What if William Wallace had WON The Battle of Falkirk?
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- Опубликовано: 23 фев 2024
- How key was Willam Wallace's defeat at The Battle of Falkirk? Scottish history tour guide, Bruce Fummey meets emiment historians Fiona Watson and Martin MacGregor to ask the question What if Willliam Wallace had won the Battle of Falkirk?
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Macbeth: A True Story www.quercusbooks.co.uk/titles...
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Scotland History Tours is here for people who want to learn about Scottish history and get ideas for Scottish history tours. I try to make videos which tell you tales from Scotland's past and give you information about key dates in Scottish history and historical places to visit in Scotland. Not all videos are tales from Scotland's history, some of them are about men from Scotland's past or women from Scotland's past. Basically the people who made Scotland. From April 2020 onward I've tried to give ideas for historic days out in Scotland. Essentially these are days out in Scotland for adults who are interested in historical places to visit in Scotland.
As a Scottish history tour guide people ask: Help me plan a Scottish holiday, or help me plan a Scottish vacation if your from the US. So I've tried to give a bit of history, but some places of interest in Scotland as well.
Upcoming Live shows www.brucefummey.co.uk/shows.aspx
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Would really like to see you squeeze in a show on Prince Edward Island home to many a Scot decendant.
@@HowWeGotHere I emailed and phoned several venues, but couldn't get any to respond
Lovely to see fiona Watson after all these years. I studied Scottish history under her at Stirling University in the 90s. She hasn't changed a bit. I remember her being outspoken about historical inaccuracies with Braveheart lol
It's not outspoken to point out historical inaccuracies
Were there any "historical *accuracies* " in Braveheart 😄
@@euansmith3699Hunners!
What some may consider as her being 'outspoken' was more than likely her being more forceful, than was considered 'lady-like'. Historical research and knowledge had long been considered as strictly a 'male province' and for a woman to 'contradict' or even venture an opinion on such weighty matters, to some was considered nearly blasphemous. I say good on her!
Beannaich Dia na h-Albannaich anns a ’Ghàidhlig! ~~ Seas gu cinnteach
@@euansmith3699- Of course, there were. One major one right off the top, is we really don't know what William Wallace looked like other than a vague general description. He wasn't prestigious enough to sit for a portrait, especially considering how the English executed him.
As a former soldier Wallaces raid into northern England makes perfect sense. You fight on the enemies land not your own, you use their supplies to feed your troops harbouring your own supplies and you provoke your enemy into fighting whilst you are still strong. If Edward had of waited Wallace couldn't have kept his army in the field indefinitely but he knew no king could fail to answer his challenge. Excellent video Bruce💙 🏴
Pish 😂
This means alot to me most of my family are Wallace's one of my relatives john (Jack) young wallace died at 26 trying to save trapped miners in the Essington collerie explosion no one survived 😢 he was a rescue worker died of toxic fumes
Wow
How does this relate to the discussion in hand?
@@agamemnonhatred- Not a thing wrong with sharing a family-related bit of history with a famous figure. If you don't like or appreciate his anecdotal information, don't read it and just move on without being a refuse pile.
@@mstrdiver😂😂The family anecdote has nothing to do with the Wallace. Why do Septics feel that their 'truth' has any relation to historical fact, you knob cheese sandwich eater?
Not my father told me he said if you live past the age of 30 you were considered an old man I was born in 1962 and I remember him telling me these words he must have been an ancient he lived to 33
I hope one day we stop wars all together. My grandfather fought in the first war and later in life died from the mustard gas he was exposed to. This is why studying history is so important so we can prevent wars in the future. Just so you know my grandfather was part of the Colorado 15 that helped start the Denver art museum. He was an impressionistic artist after the war and I believe it helped him deal with the war. Even our darkest day we can find joy in the things we give back to society. Keep believing we can make a difference. Love your channel!
Edward wanted scotland under his power. He had to come north so he could rule scotland through his barons. He gave land and money to scotish barons who betrayed wallace and his men on the battlefield. Wallace wanted independence but it was robert the bruce a more politically savy animal that could rule scotland.
The rise of the Bruce also meant a shift in the balance of power of the clans. The fall of Clan Comyn and its allies, and the rise of Clan MacDonald and Clan Chattan who went on to dominate the power and politics of the north and west up into the 1700s, and who are still some of the biggest Scottish clans today
The biggest clans? What are you on about? No one and I mean no one lives by that system and nor does it have any power anymore.
