FINAL RECKONING: Winners And Losers In The Yom Kippur Air War
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- The 1973 Yom Kippur War was one of the highest intensity conflicts of the Cold War era. Israel and the Egyptian-led Arab alliance threw everything in their arsenals at each other, with the fortunate omission of Israel’s nuclear stockpile. Support from the US on one side and the Soviet Union on the other allowed the conflict to carry on long past the exhaustion of the pre-war stocks of vehicles and weapons on either side.
Over a thousand tactical fighters took part and many hundreds were shot down. 50 years on, the proportion of those that were the victims in an air-to-air fight remains the source of some debate and conjecture.
In this video I try to make sense of the statistics and come to a more accurate view on the kill ratio achieved by the IDF/AF. I also take a look at the lessons learned by the US Air Force and Soviet Union and how that shaped their air superiority strategy over the 1970s and early '80s.
I hope you enjoy this one. I've had fun researching this conflict and period of history. I've also enjoyed the comments. Recognising that this is still a contentious war 50 years on, please do remember that this is an aviation, not a geopolitics channel. If I have said something about the various actors that you believe to be factually incorrect then its unintentional. Polite, constructive comments are always well received.
Major sources:
Arab MiGs Volumes 5 and 6 by Tom Cooper, David Nicolle et al was a great source of pilot interviews
aces.safarikovi... details the Israeli kill claims
The declassified Weapons Systems Evaluation Group report titled 'Assessment of the weapons and tactics used in the October 1973 Middle East War' provided some data on weapon effectiveness and employment
'The Air Superiority Battle in The Middle East, 1967-1973' by Major Clarence E. Olschaner was useful
in summarising contemporary data and US beliefs about the relative statistical performance of the air arms
Drew Paper #31 from the Air University, titled 'The Yom Kippur War and the Shaping of the United States Air Force' helped me understand lessons learned and provided some statistics
'Battlefield Air Interdiction in the 1973 Middle East War and its Significance to NATO Air Operations' by Major Bruce A. Brant was also helpful in understanding tactical implications
K.V. Sukhov's Operations of Air Forces Over The Syrian Front provided loss data for that theatre
As a viewer from India, thanks for the Yom Kippur vids! Can you make some videos on the Indo Pak air wars of 1965 and 1971, 'cause they are so underrated?
Those conflicts were some of the largest and most important of the post-war era. Yet it's almost impossible to find anything about them in the west.
I for one would love to hear more about these conflicts.
I'd love to learn more about them, but unfortunately it's very difficult to try and discern the truth of them. Both sides have so heavily propagandized everything around them such that it's almost impossible to find a reliable source, especially in English.
@@EvilTwinn Sadly yep. Shiv Kunal Verma's 1965: A Western Sunrise is pretty good though, it is one of the few books I've sen that actually is quite impartial to both sides (it pans Indian DefMin YB Chavan and Army Chief General Chaudhury quite hard)
The Print did a good presentation of the air war in one of those, really whet my appetite for what you suggest from our host
To quote Brezhnev.
We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, "Save me!" He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."
4 November1973
losers go together, to these days
except that they literally did send a nuclear submarine and that's how the war ended with all of Sadat's goals achieved, so I'm not sure where you got this from but a good goy will always be a good goy
Why Brezhnev was so concerned. He knew that his garrison of Red Army were kicked out of Egypt by Sadat, and Sadat political moves are more and more distancing him from the Soviet.
@@abenalif2147 Because the anti-aircraft systems were operated by technicians from the Soviet Union, Israeli paratroopers destroyed the anti-aircraft systems and eliminated the operators
@@gabrieljoseph6310 Like the leaders care.
A Hip...shotgunned a fighter that was UNDER it with rockets?
No, you can't put that in a movie, nobody would believe it.
Helicopter prop wash is no joke. You can look at videos all day of planes flying through prop wash and tumbling around.
Meanwhile in the Gulf War, an F 15 scored an air to air kill... with a bomb
In Vietnam a A-4 Skyhawk shot down a MiG-17 with unguided (Zuni?) Rockets
@@Sturminfantrist It wasn't so much the rockets that impressed me as it was a plane going under a helicopter. Sounds like a bad action movie scene.
