Thank you so much! I hope you benefit from all the content here on the channel, and let me know if you have questions or a particular topic you want me to cover. Best, John
From France...I know this tips of the rotation of the wrist when you hit the ball, but your explications and the slow motion, make the difference. Thanks a lot.
Found this wrist/elbow break out while finishing a 2 hour lonely serve practice a year ago. No POP ! on what was a decent serve. 5'8" tall( or short ! ) so serving , especially under pressure moments at this tall/ short is forever a shadowy presence. Fatigue and the last 5 balls gave me a relaxed outlook. Tossed ball and concentrated on yanking that arm quickly down. Wham ! Ball expolded before I'd usually had time to track it. 3 more with similar timing gave a deeper ball but had a little rear up on it too. Last serve I framed due to inner joy and a feeling of eureka !. This folks is GREAT ADVICE. It works and with less effort than the forced serve. One added bonus also , I seemed to be in a better recovered position for the return. Thankyou ever so much for this video. I'm a subscriber now. Hwyl from Cymru ( Wales)
Hi Jeff, I love it when players benefit from my lessons...thank you! Keep me updated on your progress! If you are interested, I do offer video analysis, which has proven to be very helpful. Let me know. Best, John
Just gotta say that from 7:15-8:00 is where my journey lies. His is not a small thing. I appreciate you taking the time to break out these amazing small but crucial details. Thank you John!
Thank you so much, Eileen! I hope you benefit from all the contact here on the channel, and reach out to me if I could ever help you further. Kindly, John
Hi John, i just start playing tennis about 6 weeks ago, in my 50 is of age, searching how to.. how to.. in tennis and crossed path you video, love your explanation, nail it, simple yet detail how to… wish you come down here in australia to couch me he he he… if you dont mind like to know 1 hand backhand spin. Cheers john, love it.
Hi Dhinno, Thanks for the great feedback! Be sure to check out my backhand lessons here on the channel. You can also get this course which includes videos reviews by me to guide you: performanceplustennis.com/one-handed-topspin-backhand-foundation-description/. Kindly, John
Dear John Sir, Namaste i have searched more then two days for this type of lesson ........ thank you really good Guidance ... Thank You Sir..........A Fan From INDIA...
One of the most overlooked aspects that are not thought even at intermediate and advance levels. Thanks for the video. It took me like 20 years to finally learn to pronate 😳
One of the reasons this is hard for ordinary tennis players is because visually, it doesn't seem to be ergonomic or doesn't follow the natural flow of the arm and wrist when you're trying to impart a specific spin like a slice or twist. Does this apply only for flat serves? Am trying to wrap my head around how the pronation happens after imparting a spin that causes the wrist to rotate contrary to the direction of the suggested pronation... I hope they can show it in super slow motion.
Hi Zandz, Thanks for your comments and contribution to the video/ lesson. The concept of pronation occurs with every type of serve because the shoulder has to deliver the racquet, and the end result is long-axis rotation from the shoulder out to the right for a right handed player. Yes, the path of the racquet differs from each type of serve (spin), but pronation will is a component regardless of the spin. I hope this hopes. Don't over think it, and keep me updated on your progress. thanks, John
Great video John! This was an eye popping revelation. Also we always hear about pronation being a natural motion and that we shouldn't force it into the swing path. How do you find the right balance then? Thanks very much, John
Hi Phillippe, Thanks for your comments and great question! I think the answer is it depends on your style and mobility. We see someone like Federer, who is so natural and unforced vs players that appear so deliberate in creating their pronation, particularly after contact. Good examples go back to Sampras, Becker, Raonic and Nadal...just to name a few. These players all keep the upper arm (shoulder) up until the racquet tip is pointing to the ground. This intention produces maximum pronation. However, my friend Jeff Salzenstein says he never thought about pronation when he was on the ATP tour. So, what is the answer? Experiment. Be purposeful, but also relaxed and natural. A lack of relaxation is the biggest power leak on the serve and also leads to a greater potential for injury. Stay tuned. I am going to post a video this week that I KNOW will be of interest to you.Thanks and take care, John
@@PerformancePlusTennis Hi Have subscribed to your channel so will not miss a video. Have started to use your advice in my serve training and it has already started to make a difference in the power of my serve. Just need to keep practicing to do it more consistently.
I worked on it today on my home court in Barbados. It has worked for me. I will be watching more of your videos.I am working on my one hand backhand next
Hi Pearl, Thanks for your question. For sure the degree of pronation varies for flat, vs slice and topspin. Flat and slice are very similar. Topspin is quite a different racquet path up and into the ball, and the pronation is not as pronounced into contact. Best, John
I found that comparing the serve motion to throwing a football vs a baseball especially if you're throwing it long works better for me, In baseball your target is between the ankles and the chest whereas you're aim in football is a lot higher and the ball rolls off your fingers which replicates the pronation. I also think of throwing a javelin or hatchet similar to throwing upwards more and keeping the edge of the racket moving towards the ball longer. What do you think? Great video though.
Hi, Thanks for your comments. I think the release of a football is generally closer to the serve motion, but still needs the 45 degree angle in the shoulders to throw from. Also, the contact on the serve is where the extension occurs. In the case of throwing a ball, the arm / elbow is not extended upon release. Finally, I think the hatchet is a better analogy than the javelin, as the javelin is thrown with a nearly straight arm throughout the forward motion...quite a bit different than the serve motion. Thanks, John
I’m an intermediate player in my 60’s. I have never used pronation in my serve. I would need to practice this a lot. I do the opposite motion finishing with supination of my service stroke. My shoulder does seem flexible enough to learn this, however.
Thanks for your comment. Pronation can only be performed in conjunction with the continental grip. If you have a forehand grip, or anything close, the movement of pronation will not work. Do check your shoulder flexibility and go SUPER SLOW to get the feel of the movement. Finally, supination can naturally occur on the finish (when finishing across the waist). Stay tuned!
