Jonathan here, inviting you to check out Mended Light, my new channel dedicated to healthy relationships and trauma healing, as referenced in this episode. Please subscribe if you find it helpful! ruclips.net/channel/UCAicfSzczJb_-nK6tW0TxHw
Okay so I know your channel has been booming lately, and rightfully so because your content is amazing and the chemistry between you is the best. But now that you're discussing Marvel, especially if you include Thor's despression, Wanda's grief and Bucky's guilt, it's gonna grow massively. That Marvel audience is massive
Thank you for doing this! As a Marvel fan and trauma survivor, I loved this episode! Though, I'd say that my PTSD manifested more like Thor (not going out, avoiding people, questioning if I was still worthy etc), not Iron Man (though I recognize not wanting to talk to people and the panic). Will definitely check your new channel out. Keep up the good work!
honestly tony stark was one of the only characters with that kind of personality in action movies that showed realistic symptoms of ptsd and anxiety (like that panic attack) and oh boy, iron man 3 really hits hard on that domain
Agreed! I don't know if this was true or not but apparently RDJ really pushed for IM3 because Marvel was initially iffy about it and didn't want to 'weaken' Tony and showing different sides of him but Robert really wanted to show the toll these superhero lives can take dealing with the shit that they do and that Tony isn't a supersoldier or God and there's a real person bleeding and hitting the ground in these battles and felt the need to explore that. If that's true, I'm super grateful he did.
@@jfox8600 I mean, if anything it strengthened his image as an absolute survivor, fighting the odds even when everything is going against him, even his own subconscious, and most importantly, he ends up winning against it all.
"PTSD occurs when you think your world is safe, and then you realize it's not." - as someone who has suffered from PTSD this line really struck me. Ironman is my favorite superhero, love that you guys are doing this series.
That makes so much sense and explains why childhood trauma is probably the hardest to deal with, and sticks around for life. Realizing as a child how unsafe and vulnerable you are without people caring for you, and how defenseless if someone is victimizing you.
That line hit hard for me too. I dont have PTSD from the events that are more commonly associated with it but this line covers everything that has lead to my PTSD.
Tony grabbing the snow during his PTSD episode is actually a real coping mechanism! It's grounding, using your senses to bring you back to reality and remind you the PTSD/anxiety attack isn't real
Thanks for pointing this out! There was that second moment where he's having another panic attack. Sitting on the ground and grabbing onto the car's door handle trying to ground himself back as he tries to calm down. Wow never noticed these things, nice observation
And the cold itself helps interrupt the nervous system's overstimulated reaction. In a pinch, running cold water over your hands can help a lot, if you can manage that complex an action or can pre-plan it into your crisis plans with your support network.
Tony Stark not only accepted that he was going to die, he also realised that it wasn't going to be enough, not even death would save the people he loved.
That seems like a key factor for me, not just having to relinquish control but believing it still won't resolve the problem or protect the people whose safety you feel responsible for?
OMG you’re right… I just realized he passed out while he was falling and he didn’t know they got the portal closed in time until he regains consciousness. Also, he had no way of knowing that the aliens were going to die as soon as the nuke hit their ship. Last he remembers, the aliens were still tearing up the city and the nuclear blast was still going to hit New York.
It's more like when he sees what's on the other side of the gateway he thinks: "this stunt might not actually work" And he wakes up, with the city secure from that one invasion Did he win? Yes, but He didn't see it
I really wish more people paid attention to the fact that Tony didn't actually start dating Pepper until after she was CEO and no longer his employee. He always thought of her as an equal but there was no question of a power imbalance in their relationship, which is so important.
@@hanakoskokeshidoll it sounds worse then it is but it makes sense if your around fighting couples alot if one side can just rely on the other its better for everyone fights start because of money
@Rose Dreamsinger 8 month old comment but it's not as simple as you think (as everything ultimately never is) Why would a woman settle for less when she can have something better? If the man doesn't earn as much and isn't as smart then it makes sense that she would find someone better. I bet there are numerous other variables and perspectives on top of that.
I honestly think what makes Tony's relationship with Pepper work is Pepper. Even before they became romantic, Tony knew that he could trust Pepper with anything. Then as he evolved into a better person, she forgave who he used to be, and was able to trust him back more and more over time. Not every partner is willing to go through all that.
Yes! I think they work because pepper is the one person who has been there and supported him through everything. She was there at the start and she never wavered
Deep down, I do think that Tony never truly left the cave, emotionally and mentally. We never see him whole and healed from that traumatic experience, leaving him leaping from one suit and 'not a great plan' to another. And that makes his tragedy even worse.
“Bruce Wayne died since he was 8. The one who exists after that is Batman.” The same can be said for Tony, since he is Batman of the MCU. “Tony Stark died in that cave. The one who came out is Ironman.”
@@nont18411 wow, that is very true. The only thing keeping him sane was Peter, because he had somebody who needed him, but as more then Ironman. Peter would have cared for and needed Tony even if he wasn’t Ironman. Then we can’t forget Morgan and Pepper. They were the things that made him Tony again, even just for a while. But when Peter got turned to dust, he was a wreck due to lose and guilt , but then when they cut to five years later, he is content.
As someone with chronic PTSD, sometimes I can be "triggered" out of an episode with a word or an action. The PTSD isn't cured, but the panic attack will end.
This has only happened to me once, but it was unforgettable. During one of my first panic attacks, my dad (who I had never heard swear before in my life) swore, and it shocked me so much that the panic attack just stopped. I was still shaky, but it pulled me right out of my spiral.
It's never been this fast, but I've been pulled out of a full blown panic attack by a reminder that I can do something to fix my safety. Doing things always helps.
I have a very strong mom-friend override mechanism that will shut down a panic attack when i am needed to take care of something in service of others. but if i need to get things done to take care of myself, i cannot shake the panic.
True, I didn't remember at first but that did happen to me once, strangely by a "friend" I was texting for help, thinking I might be having a heart attack and not sure what to do, and her being very rude telling me to just stop overreacting. Instead of that making me further entrench into what was actually a panic attack, it got me out because then I was just pissed at her callousness in the face of a possible life threatening event.
I think the reason the kid saying "you're a mechanic, right?" helps tony calm down almost instantly is because that's always been his happy place and how he escapes hard things. It's how he gains control. The kid basically took him from a place where he feels he has no control and reminded him that he does have *some* control and I think that can be super calming
Totally agreed. The kid should be a freaking therapist. He handled Tony’s PTSD perfectly. I also like that he had Jarvis to tell him that his vitals were normal and he was probably having a panic attack. When I had bad anxiety early on in college it took months and a doctor’s appointment or two for me to get that type of reassurance.
It's more so what he says after that, "Why don't you build something?" Even in the first movie, before he goes to Afghanistan to show off his Jericho missiles, he's several hours late because he's tinkering with a motorcycle. He built a circuit board as a toddler. He loves creating things, and creating things has saved his life several times. That's probably what calmed him down, knowing that he can just build something to deal with the problem.
I'd argue that Tony's been dealing with PTSD since he got out of the cave. Everything he's done since has been on his own terms 100%, he was seizing control and he was protecting himself as much as possible. But the nuke/wormhole/sudden unexpected alien invasion combo was on a whole other level.
That’s my theory, too. I think he had a milder case of PTSD ever since he was kidnapped and got the shrapnel in his chest. I think he also has a severe case of survivor’s guilt after watching multiple people who tried to protect him (first all those soldiers who were assigned to guard him on his way to and from his missile test, and then Yinsen) die horrible deaths. He’s clearly struggling with his mental health throughout the whole series.
Up until what the MCU started doing with it's Disney+ shows, to me, Tony Stark was the most real, HUMAN (for lack of a better term) member of the MCU, he was a real gem. It's one of the main reasons why he was always my favorite character, and why I'm still a bit salty at the fact that MCU/Disney let the Russos basically flush him down the toilet at the end of Endgame, and all because they couldn't figure out how to give Tony a satisfying conclusion and just opted out for a cheap "peace=death" conclusion (I *hate* writers giving that trope to "troubled" characters with a burning passion), and all because they were too constantly focused on freaking Captain America to even try and bother doing any of the other characters justice. So glad that the Russo era of the MCU is over.
@@AnInsideJoke oh my god same, and im glad im not the only one who noticed the whole "mentally ill characters are at peace when they die" rather than arcs like "hey maybe dont???? Get therapy??? You areny irredeeemable???!"
@@weasel7491 it's why I think Bucky is a WAY superior character to Sam in the new TFaTWS show. Because Bucky actually has a character, has reasons for the things that he does and the way that he acts. Sam on the other hand is just ... bland.
@@draochvar9646 Correction, Sam WAS bland, and that was under the Russos. He's another prime example of what I was talking about in my last comment. Anthony Mackie has shown with the new series that he's a fantastic, versatile actor and that there's so much more to Sam Wilson as a character than what the MCU was previously allowing him. But under the Russos, he was such a non-presence and given so little to do that you could have straight replaced about 1/3rd of Falcon's scenes with a cardboard cutout of him.
4:45 "You're going to kill yourself, Tony, and I'm not going to be a part of it." It took 22 movies, but Tony literally killed himself. To protect the people. And Pepper was absolutely part of it. Aaaaand now I'm crying.
