Joker (2019) | Mental Health and Personality Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- This video answers the questions: can I analyze the mental health and personality characteristics of Joker? Is the movie Joker dangerous? Is the movie Joker a good film?
Psychopathy:
There are two types of psychopathy: Factor 1 (primary, interpersonal affective) and Factor 2 (lifestyle, antisocial) psychopathy. Factor 1 psychopathy has characteristics like grandiosity, pathological lying, manipulation, a superficial charm, callous, unemotional, low neuroticism and lack of guilt or remorse. Factor 2 psychopathy has a parasitic lifestyle, being prone to boredom, sensation seeking, impulsivity, irresponsibility, a failure to have long term goals, poor behavioral controls, and criminal versatility.
Antisocial personality disorder:
1. Repeated unlawful behaviors
2. Consistent deceitfulness
3. Impulsivity, poor planning
4. Aggressiveness, physical fights
5. Reckless disregard for safety
6. Consistent irresponsibility
7. Lack of remorse
Narcissistic personality disorder:
This is a disorder listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM). The definition for this disorder contains nine symptom criteria, five of which are required for diagnosis.
1. A grandiose sense of self-importance
2. preoccupation with exaggerated fantasies of success, power, and beauty
3. believing oneself to be special or unique
4. requiring excessive admiration
5. having a sense of entitlement
6. manipulating others interpersonally
7. lacking empathy
8. being envious of others
9. being arrogant, pretentious, or supercilious
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/ drgrande
"Society shouldn't do the right thing because of fear of violence, but out of a desire to be kind". Amen!
Unfortunately, it doesn't care about either.
@@michaelm3691 It often looks like that. Perhaps ultimately, the apparent lack of caring is the result of being disappointed in what deeply inside seems to be the most natural, obvious and easy way of relating to each other. What other real purpose is there apart from being kind to each other. In the end even the most superficial or confused person just wants to be liked by others (or him/her self) right?
@@curiosity_saved_the_cat Let me be slightly less simplistic. I think individual people can care about each other, but it's rare to care about strangers unless biologically pre-disposed to do so (i.e. women, babies and cute animals) or you share something that makes you think of them not as strangers. Even then, the caring among strangers is still limited. This is a result of our tribes having grown out of control and become disconnected to both work and private life. If I felt sick a hundred thousand years ago, the medicine man would be someone I grew up with, laughed with, hunted with and who depended on my well-being too. He would _want_ to help me.
Now, the doctor is completely disconnected to me and doesn't give a shit - especially since I'm living in a country with free healthcare and plenty of patients for him so there's no incentive either. I go to him, tell him I need help and he either tells me he can't or the first "solution" that comes to his mind. That's the process, and outside the process I don't exist. There is no further reflection. No "let me think about this". No follow-up to see if it worked. Not even a referral unless, I push for it. I change doctor, and it is the same. I do this ten times, and it is the same. And it is the same for other professions too. There is no purpose and no human that depends on you; only the process. Kindness doesn't help with that. Assertiveness and taking matters into your own hands does. I found it better to reserve my empathy for those who deserve it and truly depends on me.
However, ideally, we should build a much (much) stronger sense of community in our societies to replace the lost tribal identity, but that's a rant that would take wayyy to long :-)
While true, does that dismiss the portrayal of the violence happening BECAUSE of society's contribution? Like, is what the movie showing not validated by any real world events? Cause only then would the message be inaccurate, even if not preferred. I get that connecting the mentally disabled to violence is more scientifically wrong, but I'm not so sure about the society part of the equation.
@@michaelm3691
Yea, religion use fear to control behavior, and movies are seen as much lower than religion.
I don’t think that the message was to stop being cruel due to fear of violence, it’s more like to understand what damage could we cause to others without noticing.
i do think the film is purposely done its way and serves more as a mirror to every single person that watches it :D
@Elizabeth Ray Fortifying a link between mental illness and violence was not the point of the film, it was just one of the many aspects that made him suffer as an individual, an individual which was disregarded by an uncaring, unempathetic society that deems everyone guilty of their own actions regardless of their situation and it's outcome, that fact that you are a non violent individual with a mental illness doesn't make you better than one who is not, a psycopath that was dealt good cards in life would have probably been an excellent CEO of a company ( which science can also back up ) "producing" a "great deal" for society and everyone would have been ok with that, " evil " is a made up word and merely a point of view by a cultural standpoint.
@Elizabeth Ray There are no comics depicting the true beginnings of the Joker and the few things that there are are not canon, therefore they can do as they please because it's up to DC and they seemed to like it.
I also don't think you got what the person was trying to say in the beginning by saying "people causing damage without noticing" he meant the people not the joker. 🤦♂️
Those people justifying him for having an illness also don't get the point of the film, I must agree with mr Mark about the nihilism and the philosophical aspect of the movie, justifying someone for doing things with or without a mental illness vs understanding the tragedy of someone that falls through the cracks of society until they lose all hope and find a rather twisted yet passionate meaning in showing the world how ugly it is, is beautifully paradoxical and masterful, it also explains and ties very well why batman could never really control him and was and always will be his greatest adversary, A BRILLIANT depiction of the joker, which is exactly what heath ledger's Joker did too, and no one complained about him soOOOoOoO :')
Because you are committing a black and white fallacy by saying that he is "just" an "evil" character because he's a murderer you are directly implying that you are better, but that's okay, nothing wrong for considering yourself better than a murderer, then again, as I said before "evil" is a point of view.
Yeah I didnt get the idea that..be kind OR else was the message. I think t was just Be kind because we will lose a good man's soul to the dark side, a man who had kindness and sensitivity and beauty. It's not a warning, but a tragedy. You can agree or not with the message that society is partly to blame or not, it certaibnly seemed to be the case in this movie.Btw I have 2 bipolar friends and they both loved it.
@Elizabeth Ray At the time when the character was made it was much more common for people with conditions and/or personality disorders to just be called "crazy" which he was called constantly, there is no official dr in comics stating that he is indeed not mentally ill to some degree, therefore it's subjective to interpret, so I don't know what you have investigated, once again, mental illness was not the cause of his retaliation to the world, it was one of the many ways he suffered.
I agree about people living with stigmas, but for example my long time girlfriend who is now my good friend went to see it and she told me she loved it, she's a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic, she said that if she had no support system in her life and all she received was abuse ans violence she would probably do something horrible in the end, because I would too, because it's not about mental illness, it's about what happens to the person who is pushed to the limits and beyond of what the soul can endure.
It's not only my and her opinion either, you have someone here in the comment section with a condition telling you just this. 😊
People should be in uproar about how Arthur is moulded by the cruelties of society, not the violence. He finds liberation in his "madness". This film opens up many emotions...masterpiece.
Thorn InYourSide Word.
@*xokireiキレイ* I suffer with mental health and I'm not offended by this film. People are so easily offended.. it's a film...fiction and I thought it was fantastic cinema, not seen a good film like this in a while.
*xokireiキレイ* well said.
@*xokireiキレイ*
I dont think he was criticizing the narrative as much as stating his preference with narratives that dont use this, though it was to be expected with someone like Joker for it to be faithful to the character. This doc didn't like it but never condemned it or people that like it either.
The film was really great. I saw a good analysis of it in the video "How the Joker Smashes our Political Narratives". Dr. Grande's analysis was interesting, but mostly from a scientific perspective, not an artistic one.
The movie was life-changing for me, I know I need some mental help… This movie encouraged me to get the help I need. And change my life.
I wish all the best to you. Hopefully your life sorts out.
Hmmm. I sought help cuz u know life be on some bs, not everything tho. I got diagnosed with cognitive distortion. But im glad this movie is making individuals seek help.
I wish all the best for you! Sometimes it can feel like it wont help but trust me healing is not linear, but the good days will out weigh the bad. Stay strong and stick with treatment. And don't be afraid to ask questions or find a different doctor if you feel one isnt treating you right. Sending good vibes your way! One of the toughest steps is admitting you need help. You can do this!
Sorry if this is weird I just have been there
wow that's great.