@fearnpol4938 dude, no one said we do. However, the impact on clan power at the time is clear, and that has had a last impact to today in terms of the number of people today who would trace their lineage back to clans like MacDonald and the various Clan Chattan clans. There's a reason for that, and a straight line can be drawn to the Bruce's ascendancy
Great video Bruce. I’m watching this from Falkirk, just up near the Wallace Stone where he allegedly observed the incoming English army.
THAT was Excellent Bruce! Felt like being in the room. Really enjoyed the shared and differing perspectives. Wonderful Conversation.
Had Wallace won the battle, Mel Gibson would have made a sequel to his award winning documentary.
Mibbye aye😜
So many things I never considered and I agree it was great to hear some differences of opinions. I especially enjoyed that they respectfully discussed like adults. Here in US we scream and rant like 4 yr olds in a sandbox and end up kicking sand at each other or worse. I will rewatch this again cause they both have so much historical knowledge. Thank you again Bruce for the high quality content!!
For entertainment?
@@myparceltape1169 ?
Americans seem to think that disagreeing is personal disrespect…the under 50 crowd, anyway. They act like children, as you say!
Get two Scots in a room with just water to drink, talking about William Wallace and there will be a very spirited discussion whether they've had spirits or not! I'm glad you were there to moderate!😅 It was a truly entertaining video Bruce! I appreciated the views they shared. Thanks for bringing it to us! Hope we get to see more like this in the future. 😊
😜
"Any Fool can attack an army and die, a wise man doesn't plan an attack, he plans a victory." That quote from Evans, IMHO, applies to the Battle of Falkirk. Wallace, concerned with getting the kingdom up and running, didn't look at the long game. That the Wars for Independence were a long game, and not to be one by a single battle. Perhaps Wallace, flush with success at Stirling and the mayhem he created in the North of England, didn't see the moves that Edward would make.
There's also the division amongst the supporters of Baliol vs the supporters of the Bruce. That division played a role in the support Wallace received at Falkirk. If I'm understanding the magnitude of support from the nobles together at Falkirk, there's a notable absence of Bruce supporters at Falkirk. That division ties one of Wallace's arms behind his back. The introduction of the Welsh Archers, a decisive new dynamic weapon to the battlefield, and one which Wallace was unprepared for. Was Wallace even aware or did intelligence reports fail to highlight the new threat on the battlefield, or was the threat disregarded? We'll never know for sure, but it does demonstrate a failure to anticipate Edward's actions during the Battle, and Edward pounced on that failure, exploiting it as fully as possible.
One of the problems with getting the history correct through epic movies, asides from the grotesque historical inaccuracies, is the compression of the timeline. Viewers gain no sense of the time involved, of how long it took to assemble an army and move it any distance beyond a day's march. It took months not days, and in some cases, years to gather the necessary pieces on the chessboard. Wallace didn't look forward far enough into the future, Bruce did. By fighting a war of attrition, Bruce's patience removed a King from the chessboard, replaced with a much weaker king Edward II, Bruce could counter every move the younger Edward made.
Nine long years passed between Wallace's brutal execution and the Battle of Bannockburn. What motivated Bruce more, Wallace's mistreatment, or that his wife and daughter were Hostages, and his brothers suffering cruel mistreatment and death as well at Longshank's hands?
I'd bet on the latter as his main motivation/inspiration. Bruce lost many of the smaller moves Edward made against him, but won the Victory by playing the long game.
I believe we focus a bit to deeply on the betrayals among the nobles at times, and lose sight that there was a great divide between the nobles dependent almost entirely on which family they supported to hold the crown, Baliol or Bruce.
We mustn't forget that John Baliol was chosen by Edward, not because he would be the better King, but because Edward knew he could control him. John Baliol, Edwards puppet.
At the root of it all, the Scots Nobilities egregious misjudgement of turning to Edward to choose between the two families for who would hold the throne of Scotland.
I think it is much simpler than that. Wallace saw a weakened army in front of him. No doubt spies told him of their supply issues. I think the numbers of bowman did take him by surprise. In the planning, he believed his light calvary could take care of that threat. So he rolled the dice. Not because he didn't see the long game, but because he knew that even a draw that forced the English to retreat would buy his country time. Much like Colluden centuries later, the heads of clans and the men would have also been pushing for a fight. He chose his ground pretty well by all accounts.
