but make it a frequent thin in her day to day life. Like she trips over things, or runs into doors/people, drops things, doesn't pay attention to where she's going, ect.
THANK YOU!
Everyone attributes "being a Mary Sue" to a problem with the character, but it's a problem with the writing and how that character affects the *story!*
Your ideas sound very cool BTW.
@@santinafigueroa4145 I've been tossing around the idea of writing a fanfic, because I always get positive support when I talk about my Ladybug ideas, but I have so many projects right now, lol. Thank you!
I disagree with the stance on not checking the second box:
Even though she has been the cause of several akumatizations, the issue is always resolved by the end of the episode where it has no real effect on the series or other characters for the most part (aside from characters like Lila where it's plot convenient). And while she does usually apologize or make amends in some way, it almost feels as if the situation never happened. And I don't think she really learns from them either. She has shown to give in to her obsessive behavior and make poor decisions just to be close to Adrien. It's the same formula almost every time.
As for the Master Fu example, while it does drive the plot, I think it'll only count if it proves to cause any problems for her. If not, then I basically wouldn't have mattered.
She never made any attempt to apologise or reconcile with Nathael or even really take Chloe to task for nearly ending all like of Earth by bullying Auroea. So no Consequences are not really a thing in this show (as yet).
The closest to some sort of consequence is a mild distrust of alya for siding with Lila that she got over as soon as Alya believed in her when she was getting expelled. No friendship ending consequences, no removal from the hero team for not trusting her - nope nothing.
Another thing: The fact that she doesn't really affect the intelligence of others in her civilian form. Um did he forget about Lila? In this situation everyone is dumbed down to be impervious to Lila's lies except for Adrien and Marinette. I mean they believed that MARINETTE pushed Lila down the stairs. They believed someone they barely knew over someone they all respected and admires. This guys video is really misinformed. For shame 😞
I agree with you, specially with Master Fu. At the end, marinette ended up being the new guardian, thats a kind of promotion and i'm sure she, even when will be struggling a little at the begining, will be the best guardian ever. And about "loosing the team", everybody is replaceable (except marinette), she will have to find new users or give new miraculous to other people. It's not a big problem. But, we will have to wait to see how it unfolds.
Couldn't have explained it better myself
Agree here with the others. Yes she does make mistakes on the regular basis, but she never suffer any long term effects or, god forbit, learns from them:
- she steals multiple phones and never gets punished for it, she just does it again. doesn´t matter if she feels guilty for it, when she fricking does it again.
- she stalks Adrien like its a second job. the let down her girls to sneak into an all boys party but noone gets mad at her. then she try to break into his home, because Lila happens to be with him. she gets caugt by a firefighter and he HELPS HER wtf?
- she teams up with Chloe to get rid of Kagami and while Chloe suffer consequences for being so evil, Marinette not only gets to see the Movie without having a ticket in the first place, she can do it with a VIP ticket next to adrien
- And now Master Fu loosing his memory (essentialy diing in the show) while every other hero gets revealed to HM because of her. yes thats sad, but she gets promoted as the next guardian. no more running of to Master fu first if she needs another miraculous and who needs other heroes, she can use every power at the same time just fine. it is hard to see the negative consequence for her. the consequense is taken by others: Master Fu and all the other Miraculous holders (aside from chat noir, who wasn´t revealed ofc)
the only missing feature for the mary sue checklist here is a tragic backstory and this is the least prominent feature tbh
Some will say "uhh Marinette it's not perfect, she's very clumsy all the time especially when she's with his crush"
Mmm yeahhh that would be her default but *being a clumsy girl makes you look CUTE and adorable!! Which makes you look even MORE PERFECT* :'v
@@karla_thee_potato hehe yeah, I'm talking about clumsy girls in TV shows, anime, series... In real life clumsy girls are annoying xD
@Starlight Potato productions
Odd hearing this from a gachatuber... there is hope for you guys after all.
@@BrrmBrrmm wot
@@2011Malim yes Clumsy-ness can be a actual flaw but in cliché stories it’s treated like they’re qUiRkY
@@2011Malim Yep Xd, but I don’t think it’s a proper flaw if it’s treated like it
i wish she had a tragic back story lol it would make the show so much more interesting
Best comment lmao
Adrien already has a semi-tragic one, I don’t think people would enjoy having both the heroes having problems lol
It's fine that she doesn't have one. She's great without it.
I agree 💯. Also I've never heard of a character who has a tragic backstory needing to be overcome, to be a hallmark Mary Sue quality...
"Well you see, you are actually adopted, and you are the lost grandaughter of another villain..."
I don't see her as a Mary Sue. I see her as a BAD character and protagonist.... And almost Yandere.
How much more interesting the show would be if it was a horror series. Seeing Marinette doing creepy things and Adrien being freaked out.
Yeah I agree. She certainly tows the line of "mary sue," but even if she crossed it that's really not the problem here.
The chick planned out their whole life together like...honey calm down, you can't even tell him how you feel properly.
@@moonawilks8240 lol ikr
@@karla_thee_potato maybe thats from where the twin tails idea came.
Something that bothers me is that the show in general justified Marinette's mistakes and put down other characters like Chloe or Adrien, i'm not saying Chloe is good, she still being a bully, but at least we know why she act like that and pays for her bad behavior, even she tried to be a better person.
Adrien can't go wherever he want because his father controles his life and it's hard for him to socialize.
but the show is like "Chloe will be always mean and Adrien doesn't pay attention to Marinette, he is inconsiderate with her feeling" when she has done as much akumas as Chloe and some other crazy stuff... But she is just a girl in love right???
Mary Sue; Generally defined as a character who’s universe revolves around / changes to accomodate the character, this includes others breaking character to or being created to favour them. Often is highly skilled to an unbalanced level and doesn’t suffer the consequences of their actions.
