I've had some serious issues with Wayland in modern hardware. I'm sure it works well on many systems, but on my legion Ryzen 7745hx/ Nvidia4070 laptop I've had nothing but issues
@@Svnipni I wish Wayland supported nouveau and old intel and amd iGPU devices, but especially lima and panfrost since the only true open source computer platforms utilize those. Seems like open source isn't winning with Wayland.
Wayland devs fundamentally disagree with a plenty of stuff that wine requires (like absolute window positioning or implementation of multi-window programs, global key shortcuts) but wayland doesn't yet support. I'm not sure what they're going to come up with. Took a long fierce fight on the protocols gitlab to get xdg-toplevel-icon (window icons) into the spec in the first place
I never cared if I use X11 or wayland, I had X11 on my desktop, wayland on my laptop - more coincidentally. then I decided to change the behavior of the mouse wheel for scrolling when pressed. took me about 5 minutes to figure out the command to make it work in X11. gave up on wayland after hours of searching for a solution.. its the small things!
I get exactly what you mean. Sadly on Wayland that feature depends completely on your compositor. On sway it was pretty easy to set it up. On Plasma, a while back, I had to use some dbus command that a single person mentioned as a comment inside a somewhat unrelated KDE issue, and it took me some hours to find it. I remember reading the option was being added to their settings GUI a few months ago, so it should be a few clicks nowadays. And then there's GNOME, of course. No way to do that under that DE (natively). I had to use some libinput hack someone made to workaround the feature being available on the library but not on GNOME. It's the small things...
This was literally why I reverted back to x11 just a while back. One of my mouse-button broke and I wanted a keybinding for it. Turns out all the popular tools and documentation for keybinding only work for x11.
@@FahadAyazYeah, every DE can implement missing features, but it's important that standards are created so everyone can have a complete desktop experience
As a single monitor xfce user, X is working just fine, so I don't see why I should be hyped by Wayland. So if it comes, let it be, but don't pretend it will change drastically how I use my PC, is just a protocol.
Just switched back to Xorg, again, this time on Ubuntu 24.04, because, again, I can't share screens or most apps in Slack huddles. So, I guess that I'll try Wayland out again when 26.04.1 comes around. I don't hold out much hope given that I've already found it lacking in 20.04 and 22.04 already, and now 24.04 specifically for this use case each time.
@@tohur it's a wayland issue because I can't just do what I can do under Xorg in Wayland in any application. This has always been the issue with wayland, until all the existing features and applications are fully supported under Wayland like they are under Xorg it's hard to make the case to use Wayland by default even if Wayland adds nice modern additional support. Just look through all the other comments on this video for many people who are experiencing the same thing for other applications and use cases. I feel like Wayland seems to be years away from being the default for people. Every two years I've been doing this. This time around Teams was working fine for screen sharing everything from whole Windows to individual applications, but then Teams doesn't allow for multiple simultaneous screen shares (which is very useful when pair programming, debugging etc.)
@@rawrrrer I'd be very surprised if it wasn't already raised with Slack. The next time that I'll bother to check will be in 2026 though as Xorg "just works"
@@tohur It's completely a Wayland issue. They spent a decade or more telling people that critical features like this weren't their problem...but use our software anyway. So it's not until the last few years when the multiple compositors got their compatibility act together and more apps can start to try to support this stuff. It was always going to take a long time to replace X11 but the Wayland people have been horrible and unrealistic about how they approached it.
I'm still on team X. Wayland doesn't provide any real world / real use benefits for me. But it does introduce new issues. So, no benefit, and some drawbacks. I'm excited for its future, but that isn't here yet.
I'm still using X, but trying to get graphics running after replacing my MB and CPU showed me the writing on the wall. X11 only recognises graphics hardware if it's set to Legacy Mode in UEFI settings... and the iGPU on my new Ryzen 9 CPU did not support being run in that Legacy Mode, meaning X11 could not run on it and never would, no matter what drivers I would install. Thankfully, trying to get graphics running on the iGPU was just an experiment to try and get ANY graphics running while I had yet to figure out that all I had to do was put my standalone card in Legacy Mode despite it being a reasonably recent card, not something ancient. X11 support has effectively been dropped from some of the latest CPU-integrated graphics chips on the market. It's more or less a matter of time until Intel, Nvidia or AMD decides dropping legacy compatibility in standalone graphics cards might allow enough cost reductions or extra performance in the card to be a net advantage, and the other manufacturers will likely follow suit soon after one of their competitors does.
Also, Discord team is fixed issues while ScreenSharing on Wayland. They added Desktop Audio Sharing feature and improved Game-Detecting feature. It's only available on the canary channel for now. I tried it and it worked fine for me.
it really aggravates me to no end that I still cannot get any sort of remote desktop, vnc type of solution working with wayland. I also cannot find a way to work around a supported resolution that's not reported by one of my monitors that happens to be the resolution i want to use. Both of these should be simple. I just dont think wayland is ready, yet here i am being forced into it and losing functionality.
This is why you don't use a distro that is forcing you to use it. Linux Mint is currently one of the only holdouts, & it's the only usable Linux distro currently.
@@mikechappell4156 Again, another individual who has never had to work with x11 in a backend POV. X11 is insufferable to extend and patch. The decades of tech debt has caught up. You can be like the banks that still use COBOL after all these years but have to live with the bugs because absolutely nobody can fix them, or you can learn the new thing, get your issues fixed, and more.
Still not ready to replace Xorg as far as I'm concerned. I have a wide monitor which is only 3 or 4 years old. It doesn't report its preferred resolution correctly. With xrandr I can create a workaround and it will be fine. I couldn't find a way to do this with either Gnome or KDE under Wayland. Oddly enough, Hyprland does allow me to create a workaround and use my monitor properly. But Hyprland isn't the default desktop for any of the big names in Linux. Also, if you're a developer, you may find that your favorite IDE still hasn't been made Wayland compatible.