@Mark Donald bless you too, friend :) have a lovely day/evening
I feel that the movie did show how other people’s perceptions create their own reality. If Joker’s mother did in fact show signs of having NPD and we know that children who usually grow up in those environments tend to be neglected, lack healthy coping skills, and seek validation from others then I am having a difficult time understanding how this movie does not have much to do with mental health.
This movie reminds me of the Adverse Childhood Experience (ACE) research which shows how our environment during childhood can impact our mental health as an adult. I am not saying what Arthur did is ok, I feel that his perception, lack of coping skills, and not getting quality care is what creates his reality and the cause of his behavior. Unfortunately, the people who are known to commit violent acts (several or massive) have justified such acts by their own reality. Our realities are created to protect us from discomfort or pain.
The lesson and take away from this movie should be - everyone has their own perception, people want to feel heard and understood, and when someone gets to the point they are being extreme, they have usually shown signs earlier but we just didn’t pay attention to them. If you read over the manifestos and interviews with serial killers, most of them felt wronged and not heard. We tend to echo the things that have happened to us. Hopefully, this movie brings awareness to our ignorance in human behavior and we start to take people seriously.
Great video!
So, everything you're saying doesnt necessarily connect mental disorders/disabilities to killers, even if some of them have disorders correct?
Does this tie into other types of killers like terrorists and suicide bombers, or even soldiers?
ARTHUR WAS ALREADY VIOLENT BEFORE ALL HIS MEDICATION PROBLEMS. He said he was " happier inside" to first social worker. His mom ran from him in his ANGER FITS 2x in film she was scared. Sure they weren't his first 2 explosive fits. Of course you dont even have to have mental illness to have outbursts.but Arthur did. Even the SEVERE brain injuries as a child could have caused or added to his violent explosive outbursts which is common in frontal lobe brain injuries. Of course his abusive home environment just added more.
@@notsogreen PTSD has outbursts of anger.
Absolutely!
@@Alex_Logan22 mental illness can lead to society and most people treating you like your nothing.
A counsellor's movie analysis is SO much more interesting than a film critic's.
In this case? A hundred percent.
On the other hand. 💊I'm sharing Acts 2:38 with anyone who wants it bless
@@piedramultiaristas8573 shut up
Our counselor here omits a major point of the narrative, being the possible weaponization of the mental health system against Penny.
She states that she did not apply for adoption, and we see that the application on file is typewritten, not handwritten. This discrepancy leads to her being lobotomized.
The police complaint which is pulled from her file refers to "her own child", not "her adopted child".
We are shown a decrepit and feeble Penny, and discount her through the entire film, as we do with elderly persons of no means. When we see the young and vital Penny, she has self-assuredness and veracity of thought. The medical opinion of her is in direct conflict with what we see of her.....yet we do what the nice men in coats say.
(It is worth noting that Doctor Benjamin Stoner is a comic villain who abuses those under his care.)
I'm addicted to the channel, "Cinema Therapy," for exactly that reason!
I'm also addicted to Dr. Grande, partly because he explores many perspectives of mental health, including movie portrayals, serial offenders, possibly innocent parties, and possibly guilty parties--all in an unbiased ish manner.
Society was the Antagonist and the Joker was the Victim, and everyone is afraid of this movie because the portrayal of Society in handling people like Arthur was accurate. You'd hope that'd help insight some change, but people just got offended.
Shukenstein B.I.N.G.O.! Structural violence repeatedly inflicted upon the dispossessed (called by some "the deplorables") creates an environment in which violence becomes reasonable. Our present social chaos is in an arc of descent. Corruption is now endemic throughout the professional class. There is no access to any justice for the vast majority. The pretense that anything matters beyond money and power is merely salt in the wound. Of course they are afraid of the Joker. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to be able to behave horribly, illegally, with wanton disregard for common sense and basic decency. Imperil decline ain't pretty. And those at the top of the pile always project their own shit onto anyone below them they can. We live in an age in which the ratcheting up of stress is clearly percolating through the entire fabric of our society. Can you say: the fall of Rome? I can!
Well said.
@@driveagoodmanbad642 this film of Joker was a perfect metaphor for the Fall of Rome, I think it's funny everyone who was offended was the elite class. But that's funny because Bane In Dark Night Rises also has the poor kill the rich and no one cared. It's because Arthur Fleck is a person written so well people know people living the streets who are 120% carbon copies of him, who stand by and eat the shit society gives them. Joker just revealed those people can only be pushed so far.
Correct, Arthur was a scapegoat.
@@notsogreen I lived in Los Angeles County. Have you ever been in downtown L.A? I can tell you that they don't house the homeless. They don't medicate those who require/need it and they do not help anyone who doesn't have money.
Skid row is within short walking distance of all the shops in downtown. You can literally smell it 6 blocks before you hit it. I'm not sure where you're from or your social status but you have zero clue on how the system fails society time and again. Smh, there's so much suffering in the world and while some may find it hard to believe that social workers can state that nobody cares, I have heard it first hand from a supervising social worker that their job is to take peoples kids and that's it.
Try looking up cases where social services have allowed kids back into abusive homes, reuniting children with parents who've sexually abused them. It's nationwide and a serious problem. How could anyone expect these kids to then grow up and become successful without having suffered severe trauma?
I'm surprised you didn't discuss how Arthur's history of being abused as a child might affect his mental state as an adult. We know those who are abused violently as children sometimes grow up to be violent themselves.
👍👍👍
True
Well, those people you are talking about become like the offenders that they're suffered from.
That kind of people preys on the weak, so mostly on children and/or woman.
Arthur here showed not a slight ounce of this behaviour or mindset.
He was kind to children and had no hard feelings against woman (let his mother aside in the end, because of obvious reasons).
He wasn't even violent in any way until the happening in the subway (which was nothing but self defense in 2 out of 3 cases).
@@WolfeRavenwood Well, he didn't know about the abuse. The only consequence from the abuse, is the medical condition called pseudobulbar affect.
Exactly!
ER doctor here. I have extensive experience with patients who suffer from psychosis, though I only treat them in the short term. I was impressed by the structure of this movie. At times, the viewer cannot be certain whether what he is seeing is real. Are these events happening, or is Arthur experiencing hallucinations / delusions? Is it a mixture? What is real and what isn’t? Did Arthur’s relationship with his neighbor happen? Did he really kill the three men? Is Wayne his father? Is his mother truthful? Is she even real and present? Is the city actually embracing the Joker as a role model or is this a delusion of grandeur?This is exactly what it is like to actually experience psychosis! Such patients do not know what is real. They may or may not be aware that they suffer a disorder. It is quite an impressive narrative device.
i recentely suffered a psychotic/manic episode and was diagnosed with bipolar 1 and this is extremely accurate. the entire film and what you're saying is exactly what someone with psychosis would definitely have!
I agree. I thought the disjointedness added soo much to the film. It was a beautiful film.
The best movie I ever seen ,, I was not expecting such a masterpiece
i agree
:o
Have you seen many movies??
Same! It was brilliant!
I would go that far cause its hard to compare it to other great movies like The Godfather cause they are completely different. But yes great great movie.
My conclusion was this: A kind guy with a big heart was kicked around by people so hard even seeking a little bit of love from his father ended up in violence. When there is no love, finally one revolts. Humans need LOVE.
It's not surprising that the jokers pathology doesn't align with proper psychological science. It would actually be a more sensitive and interesting film if they encouraged you to understand and sympathise with proper mental health problems. If it depicted him as being narcissistic, and having a true antisocial development rather than a sudden onset personality disorder.But the politics of the film are so uninsightful that you know what's coming before you see it. For me the most depressing thing is the films popularity. So many people think it's important when they're really just being fed an ideology they want alongside an uninsightful depiction of mental health. Everything about this film and people's response felt predictable and dishonest.
He was not truly good, it was clear he had symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder and possibly anti social personality disorder as well.
@@jacksonreeder8125 No I'd say psychosis since he heard and saw people that were unreal but defending oneself in the subway isnt psychopathy, thats being normal. As far as narcissistic disorder, its included within psychopathy.
I haven't been to cinema for the last 5 years, Joker made me broke that 5 year streak.
Me too.. I dont usually watch movies at the cinema. I watched Joker twice.