Thanks John for this excellent explanation! I have trained this for quite some time and still didn't get rid of the old wrong arm motion, which you mentioned shortly in about minute 8:26. I would appreciate if you put more attention to this wrong arm motion since I see that all of the players in our club do this! And I would appreciate if you could give some hints on how to correct this. In slow motion I can do exactly what you show, also when I serve without power. But when I want to put power into my serve, the old wrong arm motion is there again!
Hi Sony, Thanks for the comments and feedback. It is not unusual for the swing pattern to change somewhat when you go for a powerful (flatter) serve, as you are taking a lot of forward motion into contact, so some of that momentum will translate into the forward swing after contact. Focus on keeping the racket on edge as it approaches contact on the flatter serve. Feel free to send me a video...contact me through my website. Thanks, John
Excellent video. I have a question though: Is there a rule as to where the racket should end up, after we hit through the ball ? Sometimes it seems to me that it ends up next to the left thigh, sometimes more to the right side or middle of the body?
HI Erik, Thanks for your feedback and question. For most flat or slice serves, the finish is more likely to be across the body BUT be careful! The racquet only comes across at the bottom of the downswing. The idea that the follow-through is across the body is false! For topspin and kicks serves, the finish is more likely to stay on the side of the body. I hope this helps! Best, John
Thank you for your comments and kind feedback. Yes, the pronation is slightly delayed for the slice serve. The swing path for slice is very much the same as flat. Topspin or kick is a different swing path that is explained in other videos within my playlist. Best, John
Isn't it exagerated to keep the hitting arm vertical till the end of pronation after contact ? Seems to me the arm goes down slowly while pronating after contact and most of the time the arm is almost horizontal when pronation is fully over.
Hi and thanks for your great question and contribution to the video. Yes, it is exaggerated to keep the arm vertical, and for most players it is not possible. But, the intention to do so will produce the right movement for most. The serve of Pete Sampras is the best example of what we should be trying to achieve. Thanks, John
Hi Marc, Thanks for your questions. Yes, there are swing variations for different serves, but the foundation of skills is the same. Learn the foundation and then the variations are easy to implement! Please let me know if you have more questions. Thanks, John
I do great shadow swings, try swings from trophy position to make simpler with ball and get no racket drop in platform or very little, toss is good, bring back leg forward which gets my racket to drop nicely in shadow swing, very little drop, continental grip, with a relaxed grip, any suggestions 4.0 player
Hi John, Hard to know without seeing your serve. Suggestion: Correctly answer the question in the video we are releasing today (June 19 at 11am PST) and gain a free one-month membership which includes 2 video critiques by me. Or simply become a VIP member of Performance Plus for less than a $1 per day.
Hi Mike, Thanks for your great question and contribution to the video. Movement from the wrist is consequential, not deliberate. The wrist is a messenger of power that is created somewhere else. The wrist is a very mis-understood component of the serve. I hope this makes sense. Thanks, John
Hi Guillermo, Thanks for your comment and question. Pronation will occur on the kick and slice. With the slice, the pronation may be slight less because the rotation to contact is less pronounced. The kick also has pronation, due to the natural outward rotation of the shoulder after contact. I hope this makes sense. I will produce a video to clarify this in the near future.
GREAT TIPS, John!! Liking a flagpole with a racket face and keep the edge of racket AS LONG AS you can, absolutely they're big suggestions to me, and it make total sense although I've take pronation drills for a quite a long while. But I don't figure out why I got golf elbow injured in my practices, probably the big pressure to my elbow as I am trying to emphasize the pronation with more intentions, or push through with straight elbow like you mentioned that is wrong.....
Hi Jassay, Thanks for your comments. Best to go slow, be sure you are relaxed when practicing and learning new technique. For more assistance, check out our world renowned Serve Foundation Course (on our website) which features a complete skill development program and planner. It has helped 100's of students learn and develop a professional quality serve. Thanks!
You nailed me at the 8:00 mark. That’s me, I’ve done your basic course and I am so ready to take the next step which probably involves some! work...🤣 Thank you John!
Hi John loved your video on the serve. After having racquet straight back in the take back, pointing to the sky, I have noticed a big increase in power, in addition to following the other steps that lead to pronation. My only issue is that after hitting a basket of balls my lower latismus dorsi muscle tightened up quite a bit. Just wondered if this is normal when beginning a new way to serve, or if my technique is flawed in some way. If you have any suggestions I sure would appreciate your insight. Thanks
Hi James, Thanks for much for your comments and questions. Without seeing your serve, I really can't make any determination regarding your muscle issue. One thing to consider is my serve analysis program. Here are the details: performanceplustennis.com/serve-video-analysis-description/ Let me know if you have questions. Thanks, John
Hi, This is the foundational technique for the basic serve. Variations such as flat, slice and topspin are all developed from this fundamental skill. Kindly, John
The level of detail an the way you explain is a pleasure to watch. I am not sure how to apply this on a flat serve (first serve). My flat serve is like you described more towards the target with almost no pronation. I mean I have pronation because I aproach with the edge but than I flatten it out and I don't think I rotate my racket towards side fence. Should I try a flat serve with pronation? Or this applies only to kick serves?
Dan Botez Hi Dan, A lot of players do not pronate much beyond contact. In some cases, it is simply a matter of shoulder flexibility. In other cases, the server is reaching forward to try to add power, but this actually can deplete the racquet head speed.
Hi Dan, Just got home from a long day on the courts. I would not "force" the pronation after contact, but rather focus on keeping the upper arm up until the racket tip is beginning to point down to the court. This will assist in improving the action to get more racket head speed with less effort.