This was really happened, the Egyptian Pilot found himself face to face with F4, after wrong maneuver from the F4, the Israeli's F4 pilot was very over confidence, as he has the upper hand, Jet against Hel, and he acted accordingly, and the Egyptian Pilot fired in one push trigger all his 2 pod stores up to 64 rockets 57MM unguided rockets fitted under side wings at the F4, who received those rockets directly, it was the very first incidence in history, from skilled and brave helicopter pilot against reckless Israeli's jet pilot
My father worked as an Engineer at McDonnell during this time.
They were taking whole rear half’s of F-4s of the assembly line to send to Israel, and everyone was working full time + hours to replace the rear sections and create replacement parts for F-4s with battle damage.
He also latter worked on the famous IDF F-15 that lost its right wing in the air to air collision with the A-4. If I remember correctly, they took a right wing off another F-15 being assembled to ship over.
Indians never had much issue with su 7s , it is said that due to powers that may be in new delhi many su 7s started to arrive in late 60s , indians removed the rocket boosters for quick take off but retained the drag chute .
Mostly these were used for air interdiction missions during day time due to their durability in ack ack fire , su 7 had very bad cockpit vision .
They had very poor range, were massive and fuel guzzlers.
Many indian pilots made it alive even after badly damaged aircrafts, infact this is thw reason indian airforce loved this plane , for its durability.
I know the name of your channel suggests otherwise, but I would love to see you make content on early precision munitions in Vietnam and the pre-Vietnam era. It would be interesting to see how their capability helped usher in the supremacy of multi role fighters and made single role aircraft like pure air to air thoroughbreds and heavy bombers less common. Especially considering how expensive modern aircraft are, having a F/A makes much more fiscal sense than having aircraft with such narrow capabilities.
Agreed 100%.
Also a history of anti radiation missiles, both US and Soviet
The F/A does sacrifice some performance to a pure fighter. The posterchild for the pure fighter is the F-15, which has a perfect combat record. Designing an airframe for the structural requirements to carry any meaningful amount of ordinance works against the goal of getting the maximum performance. For example, the twin engine F15 weighed only 31,000 lb. dry and could achieve speeds of Mach 2.8 vs the rather anemic M 1.6 of the F-35A. The single F-35A, the lightest of the F-35 family weighs in at porky 29,300 lb and was designed only for 7.1 G maneuver, while the F-15 and F-16 are both rated at 9G. Like so many things, being the jack of all trades is a very good thing and as you suggest, is indeed a less expensive way to go, but if the goal is air dominance and you think that you will face modern, dedicated stealth fighter like the J-20, you better come to the fight with something better than the F-35. This is why the Air Force wants to retire the F-22. They need the money to fund the development of the NGAD fighter.
@@shenmisheshou7002 It's not particularily fair to call the F-35 porky when it's single engine is beefy enough to be comparable to some twin engine jets. And another reason for this is the higher fuel fractions which means the F-35 has much greater range than the F-15.
@@georgethompson1460 Did you not get that the porky comment was with respect to the weight vs the F15, a 45 year old design that goes Mach 2.8 vs the F-35s Mach 1.6 and could maneuver at 9G vs the 7.1 G of the F-35? I think the F-35 is an attractive plane, by in the context of my statement, I was simply saying that as compared to the F15, the F-35 seems far heavier than the F15 and therefore not as fast or maneuverable, though like the F-22, I think it would come out on top in a battle with a Chinese spy balloon, which is the only enemy the F-22 has ever shot down.
The Shrike missile was a Sparrow with a different seeker. Not a kludge, but it had the limitations of the Sparrow - range, warhead size, and speed. The Standard ARM, also an adaptation, had a warhead over a third larger, was a bit faster, and compared to the A-version Shrike, about 6X the range (2X the B version).
Thank you!
IIRC the standard arm also had a limited position memory system, in case the radar switched off. Would certainly explain the significant cost over the shrike.
The Sparrow was developed by Raytheon while the Shrike was developed by China Lake.
There were no developmental relations between the two missile and so they were unrelated.
The Sparrow's motor however was briefly adapted for early Shrikes till it was replaced with a dedicated, cheaper motor.
There's a full hour documentary on the Shrike, I encourage you to watch it. Using the Sparrow rocket was actually a later decision when the initial propulsion package of four solid rockets proved unreliable. It was the seeker that was first developed and the core around with everything else followed. The form factor followed development of the seeker and warhead
Babe, wake up, NAPFATG uploaded.
It's Friday and we all known what that means! Another upload from "Not a Pound...". He has quickly reached the upper echelons of aviation content on youtube.