Great movie to choose
@@MeatCatCheesyBlaster Did you just assume their marital status? What a bigot!
@@MeatCatCheesyBlaster Huh?
Your Neighbour break*
Yes, the movie appeared 'jumbled' because it reflects Joker's reality. He's unpredictable, broken and there is no structure to his madness. The system has failed him, he's all out of options and the shred of humanity he was hanging onto left when he shot and killed his attackers.
Generally speaking, those who analyze the hell out of movies and try to make sense of everything will find this movie confusing even disconcerting.
If a movie is truly great, it should be even better after analysis. The problem is too many people just do a superficial analysis or aren't really good at analyzing movies. I haven't found any analysis that was good from a cinematic perspective on Joker (though this is a good scientific analysis)
Dr Grande's point (which I agree with) seems to be that the movie sabotages any emotional investment of the audience when later scenes deny that earlier scenes actually happened in the story. Once that happens, for the rest of the movie, the audience will be wondering whether the current scene is real or the movie is going to repudiate this scene too. The second half of the movie should be building tension for the climax, but it can't because you are questioning whether what you're seeing is actually happening in the story. "Fool me once, shame on you..." It's not a matter of overanalysis. If anything the movie's proponents seem to be the ones engaging in overanalysis, by claiming that the audience should have known that Sophie relationship wasn't real because some things about it didn't make sense (Sophie being out of his league, Sophie leaving whenever he interacts with a "real" person), as if it's the audience's fault that they suspend disbelief while watching a movie.
It made the movie feel short, like it was missing the third act
I never sympathized with the joker. He was a narcissist who had been conditioned into submission by his adoptive mother, who had been diagnosed with NPD. Breaking the law is never justified even though it may feel gratifying.
@@sonnyca well, he was delutional, but even we dont know if the whole thing was a delution... the story we are told was that the social system was broken so bad that all the rioters sympathized with him, but at the same time, they didnt know the whole story.... the movie did a very good job at contradictory issues, always putting the Joker in a questionable position, like his self defense and cold blood kill scene, it does that thoughout the whole movie, from his mother, to his co-workers, keeps you second guessing the situation
I related to a lot in this movie. It was extremely accurate with mental illness.
Him writing in his book about how people expect you to act like you don't have a mental illness is so true. We're an inconvenience.
I have been ill since 6 and lost friends never dated or touched a female but desperately want to
Me being clinically depressed, I have no choice but to show it cuz then if I pretend to be okay, then people forget and wonder why I don't do things right or care about stuff.
That. Part. That part hit me so hard. Society isn't as accepting of mental illness as it thinks it is, it's always trying to condition those who are different to conform a certain way. Even when Arthur is receiving treatment, people were still marginalising him.
Seduction Productions It really was. That statement hit me hard, and I related with the Joker, too, because a lot of what is mentioned about how society treats mentally ill people is correct.
Sure you can relate. If you can relate to this movie you have some serious issues
In my personal opinion, this movie has become my favorite movie of 2019! I loved every minute of it.
Same!
Same
It's a straight fact lol
In my opinion, it is the first movie, ever.
Johnny Salter sorry dude, Joker wasn’t the first movie ever made
When a village doesn’t embrace a child, that child will burn the village for warmth when he grows - African proverb
What is it with you teens spewing this pseudo-intellectual bullshit on every Joker video? Literally the same quote over and over. I swear to god 99% of comments are nothing substantial but rather those edgy quotes.
@@LG1204 You seem to take offense at the narrative surrounding the character, in quite the personal way.
Interesting.....
@@peace__777 Nah, it's the fact that these edgelords spam the same quote over and over thinking they're very smart in doing so.
@@LG1204 It's a good, fitting quote.
@@futsk01 It's everywhere for no reason and it doesn't give a new perspective on anything at all.
I don't remember another movie character ever sparking so much public analysis.
the internet is fairly new but sure good timing , also check donnie darko xd, this one did hit it mainstream tho
While I agree, Donnie Darko and Travis Bickle did get quite of bit of analysis. Just no internet or social media to give everyone a platform
Then your memory is bad
You must be very young, then.
Daniel Plainview from There will be Blood film got quite few analysis also. Great character study film, if you haven't seen it do yourself a favor and do! Outstanding film.
"He's working in a children hospital, dancing around, and his gun falls off of his pants. Just stresses the importance of having a holster, right?".
How could you say something so controversial yet so brave
That was funny.
There's literally nothing controversial about it. The only point being made was: _if_ you're going to carry a gun, you should have a holster, for safety.
@@futurestoryteller Its was just a prop as Joker said.
Sure
Thank you for transcribing it! I didn't understand when he said (I'm not being sarcastic)
As someone with mental illness i loved this movie. It shows how people can snap, how hard it is to be "normal" how people treat us.
It wasn’t the violence in the film that to me drove the point home. It was the point that we never know what someone is going through, so to take the time and check my own emotions, be more patient and considerate. The violence is probably what effected me the least; I’ve seen worse violence in a dozen films this year alone.
On the other hand. 💊I'm sharing Acts 2:38 with anyone who wants it bless
I find that violence is way more impactful when it has a specific purpose. Joker's violence serves it's purpose well.
John wick was way more violent.
@Dr. Todd Grande - The Joker's back story is not supposed to be cut and dry. It's to make you wonder about his past. Even in the Dark Night Returns, the Joker always gives a different reason for his scars. We're not supposed to know exactly why or what caused him to be the way he is. As stated in the comics, his back story is always multiple choice... So that's why the story may appear convoluted. It's meant to be that way.. Anyway.. Love your channel..
That’s always been my favorite thing about the Joker, and I thought they tied it in well with the possible delusions.
combining mental illness with an uncaring society leads to homlesssness
imagine if Arthur had access to universal healthcare, he would never have become Joker
SPOILER
THE ONLY REAL SCENE IS THE LAST SCENE IN THE ARKHAM PSYCHIATRIST'S OFFICE.
Marie ELSTER that’s what everyone’s conclusion is , and if that’s really true than if they make a sequel the sequel will explain how it was all a delusion and joker escapes the asylum and that’s where reality starts to happen.
Marie ELSTER but Bruce’s parents did die tho.
@@CaseyPlexy1 PLEASE. Phoenix didn't even want to include the Waynes in the film. No that scene was ALL PART OF THE INSIDE JOKE. That's not even how they die in comicbook or film, anyway. Next time you see it THAT LAST LAUGH IS ON YOU. He's not Joker or Arthur Fleck.
Can you do an analysis on the character Travis Bickle from the movie “Taxi Driver”? Arthur is heavily based on that character, who Robert De Niro actually portrayed.
I would love that!!!
@@JustaNobody-j8x while fun .i want to have more entertainment to see.
You looking at me ?!!
@@franmellor9843 Hi Fran, Only saw the movie once and as an adult. Got the feeling he was working himself up and pushing to create a monster he was not? Perhaps using Alister Crowley techniques?
@@suzanneseitz6655 well is there something grende will show us?
Joker was a perfect example of complex ptsd which is a series of traumatic events that happen over a long period of time which is usually caused by childhood neglect, abuse, bullying etc that creates a pictures of oneself as inferior and bad. This causes detrimental effects to how one see’s themselves and the world and can also lead to other mental illness which is what we see in aurthers life
I went to my doctor saying I was struggling and having thoughts about suicide. She replied 'you and everyone else'. Seems to me the negative comments by professionals aren't that uncommon!
I can relate to what you say. Psychiatrists are humans and some do suffer themselves of some sort of disorder. I had one who was a complete narcissist.
🤣🤣😂😂
@@zhongkui8627 There’s an old saying that goes along the lines of, “those who seek out psychological & psychiatric degrees/careers are attempting to solve/better understand themselves.”
@@kadebebesis4204As a counselor in training, I can attest to this ^
Psychiatrists kind of suck. I don't really care for them much.