@@chadfalardeau5396 i think it does count in this specific quote because pepper originally said that because now he’s not just making weapons he’s putting himself into the weapon and in harms way, and he was doing that for the sake of others
And I bawled when he died in End Game... but I know it had to be that way. Could you imagine how utterly insufferable Tony would have been if he'd literally saved the universe and lived?
@@Luubelaar It did not "have to be that way". You think Tony started Endgame as he was in IM1? He would have been happy he saved Peter (and others, but mostly Peter), and that he still had his girls. And yes I think he'd always be arrogant, but you know, what's he supposed to do act falsely modest?
He sacrificed himself for happenstance, I'd think it would have been more ironic if Tony and Cap had recreated their own villain. Although pepper did show up when the mess was made, by I guess Nebula?
I remember my first meeting with a therapist. She asked me about my childhood and I said it was better than some and worse than others. Several months later the point finally hit home. Trauma is trauma. It is not a competition. Get help. It is worth it.
@@MiFelidae A mentor of mine said that to me once. She didn't want me to act as if I experienced more hardship than I did. Because my certain experiences weren't as graphic as others', then I couldn't act like I understood where people who've had it worse are coming from. I know what she meant, but it made me feel like what I actually *have* gone through wasn't as bad, and therefore I shouldn't feel as triggered by it. Wasn't ideal haha. 0/10 recommend saying others have it harder.
21:37 "The wheezes are so realistic" Yes! Little detail that impressed me. As someone who has asthma and panic attacks, it was surprisingly...comforting?...to see a panic attack in a movie that didn't sound like an asthma attack. At least for me, they are very different.
I thought it was interesting because mine are usually very closely linked. I have asthma which can send me into an anxiety attack which of course worsens my asthma. So, I've never really been able to tell the difference. Like I know the difference from which starts but once Im in the spiral I cant tell which is which.
I have exercise-induced asthma and general anxiety disorder, but I didn't find out about the asthma until later. However, I would have panic attacks due to not being able to breathe, and I thought the not breathing was due to the panic. Once I got the inhaler, I figured out that if I can't breathe I can just use the inhaler and suddenly my panic about breathing diminished a lot, even when I didn't use the inhaler. Just the knowledge that I could made it easier to deal with. Also, the difference that I feel between having a panic attack and having an asthma attack is that in a panic attack I feel like I can't suck in enough air through my throat, while in an asthma attack I feel like my lungs are full of woodchips. So if I feel woodchips I get the inhaler but if I don't feel woodchips then I do a grounding technique.
I remember before I realized I was experiencing panic attacks, I thought that I was having asthma attacks again like when I was a kid; I still had an inhaler as a just-in-case thing, so I tried using it and of course found it didn't help at all. Some time later I realized oh, these are panic attacks. No wonder the inhaler didn't do anything
As someone with PTSD/anxiety, I've been in crisis situations where I could pull it together because someone around me was in crisis. After they didn't need me, I'd fall apart, but when THEY needed me, I could do it. I can't necessarily do it for myself, but I can for others, if that makes any sense.
Not trying to compare to PTSD, but honestly, this is how my wife and I got through the early years with a newborn. When she was going nuts, I felt calm. We were never both going nuts at the same time.
I have exactly the same thing, my mom had to go to the hospital suddenly in an ambulance 3 times just this year alone and I refuse to cry infront of her.
It wasn't even accurate when it was first said - end of Iron Man 1 - Tony knew that overloading the factory arc reactor while he was in the blast range should kill him, if not by sheer force then by disrupting the reactor in his chest - and he told Pepper to do it anyway. The fact his chest reactor restarted when it was already in such bad condition (not used, serviced or maintained in a while, hastily reinstalled, probably took a hit or two during the fight, insufficient to power his suit and therefore BADLY overstretched and then depleted to almost zero BEFORE being completely overloaded AND short circuited) was a matter of pure luck and in reality, only happened to provide the possibility of a sequel, instead of Tony just dying right there and then. So Cap's statement never actually held water to begin with.
@@ThePeterStuartPalmer Also true of Tony's criticism of Cap. Cap got the serum because he'd already proven himself to be special (his desire to protect, not backing down from a just fight, jumping on the grenade, etc.). The things that make Cap special didn't come out of a bottle, same as Tony is more than his suit. It's an idea which is reiterated in every single movie that Cap or Tony appear in.
@@cjboiss5779 I’m pretty sure that the point of that scene was that both Steve and Tony were wrong about each other. They were judging each other based on footage and stories and bad first impressions.
@@magnusprime962 I have to wonder how much Howard talked about Steve when Tony was younger. We know between the films and Agent Carter that Howard did care about him. How much of Tony's dislike for Steve started with that praise for Steve but not Tony? We know Howard cared but he didn't realize just how much until much later in his life.
@@magnusprime962 Also fairly certain that during that fight, both Steve and Tony were being affected by Loki's scepter's influence (which contained the mind stone, though we didn't know that yet at the time), as was everyone in the room. You can see the way Tony feels the affects when they're interrupted by Thor, right before the explosion on the Helicarrier puts all of them into action.
Pepper was the first consistent person in Tony's life, most likely since his mother. Tony was afraid of commitment because commitment implicitly comes with the risk of loss. Pepper persistently showed Tony love and compassion that he had been avoiding. He was only able to experience it because his guard was down due to her job title, but Pepper cared about Tony beyond her job due to her compassion and humanity. Pepper was the first person Tony felt he needed since his defense mechanisms were established. He couldn't help but fall for Pepper because he got a taste of the one thing he needed, and for that reason, he couldn't lose it, and more importantly, her.
Which is why I guess by the time they show us Maria Stark in Civil War, turns out she actually looks a lot like Pepper. And the fact that he and Pepper are in a rough patch while all these external events are forcing him to re-live the trauma of losing his mother is so important that the movie sets up the two things back to back when it introduces Tony, right before giving us the "official" motivation for his actions.
Although I agree with all this, we also shouldn’t forget Rhodes! He was basically the BFF/older brother he never had, except... he wasn’t around nearly as much with his job and all...
You also have Jarvis It wasn't just the name of his AI, but also the name of his father's butler. I would imagine he had enough of an impact on Tony where he felt the need to name the system after him.
@@melindoranightsilver9298 Yes, absolutely, him and Rhodey I felt were responsible for his upbringing to be honest. XD (Especially in the post-uni/accident years.) I don't think the loss of Jarvis in AoU is nearly recognized enough within the canon verse.
@@natalies8498 YES!! I don’t think people really appreciate just how gut wrenching losing JARVIS was to Tony, JARVIS was the one thing he thought he wouldn’t lose, and he did. His rock, his fail safe, his omniscient and ever present guardian and butler. He already lost his first, human one, so he built another that would never die, but he did, and I’m not sure if the movies portrayed his reaction to that as well as they could have. They sort of sweep it under the rug almost. Granted, a bunch of shit is going on at the moment, but still, heartbreak and trauma waits for no one.
One scene I think they missed in this was the scene where he throws himself into his work. He's got the PTSD and the insomnia so to cope he builds suit after suit after suit. I think it's a fascinating coping mechanism and so in line with Tony's character. He's already handed off management of the company and the title of CEO to Pepper so all he has left is his personal lab and his suit building. Ironically, some of his best innovations for his suits come out of it but the cost to his psyche, relationship with Pepper and physical health is super high.
There's another video that analyses this with the notion that Tony is building these suits which are specialised, fragile and disposable because after New York he realises he might not be enough. What if there's a falling building? What if a mission requires stealth and he doesn't have Natasha or Hawkeye with him? So he builds a suit for every scenario imaginable, and Mark 42 is the penultimate being a suit and can be summoned at will and apparently can also respond to panicked sounds because it walked into his room when he was having PTSD nightmares and accidentally summoned it. It's basically a paranoia induced engineering mania. He builds a suit made for assisting construction, and then he thinks "what if the building collapses?" And builds a suit that can hold big structures (Igor), and then he thinks "What if the Hulk goes berserk?" And he builds Hulkbuster. So on and so forth. Every time he finishes a suit, he realised he didn't think of yet another scenario. He wants to cover his bases as much as possible, and every time he thinks he has it covered he realises he missed one, and another, and another. If he didn't recover from the PTSD he would have build possibly over hundreds of suits specialised to every scenario possible
I would argue the point with “snapping out” of an anxiety attack. My husband for example will sometimes say the wrong things and I’ll latch onto it and it makes it worse when he’s just trying to help and I react how Tony did in the first scene. Then there are times when he just sits with me, rubs my back and says “you can do it, just breathe and count the books on the wall, you’re stronger than whatever made you panic, it’s okay.” And I feel stronger and I feel like I can claw my way out so much more quickly. And for me it has happened - only twice, granted - that I was able to snap out of it within a few seconds
I've had that happen to me, not from PTSD but from panic attacks in general. Generally it's much harder to do, but a few times something clicked or something happened that drove me back to reality.
I also think there was more to Tony snapping out that panic attack. He was panicking due to the suit not charging, he’s gonna be without a suit, he can’t do anything, etc. He’s basically spiraling. The kid mentions making something, which Tony is very very good at. He’s not so much snapping out of a flashback, he snapping out of a despair spiral. He knows he can fix this.