(I’m going to be honest, I disagree with your judgement of the second one, she doesn’t learn from her small mistakes of causing over half of the akumatisations in season 3 and the two examples you give are massively outweighed, she only suffered the consequences when it was important to the plot but she never learnt otherwise and definitely didn’t suffer the consequences of doing illegal things as Marinette such as breaking into Adrien’s house twice (once she had the help of a fire fighter and the other she got in via way of deception which is still illegal) and I’m not even counting going into Adrien’s house for the gift in Chat Blanc which should also count and I’ll have to respectfully disagree that Chat Blanc had any real consequences, it didn’t change any of her views and only served to show the viewer why they can’t be together since fans demanded it, Marinette herself has never stopped believing that they couldn’t reveal their identities for an unknown reason up until Chat Blanc gave us one. So for me, she’s a massive Mary Sue)
I agree 💯 with all of your comment here. Mari freakin' Sue indeed
That Chat Blanco episode annoys me. It shows that in future circumstances when she makes a mistake, she can just call Bunny and reverse whatever mistakes she made rather than face it like the superhero that she is. Like, I would have loved to see that Chat Blanc episode happen in real time and not in an alternate timeline. I would have loved to see the look on Marinette’s face when it dawns on her that she destroyed Paris, and that she made a terrible mistake, not just have it fixed with a little time travel magic. But then that would probably mean that the show ended on such a tragic note. Eh, Thomas is creative. He’ll figure it out.
Gem Rivers Yeah I agree, I hated the whole episode, it didn’t surprise me or make me feel sad :( for the characters, the use of time travel is stupid (and NOT how logical time travel would work otherwise I’m pretty damn sure they’d get tons of different bunnyx’s coming to the main timeline asking “to save their timeline” that pissed me off so much) there was no lasting effects in the main universe (it would’ve been a prime episode for Marinette to actually find out Chat Noir’s identity) but at this point, I wouldn’t think it’s right to say that Thomas can dig himself out of the hole he’s made if he can’t even give Marinette real flaws, but we can be hopeful
@@ItssMelissa it's a fictional show made for kids I kind of doubt that it needs to be "smart" and/or "logical"
Mona Bohamad2 ahem,, Avatar the Last Airbender, Steven Universe, Gravity Falls, Ben 10, Sofia the First, Young Justice, The Lion Guard, Ninjago, Avengers, Kim Possible.... All covered kids show stuff while being smart. Heck I could also include Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Phineas and Ferb, Adventure Time, Regular Show, Doc McStuffins, The Amazing World of Gumball,
And that’s not including the live action ones or ones I deemed ‘too teenage’ it’s not hard to make a good show for children, not hard to make an over arching plot, not hard to make episodic plots, not hard to make consistent and likeable characters with flaws. They’ve brought romance, death and daddy issues into a kids show, if you wanted to make ‘not smart’ you shouldn’t have brought those themes in to begin with :)
Have a lovely day!
Adrien backstory makes the character mores interesting.
I feel like they were trying to go for a strong female main character which is great, but if you're gonna do that you have to actually make it... good.. Not make her insane lol
Yes, she is a Mary Sue
He only "Flaws" is too be QUIRKY. Besides that she's pretty, talented, strong, doesn't face consequences for her actions, and everybody seen to love her
What I don't get is why very few really make this argument for Adrien. How does he not fit all 4 or at least 3 out of the 4 qualities in this video?
@@kabsageigj8941 Adrien is one of those character for the people in the show as he present like this super model, multi talented, smart, A+ student, rich, all the girls are after him, and obviosly good looking (literally is consider it perfection to many people in the show)
So Adrien does have a terrible backstory, but his whole character is based on him being perfect. To the public, Adrien is the perfect son and model but irl he’s not. He has to act like he is perfect at everything for his father’s image. And he did make some mistakes, like copycat, and a lot more that I didn’t follow up with. While Adrien does make other boys seem lesser than him, it’s cause he’s a model duh. I mean, he’s bound to have fan girls, yet Ladybug completely overshadowed him when he’s Chat.
They sure seemed to love her a lot in the episode Ladybug 🙄
@@kabsageigj8941 Adrien perfect? He (as chat noir) is the jester of the show. He is useless, even clumsy and a lot of times look like fool, like in reflekdoll. he totally depends on ladybug an alone is useless (almost all times).
Thats why i don't consider him a gary stu. He is always capturated.
Also, I just realized something, she actually does have a "dark and troubled past". Remember how it was revealed in Origins how she was bullied by Chloe for several years and always made fun of for being clumsy? That counts. It troubled her throughout most of her school years, bullying is a serious subject that has lead to dark and tragic consequences for some like suicide, and this used to happen a lot to her. She does have a dark and troubled past. It's not as big as losing a parent or witnessing the death of your entire clan but it still counts.
Yeah a dark past doesn't mean having parents dead or other things. Bullying does have negative effects. Maybe she didn't have any suicidal thoughts or attempts from Chloe, because that would be way too dark for the show, and Chloe is just rude and thinks she's above others which makes her unpleasant.
I think no one has a perfect family life. Marinette's parents love her and support her all the way, and that's a thing that doesn't make her a Mary sue. I have loving and caring parents, but they make mistakes and imperfect. That doesn't mean I'm perfect or have a perfect life. My parents had problems before but I still love them and they love me back too.
It does not. It is like saying Luffy has a dark past.
I smell a Naruto fan.
Okno
@@sonpoYT (O.o) I'm sorry what-
I suppose Luffy past isn't "dark" but it definitely isn't light
*It is* mentionned that she was bullied by chloe, but it doesn't really inffluence/change her ; it seems to be her more to make you feel sad fir her than really anything...?
They also implied/made it seems more like if it was just an annoying girl teasing her/being rude to her sometimes then really being that big of a deal ?
Idk how to explain it,but to me it felt like if the authors said that "oh, this character is being abused at home !" but the only thing the parents do is sometime scold their child.....(it's just an example)
*The should should have been mostly about Adrien. His family drama is more interesting then a shy girl that designs for famous people. Adrien definitely deserves more screen time, lmao.*
She's not shy
First comment and I say "Yes. Yes she is". Also, there IS a universal checklist of a Mary-Sue. Look it up. Having a happy backstory could also be used for Mary-Sues, might I add. It's not always a tragic backstory. So, I think it's more 3 out of 4, and that makes her mostly a Mary-Sue. I would also like to add that although there are times she learns lessons, she never suffers dire consequences or witnesses them, except in Chat Blanc and Miracle Queen. She also gets away with being pretty rude to Chat most of the time. Yes, she has room to grow. But I think she does need to be more vulnerable.