@@gljames24 they're common and no way to know before you buy it usually. at least you can work around it in X. so yea, i agree, wayland isnt ready. i can't get a single remote solution like vnc working properly with it which is trivial with X
> Oddly enough, Hyperland does allow me That's how Wayland works, it's just a protocol. it's not Wayland that supports thing, it's the Desktop environment/window manager that supports things The work that used to be managed by the Xserver is now moved to the compositor part of the Desktop Environment
@@VallThyo maybe he's referring to OpenTabletDriver not being able to use buttons in Wayland, or not being able to use Absolute Mode in osu! specifically... I have those issues with Gaomon S620 but there's none when i use the official Gaomon drivers in Linux
Been using Wayland for 2 years now and see no problems with it. If there were some limitations, they either were fixed or I found some workaround (like PiP windows not being on top - kwin window rules can fix that).
Meaning it still has problems for most. Imagine yourself as a bus driver. Odds are pretty good that you can still get around in Windows a bit. Somebody in the family has it, you saw it in school, whatever. You know something, or better yet, *somebody*. But srsly, "kwin window rules"? That's alien technology.
I never really cared about using X11 or Wayland, until I was using Gnome on Arch Linux on an old laptop and one day I decided to select the wayland option in the display manager out of curiosity and I felt the animations were more snappier and fluid and the programs seemed to open faster. From that day on I started using wayland on my computers.
I don't know, folks. I hear about Wayland from every corner of the Linux community, but I had mostly a bunch of issues and zero benefits compared to X. The most recent ones were, for some reason, a full-screening video on RUclips would shut off the screen for a few seconds. It's not a big deal, but it's irritating. Sunshine straight up doesn't work on Wayland, i spent the whole day trying to solve this issue but gave up. Screen sharing is a pain in the ass. General stability is questionable. I can go on for a while. The point is that to replace X, Wayland needs to be better in the user experience category first. I don't care about how fast and secure it is because I can't use software that has fewer features and works worse than older ones.
*real* programmer here, who actually has to code X11, Wayland etc, and not a koolaid drinker. Despite the hype that wayland is a "better" "easier" "simplified" protocol, it could not be further from the truth. The wayland protocol is overly complex, a lot of boiler plate code, and not at all intuitive. The X11 protocol on the other hand is very straight foward and mimicks other popular APIs like Win32. The legacy code could have been taken out of X11 to get the same or better results than Wayland, and would have not broken the entire API landscape.
They're not talking about the APIs but the source code of the servers/protocols. Your GUI library should handle writing Wayland/X11/Losedows/FagOS code in its backend anyway so, it doesn't matter than Wayland's API isn't as easy as XCB (I suppose you talk about XCB which is more complicated but allows you to write faster apps because of asynchronous calls. If you talk about libX11, then you compare apples with oranges...).
Unless you are rolling out your own UI toolkit using your own graphics library, or if it's a game, you are rolling your own engine. you shouldn't notice a thing as a developer. As a fellow developer, you sound full of sh*t
@deckard5pegasus673 unless you are making your own graphics libraries, you shouldn't notice a difference as a programmer. If you are doing that for any reason other than learning how they work, you are doing it wrong, and you can use X11 with Wayland compositors anyway
@@moussaadem7933 First let's get the propaganda out of the way. XCB was created for asynchro communication and to limit round trips. Xlib also has the ability to do Asynchro and also can batch calls. There is no real reason to use XCB. Also GTK3 uses Xlib, not XCB. Albeit Qt does use XCB, and doesn't perform any better. Yes I use low level calls Xlib, and stay away from both GTK and Qt. I don¡t like either for different reasons. Also I make my own window managers, which with X11, is straight forward and clean. Doing this is Wayland is unthinkable.
It's really smooth on my AMD laptop, but it's so unstable compared to X11 on that same laptop. I've tried it under Ubuntu and Fedora but it crashes from time to time (stable on X11), and some things always crash it. Now I'm back to PopOS with X11 and to quote Todd Howard "It Just Works"... :)
Too be fair, Wayland was quite stable when I tried KDE, worst was a KDE crash but it resumed itself without crashing all my applications which were running, so it might just be a Gnome + Wayland thing. It's just that I prefer Gnome on my laptop, so it'll be X11 for now.
The other thing on wayland is that its implementations are not created equal. KDE has different quirks from Gnome wayland which differs from other executions. I haven't tested or researched between them but it has helped drag behind the implementation as it's not quite as simple as going for x11 and calling it a day. Wayland + nvidia + kubuntu is not good out of the box without tweaks for me (especially suspend behavior), however with tweaks it has been largely successful and I blame some of my issues on some kind of faulty hardware problem that resulted in bluescreens on windows and usually only seems to crash plasma-desktop on wayland, and only one irrecoverable system freeze (did not test X though). The other main issues with wayland generally do not affect me although building the latest pinta on kde has some interesting behaviors and there are other odd bugs which I tend to blame on wayland. Not game breaking, speaking of which, games have generally run quite well.
Typical case of Second System Problem, that is: "The Second-System Effect, also known as Second-System Syndrome, is a phenomenon in software engineering where a successful initial system or product is replaced by a more complex, bloated, and often less successful successor"
Thankfully, in this case, the second system is a simpler one, with less bloat, and is successfully getting better and better because everyone is adopting it and it has a compatibility layer for the old system
@@deadpixel64 there's no concept of a standalone window manager in Wayland like in X11. Thanks to the simplicity of Wayland there's no need for an additional layer of abstraction that hide the complexity from you. if you want to make a window manager, you now make it by *directly* Interacring with the low level kernel modules. you can still build on top of existing projects like wlroots
They did a sort of anti-second-system effect with Wayland. They wanted it so simple that they refused to implement various really basic features for years and tried to sell it as necessary security, then wondered why it took so long to get everyone to use it (it's damn near 2 decades old now!) Don't get me wrong, X11 is very old now (and it shows!) and it was always complex and hard to work with. I'm just extremely disappointed that, even if they did learn from their time working with X11 (though this is by no means clear to me), the Wayland folks seem to have invented brand new ways to mess up, taking way longer than they were supposed to and finally abusing us when we don't switch to their incomplete, alpha quality software. I've mostly tuned them out since they started with that last part.