This was a great presentation. It had the feeling of learned colleagues hanging out and having a discussion. It looked genuine, like you were all out together for a coffee and just started talking. I find this style more enjoyable than videos with an overly pedantic feeling. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it! That's what we were going for
Being a child of the Union ( born in England , Scottish father ) . I love hearing the real truth of Scotland. A what if ? Thats different. The issue with the Jacobite revolution was that it was more like a European war than purely a Scottish revolution. Over a dozen nations being involved.
I feel that the Jacobites could have done with doing some more market research in to their popularity south of the border. Also, having Charles Edward Louis John Sylvester Maria Casimir Stuart as the figurehead might have appealed to romantics, but strategically, he was a real liability.
2 competing unionist dynasties, more than the religious and national aspects people emphasize today
What if, are always interesting, like what if King James IV of Scotland had won the Battle of Flodden. This is certainly possible, given the Scottish army outnumbered the English by 8,000. What if King James scouted the area first and had attacked by another route?
If Scotland had won, Edward, would be forced to abdicate, and England would’ve changed forever!
Seems like if that had happened the Bay City Rollers might never had existed
I really enjoyed three intelligent and knowledgeable Scots having a good blether.
I love your channel and watch all your videos.
History tinged with humour.
Brilliant.
Much appreciated!
Always buzzing when you drop
That was a lively discussion and there weren't even pints on the table. Well done.
😜
Wonderful video, I was amazed at the point you made that we forget the everyday dealings of these men. I has really only thought of Wallace as a warrior, not running the country. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it
Theres a whole film script in there. What if.... Its what would have followed from that which you were all exploring at the end. I can see that something like the Declaration of Arbroath would still have happened - maybe not at the same date or the same town but the principle would have needed to be resolved. The English came back for Bannockburn so it was clearly unfinished business for them. A loss at Falkirk might have pushed it higher up their to-do list.
Fascinating stuff, Bruce.
Pushed it up something… lol
I really wish BBC Scotland would commission you to do a series Bruce.
They couldn’t afford me😜
True!
Great to see Fiona Watson. Nice one, Bruce.
This history is so interesting. At this period of time this is the history of every one who has ancestors from Scotland. I am an American but most of my ancestry is from Scotland so this is my history. I find Robert the Bruce and the Douglas family in family line after after family line that I decend from. Thank you for telling me the story of my ancestors.
A'body's ancestors really😎
Ok. So I had to watch 2x. Fiona was great. Great discussion. Makes me wish that my ancestors (on all sides) could have settled things differently.
Canadian viewer. This was a SUPERB video. The discussion was incredibly smart and sharp. I really enjoyed listening to multiple Scottish historians discuss an important event. The title is misleading because I thought the idea was on par with Rangers winning 20 titles in a row. And not going bankrupt. I hope to see more discussions like this.
I don't know if @ScotlandHistoryTours watched American historians discussing the life of US President Grant on the History Channel, but you could take the approach of your video and have a very successful program for everyone. I look forward to the next discussion. 😊
I don't have telly
Sennachie, a fascinating tale of "what If?" I think that your point that history depends on chance is well illustrated. Thank you for making history come alive with the possibilities.
If you ever done a video on, If Scotland hadn't joined the Union in the 1700s?
Video idea: how did the Scottish Parliament building come to be? Why is it so hideous? Why was it so expensive?
Fascinating conversation, Bruce. And I was somewhat bemused to see these "traditional" academics squirm a bit when you insisted they fully step into the land of speculation and 'what if.' Definitely outside their comfort zone, but once you got them fully on board their thoughts were absolutely captivating. Well played, sir.
Thank you SO MUCH to your guests for taking the time to sit and talk with us, so incredible.
A very fascinating conversation. Thank you
thank you, Bruce for another great story. it was a very good scenario to ponder.
I'm tellin ye, 'twas lack of of a Murray that led to the defeat!😂
Aye maybe
1 APR 2024 - I can’t tell you how enjoyable your adventures into Scottish cultural history are and I hope for many more. And I especially looked forward to the segment on ‘What if Wallace had won at Falkirk’ - however, with two very knowledgable experts, as a viewer I missed so many items due to the interrupting and over talking and bursts of jocularity - all very normal for the three of you to enjoy conversations among yourselves, however, I could have learned so much more had the three of you, after having the delightful blether together as a ‘warm-up’, had then made the video for us to watch, catching much more of the actual information about the historical battle + the ‘what if’ extensions by these experts had Wallace won - this is not a criticism of you, these experts or the topic - my deep appreciation for all that … but I needed the information to be served up a bit more carefully like ALL of your other amazing firsts into Scottish historical culture with us tagging along enthralled 😊. Thank you so much -/ a voice out of the diaspora
Thank you Bruce
Very interesting discussion❤
If you ever do a Scottish history show in Texas I’ll drop anything to attend. Your work on the McGregor that played the Pipes at the Alamo was beautiful.