Given the current lack of munitions (and ability to produce them) in the west for the Ukraine war, it seems that the lesson of the Yom Kippur War were either forgotten or not really learned.
Also Sec Gates capping the Raptor production at 186…
@@ronjon7942 yes, the raptor seems like a project that was shafted from virtually every angle. It's actually surprising that the aircraft is as good as it is - and it is very good.
Peacetime militaries fundamentally will not understand the use rates of a wartime military. Some of this is that the people buying the kit can't believe it, and demand they get more 'realistic' numbers for usage; some of this is the brass picking another shiny toy over munitions that they _probably_ won't need anyway.
@@boobah5643 I expect that you are right about all of that. What a sh*t show.
Honestly I would probably blame the collapse of the soviet union and europe demilitarizing afterwards for that if anything.
Well done! Very well researched!
I think that the Soviets learned more than the documents let appear to the outside world. Yet not enough, especially in operational terms.
It would be interesting to understand the development of the AA-8 Aphid (1974-1977), and comparing it with the then current AIM-9 versions, like AIM-9G, AIM-9xH AIM-9L (the last being released in 1979).
I would say no, even Mig-29 is kind of a new Mig-21
Both planes is made for a pilot to more or less just follow instructions.
Cockpit is total worthless etc, its the same With every weaponsystem from the Sovjet.
Maybe \
SU-27 is kind of close to a modern plane.
The Soviets were heavily influenced by captured F5s that were supplied by North Vietnam when developing the MiG 29. The CIA called the SU-27 prototype Ram K after the Rameskoi facility in the late 1970s.
@peternystrom921
Nonsense. The cockpit of the mig 29 for it's time was good. The radar though prone to failure and malfunction had serious capabilities for its day. The missiles were good, particularly the r-73. The fighter was incredible for it's time. You watch too much yt fighter pundits and "osint experts" and assume what they say is accurate.
The soviets took pilot training far more seriously after the Yom Kippur War and established the Mary Top Gun school. Of course that's another proof that they blamed the pilots not the airplanes or the missiles.
Lessons from the air war can go into a training program quickly. Look at how fast the navy created Top Gun. Eventually the air force had their advanced training. In the meanwhile structurally modifying existing aircraft and missiles can take years.
Re the Soviets' assessment of Arab pilots, it's easier to blame the operator than what is operated, much as the USN did in WW2 regarding the Mark 14 submarine torpedo. There may also have been more than a bit of Slavic-supremacy attitude in the mix.
Well, it is only half the truth. The fact is, that when Egyptians started the war and were able to follow soviet doctrine, it worked very well and gave Israelis hard time. The moment they were forced to act out of the system (in attempt to help Syrians), they got in troubles.
I'm wondering about this as well. The USSR should have known better as the IDF had given them a bloody nose in 1970.
I may disagree with how you frame the Soviet lessons as a whole (As Paper Skies has indicated that they had been aware of several of them, hence Soviet Top gun + the several programs to develop more effective air platforms), but the assessment that they were too harsh on their Arab allies is accurate. Overall, a great video
This continues to be one of my favorite channels. I suspect you found yourself in a difficult situation when current events overtook your rollout of this series, so carefully timed to coincide with the anniversary. What do I know, honestly, but your analysis seems to be extremely even-handed and rigorous, neither accepting the 'conventional wisdom' as fact nor focused on overturning it. Well done!
The issues of rapid depletion of equipment and inventory in modern war have a great deal of resonance in the current global environment, and I hope there are competent leaders in my country planning for such things.
Excellent analysis - really worthwhile. Thank you for a quality production.
I love these videos so much. Thank you.
I have been enjoying this Yom Kippur War series so much, given my previous lack of knowledge in the area. Thanks for your hard work!
Thanks for kind comment. Appreciate it!
@@notapoundanother great video...would love a video on the Iran /Iraq war
@@notapoundspeaking of helicopters the 1st kill by an F-14 Tomcat in the Iran / Iraq war was against an Iraqi helicopter.....speaking of which have you considered doing a video on that war?
It's not every day you almost shoot down the engineering officer. 😅
ZSU radar directed quad barrel mobile cannon caused most Mirage and Phantom losses - I am former Mirage pilot.
The only problem with the arab claims is that they don`t match the number of airframes delivered to Israel.
The pre-YKW and YKW inventory has since been de-classified, making research and mythbusting quite easy.
