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Bethinking 5/6: William Lane Craig on Secularism & Islam (The Apologetic Task)
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- Опубликовано: 22 фев 2013
- The Bethinking National Apologetics Day Conference: "Countering the New Atheism" took place during the UK Reasonable Faith Tour in October 2011. Christian academics William Lane Craig, John Lennox, Peter J Williams and Gary Habermas lead 600 people in training for how to defend and proclaim the credibility of Christianity against the growing tide of secularism and New Atheist popular thought in western society.
In this session (Part 5), William Lane Craig closes the conference by addressing the challenges faced by the UK Church, from both the rise of secularism and the spread of Islam, arguing that apologetics must be front and centre to ensure the church's survival.
For more information please visit:
www.bethinking....
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Time Stamps
*The Talk* 0:36
1:07 Introduction: Purpose of his talk tonight. (The challenge that lies before us and the role of apologetics in the church)
1:26 The problem of the Church
2:15 The Left: Secularism. A summary and brief Definition
3:25 The Left: Secularism. History
4:49 The Left: Secularism. Why is this History Important?
6:12 The Left: Secularism. How should we approach the left? 6:44 A quote
7:20 The Left: Secularism. The primary target/focus of the approach: The university. 8:20
8:34 The Left: Secularism. This is not impossible as it may seem.
9:32 The Left: Secularism. The approach summarized again.
10:04 The Left: Secularism. Isn't the left, postmodern? Where arguments of reason and logic no longer is accepted?
10:40 The Left: Secularism. The response to the postmodern assertion: No way! No one can be truly, 100% postmodern.
12:12 The Left: Secularism. The response to the postmodern assertion: Craig asserts the craftiness of the postmodern assertion is subtle, like satan. Approaching the left from a postmordern approach is figuratively, suicide.
13:41 The Left: Secularism. The response to the postmodern assertion: Personal examples of how students are actually the opposite and enjoy and genuinely engaged in logic and reason.
19:38 13:41 The Left: Secularism. The response to the postmodern assertion: Conclusion: Dont be deceived by this assertion
20:09 The Right: Islam. Introduction.
21:13 The Right: Islam. Islamic Beliefs, and it's differences and opposition to Christian beliefs.
22:10
22:18 The Right: Islam. A History and it's impact
23:10 The Right: Islam. The problem: Secularism lacks the spiritual substance for dealing with Islam. In fact, it produces a spiritual vacuum that Islam seem to fill easily.
23:27 The Right: Islam. The problem: Secularism can only respond with draconion political measures.
24:09 The Right: Islam. *The solution*: A storng, Vibrant, Widely shared faith with spiritual truth with no attraction to Islam. The church seems to be asleep, either due to intimidation or political correctness. To share our faith is to love others, to be silent is unloving. (I would like to add that sharing our faith is direct, faithful obedience to 1 Peter 3:15).
25:08 The Right: Islam. The Solution: The role of appologetics. It isn't difficult to do! Just talk about Jesus.
26:35 The Right: Islam. The Islamic concept of God is deficient. Islam can be justifiably criticismed for its morialy inadequate concept of God. '"god" loves not...' The muslim "god" is not all loving. This "god's" love is partial and has to be earned.
28:45 The Right: Islam. The solution: The church must not be silent on this false theism (and another gospel!). The church should be like Paul and opposed it unflinchingly.
29:33 The Right: Islam. The solution: The church has something better to offer, the gospel! (The good news!)
29:51 Conclusion: The Church is challenged on both sides... But we are not lacking in equipment.
*The Q & A* 30:59
31:24 Question 1: Why is the judeo-Christian West been more secularized than the Islamic Middle East?
31:47 Answer: The West is the stepchild of the Enlightenment, and rejects the monarchy and church to adopt reason and logic, almost as the new "god". It is not the intelligencia but the working classes that lacks faith in Christ.
34:35 Question 2: God loves sinners but the bible also talks about how God hates sinners as well. In light of the Islamic "god" which hates sinners so partially, is God any different?
36:42 Question 3: Should Christians refer to Islamic deity as God?
41:26 Question 4: Should we deal with the Left the same way to the Right? Should we challenge mohammud?
44:14 Question 4.5: How would you move a friend (who grants you the existence and deity of Jesus), to a position of salvation?
45:16 Question 5: Is post-modernism the offspring of naturalism? (Evangelic strategy: WLC thinks it is very unwise to attack Darwinism and we should set the metaphorical bar as low as possible so that can come to saving faith of Christ. Other questions can be discussed in detail in house or at a later time.)
48:50 Question 6: People say: "God has failed and human love is the answer to all problems." How do we address violence to demonstrate God's love? (I think this is almost a question of evil question.)
51:18 Question 7: What is the best way to let the Church leadership know that apologetic is the way to go?
51:33 Answer 7: The wrong appoach is to give the pastor another burden. The right approach is to take that responsibility and teach it yourself or give some sort of support in this venture. If teaching apologetics is too hard, WLC has a defenders class videos.
53:35 Question 8: How do we let Church leadership see the importance of apologetics? Some Church leadership see it as a path to doubt.
53:51 Answer 8: 1) Share stats of how many youth leave the church, upon colleage. 2) Bring a person who got lost and was brought back on apologetics, who logically and reasonabily saw the evidence of the faith.