@@spudthepug I've never dealt with PTSD, but I think he's helped by having a very strong motivation to climb out of the hole. Pepper is in danger, and he has to save her. He needs to be Iron Man, but he can't be Iron Man, so he'll just have to go back to the metaphorical cave and come up with something. He's done this before, he'll do it again.
They said they think it was possible so I don't how this count as arguing against their point, they didn't say it never happens just that it's not common.
Iron Man 3 was not well received (even I admit it’s not in my top list of MCU films) but one article I read really angered me, because the reviewer, who if I recall correctly, admitted to not being a therapist, but said something along the lines of “that’s not how PTSD works.” As someone who is not a therapist but does suffer from PTSD, the way RDJ acted out his panic attacks was very similar to the way mine would hit me at times, most often without warning. So yeah, that is in fact, how PTSD can “work.”
AS an artist, I can say that bursts of consuming creativity really override anxiety, which is why Tony had so many suits and had to "tinker" in order to better control his surroundings. I may not have PTSD, but I completely understand Tony Starks creativity motivations. I enjoyed the movie and enjoyed the characters growth and acceptance.
I actually really like IM3 and one of the reasons is the portayal of mental health issues. That reviewer also really doesn't know anything about since it was even used as an example of a realistic depiction of PTSD in a psych textbook.
I think IM3 was kinda weak in regards to villains/fights, but at least to me, that's not really what the movie was about. The most common complaint I saw was that "we want to see Iron Man kick some ass, not see Tony Stark struggle" and that bothered me SO much, because what makes the MCU so good *is* that the characters are more than just some bland cardboard cutouts used as vehicles for pure action.
The kid was surprisingly insightful, actually. Most kids don't know about PTSD, let alone the various coping mechanisms. I'm sure everyone remembers at least one situation as a kid where we were trying to be helpful but came across as obnoxious/nagging.
Kids know if something isn’t quite right. They might not know the details, whys, all that but they’re smarter than most ppl give them credit. They can understand how to help (in their way)
I also think this kid is old enough/smart enough to start picking up on the conversations the adults have around him and he lives in a smallish town where people have gone out to war so he's probably heard PTSD being thrown around. But it's also a movie and making him be the sounding board to help the viewers realize Tony knows deep down he needs help but he's avoiding it was good writing in my opinion
Considering how shit the USA is many kids know a vet. I knew vets as a kid and i knew they were "broken" it wasnt PTSD back then it was shell shock. George Carlin commented on the toning down of the language making the issue seem less horrific. Personally as someone with Complex PTSD, i would prefer I less sanitised name. but all i can think of is Constant Fight Fight Response or Consistent Near Death Terror, so many things set me into hightened awareness.
So two things from the Avengers scene that indicate Tony's really stinging from Cap's comment: 1) he breaks eye contact for like a fraction of a second. 2) the first part of his response, his voice is noticeably strained. By The Avengers, Tony really wants to think of himself as a good man, but Cap just cuts his legs out from underneath him with that comment
The only thing though is Cap is completely wrong about Tony in that scene. Both Tony and Cap don't actually know each other, they're speaking based on assumptions and reputations. Tony was willing to make the sacrifice play at the end of Ironman 1. He tells pepper to turn on the arch reactor while he was still in the way. He just happened to get pushed back to safety because of plot armor.
@@captainmarvelous7678 THANK YOU! I’m so tired of no one recognizing that Cap was incorrect and kinda being a big douche nugget in that scene. He doesn’t know who Tony *is*, only what he’s heard of him and feels totally free to make assumptions off of very little fact. And while obviously Cap views “sacrifice play” as this uber righteous, life-on-the-line move, I feel like in reality, sacrifices can come in many forms. Even him immediately planning on gutting his fathers long-standing work in weapons manufacturing because he saw what it was doing in the world is a sacrifice play. He was willing to lose his entire livelihood and undo the work of a man he’s spent his entire life battling for the respect of because it was better for humanity. A sacrifice play defend the other guys.
@@MothmanInHisChibiEra I think cinemawins had a great comment on this. We see the tesseract has a kind of antagonistic effect on everyone, it makes those emotions bubble and fester, if you notice, there is a Dutch tilt on thor and he's slurring his speech like he's had one too many drinks. It brings out their frustration and anger which makes sense because they aren't really a team just yet.
15yrs ago out of the blue I got diagnosed with a congenital heart condition. It took me through the same journey which Tony Stark had with his heart, a few years later. I an fully understand why they'd pay that guy a million quid a movie; he nailed it! The look on his face at first of penance and terror, the one party where he completely lost it, the vegetable shakes, the exercise bike.. and the final dealing with the problem like a grown-up. More power to RDJ for his performance.
I think its ironic because i think the reason why everyone likes Tony and hes so popular is because his flaws are so glaring. Hes charismatic and funny but we see his growth from him being dramatically egotistical to wrecked with guilt and the later coming to terms with his PTSD it allows people to grow with him and it feels like you can know him as a character. Characters with no flaws usually suck because it never feels like a actual character and they can't grow.
I completely agree. It’s why I like to write flawed protagonists in my stories. I do a lot of my writing in the Star Wars universe mostly just for fun, and I have this one character who’s home planet was bombed by the empire and she and some of the other survivors have to relocate to the planet that most of my stories revolve around. Anyways, she was 17 almost 18 when it happened and her parents were killed in the attack. Her mentor who’s another father figure survived, but her whole world was turned upside down. She’s a warrior in a culture that doesn’t really encourage discussing your trauma or being vulnerable, but she has a lot of grief and anger and pain she’s working through. She builds this wonderful new support system that helps her start to heal, and then something else happens that brings it all back and she realizes how little she’s actually healed. She gets some closure and help working through those emotions in the end, but I trying to make the point that healing’s not a linear process and you never really forget things like what she went through. Just make room for it.
In Spider-Man homecoming he even tells Peter he’s proud of him because he wants to break the cycle of fathers not telling their sons they’re proud of them
crying because tony was really more than a mentor for peter, and we barely saw their interactions together before they had to kill tony off. this is why i squirrel myself away with some good fanfiction, sometimes...
@@nebullae Denial is such a wonderful place, right? I live there, and "Endgame" doesn't exist in it. (Mostly, though, because it infuriates me with how it was written. I could live with Tony dying - but not with that amount of cheese they topped it with. Not to mention me ranting about the Cap-ending, and now I'm ranting again and I'll be back in Denial shortly. Sorry for this. Have a good day :-)
@@frizzlethecat2084 hah i was surprised to see my year-old comment but it still stands, lol. i agree completely- i understand why they ended tony’s arc with his heroic death, but everything else was… unsatisfactory to say the least. but i also don’t want to get myself started because then i won’t be able to stop 💀
This is why Tony is my favorite. I have always argued that he was the most human of all the avengers, which people don’t agree with me about. This video helps show what I have been saying for the longest time.
Tony was such a gem in the superhero movie world. He actually got hurt physically from fights, and paid emotionally and mentally as well. So few heroes have that realistic, human weight. Also, sadly realistic is how everyone, even his friends, either don't notice his struggles or don't know how to react to it in helpful ways.
I remember watching this movie for the first time and being awed that they let a superhero have panic attacks like that, really stresses how human tony is and how most marvel movies are just about people who happen to be really good at a thing
Honestly, bless them for that courage. Marvel does a great job in making their characters "human" - and I think it's time people see these kind of things more often, so they have an idea of what it's like (if they don't know themselves) - and also to grow acceptance for this. Too many people still think they're weak if they struggle with mental health. It's awesome when heroes are shown having these struggles and still be able to be a hero.
The other thing about that scene when Tony is watching the news and starts blasting things in the room: It's interesting that they chose the glass walls, because glass naturally makes a reflection. Tony sees his reflection when he turns around, and because he hates who he was, he blasts away the image, that person he wishes to put behind him. And while he does still exhibit a certain amount of egotistical behavior after everything in Iron Man 1, putting distance between himself and his old life does actually play a role in his ptsd - it's half the reason he eventually turns to relying on his suits instead of relying on himself. The incident in New York is the other half of the picture, when no matter what he does, he has no way out. In effect, it teaches him that he can't rely on himself to save himself or anyone else. Combine that with guilt and self hatred, and you get the Tony who searches for something else to rely on. The kid saying "just the right thing" snaps him back to reality a bit, I think because Tony made that mental transition without even thinking about it. He was so lost in his panic and anxiety that he didn't even realize that he was putting all his trust into a suit instead of the ingenuity behind the creation of that suit. In the end, half his struggle through ptsd is also a hard lesson in humility. His pride and ego had been broken, and he didn't know what to do with himself because he relied on that for so long. After all of these events, he learns to reexamine and accept the good parts that he had, but in a different light. It really sets the stage for him in the upcoming movies, especially Civil War, because his ego would never let him accept the Secovia accords, but a humbled Tony Stark (who also learns after Avengers 2 that he doesn't always make good decisions even as a reformed man) would.
That is a really good insight and I love how these movies put light on these things and actually make it so deep. Your right in what you said and it's good.