As someone who struggles with mental health issues, this movie makes me cry 100% of the time because it gives a platform to the ways people digest life and the effects of its interactions opposed to the social norms. I.E. if it's not thought of this way, it's abnormal and ostracized. Its a beautiful movie and with all due respect, while the clinical analysis send spot on, it send that the perception of its meaning is based on objective sensibilities built on those social norms. That being said, it's reaction here, proves that very point. IMO
Hi, I appreciated your video! I’m mentally ill, but no where near as bad as I used to be, thankfully. But I have to say, I disagree. I didn’t feel like the joker linked violence and mental health together as inherently connected. I think that joke towards the end was just a him thing... There were so many factors that lead him to what he became, that I don’t think we can say it’s any one thing. That’s a big part of why I like the movie, it’s a complex web of causes that are confusing to navigate, like real life.
With ambiguous movies, multiple choice, where the viewer has to engage with inserting their view points and reflecting on them, it’s not for everyone, but I love it. With this one in particular, as I am mentally ill, I find I can connect to the feeling of not knowing which thing is real quite well. It’s nice, it makes me feel better that a movie showed some of the rougher parts of mental illness to an audience. I didn’t feel insulted or glorified by the movie, but of course, it’s a movie, and nothing’s entirely correct in a movie, it’s art. This one’s just closer to reality than most, especially for a comic book movie.
However, that’s just my take. I respect our differences. Nice video!
It's also just been a core part of the character since forever, and would not be faithful if they gave him a straight, clear cut origin story. This is actually why I was initially hesitant on the idea of this movie, cause I too have that similar investment problem he has, but I found the movie to have a surprising amount of investment despite so. Even if everything is questionable, its presented as feeling real to the character, which is all that matters. The only thing that's clear is like you said, there were many factors involved, which is also great. And as a fan of the Joker in general, I was also very hesitant of them giving him a clear origin story, but not only did they not do that, they still had me invested/gripped as if it was a clear story despite being multiple choice. I was surprised all around, it was both fancy/artsy and effective/impactful at the same time, which is a rare combination for me.
As you say, even with the same mental disorder for each person is different.
In the fall of the Joker I think he found pleasure in "violence" because when he committed the first murders it was the first time he felt "good", and later he was even recognized and approved by others.
In the other hand, a person with good treatment can be taken to other healthy ways of feeling fulfilled without going against the law.
@@Lena-L33
Yea, I imagined that if it wasnt 1981, video games alone wouldve helped him cope a lot. Violent video games in particular have shown decreased violence from youths or African areas known for violence since it acts as a surrogate, decreasing desire.
@@Alex_Logan22 then explain the mass surge in murders in the black communites since they been invented.....before video games chicago wasnt that bad.
Yes is really good, I have a son with autism and some times he laugh for no reason, the scene when he tries to make the kid laugh in the bus, and the mother rejected him, and then she show th card whit the disclousure of the illness almost make me cry😭 (sorry about my inglish by the way)
Just stresses the point of having a holster. Hilarious.
Same
I would've also advocated for some proper training. Especially after we saw his negligent discharge
@@firestorm165 I blame Randall.
none of the rest of it would have happened and he wouldn't have become the joker if he had just had a damned holster!
The Joker reminded me to seek help and change. I was so similar to Arthur for being way too nice everyone around me.. the anger and rage was accumulating slowly but surely.
Agreed and same here.
I think it was more a work of art and a character study. It wasn't intended to make grand statements about whether mental illness leads to violence or that society should look after the less fortunate to avoid violence. It was designed to make you think about something even larger. The world is becoming more and more difficult for a lot of people. At some point, breaking point is reached. It does encourage empathy. It's also about learning and trauma. Teach someone that their life is without value, or that SOME life is less valuable...this may be what happens.
I personally found the movie to be fascinating. Afterwards I was asking myself "who was the REAL narcissist in this movie?" While Penny Fleck may be a martyr/co dependent, I really feel that Thomas Wayne was likely an overt narc. HIs grandiose bids for office, his fury over losing his workers, his entitlement and show of violence (punching Arthur)...I think he took advantage of Penny bc she was a pretty girl in a subservient position. He had money and power and knew no one would believe her. He easily manipulated Penny to be his lover and then when she got pregnant, discarded them both bc they were no longer of use to him. It is very unlikely that a SINGLE woman would be legally allowed to adopt a child in the 50s/60s. I think Thomas Wayne gaslighted Penny into madness and let her have her child (by adoption) after she signed the NDA (as mentioned in the movie). He was cold and callous and left Penny & Arthur to rot.
Potentially. It implyed that it was a possibillity, but I think that it is interesting how many things are potentially implyed but never confirmed. With the fantasy elements intertwined too, you are also left asking what is actually real, versus Arthur's perspective. It leaves you with loose ends but also offers you possibilities. I really liked that. Also, was the shooting of the Waynes upon the instruction of the Joker? It is really awesome how it did that.
Anyway- any outrage at this movie is stupid and irritating. It was great.
punkybrewstar83 Arthur has already killed his mother. Perhaps finding the photo afterwards and realizing he may have murdered her in error contributed to his complete mental breakdown, and the multiple murders that followed.
@@PromiseFulfillled I didn't say that he hadn't killed his mother. That was obvious. At the the end though, the guy that shot the Waynes was the same guy who got Arthur out of the police car and put him down on the car bonnet. I am not sure why he would feel that killing his mother was a mistake. She abused him.
punkybrewstar83 cognitive dissonance
Oh my gosh! Thank you! I said the same thing. It was next to impossible for a single parent to adopt in the 1950s (if we're assuming this world closely matches are own, which I think it does). A man of Wayne's influence could have easily set it up to make her look crazy to avoid a scandal.
People’s fear of this movie may be a reflection of their fear of their own desire for violence. Just a thought
Absolutely. It's something that our society doesn't discuss.
That or they fear accepting that they're part of the problem
The fear is most likely due to media fixation on it being violent. Both Todd Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix have made statements indicating this.
Jüng, is that you?
It sounds like a common fear of crime, probably among people who grew up during the '80s, the movie's setting, due to the period's high crime rate, from '60s-70s riots, serial killers, subway muggings and the War On Drugs, and the resulting news coverage.
I love the idea of psych analysis of movie characters. Would you possibly analyze the title character in Donnie Darko?
Brody Flowers sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
Ugh, one of my favs
@@stvbrsn why are you wearing that funny man suit?
This film is an instant classic. I can't wait to re-watch it. There is a whole lot going on there.
@@saturatedcranium
Yeah, those are much more worthy of being called classics than the turkey called Joker.
The movie was simply a masterpiece. I nearly shed a tear when he danced on top of the burning car at the end. Beautiful. Eagerly anticipating a sequel.
the reason he doesn;'t find it great because the movie covers something he's expert on, so know that hollwood is bad with mentally ill movie,
@Nite Fang
Which is kinda weird, right? Cause it's still real to them which is all that matters, and a doctor treating someone like that should treat the delusions as real experiences right? I'm just assuming, I dont actually know which is why I'm asking.
Joaquin has said that he is not interested in doing a sequel. I'm assuming it was meant to be a stand alone movie.
@@sinead8369 I actually read that Joaquin is ok if they decide to make e sequel. Maybe he was not interested at first, but apparently he is changing his mind
hehe
@@The_ScapeGoat I always wanted a sequel, but I have to say, I completely agree with you. I actually changed my mind about the it, and I think it's cooler to let the viewers imagine what happened next after the events of the movie.
In his mums medical record it states something along the lines of 'he was abused by his mothers boyfriend very badly'..
Supposed to take it 'like a good little boy.'
@@keykey7646 I think they forgot to give him the memo.
I noticed that only a few friends of mine, who have experienced emotional / mental health issues, loved this movie. I also thought it was a great movie and that the character of Arthur was a masterpiece. Other acquaintances and coworkers dismissed the movie as BS. That I cannot understand.
This film accurately depicts the emotional toll that one can experience due to the lack of stability in their domestic life and society combined. Arthur suffers severe trauma, abuse, PTSD, etc.. constantly, while trying to be an honest and genuine human. No matter how often he chooses the virtuous path, there is always something lurking around the corner to dismantle him. It’s kind of fitting with the “nice guys finish last” ideology. When his mother has lied to him all his life, his coworker lies about the gun situation and he gets blamed for stealing the sign at work, being beaten mercilessly by strangers - it’s almost amounting to how many bad days can someone have before they completely snap? It’s enough to drive anyone to the brink of complete insanity. It has themes from the film “Falling Down” also in a way amongst others. This film should connect with audiences to become more empathetic to understand that those they engage with may be dealing with things they could never comprehend and to not judge but lend support and have a caring nature in general. Hopefully the theme isn’t misconstrued to be so negative but to show us to be better in our own daily lives of interacting with one another.