55:47 Question 9: If someone does not believe in a historical Adam, how do we share the gospel?
57:22 Fin
*End* 57:40
I was a Muslim and as a Muslim I was spiritual blind, but now I can see through Christ Jesus ✝️❤️
God bless you
Amen brother! May God bless you!
I just want a single reason to choose Islam over christianity. As far as I've seen, there is no single reason that a person can say leaves Islam for that a more extreme version can be said about christianity.
@@MegaMoh uhh what?
@@menknurlan meaning: christianity has no evidence that it's from God and if it does then Islam has a stronger evidence of that same type and Islam has more.
This was a delightful talk. I especially loved how Craig, as an afterthought, brought up his own website's Defender lessons as an answer to what to do to introduce Christian Apologetics to churches. I also thought it was a wise answer he gave regarding Darwinism and Islam, to speak reasonably with evidence for Jesus, His ministry, life, death and resurrection to change the hearts and minds of curious--even skeptical--people, rather than trying to pick apart their belief systems, from an evangelistic standpoint. Of course, I tend to take everything two or more steps too far, thus my record, as I understand it, still stands at zero converts to Christ.
Good stuff. Thanks for stopping by, Dr Craig. I really hope younger people watching this go to their pastors, priests, ministers, reverends, etc... and launch an apologetic class.
I'd recommend investing in a projector, a laptop and a sound system - watching apologists like Ravi Zacharias, John Lennox, Timothy Keller, William Lane Craig, or whoever you know to be interesting - and then discuss the ideas openly, and perhaps get a hold of some of their published works and reflect upon them too.
God bless you for this brilliant idea
God bless William Craig and his ministry and the committe that conductbthis event. Love from indonesia
I LIKE AND ADMIRE W. L. CRAIG HE USES HIS INTELLIGENT MIND FOR THE GLORY OF GOD , UNLIKE GODLESS EVOLUTIONISTS/SCIENTISTS WHO USE THEIRS FOR THEIR OWN GLORY
BLUEBIRD but WLC agrees with evolution and science. He knows they're reasonable. He just says they also have theological implications
Which they do. What BLUEBIRD is getting at is secular humanist science and a priori atheist science, which seek to make science conform to an agenda rather than faithfully representing what the data itself can say.
"Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I WILL PRESERVE THEE,AND GIVE THEE FOR A COVENANT TO THE PEOPLE , to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;" --Isaiah 49:8
" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."--John 3:16
That is all that His Father required from all mankind who desire to live eternally
Zion...@LLOVE! you have many, many, many, many, brothers and sisters are ONE WITH YOU. kings and priests you are to me. Who is worth respecting, honoring, loving, and giving my life for a friend kind of love. Indeed. For God ALMIGHTY revealed JESUS indeed.
I much enjoyed this. However, Dr. Craig said in the thesis of his talk that he was going to address impediments on the right as well as the left. He really only discussed the left and Islam. I would like to hear him discuss the harsh American "Christian" political conservatism that is driving so many young people away from the church in the U.S. Popular conservative ministers publicly excoriate their brothers and sisters, showing zero tenderness or forgiveness for them...rather, they're competitive and seek to protect their "market share" among the faithful. They build arguments for why it's okay to ignore systemic injustices that perpetuate poverty, racism, misogyny, and xenophobia. Please see Isaiah 58:1-14; Matthew 25:31-46; James 1:27, which only a few evangelicals ever touch on (Tim Keller comes to mind, and of course he has been derided as a "socialist"). They preach American exceptionalism, militarism, American "flag-ism", capitalism and "America First-ism"...this seems idolatrous because it is. You just can't be America-centered and Christ-centered at the same time. Don't even get me started on the extra-biblical emphases on issues that Jesus never mentioned! Everyone wants the 10 Commandments posted in the public square, but if you suggest that the Beatitudes would perhaps be more appropriate to develop the Christian nation they seek...well, their eyes glaze over. Evangelicals vote for the nastiest reprobate sinners imaginable while describing those who disagree with them politically as "evil". Also, there has been more than one study to confirm egregious Biblical illiteracy among self-described evangelicals.
Yeah... so much for the value of having a great Christian nation. Perhaps if America were not so religious it might actually be better off...
So how is Islam's view on salvation (good deeds plus faith) different from Catholicism (good deeds plus faith)?
To my understanding, in Islam, you do good deeds in the mere hope that Allah will choose to accept you into paradise. Even if the good far outweighs the bad, Allah can still, for whatever reason, choose to send you into hell.
In catholicism, and in Christianity overall, God's grace has been freely given to you by Christ's death and resurrection. Your debt of sin has already been paid in full by Jesus' blood. No good deed you do can get you into Heaven. Period.
That said, good deeds are done as a natural outworking of that grace. You perform good works as an act of thanksgiving with everything you do.
Tl:Dr - Islam: You do good deeds to get in paradise, (hopefully).
Christianity: You do good deeds BECAUSE you have already been accepted into Heaven.
To some...if I get married. This is what I want you to do. By works! I want my food certain ways, if not you can't go to the promise or true kingdom of God. The wife will say, I'm not perfect, I make mistakes? How can I keep up? True Muslims can be one with the true Christians indeed. @LLOVE
I think this is very important for the current generation of Christians and the generations to come. It is sad to say but your average atheist knows more about the Bible than your average Christian. It is time for that to change!