She is (Rude) to ChatNoir bc he goes to kiss her and always flirts with her even though he knows it makes her very uncomfortable and she does have dire consequences SHE LITTUARLLY REVEALED ALL THE IDENTITY OF EVERY HEROE, MADE MASTER FU LOSE HIS MEMORY ALMOST KILLED ALL OF PARIS
but yeah totally not mary sue
I completely agree.
I think she is right behind the border. One wrong trait and she becomes one. And well, the easiest way to fix it would be giving cat noir some saved the day moments and some new powers (because why the heck she has four and he has two, literally a blatant mary sue move)...
She didn't really suffer any consequences in the season finale. Fu did as well as the other hero's because of their dentities being exposed to Hawkmoth did.... Her consequences were basically becoming the guardian ie she was PROMOTED as in REWARDED😂. MARY freakin SUE.
@Marinette I don't see any suffering from her negative choices in any of those episodes you provided
On point number three, (characters being uncharacteristically incompetent to make the Sue look better), I feel like Chat Noir is slowly becoming more useless over time, to the point where he comes off as a comic relief sidekick without a brain of his own, while Ladybug can save the day without him just as easily as she can save it with him. Chat Noir is given less time to show his competence as the series goes on; he's twisted into looking like an idiot so that Ladybug comes off looking better in comparison. It's probably my biggest beef with the show, and one of the more damning strikes against the writing for Marinette/Ladybug.
Hawkmoth is also dumbed down to make Ladybug shine more in my opinion, but I mostly can't stand Chat Noir being weakened.
I feel like marinette is wayyy to perfect as a character. She does mistakes but usually the only consecuences she gets its that she feels bad about it and imediatly fixes it by the end or half the episode. Furthermore all her mistakes that actually are shown as bad as the show are usually things that you can´t blame entirely on her. And she also is said repetively that she is the epidome of a good person and thats???not true??? She hates Chloe with a passion and even celebrated when she was going to leave, she sometimes uses her ladybug persona to sabotage other people like lila, she dosen´t trust adrien when he is alone in the house with lila and she trespasses to his house and the show in no way sees this as a bad thing?? Like most of these are understandable but that these flaws exist and the show brushes them over and said that she is the most perfecct person (chrismas episode and the episode when lila almost gets her out of school). It also bothers me because in any other character, mostly in characters like cloe, these actions would put ypu into the bad action/person box imediatly.
I honestly think that Mari is a little bit of a cross between a sue and paragon because I heard one characteristic of a paragon is that they always tend to believe they're doing the right thing. I think this characteristic fits her well. Mari always thinks she's doing the right thing unless she is directly disproven.
Okay, I really like Marinette but there's something that's really been bothering me about her character. I might end up bashing her character.
Marinette is a stalker and needs to face the consequences of it. I will absolutely drop the show if Adrien finds Marinette memorizing his schedules, breaking into his house, his room, his locker, or watching him from afar is romantic. I cannot stand shows that make actions like this okay. Literally the crush Marinette has over Adrien is more of an obsession and makes me cringe because she acts worse than Chloe over this.
In the Bubbler, Marinette is all "I have to save my parents!" but when she sees Adrien and Chloe, she uses her lucky charm for a horrible reason and decides to go give him a note than save the adults. There have been various times she drops everything because of Adrien and was even biased enough to give him a miraculous. I don't even want to talk about the firefighter who helped her break into the mansion and we're never caught.
Their relationship is getting at toxic levels as the seasons pass by and it's irritating. I shipped them at first but Marinette's actions just keep getting worse, especially when jealous.
Okay, I am prepared for any arguments from you people. I just really needed to let this all out. Just don't expect me to respond because I'm not going to bother.
How can we argue with facts lol?
She's a creep who stalks her high school crush and sniffs him like an asylum patient. The way the shows gone Marinette should check into Arkham.
In my opinion there are levels of mary sues. Marinette is a mary sue. There are some characters tha rank higher yes, but she's still a mary sue.
I think she checks the second point: her mistakes are not serious, and the ones that look like serious ends up being something good. When somebody is akumatized by her or anyone, nothing serious happens, she saves the day and everything goes back to the original state.
About master fu, well, he wasn't a very good example of "useful" mentor: lost two miraculous and damaged one; destroyed a temple; and couldn't solve the riddle for the special skills after trying for a long time, marinette solved it in 10 secs. After hawk moth got rid of him, marinette became the new guardian, she got a promotion, maybe she will be stressed and have a hard time at the begining being the new guardian, but at the end she will be surely the best guardian ever. About loosing her "team"; well, everybody there is replaceable, she can find new miraculous users among her firends, even more, there are more miraculous that haven't been used. Lets be honest, Fu wasn't very useful what did he do well? he used to showed up to let her choose a miraculous. We never saw him training them or something.
And you missed other abilities she has: she is an excellent gamer, won a tournament and beated easily (really easily) the gamer boy in her school who was practicing one year for that tournament. She is excellent designer, the anna wintour of her world was about to take her to new york to design there, a famous rockstar wanted her to design the cover os his new album. Shes a good baker, this one is justified, but it's still another thing she does great.
She wouldn't be the ultimate mary sue, but she's definitely one of them.
Master Fu as a mentor had such promise to me, but there’s hardly any screen time devoted to him and Marionette just discussing anything or training. The times we do see them conversing is when there’s an Akuma problem or set up to an Akuma problem. It makes sense, I know, but it’s still kinda annoying that the writers don’t use those moments as opportunities to expand on the lore and SHOW how Marionette is getting stronger/more knowledgable. When he’s shown, expect a new power/secret to beat the villain and maybe some crumbs of backstory.
I also find it annoying how Adrien/Cat Noir is purposefully excluded from learning about the Miraculous backstories. Fine, the show doesn’t want the two to know each others identities, but come on?! Why does Marionette/LB get special time with a Guardian, when A/CN (the legit other half of the freakin’ main Miraculous holders!) has to figure it out on his own and be left in the dark?! It really keeps them from being a better team since it creates a wall of secrets and mistrust between them, while also limiting their potential to grow stronger together. Adrien is very active in his civilian life, yes, but there was potential to have CN become a stronger fighter and maybe dwell more into just how powerful his destruction can be. In Chat Blanc he literally destroyed part of the word and some of the moon! And you got that tied to the body of a teenage boy with various issues and pressures. Fu should be keeping this in mind and making sure the holder of the chaos/destruction Miraculous understands just how important it is for them to keep a steady head.