@@PerformancePlusTennisI was twice on the court since you so kindly took you time and answered my question. I think I am quite flexible to be able to bend my lower arm like that. I think I know where my problem is. I barely jump (more like Djokovic) from the gound during the serves and so I tend to serve more of a liniar trajectory rather than a linear and down type of movement. I am also not a John Isner to be able to easly get the ball over the net. How high should you jump?
Hi Dan, Jumping is not as important as good balance...it is the bi-product of good balance and leg drive. If you want, send me a video to look at and I will give you some advice. Contact me through my website. Thanks!
Would you pronate on every single type of serve: flat, slice and kick? Can it help you build up maximum arm/shoulder strength more rapidly to take full advantage if you have flowing proper serve motion already?
Hi, If you attack the ball with the racquet on edge, some degree of pronation must occur. If you have a flowing motion already, you may be able to improve racquet speed by assuring the pronation is happening into and beyond contact.
@@PerformancePlusTennis I do use pronation at the moment and it seems to be helping. Flat and slice are working. Kick is in the learning stages while I try not to tomahawk chop them into the court next to me. But they aren't fast enough to pressure the opponent unless I angle it off the court. They have alot of time to react to the serve presently. I've tested out the possibility that tension is a cause by free swinging for power without a target. There is almost no increase in racquet head speed, swing speed and resulting pace off the racquet in that experiment. I'm trying to gain strength by lifting but it hasn't gotten much in results so far. So it's just maximizing efficiency of swing technique for pace improvement?
@@jlook6070 Hi, Thanks for your detailed question. It sounds like you are not generating enough acceleration into the contact, which is slightly lower for a kick vs. a slice. It takes a well coordinated movement, starting with a properly timed leg drive, etc. to get the necessary speed into contact.
@@PerformancePlusTennis it's likely an acceleration issue but it seems I've maxed out my pace with technique efficiency (minus kick serve). My form does not lose momentum and is not janky. The arms have always been the literal weak point in the kinetic chain. Weight lifting has not really increased that muscle mass in any discernible way. I'm not sure what the cure is.
@@jlook6070 How about sending me a video? I will review and give you some feedback. You can send me a note through the contact page on my website. I will respond and then you can send it to me.Thanks, John
Good that you realize that you don't extend down the target line, but this misses that the contact still needs to be well in front of the baseline and even slightly in front the players 'up and out' launch into the court. Missing this is causing a slight but important misapplication of what many refer to as 'pronation'.
Falcon 4 Thanks for your comments. However, “Contact still needs to be well in front of the baseline” is not specific enough. Please review my video on the ideal contact point here on my channel. Thanks, John
@@PerformancePlusTennis specific enough for what? You can't be specific in how far in front because it will vary with several factors specific to players size, ability and quality of the launch up into the court. But my comments address how the technique in this video doesn't account for proper contact.
@@chtomlin Yeah, I agree there are variables here that are specific to the individual. However, regardless of size, ability, launch, etc. there is an ideal place in the swing to where optimum power and control can be achieved. The placement of the ball will vary for the style elements you mention, but ultimately the body position to contact does not vary much among high performance servers...I hope this makes sense. I appreciate your comments. Thanks, John
@@PerformancePlusTennis hi. At first i didnt have discomfort when i played but i didnt put in much power because i was just getting used to it. But the next time i played with more power then i started feeling a little discomfort in the left side of my elbow. However, i was using a different racquet given to me. But now im using my old racquet, i didnt feel anything. I was just curious if it normally happens. Thank you for your reply.
John - In this lesson, the instruction is for the strings to face the right-side fence. Therefore, does this lesson concern a ‘flat’ serve only? Are you a proponent of ‘kick’ and ‘slice’ serves to face the left-side fence?
@@PerformancePlusTennis Please do consider producing a follow-up video that addresses when strings are to face the right-side fence vs. left-side, or debunking the notion all together.
Hi John . Does the racket need to travel a bit linear and turn the wrist sideways OR turn the wrist sideways immediatly after impacting the ball? BTB Thanks for the video
Hi Sandy, The pronation past contact is the result of the motion into contact. To be clear, do not emphasize using the wrist / hand to turn the racket...the power of the movement originates somewhere else!
Hi Paul, not to worry! Stay relaxed, go slow, and develop the changes gradually. Check out our world renowned Serve Foundation Course (on our website) for complete instruction and a skill development planner. Thanks, John
Is the arm being pulled from the unwinding motion and racquet momentum from the ground or do consciously think about moving it. I guess what I am asking is the racquet being pulled or pushed.
rharrell1 This is a great question! My answer is you should neither pull or push the racquet...it should flow throw the motion as a result of the body movement (kinetic chain) that triggers a natural, fluid and relaxed swing. There is a key element that is the main catalyst to this movement, that literally no other coach has either figured out or presents online...
Thank you for answering my question. I have another one in regard to the kinetic chain. From what I understand the force from the ground moves up into the lower back. As the racquet accelerates up to the ball once the ball is touched is that when you release the power stored in the lower back, shoulder, and arm. It's the timing of the transition from the acceleration phase into using the energy generated from the ground to drive into the ball. I have heard some servers say it feels like the racquet wraps around the ball.
@@rharrell1 Interesting question. The lower back is a series of stable joints, so I have never considered the lower back to be more than stable, although it of course has mobility during the serve. More of the action is through the legs into the hips and through the torso. Regarding timing, the acceleration is "on to the ball", not once the ball is touched, although the intent to accelerate through contact is essential for max racquet head speed and velocity of the ball. I hope this helps!
I appreciate the time you took to answer my questions. You did a great job with the video one of the best I have seen explaining probably the most difficult skill to master in sports.