Oh my god... This just made me realize why Tony never called Cap in those two years. Like in AoU he tried relying on his tech AGAIN, because he felt like and the Avengers won't be enough due to the recent trigger he experienced from Wanda's magic. He asked them "How are we going to fight that?" Cap says "Together." Tony takes that reassurance that they'll have his back, that he could rely on them. But then CACW comes along, turns out Cap had lied to him, most of the Avengers went with Cap, and Tony... Tony more or less ended up alone dealing with the impending doom from the future haunting him. Like, if Cap lied to him about his parents, what else did he lie about? Did he lie about the Avenger's being his home? Did he also lie that Tony could rely on him? He probably questioned himself of those. While I understand some of the conflict in CW is partially Tony's fault (and Cap is also partially at fault), that act... Well, it probably did some untold emotional damage to Tony, I think.
I love this comment for the way that it describes anxiously grasping for *something* you can trust and hold onto, so you know things will be okay--and the anxious vulnerability and dependence you experience when that thing/person that you trust can't be you. When Tony's suit fails, he loses the hope he placed all his security in, the future becomes extremely dark and unavoidable, and he has a panic attack. When the kid points out that there might still be a way for things to be okay and that there are still ways he can trust himself, I think those are beautiful, powerful messages (conveyed so innocently) to combat his fear. I also love that the kid gave him those messages through a question. It wasn't "I believe in you," or "you can do it!" or some other phrasing that inadvertently would have required Tony to choose blind confidence or to trust a child's judgment instead of his own. By asking a question, he opened the idea that the "secure" solution might not be the only way forward, and he inadvertently invited Tony to fill in the blanks for "how?" with something he could believe in. It was both showing Tony how to hope, and increasing Tony's ability to trust himself at the same time. I love that.
Tony's arc was largely effected by the new york invasion. He saw how unsafe the world really is, and how powerless he is to stop great threats. That feeling of powerlessness, and seeing how unsafe you really are, is a common factor in ptsd. Its the thing that inspires him to build ultron, to help prepare for a thanos level threat.
He was also having clairvoyant visions (not possible in real life obviously), which must be terrible when added to his PTSD and negative thought pattern you described above.
Peter and Tony's relationship feels like a tangified representation of inner child healing, but instead of Tony imagining talking with his inner child, he talks to Peter, whom he has watched begin to experience the same trauma he did. As a PTSD survivor, I can imagine the desperation.
15:30 I think another thing that affects Tony so much is the fact that he physically went into space and faced aliens from another dimension. His brain would be scrambled just trying to process that. We hear him say as much in Age of Ultron. How incredibly insane such a thing is, would completely alter how a person percieves their reality, in a way that psychologically, we have no real way of quantifying, cuz it's never actually happened.
Last year, I took an Abnormal Psychology class and one of our assignments was to write a paper diagnosing two fiction characters from either movies or TV. I chose to do Tony Stark from the MCU and I diagnosed him with PTSD. It was one of my favorite papers to write.
That is often how my anxiety attacks work, although that’s not PTSD-related. I experience negative thought spirals: a thought like “I’m not ready for this” going to “I suck” to “everyone would be happier without me”. If someone successfully interrupts that spiral, then I can start thinking productively about the problem. It doesn’t exactly “solve” the problem, my mind can do that on it’s own once it stops self-sabotaging. All it does is distract me long enough to make productive thoughts (along the lines of “how can I prepare for this?”) possible. That’s kinda how I read that scene. The kid didn’t “cure” Tony, he just interrupted Tony’s spiral of negative thoughts. Reminding him that he’s an engineer just served to take Tony’s mind off the failure of his suit plan, long enough so that his mind could supply him with an idea for how to fix the problem at hand. He has enough adrenaline in his system that he can focus on the task at hand. Now when the adrenaline wears off... but Pepper is safe and that’s what matters.
Also, he knows he's good at being an engineer, it's literally a safe space for him. That's why I tend to watch my "safe space"-movies when my anxiety hits.
The negative thought spiral you described sounds very familiar to me. One moment I can be totally fine, then I do one thing wrong, or just a chain of small wrongs and my mind spirals exactly like you described. Once I realize what’s happening, distraction (preferably doing something that requires total focus) is the only way to stop this train of dark thoughts. Doesn’t work every time, but it’s the only thing that works. At least that’s my experience.
@@LadyCupcake01 I have that, too! A downward spiral of horrible thoughts and their accompanying horrible feelings. I usually can't distract myself, I just sob until I'm done and do my best to get through the rest of the day 😬
I have anxiety attacks and I can easily descent into a downward spiral of negativity. When that happens, I can't do anything to snap out of it. Though, I never tried "grounding" so I am going to try it out, see how that improves my anxiety.
Agreed. One of my friend’s interrupted my negative spiraling while I was going through a full blown panic attack once not so long ago and it pulled me out it and I calmed down with thirty seconds. It was really quite amazing. It turned out I could handle the situation all along 🙂
I would disagree with Tony’s lightbulb moment “fixing” his attack. I have had these situations where I am in a full blown panic mode, usually triggered by helplessness in the same way tony feels helpless without his suit. He can’t force the suit to charge so he feels under pressure without a play, until the kid points out he’s not entirely helpless. He takes a few moments to process while ignoring whatever else is being said, and refocuses his thoughts to solving the problem. His (and my) adrenaline is still flowing and his heart rate is still elevated, but it’s come down from even 20 seconds ago. At least for me, panic attacks don’t stop like a brake pedal, they recede back to baseline anxiety like taking your foot off the gas.
I was watching just fine, then he said "weather you've been through emotional abuse, Physical abuse" and in an instant I started tearing up. My ex gf became physically violent during the worst argument we'd ever had, it was only one time, it didn't physically hurt much, but every once in a while I remember the shear emotional stress I felt in that moment, and I will sob for about a minute before bottling it back up. What gets me most is the shame I feel about crying about something that happened over a year ago...
Emotional scar hurts more since it can last for very long time, even to lifetime. Even if you forgive the person who hurted you, the act still lingering and haunting you everytime. And I really resonate with that
I'd love for you to touch on Thor's depression in Endgame. I feel like even the movie makes light of it and I think I speak for a lot of people when I say we'd love to see you two cover it! Combining therapy with cinema is such an intriguing concept and you guys would do it justice!
I don’t think the movie make light of Thor’s depression, I think we do. The first time I watched that movie I laughed at Thor, because it was so unexpected, but the second time I was prepared for it and I found Thor really touching in all his fake bravado.
@@Xehanort10 Is it? Is it though? The other avengers' lack of empathy is a flaw on them, not on Thor. And on you if you still think "bro Thor" is a joke, even now in hindsight.
I think personally from suffering from PTSD & growing up with having numerous panic/anxiety attacks a week, one of things that hit me from that scene with the kid talking to Tony over the phone, is that the kid unintentionally was guiding him in “grounding”. “Grounding” is a technique that’s used to help a person during an attack, by attaching themselves to a truth or something stable, whether that be physically (like holding onto a stone or feeling the textures of the carpet) or mentally (grasping onto a truth or repeating a mantra). And I think that both forms of “grounding” is what the kid was implying; first telling Tony, “you’re a mechanic, build something” is a truth. Tony knows that building things is something he’s good at, something he’s familiar with & this makes him feel in control & safe. The second, is that being a mechanic requires you to work with your hands, get dirty, do physically hard things, & work your body. There’s no better physical grounding tool than that! Maybe with that combo is what kinda “snapped” Tony out of his PTSD but I agree with them, in that no one “snaps” out of an anxiety or panic attack. It usually takes me a good day & a half to fully recover from an anxiety attack & about 40 mins to recover from a panic attack. And even then I can relapse & have another one. But grounding has been so helpful to me & I encourage anyone else who struggles with panic & anxiety attacks to find what grounding method works for you!
Comments like this are why I love this channel. I have anxiety but never experienced PTSD. Thanks for sharing, I think "grounding" might help me as well
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe "Psychological trauma is damage to a person's mind as a result of one or more events that cause overwhelming amounts of stress that exceed the person's ability to cope or integrate the emotions involved, eventually leading to serious, long-term negative consequences." -- it's not 'exclusive' to military or law enforcement (mental/physical abuse, childhood trauma, violence, heavy bullying etc.) -- it can happen to anyone, many men probably tend to talk less about it or don't seek the help of s.o. who can diagnose it. Also, don't ask what s.o.'s PTSD is from, it's a very private matter! The worst you can do is tell them they don't have it because they weren't in the military or sth.
You know there was a fan theory that Peter Parker was the only person able to feel what happened to him during the snap because of his Spidey sense. That just makes it 10x worse because he’s looking at the dad he has always wanted and saying I need your help, and Tony can’t do anything to save him.
Agh, that scene is horrible. Not just Peter's blip, but Tony's reaction. He just sits there, eyes closed and rocks himself back and forth. So vulnerable.
RDJ really did such an amazing job at portraying PTSD and the panic attacks following. I personally have some issues with that because of a brother and my family keeps mentioning him even though I always beg them not to and it immediately makes me break down, just like Tony. Suddenly it just becomes so difficult to do simple things like breathing and thinking straight, everything in your head is just filled with painful memories.
I got weird looks from people who didn’t know about my PTSD (they were joking about IVs and then I suddenly got anxious and they wondered why. I just said something along the lines of “I have bad memories of stuff like that” and they seemed to understand a lil, but that was still embarrassing.)
To a degree, I feel his earlier personalities were reflections of the overall PTSD. The Narcissism, the Elitism, they were all coping methods developed to get through a life of trauma that started with losing his parents and never really having a chance to process that loss.
