Harley Softails and Evolution Engines Aren't Exactly all Harley
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- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2024
- The Harley-Davidson Softail and Evolution engine are two of the most iconic products that have ever rolled out of Harley-Davidson's factory. Pure Harley-Davidson through and through, just like the Vrod. Wait, hold on, what if I told you the Softail frame and the Evolution engine weren't completely Harley-Davidson? The Evo was actually designed by a guy that used to design successful engines for Harley-Davidson's competition and the Softail frame.... Harley-Davidson didn't design it!
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Love my 94 Softail Custom. 140,000+ miles and never tore the engine apart, still running the original clutch. No computer, no key fob, no radio downloads - simplicity at its best.
Love this telling of your great bike!
I still have my old shovel from 81 and I must admit that it has had one rebuild and one top end but my speedo broke ages ago but she has a fairly strong background.
Same with mine, 2995 FXSTC, 130,000 miles, no engine work or rebuild, and original clutch. The only thing now is I don't get on the hwy so I don't have to push it so hard. All back roads.
Not everyone is trying to be the first guy to reach the next watering hole. EVO's for life!
Hell yeah!
😎🤘
1984 Softail Evo. Any Time I try to think about selling it, I go look at it and say, He'll No, CAN'T DO IT 😁
Harley started using the Softail frame that was invented by a biker in the '60s he had patented the Softail name. When Harley was using his frame design with his name he sued Harley-Davidson one and now they have permission to build the frame. Throughout its history Harley-Davidson has done Shady underhanded things. In the old days they would talk to suppliers and tell them if you sold say Wheels cuz this company he would not buy wheels from you. So in order to preserve your business from Harley-Davidson you would Short Change other customers. I remember they stole something from some guy in 1920s lost in court and it cost them I think $3 million in those days money. When Crocker started to build his motorcycles he was sued by Harley-Davidson. They went to court and in front of the Judges Bench was a brand new Harley knucklehead and a Crocker. The judge took one look at both motorcycles and told Harley-Davidson that they were lucky Crocker did not Sue them.
@Clovis Point it was the Honda Rebel that Harley tried sue Honda back in 80s. Harley tried to sue japanese bike manufacturers over it's twin sound.
When did Harley Davidson sue Honda and the Rotax motor in the AMA flat track racing motorcycles?? I think people forget about that
There are lots of false facts and bad dates in this comment and thread.
@@firechickenracin you need to elaborate on your statement. Where was it incorrect?
@@frankmarkovcijr5459 when Harley-Davidson was sued in the early 1900s they were sued by multiple manufacturers at the exact same time. This was an attempt to close Harley-Davidson and eliminate them from competition. What they had done was found any parts that they used alongside Harley-Davidson, found which ones Harley-Davidson never patented then filed the patent themself and sued Harley-Davidson. This was done with all the parts Harley-Davidson did not patent and it was underhanded
Another great video!!
I love my 1984 evo softail.
Still ride it hundreds of miles on cross state rides.
Even the original 4 speed tranny, chain final drive, and kickstarter/ plus electric start, is just fine for me.
In '84 my buddy bought a new Evolution Softtail (chain final). I remember the speedo maxed at 85 (that was cool - speed limit was 55). I was riding a '78 El Glide. I was very impressed and a couple years later I bought a new '86 Softail.
I said before , and I'll say it again, I have a 91 heritage and a 99 sporty , I told my wife to bury me with my heritage , you keep the sporty
It was the perfect storm. My stock '99 Heritage Springer softail is fine by me. Motor is bulletproof and the ride is more than adequate.