How do you know you pronate? If you lead the racket on edge and contact the ball with the strings, how can you not pronate? Pronation is a necessary effect of those two elements. If you cleave with an axe, would you lead square on through the air and then pronate to cleave for extra power? No, you lead on edge like with a racket and then you cleave on edge because you're cleaving. No pronation. I believe it's a misconception that pronation contributes to the power of a serve. It's merely a necessary consequence of leading on edge and striking with the strings. But I can be wrong as I'm not a pro tennis coach.
Thanks again John, so being that I definitely struggle with the segment at 8:00 mark..what you suggest is a slow-fast-slow cadence? I’ve been dumbing down my practice serve to just isolate this crucial part of the swing (right at contact). ruclips.net/video/FnQ9_jxg1j8/видео.html
Performance Plus Tennis not to pester you but what is the point of the second slow? I’ve heard a lot coaches just use, “slow-go!” but this is a bit unique adding the second slow. Just curious....
John nevermind, as watching again I think you explain it. I think it has to do with breaking the habit of not letting the racquet flip over after contact. Correct me if I’m wrong. Thanks John!!
@@vectorthurm Great question! When Tennisplayer did a detailed analyst of Pete Sampras's serve, they learned that his racquet peaked at 90mph into contact to produce a serve 120mph. His racquet accelerated out of the drop at 5mph, reached 90 mph at the top and slowed to 5mph by the time the racquet tip was pointing down to the court. Many players suffer from having the wrong tempo or rhythm in their swing, and we often see the racquet reach peak acceleration too late - when the racquet (and arm) are coming down. If the swing energy is upward (as it should be) then the racquet will naturally decelerate beyond the top of the swing. I hope you find this interesting and helpful. Kindly, John
Excellent video on the serve. Explained better than Macci or Mouratoglou. Simple, clear language.
Thank you so much! I hope you benefit from all the content here on the channel, and let me know if you have questions or a particular topic you want me to cover. Best, John
I’ve watched soooo many serve pronation videos and never heard it explained quite like this! Amazing video thank you!
Thanks Jeff! And thanks for subscribing! Stay tuned for more! Best, John
So far the best teacher/coach on the proper serve
Thank you so much, Gian! Kindly, John
John you are an amazing teacher!!
Thank you! I love helping players get the right information to improve! Have a great day!
A true eye-opener for people like me always pushing the right arm straight through and down! Thanks a lot.
You are welcome, Jo!
@K C Right on, KC!
From France...I know this tips of the rotation of the wrist when you hit the ball, but your explications and the slow motion, make the difference. Thanks a lot.
you are welcome, Moulin! Kindly, John
Found this wrist/elbow break out while finishing a 2 hour lonely serve practice a year ago. No POP ! on what was a decent serve. 5'8" tall( or short ! ) so serving , especially under pressure moments at this tall/ short is forever a shadowy presence.
Fatigue and the last 5 balls gave me a relaxed outlook. Tossed ball and concentrated on yanking that arm quickly down. Wham ! Ball expolded before I'd usually had time to track it. 3 more with similar timing gave a deeper ball but had a little rear up on it too. Last serve I framed due to inner joy and a feeling of eureka !.
This folks is GREAT ADVICE. It works and with less effort than the forced serve.
One added bonus also , I seemed to be in a better recovered position for the return. Thankyou ever so much for this video. I'm a subscriber now. Hwyl from Cymru ( Wales)
Thank you. Second time watching. This time I’m going to practice. A lot.
Cheers. Jeff
Hi Jeff, I love it when players benefit from my lessons...thank you! Keep me updated on your progress! If you are interested, I do offer video analysis, which has proven to be very helpful. Let me know. Best, John
Just gotta say that from 7:15-8:00 is where my journey lies. His is not a small thing. I appreciate you taking the time to break out these amazing small but crucial details. Thank you John!
Hi, Thank you so much for the comment. Keep working on it...you'll get it! Best, John
The 4:00 - 5:15 minute instruction is so critical and you made it so clear, thank you!
Thank you, Michael! Best, John
thank you for your lesson from korea 🇰🇷
You are welcome! Kindly, John
You are such a talented coach. Thank you :)
Thank you so much, Eileen! I hope you benefit from all the contact here on the channel, and reach out to me if I could ever help you further. Kindly, John
Rock solid video, John... BRAVO
Thanks Ramon!
Best ever serve advice I ever did see John!
JAG Thanks JAG!
the best information about pronation! thank you sir!
Thank you! Kindly,, John
Great tutorial. Thank you
Thanks for the feedback! Keep me updated on your serene progress! Best, John
Thank you, you explained the serve very well!
Thank you, John
Hi John, i just start playing tennis about 6 weeks ago, in my 50 is of age, searching how to.. how to.. in tennis and crossed path you video, love your explanation, nail it, simple yet detail how to… wish you come down here in australia to couch me he he he… if you dont mind like to know 1 hand backhand spin. Cheers john, love it.
Hi Dhinno, Thanks for the great feedback! Be sure to check out my backhand lessons here on the channel. You can also get this course which includes videos reviews by me to guide you: performanceplustennis.com/one-handed-topspin-backhand-foundation-description/. Kindly, John
Great tips sir !! appreciate that !
Thank you, Leonardo! Glad the lesson was helpful to you! Best, John
these are great tips that i want to train
Thanks Jonathan. Keep me updated on your progress. Kindly, John
Dear John Sir,
Namaste i have searched more then two days for this type of lesson ........ thank you really good Guidance ... Thank You Sir..........A Fan From INDIA...
Hi Vikram, Thanks for your kind comment. I am glad you found me. Stay tuned for more videos. Thanks , John
Excellent advice. Thank you.
Hi Frank, You are very welcome! Keep me updated on your progress! Thanks, John
Great explanation on how to pronate. Thank so much.
Thank you, Vinh! Kindly, John
This video was very useful for me to practice fundamentals in a slow and deliberate motion; hopefully to build muscle memory.
Hi, Thanks for your feedback, Keep me updated on your progress. Best, John
Awesome instruction! I'll update you on my progress.