Amen
I've been eager to hear your take in this film.
The mental illness and society angle is what I think is what is making such an impact on audiences. The director tagged on some well know names such as Joker, Bruce Wayne and Thomas Wayne to make such a film more likely to be be seen by a wider audience. This could have ended up being an indie film with a small cult following compared to the major blockbuster movies that draw in general movie audiences without those small comic book connections. Regardless, it is making people think about and discuss mental health and that is certainly much better than belittling or ignoring it.
Omg, yes! ❤❤❤
People need to look at other people with mental health issues with a different perspective. Like, try to understand them. Doesn't excuse the negative behaviors towards others, but it explains it. When you know someone's history, you can better understand them. After all, WE ALL have something going on with us, or better yet, withIN us.
Agreed👏
You're right about the lies of the film makers. It's not a movie about the Joker. As for talking about mental disorders, I submit to you that talking about them based on inaccuracies is more dangerous than not talking about it. This movie was full of mental health inaccuracies.
Either way, it wouldn't have made a difference. Which is NOT to say the themes found in Joker are unworthy of exploration and discussion, cinematic or otherwise. A lot of people assume that when I say I hate the film, I think those are unimportant. It apparently never occurs to such people that a film dealing with those things might not be a good one by default. They are apples and oranges.
I respect your opinion.
I loved the movie. Acting is on-spot, especially from Joaquin Phoenix. Loved the plot.
In fact, saw it Saturday and most likely will see it this coming Saturday.
But it's refreshing to see an honest, intelligent, opinion and not someone who's trying to convey a random, political message and trying to disapprove a movie based off of this.
Cheers!
The movie "Nightcrawler" might also be a good one to review
He ll yeah! I loved Nightcrawler!
Thanks for reminding me of that one. Great.
I've haven't saw it before. Should I watch it?
@Edwin Requena okay bro I'm gonna watch both, I'm about to watch nightcrawler on Netflix, I'll let you know what I think of it afterwards. Cheers dude
Yes yes yes I want an analysis of nightcrawler
this movie displayed mental health perfectly. arthur might of already been suffering mentally but society sure did make it worse. you can only give out to the world what they give to you until eventually you find no purpose, Arthur was a harmless and soft man. he tried to communicate with people and just try to be himself even tho he was already suffering but when people keep dragging you down and betraying you, bullying you etc you become isolated and only comfortable around the people you’ve always known which is family, that’s why Arthur was so close with his mum because people made him feel like shit most probably from the beginning of time but you always try to be accepted because you think that ONE person will eventually be your friend and Arthur knew that was not happening. his brain could only stretch so far before he snapped. killing people isn’t exactly the way around doing things but when you go through years of abuse and bullying this is what leads people to react in a way that will make them feel liberated at last.
doctors will always call you “crazy” or diagnose you as “bipolar” by acting out of the ordinary but don’t justify the constant years of struggle and pain. so, was Arthur really crazy for putting an end to his suffering?
Best movie review ever 😊
I love how you break this down I learn something new every time you upload
arthur is the child of a narcicist mother who alienated him giving him fake memories, is too relatable for me tbh
I've. been reading these reviews for 40 minutes and you are the first person that talked about his mother. I totally agree. She had some major problems. Letting her son wash her in the tub, looked like he slept with her too.
After watching so many of your videos, I could actually tell that Arthur likely did not have NPD. and that he has more of Factor 2 rather than Factor 1 Psychopathy in him. And you said the same thing in this video. How cool is that?!!
The internet Armchair psychiatrist, who can diagnose someone of 3 different and notoriously difficult to diagnose personality disorders and co-morbid mood disorders after watching them for just 2 hours. Just because you watch some videos or read some articles on diagnostic criteria doesn't mean you can adequately psychoanalyze a violent felon. That's hilariously naive.
@@tyrellwilson9334 I am afraid that you have misunderstood my comment due to an illogical assumption. I never mentioned that I can after watching these videos adequately psychoanalyse anyone; simply because I am not formally trained in this field. The actual point is, that the fact that I could with no training of this kind, apply some of the knowledge that Doc Grande has shared through his many videos and make a conjecture which eventually and incidentally he as an expert concluded in this video. It is a testament to how capable Doc Grande is and how standardized and logical his diagnosis always is.
@@anirex911 "Illogical assumption"? "Misunderstood"? You literally, explicitly stated that he has a Factor 1 psychopathic disposition and even compared that to having a Factor 2 psychopathic disposition. I didn't assume anything, you literally diagnosed him symptomatically, meaning that you psychoanalyzed someone, and then used the fact that you watched these videos as proof of your credibility and evidence of your diagnosis being adequate. I'm afraid YOU'RE making the mistake here.
You can make a conjecture on people's behavior, beliefs, mannerisms, habits, that is perfectly within any well socialized humans capabilities as a social animal. But a medical diagnosis exists solely for the purpose of clinicians and researchers to assume that all members of a group exhibiting the same behavior that the diagnosis stipulates are generally homogeneous in the underlying nature of the illness, regardless of whether there is some variability in the presentation of symptoms or circumstances surrounding illness onset in order to simply research into that pathology or to simplify treatment, It is only for a doctor to use when deciding how to treat a patient or a researcher for simplifying research. It is certainly not some personality trait or label to be thrown around in RUclips comments and slapped onto characters. Your conjecture is fundamentally flawed, because you lack the knowledge and training to use a diagnosis at all, and you're completely misusing diagnosis, you're not a doctor, it's no more simpler than that.
Do you know what the standardized tests are for a personality disorder that is extremely difficult to conclusively diagnose? I'll give you a hint: it is not a doctor calling someone a psychopath with a sample size of no more than two hours of behavior. There is nothing standardized or logical about his or your diagnosis. Arthur has no detectable history of antisocial behavior or conduct disorder during adolescence which are required for a diagnosis, He can't ask Arthur any questions about his life so he has nothing to work with, he even admitted that Arthur is not narcissistic, manipulative, or callous, making it impossible for him to be a psychopath. Also, just because you happen to reach similar answers is not attributable to his knowledge as a doctor. You can both be wrong, for example.
@@tyrellwilson9334 Thanks for all this information, but I will still request that you read my original comment again. "I could actually tell that Arthur likely did not have NPD" is totally different from "I am certain that Arthur could never be diagnosed as of having NPD." That there is what you can call explicitly stating.
When we watch a football match, we often comment on how the player should have passed the ball to x instead of y and that might have lead to a more favourable result. Are we all expert football coaches? No. We apply what little knowledge we have learnt/collected from various sources, theoretical or empirical and make a conjecture based on presuppositions that we care capable of making using said knowledge. What I have done here is the same thing. Also, Doc always puts forth his disclaimer that he has not interviewed these subjects personally and that he himself is opining. And not that what he is saying is 100% correct. And if I learn from these opinions, apply them and can sort of guess what I have mentioned in the original comment, how can anyone try to judge if what I have conjectured is professionally accurate?
Therefore as mentioned earlier, illogical assumption. 'Being able to tell' is not equal to 'diagnosing.' And definitely not so when Doc himself is not diagnosing anyone.
@@anirex911 Bruh, it is a statistical reality that literally everyone you ever meet is highly unlikely to have NPD, It has a very low rate of diagnosis, "I could actually tell that Arthur likely did not have NPD" is just meaningless tautology in that case, So I don't even know what the point of that comment was anymore.
""I am certain that Arthur could never be diagnosed as of having NPD." That there is what you can call explicitly stating."
Definition of explicit: Clear and exact. You *clearly* and *exactly* stated that Arthur was a psychopath and I explained why it was impossible for you to know enough about Arthur to make a diagnosis.