The Israeli Air Force lost 102 airplanes: 32 F-4s, 53 A-4s, 11 Mirages and 6 Super Mysteres. Two helicopters, a Bell 205 and a CH-53, were lost.
Note Mirage er both 3 & 5.
Israeli Air to air kills where scrutinized after the war
Arabs are masters of lying. Can you believe that to this day, Egyptians are saying that they won the Yom Kippur war? I guess that's what they are being taught in schools.
I'd willingly be set straight by someone more knowledgeable, but it seems like both the US and USSR invested heavily in the 1950s and early 1960s in interceptors - anti-bomber aircraft. The F-101, -102, -104, and -106 come to mind. These were optimized for getting to a bomber formation quickly, hitting the formation hard, and then heading home. Fighting with fighters was not their strength. The departure from that emphasis for the US was the F-4 Phantom II, which started out with the USN, with the envisioned missions being battle group CAP and strike mission escort. The F-4 ended up being a more flexible/adaptable aircraft, and the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 followed in that multi-role concept. The Soviets seemed to stick with the interceptor design model longer.
The F-104 was not designed as a bomber interceptor, but as a high performance day fighter. The F-101 started out that way, but the B model added a large radar and a radar operator and flew as a stopgap interceptor for ADC while the F-102 and 106 encountered delays in development.
The Americans got a big wake up over North Vietnam. American missiles weren’t nearly as effective. The maneuverability of NV MiGs meant avoid a dogfight with them. The F-4E version was an upgrade in maneuverability and became a western air force gold standard of new American aircraft
@@gort8203…. The Starfighter was designed by Clarence Kelly as a day fighter for point defense. Lockheed’s F-104G was sold as a multirole aircraft.
@@Idahoguy10157 No, it was not designed for point defense, it was designed for air superiority. It was designed to do the same thing the F-86 did over MiG Alley in Korea. Kelley Johnson interviewed those pilots and asked them what they wanted in their next fighter. They said a lightweight fighter with superior speed and altitude. That is what the F-104 was designed to do.
@@gort8203 …. Did it have the range too? Were the Luftwaffe going to send there Starfighter fleet east over the Warsaw Pact? Or use them to defend their airspace? If that was the Starfighter mission how many air forces did that? Pakistan? Jordan? Taiwan?
Fascinating analysis. Thanks for sharing!
Great vid, I was wondering when the Russians started offering the R60 missile to foreign buyers as I feel like that would have been a great addition to egypts mig fleet
Another fantastic video, I especially like the implications on USAFE munitions stockpiles after reviewing YK employment rates. However, I disagree with not counting helicopters in the air superiority discussion. I believe all aircraft (fixed, or rotary wing and/or tilt rotors) are factors in the mix determining who controls the airspace. Too bad if egg-beaters get caught out in the open by fighters. But many now also carry A-A missiles so they might not be as defenseless as supposed. Keep up the great work!
By the way, this is the reason for Soviets criticizing Arab pilots. It wasn't of the matter "arab pilots suck and can't pilot their planes", it was general confusion of why Arabs engaged in dogfights so often and willingly, putting themselves into a losing disposition
Thanks for your analysis
Very significant implications for a US / Chinese conflict regarding munitions consumption rates. US only recently doubled air to air missile production to 100 units/month (Max output for current factory.)
Dating back to, at least, WWI, peacetime militaries _always_ lowball their consumption rate. Always, and by a lot. Whether it's intentional low balling and counting on the industry being able to make up for shortfall or just the sheer sexiness of one more fighter versus the dull bland of enough fuel and munitions for ten more sorties (or whatever the ratio is) the thing you can actually show in a parade wins the budget war.
Either way, if your military swears up and down its got a ninety day supply, expect to be rationing your munitions a fortnight into the conflict.
Fighters vs helicopters may be like clubbing baby seals, but only if the plane maintain a substantial altitude advantage and attacks with missiles from a range the chopper can’t match. Go after a gunship in a low fight and get into gun range, particularly with some cluttered terrain, and the plane is at a disadvantage. This shocked the heck out of the USAF when tested.
Well, it's nice to know _Gunship 2000_ didn't lie to me.
This conclusion is questionable.
The R-60 started mass production in 1973. Meanwhile, the MiG-21BiS started coming out in 1973. So technically all elite Soviet formations especially those in East Germany would’ve been at least partially equipped with these fighters and missiles.