I think what christianity has become today is not the same teachings of jesus and early christians a lot of changes occurred along the way
Bro 99.9% of today Bible is God word from what we got from history with proof. Can you look up the quran and see if it's truly preserve? Don't listen to your imam do your own research first. Pls
I know this is a few months late, but I'd also like to add that there is a 3rd group. This is the group of atheists who are atheists because it's the "cool" thing to be. They are the younger generation and usually have little to no knowledge of the Bible and hardly any knowledge of recent or ancient history.
He who is fixed to a star does not change his mind.
© Leonardo da Vinci
What's the song that's played for the the intro?
The main difference would be Jesus.
good deeds plus faith plus accepting Jesus as one's personal savior.
If you ever meet a ghost you will find that to be good evidence for the existence of ghosts. In the same way, if you actually seek God instead of looking for the evidence of His existence, He will reveal Himself to you, in fact He promises to do just that.
They know enough to criticize God, but they seem to lack any desire to have God's actions explained, which in fact the text itself does. I think they only know what set arguments are invented by the one at the top (Dawkins/Hitchens/Harris/Dennett)
I disagree with Craig on evangelism that avoids Darwinism. Darwinism is a huge barrier. If they operate on an evolutionary platform (which points to atheistic naturalism) they will see no need for the gospel because there are serious implications in darwinism regarding one's view of sin and redemption. How can you get to Jesus and the gospel without deconstructing one's view concerning these things?
I absolutely agree. This is the one area where, not only Craig fails repeatedly in his debates, but also most other well known Christian apologists today. Although I greatly appreciate and admire his work.
I definitely appreciate Craig's work in general as an apologist but this as well as his promotion of molinism are not helpful in my opinion.
Yes, I feel he tries to toe the line of what is accepted as "settled science" in order to appeal to the scientific audience. I do not see Christianity compatible in any way with Darwinian dogma.
I feel you have missed a fundamental difference. Evolutionary Darwinism, as in evolution, is not a problem for the Christian faith. Where as, Evolutionary Darwinism, as an origin, is not even science. It is a philosophy of science, like Eugenics. It is a guess, based off naturalism. Where as, the idea that we evolved, is not an issue unless you hold to a literal view of the creation accounts. Note the word, 'accounts'.
If you do that, you need to search out, from those in the field of theology, if in fact that is originally even how those receiving the initial accounts viewed it. If you do that, you will realize that a scientific account of creation many hundreds of years before science as we have know it (only a few hundred years ago), is anachronistic. They did not hold that view & us coming along now & saying it is scientifically accurate, is foolish. Science does back it up, but generally & that is what it is. A truth from God, not a scientific claim.
We need to deeply understand where those who followed God & brought forth the books of the Bible, were telling us. Not, what we want them to say. That difference can be huge if you do not start by asking God, 'What do You mean by this?'.
God Bless friends & keep the faith!
I am an Catalo-Anglican, and I have never had trouble with Darwinism at all.
Whaaaaaat? Let them become Christians and believe in Darwinism?!! Professor Craig, you are completely wrong on this. Becoming a Christian is the direct work of the Holy Spirit.
No one can say that separation of church and state is an absolute truth (history says it wasn't!) and be believed; therefore, it can be criticized as wishful thinking. What we find instead is that political ideology HAS triedf to supplant religion as the "official" religion-of-state.. Did "religion" go away?! O course not!! It's still, here whether one's "religion" has a place for God in it or not. Who knows what stupidity LURKS in the hearts of men? (THE SHADOW KNOWS!!)
You're commenting in a video series that presents mounds of logical evidence for the existence of God. Claiming a lack of evidence just because you've not considered it doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. The majority of atheists have little to no understanding of the bible and can only pick out one or two disagreeable bits or recite nonsense assertions they learned from the internet. So, yes, the 4th category, ignoramuses, are the worst kind.
Good talk by Craig but I disagree with him that you can be both a Christian and a Darwinist. However having said that, I do have Christian friends who are Darwinists. I take it they have not thought the matter through. See my book: "Evolution:What Dawkins did not tell you" A chapter by chapter critique of the book, The Best show on Earth.
@34:34 Where in the bible did God says He loves sinners? God not only says it, He demonstrated it through the atoning finished work of His Son on the cross:
Romans 5:6-8 (ESV)
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person-though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die- 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Matthew 9:13 (ESV)
13 Go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
John 3:16-17 (ESV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Christian is true you made me laugh 🤣🤣 wake up man
Missing important words: besaved and berepentant.
I too once thought as you did, so I completely understand where you are coming from. Choosing to believe in the god of the Bible does not come down to a matter of intelligence, it comes down to a matter of morality. The Apostle Paul gave a reply to your comments almost 2000 years. You can find his comments at 1 Cor 1:18-26.
31:05. Q&A. Great question.
Why do theists always act like their beliefs aren't worth believing? They don't just come right out of the gates and present strong, logical evidence proving a god exists. It's always endless distractions and if arguments are presented at all they rely on bad logic. (As all of Craig's typical arguments do. )
For example like claiming without evidence that objective morality exists (fallacy of bare assertion) and claiming that a god would be the best explanation of objective morality existed (another fallacy of bare assertion). Well "fallacy of bare assertion" is someone just saying something is true for no reason. There's no evidence of objective morality, and there's no logic that indicates that a god would be the best explanation if it did exist.