Yes! And even before their deaths, the fact that his dad never seemed to have any time for or emotional investment in him at all, that will mess a kid up. Add to that a well above average intelligence and unlimited wealth… voila.
What I hate about PTSD and post trauma responses is the triggers can be so random and often unexpected. My third, and last miscarriage was the most traumatic and of course, baby announcements, baby clothes, and baby associated things were major triggers. But I didn't expect raspberries to be a trigger. It took quite a while until we figured that one out. Baby had been the size of a raspberry when my husband had tossed a wild raspberry to me on a nature walk we went on. I failed to catch the raspberry and I can vividly remember the juice splattered on the rocks and a weird feeling of dread at that. I still don't like raspberries much, but I can look at them and walk past them in a grocery store now without feeling nausea or a cold sweat or breathing too quickly.
Hey, one of my triggers is spoons, you know, that utensil you eat with? Sometimes I know why (I know why in the case of spoons and red polo shirts and the phrase “it is what it is”) and sometimes I don’t (in the case of driving anywhere except the tiny town I’ve lived in for ten+ years, like, what’s up with that? You’d think it’d be the other way around, right, since most of my trauma happened here? Whatever I guess). It’s just what your brain focuses on in those memories and sometimes it’s super frustrating bc it’s something really common and you can’t avoid it. What I’m trying to say is, I understand what you’re saying and I want to validate you bc I know that it sucks
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe After the birth of my first living child I had postpartum depression. After my third miscarriage it was different. My doctor informed me that I just had regular old depression now. I also suffered from a missed miscarriage for the last one which meant that baby died at 9 weeks but I didn't find out until 12 weeks. The process wasn't finished until almost a month later. With my other losses, it was around the 6 week mark, (basically a few days after the positive test), so I thought that at nearly 12 weeks I was "safe". That came crumbling down after I found our baby has died and we hadn't known until we couldn't find a heartbeat.
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe My first two miscarriages weren't as bad as the last one where I thought the risk was over. The fact that I thought we were no longer at risk and that it took a very long time and many medical appointments was what made it a bad traumatic experience.
Tony Stark’s character isn’t a narcissist-he is behaving narcissistically. People with NPD do not feel remorse for their behaviour, nor do they change to become genuinely altruistic.
I love the Cinema Therapy guys but calling Tony NPD ignores too much of his backstory and deeper moments. I feel like if you have to say “unlike most narcissists, Tony does …” that many times, he’s not a narcissist in a clinical sense. Not to mention, all of my psychology studies in school made a massive point of not diagnosing a disorder when there can be alternative motivations which with Tony, there absolutely is when you factor in his father, his upbringing, his lifestyle, etc.
@@MothmanInHisChibiEra I agree! Within the first five minutes of Iron Man, we see him fail to show up for an award ceremony celebrating his accomplishments. Surely a narcissist would enjoy something like that but Tony clearly doesn't. He only feels bad about missing it when he learns Rhodey, his best friend, was gonna give it to him. I think he's always held a deep feeling of self-loathing due to his childhood and how his father treated him, and uses this mask of ego and narcissism to cover it.
I felt bad disagreeing with an actual therapist, but I was like "Isn't part of the point of a narcissist that they have no thoughts or feelings that would allow change?"
@@mage1439 It's totally fine to disagree with someone! Therapists themselves disagree with each other all the time. It's also worth noting that they probably haven't watched the Iron Man movies a million times like myself and others have. They're just looking at clips here.
There's something I think you guys missed at about 5:50. Tony looked at his reflection in the glass, flashed anger and disgust, then shot his own reflection, not just once but three times.
The scene in Homecoming where he tells him about if he's "nothing without this suit then you shouldn't have it" is one of my FAVORITE scenes. And when Peter dusts in Infinity War 😭😭😭
I knoww. It's so good. I really agree with them saying that iron man 3 really built it up for homecoming. Because yeah he really did learn a lot and he wants to teach peter. It's one of the best scenes.
I just love that scene in Avengers with Tony and Steve. Both their dialogue foreshadows what is to come for them both AND they prove each other wrong. “You’re not the one to make the sacrifice play.” And “everything special about you came out of a bottle.” Tony makes the ultimate sacrifice in Endgame and Steve is able to wield Mjölnir. So good!!!!
@Joshua Kelly lifting the hammer has nothing to do with physical strength! You could be the strongest person ever and still not be worthy, just like Thor wasn’t worthy for a time. That’s the whole point; all the things that make Steve worthy are things that he already had before the serum! Steve isn’t only special because of the serum. He got picked because of the traits he already had. Steve was “not a perfect soldier, but a good man.”
@Joshua Kelly i just wanna say, i understood what you meant, and i think that Steve would've struggled. Even with the enchantment, the hammer is described to have weight. Vision himself said the weight of the hammer is "terribly well balanced". Judging by the size of the hammer, it's definitely heavier than a regular hammer you'd use for a nail. I'd definitely think he'd struggle to swing that thing around with his old body that's basically just walking bones.
Please talk about Thor and his experience with depression, it is interesting how they treated Tony Stark as compared to Thor's depression to make many jokes. I would like to hear your opinion on how they portrayed it.
The man's home was destroyed by his half sister and loads of Asgardians were killed, Thanos killed his adopted brother and what probably hit Thor hardest was the fact that if he'd just killed Thanos instead of trying to make him suffer first the snap wouldn't have happened. But instead of treating how all that affected him seriously it was "Ha ha he's fat and plays Fortnite."
Maybe Marvel will touch it in upcoming movies, cause Tony's case also spread on multiple movies. They could make Thor's mental health steadily getting better or even getting worse.
@@Xehanort10 not everyone lays down in bed in a dark room crying. It’s common to just let loose, eating, drinking, and sitting on the couch playing games when depressed.
When Tony had a panic attack, I felt him. I had one in August and it felt the same. I wanted to leave, but I couldn’t. I felt weak, adrenaline pumping for hours and couldn’t be myself for days.
I feel you, I had a similar experience. My last panic attack wasn’t that bad, but gosh I remember the last one I had that was that bad, I was a shaking shell for days. I couldn’t go to work, I could barely eat, I just kind of had to be still and recover.
Tony having panic attacks is so important to me because I get them ALL THE TIME. And knowing that one of my all time favorite SUPER HEROES also deals with them is really uplifting. 20:36 this scene specifically just- the stumbling over words and the stuttering, having to actually stop the car, a small thing having such a large and sudden impact, shaking of the hand, the breathing- it’s all just so validating Not to mention the “oh god, not again.” This statement- anyone who deals with this kind of thing can absolutely relate. It’s when you start to see that pattern, when you first start to notice that “hey, that ‘freak out’ wasn’t a one time thing, it keeps happening and it sucks.” That’s absolutely crushing. You feel hopeless
I hope they look at Zuko in Avatar. I feel like everytime I rewatch ATLA I become more and more impressed with his character arc. With misplaced desires (like regaining his honor was about being accepted by his father), to learning about the world from different perspectives (as a prince then an outlaw), to the cathartic confrontation with his father and deciding not to seize power. I just feel like the whole show has a lot going on but especially with Zuko.
The way tony portrays anxiety and panic is very much like how I act. More controlled but only when others witness it and that is so relatable. Needing to take off layers, stick your face in snow, walk, tell everyone to shut up, I just loved and appreciated how well he showed it.
I've had my fair share of trauma in my past, and weirdly the MCU's handling of Tony's trauma and PTSD is some of the best I've seen in a film. Like, when he has panic/anixety attacks (and yes they're different), I don't just empathise, I can feel them with him. The avoidance tactics, the poor coping mechanisms... I remember coming out of the cinema and my parents didn't like Iron Man 3 because it wasn't the "superhero movie" they expected. But I loved it because it was *the* most relatable I'd seen the MCU be. And it was handled amazingly well.
I think that maybe Tony doesn't actually snap out of the panic attack so much as suppress it. As someone who experiences panic attacks a lot, while it rarely happens, I can suppress the panic attack if someone shouts at me or until I'm in a more safe place. It very rarely happens because suppressing it is worse, but it does happen. So I don't think that Tony "snaps out" of the panic attack; I think he suppressed it
I was having an attack after a difficult conversation with my family. I was in a ward to be helped for those issues. After about 1.5 minutes of panicked SI, my care giver just casually asked “did you know people’s shoes stay where they where hit when they get run over by a car?” And it was the exact right morbid wtf kind of question that I was able to stop and start seeing the real world around me again. That’s why I think it’s so important to have people around you who know that one thing your brain will hook on to if you deal with a mental illness like us.
Exactly, though I don’t think that question would’ve helped me 😂 too morbid for my taste 😆 but I’ll admit it is interesting! I might start telling people to have me name an episode of the Goldbergs from a random season off hand or something. That usually gets me to think. 😆
I believe Tony's anxiety so thoroughly because I have experienced someone say just the right thing to snap me out of it almost instantly. And because of that I learned to either think back to those words or use a mantra I know works. RDJ and his portrayal of Iron Man and the way his character and personal journey have parallels are why he will always be one of the greatest of all time. I will never forget "And I.... Am Iron Man."
"[trauma occurs] when you think your world is safe. . . but it's not." - Jonathan Decker I loved this. It captures perfectly the essence of PTSD. With reference to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, safety is near the foundation. So, I think as far as therapists go, Decker is brilliant.