In addition, you talked about the K-13 M and M1 missiles In your other videos that came out in the 60s/70s. So I don’t understand where this idea of comparing this air war to Europe came from?
Moreover, if you read Kenneth Pollack’s Armies of Sand book, you’ll understand that training has absolutely nothing to do with their poor performance. When the US started training the Egyptian airforce they suffered serious frustration with Egyptian pilots and the way they were as individuals/soldiers (to put it extremely shortly and vaguely). While speaking with a Russian who worked with Arabs his quote was as follows “comes in one ear, flies out the other”. So Arabs being Arabs for many factors described in that book, were one of the primary reasons behind their failures. In fact he noted that the Soviet equipment supplied to them was the best possible option for these Arab armies.
Now I want to attach your attention to something else. Operation Kavkaz. Where during the War of Attrition Soviet pilots and SAM crews that were called in to assist the Egyptians scored more kills against the Israelis than they lost themselves. Provided they used the same MiG-21MFs. So how does this make any sense provided you blame equipment on the losses of the Egyptians and Syrians? Also, if the Russians were “textbook pilots” so to speak, then how come they managed to defeat their “flexible and imaginative” Israeli counterparts?
If the equipment was to blame then how did the Cubans achieve success in Angola whilst crying at the same time about poor equipment supplied to them?
This is a good video. And indeed the Soviet monkey models were a big problem for nearly everyone that used them. But, blaming everything on these models is clearly biased and poorly researched.
A really excellent piece of analysis, your research is exemplary. Thank you for another top piece of work.
excellent video and great analysis of data. It really helps to provide a useful picture of the air conflict in the war.
Seems like you are going way out of your way to give every benefit of the doubt to the Arab pilots. They sucked. Get over it.
You might find this interesting in regards to the idea of fighting helicopters with fighters. If flown correctly helos can be a major threat.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH#:~:text=To%20the%20surprise%20of%20many,at%20close%20ranges%20with%20guns.
I knew I should have checked the comments before adding my own.
A history re-written 😊 Another "professional" bunch of lies.
There is no comparison between the Israeli Air Forces and the Egyptian and Syrian Air Forces at that time because the Israeli Air Forces were superior in everything technologically.
The range of the Israeli plane, its survival in the air, and the aircraft’s weapons stock and existing missiles
When you compare the technological difference between these forces, you are between a Mercedes car driver entering a race with an old Vette car driver.
If there was a similarity between the level of aircraft and their armament, the results would certainly be the same
Thank you for this wonderful video. I learned a lot and especially appreciated the different take aways from each nation.
Would be interesting to see a Video about Mole Cricket 19 as the West used it as a example of what could be done to suppress or destroy enemy air defenses and the power of AEW and high end fighters the IDF had only a few F-15's maby about "20" A's and B's at the time and more numerous F-16A/B along with Kfir's and F-4E's(by 81 Aim-9 python only?)and A-4's for Strike work and pont air defense considering the mismatch of some NATO Air Forces it was likely a great inspiration but apparently again the Soviets just blamed the Syria AF and AD without making any real changes
Great work! I was surprised to see that the Soviets, essentially, refused to learn from the conflict.
I wasn't. Russians have a infamous streak of xenophobia/racism when it comes to those south of them.
@@MM22966 I think that is unquestionably true, but from a practical standpoint is seems fantastically foolish.
@@kylestoddard2881 Well, we've seen a lot of fantastically foolish things out of them over the last year 1/2.
You were? Interesting.
Kfir awesome
Simply my favorite aviation channel. Cheers!
The Mi8s were used as improvised attack helicopters with rocket pods and machine guns in addition to troop transport.
Israel air force always no.1 👍
Yes. On movies and fake documentaries on yt😅
So the US (and by extension, I assume the rest of NATO) learned that modern warfare has a staggering rate of armaments use and can have a concerning rate of attrition on airframes etc.
The exact lesson we are relearning in Ukraine. Jebuz, we can be a bit slow sometimes!
The current situation should certainly emphasize your points about how much ammunition is used and how rapidly they must be replaced to remain effective after an initial bump.
While the Migs and Sukhois were in general good aircraft with their limited systems, always remember the Soviets did not have a good general purpose fighter until the Mig 29.
The Mig series until the -29 were interceptors, and specifically bomber interceptors. Although later modified or updated to give them better capabilities, they were unfortunately hampered by their design as interceptors.