Wayland isn't there yet. I need macros, i need programmable mouse control and keyboard input. Preferably some redshift type of thing. As far as i know the first things are not possible in Wayland for reasons. The last, that being redshift, might be a thing but now its compositor specific, as are many damn things, whereas that could be achieved far easier on x. I know Wayland is the future, and that's fine. But i don't like that it's being shoved down our throat and pretending to be ready for everyone. It's ready for the normie user that only really uses the browser, maybe libreoffice here and there. Not for everyone everywhere.
Wine 9.22 was installed recently on my Arch Linux via an update, it didn't use Wayland, even though it's capable so I had to edit the Wine registry to force it to use wayland and X11 as fallback..
I use wayland because steam game run smoothly with wayland and super stutter with xorg. So I just switch all my pc and laptop to wayland for consistency.
Excited for wayland but it doesnt seem to be ready as the default for those with nvidia. I did see its been getting better and better with each driver release which is great
Been using a bunch of wayland tiling compositors (sway, hyprland, river, niri, ...) on NixOS with no issues other than some compositors refusing to implement xwayland because x11 is too old and shit to deal with apparently.
I already use Wayland on my Desktop but don't use it on my Laptop because of graphics artifacts due to AMD driver issues regarding AMD's mobile chips in Laptops using High resolution and high refresh-rate displays. This bug has been plaguing me and others for months now and I really hope this gets fixed soon...
I think it's good as long as it's well done. From what I understand, the people maintaining X are the ones developing Wayland. So it's pretty inevitable. I hope it opens the door for more bloated and archaic holdovers from Unix to get cleaned up.
I've been using X11 and Wayland for a while, and both are interesting... and painful to use. For me, X11 feels so old and applications for Linux in general tend to look like that (I know that ricing your setup is possible, but takes its time). Wayland based apps just feel better, but with a lot of issues, like if they were in beta. The fact is that X11 still has a solid, but outdated, ecosystem, while Wayland has a more modern, but in-developmet one.
Only trouble i have with wayland currently is some game steam games are blurry you apply fractional scaling and not being able to screen share on the official discord app.
Wayland is good, but I'm still using X11 because Anki doesn't work well with it. Hopefully that will be resolved soon. To be specific, when I try to add audio to an Anki card under Wayland, it doesn't always take, but I have no problems doing that under X11.
Wayland's decision to change behavior since time immemorial around server-side window decorators makes window management in programs that don't implement their own decorations (read: a _lot_ of them) pretty broken. It's a bad idea to default to it while huge swathes of software will frustrate users around simple stuff like window management.
its privacy and security because it can be harder to detect screenshot on x11 wayland blocks it be default so you have to override if you use automation python apps like i create for example! but its not impossible it just annoying having to rewrite code!
The main reason I use X11 over Wayland is that I love Nemo file manager cause of it's ease of accessing the open as root in the systems files area and on Wayland it only kinda works. So untill that's fixed I'll stay on X11. This topic would also work with Pipewire replacing Pulseaudo. Now this one bothers me more so then Wayland vs X11 cause for me Pipewire is more audio then I would ever need and Pulseadio does everything I need and more over Pipewire in that Pulseaudio as a god-sent of a plugin that is called SWH-plugins that combined with Pavucontrol and a well placed script gives your whole system a dynamic range compression that I just can't live without sense I watch alot of RUclips. The lows are not. and the highs are also not. Just nice level volume all the time. 🙂 So in my mind Pulseaudio still as a solid place for alot of people like myself that just need sound and a good compressor and nothing else and it bothers me that Pipewire is so pushed and even so damned interrogated that is almost sometimes impossible for the average user to get rid of it to replace it with Pulse.
@@Vitis-n2v You are 100% correct. Pipewire-pulse will replace Pulseaudio. but not plugins specifically made for Pulseaudio and they won't work with- Pipewire-pulse. Thrust me I've spent months on the subject and tried the plugin already and it didn't work.
Well, it won't take over mine any time soon. That's for sure. Last time I checked, it wasn't stable for my needs. I'll give it another 15 years. I remember when the next big thing was Mir with Unity running on top. Where is it now? :D
wayland is not the default in wine like this made it sound, it is just enabled by default now. x11 is still used over wayland. if you remove xwayland somehow it will use wayland. good luck with wine+wayland and older games like you mentioned. resolutions changing is wonky or just busted. and basic wine windows and menus get placed haphazardly by your wm last i tried. just using regedit to re-enable x11 over wayland was harder than it should've been. glad icons were finally accepted. but window positions/placement is still dragging on...
I'll stay with X until I can find the info I need to theme Qt applications in Wayland outside of KDE. I need a dark theme because light themes hurt my eyes. There are also some Labwc issues I haven't figured out yet, but those will have to wait until the theming issue is resolved.
@@spatiumowl Tried both. I suspect I'm not setting some variable required, but I don't know what it might be. There are also differences between apps. Some take dark themes, others not, and some that take the dark themes don't take the Kvantum ones.
Still more buggy and broken today than the decades old X11. And bases on the development way it's being happening, it seems we'll never get any better than X11. It's sad to see Linux in this lack of good future perspective.
maybe if they didn't use flatpak portals and put the security pop-ups in wayland itself like android security permissions...and then didn't dance around decision making for months or years to just have a security option for basic things everyone has been using for decades and are clearly used. EWMH added them for a reason, right? because youre so totally going to get everything perfect the first try...sure thing. there's still horrible naming in wayland code like there was X. i guess min/max may not be macro defined somewhere tho -_-
Last I heard, Wayland did not support easy network fluidity like X always has. And there was some argument as to why it shouldn't and never would. This makes no sense to me. How can people claim that this is the future, that this is somehow superiour to X? Are they just coming from Windows/Mac myopia where network transparency has never been imagined? How can Raspberry Pi use Wayland? Don't they realize that many of their use cases are headless, with only power and network connections? What are you supposed to do if you have a lab full of dozens of Raspi devices to manage from one desktop, install an HDMI switch box? Ridiculous! Maybe my info is just old and by now they've rethought and fixed this, but a project that at any stage thought maybe it didn't have to deliver at least the same network flexibility as X, is simply not for me.