Yet when you explain those problems to theists, they basically just ignore them. In other words: they act like their beliefs aren't worth believing. They act like their beliefs are indefensible nonsense.
Well I hope anyone reading this values truth enough to be willing to listen to both sides (including the explanations of the logical errors of the arguments theists use) with an open mind and recognize that theists simply don't have even one good argument for a god. Most of it is argument from ignorance really (we don't know how life, the universe, etc, began to exist, so that proves we do know it was god; literally, "we don't know, which proves we do know.")
I am a Muslim. I got lots of benefits from William Lane Craig videos related to science and religion. Thank you.
But seeing you cherry-picking the verses about ambushing/killing the non-believers [at 38:40] made me sad. I was expecting better than that from William Lane Craig.
If you read the verses full in context, you would see that there were a treaty between Muslims and disbelievers at that time... And the disbelievers broke the treaty... Let me quote those verses from Quran 9:1-8
---------
1 [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
2 So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
3 And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah. And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.
4 Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
6 And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
7 How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
8 How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.
11:30 so people take in the facticity of things? (As in the existentialist use of the word), and wow its almost as if post modernism is a very broad term and applied to many schools of thought that don't all agree. Seriously post modernism is such a weird term, it means various people, even religious people, yet because they all came around at the same time they all get grouped together
"Philosophy is experiencing a veritable Renaissance of Christian thinking"
He should probably take a Philosophy class, a real one.
Secularism is separation of Church and state, WLC epic fail..
E.Q.: Funny, I don't recall Craig mentioning anything at all about the Constitution, only about civilized conversations regarding the existence and Deity of Jesus Christ, which he never said should be forced on anyone.
Dr. Craig I have a young man calling me a liar in regard to the source of the statement that Atheist are the biggest group of people who hate God. I wondered if you would provide that or msg it to me if you would rather not promote it?
That seems like a completely irrelevant argument
50:00. Since the abolition of Bible reading and prayer in America since 1963, crime has increased exponentially.
History of Education in America.
m.ruclips.net/video/ilnsw3odRI4/видео.html
I was an atheist, which for me has this definition: believing in nothing, and it's the same thing to say that we are unable to believe.
WLC is dead wrong.
ISLAM THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION. Quran “He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.”
William Lane Craig is one of my favorite comedians; he’s still out there tearing it up.
The crucifixion is not universally accepted, Mr Craig.
Quote:
According to some Gnostic traditions, Simon of Cyrene, by mistaken identity, suffered the events leading up to the crucifixion, and died on the cross instead of Jesus. This is the story presented in the Second Treatise of the Great Seth, although it is unclear whether Simon or another actually died on the cross.[8] This is part of a belief held by some Gnostics that Jesus was not of flesh, but only took on the appearance of flesh (see also Basilides, Irenaeus, and Swoon hypothesis).
The Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter provides a vivid description of Jesus as a spectator at his own crucifixion. According to the Second Treatise of tbe Great Seth the substitute was Simon, who bore the cross and on whom the crown of thorns was placed, while Jesus was an onlooker.
Clement of Alexandria appears to have considered the Apocalypse of Peter to be holy scripture.
[NB Clement is regarded as a Church Father, like Origen]
Although the numerous references to it attest to its being once in wide circulation, the Apocalypse of Peter was ultimately not accepted into the Christian canon.
Thank you for not providing one good reason to believe in the Islamic god. Because there isn't one. I'm sorry.
9pt9
Thanks for sharing more of your ignorance.
Again, thank you for not providing any good reason to believe in Islam. Of course there is not even one. Sorry.
9pt9
Bad for you not for me my friend.
Who cares what you believe.
Your loss.
I don't to waste my time trying to convince the unconvinceable.
You know that Islam exists.
You know Islam believes in God etc.
You choose not to believe it.
Good for you.
So run along now and we'll wait to see who was right.
Bye.
I believe and live for the one true lamb of God Jesus Christ. The light of the world, the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end.
You better take a good look at the fruit of Islam. Violence, terrorism, poverty and oppression plague every nation where it exists. Islam is the cancer of humanity. It is a lie.
Only Jesus saves and that's based on evidence.
I hate something I believe to not exist, you've really caught me out Einstein!
south america is forgotten.
Actually no.
Voting for Obama because you're not prejudice, and not voting for Palin because she's a woman, are the exact opposite things.
So.. your explanation is the wrong way around
( Not surprising... but I just thought I'd point out something else, rather than the whole " hating god " nonsense )
# 1 In what part of my comment did I say Christian Philosophy was fake?
# 2 What part of my argument is circular
# 3 Also wtf is the Birdieupon Blunders video about?
# 4 Also, not only is William Lane Craig painfully dishonest, but I've not yet seen a Christian apologist who is honest. Including the seemingly lovable ones like Joslin (Josh) Mcdowell (Add up how many books, lectures, and pod casts this guy claims in a year and you'll see what I mean.
# 5 you jealous drcraigvideos already taken?
Why are living to ensure your trashed eternity and why do you need to encourage others to do the same?