Thanks for sharing your insights with us.
Would love to see more warpac and PVO-Strany stuff as well as nato.
And as a previous post stated, the literally unknown Indo-Pak airwars would be very appreciated.
Thanks again.😀
that is not true, they were frontline fighters. Only the variants marked with P (ex: MiG-21PFM) were designed as an interceptor and used as such by the PVO
The US number might include non-Egyptian flagged aircraft operating out of Egypt that were destroyed.
The MiG-23 was developed to counter the F-4B and C, and would likely have worked well against that aircraft. But the superior F-4E, F-14A, let alone the F-15A were completely out of its league.
The Su-27 would prove (in later mock combat) a formidable opponent to these aircraft, especially with the brand new AAM-12 "Amraamsky" missile replacing the older, less reliable and less capable weapons.
That thumbnail picture seems awfully familiar, but I can't place it. Is it a model kit box top?
The plane vs helicopter deal is weird. Plane has the potential to kill a helicopter with no recourse for the chopper, but in the right scenarios or armed with air to air missiles choppers can be down right deadly for fixed wing.
Wouldn’t the fixed wing have greater range with air to air missiles though, due to the plane’s higher speed when letting one off the rail?
Of cours your arabs lovers are the best... an air to air retio of 3 to 1 was in 67 and in 73 it was 23 to 1. Take or shav itup your 😂
Not that the same Israelis that attacked the USS Liberty wouldn't lie... would they? It has been said that US military personnel fought for the Israelis. How about that? Why would CIA personnel want to be involved in combat for a foreign government? Hmm...
I was stationed at Bitburg AFB during the war,we were all nervous about the war escalating into a wider conflict involving NATO and the WARSAW PACT….Nixon put us on alert and all we could envisioned was hoards of Soviet tanks pouring across the Fulda Gap,you can imagine how relieved we were when they announced a ceasefire,Whew 😓
The critically scrutinized loss and sortie ratios of the Yom Kippur War confirm *the 'good enough' quality of Soviet airframes* (especially the MiG-21 that remained in service until the introduction of the MiG-29 and Su-27 in the mid 1980s) _and_ ground based, surface-to-air guided missile air defenses, in systematic coordination - in order to attrite Western air forces, significantly - as well as the ratios confirm *_the decisive role of technical education and training_* (e.g. how to safely operate an ejection seat).
10:20 The Yom Kippur air war implies the legitimacy of institutions like the US Air Force 'Red Flag' and US Navy 'Topgun' combat training schools and exercises - even if it were not primarily for 'dogfighting', but indirectly mastering the airframe and learning to anticipate adverse combat maneuvers - while questioning a procurement strategy of 'technological dominance' (an elusive quest for end game 'Wunderwaffen' in a natural dynamic of arms races) and likely an over-reliance on air campaigns - possibly the result of Douhet's doctrinal influence on a US Strategic Air Command's view on Air Power - versus more affordable ground based air defenses and a *Combined Arms* mindset - as within the evolving Soviet military tradition (possibly going as far as re-integrating an independent Air Force service, back into an 'Army Aviation' service branch).
A lot of the lessons in this war seem similar to that of the Ukraine war, munitions will be expended very quickly in a peer conflict; though what is most striking is the dismissal by the soviets of their planes underperforming. It seems to be a tradition that has prevented introspection and improvement to this very day in the Ukraine war.
Great well researched video! However a few questions
1. Where does your claims of the Soviet guns “being less accurate in spread” come from? Technically, accuracy can also be higher spread increasing hit chance. Precision is better to describe a gun with low spread. Are you saying the Soviet guns have more or less spread? And what is that based on ?
2. Where does your claim MiG-23 being a gas guzzler come from? This is true for most aircraft, and MiG-23 did achieve being one of the fastest accelerating aircraft of its time, even beating the MiG-29 while supersonic
3. Where did hear about R-60 not being fired from MiG-23 for causing engine failure until an upgrade come from? I have never heard this before
4. This is less a question, but don’t you think it odd that in your comparison of weapons/aircraft at the end, you say MiG-21 struggled from being designed as an interceptor and not for low altitudes, and this is also connected to the “short range at low altitude.”
However, isn’t the exact same true for Mirage III? As you describe in your own videos, it was basically handed to Israel as an interceptor, and their pilots were essentially the first ones to see a good dogfighter in it.