Did you really not mention the most important of why it's seen as future proof ? Wayland was created by a lot of the people who used to work on X. X had become a messy system, the architecture was designed over 40 years ago. So Wayland is a more performant messy system. It's cleaner by design, but a lot of things are left to implement by the applications and systems that use Wayland and for some reason they often don't share libraries to do so. Which means Wayland support will very from application to application, often hopefully it's just part of the toolkit like GTK and QT.
for me, wayland sucks. a major flaw is removing the client/server architecture i have 5 linux machines at my house. remote graphics is essential. graphical remote performance monitoring is impossible on wayland. do not remove X11 support.
Have you tried waypipe? Wayland is just a protocol how to deal with it is the job of the compositor, waypipe is a proxy that acts as a compositor on one system and then just sends it to a real compositor on another system.
Wow, fan boy much? Hard to believe an entire video about Wayland without mentioning network transparency. And the lack of accessibility features is a major issue; Lennox is already turning off a lot of users with its complexity, and now we’re turning away users who need assistive technologies to even use the system. I feel like it’s taken so long for Waylon to get off the ground - it’s like 15 years old now - and I wonder if now they’re just nibbling around the edges. I’m just not convinced it’s the correct replacement for X 11 and it’s a solid foundation for the future.
Is overtaking? overtook long ago for me, it just works, and less bugs than x11. Gaming, Digital Drawing, and general daily usage, everything works fine and bug free. I'm pretty incompetent for this kind of stuff and still work for me, so if doesn't work for someone else it's kind of a skill issue to be honest.
Accessibility is not optional. I'm pretty disgusted that this wasn't considered something that MUST NOT REGRESS from X11/Xorg. Just the usual level of implicit societal ableism I guess :-(
Accessibility is NOT optional. Thats why we need more attention on wayland via having more people use it thus being invested in its development to potentially donate their spare time into betting compatibility with accessibility features. I 100% agree. Anyone should be able to use their computer regardless of disability. Its just a shame so many talented developers are refusing to work on it because "X11 was fine!" and despite the inevitable shift that unless something changes like these people switching their development efforts over to wayland, a lot of disabled individuals are going to be in a world of hurt.
"Wayland is Policy, not Mechanism." This means it forces you to do something a certain way and provides no functionality itself. In other words, it's garbage.
As a developer or user? As a user I don't really notice anything I have to do a certain way on Wayland. Mostly just application support issues which is slowly going away. As a developer I haven't run into much problems although I don't make system software, more productivity apps and dev libraries.
@@mohitkumar-jv2bx It all depends on what one is doing. Wayland isn't all that great for artists that have Cintiqs and Wayland isn't all that "young". Sure it's "younger" compared to Xorg, but considering it's been well over a decade and still has the small papercut issues, sure make it an option, but not the standard until those are fixed.
@ yeah I agree. I am only a casual wayland user living in terminal and browser. For artistic needs, it probably is not the best option right now. But it’s great to see it being developed so fast amd getting supported by so many distros
What do you think about Wayland?
I've had some serious issues with Wayland in modern hardware. I'm sure it works well on many systems, but on my legion Ryzen 7745hx/ Nvidia4070 laptop I've had nothing but issues
I guess we all can’t win with Wayland :(
it cause issues on my laptop but have better touchpad support
I still can't drag and drop files into some apps like vesktop and browsers on wayland. It's so annoying
@@Svnipni I wish Wayland supported nouveau and old intel and amd iGPU devices, but especially lima and panfrost since the only true open source computer platforms utilize those. Seems like open source isn't winning with Wayland.
Wine using Wayland is HUGE. This means proton shouldn't be too far behind, this is excellent news for gamers.
Yeah, we are even closer to semi-native gaming now.
I think we might still be talking about a year or 2 before we get there.
*gaymers
Wayland devs fundamentally disagree with a plenty of stuff that wine requires (like absolute window positioning or implementation of multi-window programs, global key shortcuts) but wayland doesn't yet support. I'm not sure what they're going to come up with. Took a long fierce fight on the protocols gitlab to get xdg-toplevel-icon (window icons) into the spec in the first place
@@X11R11I don't think games will be affected by that. Everything is expected to run in a single full-screen window
I never cared if I use X11 or wayland, I had X11 on my desktop, wayland on my laptop - more coincidentally. then I decided to change the behavior of the mouse wheel for scrolling when pressed. took me about 5 minutes to figure out the command to make it work in X11. gave up on wayland after hours of searching for a solution.. its the small things!
I get exactly what you mean. Sadly on Wayland that feature depends completely on your compositor. On sway it was pretty easy to set it up. On Plasma, a while back, I had to use some dbus command that a single person mentioned as a comment inside a somewhat unrelated KDE issue, and it took me some hours to find it. I remember reading the option was being added to their settings GUI a few months ago, so it should be a few clicks nowadays.
And then there's GNOME, of course. No way to do that under that DE (natively). I had to use some libinput hack someone made to workaround the feature being available on the library but not on GNOME.
It's the small things...
This was literally why I reverted back to x11 just a while back. One of my mouse-button broke and I wanted a keybinding for it. Turns out all the popular tools and documentation for keybinding only work for x11.
InputRemapper?? Took me 5m to find thay program
BRO. Thought your profile picture was an actual bug... Punched my monitor to no avail.
And global key shortcuts still arent working properly
There are like 3 or 4 important protocols that are about to be finished in Wayland. HDR/color management and session restore are between them
Doesn't the Steam Deck already use Wayland? It's had HDR support for a while now 🤔
@@FahadAyazYeah, every DE can implement missing features, but it's important that standards are created so everyone can have a complete desktop experience
Important protocols: ❌
Protocols I care about: ✅
Will session restore mean my browser windows remember which virtual desktop they're supposed to be on because that's a big QOL issue for me
I miss xforwarding. The old "just run firefox over ssh on the remote machine to access legacy management systems".