Yeah the plan is to confine my shows to Scotland, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. The visa hurdles don't justify the effort to put on shows in the US.
What a fascinating conversation! Thank you for sharing this.
Good video Bruce interesting discussion.
Put me in mind of radio discussions on the BBC. A feature of my childhood and good discussions no longer a feature on BBC radio.
Really enjoyed, different perspectives on an interesting question. Thanks all.
I loved how, two third of the way through the video, Bruce had to restate his original question. 😄
Fascinating & fun!
Part of this was the, what if Scotland won? The last point about France and Scotland winning because of their alliance is even more widespread. Many of your videos feel to me like some kind of nexus point. Where one other outcome would ripple through history in fascinating ways. How many times would all of European, and American history change if Scotland, Ireland, or both, as we imagine this alternate history, had won? Fascinating! So much might be different. Like all of your content well done and thank you.
Phenomenal discourse and conversation, Bruce.
That was brilliant😎👍
(somehow, almost metaphorical - as far as Bruce/Wallace - once the pair of them started to roll up their sleeves a bit there!)😜
Fiona's brilliant as well😎
(I remember much of her commentary on other historical works some time ago)
"What might've been," indeed...
But "now's the day, and now's the hour":
Best of luck at Murrayfield!
🏴
🏴
😉💪💪💪💪💪💪
Off to watch the game now
@ScotlandHistoryTours
Congrats👏👏👏
They all made like Bruce and played the 'long game'😎👍
(shame there weren't any great South Africans round then at Falkirk, though, eh)😜😂
Excellent discussion. Really enjoyed the different views and potential outcomes in this case.
Glad to hear it!
Bruce. Many a time have I walked across the Stirling Old Bridge (near to where the original bridge of William Wallace fame existed). It's been 15 years, but it is a treat to see it in one of your videos. I have often wondered if I might sound like you had I stayed in Perth, but, alas, my family exiled to the colony of Canada almost 60 years ago when I was 10 so I have a different twang. And now they are letting you into Canada? You'll be three hours away when you do your 4th of July show. All the best with your tour. I'll buy you another cuppa to keep you going.
What do you think the impact of the loss of Andrew Moray was?
Severe loss of strategic thinking - in my view.
What a great video Bruce! I think I may be in love with Fiona - what a guest.
Great talk with two experts! Looking forward to reading Fiona's Under the Hammer.
Hope you enjoy it!
Love these what ifs bruce! brilliant👍🏴🏴🏴
Thanks 👍
Fiona's book about Edward 1st is at my library. Maybe I'll get it for Historathon. Thanks for this discussion.
Defo
Great discussion reakky enjot these interview episodes and love the speculation.
Hi! I really love your delivery and knowledge of Scottish history. Thank you so much for sharing all. I am hoping to know more about the highlanders migrating to Glasgow at the beginning of the 19th Century. What was happening in the highlands? The Campbells are known as a large, ‘successful’ clan. Were large numbers not sustainable in their places of origin? Was rural life just at a tipping point? Many ended up in Glasgow building ships including some of my ancestors. Best wishes, M
Thank you.
You're welcome!
For me, if Wallace had won Falkirk, King John would have returned and would only have delayed, Robert De Bruce and extended the Wars of Independence by 10-20 years, but would have still ended with Bannockburn style victory.
A good discussion
Bruce can you do a video about John Lawrence Torley 1852-1897. His father was from Carnacally, near Newry in Northern Ireland. He was born at Duntocher at the foot of Old Kilpatrick Hills.
Bruce, you always have interesting topics. The if and but questions are a good one, as the saying goes “if all ifs and buts were candy and nuts we will have a jolly good Christmas”
Look forward to next weeks episode. Cheers
Is the bridge at Stirling Bridge the original one, where the battle was fought? 😎
The pub table talk is really interesting, and gives some great perspective in to the wider setting.
It is nice to people giving each other time to make their points; great guests.