Your conclusion leaves out the massive interceptor forces the Soviets had. Beyond the mig-21 and 23 interceptor variants the tu-128 and su-15 interceptors were very powerful in those days
Super wonderful introductions video and aviation technology supermarcy of Kippur war....what was notable IDF airforces superiority was obviously touching. US Supports were sent during the course of the conflict. While the USSR sent 100 tanks to the Syrian military after one month of fire's Seized ...Iraq government at that time was not proclaimed or admitted of casualties of [ Ramazan war = Kippur war ] 🤔...thank you for sharing this magnificent video
Once again another excellent video chock full of information and extremely interesting . It's interesting to note that the commander of the Israeli air force said that no kills were made by Aim7 Sparrows and that Phantom crews rarely used their radar. Also in a book called Air warfare in the missile age , an Egyptian mig21 commander claimed that his unit scored 22 kills and had gun camera footage to prove it. Is there any truth to Arab claims that US pilots were flying combat sorties for Israel after 18 October, although North Korean and Pakistani pilots were fighting on the Arab side. Finally the Israelis made prodigious use of the Maverick missile claiming about 80 percent hit rate knocking out tanks WITHOUT A WARHEAD!!. FANTASTIC SERIES MORE PLEASE.
Where did you hear this story about US pilots? (I mean, it IS Arab cope, but I would be interested to know on what basis it started)
Any source on Israeli Phantoms not using their radar? Considering, you know, it was their biggest advantage over the preponderance of Arab fighters opposing them?
it's fascinating that militaries are constantly having to learn the same lessons over and over again
as the US is learning in Ukraine that they'll need to massively increase munitions supply for a war with China
And aircraft.
Militaries do remember, their political pay-masters rarely look beyond the election cycle.
When you talked about the Syrians, you showed the Iraq air Force
Do you think you could do a video on the hawker hunter? Such as it’s performance in the indo Pakistani war?
Thanks for the comment. I will get there eventually. Certainly an interesting subject!
Would Love to see you do a Video on a Aircraft that Got a lot of love and doesn’t seem to get talked about, The F-106
yeah but the F-106 did fuck all in its service life
Man u cant make a thumb nail look really cool if ur just narrating an xcel worksheet.
This is so good! Someone made a show for me!!!!!! ❤❤
Commercials every 30 seconds.
Very nice analysis, as with all your videos. I really enjoy your stuff.
I would like to see you do an analysis of the Iran-Iraq air war. That was also a fascinating subject.
This page is pretty sick keep it up
In case anyone else besides me did not know what a _Dornier Do-27_ was...
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_27
Great vid. Nice to see you cut through the propaganda and go for the facts. Nice work.
Israel vs 3 Arab nations = No contest 😄
It was USA vs USSR via proxies.
Another great video. Well presented and as always top research👏👏👏Love your channel.
This was extremely informative. Thank you!
Wished “Janes IAF” incorporated this video into the game.
I would love to hear your assessment of the post war British airpower.
NEVER PUT SOMEONE IN CHARGE OF THE ARMY BECAUSE THEY ARE LOYAL
When your opfor includes a 3 letter agency a military coup is a SIGNIFICANT risk
@@andreahighsides7756 It is. But nonetheless its always the "loyal" to stab back later on somehow like in the Congo affair. All and all if the Command is filled with Nationalist Officer it should be safe, but humans do have this one characteristic called greed. Greed for the most potent drug in the world, power.
A link to the research paper assessment of the war?
Why did the Iraqis even bother?! 🙄
In Russian Acent it's Good plane you see it's good rocket we make in Russia the pilot is poor he's made in middle East don't believe the Capitolist Yankees.
Loved it! Very interesting analysis 👍
I love the dry commentary.
Git some
Excellent presentation.
One of the losers were the sailors on the USS Liberty.
11:01 the visiting US, military men determined going by Israeli experience that their Air forces against a Soviet world war III scenario would be wiped out in 2 weeks
Yes.
IMO an excellent analysis! I would point out that during the Egyptian/Israeli War of Attrition, the Soviets were highly critical of Egyptian pilot quality. The Egyptians felt vindicated when in one of the last dogfights 5 Soviet planes were lost! Again, one salient fact is that Israel used/uses Western planes/training/tactics. The Arabs used/use Russian/Chinese aircraft/training/tactics. Again, IMO, forces using Russian/Chinese equipment (And they don't get the latest or the best) would fair much worse than in 1973. Egypt however could well perform better as they now use mostly US/French aircraft. The major Israeli advantage would lie in their extensive combat experience and the F35I against which only other F35 users could form a response!