Very accurate video ! Yes I keep telling people: Harley-Davidson may have developed their motorcycles way back in time but nowadays Harley-Davidson is a trade company and almost all engineering is outsourced. See practically everything is purchased and not developed in house anymore. All engines starting from the mighty EVO are designed and developed In other factories and in foreign countries than at Harley Davidson itself. The European (German) company of Porsche is responsible for a lot of Air-cooled engine engineering, just like the European (Austrian) company of Rotax is responsible for a lot of the latest water-cooled engine engineering, although The first encounter Harley Davidson had with Rotax was the Air-cooled MT500 Off-Road motorcycle from (European) British company Armstrong, which was produced for the British Army. Harley Davidson managed to purchase the Armstrong Motorcycle company and talked to ROTAX to improve the existing MT500 into a better bike and so Rotax came up with the MT350. This all new Army motorcycle was re-badged into Harley Davidson and sold as such to the British Army. Harley Davidson had no experience with Off-Road machines at all at that time, but they did have marketing wise some ideas for the future: An competitor of the All-Road machine BMW GS1200: an All-Road machine with 1200 Cc water-cooled V-twin designed and developed and made by Rotax. Rotax first could develop a high powered water-cooled engine for the fast Buells at the time. And so the PAN AM was born, and the Sportster S as well, engine wise spoken.
Even the brakes: Made in Europe Italy at Brembo; all electrical wiring: made in Germany at Bosch, or at Japan at Denso. just like the ignition and the fuel injection. For decades the front-forks were made in Japan at Showa, which is a Honda company. All cockpits (Speed o-meter and the tachometer and other gauges) are Japanese and usually made at Denso. And so on...
There really is no such a thing as an All American Harley Davidson, not since the mighty EVO anymore.
It really is entirely a logical thing to do. Why to put a lot of money in, in house H-D, into Research and development, If existing products of far superior quality already exist? Or even to outsource the R&D since specialized companies can do this a lot better and far much more efficient than Harley Davidson can. It really makes a lot of sense. Without all imported tech from Europe and Japan, the company of Harley Davidson would no longer exist. These are all established facts.
Good to know the facts, still love my 91EVO FLHS.
Ask Eric Buell about ideas that Harley claim as their own.
That's really cool to know the history of the Softail. Thanks
Interesting video! Love my softail, great design, still the best looking harley ever.
Great info. I ride a softail and never knew that. Remember, there’s nothing soft about a softail
I rode my 88 Softail on a trip in 90. It was the 50th.yr anniversary of Sturgis Rally. I ended up riding almost 8000 miles in 24 days and it was my first road trip. I had 22in. apehangers, mild cam, Ram-Jet intake, Thunderjet modification in stock carb, 33 tooth primary pulley. It would haul ass and take pink slips. I had tools with me but, only used them on other bikes that had broken down. It still hauls ass and is in the garage as we speak. I've never had a wrench on it but for oil changes since! Best $10,000 I spent in my life!!
I have at 2015 Sportster Iron 883 I've always called my Norton 2.0. Rode a 1972 Norton Commando (Combat) back in the 80's for seven yrs as my every day rider. Had no idea how much history they shared. Love it!
Gotta love the free market to come up with the best ideas. Still riding my 85 Electra Glide
I have numerous books about the supposed history of HD. Regarding the softail frame one book says that 2 brothers out of ST. Louis designed it and HD saw it at a bike show , liked it and purchased the rights to it. Another book says that Bill Davis an engineer employed at HD designed it while working there. I believe what you are saying is what really happened. It's amazing how stories change from book to book. Thanks for getting it right.
I actually still have the Roadworx softail frame pamphlet that got me drooling for an upgrade before Harley bought 'em out.
1984 Softail Evo, any time I think about selling it, I go look at it and say, Hell No, CAN'T DO IT ! 😁
I watch all your videos, I have a 100th anniversary Dyna wide glide and would love for you to do more videos on the 88 carb bikes, I am doing the cam chain upgrade this winter, keep up the good work brother and ride safe!
My 99 Softail Custom is my favorite of all time motorcycle. How it all came together is interesting, but the fact that it did is what is great. Harley put out the finished product. The simplicity of the EVO Softail is what makes it for some of us old school guys. At 82 I am not into much but cruising the back roads which this bike does extremely well.
John Favill didn't design the Commando engine. All the Norton twins were developed from the original 500 designed by Bert Hopwood in 1947. The subsequent 600, 650, 750, and 830 engines differed only in capacity and in details such as the downdraft "SS" cylinder head first fitted to the US market Manxman 650.
Maybe that’s why the Evo is such a reliable engine.