When Fu was shown going to Adrien at the end of ‘Syren’ at M/LB’s request, I was totally excited for it. Teaching both in secret, right under Hawk Moth’s nose, and maybe seeing more of Plagg’s personality beyond “loves cheese and causing mischief.” Alas, we’re never shown him seeing Adrien again beyond that stupid house party episode, Adrien never mentions anything to Plagg about learning something new, and CN is still implied to be left in the dark.
Master Fu, you have how many years of Guardian experience and you can’t see how much you’re holding back the duo cause you rather follow M/LB’s advice than your own? Honestly, this show hates the obvious and wants to keep Marionette as number 1 while screwing over the other characters.
Ahh, the "clumsy is her weakness" trope. Every Mary Sue OC ever, I swear.
Marinette is inspired by Usagi (sailor moon) that's why the have made her clumsy
Marinette is lowkey a little insane for a 14 year old though, like imagine breaking into your crushes house just because some other girl is with him even though he got it under control, she’s lowkey obsessing over adrien now
And seemed to have stopped doing so at some point during season 3
Mona Bohamad2 she stopped? no no no i think her it got worse in season three, in fact, season 3 was horrendous LOL the second hand embarrassment though
@@kirisuh Especially in season 3 puppeteer 2, the second embarrassment 😖I can't
@@tapiwankhata3111 ehh update season 4 in my opinion is defo better for Mari characters seeing as we are near the end well her character is a tad bit better than season 3 oh god season 3 absolutely sucked balls, but anyway in s4 we actually get some good episodes (some still are bad but hey it is mlb) anyway as people have been asking for ages for her to have consequences we actually do in part 1 of the season 4 finale her friends basically call her out for trying to stop Adrien from leaving (which hysterically was actually a good choice as he didn’t want to but hey) and Adrien actually tells her his feelings and instead of being all obsessed and flustered she actually does something we thought was impossible, she actually listened like a good friend wow (and also we get a scene for shippers i guess) so yeah thats great i guess but mostly just normal (weird) Mari so i guess for once we actually get answered and for the second or third time i, actually like Mari (the other time being when she breaks down in gang of secrets and of course the consequences)
4. Tragic Backstory That Makes Mary-Sue Look Impressive
"Thankfully, Marinette doesn't have that *at all"*
Exactly. That's a problem. Her life is way too *perfect.*
She has a huge bedroom, her own frickin balcony, two loving parents, almost every classmate is her friend, knows tons of famous people in Paris, many guys have/had a crush on her, she's super talented in her passion, out of everyone, she was chosen to be Ladybug pretty much instantly, her major flaw is being cLuMsY, etc.
she's not just clumsy though, she's also got a major anxiety disorder which is why she overthinks things a lot. She actually makes mistakes as Ladybug and Marinette and knows she's now flawless, but fans and people in the show thinks she's perfect because she hasn't been sad or upset about anything in her life. She's openly optimistic. Which is why I'm excited for her in season 4 because she actually might get character depth now!
@@quietopinion9637 hear hear!
I feel like the main thing that makes me notice she is a mary sue is that if she wasnt in 1 episode, the whole show would collapse. Nobody is competent like her, they all need her. I feel like they need to start thinking the show from diferent perspectives.
I agree with almost all of these I hope in season 4 will sorta fix it in some way
It won’t. In the Shanghai special she’s following Adrien across the continent. And in season 4 she’ll try to confess to Adrien even tho he’s dating Kagami.
Sorry, but she's been a MS for three full seasons, there's no way come back from that this late in the game without suddenly breaking the established dynamics in a way that won't feel natural. The only way to fix it is to nuke her from orbit and start over from scratch.
@@aprilvaiarella435 I disagree
@@monabohamad2242 Okay, so what do you propose as a viable solution? How can they fix it going forward without retconning half of the previously established canon? I don't mind that you disagree, but I am curious how you feel it should be handled.
Keep in mind, at this point, suddenly having CN be competent or randomly making LB not the best will be jarring to the audience, since he's been incompetent and she has been overly capable for 3 seasons. You also need to do it in a way that will feel organic and won't rely on tearing down or demeaning ladybug. The point is to make her more likable to the audience and to establish CN as a proper hero in his own right, not revenge writing.
The reason I say it should reboot is because at this point changing the character dynamics is like suddenly changing the style of a building half through construction. It doesn't have the right foundation or framework to support the change.
@@aprilvaiarella435 its never too late to fix stuff, they can fix it but they need a good thing to fix it, like why marinette is acting like this if the writers come up with an idea and make an episode of marinette saying why or idk and she changes to a good person and has more character development and adrien/CN will get more screen time the show can be saved, and everything can end up good, its not too late and i dont want them to start over it will take years.
I feel like marinette had so much potential, at the start of the show she’s shown as a girl who loves fashion and loves to play video games. but as the show went on it’s only about how much she loves adrien and that’s it. Like when she went to Shanghai , she could have gone for fashion reasons and to get inspiration as well as have a nice vacation. But instead, the writers make it about marinettes love for adrien. It’s like they replaced her hobbies and personality completely, from the beginning if you had to describe her it would be “a kind person, an expert fashion designer, and a clumsy but loveable girl” but now it’s just “that one girl who likes adrien”
I'd actually rlly love to see her in a shopping spree or smth and put on different clothes; that would be fun! they could make a whole movie out of that for us gurlz 😗
In conclusion: Marinette is not a Mary-sue she’s just annoying
I think what makes her a strong contender for the Mary Sue title is Tikki. As lb, they are one and the same and she slowly rubs off on Mari throughout the show, giving confidence and knowledge. If anyone, Tikki should be the Mary Sue, being the arguably wisest character and providing the right tool to use at the right time.
Kayleigh G But Tikki is a literal god and has been around for thousands of years. It makes sense for her to smart and wise and perfect. Mari, on the other hand, is only a teen.
Starlight Potato productions What are you talking about? The comment you replied to was canonically accurate, how is it false??
Queen Luna Freed its a joke
Dang.