I got diagnosed with PTSD and General Depression a few years ago due to growing up in an abusive household. (don't worry, i'm in a much better place now) Nothing made Tony feel more real than Iron Man 3. I know people have problems with the movie, but seeing someone like Iron Man experience what you're so familiar with and seeing it portrayed so well gave me hope for reducing the stigma of mental health discussions. This channel alone is such a great force for mental health conversations, and I'm so, so glad you guys are addressing Tony's issues. Thank you for putting these videos out
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe Sir, I would invite you to deal with these issues with a therapist. I understand that projection is a defense mechanism, but it's not my job to make you feel better about yourself. Please leave me alone.
Haven't watched the second part yet so you might have covered this there, BUT.... One key aspect I think you've overlooked is that, in Iron Man 3, Tony is obsessively dependent on the suit. It's his 'safe space', which he retreats to time and again as a crutch - some might argue it's a coping mechanism but, overall, his reliance upon the suit does more harm than good. Being in control of the situation is Tony's Zen and he feels cut adrift without it. When he needs the suit and, despite his best efforts, it's not recharging, he feels utterly helpless - particularly when you're someone like Tony Stark who can't imagine a world where he lacks control. "Then why don't you build something?" With those innocent words, everything comes into perspective. Tony builds things - he designed and built countless weapons; he designed and built both the original miniature arc reactor and the Mark I Iron Man suit in a cave; he designed and built dozens of suits of power armor with differing strengths. Since the end of the first movie, "I am Iron Man" has been his mantra but he suddenly comes to realize those words were a lie. He's NOT Iron Man - he's Tony Stark, the greatest engineering savant on the planet. He doesn't need the suit to invent things; he doesn't need the suit to overcome obstacles; he doesn't need the suit in order to be a whole person. He's NOT helpless and he had control all along - he just needed to think sideways a moment in order to realize it.
Good analyzing 😁. It's exactly what I think and I think it also really builds up the conversation in homecoming when he says " if your nothing without this suit then you shouldn't have it ". It's a awesome conversation.
Also when Tony met Thor he was greeted with a power that he had never known. Thor represented the unknown cosmos. Hulk represented the uncontrollable, meaning that Tony would have to worry about Hulk getting lost in a blind rage being unable to tell friend from foe. Black Widow and Hawkeye were assassins meaning that they could kill Tony if he let his guard down around them too often, which could fuel his anxiety. Captain America was a threat to Tony's ego. Being around Steve made Tony feel smaller in comparison, that no matter what Tony did it would always look insignificant to Steve Rodgers accomplishment in the court of public option. Steve is the man Tony wants to be but he feels like he can't be. Tony respected by also feared the Avengers since he was the weakest member without his suit.
im currently suffering from PTSD. Its a total nightmare, i hate it every day. This episode was cathartic, seeing how well it was portrayed was amazing! Thanks for covering it
I love the scene where tony is watching the news and getting more worked up. To me this is the pivotal scene where he finally decides to be a hero. building the suit, testing, etc was all just prep work and that slow build up to using the repulser to shatter the glass....OMG CHILLS. because he goes from anger, to basically questioning himself one last time to commitment and the next part is him suiting up and just pure focus. LOVE IT
I'm so excited about this! Tony is one of the most beloved characters and definitely my favourite. What RDJ did with him and his emotional growth is phenomenal. Can't wait for this!
Imagine being that kid You run into Tony Stark, help him through some stuff, get rewarded with material goods and a scholarship and you probably think that's it Then the snap happens, world goes crazy, things work out, you find out Tony Stark is now dead, and you were a big enough help in his life that you get the honor of being there at his funeral That seems like a great set up for a next generation of a tech-based superhero
Honestly the way he responds to the vision Wanda gave him was actually kind of a great of showing that he isn't as over his PTSD as he appeared to be at the end of Iron Man 3. He had things to distract and focus him so he could move past it at least for the moment, but he was still supressing those feelings and Ultron really showed that just because someone seems ok and is doing productive things that they can still be struggling even if they are not aware of it.
Recently, I was diagnosed with PTSD and watched this movie again yesterday. When this scene started, I felt awful. Nightmares, traumatic memories and even a mention of the event (or anything that brings it to mind) serve as mental triggers for panic attacks for people like us. Tony was brave in NY when he fought Loki and Chitauris, but it later cost him dearly, his mental health. The same thing happened to me in my life.
Ah man, this is going to be good. It is crazy that I was just thinking about how I'd love to see the break down of the PTSD of the Hunger Games movies and the performances of Jennifer Lawrence and Josh Hutcherson of Katniss and Peeta throughout the three movies and their development. Probably my favourite cinematic evolution of characters amidst such interesting movies. (It's also really cool for the different pyschological behaviour of dystopian society in many different ways; dictators, dillusions, war, loss/grief, propaganda, torture) 🤞Maybe next time.
As somone with (almost daily) panic attacks, spawned from the littlest most insignificant things, the “not again” line is so prominent. That switch from compleatly ok and content to ‘I can’t breath’ ‘I’m going to die’ is so wonderfully portrayed. You don’t expect a film like this so hold such power and have such accurate representation. Though it has its faults, it’s recognision of the struggle is important in itself. And yes, I have had moments where somthing so simple and quick has removed me from this state. Though, as said, it’s not common but it does happen and can be life saving when you feel like your world is falling apart. Cannot stop coming back to these videos, keep up the great work guys!
When Tony's on the border of a panic attack but keeps the snark it fits, it seems like trying to protect himself to me. Using the snark as a sort of defense mechanism
When I took Jono to see Serenity (forever cementing our friendship) we walked out of the theater and he just looked at me and said “You’re Mal!” I felt better about myself in that moment than just about any other time in my life.
I really love Tonys development as a character. It makes him one of my favorite superheroes~ Also him being a father-figure to Peter is my favorite relationship in the MCU!
I watched this movie when it came out. It was freshman year of highschool and I just started in a new state and was super nervous.. this ironically was around the time in my life I started to experience anxiety/panic attacks. I remember watching Tony go through this stuff and it made me feel so much more calm and ready to deal with my own issues. Later on, during that same movie in class, I stood up and physically got in-between two other students that were about to fight each other, and talked them down and convinced them to just watch the movie... despite my own issues with anxiety, this movie and seeing how he handled it gave me confidence to set my stuff aside and do the right thing. I like to think this movie got me through a large part of that year.
What always pulled me out of my anxiety/PTSD attacks was covering up completely in a light blanket like a ghost, and listening to a favorite uplifting song. It didn't make me completely calm, but it did work very quickly and from an outsider perspective I probably looked completely calm after even if internally I didn't. So yeah, the 'right thing' can outwardly snap you out of it sometimes.
I liked the comment about how Tony isn't like most narcissists. Because it's important to remember he's fiction & most people like him won't change & you can't fix them.
I remember watching this movie having gone through some trauma and having extream daily panic attack's. I appreciated the fact that Tony's pain, vulnerability fear is not romanticized but portrayed realistically. It was strangely cathartic to see a hero go through the same struggle as I did. Luckily I got help and guidance from a great therapist. Thx guys for another great video. I enjoy them tremendously and would advise to see the channel 'academy of ideas'.
If you want to cover PTSD more, I recommend that you analyze the character of John Rambo. If there were ever a character driven by traumatic experiences, it was him.
"You're not the guy to make the sacrifice play" "Everything special about you came out of a bottle" The way endgame calls back to these 2 lines is just beautiful.
I really liked the cinematography of Stark staring at his reflection in the window before he 'kills' / blasts his old self image and commits to becoming Iron Man; so visual and in character for him.
I really grateful to you both, that you are doing this episode today. I had a PTSD nightmare overnight and its really thrown me today. I hope I can join the premiere but if not I look forward to watching. Guidance would be very useful.
I always LOVED the PTSD story line of Iron Man 3 - it's the reason that it's my second-favourite Iron Man film - and I thought RDJ did an incredible job portraying his struggling character.
To be fair Tony ptsd isn't just gone after the 3rd movie, he learned to move on he do the operation to lift the metal on his chest but his ptsd is not completely gone, I think when pepper said "you can rest now" at the end signaling that he still has a ptsd even in endgame.
Yes! 😄 Thank you @cinematherapy for this video on Ironman! After Endgame, it looks like I need some therapy. 😂😭From being self-centered and arrogant to being selfless and saving the universe is the greatest character development that I've seen.
Two points I'd like to make: 1) if you think about anxiety remedies, we're all told to breathe into a paper bag, and the kid in Iron Man 3 advises Tony to do so during his anxiety attacks. When we see Tony throw the reactor into the sea from atop the cliff, he takes it out of a paper bag. His anxiety was the suit all along because he'd lost Tony inside it. And 2) I love your intro, going from 'I love cinema' to 'I need therapy' as a way of tipping your hat to one another is a sweet sentiment, but moreso, I love that it normalises needing therapy. Every time I hear you say 'I need therapy' it reminds me to get some and I feel better about that need. Thankyou, you're a fantastic pair and this is a wonderful channel. I love you guys
Tony is that type of person who clearly needs therapy but keeps avoiding it arguing that he definitely doesn’t need it because he’s fine. So I don’t think so
I just want to say, Tony’s anxiety-attacks really resonated with me and felt extremely realistic. Even the part (around 21:45) where he comes out of an anxiety-attack immediately just because the kid talks him through the logic of the situation. As you guys pointed out in the video, it might not be common for people to be brought out of anxiety-attacks this way, but it is often how _my_ anxiety-attacks work. I am a very logical person. When I have a problem (or the fear that I _will_ have a problem sometime in the future) I want the answer, the solution. I don’t just want to be soothed emotionally, I want to be mentally prepared to actually _fix_ whatever the problem is, and when I’m not, that’s often when I start to feel helpless and panic sets in. Sometimes what it takes to bring me out is someone with a different perspective talking me down with reason and offering a logical solution to what my illogical panic convinced me was a hopeless, insurmountable problem.
