As a current employee of CPKC, thank you for mentioning my friends and co-workers who tragically lost their lives on Feb 4, 2019. Their names were Engineer Andy Dockrell, Conductor Dylan Paradise, and Conductor Trainee Daniel Waldenberger-Bulmer. Nearly 6 years later I still think of those 3 daily. I still remember some of the best trips I had with Andy, and some of the techniques Dylan taught me as a Conductor. I'm now a Locomotive Engineer myself and every time I go down The Hill past where they detailed, I give the horn 3 blasts for the boys. We all miss them.
My first job with CPR Steel Gang 1 was in the Spiral Tunnels. Summer of '74. We took out old steel and put in new steel. Most, if not all of the work was manual because the engine exhausts would have killed us. I was in the clean up section at the end of the gang. All of my work was with a spike hammer. Talk about an adventure for a young man. Dirty, hard work but I was so lucky. Played one of my best shuffle board games in a bar in Field.
I was on steel gang 1 in 2004 and worked in the tunnel. It was something I will never forget and something I am proud of. It felt somehow like I was part of history. Yes, the tunnel system was already built but I was part of its maintenance. Hard work,but I didn't care. It is a job that I am very proud to have been part of. Best of times for sure
Another great video! The Spiral Tunnels were one of my favourite places to visit on the family road trips as a child. Also, the intro volume is much better now and your voiceover clarity is much improved.
Another great video, I have lost count the number of times I have driven by the spiral tunnels, always in a hurry, never time to stop and watch the trains.
I love these videos! Growing up in the Lower Mainland, I’ve really enjoyed watching the ones you’ve made about the history, areas, infrastructure, and buildings I recognize. A couple of years ago, I moved to Prince George and hope to learn more about the history here as well. There are some fascinating landmarks, like the Prince George CNR Bridge, built in 1914, which used to lift to allow steamboats to pass through.
As a truck driver, kicking horse amazes me everytime I drive through it. Mind blowing views, especially the construction of the new bridges there. Those construction workers have some serious 🎾's 😂
If you ever get the chance visit Takakaw falls just west of the tunnels. (You won't be taking your work truck there!) If you walk to the bottom of the falls it is a truly mind blowing and humbling experience. I think June is the best time to go there for the highest water volume.
Hi Kyle! Really appreciate all your videos! You are doing amazing job! Can't wait to see the video about the road (highway nowadays) connecting Whistler and Vancouver. Thank you!
Thanks for making this video! I've driven through Rogers Pass dozens of times and always wondered about the history of Field, Golden and Revelstoke. The most recent improvements to the highway east of Golden have been wonderful. I look forward to watching more of your content - SUBSCRIBED!
Great video documentary on this section of the railroad. It was a highlight for me in our history classes while attending primary and secondary school in Van. The concept of driving spiral tunnels is common in underground mining, but the average grade is 15% for access ramps that connect to ore deposits. (Obvs. the equipment used is trackless, i.e. diesel trucks and loaders, toyotas for personnel.) I can't imagine how difficult the work must have been excavating and driving those railway tunnels over a century ago. Thanx for this video OP.
CPR: I worked for them on two occasions. First in 1966 as a News Agent, dishwasher on the "Canadian" and then upon graduation from University I joined Marathon Realty. In my estimation it was the best run corporation in Canada. I sill own stock, now CPKC.
Thanks for this. Very much enjoyed. The story of the Big Hill and the Spiral Tunnels is a story that I always enjoy hearing. And of course it's a lot of interesting fun to observe trains working their way through this section of CP's Laggan Subdivision.
I absolutely love the province of British Columbia. The diversity of climates, terian, flora and fauna, the people who call it home and those who choose to visit make it arguably the best place on earth. Yes, like everywhere, it has its own issues, but in my view, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
Thank you for another amazing video. Just wanted to comment and say how much this channel means to me and my family! We love watching and learning about places we’ve been many times, and places we still have to visit in our province
I saw this once when on a family trip as a kid. Absolutely amazing! I am so glad I got to see it! this reminds me of stories my dad would tell me of the times when he worked on the railroad, I can't remember if he worked in the spiral tunnel, but there was a story where while in a tunnel he had to lay down next to the track, because a train was entering and he was too far from the hole things that were cut into the sides of the walls for such a situation. I wish I had, had them written down or recorded them, it's difficult for me to remember them unfortunately
Great video! The pacing is really done and facts super interesting. One small gripe, is that I'd have liked you to have focused a little more on the challenges associated with crossing through indigenous land.