Terrific, thanks! Kindly, John
Excellent tips, and excellent videos
As always: excellent 👌
Thank you so much 😀
Excellent tutorial. Made big improvement to my serve accuracy and consistency.
Thank you, Carlton!
I did really enjoy and I benefited from your excellent detailed instruction-- thanks
Thank you, George!
One of the most overlooked aspects that are not thought even at intermediate and advance levels. Thanks for the video. It took me like 20 years to finally learn to pronate 😳
MAELOB Thanks and stay tuned for more from PPT!
Great video, very helpful...and educational....Thanks!
Thanks Alex!
High John nice to see you, good day always 🎾
John, amazing lesson!
Thank you so much, Oscar! Kindly, John
Tyvm...
You are welcome!
Very detailed! Thank you
Thanks Kirk! Kindly, John
One of the reasons this is hard for ordinary tennis players is because visually, it doesn't seem to be ergonomic or doesn't follow the natural flow of the arm and wrist when you're trying to impart a specific spin like a slice or twist. Does this apply only for flat serves?
Am trying to wrap my head around how the pronation happens after imparting a spin that causes the wrist to rotate contrary to the direction of the suggested pronation...
I hope they can show it in super slow motion.
Hi Zandz, Thanks for your comments and contribution to the video/ lesson. The concept of pronation occurs with every type of serve because the shoulder has to deliver the racquet, and the end result is long-axis rotation from the shoulder out to the right for a right handed player. Yes, the path of the racquet differs from each type of serve (spin), but pronation will is a component regardless of the spin. I hope this hopes. Don't over think it, and keep me updated on your progress. thanks, John
This really helped my game.
Great to hear, Bob! Stay tuned for our video on Friday, which is a follow-up to this video. Thanks, John
Very useful video. Oftentimes I slice the ball instead of hitting it flat
Thanks Irwin! Best, John
Thank you very much. Awesome vídeo. I'll try as soon as I can get into a tennis court
bailadorr Thank you!
Great video John! This was an eye popping revelation. Also we always hear about pronation being a natural motion and that we shouldn't force it into the swing path. How do you find the right balance then? Thanks very much, John
Hi Phillippe, Thanks for your comments and great question! I think the answer is it depends on your style and mobility. We see someone like Federer, who is so natural and unforced vs players that appear so deliberate in creating their pronation, particularly after contact. Good examples go back to Sampras, Becker, Raonic and Nadal...just to name a few. These players all keep the upper arm (shoulder) up until the racquet tip is pointing to the ground. This intention produces maximum pronation. However, my friend Jeff Salzenstein says he never thought about pronation when he was on the ATP tour. So, what is the answer? Experiment. Be purposeful, but also relaxed and natural. A lack of relaxation is the biggest power leak on the serve and also leads to a greater potential for injury. Stay tuned. I am going to post a video this week that I KNOW will be of interest to you.Thanks and take care, John
@@PerformancePlusTennis Thanks very much for your reply John I really appreciate it! It really feels like looking for the Holy Grail sometimes. Haha
Excellent video!
Thanks Adrian! Stay tuned for more content! Best, John
excellent advice and explanation on pronation. Like the serve exercises too.
Thank you Patrick! Stay tuned for our latest videos! Kindly, John
@@PerformancePlusTennis Hi Have subscribed to your channel so will not miss a video. Have started to use your advice in my serve training and it has already started to make a difference in the power of my serve. Just need to keep practicing to do it more consistently.
Thanks a million, this has been an eye opener for me
Thanks Dayle. Keep me updated on your progress. Kindly, John
I worked on it today on my home court in Barbados. It has worked for me. I will be watching more of your videos.I am working on my one hand backhand next
@@daylehaynes2792 That's terrific to know, Dayle! Docheck out my backhand lessons on the channel. Keep me updated! Best, John
Great video - thanks for the share
Obaid Farghani Thanks Obaid. Stay tuned for more! Kindly, John
Very well explained, the visuals are awesome
Thanks for watching, glad the visuals were helpful!
Any video ideas you would like for us to make in the future?
John
So good
Thank you, so much! Kindly, John
Great explanation!
peter cheng Thank you, Peter! Kindly, John
I appreciate the details. Now maybe I can give my wife a little more competition when I make these adjustments 👍🏽
Let me know how it goes! Thanks, John
8:30-8:40 is a key thought Great video John
Thanks for marking that. No bigger room in the world than the one for improvement-where I live 🙂
Great Lesson!
Thanks Robert! Welcome to Performance Plus! Kindly, John
good stuff
Thanks Jack!
Thx u
You are welcome! Best, John
Thank you , great advice !!!
Thanks Brice! Best, John
Best explanation ever
Thank you! John
Do we have different pronation for different serve? How we pronate in flat serve, slice serve or kick serve?
Hi Pearl, Thanks for your question. For sure the degree of pronation varies for flat, vs slice and topspin. Flat and slice are very similar. Topspin is quite a different racquet path up and into the ball, and the pronation is not as pronounced into contact. Best, John
I found that comparing the serve motion to throwing a football vs a baseball especially if you're throwing it long works better for me, In baseball your target is between the ankles and the chest whereas you're aim in football is a lot higher and the ball rolls off your fingers which replicates the pronation. I also think of throwing a javelin or hatchet similar to throwing upwards more and keeping the edge of the racket moving towards the ball longer. What do you think? Great video though.
Hi, Thanks for your comments. I think the release of a football is generally closer to the serve motion, but still needs the 45 degree angle in the shoulders to throw from. Also, the contact on the serve is where the extension occurs. In the case of throwing a ball, the arm / elbow is not extended upon release. Finally, I think the hatchet is a better analogy than the javelin, as the javelin is thrown with a nearly straight arm throughout the forward motion...quite a bit different than the serve motion. Thanks, John
Hi .What is Your conception about using a gravity and right racquate balance in serve ? Like your video also. Thank You.