I didn't call you a liar, Mom. I asked for a source. If I'd called you a liar, I'd have used the word "liar". Right now, I'm telling you that you took a simple request for a source WAY out of context. You're making a mountain of a tiny pile of dirt that just happened to build up in the wind. Not even a mole hill, just a tiny, one inch high nub of dirt.
"Scientific naturalism", as Dr. Craig mentioned, should not be confused with philosophical naturalism. Dr. Craig is confusing the methodology of science - methodological naturalism - with atheism (or philosophical naturalism).
He says at 2:21, "secularism is the result from scientific naturalism, the view that all that exists are the entities that are postulated by.. physics" - but this isn't true.
Science does not claim "all that exists" is only what can be discovered through science.
Yes well I'm sure u R correct there. I've seen such ignorance as when I've heard many people actually tell me that the reason they voted for Obama is because they're not prejudice. As if that is a valid reason to vote or not to vote for someone. Incredible. It's like saying u didn't vote for McCann 'cos he's old. Or didn't vote cause Palin's a woman. Just incredibly dumb reasoning goes on out there for all sorts of views. Thx for your reply & input Amber.
I would argue that secularism is not, in any realistic analysis, a phenomenon compatible with the traditional, American form of liberalism, egalitarian democracy, economic justice, personal self-determination in compatibility with others, the moral responsibility to respect rights and needs of others. That is the real measure of a political or intellectual identity, not the mistaken identity with 18th century British-French "liberalism" which was enthusiastic about blood thirsty economic competition, economic inequality and the destruction of the weak or, worse, the red-fascism of Marxism.
Oh, and as to why the Brits have given up Christianity, the media, the BBC is quite hostile to Christianity in much of its programming. A lot of it is an extension of Brit anti-Catholicism being turned back on the Church of England and Christianity in general. Class snobbery as endemic in the caste of the British class system plays a large role in it. Never underestimate the role of manufactured fashion in such stuff.
But liberals=/= marxism. Marx wasn't a liberal, and if anything he was very much against liberalism because it hold the working class back.
Also the Queens title is defender of the faith, so to say faith is for definite disappearing in the UK is a very strong point to make and a hard one to keep
Your point about the abandonment of Christian profession in Britain is, of course, valid. The "post-Christianity" of Britain is more true of the upper class and the class of intellectuals than it is generally and, I would guess the mid-brow type of university grads who make up so much of the media. Not unlike the United States. What is also true is that a large amount of the "Christianity" that is professed has little to nothing to do with the Gospel, The Law, or the Prophets. That kind of nominal "Christian" paganism, often wedded to worldly governments and Mammon is probably a bigger and more dangerous problem than the atheist fad which seems to be to be fading, though it is still promoted by anti-religious academics and media figures and others.
My point was that Marxism has proven to be, in its trial in real life, to be as homicidal as Nazism or fascism or unrestrained capitalism (so the point about Brit-French concept of "liberalism" as opposed to the traditional American meaning of the word which is founded on the values of the Gospels, The Law and The Prophets and radical equality and justice). That fact that some forms of political ideology produce tens of millions if not, eventually, more deaths is a more legitimate means of placing them close together on a graph of political identity instead of the absurd idea that their claims about how they see economics places them on opposite ends of a line. Marxism and Nazism both equal death, oppression, denial of rights and the production of depraved disaster. That's the result of their trials in real life in the 20th century.
If God of Christianity loves everybody including the evildoers and transgressors and so on, why did he create hell and judgment then? This is question to Mr W.L Graig 🤔...
God created hell for those who do not WANT to spend eternal life with Jesus
@@edk484 But You claim that he loves you ? How is he still punishing ?
@@selim996 Who said He is punishing ? He invites you to come. You can accept His invitation or reject it. He loves you too much to force you to spend eternity with Him. It would be cruel to drag you into heaven if you do not want that
You're commenting on my post and assuming that I have no understanding of the supposed evidence for god.
I assure you that I do, and you are more than welcome to present any to me. You won't like what you learn.
and just for future reference.. the bible is particularly poor evidence for any god, so that would be a bad place to start, and insults aren't helpful either.
The Bible is the one backed by science and evidence. Jesus is backed by history and evidence and He also confirms the Bible. Stop asking for proof when you reject actual miracles and everything the universe is pointing towards. If you want proof for reality youre clearly in denial. Whats more likely to you? that noone created the universe or SOMEONE ? And how do you explain the finetuning of the universe that culminates with DNA (that is an evidence for design and inteligence in itself) ? What do you say for all the evidence for Jesus and His Resurrection ? Have you done some actual research or just adopted the atheist view the moment you were ridiculed by some witty ignoramus ? If you want scientific evidence for God do research. If you want to see miracles go to Israel, on the orthodox calendar and witness for yourself: the Ritual of Holy fire at the tomb of Jesus on Easter(Orthodox), the Feast of the Transfiguration(Orthodox) on Mt Tabor , the blessing of water when Jordan flows backwards (i repeat ...orthodox calendar!)
@@oldscorp
_Whats more likely to you? that noone created the universe or SOMEONE?_
- What makes you think the universe was created.
_And how do you explain the finetuning of the universe that culminates with DNA (that is an evidence for design and inteligence in itself) ?_
- Fine tuning is a teleological argument and it doesn’t work. DNA is even worse. Both the dame argument neither works for the same reasons.