ของเขามีเยอะมาก
I'm Israeli and a fan of this channel.
I'm more than a little surprised that you insist that both sides must be lying about downed aircraft, so you move the numbers around.
IAF tells the absolute truth to the best of its knowledge- both in regards to its own downed planes (all tail numbers are available on the net!) and in regards to enemy planes downed.
The story of an Egyptian helicopter shooting down an IAF fighter with rockets is a fantasy.
The story of downing of many Egyptian helicopters is the truth and there are the burnt remains to prove that.
As expected. Egyptians are saying that they won this war. Apparently they even printed post stamps before the war, celebrating the victory that never occurred.
So Israel doesnt lie? 😂
@@basemanawakens6089 Simple minds are only capable of simple thoughts
@@basemanawakens6089 🤣🤣😭😂
@@basemanawakens6089It is wery difficult in Israel to ly about it own losses. It is democratic state with free press, more ever it is very small country. The names of fallen solgers well know. You can't hide the loss of pilot and the plane.
Exaggerated counts from Israel as always. 😂
Source: trust me bro.
Are you Polish?
Thanks Pound, another great video on a relatively unknown action.
Excellent well researched statistical analysis on this war! 11:31
👍👍
Nice balanced assessment, pleasant to see more critical account of israeli claims.
But your understanding of Soviet fighter doctrine is off. Soviets never planned to dogfight on low altitudes, not only the planes were not suited for this, pilots had very little dogfight training as well. This would change only in 1980-s.
Actual Soviet doctrine was not that different from what was used in Vietnam, basically, accepting the fight mostly over own territory and dividing the sky into the responsibility zones for various systems. Anything that goes low should be the responsibility of short and medium range SAMs and AAA. Fighters then would engage at medium and high altitudes using speed and climb advantages and keeping the energy. It's quite obvious as you can see that Soviet designs of the era clearly sacrificed maneuverability for acceleration and climb, and cannon armament was often either absent or with little ammo
I've read & watched a lot about "Ramadan War 1973", esp. air battle. This piece in many aspects is the most unbiased & mind respecting work.
So the Israeli airforce couldn't contest air space controlled by advesary ground forces?
If the United States had not participated in this war with its own fighter aircraft, it would never have been completed in a short time.
In Air War College there was a saying that "Amateurs talk about tactics, Professionals talk about logistics." Seeing how bad Russian Logistics has been in the Ukraine war I have to wonder if it would have been any better in a NATO vs Warsaw Pact war? Plus we would have had deep strike capability at their railroad marshalling yards where 90% of their logistics happen. I've been deployed a few times and even when we're in the middle of nowhere on the other side of the planet we lack nothing. Russians have a hard time with high intensity combat even on their own border.
NATO vs Warsaw would have included tactical and possibly strategic nuclear strikes as well as VX gas use. Very hard to predict how this would play out beyond generalized Armageddon
Low intensity counterinsurgency in a friendly area does not equal near peer conflict. American logistics have been untested in a realistic war fighting scenario for the last 50 years
@@CrownBoron were you ever in Iraq or Afghanistan? I don’t think you have any idea of the logistics it took. And it was never over a single front either but the entire two countries.
@@donparker1823 I'm not arguing about the logistical complexity of servicing two different theatres of combat operations, what I am saying is that the system was never put under serious friction by an opposing force. As for the idea of deep strikes at Soviet marshaling yards, I'm sceptical of the claimed responsiveness of AirLand Battle. It was only in a post Soviet world that PGMs and stealth made that a realistic possibility
@@CrownBoron couple of problems with your assumptions. Friendly territory? What is friendlier than your own country? Deep strike capability? Never heard of Pershing? GLCM? F111’s etc etc. Your ignorance of getting logistical support into crazy remote area’s of Afghanistan is telling. + we prosecute any graft we find in the logistics train. The Russians reward it.
I am just so sick of this kind of propaganda! Narrative has changed! Your apartheid state is not a miracle but a PARIAH
😂
Modern day Pharoah showing his ancient anger and bitterness in the form of war, only to get beaten one more time. Descendants of Ishmael waging war with the descendents of Isaac. No offense to anyone.
Viva Egypt 🇪🇬
Viva 🇸🇾 Syria