Jonathan here, inviting you to check out Mended Light, my new channel dedicated to healthy relationships and trauma healing, as referenced in this episode. Please subscribe if you find it helpful! ruclips.net/channel/UCAicfSzczJb_-nK6tW0TxHw
Okay so I know your channel has been booming lately, and rightfully so because your content is amazing and the chemistry between you is the best. But now that you're discussing Marvel, especially if you include Thor's despression, Wanda's grief and Bucky's guilt, it's gonna grow massively. That Marvel audience is massive
Definitely just subbed :)
Thank you for doing this! As a Marvel fan and trauma survivor, I loved this episode! Though, I'd say that my PTSD manifested more like Thor (not going out, avoiding people, questioning if I was still worthy etc), not Iron Man (though I recognize not wanting to talk to people and the panic). Will definitely check your new channel out. Keep up the good work!
More videos from you? Count me in!
Huge Mcu fan, so glad you guys picked this character to dig into
honestly tony stark was one of the only characters with that kind of personality in action movies that showed realistic symptoms of ptsd and anxiety (like that panic attack) and oh boy, iron man 3 really hits hard on that domain
Katniss did, too. Though YA dystopian probably doesn't fit into the genre of superhero movies, come to think of it...
the panic attack felt so realistic it was diffucult to watch as it almost triggered one in me.
Agreed! I don't know if this was true or not but apparently RDJ really pushed for IM3 because Marvel was initially iffy about it and didn't want to 'weaken' Tony and showing different sides of him but Robert really wanted to show the toll these superhero lives can take dealing with the shit that they do and that Tony isn't a supersoldier or God and there's a real person bleeding and hitting the ground in these battles and felt the need to explore that. If that's true, I'm super grateful he did.
I feel like RDJ is familiar with a lot of these symptoms.
@@jfox8600 I mean, if anything it strengthened his image as an absolute survivor, fighting the odds even when everything is going against him, even his own subconscious, and most importantly, he ends up winning against it all.
"PTSD occurs when you think your world is safe, and then you realize it's not." - as someone who has suffered from PTSD this line really struck me. Ironman is my favorite superhero, love that you guys are doing this series.
Same
That makes so much sense and explains why childhood trauma is probably the hardest to deal with, and sticks around for life. Realizing as a child how unsafe and vulnerable you are without people caring for you, and how defenseless if someone is victimizing you.
16:34
I'm dealing with PTSD from Desert Storm. I'm glad the Milwaukee VA has been so good with my treatment.
That line hit hard for me too. I dont have PTSD from the events that are more commonly associated with it but this line covers everything that has lead to my PTSD.
Tony grabbing the snow during his PTSD episode is actually a real coping mechanism! It's grounding, using your senses to bring you back to reality and remind you the PTSD/anxiety attack isn't real
Thank you that's an amazing information!!
Rdk did such a good job I almost felt those panic attacks that he was acting out😭😭
Thanks for pointing this out! There was that second moment where he's having another panic attack. Sitting on the ground and grabbing onto the car's door handle trying to ground himself back as he tries to calm down. Wow never noticed these things, nice observation
RDJ really did an amazing job showing what a panic attack is like and how sometimes it just hits you!
And the cold itself helps interrupt the nervous system's overstimulated reaction. In a pinch, running cold water over your hands can help a lot, if you can manage that complex an action or can pre-plan it into your crisis plans with your support network.
Tony Stark not only accepted that he was going to die, he also realised that it wasn't going to be enough, not even death would save the people he loved.
That seems like a key factor for me, not just having to relinquish control but believing it still won't resolve the problem or protect the people whose safety you feel responsible for?
OMG you’re right… I just realized he passed out while he was falling and he didn’t know they got the portal closed in time until he regains consciousness. Also, he had no way of knowing that the aliens were going to die as soon as the nuke hit their ship. Last he remembers, the aliens were still tearing up the city and the nuclear blast was still going to hit New York.
It's more like when he sees what's on the other side of the gateway he thinks:
"this stunt might not actually work"
And he wakes up, with the city secure from that one invasion
Did he win? Yes, but
He didn't see it
I really wish more people paid attention to the fact that Tony didn't actually start dating Pepper until after she was CEO and no longer his employee. He always thought of her as an equal but there was no question of a power imbalance in their relationship, which is so important.
That's so awesome.
@Rose Dreamsinger Seems like you have your own issues and are projecting massively.
@@wyterabitt2149 not rlly ive met alot of guys who want their partner/gf to have less power than them
@@hanakoskokeshidoll it sounds worse then it is but it makes sense if your around fighting couples alot if one side can just rely on the other its better for everyone fights start because of money
@Rose Dreamsinger 8 month old comment but it's not as simple as you think (as everything ultimately never is) Why would a woman settle for less when she can have something better? If the man doesn't earn as much and isn't as smart then it makes sense that she would find someone better. I bet there are numerous other variables and perspectives on top of that.
I honestly think what makes Tony's relationship with Pepper work is Pepper. Even before they became romantic, Tony knew that he could trust Pepper with anything. Then as he evolved into a better person, she forgave who he used to be, and was able to trust him back more and more over time. Not every partner is willing to go through all that.
And she's soooo patient with him. She understands how he "works" and sets clear boundaries and I think Tony needed that to take her seriously.
Here’s my like 👍🏽 because I don’t want to ruin the perfect 111
@Story Picker Yeah, it's also a great illustration of how lasting relationships are a two-way street.
Yes! I think they work because pepper is the one person who has been there and supported him through everything. She was there at the start and she never wavered
When In real life they can't stand each other.
Deep down, I do think that Tony never truly left the cave, emotionally and mentally. We never see him whole and healed from that traumatic experience, leaving him leaping from one suit and 'not a great plan' to another. And that makes his tragedy even worse.
So sad but probably true.
i think he held onto the guilt from the very first movie for the rest of his life. it makes my heart hurt to think about it, but i think it's true.
“Bruce Wayne died since he was 8. The one who exists after that is Batman.”
The same can be said for Tony, since he is Batman of the MCU.
“Tony Stark died in that cave. The one who came out is Ironman.”
Oof
This shit hit hard in a way that can only have truth
@@nont18411 wow, that is very true. The only thing keeping him sane was Peter, because he had somebody who needed him, but as more then Ironman. Peter would have cared for and needed Tony even if he wasn’t Ironman. Then we can’t forget Morgan and Pepper. They were the things that made him Tony again, even just for a while. But when Peter got turned to dust, he was a wreck due to lose and guilt , but then when they cut to five years later, he is content.
As someone with chronic PTSD, sometimes I can be "triggered" out of an episode with a word or an action. The PTSD isn't cured, but the panic attack will end.
This has only happened to me once, but it was unforgettable. During one of my first panic attacks, my dad (who I had never heard swear before in my life) swore, and it shocked me so much that the panic attack just stopped. I was still shaky, but it pulled me right out of my spiral.
It's never been this fast, but I've been pulled out of a full blown panic attack by a reminder that I can do something to fix my safety. Doing things always helps.
I have a very strong mom-friend override mechanism that will shut down a panic attack when i am needed to take care of something in service of others. but if i need to get things done to take care of myself, i cannot shake the panic.
@@rosefong65 Same thing here
True, I didn't remember at first but that did happen to me once, strangely by a "friend" I was texting for help, thinking I might be having a heart attack and not sure what to do, and her being very rude telling me to just stop overreacting. Instead of that making me further entrench into what was actually a panic attack, it got me out because then I was just pissed at her callousness in the face of a possible life threatening event.
I think the reason the kid saying "you're a mechanic, right?" helps tony calm down almost instantly is because that's always been his happy place and how he escapes hard things. It's how he gains control. The kid basically took him from a place where he feels he has no control and reminded him that he does have *some* control and I think that can be super calming
Totally agreed. The kid should be a freaking therapist. He handled Tony’s PTSD perfectly. I also like that he had Jarvis to tell him that his vitals were normal and he was probably having a panic attack. When I had bad anxiety early on in college it took months and a doctor’s appointment or two for me to get that type of reassurance.
It's more so what he says after that, "Why don't you build something?"
Even in the first movie, before he goes to Afghanistan to show off his Jericho missiles, he's several hours late because he's tinkering with a motorcycle. He built a circuit board as a toddler. He loves creating things, and creating things has saved his life several times. That's probably what calmed him down, knowing that he can just build something to deal with the problem.
The only thing wrong with the kid was that he's the token autistic character
That wasn't necessary at all
Aw, I love that!