_What do you say for all the evidence for Jesus and His Resurrection ?_
- What evidence?
_Have you done some actual research or just adopted the atheist view the moment you were ridiculed by some witty ignoramus ?_
- Oh I’ve done more than enough research to deal with name callers like you. Be my guest.
_If you want scientific evidence for God do research_
- Oh I have, there is none
_If you want to see miracles go to Israel, on the orthodox calendar and witness for yourself: the Ritual of Holy fire at the tomb of Jesus on Easter(Orthodox), the Feast of the Transfiguration(Orthodox) on Mt Tabor , the blessing of water when Jordan flows backwards (i repeat ...orthodox calendar!)_
- Funny stuff.
Anything serious?
40:15. How to respond to the "Separation of Church and State" argument in less than a minute.
By David Barton.
m.ruclips.net/video/GHvXNQ6nlxo/видео.html
so god loves so much the evildores and unbeleivers
so who's going to hell if christianty is true !?
*Unbelievers are going to Hell. Since the fall of Adam and Eve, mankind has inherited a curse, which is Death, and a Sinful Nature. [[Mankind is lost and is doomed to Hell by default.]] Satan isn't trying to get you to go to Hell, because of the great fall of man you are already going there. Satan is trying to keep you lost, keep you from getting saved, trying to keep the truth from you with lies and deceptions. Jesus Christ is God born as a human, he laid down his life by dying on the cross for your sins. And if you believe in your heart that Christ is God, and that he traded his life to atone for your sins; that he was crucified and rose from the dead, then you are halfway there. Then you must confess with your mouth that you are a sinner that needs saving, ask God to forgive you of all your sins and wrong-doing, and ask Jesus to come into your heart and be your personal savior, and you will be saved. The bible says you will be Gods purchased possession, and you will live in Heaven. And no one can take that from you.*
Mohanad: Anyone who rejects light can only be in and go to the dark. God will never force anyone to be with Him, because that is not loving, but He wants none to perish in the dark but be Home with Him in His Light and Love forever.
i know that whoever is satisfied that he is perfect and need no saviour has no business going to heaven for the heaven is for people who know that they are short of the glory of God and get reprieve from what Jesus did on the cross and do their best to live up to what He counselled. Love God and your neighbour,
God loves his creation, however this does not insinuate that unbelievers and evildoers are unable to enter hellfire.
Hell was taught to religious bigots. An individual who strongly and unfairly demonstrates hate and intolerance to religious viewpoints. Those people you see insulting Christians are walking straight into it.
How God he love setan
Until Christianity realises that it is really Paulianity
and very little to do with the explicit teachings of Jesus.
then it is going to continue suffering a decline.
*****
No time to read books my friend. Too much to catch up with already.
Why not just give me the main points.
Or does the book have to sell a false idea?
A father would love his son. There is no doubt.
But if this son grows up to become a murder and for example kills his mother, then can the father still love him? I don't think so and I don't think its a logic way to attract people to the christian faith by telling them God loves you whatever you do.
This seems to me playing with peoples emotions rather than giving them a convincing logic evidence.
Also it can be a crime promotion and a serious threat to the society.
GODLOVES U .. WHATEVER YOU DO ..YOU MY FRIEND...
Oh? So now you believe in ghosts too?
What about Leprechauns? Demons? Fairies? Gremlins?
ISLAM rejects the deity and atoning sacrifice.
- neither of these were taught by Jesus
Unless you'd care to point out the verses were Jesus explicitly and unambiguously teaches these doctrines.
With such important doctrines, I would expect Jesus to have made the issue very, very clear.
So let's have those expllicit and unambiguous verses where Jesus taught the doctrines 'Christians' follow.
Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Matthew 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Wayne Hampson
Thanks that is useful. I can see how you feel that supports your doctrine.
However, what I was looking for was something *unambiguous* and *explicit*.
I suppose the argument here would be that Jesus often taught in parables. I get that.
What Iwould think is that the above verse is open to interpretation. It cannot only be read one way.
If I had no knowledge of Christianity and had heard nothing about it before and was then given that verse to interpret, I have doubts that it would lead me to the idea that this was about a ransom sacrifice.
Jesus taught with parables and allegory. I would see this verse as saying something allegorical.
Again it is not *unambiguous* and *explicit*
Wayne Hampson Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Thanks for that too.
This again is not explicit teaching of the doctirne of the ransom sacrifice.
What this verse would tell me if I had neaver heard Christian doctrrine before , is that Jesus came to dedicate and offer his life, even if it meant dying for the cause, to spread his message that came to save many.
And the other problem we have is with exact wording. What was the original word in the Koine Greek for 'ransom' and what other meanings does that have. Some translations say redemption or redemption price. Redemption is not necessarily the same as ransom as it doesn't necessitate an exchange of something to pay a debt.
The other problem is that the Bible is known to be inaccurate and we have no originals. There are many variants. There is no way to tell whether the verses you lay your salvation on are originals or variants. And with words like 'ransom' , variants make all the difference.
To insist these verses are perfect is just special pleading.