"Are we all expert football coaches?" This analogy makes sense and definitely helped me to understand what you meant. While you can make a judgement with enough information that some is narcissistic the same way you can judge a player's actions, meaning you know they have an exaggerated sense of self importance and entitlement, manipulative and deceitful behavior, and lack of empathy, then sure, you can believe that they're narcissistic. But Narcissistic Personality Disorder is an entirely different topic. Knowing that someone is selfish or arrogant is comparable to knowing that a player made a mistake. But being able to diagnose a personality disorder is actually exactly like being an expert football player. Just as you should refrain from analyzing world class football players if you're not an expert football player, You need to refrain from diagnosing a personality disorder If you aren't an experienced clinician and using standardized tests in a controlled environment.
You and the doctor explicitly used medical diagnosis to explain Arthur's behavior and thoughts and then attributed those behaviors and thoughts to a medical diagnosis, what you both did was diagnose someone and you did it unfairly, If that's not what you meant to do, then I apologize for the past walls of text, but that was indeed the language you used.
Calling someone antisocial and saying that someone is a psychopath is like the difference between saying that someone has a blocked nose and saying someone has a deviated septim due to nasal cancer. The former is an observation of the person which anyone can make and has the right to make of course, or as you said it 'Being able to tell', while the latter is using a medical diagnosis that is impossible to know given the circumstances. If that makes sense.
I have bipolar 2 skitzoeffecrive and skitzophrenia and how the movie was jumbled remind me of when I've been in delusional phycosiss
Lily Rachel which makes me wonder if this guy is a real Dr
You can’t have all 3 at once. You usually have one of those with overlap of symptoms of the other
Best expert opinion, yet!
Same tbh
Liz Go
He is a boring ass nerd with a just a logical/analytical thought process.
Respect to you! I think you are the one of the most analytical and precise Dr. on you tube! I was waiting for this video, thank you! Very precise, like always!
Very true!!
And I learnt a new word..discombobulated ..how have I gone my whole life not knowing that word. ?🤔
That's a good point about the fantasy. But I think the scene of Arthur fantasising about high praise from Robert Deniro reflects back on the fact that he's fantasising of having a father figure and also being seen positively by a father figure.
Wow, thank you for your analysis. I learned a lot here and everything you say makes perfect sense. Personally, I love this film and have seen it twice but I do get why it would leave some underwhelmed.
First, I agree that the film's handling of mental illness is a bit shallow and jumbled. I read that the Phoenix didn't want to depict a mental illness that could be easily recognized to avoid accusations of exploiting real mental illness for the sake of art. I think it's silly, but I have notice a lot of complaints over the insensitivity of portraying mental illness in entertainment. I personally wished the film had further explored Arthur's experience with his medication, as I have witnessed that some medications seem to radically change one's personality, especially once one stops taking them.
Second, I think the story feels a bit flat because it isn't complete. Arthur doesn't really become Joker until the end of the movie, and even then Arthur's Joker is still in its infancy. The ending should have read 'To Be Continued' because the Joker and Batman archetypes are just being born. If they were to do a sequel I think they should continue the story from Bruce's point of view as a child struggling with PTSD, and channeling his feelings of trauma into the creation of Batman.
Actually, could you do a video on the psychological development of Bruce Wayne into Batman? It's been said that he and the Joker are reflections of one another. Do you agree?
Wow, a sequel to this being Bruce’s POV now would be perfect! It would lead on perfectly and be a great reason to continue this exploration and exposition of true mental health disorders!
It’s shallow because those aspects weren’t what was being developed. I think the movie had more to do with socioeconomics
He stopped receiving his medications. Maybe that does not explain his growing troubles completely, but could explain the jumbled narrative :)
To be honest, I actually had asked this question myself many times. I never expected a video about this particular character but after seeing that movie I kind of wondered haha. It's really interesting and really cool to see this as a topic just for general curiosity, even if he's a fictional character the movie did seem to cover the basis hugely on the topic of the mental health stigma issue we have in our society. It's great to see the points made by a professional on a topic about this, being as the mental health stigma in our society actually seems to have been the worst it's ever been as of late... So many people with mental health issues are treated so poorly. They are often judged, disliked, and even have wide spread subtle attacks of rumors and gossip which ruins their reputation or how people view them as a person which is both irritating and very sad to witness, and probably nightmarish to experience personally. People jump to conclusions and hate these people just because they have a mental disorder.. or how their mental disorder causes them to act a certain way in which a lot of the time they are unable to control.
But being as Joker is a fictional movie. The point behind it was cleverly put together in showing the perspective of a person who has been through the very worst of a decline in their mental health due to constant mistreatment and abuse that is a very real issue everyday for thousands or even millions of people. While it does not justify the evil actions in certain parts of the movie nearing the ending.. it still does cover a deep 3rd person and even first person perspective of the lifestyle some people unfortunately experience. The mental health stigma seems to be even worse in other nations who lack knowledge with mental illness. But the issue I have with our society is how we have people preaching equal rights but fail to deliver the same positive goals for people who have mental illness or disabilities as well. While I am completely for equal rights for everyone. I feel 98% of the time people who suffer from mental ailments are often still mistreated even by those who jump on the equality train and it's truly sad and extremely unfair.
I hope the mental health mistreatment and stigma becomes more of a topic to hopefully aid in the understanding of mental disorders, it's very heart breaking to see so many individuals who have mental illness being treated as if they aren't even human. Aside from my tangent though.. I am thankful for this entire topic and video. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and professional perspective on this Dr. Grande. I am always glad to expand my knowledge on psychology with your channel.
For me, this movie is probably one of the most important movies I've ever seen in my entire life.
With the fear of sounding like a pretentious gatekeeper, this is the kind of movie where you either get it or you don't.
For me it hit so hard and so deep that it kinda left me in shock when I saw it and when I tried to talk to my bf about it a couple of days later I just cried and cried and cried.
To me it doesn't matter what diagnosis Arthur has. I also disagree that the take away is that we should be better to each other because we might just create a monster if we aren't.
I dunno. I don't feel like this movie is trying to lecture the viewer on what they should and shouldn't do. It's showing the complexity of a society where people don't communicate. The entire scene between Arthur and Murray is a prime example of that miscommunication between classes and mentally sane vs. mentally unsane people etc.
My dad has this little quote he always chuckles over and it goes like this:
Everybody is just walking around, thinking about themselves. Nobody is thinking about me but me.
That's one of the main themes in Joker for me.
I also really love the film for the level of empathy it shows toward people who are struggling in life. It's not condoning that behavior or taking responsibility away from people like Arthur, it's simply just there to show what it's like to be him.
And then there's the layer added on top that you can trust nothing you see or hear because it's the Joker and the Joker prefers his backstory to be multiple choice. That's also why it makes no sense trying to diagnose him because you can never know what the truth is with him.
You said you didn't think he was a pathological liar, but I think he is. I think the entire movie is filled with pathological lies and you are only shown what he wants you to see.
That might be offputting to some people, but that's what makes me love this film so much. It really is a very, very complex film if you let yourself get sucked in and you pay attention to all the little details.
The second time I watched it and I saw the rich guys on the train come toward Arthur while singing showtunes it made me realize that that was most likely a delusion seemlessly being woven into reality and that made me stop and think that it's probably 50/50 with what's real and what is delusion.
I’ve been waiting for this video! I’m excited to see if you and I are on the same page with his diagnoses!
I love this movie, I've seen it twice. I saw another video that claimed Joaquin Phoenix wanted to portray the character in such a way that a psychiatrist wouldn't be able to easily diagnose him....hmmmn.
The fact that real people are making videos trying to diagnose a fictional character based off of a comic book is a testament to the films brilliance.
The way the Joker spirals down in relation to the injustice done to him is similar to the character Michal Douglas played in Falling Down. Might be interesting to do some day.
I think that’s a valid comparison also...They need to leave taxi driver alone
Just keep in mind Arthur before his med problems was committed to Arkham. He even said that HE WAS HAPPIER INSIDE way before the very last scene in the Arkham office. He obviously had anger violence impulse control issues, BEFORE healthcare cuts and teen street beating.
i empathized so much for him so much throughout this movie, it broke me.