Hi Demetri, I am sorry, but I don't fully understand your question. Please re-phrase and let me know. Thanks, John
Excellent, friend!!!
Thank you, Eduardo! Kindly, John
I’m an intermediate player in my 60’s. I have never used pronation in my serve. I would need to practice this a lot. I do the opposite motion finishing with supination of my service stroke. My shoulder does seem flexible enough to learn this, however.
Thanks for your comment. Pronation can only be performed in conjunction with the continental grip. If you have a forehand grip, or anything close, the movement of pronation will not work. Do check your shoulder flexibility and go SUPER SLOW to get the feel of the movement. Finally, supination can naturally occur on the finish (when finishing across the waist). Stay tuned!
Thanks John for this excellent explanation! I have trained this for quite some time and still didn't get rid of the old wrong arm motion, which you mentioned shortly in about minute 8:26. I would appreciate if you put more attention to this wrong arm motion since I see that all of the players in our club do this! And I would appreciate if you could give some hints on how to correct this. In slow motion I can do exactly what you show, also when I serve without power. But when I want to put power into my serve, the old wrong arm motion is there again!
Hi Sony, Thanks for the comments and feedback. It is not unusual for the swing pattern to change somewhat when you go for a powerful (flatter) serve, as you are taking a lot of forward motion into contact, so some of that momentum will translate into the forward swing after contact. Focus on keeping the racket on edge as it approaches contact on the flatter serve. Feel free to send me a video...contact me through my website. Thanks, John
EXCELLENT ANALYSIS JOHN! I WILL TRY THAT! 👍👍👏👏👏🎾🎾🎾
Thanks Jose! Let me know how your motion is developing.
thanks from holland very good eplanation
Nice video. It would have been nicer if you had aaded the follow thru path of racquet even for 2nd serve also.
Hi Pramod, Thank you! Check my other serve video for more details on the follow thru path. Best, John ruclips.net/video/kgnNhpankqc/видео.html B
Excellent video. I have a question though: Is there a rule as to where the racket should end up, after we hit through the ball ? Sometimes it seems to me that it ends up next to the left thigh, sometimes more to the right side or middle of the body?
HI Erik, Thanks for your feedback and question. For most flat or slice serves, the finish is more likely to be across the body BUT be careful! The racquet only comes across at the bottom of the downswing. The idea that the follow-through is across the body is false! For topspin and kicks serves, the finish is more likely to stay on the side of the body. I hope this helps! Best, John
Thanks so much, I just finally cracked the code with this video by practicing in my mind.
Thanks for watching, glad the video was helpful!
Any video ideas you would like for us to make?
John
this will help me greatly!!! I actually hurt my shoulder by trying to move too fast too soon.
Great! Please let me know how this lesson helps you. Thanks, John
I really enjoy your teaching videos. Is pronation delayed when doing a slice serve or kick serve? And there is obviously a different path? 10:56
Thank you for your comments and kind feedback. Yes, the pronation is slightly delayed for the slice serve. The swing path for slice is very much the same as flat. Topspin or kick is a different swing path that is explained in other videos within my playlist. Best, John
Nice lesson, 👏👏👏
Good sir
Thank you, Ashish! Kindly, John
This is THE serve lesson! Been trying for 50 years to crack the code. Thank you very much, John, M'kay?
Thanks for the great comment...glad the lesson is helpful to you!
This is very good
Thank you, Dimesh!
good job!
Great tip! Thanks, mister. One suggestion: all of that you said and showed could stay in a 5- minute video.
Thanks Daniel! Best, John
Isn't it exagerated to keep the hitting arm vertical till the end of pronation after contact ? Seems to me the arm goes down slowly while pronating after contact and most of the time the arm is almost horizontal when pronation is fully over.
Hi and thanks for your great question and contribution to the video. Yes, it is exaggerated to keep the arm vertical, and for most players it is not possible. But, the intention to do so will produce the right movement for most. The serve of Pete Sampras is the best example of what we should be trying to achieve. Thanks, John
Good
Thanks Giuseppe! Best, John
Great tips here John. What drills would you recommend to work on the racket drop and improve the ball toss?
Thanks!
Hi Grant, Check out our playlist for the serve for lessons on the racket drop and ball placement: ruclips.net/p/PLEd-bhJ7w1qmIjymwE2iH1Aq6vF3xLRJi
Same motion for slice and kick serve? This pronation creates strain on my elbow?
Hi Marc, Thanks for your questions. Yes, there are swing variations for different serves, but the foundation of skills is the same. Learn the foundation and then the variations are easy to implement! Please let me know if you have more questions. Thanks, John
I do great shadow swings, try swings from trophy position to make simpler with ball and get no racket drop in platform or very little, toss is good, bring back leg forward which gets my racket to drop nicely in shadow swing, very little drop, continental grip, with a relaxed grip, any suggestions 4.0 player
Hi John, Hard to know without seeing your serve. Suggestion: Correctly answer the question in the video we are releasing today (June 19 at 11am PST) and gain a free one-month membership which includes 2 video critiques by me. Or simply become a VIP member of Performance Plus for less than a $1 per day.
Lying in bed feeling sick. Can’t wait to go through your step by step. Thanks for great explanation
Hi Anita, You are welcome! I hope you feel better soon and can get back on the courts. Kindly, John
how much wrist action do you use
Hi Mike, Thanks for your great question and contribution to the video. Movement from the wrist is consequential, not deliberate. The wrist is a messenger of power that is created somewhere else. The wrist is a very mis-understood component of the serve. I hope this makes sense. Thanks, John
Very good explanation! Sorry for my english.
What happend with the pronation when I want to serve with a kick or slice?