It's not the bridge from 1297. It dates back to the 15th or 16th century. It is the first stone Bridge at Stirling prior to that they were wooden. It think it's generally agreed that the 1297 bridge was slightly upstream
@@Wee_LangsideThank you. Britain, eh, even the "new" bridge is 4 - 500 years old 😄👍
@euansmith3699 The French are as bad the Pont Neuf, the New Bridge, is the oldest bridge in Paris was completed in 1607
Very Interesting, bringing two different perspectives to light on this period of history. And a rousing difference of opinions! Most enjoyable!
Glad you enjoyed it!
A much pertinent what if is, What if Harold had won at Hastings, as the Normans were the wrecking balls
Such an interesting discussion between three passionate historians. Your videos just keep giving, Bruce 🌞
Thank you kindly
Always an interesting question....cheers sir, keep well....E...😊😊😊
Thanks!
LOVED listening to these two
I Hope you come to Ireland / south sometime Bruce... another fascinating episode. 'Go raibh maith agat' / be'Thankith
Now that was some super interesting information there. Thank you
This was really interesting. Thank you for sharing!
You're welcome
Wonderful conversation. Thank you so much!
Interesting to hear that the Scots had a Chiltern at the top of a hill while the English cavalry was bogged in down the bottom ... But according to what I've read is there's no accurate confirmation on where the battle took place in Falkirk
Class video as always Bruce - Still hoping to see you cover the period after bannockburn involving Myton On Swale and Old Byland! ⚔️🏴
History does turn on... coffee. Who knew?
I've seen Fiona on a few other shows. Very cool guests!
Very interesting video to watch and listen to Bruce 👍👍
A great discussion about what could have happened interesting thoughts Love when historians argue about the possible alternative paths
This is brilliant!! one of the best video of it's type I have seen, a real privillage thank you so much
Simple and effective. Thanks.
On seeing that Bruce will be in my locality, I thought, "I'll go and see him." No I won't. I'm going to be on holiday when he's in my area. D'oh!
Great !!! A new brucey fumey vidya -exactly what I need in my life thanks Bruce fella
Enjoy!
Brilliant. Great guests. 👍🏻
We agree!
Really interesting hypothesis and a great discussion on what ifs. Would love to watch more discussions from historians on their views in the future.
More to cone June
Fascinating, thank you.
Any chance you'll record your show, since you won't come to the States?
It's not impossible
Always educational
Would love to see a deep dive of clan Comyn. Clearly the coolest clan 😎
Love you, bruce. Down with clan Bruce!!!!
Absolutely brilliant insight on how it was or could have been
I almost left the conversation when they said "if the Scots cavalry stayed around", but then Edward raided Annandale and I was in. If you know you know.
Bruce, great video, as always. Quick question though, do you have any videos of your stand up shows available to your Patreon members?
Bruce great discussion. I have read that Wallace wasn’t even there ( only at the beginning) at battle of Falkirk . Wonder if that’s true ? My mothers paternal ancestors ( MacLaren ) were from Perth . R clan fought at Pinkie , Flodden & Bannockburn according to the Ragmans roll. Enjoyed this upload ! ❤
Great!
The Bruce weighed in for Scotland after Falkirk, because the English victory meant that a Baliol return was near nil in likelihood.
Awesome vid
Dr Watsons book Under the Hammer, I think shows pretty well that the English were maybe days from having to turn back. I think Wallace knew his authority rested on victory. He saw a weakened army before him. So he rolled the dice. I agree with Watson that the Welsh bowmans effect did not play a factor into the Scots strategy. I think they knew they would face Welsh bowman but the numbers took them by surprise. What makes Wallace such an interesting figure is the shadowy nature of his mind. It would be great to know what his actual thoughts were. I think had he waited he could have scored a victory by harassing the English until a better situation could be found along the English retreat.
Just a passing thought, could you please make a video on the Good Sir James Douglas?
Do you know I've been meaning to do it for ages
That was a very entertaining discussion Bruce. I hope you will do some more with professional academics. Interjecting your wit with their knowledge was brilliant.
There will be more to come
11:11#Amen#LMAO. I LOVE You All Soooooooo much. I CANT WAIT TO SEE YOU ALL ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤NOW I REALLY KNOW I JUST DONT KNOW WHARE TO GO FIRST. #AMEN11.
What if either the army of Athelstan or the army of Constantine had won decisively at Brunanburh in AD 937? Now, there’s an alternative history.
Any chance of coming to Cornwall? After your Gogglebox appearance you might get the Hall for Cornwall but you'd certainly pack out the Old Bakehouse in Truro
The subtitles disappeared at 1.46 and didn't reappear.