Tikki isn't a human being so the Mary Sue criterias dont really apply to her
The biggest thing that holds the show back is the fact that they decided to make it so ONLY Ladybug can cleanse the akumas. This creates a situation where nothing bad can ever happen to her because otherwise it's an automatic lose. They had a single chance to flip the script in the episode Reflekdoll where they swap miraculous with each other and for once Adrien could be the star and perhaps something bad could happen to Marinette. But no. Instead, they decided to make Adrien the butt of the joke once again and prop Marinette up even higher by making him struggle to use the powers and having Marinette excel easily at using Chat's, while teasing about his being the "easy job" and him admitting that it's difficult to do hers. It's so frustrating that every other character plays second fiddle to her, even Chat Noir when he's supposed to be her equal as Thomas even said himself. Perhaps he doesn't realize how much they're downplaying and belittling Chat's character. Beyond this, it's also frustrating how successful she is. I get that they want to create a character that's empowering and inspiring to little girls - but couldn't they do that through multiple characters rather than just a single one? There are a ton of other characters, females and males, that could have had the talents Marinette has, spread across them all. She's good at everything, loved by everyone (except by unlikable characters) and this is despite her making a lot of mistakes and hurting other people's feelings. You'd think if that's the case then people would be less inclined to love her as much as they do. They don't need to hate her but at least make some characters a bit indifferent to her or mildly dislike her. But that's just my take on it. Like everyone else, I enjoy the show but there are definitely some flaws which I wish would be addressed.
Right?! Not to mention they made all the other heroes absolutely WORTHLESS to make her look good! They nerfed Venom to the point where instead of a showstopper it’s more of a minor inconvenience, Mirage is only limited to one illusion (which btw is bad if your primary power is illusion). Cataclysm? Distraction. Voyage? Plot device. Oh but of course the only POWERFUL ability goes to Mr. Freaking Perfect Luka (!) WTF?! Nope. You know what? I’m siding with Hawk Moth.
I know right! And before anyone says anything about it, Chat also struggled using his miraculous at first. It just wasn't shown on screen. As we know, he started earlier since he didn't listen to Plagg. So, if anyone tries using that as an argument against you, just know that it doesn't make sense.
I love Marinette. She's a victim of bad writing. I really hate what's happened to Miraculous since season 1.
bc of how perfect marinette and her life is, it makes me feel bad and insecure abt myself. like damn imagine having your parents, your classmates, your friends and literally everyone AND THEIR DAMN MOM in paris love u?????? that's not how teenagers live?????
The show makes you insecure-
It may sound silly but I relate to that sentiment especially when I was younger. Eventually I realized it was more of a me problem than a problem with the show. But I can still acknowledge that Marinette does have an unrealistically fortunate life.
1.Traditionally Beautiful: Yes
2.Perfect Hair: Yes I think
3 gets the guy in the end: She's GOING to get Adrien in the end (Even tho its stupid and the relationship is forced)
@t: Yes
5.Has Super abilities: Yes
6.Can Fly: No
7.Has Telepathy: No
8.Saves The World: Yes (You could argue that she only saves but in the chat blanc episode Adrien could have ended the world so)
9.Has Strange Name: No
10 Saves Puppies Or Kitties : In episodes we sometimes see LB And CN saving a cat and doing small jobs so I would assume yes.
11.Has Heterochromia ( two different colored eyes ): No
12 Exotic Hair Compared to other characters.: No
@t: No
14.Friends that just happen to support her (Even if she did nothing to give them to): Yes
15.Hidden Powers: Yes
And the that every mary sue has to have is...
Are
They
16 Clumsy?:
Yes
Sorry to say this but Marinette is my least favorite character.
Right? and Adrien is 2nd place for me lol..
Not sorry to say this I hate her lmao
I will unrepentantly shout it from the rooftops because I'm not, in slightest bit, sorry. I've been shouting it since season one.
I hate Marinette. She is the reason I stopped watching the show.
No need to apologize, i also dont like her, my favorite character is Alix
I always thought she was a bit full of herself and her jealousy is wayyyy out of hand. If Lila didn’t like adrien then marinette would have been friends with her but her jealousy didn’t let her. And Jesus Christ the amount of times she’s got people akumatised and then she gets mad at Chloé for doing the same thing...hypocrisy much?
Okay but the scene that proved to be that she’s most definitely a Mary Sue is in Kwami Buster when she legit uses every miraculous in the box and Master Fu warns her of how dangerous that is, but all that happened was her falling over and coughing for two seconds. Then, she was perfectly fine the rest of the episode. Riddle me that!!
Well she has trained with him & is naturally athletic thanks to her working at the bakery. The show just does awful job of showing and not telling. Adrien is given more depth, compared to Marinette who her only character trait is loving Adrien. She's treated as a joke whereas Adrien gets to be the smart one which is so sexist honestly. Adrien is root cause as to why she hasn't developed.
I heard a simple definition of Mary Sue from Literature Devil. When the rules of a world bend around to make the protagonist look better, then that character is a Mary Sue.
The problem with Marinette is that her non Mary-Sue qualities just feed into the feeling that she’s a Mary-Sue.
For example, her being super creepy in puppet master. Any normal person would be really creeped out by that and probably try to avoid her in the future but Adrien of course believes her bs lies because “she is a good person and totally not creepy”
Even when she makes mistakes everything works together to fix it without her even learning a lesson half the time.
In that episode you’d think she’d realise “hey, maybe I’m a creep” but no she continues to fantasies about being with Adrien even after he mentions likening another girl!
Eh well i guess after a yr later your still technically right but we could argue that she also has some actual non Mary-Sue traits that don’t link to her being one like her breakdowns and stress as guardian which is still unbelievable that shes like what 14-15 and damm i don’t know why but its so satisfying seeing her breakdown (I’m scared mentally for myself) thats my take anyway a yr later you prob already know or have left this fandom so idk
Someone else in the comments covered all the things I wanted to say but I will say my part .
I dont like marrinate because I think shes a Mary sue its mlre that she too many good things happening to her at her age . being a great gamer,designer,artist ,class rep,baker,having good grades,is friends with a popular guitar player and made designs for the fashion guru of Paris andhaving only two people that dont like her.
I'm sorry everyone but that's way too much stuff for a teen to do if she was older that be semi ok.But a teen? Heck no I also don't like that there's too many people that like marinette like there's barely anyone that doesn't like being around her not hate just they domt like being around her . I also think that half the stuff shes good at like gamer and artist part should be null and void cause even good designer don't need to be great artist
My last two point can be summed up to personal preference.