my first job with CP was on Zeks extra gang (winter1977 the Yoho gang) we lived in box cars, old converted cattle cars in number 2 back track at Yoho. There were 9 of us on the gang at that time, we would split up into 2 teams one would work number one tunnel and the other (myself and 4 others) number 2. We would pick ice all day in the tunnel so the trains would clear going through....we stayed inside the tunnel when the trains came in, the only way you knew there was a train coming was the wind on your neck, when you felt that you ran for a hole in the wall, sometimes you were close enough to reach out and touch the wheels....if you were unlucky and not fast enough. Wasn't a very safe practice to say the least, sulphur trains mixed with steel brake shoes were the worst. Spent 35 years in total with the company, went into management after spending 13 years in Revelstoke as a Locomotive Engineer. Andy worked for me in Kamloops and qualified there before he moved to Calgary, he was a fine Locomotive Engineer and a real gentlemen, was very sad hearing of the incident that took his and his 2 mates lives. I still remember
That's awesome! Thanks for sharing. My grandfather, Harry Burgart and my uncle worked for the CPR out of Revelstoke. Grandpa started out of Penticton and Brookmere working the KVR, finishing his career in Revelstoke in the late 70's. My uncle spent his entire career there with my cousin still working for the CPR.
@@HistoryOfBritishColumbia I worked with him many times, he was my brakeman and conductor at times on the Mountain. Then I went to management as a Road Foreman/Road Manger/Trainmaster, retired in 2013.
Ive driven from Calgary to Vancouver island and back 40 or 50 times in the last 12 years. I love stopping off at the viewpoint. One time there was a group of asian tourists there who thought it was a ride of some sort.
I own an unsharpened CPR adze used to hew timbers for the rails. The CPR stamp is in the steel with a blue lettered "Province of British Columbia" stamped handle. A true Canadian heritage treasure in my books.
Brilliant. Thank you for that. Those archival images were quite the treat, they really helped your narration come alive. Do you have a reference for the one at 1:01?
My first time on your channel. Loved the video. I’ve been through the spiral tunnels 5 times. Four on Via (when it took that route) and once on the Rocky Mountaineer. I am very fortunate to have had these experiences. Also I’m an avid rail nut and model railroader. Hope for more railway videos. 🚂 Thanks.
Been there and seen that. Interesting. Kicking Horse pass going into Radium is a great place to smoke brakes as is the W bound road into Golden but not as steep.
Note the roughly half the tunnels are clockwise and half go counter-clockwise. This is to untwangle the strangled spandrels of the main trains' vanes. Saves the pain. Or to get through the passes. One or the other.
@David_Lloyd_Jones....thanks for this description (i.e. clockwise & counter-clockwise) of how the spiral tunnels were built...although, come to think of it, most f the twin or more spiral tunnels rail-lines in Switzerland also alternate the the direction of travel.....mind you, the younger generations reading this will have a hard time understanding the concept of "clockwise" or "counter-clockwise", as it doesn't make sense on a digital watch..😅
Funny, the tunnels have always been considered a tremendous engineering achievement, but nobody has anything to say about the highway everyone views them from. It is true that the highway could use steeper grades, but it needed a much wider path, build costs were much higher, and the tools they had available for designing were the same ones the railway engineers had used. One thing you hear is that the highway just follows the old railway route. This is untrue. How do I know? Let me tell you the story of how the route was found. The guy who did it was also the guy in charge of building the road through the mountain parks. The surveying started in 1947. They had routes picked out from the east and the west ends, but could not figure out how to get up the spiral tunnel hill. Three years of trying, and no success. But the politicians were getting restive, so they had to start building at one end, and were just about to start at the other. This was troublesome. The guy didn't want to have on his resume that he had built two very expensive roads to nowhere! One night he was down at the bottom end, and after supper he decided to drive out on the gravel road and have another look at the problem. And he dozed off behind the wheel. As he was waking up, he caught a glimpse of the tea house at the top. Eureka! That was the route. He grabbed a range pole from the trunk and send the survey crew in the next day. The man's name was Ken Ford. My uncle.