Yes! Compare it to the Twin Cam and the M8 and it's STILL the most reliable Harley engine. What does that tell you?
@@VN9001Evolution, not only better then what it replaced, but better than what they replaced it with.
Never been a fan of the Softail but I did build one .I took the mid controls off a Dyna along with the narrow glide front end oh yeah I used the Dyna wheels 19 front & 16 rear painted it flat black & called it mad max sold it last summer & everyone that rode it says they never rid we n a Softail that handles as good as mad max ! EVO s RULE ! Learned some stuff I didn't know Thanks great video !
Great Video, don't apologise for giving us great content, we appreciate you!
I remember those soft tail frames being advertised in Easyrider magazine in the early 70s then suddenly they weren't. Harley then came out with one, I thought at the time no coincidence.
I remember that too you could take your swingarm shovel head super glide and put it in one of these frames you could buy the frame right out of eazyrider magazine right from the guy that designed them and yes all of a sudden the add was no longer in there I’m sure someone with a collection of old eazyrider mags could find it
Good video! I knew about the Evo design, but I didn't know about the Softail frame. Thanks for some great info!
Thanks for the deeper dive into the Softail origins/Sub=Shox frame! I never knew the background about Bill Davis. ✌😎
Great vid brother. Hey where's the overloaded shelf in behind you gone?
WOW!!! I've got a 92 Evo Softail and a 75 850 Commando....Never knew there was a connction... Pretty cool...
That Commando was my favorite Brit bike when it came out. Something "in your face" cool about it that the BSA's and Triumph's never quite had.
From southern California ~ Ride Forever!
You are correct. Harley did not design the Softail frame. In the '80s in the back of Easy Rider magazine advertisements there was a Softail frame there for sale. They bought it from him. Just like everything else we do the R&D for Harley. Also I owned a 73 Norton 850 commando. I believe they were the first motorcycle that had a rubber mounted engine also.
Yes, HD comes out with 'something new" and the aftermarket figures out how it should be built
Not the first. The shaft drive Sunbeam S7 and S8 had rubber mounts, and I am sure there were others. What was innovative was that the engine, gearbox, AND swinging arm were isolated from the frame by rubber mounts. The "Isolastic" mounts permitted vertical movement to absorb vibration, but not horizontal movement. This kept the transmission and rear wheel in line and allowed chain drive. Norton's system inspired the FXR rubber mounts that H-D introduced 15 years later.
the Commando 750 came with isolastic mounts...then the 850 model...a starter motor added on MK11 model...this was in 🇳🇿 US specs may have varied
@@owenbruce4120 my 850 didn't have the electric starter. It was a sweet ride I wish I still had it but that was 40+ years ago. Also unlike 75 and up it shifted on the correct side.
@@lpd1snipe - Roger that !
My father has a v-rod muscle and I enjoy the hell outta that thing! I never knew a stock harley could have so much butt-puckering torque! I would like to get myself one now.
Your Harley Davidson knowledge is incredible ‼️
Love your channel
Thank you for sharing.
You have some great content. Thanks for putting out quality stuff.
Back when the EVO came on the scene it was widely known that Dr. Porsche was heavily involved with design. Never heard anything about the Norton Commando connection either.
That’s what I read in books too
I remember seeing that frame advertised in the iron horse, or mighta been easy rider... The rest as they say is history.
Let me clarify your story, because I was there when it happened. Bill lived in Berkeley mo. Asked the bike shop a few miles from his house to help get fabrication started. They made 26 frames. I have #3 to this day with a panhead because no evo yet, and the frame was not designed for the evo. They sold the patent after 9 months of being in business to HD. They only got a few frames on hand. They sold the Heritage classic bike they designed too. That was bill the other partners bike. There is alot more to this story, i hope this helped.
That's incredible to hear from someone that was there!! I absolutely love this!
I'm a history nut. Thanks for sharing this info.
A 1984 Softail is my dream bike. My TC88 is nice, but I want the Evo with kick/electric start.
RIP, HD Inc. 1903-1999. When they stopped supporting the EVO, they lost me. FHD. Even brake parts needed to preserve life, are obsolete.