Shes too perfect when it comes to her social life cause she has an answer to everything by the end of the episode after being lady bug which wouod be fine and all if we had a time to understand why she gets the answer outside her being lady bug amd thats the issue she basically ladybug without the mask on and thats boring I would rather have her stay clumsy and make mistakes ratger than being everyone problem solver the second she defeats the akuma ots not entertaining cause its boring you can predict this very easy .
My last point is her personality. She strikes me as a lady who would do extreme things to make sure adrien stays with her and season 3 met my fears she went from potential loveble standard hero to a creepy stalker that gets away with her and makes Chloe amd Lila look tame(that last part is extreme but you get my point).
Even if marinate isn't a Mary sue the way the show is writhing her its very easy to call her one cause we dont get to see more of her flaws or that she is not liked by mlre than 3 people in the show .
I don’t view her as a Mary Sue, but I agree when he says the show should depend on back characters (ESPECIALLY Kitten Noir) more. In all honesty she does kinda make everyone seem like trash (except Chat he could never be trash, he’s too hot)
right he is too cute
LMAOOO
Kitten Noir! That sounds adorable!
lmao i agree noir is too hot
This has nothing to do with the video but here I go:
*Cat Noir is Fricking hot*
y e s
He is just 14 year old
Catdrien is best Adrien lol
This is why I hate this fandom...
Lena Vie en Rose Mino it’s part of every fandom? don’t like it, leave. don’t have anything good to say? don’t say it.
I wish they’d let her friends contribute working ideas to defeating villains. Like Chat Noir. That way the show could give the lesson that friends are important too.
I hate that she is the only one who can get rid off an Akuma. Like seriously, how are the other herpoes supposed to be heroes?
Also, the scene where she cries in front of Luka is, considering all the things she does (draw, design, bake, play video games, study to get good grades, have a good social life, enough sleep, save Paris all the time and stalk Adrien brrr), one of the most realistic ones. I wonder how she gets full sleep every night.
Apparently, and I'm not sure if this is true, but one of the power ups that master fu made for chat noir and ladybug, is that if marinette were to get akumatized, there is a power up that chat can capture the akuma or he can cataclysm it as shown in chat blanc
I'm not sure if this is true I have just heard of this theory and I do think it's a bit unfair how ladybug can only capture it without using her one-time power
For the next season, I hope Marinette suffers from burnout and questions being ladybug. I mean common, look at what all she has done and tell me why she shouldn't be suffering from some sort of burnout? I hope she stops being so creepy with Adrien thanks to kagami, and I hope she starts building something with chat. I feel like she treats chat like this disposable sidekick completely disregarding his feelings. He dosent feel like a friend. I hope she freaking becomes normal because it's getting harder to watch if she's just being this stalkery perfect teenager. Like aah-
Maybe, when listing her good qualities she should be compared to other characters. Adrien is a model, he plays piano, does fencing, speaks Chinese and is a nice person. Alya has a blog that becomes quite famous during the seasons, she is smart, she can handle troublesome kids, she is also nice, she is a good dancer and does parkour or something with Nino in one episode. Nino is a DJ who gets to work at Gabriel Agreste's fashion show, that's impressive, and yes, he is nice too. Marinette's friends have a band that also does quite well. Many of the characters do quite unusual things and are nicer to each others than average teens. Marinette's good qualities and successes do not stand out that much from the good qualities and successes of other characters.
I have to agree with you, this comment actually has substance. While some people are saying Marinette is not relatable at all because she has hobbies, good grades, a passion, and is a superhero, she actually is just as relatable as her friends. Obviously some people aren't going to see themselves in her because they don't have the same interest or are the opposite of her personality, but that doesn't mean people like her don't exist in the real world (minus the super hero because that doesn't exist on Earth). For some people she might seem too perfect but she actually has many flaws and is actually a decent teen nothing above average in terms of being kind, and creative enough to get as much things done. (also if you're one of the many unlucky souls out there that has done IB then you know you have to become more than Marinette to survive that thing)
This why I don't like the term "mary-sue" that much because it implies that the problem with a character is how perfect they are when that's not actually what the problem is with "mary-sue" characters. It's a little more complicated than that and harder to point out. I think other people were saying it correctly when they described it as the story and characters bending to make the "mary-sue" character look better. For example, Adrien is good at a lot of things but is shown to be a bad Ladybug in order to make Marinette look better as Chat Noir.
I'd rather not argue over whether or not a character is perfect because I think those type of characters can be interesting. In my opinion, Marinette just isn't interesting and doesn't appeal to me as a main character.
I wish they made chat noir more important, they are a team and talk about needing to work together but she really doesn’t need him in battle. Poor chat noir is supposed to be just as powerful as her, but he isn’t.
Honestly Astruc keeps screwing over Chat Noir. He's supposed to be the perfect balance to ladybug, succeeding where she fails, etc., but he keeps getting put off and pushed to the sidelines. Chat Blanc showed us that he has the power to destroy the entire universe, so why not use it? Having him be more successful than ladybug would be a refreshing change if pace, because we've seen ego go to his head before and it would change up their dynamic.
The thing with Marinette is for her wrong actions she doesn’t get disciplined- and she sometimes abuses her power as LB- and is overall creepy- in the end she can basically get away with anything if she tried-
I think that she definitely has characteristics of being a Mary Sue and the way to begin changing that I think would definitely for her to be akumatised. There have been hints that she will be akumatised and she almost was a couple of times. It would definitely show her vulnerability and her need to actually rely on the other characters. Though this may take awhile.
Why would she be akumatized when it was LITERALLY said in the show that it'd be GAME OVER?
She totally fits 2 second point, she is always right, there's this episode where screws things because she wasn't expecting a client to get a cake, and because of time travel shenanigans, there were no consequences for her. All the guys that get possessed are just freed at the end of the episode and has no consequence at all after that, and from the 2 "big" examples you gave, one was mostly so that she could shine even more, she is now the guardian "and the best guardian ever" I'm sure because... this show. And the other is irrelevant, even filler, because it doesn't affect at all, she was against reveling identities, anyway. The fourth one I've never even heard about before, the definition of a Mary Sue is "An essentially perfect character superior to everyone else that, that can do everything by herself, she is superior to everybody in everything without any training, always righteous, and when they make something wrong, it solves itself and make everybody else look inferior by comparation while only having small flows that can be actually assets like being too good or caring to much, or being adorably clumsy".