As a single monitor xfce user, X is working just fine, so I don't see why I should be hyped by Wayland. So if it comes, let it be, but don't pretend it will change drastically how I use my PC, is just a protocol.
Wayland on my AMD cpu and Gpu is so fast. I use Ubuntu 24.04 with Gnome Desktop.
Glad to hear the exp
@@desvendandoornasaude4127 even on my nvidia gpu. Kde plasma works absolutely great.
Just switched back to Xorg, again, this time on Ubuntu 24.04, because, again, I can't share screens or most apps in Slack huddles. So, I guess that I'll try Wayland out again when 26.04.1 comes around. I don't hold out much hope given that I've already found it lacking in 20.04 and 22.04 already, and now 24.04 specifically for this use case each time.
You don't need to wait for 26.04, you just need to make a bug report for the apps to support the Screen Sharing portal
thats not a wayland issue its an issue with the application
@@tohur it's a wayland issue because I can't just do what I can do under Xorg in Wayland in any application.
This has always been the issue with wayland, until all the existing features and applications are fully supported under Wayland like they are under Xorg it's hard to make the case to use Wayland by default even if Wayland adds nice modern additional support.
Just look through all the other comments on this video for many people who are experiencing the same thing for other applications and use cases. I feel like Wayland seems to be years away from being the default for people. Every two years I've been doing this.
This time around Teams was working fine for screen sharing everything from whole Windows to individual applications, but then Teams doesn't allow for multiple simultaneous screen shares (which is very useful when pair programming, debugging etc.)
@@rawrrrer I'd be very surprised if it wasn't already raised with Slack. The next time that I'll bother to check will be in 2026 though as Xorg "just works"
@@tohur It's completely a Wayland issue. They spent a decade or more telling people that critical features like this weren't their problem...but use our software anyway. So it's not until the last few years when the multiple compositors got their compatibility act together and more apps can start to try to support this stuff. It was always going to take a long time to replace X11 but the Wayland people have been horrible and unrealistic about how they approached it.
I totally agree that the active community is the most important benefit of wayland. Because the community can fix any other issue.
I'm still on team X. Wayland doesn't provide any real world / real use benefits for me. But it does introduce new issues. So, no benefit, and some drawbacks. I'm excited for its future, but that isn't here yet.
I'm still using X, but trying to get graphics running after replacing my MB and CPU showed me the writing on the wall. X11 only recognises graphics hardware if it's set to Legacy Mode in UEFI settings... and the iGPU on my new Ryzen 9 CPU did not support being run in that Legacy Mode, meaning X11 could not run on it and never would, no matter what drivers I would install. Thankfully, trying to get graphics running on the iGPU was just an experiment to try and get ANY graphics running while I had yet to figure out that all I had to do was put my standalone card in Legacy Mode despite it being a reasonably recent card, not something ancient. X11 support has effectively been dropped from some of the latest CPU-integrated graphics chips on the market. It's more or less a matter of time until Intel, Nvidia or AMD decides dropping legacy compatibility in standalone graphics cards might allow enough cost reductions or extra performance in the card to be a net advantage, and the other manufacturers will likely follow suit soon after one of their competitors does.
Also, Discord team is fixed issues while ScreenSharing on Wayland.
They added Desktop Audio Sharing feature and improved Game-Detecting feature.
It's only available on the canary channel for now.
I tried it and it worked fine for me.
it really aggravates me to no end that I still cannot get any sort of remote desktop, vnc type of solution working with wayland. I also cannot find a way to work around a supported resolution that's not reported by one of my monitors that happens to be the resolution i want to use. Both of these should be simple. I just dont think wayland is ready, yet here i am being forced into it and losing functionality.
On GNOME 42 and later you can just enable Screen Sharing and connect via RDP from another System
the issue is that there are no longer X11 devs willing to fix it. sooner or later it's gotta be wayland, nobody has the choice
This is why you don't use a distro that is forcing you to use it. Linux Mint is currently one of the only holdouts, & it's the only usable Linux distro currently.
@@daniesmar Fix what? X11 works fine. Linux was supposed to be about choice. If I wanted "the" way, I'd have stuck with windows.
@@mikechappell4156 Again, another individual who has never had to work with x11 in a backend POV. X11 is insufferable to extend and patch. The decades of tech debt has caught up. You can be like the banks that still use COBOL after all these years but have to live with the bugs because absolutely nobody can fix them, or you can learn the new thing, get your issues fixed, and more.
Still not ready to replace Xorg as far as I'm concerned.
I have a wide monitor which is only 3 or 4 years old. It doesn't report its preferred resolution correctly. With xrandr I can create a workaround and it will be fine. I couldn't find a way to do this with either Gnome or KDE under Wayland. Oddly enough, Hyprland does allow me to create a workaround and use my monitor properly. But Hyprland isn't the default desktop for any of the big names in Linux.
Also, if you're a developer, you may find that your favorite IDE still hasn't been made Wayland compatible.
there is gnome-randr for gnome and kscreen-doctor for plasma. haven't used them at all tbh so i can't tell.
Wayland is not ready because you bought a crappy noncompliant monitor?
If you want a hyprland setup, just steal someone's configs. It's honestly not too difficult to set up yourself either.
@@gljames24 they're common and no way to know before you buy it usually. at least you can work around it in X. so yea, i agree, wayland isnt ready. i can't get a single remote solution like vnc working properly with it which is trivial with X
> Oddly enough, Hyperland does allow me
That's how Wayland works, it's just a protocol. it's not Wayland that supports thing, it's the Desktop environment/window manager that supports things
The work that used to be managed by the Xserver is now moved to the compositor part of the Desktop Environment
Wayland is still a pain in the butt to use if you use a drawing tablet.
It doesn't? Works fine for my Wacom Intuos.
@@VallThyo maybe he's referring to OpenTabletDriver not being able to use buttons in Wayland, or not being able to use Absolute Mode in osu! specifically... I have those issues with Gaomon S620 but there's none when i use the official Gaomon drivers in Linux
Buy me your tablet and I will personally write you drivers
Been using Wayland for 2 years now and see no problems with it. If there were some limitations, they either were fixed or I found some workaround (like PiP windows not being on top - kwin window rules can fix that).