I think The Joker plays on our deep-seated negative primal emotions when we're invalidated, made to feel weak or powerless, and escalates that to the highest degree without inhibition. In a way it dramatizes the ideas or fantasies one might have after experiencing strong negative emotions. Things we wish we could do in the moment, but most never do. Those tend to be fleeting emotions that may lie beneath the surface but can be roused very quickly, at least in my own experience.
I feel that level of resentment and malice at times, but I relate far more to Batman than I do the Joker. I'm more of the remove the "evil" of society by any means necessary. There are sheep, and there are wolves, but I see myself as the shepherd, with compassion for the sheep and an eye on the wolves.
Now if I peel back another layer of the onion that I am, my truest desire is to keep everyone content and peaceful with one another, to show love and compassion to myself and others no matter what. That is the trueness of my soul and I believe, probably naively, everyone's soul. That very human and vulnerable side of us can get covered by the layers we develop through experience, environment, and genetics perhaps..
I really like listening to you speak Dr. Grande, your perspective is always so thoughtful and genuine and invokes interesting ideas to think about!
The whole point of the confusion in reality for the audience, is to display just a fraction of Joker's mind.
I absolutely love the seriousness with with Dr. Grande presents the diagnosis of a totally fictional character 😂
Great video! i could see a lot of myself in Arthur Fleck.. I came from a narcissistic mother and violent father, witnessed violence in the home and bullied through out school.. these days i let Karma do its job! I like how the film showed how someone can be on the brink of madness and fall over the edge! But i am also living proof that it can not only go one way(bad) ...A master piece of a movie and maybe vocalises all the things i wanted to say but internalised it! Great job Phoenix
Another great expert opinion!
I saw Joker last night. I had to walk out and take a breather for about five minutes. As someone with mental illness, I believe the movie portrays mental illness as mainly a systemic issue. This is just simply not the full truth. I also think the movie may not help with the stigma against mental illness. I am afraid the movie will contribute to viewers believing violence and mental illness is heavily related. I agree with you strongly regarding that point. I also think viewers could perceive the movie as justifying violence or at least blurs the line of justifying violence.
Joker is just a movie and the component of violence is important to the storyline of Joker and Gotham. I hope the audience remembers that before relating mental disorders to violent actions.
I live in South America and my country sometimes becomes chaotic in various ways.
I can assure that there are disasters with the issue of social assistance as in the film, for example there are many people working in positions for those who are not really trained. Therapists can get to talk more with the patient by discharging his frustration at a dismissal. It is what generates living in a society in a constant of insecurity, frustration, instability, etc.
I can assure you that many things of that Gotham city are real for certain places and countries.
Still another great expert opinion!
There's also marked C-PTSD.
I feel that maybe there's some sort of Dissociative Identity Disorder going on there as well. What do you think, Todd?
Movie reminds me of "falling down" especially relates to me when I was a kid I used to have anger issues where I sometimes said alarming things that could have gotten me arrested, but nowadays I can be in the most stressful of situations and can walk and chew gum no problem. Especially in prison and jail (as a guard and deputy)
"Doing the right thing with the desire to be kind" yes exactly. I was talking to someone about it earlier and they said they appreciate that maybe people are gonna do the right thing out of fear of what could happen to them, but I don't think that's healthy at all. I think the movie clearly showed a society that's cold and uncaring, and that should make people think and want to be more kind.
I saw it somewhere in between, that people would be better not out of fear to themselves or even others, but to decrease the rampant growth in killers. Less self preservation and more self realization. Everything is more of a side effect domino that takes time to build up into something that may end up happening elsewhere long after one's interaction.
Yup!
The gothic. ARTHUR wasn't doing the right thing either. He killed the subway drunks but one guy tried to escape with bleeding leg, he was NO LONGER A THREAT Arthur didn't have to chase and kill him. He also killed Randall who came over to show respect to Arthur for mom's death. Also all the rest were over the top. But even before all this he had to do serious damage to get committed to Arkham then start pounding his head once detained.
@@notsogreen Randall came over to make sure he wouldn't talk to the cops about the gun. And yes, I'm aware of those things. I wasn't refering to Arthur, but to people's reaction after watching the movie, and what Dr. Grande said.
@@winternightmarecrochet I know you weren't referring to Arthur but MANY said Arthur did no wrong he was justified. It was entertaining watching his moves but he wasn't right, even at Wayne mansion he didn't have to almost choke to death one of the staff. No good reason to do in Randall. Arthur ratted out Randall to his co workers about the gun. Randall didn't rat. Big deal if he gave Arthur the gun that was for just in case, not shoot to the very end even if they're NOT a threat anymore.
I actually just said the one of my cousins while talking about this movie today that the first two people he shot on the subway was definitely justified self defense as they were kicking the crap out of him. He loses the self defense protection when he hunts down the third man and kills him.
For awhile this was like that old Charles Bronson movie about the vigalante Death Wish.
The story starts out with clear-cut thievery of sign and vicious beating but gets murky as it introduces Joker's hostile attitude and distorted thinking (hallucinations). "A Beautiful Mind" also had extended scenes which turned out to be unreal. I don't like this technique of moviemaking because we never really know what goes on in a person's mind and it tricks the viewer.
That is a common interpretation of the scene and the law I have seen elsewhere.
I believe the scene is a mixture of Truth and fantasy because the director intentionally showed Arthur shooting too many bullets from a handgun.
However, generally everything in the movie where something bad is happening to Arthur is real and everything good happening to him is a fantasy and the director put in color cues to what was real and what was fantasy. I recommend you check out some of the videos about that on RUclips. Fascinating stuff.
Those guys couldn't carry a tune to save their lives 😆
Dr. Grande creates video that spoils the entire plot of The Joker
Everyone is immensely traumatized because the plt is spoiled before they can see it
They need to start having sessions with Dr. Grande to get over it
PROFIT!!!!
(I'm JK Dr. Grande! Another awesome video from your channel. So many people are going to have to go watch the movie again with the new understanding of the character's psyche!)
Actually, it's better to know the play, opera, movie before seeing it. We can send Dr. Grande the 15.00 we would have spent seeing it twice...….. It sounds like Joaquin Phoenix un-sexied himself real good.
Health of the world is in number Please?
Thank you for this analysis, Dr. Grande. I'm currently a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling so it is extremely helpful for me to hear a professional, like yourself, diagnose characters that I'm familiar with. It's a nice departure from the usual textbook and lecture material. Coincidentally, I had just read information on PBA and find the topic fascinating. There are certainly many overlaps in medicine and psychology in terms of symptoms and comorbidity, as you've alluded to. Anxiety symptoms and hyperthyroidism are another two that come to mind. I'm looking forward to more of your videos.
THANK YOU for posting this! I've been waiting for you to discuss about this movie ❤
It’s funny that we had such different opinions about the movie. As a writer, a fan of the comics, and a mentally ill person I absolutely loved the story and this way of looking at the Joker. I really related to certain parts of the movie and to the message that we should be trying for understand and empathize with other people more rather than jay writing them off and only seeing things from our own perspective. I think the most poisonous thing in this entire world is the lack of empathy humans tend to have for each other.
I went in not knowing if I was gong to love or hate the movie, and I ended up loving it. In my opinion this is only a potentially dangerous movie if people can’t think critically about the content they’re consuming.
As always, loved your take on this even if I didn’t agree!
l found the 2019 Joker not to be so high functioning. Seems his narcissistic mother wounded him even further and contributed to his psychopathy and sociopathy. He seemed in the beginning to be more covert with his ideas and then seemed not to respond to or particularly resist counseling. He became more grandiose in the end, not accepting himself as ordinary and so much reminded me of a manic depressant! A little like the psychopath in “Silence of the lambs” not Lecter but the protege.👍
Light Walkers Yes, I thought of the skin guy from silence of the lambs too, along with Danny Devito in Throw Momma from the Train
the fact that we don't know if it was real or not is the brilliant thing abut it
Akamo I think it was a ‘dream’ and he is a narcissist
Agree
I remember a long time ago, I was supporting a person who suffered with pathological laughing + when I saw The Joker movie, the laughing reminding me of this
goddamn you look...healthy
@@guineapig55555 And somebody looks....thirsty 😄
Also the fact that this movie is set in the 80s, and the field of psychology has progressed since then.