Even Marinette's name kinda sounds like Mary Sue.
GreaterBarbara Listen to how Chloé says it and you'll be right. 🤣
Marysuenette
The show hates chat noir but the fandom loves chat like chat need his spot light 😿
I think that she's a half Mary sue like how can she keep her calm and lose her anger very quickly
and she 's always scoring good grades she's all most good at everything she does
She always gets the spot light while catnoir is no where to be seen in the camera but what does she give catnoir rejections and excuses not to be with him and gets annoyed when he does not fo things right and when CN is sad she's like "catnoir don't get all pouty on me" but catnoir gives her hope,support and love even when she does not come to his
Invitation dates CN bares it anyway.
I JUST HOPE SEASON FOUR AND FIVE ARE BETTER
The time where Marinette broke down in front of Luka was a very emotional moment that showed that she's not just a perfect statue. I hope they expand on that idea and like you said show her vulnerabilities a bit more. And I hope Kagami and Luka appear more in Season 4 to help Marinette and Adrien grow on their own and discover their honest feelings
Chat Noir suffers from Ladybug´s overpower
u n k n ღ w n so true
So true.
She is most definitely not a Mary Sue but the show treats her like one. By the show, I mean the characters and the environment she is in are always supporting her regardless of her bad actions and her stalker ways. She is bad very little times for comedy but then they make her so unbelievable skillful out of no where and sometimes it makes Adrien/Chat look horrible for her sake.
People dont realize but her crush on adrian doesnt seem creepy because shes the main character. But it's so weird. Shes literally like a fangirl at times.
Thank god the movie kinda in a way fixed her a bit considering that while she was in NY, paris was being destroyed and she felt helpless because she couldn't do anything and yeah i get that Adrien needs more attention considering his back story but remember this show was mainly meant for young girls so it's no surprise that ladybug just happens to be the main focus of the show but the show is barely hitting the tip of the iceberg so I'm sure Adrien is going to get a lot of attention as the show progresses, it's a long shot but I'm sure Thomas will have something in store for us soon
I think Astruc started believing that because Marinette was the protagonist, everything important had to happen to her. Unfortunately, that causes a huge imbalance in character development (between Marinette/Adrien and Ladybug/Cat Noir). While she gains confidence as both a civilian and superheroine, Adrien remains flat and one-dimensional (because the important things are not happening to him, and Astruc won't let him grow the same way). In that case, I think it would have been better not to have Cat Noir at all, or at least for us to not know his civilian identity. (Then he truly would be viewed as just a comic-relief sidekick, as they seem so keen to make him now.) But we do, and we care about Adrien, too. After all, the show began with the premise that the ladybug and black cat miraculous were equal but opposite. Different powers, but both essential. It was supposed to be a partnership - a team. I think Astruc went too far with Marinette in the last season in a clear attempt to highlight her as the main (and maybe his favorite?) character, and it backfired. She was so nasty, and it made me lose my respect for her.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
You forgot a big one. Marinette hates liying. In Zombuzou she was already to teach Chloé a lesson. And in chameleon Marinette was clearly struggling to not strike Lila. She even balls her fist in both confrontations. Even Lila thought Marinette was going to punch her. That’s enough to knock common Mary Sue to a nope.
And she made several BIG mistakes that a MARY SUE would never ever make mistakes.
1 forgetting to transform back to Marinette and leading the two BIGS BADS to all the Miraculous. 2 not even acknowledging Chloé who was in a desperate state to save her family. At that moment Chloé was a shell a Husk. In that moment you could technically say Chloé was dead. And by ladybug/Marinette. And Mary Sues don’t do that. And Miracle Queen was a powerful akuma. And Mary Sues won’t cause akumas. In fact Marinette is up there with Chloé and Lila in causing akumas. Check the next comment for akumas.
Marisue is most definitely a Mary sue. Since this words has so much definitions,I'm going to say them all : A Mary sue is loved by everyone since day 1,is perfect,beautiful,kind,has no problem handling multiple things at once. "Buuut she couldn't handle guardianship in S4,and she has flaws too." Is that so ? Wait till you see the other definition. A Mary sue makes the entire plot bend just to make her seem in the spotlight. If you watched the S5 finale,you'll understand. That's Marinette. She's a Mary sue. And guess what ? This description also awfully reminds me Zoe. Because shes also a mary sue herself.
thomas never listens to criticism or advice, when you give the tiniest bit of ideas or criticism he'll block you. I find that really annoying about him
Because fans harass him constantly and send death threats, so it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't want to listen to them. I wish the fans were more patient with him and respect that its his show and so he can do whatever the hell he wants with it. The MLB fandom are worse than him tbh
Marinette is so perfect she often needs a special episod to show flaws lmao
the biggest may sue move was when she put on 72802782 miracoulouses at the same time and the whole episode where she does that. and master du said like “shes so great noone did this before shes so strong shes so smart and shell be a great keeper”
Well maybe because she is? I loved that about her!
I think she's just really LUCKY lol.
I feel the major indicator of a Mary Sue is that the universe 'bends' around that character rather than them having tragic backstories or always making the right decisions. Take Ray from Star wars: Magically uses the force to levels beyond trained masters after hearing about it. Able to pilot spaceships better than expert pilots. Loved by characters who just met her. Still got captured multiple times. The real thing about Mary Sues is that they don't have to deal with the consequences, or are rewarded instead of punished for their mistakes. Ray gets captured? Oh look she got new powers or made the bad guy fall in love with her. Ladybug lead hawkmoth to the miraculous box? Oh look, now she is the new guardian with ALL the miraculous. Ladybug's mistakes have consequences, but she is not the one who suffers them in reality. When Hawkmoth got the miraculous box, she didn't suffer a consequence, Fu did. She was rewarded with ownership of the box. "But she lost he mentor" Fu was barely a mentor, he didn't train them in anything, he gave them to power up potions(which Marinette had to complete for him), and rented the miraculous to her. But the sacrifice of his memory wasn't her consequence, as he gets to retire with the one he loves, and clearly retains the feeling of liking Marinette, just like Cat Noir literally killing himself multiple times for her is not HER consequence, she just saves the day and brings him back and everything returns to status quo. Whatever Marinette does something that is clearly wrong, it is always made, by plot or someone else's sacrifice, something that ultimately she suffers nothing for doing. The worst she gets for things SHE does wrong is getting a stern talking-to by Tikki. It isn't that everyone just loves Marinette, it is that the universe loves her and goes out of the way to make sure she never has to suffer any lasting damage for what she does. She has literally committed crimes in her creepy stalking of Adrian, and it's always handwaved because the universe loves her.