Meaning it still has problems for most. Imagine yourself as a bus driver. Odds are pretty good that you can still get around in Windows a bit. Somebody in the family has it, you saw it in school, whatever. You know something, or better yet, *somebody*. But srsly, "kwin window rules"? That's alien technology.
Fedora KDE has Wayland as default for some time now, have been working flawlessly.
Nvidia graphics card?
@@AndrewMarsin AMD
I never really cared about using X11 or Wayland, until I was using Gnome on Arch Linux on an old laptop and one day I decided to select the wayland option in the display manager out of curiosity and I felt the animations were more snappier and fluid and the programs seemed to open faster. From that day on I started using wayland on my computers.
I don't know, folks. I hear about Wayland from every corner of the Linux community, but I had mostly a bunch of issues and zero benefits compared to X. The most recent ones were, for some reason, a full-screening video on RUclips would shut off the screen for a few seconds. It's not a big deal, but it's irritating. Sunshine straight up doesn't work on Wayland, i spent the whole day trying to solve this issue but gave up. Screen sharing is a pain in the ass. General stability is questionable. I can go on for a while. The point is that to replace X, Wayland needs to be better in the user experience category first. I don't care about how fast and secure it is because I can't use software that has fewer features and works worse than older ones.
Please report the issue to the devs of the desktop environment/window manager you are using
If you are in vfx X11 is the only option. Wacom tablet , dual monitor setup and vfx applications(in my case Sidefx Houdini) is not usable.
Dual monitor works just fine on Wayland
@gljames24 yeah sorry I mix that up. It is the other way around.
Does it have xdotool yet?
Ydotool is your friend
@Vitis-n2v next is swappable compositor
kdotool for kde
*real* programmer here, who actually has to code X11, Wayland etc, and not a koolaid drinker. Despite the hype that wayland is a "better" "easier" "simplified" protocol, it could not be further from the truth. The wayland protocol is overly complex, a lot of boiler plate code, and not at all intuitive. The X11 protocol on the other hand is very straight foward and mimicks other popular APIs like Win32. The legacy code could have been taken out of X11 to get the same or better results than Wayland, and would have not broken the entire API landscape.
They're not talking about the APIs but the source code of the servers/protocols.
Your GUI library should handle writing Wayland/X11/Losedows/FagOS code in its backend anyway so, it doesn't matter than Wayland's API isn't as easy as XCB (I suppose you talk about XCB which is more complicated but allows you to write faster apps because of asynchronous calls. If you talk about libX11, then you compare apples with oranges...).
Unless you are rolling out your own UI toolkit using your own graphics library, or if it's a game, you are rolling your own engine. you shouldn't notice a thing as a developer. As a fellow developer, you sound full of sh*t
X12 when?
@deckard5pegasus673 unless you are making your own graphics libraries, you shouldn't notice a difference as a programmer. If you are doing that for any reason other than learning how they work, you are doing it wrong, and you can use X11 with Wayland compositors anyway
@@moussaadem7933 First let's get the propaganda out of the way. XCB was created for asynchro communication and to limit round trips. Xlib also has the ability to do Asynchro and also can batch calls. There is no real reason to use XCB.
Also GTK3 uses Xlib, not XCB. Albeit Qt does use XCB, and doesn't perform any better.
Yes I use low level calls Xlib, and stay away from both GTK and Qt. I don¡t like either for different reasons.
Also I make my own window managers, which with X11, is straight forward and clean. Doing this is Wayland is unthinkable.
It's really smooth on my AMD laptop, but it's so unstable compared to X11 on that same laptop. I've tried it under Ubuntu and Fedora but it crashes from time to time (stable on X11), and some things always crash it. Now I'm back to PopOS with X11 and to quote Todd Howard "It Just Works"... :)
Too be fair, Wayland was quite stable when I tried KDE, worst was a KDE crash but it resumed itself without crashing all my applications which were running, so it might just be a Gnome + Wayland thing. It's just that I prefer Gnome on my laptop, so it'll be X11 for now.
The other thing on wayland is that its implementations are not created equal. KDE has different quirks from Gnome wayland which differs from other executions. I haven't tested or researched between them but it has helped drag behind the implementation as it's not quite as simple as going for x11 and calling it a day.
Wayland + nvidia + kubuntu is not good out of the box without tweaks for me (especially suspend behavior), however with tweaks it has been largely successful and I blame some of my issues on some kind of faulty hardware problem that resulted in bluescreens on windows and usually only seems to crash plasma-desktop on wayland, and only one irrecoverable system freeze (did not test X though). The other main issues with wayland generally do not affect me although building the latest pinta on kde has some interesting behaviors and there are other odd bugs which I tend to blame on wayland. Not game breaking, speaking of which, games have generally run quite well.
Typical case of Second System Problem, that is:
"The Second-System Effect, also known as Second-System Syndrome, is a phenomenon in software engineering where a successful initial system or product is replaced by a more complex, bloated, and often less successful successor"
Thankfully, in this case, the second system is a simpler one, with less bloat, and is successfully getting better and better because everyone is adopting it and it has a compatibility layer for the old system
I suspect you havent actually had to work with x11 from a backend POV.
Wayland is like butter, X11 is like a sandpaper.
@BitTheByte Write a window manager for X11 then try to do the same for wayland.
@@deadpixel64 there's no concept of a standalone window manager in Wayland like in X11. Thanks to the simplicity of Wayland there's no need for an additional layer of abstraction that hide the complexity from you. if you want to make a window manager, you now make it by *directly* Interacring with the low level kernel modules. you can still build on top of existing projects like wlroots
They did a sort of anti-second-system effect with Wayland. They wanted it so simple that they refused to implement various really basic features for years and tried to sell it as necessary security, then wondered why it took so long to get everyone to use it (it's damn near 2 decades old now!)