The upper half of the old rail line is now the highway. The lower half is still there and is used as an access road for CP crews to lower parts of the new track. The tracks are gone of course. There is one place alongside that trail where there is an old abandoned steam locomotive still laying there.
"This obstacle was resolved when a missionary priest convinced Blackfoot Chief Crowfoot that the railways construction was unavoidable" Nice euphemism. I don't know the actual story, but I can assume from that line that this was a classic Canada move
6:54 I actually cannot find that exact photograph on the city's archive website. Could you share a link to that photo of the train passing by the glacier hotel?
Here is a link to the photo of a passenger train at Glacier House. If you search "passenger train" under advanced search, it will come up. searcharchives.vancouver.ca/passenger-train-stopped-at-station-in-mountains
It is illegal to land or lift off a drone in a national park like this. Can you please tell me how you were able to get a permit to do this . Was it free and how long did it take to get authorization. I learned about it when I posted a video like this and the parks superintendent of Yoho NP contacted me with the laws and told me to remove the video or risk charges under the park act ? I am curious about how you got the Ok. Thanks.
I did not film that portion of video. It was stock footage sourced through RUclips. Although I assume it is a drone, I am not sure if it was taken by helicopter, airplane, parachuter or a really tall person or selfie stick.
we need spiral tunnels for the streets of Vancouver The problems that exist by building 3-D app we must build 3-D down, helps the environment and establishes more beautiful landscapes and faster. Vehicle drives to home work services, etc..
Really good, really interesting, and mercifully NOT full of brainrot, distracting RUclipsy bullshit intended to maximize viewership and retention. Watching this slower, more thoughtful content is like having a filing, healthy meal, compared to the endless quadruple chocolate deepfried donut ice cream cake-style videos you'll find elsewhere on RUclips.
Just a quiet word of advice to reduce ribald comments from Western folks in the future. I'd accompany the image of a Reichsbahn 2-10-0 and train of 4- wheel freight wagons with the sub-title: "For European viewers, here is an approximation of the grade they used." Other than that, well-presented video!
As a current employee of CPKC, thank you for mentioning my friends and co-workers who tragically lost their lives on Feb 4, 2019. Their names were Engineer Andy Dockrell, Conductor Dylan Paradise, and Conductor Trainee Daniel Waldenberger-Bulmer. Nearly 6 years later I still think of those 3 daily. I still remember some of the best trips I had with Andy, and some of the techniques Dylan taught me as a Conductor. I'm now a Locomotive Engineer myself and every time I go down The Hill past where they detailed, I give the horn 3 blasts for the boys. We all miss them.
My first job with CPR Steel Gang 1 was in the Spiral Tunnels. Summer of '74. We took out old steel and put in new steel. Most, if not all of the work was manual because the engine exhausts would have killed us. I was in the clean up section at the end of the gang. All of my work was with a spike hammer. Talk about an adventure for a young man. Dirty, hard work but I was so lucky. Played one of my best shuffle board games in a bar in Field.
That’s awesome! It sounds like a great experience.
I think my dad was there too in 74 in the gang crews!
I was there for 2 summers, 74 and 75. What was your dad's name?
I was on steel gang 1 in 2004 and worked in the tunnel. It was something I will never forget and something I am proud of. It felt somehow like I was part of history. Yes, the tunnel system was already built but I was part of its maintenance. Hard work,but I didn't care. It is a job that I am very proud to have been part of. Best of times for sure
I did the same work with CPR #1 Steel Gang. Summer 1981. Awesome experience for a university student from Ontario!
These history videos are getting better and better. Thanks Kyle.
I'm glad you're enjoying the videos!
Another great video! The Spiral Tunnels were one of my favourite places to visit on the family road trips as a child. Also, the intro volume is much better now and your voiceover clarity is much improved.
Thank you! Lots of adjustments trying to get the voiceover dialed in. Thanks for the feedback.
the little details like animating the image at 9:11 are wonderful
Thanks to the decision to go the southern route, my small Alberta city was created. Great video.
Another great video, I have lost count the number of times I have driven by the spiral tunnels, always in a hurry, never time to stop and watch the trains.
My Family and I have stopped many times and waited for a freight train. Always worth the wait. Thanks for making this video! (an Albertan)
Glad you enjoyed it!