There's actually a fanfiction (I forgot the title) where Chloe is the main character, she has many flaws and a tragic back story of not having enough parental love, but over time, she managed to learn humility along the way, gave up her Miraculous to make sure Sabrina and her parents are safe through secrecy and indirectly helps the main and supporting Miraculous holding characters in her own Chloe way
She is still bratty but she uses this against people who are hostile to the main protagonist which is Lady Bug and Chat Noir
People countlessly refer to her as someone who always has the right idea at the right time and someone who always fixes everything. Ladybug also once took on rogercop, lady wifi, evillustrator, AND CHAT NOIR all at the SAME TIME. That made me mad
It's almost to the point of not needing Chat Noir. Like oh he can cheer her up every now and then but she can also handle everything on her own.
Exactly
Marinette: Do no sport, is "average", she only design... she is super loved by everyone in her school and as a superheroine, is hella agile, has met famous people.
Adrien: DO SPORT, has a piano class, is a model, he has the FRIGGIN villain in his FRIGGIN house, feels free as a superhero, has flaws, is nicer, he is friend of the "bad girl" of the school, has a conflict with his father, her mother could be DEAD (read that again) his father always work (and he is the bad guy) and has the power of destroy things... yet is treated as usless, is always beat by a villain, and is not as agile as Ladybug.
I insist, if Adrien was the main characther, i could have not stop watching the series.
I don't like when protagonists are given skills in order to make them more likable. I don't think they do this much with Marinette, but often her talent is a plot device to get her into some situation. For example she was suddenly good at video games (I don't remember much foreshadowing of this) just so she and Adrien could be in the video game competition.
I don't like when supporting characters don't get to shine because they the main character to get all the glory every time. I think the show has done this a few times but not to the point that it really bothers me. I think a lot of Anime have this problem.
A lot of people want a character that can grow. When it comes to Marinette it doesn't seem like she has much room to grow. Has she ever been akumatized?
Almost, three times
1) Chameleon
2) Ladybug
3) Chat Blanc
But of course we can't have the only character that can purify an akuma be akumatize and in Chameleon Tikki cheer her up until she manage to get away from the akuma, the other two were practically saved in the last minute by other reasons that would've happened if not for said reasons.
amirul amani Even though it’s was shown Chat can Cataclysm akumas. So there’s no reason she CAN’T be akumatised.
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios and I almost thought that Marinette herself LITERALLY said it'd be GAME OVER or something either that or you're probably we might have to wait and see I guess
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios wouldn't he have to use 2 cataclysms, which he currently can't since he's still young and not strong enough to remain transformed after using his power. I'm saying this because he would have to break Mari's miraculous to release the akuma since that's where the akumas usually seem to aim when she nearly gets akumatized. And to do so he would have to cataclysm her earnings, which then means that he will de-transform into Adrien and if he tries to re-transform the akuma will have left and if not Mari might discover his identity. I don't think it's going to happen soon since it wouldn't match the pace of the series, maybe when they make the reveal because they both would be more aware of fact that they have to keep each other safe or else Paris is doomed, and also because Mari needs time to get used to being the new Miraculous box keeper, so if her miraculous was to be broken when releasing the akuma she would know how to repair it quickly. This also gives them time to learn how to use their special power more than one time before their de-transformation
Starlight Potato productions Yeah. Or maybe has a paralysing fear of letting everyone in Paris down. Since all the pressure’s on her?
I had no idea what a Mary-Sue was until this video. Very nice and clear about what a Mary-Sue is and how much of it fits with Marinette.
Just like her nickname, Mari, she is halfway there.
I hope she doesn't end up a cliché
In season 3 Marinette popularity is going down hill fast. It because of Lie-la. Lie-la too Alya from her. I think that actually knocks indicator #1 off. By the end of season 3 she was being bullied more then whatever Chloé did.
Honestly I liked Marinette but I really couldn't relate to how she acted around Adrien. Like yeah, sure, there are totally girls out there who are creepily boy obsessed, but honestly as a teen girl myself it feels so... I dont know... off. It was annoying to see almost everything she was doing come back to Adrien and her crush, but that's to veexoected from a romance plot I guess ahaha
Yes I like her but I hate how she’s so obsessive over him :/
Personally feel like this has aged so well, especially the end point with the current plot points
i like marinette but i feel like the writers don't do much with her-- or perhaps, because of how the episodes are structured, it really feel like nothing is happening to her or the people around her. with anything she does wrong immediately gets resolved besides a handful of things, and never brought up again. i believe the writers are trying to write a character that young girls can aspire to be like, which is great, but also... a little dose of reality is nice lol-- especially for those of us that are older and don't care about seeing idolized people. with that said, i think me liking marienette is because of the fanfics that i read, which ground her out more than the actual show does. most of the time when i'm watching the show, i sorta just skip through it and still get the basic ideas-> marinette or someone makes akumatized victim feel bad, akumatized victim goes rampant, ladybug takes them out, situation is resolved, everyone moves on like it never happens. :<
i normally don't like shows with this sort of episodic structure, i'm more of an overall plot type of gal, but now i'm 3 seasons in ;;
I think she’s half half Mary Sue she learns from chat noir in gamer 2.0 not to rush into things and have fun then uses that at the end of the ep she takes people advice making her seem perfect but in turn it’s mostly tiki and others
.. Then next episode we see her forgetting those lessons.
r o s e g o l d what even was the next episode? The order is completely messed up. There’s no real timeline
@@sailorcandy6633 I meant in each episode in general. There's no continuity, except for s1
This made me realize that Adrian is also a Mary Sue! Even more so than Marinette, bc despite his tragic backstory he’s a nice, well adjusted teenager with a good moral code and selfless attitude, his only drawback being he’s a tad oblivious.
I really want Chat Noir to save the day just ONCE, like LB can leave Paris for a day or she can be in trouble and it's up to hik to save her and the town (and the person being akumatized)