Hi Guillermo, Thanks for your comment and question. Pronation will occur on the kick and slice. With the slice, the pronation may be slight less because the rotation to contact is less pronounced. The kick also has pronation, due to the natural outward rotation of the shoulder after contact. I hope this makes sense. I will produce a video to clarify this in the near future.
GREAT TIPS, John!! Liking a flagpole with a racket face and keep the edge of racket AS LONG AS you can, absolutely they're big suggestions to me, and it make total sense although I've take pronation drills for a quite a long while.
But I don't figure out why I got golf elbow injured in my practices, probably the big pressure to my elbow as I am trying to emphasize the pronation with more intentions, or push through with straight elbow like you mentioned that is wrong.....
Hi Jassay, Thanks for your comments. Best to go slow, be sure you are relaxed when practicing and learning new technique. For more assistance, check out our world renowned Serve Foundation Course (on our website) which features a complete skill development program and planner. It has helped 100's of students learn and develop a professional quality serve. Thanks!
And how does that apply on the second serve? can you break it down in another video?
Hi Jose, Great question, and I will break it down in a future video!
Is there anything as such “natural shoulder rotation”? Isn’t this something you can train and improve?
Yes, there is nataral shoulder rotation, but you can certainly train and improve the shoulder / long axis rotation! Best, John
You nailed me at the 8:00 mark. That’s me, I’ve done your basic course and I am so ready to take the next step which probably involves some! work...🤣
Thank you John!
Thank you so much! Kindly, John
Hi John loved your video on the serve. After having racquet straight back in the take back, pointing to the sky, I have noticed a big increase in power, in addition to following the other steps that lead to pronation. My only issue is that after hitting a basket of balls my lower latismus dorsi muscle tightened up quite a bit. Just wondered if this is normal when beginning a new way to serve, or if my technique is flawed in some way. If you have any suggestions I sure would appreciate your insight. Thanks
Hi James, Thanks for much for your comments and questions. Without seeing your serve, I really can't make any determination regarding your muscle issue. One thing to consider is my serve analysis program. Here are the details: performanceplustennis.com/serve-video-analysis-description/ Let me know if you have questions. Thanks, John
is this a flat serve?
Hi, This is the foundational technique for the basic serve. Variations such as flat, slice and topspin are all developed from this fundamental skill. Kindly, John
The level of detail an the way you explain is a pleasure to watch. I am not sure how to apply this on a flat serve (first serve). My flat serve is like you described more towards the target with almost no pronation. I mean I have pronation because I aproach with the edge but than I flatten it out and I don't think I rotate my racket towards side fence. Should I try a flat serve with pronation? Or this applies only to kick serves?
Dan Botez Hi Dan, A lot of players do not pronate much beyond contact. In some cases, it is simply a matter of shoulder flexibility. In other cases, the server is reaching forward to try to add power, but this actually can deplete the racquet head speed.
Hi Dan, Just got home from a long day on the courts. I would not "force" the pronation after contact, but rather focus on keeping the upper arm up until the racket tip is beginning to point down to the court. This will assist in improving the action to get more racket head speed with less effort.
@@PerformancePlusTennisI was twice on the court since you so kindly took you time and answered my question. I think I am quite flexible to be able to bend my lower arm like that. I think I know where my problem is. I barely jump (more like Djokovic) from the gound during the serves and so I tend to serve more of a liniar trajectory rather than a linear and down type of movement. I am also not a John Isner to be able to easly get the ball over the net. How high should you jump?
Hi Dan, Jumping is not as important as good balance...it is the bi-product of good balance and leg drive. If you want, send me a video to look at and I will give you some advice. Contact me through my website. Thanks!
Would you pronate on every single type of serve: flat, slice and kick? Can it help you build up maximum arm/shoulder strength more rapidly to take full advantage if you have flowing proper serve motion already?
Hi, If you attack the ball with the racquet on edge, some degree of pronation must occur. If you have a flowing motion already, you may be able to improve racquet speed by assuring the pronation is happening into and beyond contact.
@@PerformancePlusTennis I do use pronation at the moment and it seems to be helping. Flat and slice are working. Kick is in the learning stages while I try not to tomahawk chop them into the court next to me. But they aren't fast enough to pressure the opponent unless I angle it off the court. They have alot of time to react to the serve presently. I've tested out the possibility that tension is a cause by free swinging for power without a target. There is almost no increase in racquet head speed, swing speed and resulting pace off the racquet in that experiment. I'm trying to gain strength by lifting but it hasn't gotten much in results so far. So it's just maximizing efficiency of swing technique for pace improvement?
@@jlook6070 Hi, Thanks for your detailed question. It sounds like you are not generating enough acceleration into the contact, which is slightly lower for a kick vs. a slice. It takes a well coordinated movement, starting with a properly timed leg drive, etc. to get the necessary speed into contact.
@@PerformancePlusTennis it's likely an acceleration issue but it seems I've maxed out my pace with technique efficiency (minus kick serve). My form does not lose momentum and is not janky. The arms have always been the literal weak point in the kinetic chain. Weight lifting has not really increased that muscle mass in any discernible way. I'm not sure what the cure is.
@@jlook6070 How about sending me a video? I will review and give you some feedback. You can send me a note through the contact page on my website. I will respond and then you can send it to me.Thanks, John
Good that you realize that you don't extend down the target line, but this misses that the contact still needs to be well in front of the baseline and even slightly in front the players 'up and out' launch into the court. Missing this is causing a slight but important misapplication of what many refer to as 'pronation'.
Falcon 4 Thanks for your comments. However, “Contact still needs to be well in front of the baseline” is not specific enough. Please review my video on the ideal contact point here on my channel. Thanks, John
@@PerformancePlusTennis specific enough for what? You can't be specific in how far in front because it will vary with several factors specific to players size, ability and quality of the launch up into the court. But my comments address how the technique in this video doesn't account for proper contact.