I love these videos! Growing up in the Lower Mainland, I’ve really enjoyed watching the ones you’ve made about the history, areas, infrastructure, and buildings I recognize. A couple of years ago, I moved to Prince George and hope to learn more about the history here as well. There are some fascinating landmarks, like the Prince George CNR Bridge, built in 1914, which used to lift to allow steamboats to pass through.
Thanks you! I will definitely check out the Prince George CNR Bridge!
As a truck driver, kicking horse amazes me everytime I drive through it. Mind blowing views, especially the construction of the new bridges there. Those construction workers have some serious 🎾's 😂
If you ever get the chance visit Takakaw falls just west of the tunnels. (You won't be taking your work truck there!) If you walk to the bottom of the falls it is a truly mind blowing and humbling experience. I think June is the best time to go there for the highest water volume.
Reminds me of when i saw Rocky Mountain Express in imax while visiting Victoria
Good stuff
Hi Kyle! Really appreciate all your videos! You are doing amazing job! Can't wait to see the video about the road (highway nowadays) connecting Whistler and Vancouver.
Thank you!
Thank you! The Sea to Sky Highway is definitely on my list of videos!
Thanks for making this video! I've driven through Rogers Pass dozens of times and always wondered about the history of Field, Golden and Revelstoke. The most recent improvements to the highway east of Golden have been wonderful.
I look forward to watching more of your content - SUBSCRIBED!
Very cool video. Love learning canadian history
Great video documentary on this section of the railroad. It was a highlight for me in our history classes while attending primary and secondary school in Van. The concept of driving spiral tunnels is common in underground mining, but the average grade is 15% for access ramps that connect to ore deposits. (Obvs. the equipment used is trackless, i.e. diesel trucks and loaders, toyotas for personnel.)
I can't imagine how difficult the work must have been excavating and driving those railway tunnels over a century ago. Thanx for this video OP.
I would absolutely love more railway themed videos like these! Love the videos. Keep it up!
I’m glad you enjoyed it! More railway videos are definitely in the works.
Great work. Previous generations had some hills to climb.....
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed the video.
Thank you for the great content and history ❤
CPR: I worked for them on two occasions. First in 1966 as a News Agent, dishwasher on the "Canadian" and then upon graduation from University I joined Marathon Realty. In my estimation it was the best run corporation in Canada. I sill own stock, now CPKC.
Thanks for this. Very much enjoyed.
The story of the Big Hill and the Spiral Tunnels is a story that I always enjoy hearing. And of course it's a lot of interesting fun to observe trains working their way through this section of CP's Laggan Subdivision.
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I absolutely love the province of British Columbia. The diversity of climates, terian, flora and fauna, the people who call it home and those who choose to visit make it arguably the best place on earth.
Yes, like everywhere, it has its own issues, but in my view, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
Thank you for another amazing video. Just wanted to comment and say how much this channel means to me and my family! We love watching and learning about places we’ve been many times, and places we still have to visit in our province
That’s awesome to hear! I’m glad you and your family are enjoying the videos.
I saw this once when on a family trip as a kid. Absolutely amazing! I am so glad I got to see it!
this reminds me of stories my dad would tell me of the times when he worked on the railroad, I can't remember if he worked in the spiral tunnel, but there was a story where while in a tunnel he had to lay down next to the track, because a train was entering and he was too far from the hole things that were cut into the sides of the walls for such a situation. I wish I had, had them written down or recorded them, it's difficult for me to remember them unfortunately
Thanks for sharing! It sounds like your dad had some wild experiences working on the railroad.
Great video! The pacing is really done and facts super interesting. One small gripe, is that I'd have liked you to have focused a little more on the challenges associated with crossing through indigenous land.
Thank you, I really enjoyed watching this fantastic video!