Very informative video! When the Softails first came out, the local dealer here sold many!
GixxerFoo... Old News!! Pretty much every manufacturer does this.. Harley is not the first or only company to hire someone and use their designs. The designers and engineers just work for a company they don't own it. That guy that built or designed engines for Norton didn't own the company he just worked there. Which definitely does NOT mean the Evo is a Norton design. Now that he works for Harley it's Harley's design.. Just because a designer or engineer works for 1 or 100 previous manufacturers means nothing. You see how that works, right?
An Englishman designing a Harley engine, kinda sets me in mind of the P-51d American design, English engine. A garage built frame changing an industry, what’s more American than that??? Love the videos, keep up the good work
Wow, Never knew this... and at least the frame was "designed in the USA!"
Great vid brother! Thanks for all the info you provide to all of us in the Harley world!
I love the V-Rod. Great bike and engine.
I am buying an evo . I am going to use stock cylinders with 9to 1 compression. A Andrews ev27 cam , s&s carb, s&s ignition, enclosed primary belt, an a oil cooler . I will let you know the horsepower an torque.
A Really enjoyable well done Video You have a Fan here in Arkansas
I love your videos. Thank you for all the knowledge
Very, very cool. VRod was a sweet design. Germans build quality.
@Clovis Point then the evo should have been called a norton
Had quite a few Norton's, a step up in durability to some other British iron I've owned with looks, performance, glorious sound and isolastic motor mounts...must've subconsciously picked up on that n gone with the Evo which has similar attributes...now you've shone a light on the lineage !! Thanks so much for your research 👍😎
Good video as always man 💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼
Want to see the engineering inspiration for the M8? Look at the 2006 Yamaha Stratoliner engine. Harley did leave off the hotrod bits and kept the sumping from the twin cam.
awesome video as always , that was a cool bit of history right there 👍
Thanks for the history lesson!
I consider the EVO engine a Harley engine because of the way it looks, the way it sounds, and the way it feels. I don't know who designed it, but I absolutely do not consider the M8 to be a Harley engine. Yes, it sort of looks like one, but that's where the resemblance ends. It does not even come close to sounding or feeling like one. My list of non Harley engines also includes the V-Rod, the Street series, the Revolution Max, and of course the battery powered toy Deadwire. Also, engines aside, the V-Rod, Street, "new" so called "Sportster" Pan America, and the Deadwire, are in no way Harleys. They don't even resemble Harleys. They may say H-D on them, but just because something says H-D on it does not make it a "Harley" A Harley must have certain "characteristics" that make it a Harley. And those date all the way back to the very first Harley V-Twin, but especially the Knucklehead. My list of "non Harleys" also includes all the small bikes that were made by Aermacchi in Italy. On the other hand, I actually do consider a Buell to be mostly a Harley, even though it does not say Harley on it. The Bikes may not look like Harleys, but they use Harley Sportster engines, which look, sound, and feel like a Harley.
As far as the "original" Softail design, it used a single top mounted mostly horizontal shock and spring, almost identical to the first Yamaha Monoshock, which they designed for dirt bikes, way back in 1975. The Yamaha design still uses a single shock, but it is now vertically mounted and incorporates a super complex linkage which is wear prone and difficult and expensive to rebuild. The version that H-D ended up with was later redesigned with two shocks mounted on the bottom, and they worked backwards to a normal shock/spring. Instead of compressing the spring, the new design actually extended the springs. Seems a bit weird, but it worked, and this is the design that H-D wound up with.
What really confuses me is that H-D had been putting EVO engines into rigid mount Softail frames for a really long time before the Twin Cam engine came out, and as far as I know, there were no issues in doing so. But for some reason, H-D decided they needed a BALANCED version of the Twin Cam for the rigid mount Softail frames. I would probably never consider buying a Twin Cam engine anyway, considering just what it would take to make it reliable, but I would certainly never buy a Twin Cam in a Softail, because of the balancer. The whole concept of making a Harley engine smoother is completely wrong to me. A big part of what I love about Harleys is how they feel.
Bullseye!