Don't get me wrong, X11 is very old now (and it shows!) and it was always complex and hard to work with. I'm just extremely disappointed that, even if they did learn from their time working with X11 (though this is by no means clear to me), the Wayland folks seem to have invented brand new ways to mess up, taking way longer than they were supposed to and finally abusing us when we don't switch to their incomplete, alpha quality software. I've mostly tuned them out since they started with that last part.
Wayland isn't there yet.
I need macros, i need programmable mouse control and keyboard input.
Preferably some redshift type of thing.
As far as i know the first things are not possible in Wayland for reasons.
The last, that being redshift, might be a thing but now its compositor specific, as are many damn things, whereas that could be achieved far easier on x.
I know Wayland is the future, and that's fine. But i don't like that it's being shoved down our throat and pretending to be ready for everyone.
It's ready for the normie user that only really uses the browser, maybe libreoffice here and there. Not for everyone everywhere.
As long as I can have my screensavers, I will love Wayland.
Wine 9.22 was installed recently on my Arch Linux via an update, it didn't use Wayland, even though it's capable so I had to edit the Wine registry to force it to use wayland and X11 as fallback..
To me, all the issues of screen tearing have gone away since Wayland became default.
Do you game a lot?
@@SavvyNik No. I am not a gamer.
Excellent News. It's about time.
we're going to the moon
I use wayland because steam game run smoothly with wayland and super stutter with xorg. So I just switch all my pc and laptop to wayland for consistency.
Excited for wayland but it doesnt seem to be ready as the default for those with nvidia. I did see its been getting better and better with each driver release which is great
Huge list of broken stuff in Wayland that just works in X11.
Explanation: This means Wayland is good because it is being improved 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Been using a bunch of wayland tiling compositors (sway, hyprland, river, niri, ...) on NixOS with no issues other than some compositors refusing to implement xwayland because x11 is too old and shit to deal with apparently.
I used to have the same problem. However, I just searched and thankfully, Niri's wiki talks about "xwayland-satellite". Have a look at it!
I already use Wayland on my Desktop but don't use it on my Laptop because of graphics artifacts due to AMD driver issues regarding AMD's mobile chips in Laptops using High resolution and high refresh-rate displays. This bug has been plaguing me and others for months now and I really hope this gets fixed soon...
I think it's good as long as it's well done. From what I understand, the people maintaining X are the ones developing Wayland. So it's pretty inevitable. I hope it opens the door for more bloated and archaic holdovers from Unix to get cleaned up.
I've been using X11 and Wayland for a while, and both are interesting... and painful to use.
For me, X11 feels so old and applications for Linux in general tend to look like that (I know that ricing your setup is possible, but takes its time). Wayland based apps just feel better, but with a lot of issues, like if they were in beta.
The fact is that X11 still has a solid, but outdated, ecosystem, while Wayland has a more modern, but in-developmet one.
Only trouble i have with wayland currently is some game steam games are blurry you apply fractional scaling and not being able to screen share on the official discord app.
Ironically, both of those issues are because those programs are using X11!
Do you mean X12?
Wayland is good, but I'm still using X11 because Anki doesn't work well with it. Hopefully that will be resolved soon. To be specific, when I try to add audio to an Anki card under Wayland, it doesn't always take, but I have no problems doing that under X11.
Wayland's decision to change behavior since time immemorial around server-side window decorators makes window management in programs that don't implement their own decorations (read: a _lot_ of them) pretty broken. It's a bad idea to default to it while huge swathes of software will frustrate users around simple stuff like window management.
its privacy and security because it can be harder to detect screenshot on x11 wayland blocks it be default so you have to override if you use automation python apps like i create for example! but its not impossible it just annoying having to rewrite code!
:(
Is this good? Is there any Microsoft behind wayland?
I always love videos about Wayland.
Wayland is the future!
The main reason I use X11 over Wayland is that I love Nemo file manager cause of it's ease of accessing the open as root in the systems files area and on Wayland it only kinda works. So untill that's fixed I'll stay on X11.
This topic would also work with Pipewire replacing Pulseaudo. Now this one bothers me more so then Wayland vs X11 cause for me Pipewire is more audio then I would ever need and Pulseadio does everything I need and more over Pipewire in that Pulseaudio as a god-sent of a plugin that is called SWH-plugins that combined with Pavucontrol and a well placed script gives your whole system a dynamic range compression that I just can't live without sense I watch alot of RUclips. The lows are not. and the highs are also not. Just nice level volume all the time. 🙂 So in my mind Pulseaudio still as a solid place for alot of people like myself that just need sound and a good compressor and nothing else and it bothers me that Pipewire is so pushed and even so damned interrogated that is almost sometimes impossible for the average user to get rid of it to replace it with Pulse.
Pipewire-pulse is a drop in replacement for pulseaudio and should support all the features that pulseaudio has. You just have to configure it.
@@Vitis-n2v You are 100% correct. Pipewire-pulse will replace Pulseaudio. but not plugins specifically made for Pulseaudio and they won't work with- Pipewire-pulse. Thrust me I've spent months on the subject and tried the plugin already and it didn't work.
Yeah, that’s the point.
Wayland is working better for me even though i have hybrid nvidia and intel graphics ❤❤❤
Well, it won't take over mine any time soon. That's for sure. Last time I checked, it wasn't stable for my needs. I'll give it another 15 years.
I remember when the next big thing was Mir with Unity running on top. Where is it now? :D
Did they fix gstreams on nvidia+kde?
wayland is not the default in wine like this made it sound, it is just enabled by default now. x11 is still used over wayland. if you remove xwayland somehow it will use wayland. good luck with wine+wayland and older games like you mentioned. resolutions changing is wonky or just busted. and basic wine windows and menus get placed haphazardly by your wm last i tried. just using regedit to re-enable x11 over wayland was harder than it should've been.
glad icons were finally accepted. but window positions/placement is still dragging on...
I'll stay with X until I can find the info I need to theme Qt applications in Wayland outside of KDE. I need a dark theme because light themes hurt my eyes. There are also some Labwc issues I haven't figured out yet, but those will have to wait until the theming issue is resolved.