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
Thank you for sharing this. I have always been fascinated by the spiral tunnels
my first job with CP was on Zeks extra gang (winter1977 the Yoho gang) we lived in box cars, old converted cattle cars in number 2 back track at Yoho. There were 9 of us on the gang at that time, we would split up into 2 teams one would work number one tunnel and the other (myself and 4 others) number 2. We would pick ice all day in the tunnel so the trains would clear going through....we stayed inside the tunnel when the trains came in, the only way you knew there was a train coming was the wind on your neck, when you felt that you ran for a hole in the wall, sometimes you were close enough to reach out and touch the wheels....if you were unlucky and not fast enough. Wasn't a very safe practice to say the least, sulphur trains mixed with steel brake shoes were the worst. Spent 35 years in total with the company, went into management after spending 13 years in Revelstoke as a Locomotive Engineer. Andy worked for me in Kamloops and qualified there before he moved to Calgary, he was a fine Locomotive Engineer and a real gentlemen, was very sad hearing of the incident that took his and his 2 mates lives. I still remember
That's awesome! Thanks for sharing. My grandfather, Harry Burgart and my uncle worked for the CPR out of Revelstoke. Grandpa started out of Penticton and Brookmere working the KVR, finishing his career in Revelstoke in the late 70's. My uncle spent his entire career there with my cousin still working for the CPR.
@@HistoryOfBritishColumbia was your cousin Keith?
Keith is my uncle
@@HistoryOfBritishColumbia I worked with him many times, he was my brakeman and conductor at times on the Mountain. Then I went to management as a Road Foreman/Road Manger/Trainmaster, retired in 2013.
Beautiful l want often just to see trains just great video. kicking horse river la rivière du cheval qui rue something to see thank you
I've been there a few times. Really interesting video. Thank you very much 👍👍🙂🇨🇦
What a great channel! (From Victoria, BC). Thanks. And good work.
Appreciate that, thanks for watching!
That was fascinating. Thank-you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Ive driven from Calgary to Vancouver island and back 40 or 50 times in the last 12 years. I love stopping off at the viewpoint. One time there was a group of asian tourists there who thought it was a ride of some sort.
I own an unsharpened CPR adze used to hew timbers for the rails.
The CPR stamp is in the steel with a blue lettered "Province of British Columbia" stamped handle.
A true Canadian heritage treasure in my books.
Excellent video, thanks from On-terrible!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great job on this video, I'm really enjoying learning more about BC's history
Great video, thanks.
Brilliant. Thank you for that. Those archival images were quite the treat, they really helped your narration come alive.
Do you have a reference for the one at 1:01?
My first time on your channel. Loved the video. I’ve been through the spiral tunnels 5 times. Four on Via (when it took that route) and once on the Rocky Mountaineer. I am very fortunate to have had these experiences. Also I’m an avid rail nut and model railroader. Hope for more railway videos. 🚂 Thanks.
That’s for checking out the channel. I do have plans for more railway videos coming up. Stay tuned :)
Great video!!
Been there and seen that. Interesting. Kicking Horse pass going into Radium is a great place to smoke brakes as is the W bound road into Golden but not as steep.
Thank you so much for these videos. I'm so grateful to get to learn more about our beautiful province. Do you have a Patreon?
Thank you. I’ve never looked into doing a Patreon account. I need to research it more before I jump into it.
Note the roughly half the tunnels are clockwise and half go counter-clockwise.
This is to untwangle the strangled spandrels of the main trains' vanes.
Saves the pain.
Or to get through the passes. One or the other.
@David_Lloyd_Jones....thanks for this description (i.e. clockwise & counter-clockwise) of how the spiral tunnels were built...although, come to think of it, most f the twin or more spiral tunnels rail-lines in Switzerland also alternate the the direction of travel.....mind you, the younger generations reading this will have a hard time understanding the concept of "clockwise" or "counter-clockwise", as it doesn't make sense on a digital watch..😅
Good video...thanks
This was a good program, and I would hope it is taught in schools.
I worked in this tunnel and the connot and the McDonald's for CPRail . Proud to be a part of a great company
Funny, the tunnels have always been considered a tremendous engineering achievement, but nobody has anything to say about the highway everyone views them from. It is true that the highway could use steeper grades, but it needed a much wider path, build costs were much higher, and the tools they had available for designing were the same ones the railway engineers had used.
One thing you hear is that the highway just follows the old railway route. This is untrue. How do I know? Let me tell you the story of how the route was found. The guy who did it was also the guy in charge of building the road through the mountain parks. The surveying started in 1947. They had routes picked out from the east and the west ends, but could not figure out how to get up the spiral tunnel hill. Three years of trying, and no success. But the politicians were getting restive, so they had to start building at one end, and were just about to start at the other.
This was troublesome. The guy didn't want to have on his resume that he had built two very expensive roads to nowhere!