Mark 14: 61-62: "Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” Jesus said, “I AM. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
I don't know how it gets any clearer than that. But you've already killed your own question, so I don't see how any of this matters. You ask for verses and then dismiss them by claiming the Bible is inaccurate and unreliable. Let's have some intellectual honesty. Don't ask a question if you don't want the answer.
I will say that I do appreciate the fact that we both love God. The God we love is the same -- the God of Abraham. I also admire the general (not radical, mind you) devotion that Islam has for God. One can not help but admire such devotion; Islam is very diligent with constantly keeping God at the forefront of all thoughts. Christianity could take a lesson in that regard.
But I also believe in a God that loved me so much that He was willing to do anything to have me with Him (including debase Himself by becoming a Man, enduring brutal punishment and defeating evil for my sake). That's what sets Christianity apart from all other religions in the world: Our God doesn't ask us to die for Him -- Rather, our God died for us. Now THAT is a love worth finding.
God loves not . . .
Well done for cherry picking verses and misrepresenting Islam.
May God destroy the works of those that spread lies.
How is that a lie or misrepresentation? That is precisely the message of Islam.
9pt9
May God destroy the works of those that spread lies.
That goes for you too my friend
Will you publicly condemn the acts of the 9/11 jihadists and of ISIS?
9pt9
That is a bit out of the blue my friend.
What a weird thing to bring up in a discusson about comparative religion.
Easy question and easy answer but the question raises a far bigger issue i.e. the fact that you are media led and can't think for yourself.
Answer these questions:
1 - can a passport survive when it is inside a plane that explosed inside a building and then falls 100s of metres? Take note that not even the black box survived this disaster.
2 - do you think it likely a coincidence that the entire US air force was out of action on the day their main city got attacked.
3 - how did WT7 come down.
4 - why has opium production increased 10-fold since the taliban were defeated?
5 - how did ISIS get hold of US supplied weapons and 4x4s and tonnes of money?
6 - why did the US refuse air strikes when they were sitting ducks riding into Iraq
7 - who is behind ISIS and why isn't Israel afraid of them?
8 - do you think for yourself or do you let the media mould you?
Ok disregard 9/11 since you are invoking conspiracy theories.
Do you publicly condem ISIS burning a pilot alive and beheading people?
Do you publicly condemn the recent terrorist attack in France?
The Nobel prize awaits the first person to prove gods ever existed. The nut house is waiting for those of you who already know gods exist.
+don leavell The hell is waiting for Godless eggs who do not want God to exist .The same is true with atheists who have challenged God to show Himself their own way.
BLUEBIRD
Is that your attempt at proof? The nut house is waiting. "Godless eggs." Fuck you, stupid. Read some non-fiction. And what's your problem with demonstrable, reproducible test results instead of bullshit spewing from your brain?
don leavell THE HELL IS WAITING FOR GODLESS EVOLUTIONISTS WHO HAVE NOTHING BUT BAD MANNER AND DIRTY MOUTHS .
don leavell "The Nobel prize awaits the first person to prove gods ever existed."
Is there a Noble for the person who proved that Atlantic ocean exists?
"The nut house is waiting for those of you who already know gods exist."
*ATHEISTS ARE MENTALLY ILL*
Are atheists mentally ill? -- August 14th, 2013 -- Sean Thomas
Excerpt:
"Let's dispense with the crude metric of IQ and look at the actual
lives led by atheists, and believers, and see how they measure up. In
other words: let's see who is living more intelligently. And guess what:
it's the believers. A vast body of research, amassed over recent
decades, shows that religious belief is physically and psychologically
beneficial -- to a remarkable degree.,,,
[I hope this next part
doesn't upset too many people, but...] the evidence today implies that
atheism is a form of mental illness. And this is because science is
showing that the human mind is hard-wired for faith... religious people
have all their faculties intact, they are fully functioning humans.
Therefore, being an atheist -- lacking the vital faculty of faith --
should be seen as an affliction, and a tragic deficiency: something akin
to blindness. Which makes Richard Dawkins the intellectual equivalent
of an amputee, furiously waving his stumps in the air, boasting that he
has no hands."
don leavell *SCIENCE PROVES ATHEISTS ARE INSANE*
"Materialists and atheists will, of course, be offended if we suggest that their heroes were actually insane, and their attack on God... was a deranged fantasy and not an explanation of scientific knowledge. But ... Darwin, Thomas Huxley, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Sigmund Freud - had many hallmarks of mental illness stamped on their personality. "In point of fact, a careful study of their biographies in light of improved scientific knowledge may reveal not only that each man was mentally ill, but that each man suffered the same form of mental illness. It was this mental illness that led each of them to pervert science into an attack on God."
ALL YOUR DARWINIAN HEROES ARE MENTAL PATIENTS.
OWNED
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
Wrong side of history. This is like listening to the pro-slavery speeches of John Calhoun or J.H. Hammond.
CRAIGS SHAMELSS LIES 34:53
He says _There is no place in the quran no outweighing texts that affirms that God does loves sinners. The texts are unanimous . . . he only loves those who do righteous deeds_
“O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of God: verily, God forgives all sins. Truly He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Quran 39:53)
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “I swear by Him in whose hand is my soul, if you were a people who did not commit sin, Allah would take you away and replace you with a people who would sin and then seek Allah’s forgiveness so He could forgive them.” [Sahīh Muslim (2687)]
'The Qur'an commans violence to propagate the religion', says Craig.