Thankfully I have a '99 Fat Boy and have been to the H.D. Museum several times and saw the soft tail story that's on the wall. Did Harley ever use the the upper shock in production or go right to the twin shocks on the bottom?
@@jefffrayer8238 They started with the twin shocks on the bottom. There has never been a Harley made (to my knowledge) with just one shock.
Excellent program as always!!
Softail has always been such a nice smooth ride and oh how my old back loves it! Every bike I have ever owned I have ridden them with their stock suspension. Never put aftermarket suspension on any one of them. But I was younger and it didn't bother me when bottoming out! Now that I'm a old codger my back is paying me back. My old 92 Fatboy is still a cadillac ride and when I hit rough road I don't worry about it. Softail Evo, all day everyday! Loved the video GixxerFoo!
That's awesome to hear, I love it when I see Evo out on the road! Especially a Softail or Dyna model, seems like all you see out there today is touring bikes anymore.
Yeah I remember reading easy Rider and for a month or two maybe it was more there was a guy that was trying to sell his frame design. Never made much of it until the Softail come out years later...
I ❤my Heritage Softail Deluxe, but I’m happy to ‘tip my hat’ to Bill Davis! It certainly embodies the heart and soul of the Company. Thanks, GixxerFoo, for the insight!
Harley museum has that bike that was the first softail on display. And it's not even close to what Harley did with there softail and a evo motor is almost identical to shovel internally just more redefined to say some else designed it not buy it .
The difference between the Evolution engine and the V-Rod was that the Evolution was a direct descendant of the Knucklehead-Panhead-Shovelhead line --- hence the Evolution name. The V-Rod had no Bill Harley legacy in it -- just like the SportsterS engine has no Sportster engine heritage in it. Doesn't even sound like a Harley. Whether or not Harley-Davidson can transform itself into an entirely new identity with a new customer demographic will be interesting to watch.
Thanks for the history lesson.
I have a 2005 dyna and 1999 evo 80 inch softail that I will ride more because it feels more comfortable the dyna I use more for around town stuff
Love my 95 Evo Softail motor is 92 cu in lowered the back end 1 in softened the shock springs put a harmonic balancer on crank in the primary no internal chains no fly by wire no computer 45 mm mikuni 2into 1 into 2 exhaust rides great runs great .So what's the problem? Oh ya I know that would be Nothing what ever twin cam man I was riding before you were born . 50 years on a Harley still got my first one 68 flh ride free
Great video on HD history!
Great video today my friend always like the cool knowledge u have
Keep the vids churning out!
02 softtail duce was my first hd love the sound of that bike
More of this style of video, please!
Great video I always love all your videos always great content thanks for sharing JT
Fascinating video mate, I havea 1949 Norton es2, lovely motor!
Still riding a 92 Heritage,rings and valve grind once and a ton of tires later,EVO forever.whoever gets credit good job.
the other engine assesed alongstid the VeeRod was designed by the same guy who developed the susuki gsxr range
Evo for life🤘
Love the VROD
Thanks brother another awesome video great information.
All the best from NZ 🇳🇿
100 hours? I mean, don't most evo motors spend all their time at WOT anyway? Lol
John Favill is brilliant and still speaks at Norton rallies. The Isolastic on Norton's Commando was a brilliant ancestor of the rubbermount Evo though that involved Barry Controls who made the mounts.
This is why I absolutely love RUclips, you reach such an exspance of knowledge. I never knew that, but British bikes with their firing order are really close to Harley, that's why they still remained competitive against the XR 750 in flat track putting the power to the ground on the dirt. It makes absolute sense the mounting system was likely copied from Norton.
I wonder how much HD payed for his patents and designs?
The softail arrangement (shocks or spring’s below) was used by moto guzzi in the late 30s into the 60s possibly later. Look up moto guzzi falcone, springs are underneath. So mr. engineer didn’t invent shit. Oh yeah, don’t forget about the inverted forks on the falcone
My first motorcycle was one of the first Norton Commando's that were produced.
As far as I remember, Bernard Hooper and John Favill came over from Villiers.