One night he was down at the bottom end, and after supper he decided to drive out on the gravel road and have another look at the problem. And he dozed off behind the wheel. As he was waking up, he caught a glimpse of the tea house at the top. Eureka! That was the route. He grabbed a range pole from the trunk and send the survey crew in the next day.
The man's name was Ken Ford. My uncle.
Thank you for sharing. Trans Canada Hwy will be a future video and I would love to add the portion of your uncles story to the video
@HistoryOfBritishColumbia And I would be glad to get it better known. What is the next step? I have his memoirs.
Very cool. I wonder what happen to the old rail line. Thank you.
The upper half of the old rail line is now the highway. The lower half is still there and is used as an access road for CP crews to lower parts of the new track. The tracks are gone of course. There is one place alongside that trail where there is an old abandoned steam locomotive still laying there.
"This obstacle was resolved when a missionary priest convinced Blackfoot Chief Crowfoot that the railways construction was unavoidable" Nice euphemism. I don't know the actual story, but I can assume from that line that this was a classic Canada move
6:54 I actually cannot find that exact photograph on the city's archive website. Could you share a link to that photo of the train passing by the glacier hotel?
Here is a link to the photo of a passenger train at Glacier House. If you search "passenger train" under advanced search, it will come up. searcharchives.vancouver.ca/passenger-train-stopped-at-station-in-mountains
@@HistoryOfBritishColumbia thanks, my searches didn't bring it up, but brought up a lot of other nice ones.
the tunnels are a wild thing to see with your own eyes ... still in awe they did it with no tech tools
Cool 😊😊😊
We give this a grade of 4.5% out of 5.
Haha love it!
You should do the Port Mann Bridge.
also I'm a big fan
Thanks for the suggestion. I actually just did some drone filming of the Port Mann the other day. Coming soon :)
Canada has the best spiral tunnels according to chat gpt
I’ve been to the view point, and watched a train pass through. The forest is getting a little thick to get a good view through.
The job was exhausting!
I lived in field for 3 years at emerald lake
Tony lost his lotto ticket in the spiral tunnel and made me go look for it.
I hope you can do royal Hudson 2860
Thanks for the suggestion. I am adding it to the list of future projects.
@ amazing I hope to see one of my favourite steam locomotive is in a future video thank you 😊😊😊😊😊😊
It is illegal to land or lift off a drone in a national park like this. Can you please tell me how you were able to get a permit to do this . Was it free and how long did it take to get authorization. I learned about it when I posted a video like this and the parks superintendent of Yoho NP contacted me with the laws and told me to remove the video or risk charges under the park act ? I am curious about how you got the Ok. Thanks.
I did not film that portion of video. It was stock footage sourced through RUclips. Although I assume it is a drone, I am not sure if it was taken by helicopter, airplane, parachuter or a really tall person or selfie stick.
6:32 Shop Angus
I like trains 🚂
we need spiral tunnels for the streets of Vancouver The problems that exist by building 3-D app we must build 3-D down, helps the environment and establishes more beautiful landscapes and faster. Vehicle drives to home work services, etc..
@4:36 you show a British/European locomotive and carriages! Why?
Really good, really interesting, and mercifully NOT full of brainrot, distracting RUclipsy bullshit intended to maximize viewership and retention. Watching this slower, more thoughtful content is like having a filing, healthy meal, compared to the endless quadruple chocolate deepfried donut ice cream cake-style videos you'll find elsewhere on RUclips.
From 9:06 to 9:29 that appears to be an AI generated file.
I actually made it with photoshop and made it move it in premiere. No AI used in this production lol
Just a quiet word of advice to reduce ribald comments from Western folks in the future.
I'd accompany the image of a Reichsbahn 2-10-0 and train of 4- wheel freight wagons with the sub-title: "For European viewers, here is an approximation of the grade they used."
Other than that, well-presented video!
When you click on a video thinking it is a Wendover Productions vid
The tunnels were much longer and darker than expected.. almost fainted from the diesel exhaust in there. Do not recommend.
Canada: Failroading since 1870's :D
🏞️🚂🫡
60 years old and the firtlst time i heard of them.
@DennisMahaney-n3w....you know the saying: never too old to learn....take this with all due respect from a oldie nearly 25% your senior ;-)