What the movie does right is that they show how society, in the form of among others Murray Franklin, is being judgmental and assumptionate against outsiders, instead of trying to be understanding and supportive. This is even more true today.
All in was a great analysis and really insightful but you lost me when you said your metric for a good movie was if you wanted a sequel, thats a strange opinion to hold to me because some of the best movies, to me, i would NEVER want a sequel to!
That's possibly because most Oscar-winners are usually dramas, without sequels.
It is amazing how a movie can create such an entertaining and serious clinical conversation.
Dr. Grande is my new found idol. Concerning this video, he has analyzed the narrative construct of the film so clearly that film critics should learn the way to review the movie particularly the movie having mental health component!! Great work Dr Grande, highly appreciated!! Love from Nepal.
I watched many reactions of people who watched the teaser trailer and the final trailer for Joker and almost everyone felt sorry for Arthur and so did I. I think that sometimes people are cruel to people who are different, whether it's because they look different or act different. This movie is telling us to be more kind and compassionate to others, not out of fear of violence but because it's the right thing to do. Killing others is certainly wrong but he was tired of being a victim.
Love this Dr Grande. The brain damage helped explain a lot. I mean people are suggesting Arthur changed to Joker because of his upbringing and dire life and this is why the movie is dangerous etc. There was a part where his adopted mothers mental health was revealed with NPD. So Arthur's mental problems are not genetic but more the way she treated him. She might well have dropped him as a baby. He certainly had physical abuse from her partner when he was a child. I would say a physial disorder of laughter and crying would have cut him from reality and lead him to depression. I understand what you mean about real and not real butt I am guessing a lot of this plus Joker moments and Bruce Wayne where put in for fans. I am well pleased that the film has made people think about mental health. You are brilliant at putting structure and meaning into everything you do. I have learnt a lot from these videos 😊
I think reviewing more movies and their portrayal of mental illness would be very interesting, especially with someone with as in-depth a knowledge as yours.
Best part of the day, watching Dr Grande 💛
If anything I think this movie provided awareness.
Frank Umile definitely
2:20 "that's a strange comment for a psychotherapist or a social worker to make, even if it were true" ... you mean, she was actually kind enough to be honest with him? **gasp** .. i mean, when I watched that scene, I felt thankful to her that she was at least being honest, because... let's be clear, bureaucracies (government or otherwise) generally don't care about people that fall out of the system. Regarding fantasy/reality/memories, I'm going to re-watch it, I suspect there are slight variations in the colour grain of the scenes depending on whether it's a memory/fantasy/reality
My current running theory, is that the whole movie was a joke on the audience, the whole thing was a fictional story told to the psychiatrist at the end of the film, Arthur isn't delusional/schizophrenic, he's a murderous psychopath/narcissist, and the audience gave sympathy to the devil, pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game.
18:50 I didn't see it this way at all, the film wasn't glorifying violence, it wasn't saying "do the right thing or you'll get your wrath" it was saying that this is an inevitable consequence of a society that alienates people and disenfranchises them, given that we are facing a lot of potential catastrophes, a new financial crash, a growing wealth gap, climate change and associated disasters, this movie was just piggybacking off the back of the current state of play, in my view, it's a warning that things are about to become more turbulent, if you don't believe it, just wait and see in about 5-10 years, if things don't change within the current system society is going to have some troubles ahead.
I would love to hear you do guided meditations or hypnosis. Perfect voice and tone. Gotta admit, been using your vids for sleep.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m quite happy with your content and how you deliver but I can’t deny the soothing effects (or affects, not sure) your videos have on me.
If i also may suggest a character study on the British drama series Sherlock staring Benedict Cumberbatch. It is well worth the watch "to an extent".
I'm very glad to hear a mental health professionals opinion on this movie. I awknowledge that it is a great movie in many aspects but the connection between mental illness and violence made me VERY uncomfortable. Feels good to be validated, as most people disagree with me on that point. :')
I enjoyed the film although I also didn't like that they seemed to tie mental illness and violent tendencies together. I like your analysis and breakdown of the symptoms he presented. It's nice to hear what's going on from a professional perspective
Happy you enjoyed the movie. Though sensing lots of mental health professionals here, we need to lighten up on violence being connected mental illness a lot. Example: On SVU one might as well be jack the ripper than have BPD. :)
@@suzanneseitz6655 agreed.
J I don’t completely believe that they completely connected violent tendencies to mental illness. Remember the scene where he’s talking the guy in Arkham’s mental hospital and asks if people got there from crime and the guy answered that some did? To me that shows the movies attempt to display that this isn’t the case for everyone, joker just happens to be one of the people who are violent.
They didn't tie those two together inorganicaly. His mental illness is just one factor but a person is more than just a mental illness they have. It's clear he has other personal issues that extend beyond his mental illness alone. A combination of factors from his environment, and the anger he felt contributed to his violence, not solely his condition. That definitely left him spiralling after he ran out of meds
@@alexarias5717 I didn't say it was inorganic or poorly executed. My problem was that most of the time mental illness is illustrated in media the people are almost always violent while statistically that is not the case in real life. I'm just not happy that most films seem to always pick the mentally ill people are violent narrative.
Joaquin has stated in several interviews that he believes Arthur has PTSD and that that is how he played the character. Seeing as he allegedly has a troubled past himself, it would make sense how he managed to lend such a believability to the character. That's very often comorbid with ASPD. Often complex PTSD is the cause.
*Arthur tried to seek help, but failed. So sad some villains don't have a chance.*
I get your preoccupation about making the link between mental illness and violence but its a masterpiece. The mainstream public needed a movie like this. Too much commercial movies lately.
Thanks, I’d really like t see an analysis of how society came to start having contempt for men and young men. And maybe what we can possibly. Do in our encounters with some of these marginalised men to let them know that they are valued and needed in society.
The Joker didn't just have general mental health issues, he was psychopath. He talked about not feeling bad after the killings, in-fact he seemed calmed by it. It reminded me of Dexter, a moral psychopath.
After Arthur’s boss accused him of stealing the “everything must go” sign, I kept looking for the sign in his apartment (as an indication that the assault never happened)
The sign was destroyed. This is validated by the scene where he is given a gun. He was given a gun because the assualt really happened. However, his relationship with his neighbor was psychosis and compared primarily of ideation and fantasy.
TacticsTechniques&Procedures well, thanks for replying, but I don’t think so. How can the scene where Randall gives him the gun be seen as validation for the assault? That scene itself is called into question later on.
@@stvbrsn Arthur's back had a huge black and blue mark near right shoulder blade going down. He dropped gun at children's hospital that's why he was FIRED. His boss told detectives why Arthur was fired. But Arthur lied and said his boss didn't like his jokes.
If he was going to take the sign he would've just brought it back to store. More likely he went back home or emergency room. Why take the sign if you're not going directly back to store because you're too bruised, battered.and stunned.
@@stvbrsn when was Arthur getting gun from Randall ever questioned? Arthur said to all his coworkers that Randall gave him the gun...so he ratted Randall out. Where was that scene in doubt
I suffered from pseudobulbar affect after suffering a stroke but to my surprise my doctor suggested using cough syrup and it worked!! I no longer laugh inappropriately under stressful or emotional events!! Always informative videos!! Thank you!!
I think the most poignant part of the movie is when Arthur addresses Murray and tells him , “If it was me dying on the sidewalk you’d walk right over me.”
Kinda sad when you think about it in terms of our society.
I’ve never watched a movie like this before, but after hearing your review I’m going to. It sounds very interesting. Thank you.👍👍👍
this was so well-thought and presented perfectly, great video!! ♥️♥️♥️
Thank you, for this in depth breakdown of Joaquin's Joker. I think this lends more evidence to the theory that it was all a story crafted by the ever manipulative Joker in the white room scenes of the movie.
"Stresses the importance of having a holster"
😂😂😂
Could you do an analysis on Anton Chigurh from No Country For Old Men? He's a terrifying character.