@@chtomlin Yeah, I agree there are variables here that are specific to the individual. However, regardless of size, ability, launch, etc. there is an ideal place in the swing to where optimum power and control can be achieved. The placement of the ball will vary for the style elements you mention, but ultimately the body position to contact does not vary much among high performance servers...I hope this makes sense. I appreciate your comments. Thanks, John
Is it normal to have discomfort on your elbow when you first try pronation on your serve?
Peej Read Hi Peej, I don’t think any pain is normal..make sure you are very relaxed and go slow. Keep me updated. Thanks!
@@PerformancePlusTennis hi. At first i didnt have discomfort when i played but i didnt put in much power because i was just getting used to it. But the next time i played with more power then i started feeling a little discomfort in the left side of my elbow. However, i was using a different racquet given to me. But now im using my old racquet, i didnt feel anything. I was just curious if it normally happens. Thank you for your reply.
@@peejread2309 Glad to know it was nothing serious!
To day after your video I have just praticed but Igot stretching the right pectoral muscle:I do not do the right actiom
John - In this lesson, the instruction is for the strings to face the right-side fence. Therefore, does this lesson concern a ‘flat’ serve only? Are you a proponent of ‘kick’ and ‘slice’ serves to face the left-side fence?
David Kim Hi David, Great question. At this point in the motion, you can play any type of spin, so it is not just for flat serves.
@@PerformancePlusTennis Please do consider producing a follow-up video that addresses when strings are to face the right-side fence vs. left-side, or debunking the notion all together.
@@davidkim8134 OK, thanks David!
Hi John . Does the racket need to travel a bit linear and turn the wrist sideways OR turn the wrist sideways immediatly after impacting the ball?
BTB Thanks for the video
Hi Sandy, The pronation past contact is the result of the motion into contact. To be clear, do not emphasize using the wrist / hand to turn the racket...the power of the movement originates somewhere else!
Are you ready to take your serve to the next level? Check out our serve course here performanceplustennis.com/serve-foundation-description/ 💥🎾
Shit, so I've been serving it all wrong for 20 years now.
Hi Paul, not to worry! Stay relaxed, go slow, and develop the changes gradually. Check out our world renowned Serve Foundation Course (on our website) for complete instruction and a skill development planner. Thanks, John
Is the arm being pulled from the unwinding motion and racquet momentum from the ground or do consciously think about moving it. I guess what I am asking is the racquet being pulled or pushed.
rharrell1 This is a great question! My answer is you should neither pull or push the racquet...it should flow throw the motion as a result of the body movement (kinetic chain) that triggers a natural, fluid and relaxed swing. There is a key element that is the main catalyst to this movement, that literally no other coach has either figured out or presents online...
Thank you for answering my question. I have another one in regard to the kinetic chain. From what I understand the force from the ground moves up into the lower back. As the racquet accelerates up to the ball once the ball is touched is that when you release the power stored in the lower back, shoulder, and arm. It's the timing of the transition from the acceleration phase into using the energy generated from the ground to drive into the ball. I have heard some servers say it feels like the racquet wraps around the ball.
@@rharrell1 Interesting question. The lower back is a series of stable joints, so I have never considered the lower back to be more than stable, although it of course has mobility during the serve. More of the action is through the legs into the hips and through the torso. Regarding timing, the acceleration is "on to the ball", not once the ball is touched, although the intent to accelerate through contact is essential for max racquet head speed and velocity of the ball. I hope this helps!
I appreciate the time you took to answer my questions. You did a great job with the video one of the best I have seen explaining probably the most difficult skill to master in sports.
@@rharrell1 My pleasure....thank you!
Thanks u, and is that only used for 2nd serve?
Hi, No, pronation is a necessary feature of every serve. Thanks, John
Ngoc LeMinh bạn chơi Tennis ở đâu?
Allim hi friend, hanoi Vietnam
Performance Plus Tennis Thanks u, I understand and improve well now.
How do you know you pronate? If you lead the racket on edge and contact the ball with the strings, how can you not pronate? Pronation is a necessary effect of those two elements.
If you cleave with an axe, would you lead square on through the air and then pronate to cleave for extra power? No, you lead on edge like with a racket and then you cleave on edge because you're cleaving. No pronation.
I believe it's a misconception that pronation contributes to the power of a serve. It's merely a necessary consequence of leading on edge and striking with the strings. But I can be wrong as I'm not a pro tennis coach.
Thanks again John, so being that I definitely struggle with the segment at 8:00 mark..what you suggest is a slow-fast-slow cadence? I’ve been dumbing down my practice serve to just isolate this crucial part of the swing (right at contact). ruclips.net/video/FnQ9_jxg1j8/видео.html
Yes, think "slow-quick-slow". Quick is into contact. Let me know how you are doing with the concept.
Thanks, John
Performance Plus Tennis not to pester you but what is the point of the second slow? I’ve heard a lot coaches just use, “slow-go!” but this is a bit unique adding the second slow. Just curious....
John nevermind, as watching again I think you explain it. I think it has to do with breaking the habit of not letting the racquet flip over after contact. Correct me if I’m wrong. Thanks John!!
@@vectorthurm Great question! When Tennisplayer did a detailed analyst of Pete Sampras's serve, they learned that his racquet peaked at 90mph into contact to produce a serve 120mph. His racquet accelerated out of the drop at 5mph, reached 90 mph at the top and slowed to 5mph by the time the racquet tip was pointing down to the court. Many players suffer from having the wrong tempo or rhythm in their swing, and we often see the racquet reach peak acceleration too late - when the racquet (and arm) are coming down. If the swing energy is upward (as it should be) then the racquet will naturally decelerate beyond the top of the swing. I hope you find this interesting and helpful. Kindly, John
Performance Plus Tennis I find it extremely interesting and helpful..thank you!