Qt5ct and Qt6ct?
@@spatiumowl Tried both. I suspect I'm not setting some variable required, but I don't know what it might be. There are also differences between apps. Some take dark themes, others not, and some that take the dark themes don't take the Kvantum ones.
@haplozetetic9519 This variable QT_QPA_PLATFORMTHEME=qt6ct
The environment variable is exactly what enables qt6ct to theme the APP, add it to your /etc/environment
@@Caique_.-. I'll look into that. Thanks
links are not available in the description
Still more buggy and broken today than the decades old X11. And bases on the development way it's being happening, it seems we'll never get any better than X11. It's sad to see Linux in this lack of good future perspective.
maybe if they didn't use flatpak portals and put the security pop-ups in wayland itself like android security permissions...and then didn't dance around decision making for months or years to just have a security option for basic things everyone has been using for decades and are clearly used. EWMH added them for a reason, right? because youre so totally going to get everything perfect the first try...sure thing. there's still horrible naming in wayland code like there was X. i guess min/max may not be macro defined somewhere tho -_-
Last I heard, Wayland did not support easy network fluidity like X always has. And there was some argument as to why it shouldn't and never would. This makes no sense to me. How can people claim that this is the future, that this is somehow superiour to X? Are they just coming from Windows/Mac myopia where network transparency has never been imagined? How can Raspberry Pi use Wayland? Don't they realize that many of their use cases are headless, with only power and network connections? What are you supposed to do if you have a lab full of dozens of Raspi devices to manage from one desktop, install an HDMI switch box? Ridiculous! Maybe my info is just old and by now they've rethought and fixed this, but a project that at any stage thought maybe it didn't have to deliver at least the same network flexibility as X, is simply not for me.
I’ll switch to Linux once Wayland has the features I need and supports multi touch.
blah :(
*Can I have it on arch xfce?*
Perhaps in 10 years... 20 years tops.. I'll be able to plug it into my tv and it'll work in HDR...
Not at 120 hz though, obviously. HDMI 2.1 is a mystery best left to the gods to unravel.
I mean that already works on KDE plasma
All im missing from wayland is autokey
There is nothing of interest for me in Wayland. It has basically a phone mentality, while I still live in the world of networked computers
X11 is the best
Did you really not mention the most important of why it's seen as future proof ?
Wayland was created by a lot of the people who used to work on X. X had become a messy system, the architecture was designed over 40 years ago.
So Wayland is a more performant messy system. It's cleaner by design, but a lot of things are left to implement by the applications and systems that use Wayland and for some reason they often don't share libraries to do so. Which means Wayland support will very from application to application, often hopefully it's just part of the toolkit like GTK and QT.
for me, wayland sucks. a major flaw is removing the client/server architecture i have 5 linux machines at my house. remote graphics is essential. graphical remote performance monitoring is impossible on wayland. do not remove X11 support.
Have you tried waypipe?
Wayland is just a protocol how to deal with it is the job of the compositor, waypipe is a proxy that acts as a compositor on one system and then just sends it to a real compositor on another system.
Wayland IS a protocol with a client/server architecture
@@JonasLomp Having to download a bunch of modular solutions when the functionality should be packaged out of the box is the literal issue.
Wow, fan boy much? Hard to believe an entire video about Wayland without mentioning network transparency. And the lack of accessibility features is a major issue; Lennox is already turning off a lot of users with its complexity, and now we’re turning away users who need assistive technologies to even use the system.
I feel like it’s taken so long for Waylon to get off the ground - it’s like 15 years old now - and I wonder if now they’re just nibbling around the edges. I’m just not convinced it’s the correct replacement for X 11 and it’s a solid foundation for the future.
Except that Wayland is horrible for accessibility apps.
More like Wayland is being forced on more and more Linux users.
Is overtaking? overtook long ago for me, it just works, and less bugs than x11. Gaming, Digital Drawing, and general daily usage, everything works fine and bug free. I'm pretty incompetent for this kind of stuff and still work for me, so if doesn't work for someone else it's kind of a skill issue to be honest.
Wayland blows. I cannot use my stylus in gimp or Krita. It just blows.
Accessibility is not optional. I'm pretty disgusted that this wasn't considered something that MUST NOT REGRESS from X11/Xorg. Just the usual level of implicit societal ableism I guess :-(
Accessibility is NOT optional. Thats why we need more attention on wayland via having more people use it thus being invested in its development to potentially donate their spare time into betting compatibility with accessibility features.
I 100% agree. Anyone should be able to use their computer regardless of disability. Its just a shame so many talented developers are refusing to work on it because "X11 was fine!" and despite the inevitable shift that unless something changes like these people switching their development efforts over to wayland, a lot of disabled individuals are going to be in a world of hurt.
"Wayland is Policy, not Mechanism."
This means it forces you to do something a certain way and provides no functionality itself.
In other words, it's garbage.
As a developer or user? As a user I don't really notice anything I have to do a certain way on Wayland. Mostly just application support issues which is slowly going away.
As a developer I haven't run into much problems although I don't make system software, more productivity apps and dev libraries.
It's a standard so all applications can work no matter the implementation.
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
POV: you don't understand what a protocol is
Why u big mad sugarpie
First??
Oh my
I'm guessing you’re excited for Wayland! 😉
@@SavvyNik yes. X11 served us well for literally decades now. But it needs to rest now and let the young blood take over.
@@mohitkumar-jv2bx It all depends on what one is doing. Wayland isn't all that great for artists that have Cintiqs and Wayland isn't all that "young". Sure it's "younger" compared to Xorg, but considering it's been well over a decade and still has the small papercut issues, sure make it an option, but not the standard until those are fixed.
@ yeah I agree. I am only a casual wayland user living in terminal and browser. For artistic needs, it probably is not the best option right now. But it’s great to see it being developed so fast amd getting supported by so many distros
dont use rpi os its bs use ubuntu! loads more stable!
have you been having issues on pi os?
Using PikaOS4-hyprland. Wayland is great and the future.
Except that Wayland is terrible for accessibility apps