What terrible misrepresentation of what those verses about.
May God destroy the works of those that spreawd misinformation and lies.
Where does it say in the Koran that Allah loves the infidel and apostate?
Wayne Hampson
If you couldn't understand my post above, you won't understand any further elucidation.
May God destroy the works of those that spread misinformation and lies.
moxho xhoxho
You are projecting your silly Paulian mental machinations to Islam.
That doesn't wash.
moxho xhoxho
Your intellectual modus operandi is suspect and not worthy of serious consideration.
moxho xhoxho
You used 2 just then.
Time Stamps
*The Talk* 0:36
1:07 Introduction: Purpose of his talk tonight. (The challenge that lies before us and the role of apologetics in the church)
1:26 The problem of the Church
2:15 The Left: Secularism. A summary and brief Definition
3:25 The Left: Secularism. History
4:49 The Left: Secularism. Why is this History Important?
6:12 The Left: Secularism. How should we approach the left? 6:44 A quote
7:20 The Left: Secularism. The primary target/focus of the approach: The university. 8:20
8:34 The Left: Secularism. This is not impossible as it may seem.
9:32 The Left: Secularism. The approach summarized again.
10:04 The Left: Secularism. Isn't the left, postmodern? Where arguments of reason and logic no longer is accepted?
10:40 The Left: Secularism. The response to the postmodern assertion: No way! No one can be truly, 100% postmodern.
12:12 The Left: Secularism. The response to the postmodern assertion: Craig asserts the craftiness of the postmodern assertion is subtle, like satan. Approaching the left from a postmordern approach is figuratively, suicide.
13:41 The Left: Secularism. The response to the postmodern assertion: Personal examples of how students are actually the opposite and enjoy and genuinely engaged in logic and reason.
19:38 13:41 The Left: Secularism. The response to the postmodern assertion: Conclusion: Dont be deceived by this assertion
20:09 The Right: Islam. Introduction.
21:13 The Right: Islam. Islamic Beliefs, and it's differences and opposition to Christian beliefs.
22:10
22:18 The Right: Islam. A History and it's impact
23:10 The Right: Islam. The problem: Secularism lacks the spiritual substance for dealing with Islam. In fact, it produces a spiritual vacuum that Islam seem to fill easily.
23:27 The Right: Islam. The problem: Secularism can only respond with draconion political measures.
24:09 The Right: Islam. *The solution*: A storng, Vibrant, Widely shared faith with spiritual truth with no attraction to Islam. The church seems to be asleep, either due to intimidation or political correctness. To share our faith is to love others, to be silent is unloving. (I would like to add that sharing our faith is direct, faithful obedience to 1 Peter 3:15).
25:08 The Right: Islam. The Solution: The role of appologetics. It isn't difficult to do! Just talk about Jesus.
26:35 The Right: Islam. The Islamic concept of God is deficient. Islam can be justifiably criticismed for its morialy inadequate concept of God. '"god" loves not...' The muslim "god" is not all loving. This "god's" love is partial and has to be earned.
28:45 The Right: Islam. The solution: The church must not be silent on this false theism (and another gospel!). The church should be like Paul and opposed it unflinchingly.
29:33 The Right: Islam. The solution: The church has something better to offer, the gospel! (The good news!)
29:51 Conclusion: The Church is challenged on both sides... But we are not lacking in equipment.
*The Q & A* 30:59
31:24 Question 1: Why is the judeo-Christian West been more secularized than the Islamic Middle East?
31:47 Answer: The West is the stepchild of the Enlightenment, and rejects the monarchy and church to adopt reason and logic, almost as the new "god". It is not the intelligencia but the working classes that lacks faith in Christ.
34:35 Question 2: God loves sinners but the bible also talks about how God hates sinners as well. In light of the Islamic "god" which hates sinners so partially, is God any different?
36:42 Question 3: Should Christians refer to Islamic deity as God?
41:26 Question 4: Should we deal with the Left the same way to the Right? Should we challenge mohammud?
44:14 Question 4.5: How would you move a friend (who grants you the existence and deity of Jesus), to a position of salvation?
45:16 Question 5: Is post-modernism the offspring of naturalism? (Evangelic strategy: WLC thinks it is very unwise to attack Darwinism and we should set the metaphorical bar as low as possible so that can come to saving faith of Christ. Other questions can be discussed in detail in house or at a later time.)
48:50 Question 6: People say: "God has failed and human love is the answer to all problems." How do we address violence to demonstrate God's love? (I think this is almost a question of evil question.)
51:18 Question 7: What is the best way to let the Church leadership know that apologetic is the way to go?
51:33 Answer 7: The wrong appoach is to give the pastor another burden. The right approach is to take that responsibility and teach it yourself or give some sort of support in this venture. If teaching apologetics is too hard, WLC has a defenders class videos.
53:35 Question 8: How do we let Church leadership see the importance of apologetics? Some Church leadership see it as a path to doubt.
53:51 Answer 8: 1) Share stats of how many youth leave the church, upon colleage. 2) Bring a person who got lost and was brought back on apologetics, who logically and reasonabily saw the evidence of the faith.
55:47 Question 9: If someone does not believe in a historical Adam, how do we share the gospel?
57:22 Fin
*End* 57:40