I think John Favill did most of the work on the gearbox and Bernard Hooper the cylinder head and camshaft drive. Bob Trigg did the frame work.
But indeed John was a genious engineer.
BTW.
Funny that the EVO is designed by the British John Favill and everyone calls it a Harley engine.
Where a Harley engineer Erik Buell designs a motorcycle that many refuse to see as a Harley 😉
@Clovis Point probably not much good:)
Agreed
Love my '91 FXR. when I ride it I'm in no big hurry to get anywhere, just that 80" stock EVO just keeps purring alomg
Yah me to mate 93 f.x.r just love the fucking bike man. All the best from 😎 Australia 🇦🇺.
Does this make the Evo or the Softail any less Harley-Davidson?
Harley has been built on stolen ideas since Willie G. bought the company back from the AMF. So to answer your question, they are 100% Harley-Davidson.
Now that I know the origin/ back story in my opinion yes, it's not a Harley Davidson design.
GixxerFoo.. NO!! If the guy that was with Norton, now with Harley leaves and goes to work for Honda, does that make Honda now designed or engineered by Norton and Harley? People need to stop spreading BS they know nothing about.
Thanks for sharing this information! I always love your videos!
Bullshit
I'm old I remember seeing them frames in easyriders magazine in the 70s. Saying the vrod is not. A hd would be like saying ser0001 is not a Harley . It was the 20s or thirty s when they had their 1st 4 value heads.
Thank you. Finally, Bill Davidson gets his due on www media.
Love the 1994 Electra glide and 1990 softail I got . Ride on
I always heard the Evo was designed by ex-Honda engineers. The way they use studs sandwiching the cylinder blocks between the cases and head is common to all the air-cooled 70s~80s Japanese air-cooled 2/4cyl motors.
Who do you think the japs copied !! 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 and just to put a twist on it, Triumph was originally started by a German engineer !
@@HarleyFurgesson Japs copied WHAT? Most of the Jap bikes used the long studs and sandwiched cylinder block since the late 60's. And don't forget, Harley SOLD the Japanese company Ruiko a license to produce their flathead VL motor before WWII.
Reakky interesting information. Nice job.
Posche went too it's first water cooled flat 6 in 1996 with the boxster(986) and then later with the 911(996) so they would know that transition. VW did it with the typeIV bus or Vanagon motor using a air cooled block with water jacketed sleeves on the cylinders in the early 80's. A real piecemealed design. Makes sense Porsche would do the Vrod not having motorcycle their own.
It has been a very long time since Harley Davidson was a ground breaking kind of company.
Thanks for sharing
😎👍
The softail has always been my favorite frame.
Harley was like edison trying to steal patents
Outstanding information 👍🇺🇸
Yet another informative video great stuff
Mine is a true Harley......it's a night-Rod
Oh My God! You mean to tell me an American corporation, staffed by Americans, operated by Americans, and owned by Americans is smart enough to recognize good ideas and the bring them into commercial success?!? Ain't that a bitch. Folks being successful, and they are Americans, ......that's got to be hard for some folks to take.
damn interesting stuff! thanks!
Well done.
The Norton motor was designed by Bert Hopwood in 1947. It had been bored and strokes over the years until its 750 form it was overstressed and unreliable. The isolastic frame it was in would wiggle down the road if the adjusters were not proper. In typical British keep this they left off adjustable rubber mount to say pennies and so you have to take half the bike apart in order to adjust them only in the last 2 years of Norton Commando production with the adjustable pieces added to the frame. When Norton rubber mounted the the atlas it lost 30 lb in weight becoming the Commando. When Harley rubber mounted the Sportster it gained 80 lb. What's up with that?
It's one thing to say developed by a British engineer is something else to say built. The Norton Commando sold 7,000 motorcycles a year and they used all their government Aid to pay for their monetary losses because 7,000 motorcycles a year does not pay for factory stay in business. The Commando frame is only used in production racing because it is inferior and handling to the legendary feather bed frame. 65 miles south of me and Naples Florida there's a company that makes reproduction feather bed frames as well as alloy fuel tanks, seats fenders so you can create your own bike around their product.