I'd argue that Tony's been dealing with PTSD since he got out of the cave. Everything he's done since has been on his own terms 100%, he was seizing control and he was protecting himself as much as possible. But the nuke/wormhole/sudden unexpected alien invasion combo was on a whole other level.
That’s my theory, too. I think he had a milder case of PTSD ever since he was kidnapped and got the shrapnel in his chest. I think he also has a severe case of survivor’s guilt after watching multiple people who tried to protect him (first all those soldiers who were assigned to guard him on his way to and from his missile test, and then Yinsen) die horrible deaths. He’s clearly struggling with his mental health throughout the whole series.
Yes probably. He goes through alot theres been scenes in comics where hes traveled through space and the thought of that would be terryfing.😂
I think you've nailed it.
Tony was my favourite MCU character. His characterisation and personal growth and visible mental health issues all made me love his character.
He's the kind of person that you wouldn't necessarily like in real life, but he's great to watch in movies.
Up until what the MCU started doing with it's Disney+ shows, to me, Tony Stark was the most real, HUMAN (for lack of a better term) member of the MCU, he was a real gem. It's one of the main reasons why he was always my favorite character, and why I'm still a bit salty at the fact that MCU/Disney let the Russos basically flush him down the toilet at the end of Endgame, and all because they couldn't figure out how to give Tony a satisfying conclusion and just opted out for a cheap "peace=death" conclusion (I *hate* writers giving that trope to "troubled" characters with a burning passion), and all because they were too constantly focused on freaking Captain America to even try and bother doing any of the other characters justice.
So glad that the Russo era of the MCU is over.
@@AnInsideJoke oh my god same, and im glad im not the only one who noticed the whole "mentally ill characters are at peace when they die" rather than arcs like "hey maybe dont???? Get therapy??? You areny irredeeemable???!"
@@weasel7491 it's why I think Bucky is a WAY superior character to Sam in the new TFaTWS show. Because Bucky actually has a character, has reasons for the things that he does and the way that he acts. Sam on the other hand is just ... bland.
@@draochvar9646 Correction, Sam WAS bland, and that was under the Russos. He's another prime example of what I was talking about in my last comment. Anthony Mackie has shown with the new series that he's a fantastic, versatile actor and that there's so much more to Sam Wilson as a character than what the MCU was previously allowing him. But under the Russos, he was such a non-presence and given so little to do that you could have straight replaced about 1/3rd of Falcon's scenes with a cardboard cutout of him.
4:45 "You're going to kill yourself, Tony, and I'm not going to be a part of it."
It took 22 movies, but Tony literally killed himself. To protect the people. And Pepper was absolutely part of it.
Aaaaand now I'm crying.
Sacrificing yourself to save others doesn't count
@@chadfalardeau5396 i think it does count in this specific quote because pepper originally said that because now he’s not just making weapons he’s putting himself into the weapon and in harms way, and he was doing that for the sake of others
And I bawled when he died in End Game... but I know it had to be that way. Could you imagine how utterly insufferable Tony would have been if he'd literally saved the universe and lived?
@@Luubelaar It did not "have to be that way". You think Tony started Endgame as he was in IM1? He would have been happy he saved Peter (and others, but mostly Peter), and that he still had his girls. And yes I think he'd always be arrogant, but you know, what's he supposed to do act falsely modest?
He sacrificed himself for happenstance, I'd think it would have been more ironic if Tony and Cap had recreated their own villain.
Although pepper did show up when the mess was made, by I guess Nebula?
I remember my first meeting with a therapist. She asked me about my childhood and I said it was better than some and worse than others.
Several months later the point finally hit home. Trauma is trauma. It is not a competition.
Get help.
It is worth it.
I'm still trying to figure out the trauma that led to my triggers going on 18 months
So true! The worst thing you can say to a struggling person is: "Other's have it harder than you."
Very dismissive
I'm so glad you said that. I'm sure I'm not the only one who needs a reminder of that from time to time.
@@MiFelidae A mentor of mine said that to me once. She didn't want me to act as if I experienced more hardship than I did. Because my certain experiences weren't as graphic as others', then I couldn't act like I understood where people who've had it worse are coming from. I know what she meant, but it made me feel like what I actually *have* gone through wasn't as bad, and therefore I shouldn't feel as triggered by it. Wasn't ideal haha. 0/10 recommend saying others have it harder.
21:37 "The wheezes are so realistic"
Yes! Little detail that impressed me. As someone who has asthma and panic attacks, it was surprisingly...comforting?...to see a panic attack in a movie that didn't sound like an asthma attack. At least for me, they are very different.
I thought it was interesting because mine are usually very closely linked. I have asthma which can send me into an anxiety attack which of course worsens my asthma. So, I've never really been able to tell the difference. Like I know the difference from which starts but once Im in the spiral I cant tell which is which.
That definitely makes his panic attack more realistic, because when people have panic attacks and even anxiety attacks that’s what happens.
I have exercise-induced asthma and general anxiety disorder, but I didn't find out about the asthma until later. However, I would have panic attacks due to not being able to breathe, and I thought the not breathing was due to the panic. Once I got the inhaler, I figured out that if I can't breathe I can just use the inhaler and suddenly my panic about breathing diminished a lot, even when I didn't use the inhaler. Just the knowledge that I could made it easier to deal with. Also, the difference that I feel between having a panic attack and having an asthma attack is that in a panic attack I feel like I can't suck in enough air through my throat, while in an asthma attack I feel like my lungs are full of woodchips. So if I feel woodchips I get the inhaler but if I don't feel woodchips then I do a grounding technique.
The one that got me was that gulp! The swallow then imidiate wheeze! It is so accurate
I remember before I realized I was experiencing panic attacks, I thought that I was having asthma attacks again like when I was a kid; I still had an inhaler as a just-in-case thing, so I tried using it and of course found it didn't help at all. Some time later I realized oh, these are panic attacks. No wonder the inhaler didn't do anything
As someone with PTSD/anxiety, I've been in crisis situations where I could pull it together because someone around me was in crisis. After they didn't need me, I'd fall apart, but when THEY needed me, I could do it. I can't necessarily do it for myself, but I can for others, if that makes any sense.
I’m a former firefighter… this makes perfect sense. It wasn’t the chaos it’s the quiet that tears me apart.
@@robadob55I have the same with my ptsd, I feel safe in chaos but when its only me and my thoughts i crumble.
@@robadob55 thanks for your service
Not trying to compare to PTSD, but honestly, this is how my wife and I got through the early years with a newborn. When she was going nuts, I felt calm. We were never both going nuts at the same time.
I have exactly the same thing, my mom had to go to the hospital suddenly in an ambulance 3 times just this year alone and I refuse to cry infront of her.
"Not the guy to make the sacrifice play..." Oof, that makes Endgame hurt so much more.
It wasn't even accurate when it was first said - end of Iron Man 1 - Tony knew that overloading the factory arc reactor while he was in the blast range should kill him, if not by sheer force then by disrupting the reactor in his chest - and he told Pepper to do it anyway. The fact his chest reactor restarted when it was already in such bad condition (not used, serviced or maintained in a while, hastily reinstalled, probably took a hit or two during the fight, insufficient to power his suit and therefore BADLY overstretched and then depleted to almost zero BEFORE being completely overloaded AND short circuited) was a matter of pure luck and in reality, only happened to provide the possibility of a sequel, instead of Tony just dying right there and then. So Cap's statement never actually held water to begin with.
@@ThePeterStuartPalmer Also true of Tony's criticism of Cap. Cap got the serum because he'd already proven himself to be special (his desire to protect, not backing down from a just fight, jumping on the grenade, etc.). The things that make Cap special didn't come out of a bottle, same as Tony is more than his suit. It's an idea which is reiterated in every single movie that Cap or Tony appear in.
@@cjboiss5779 I’m pretty sure that the point of that scene was that both Steve and Tony were wrong about each other. They were judging each other based on footage and stories and bad first impressions.
@@magnusprime962 I have to wonder how much Howard talked about Steve when Tony was younger. We know between the films and Agent Carter that Howard did care about him. How much of Tony's dislike for Steve started with that praise for Steve but not Tony? We know Howard cared but he didn't realize just how much until much later in his life.
@@magnusprime962 Also fairly certain that during that fight, both Steve and Tony were being affected by Loki's scepter's influence (which contained the mind stone, though we didn't know that yet at the time), as was everyone in the room. You can see the way Tony feels the affects when they're interrupted by Thor, right before the explosion on the Helicarrier puts all of them into action.
"So quick-witted."
"Alas, I admit it."
You have awakened my Hamilton soul. Time to blast the soundtrack again. 😂
Good I wasn’t the only one that noticed this lol
Does that mean they will react to hamilton? Because I am here for it.
I was looking for this comment 😂
@@Noa-no-o Oh my God, yes! 🙌🤩
As soon as he said it I was like "Well I know what I'm watching tonight ."
Pepper was the first consistent person in Tony's life, most likely since his mother. Tony was afraid of commitment because commitment implicitly comes with the risk of loss. Pepper persistently showed Tony love and compassion that he had been avoiding. He was only able to experience it because his guard was down due to her job title, but Pepper cared about Tony beyond her job due to her compassion and humanity. Pepper was the first person Tony felt he needed since his defense mechanisms were established. He couldn't help but fall for Pepper because he got a taste of the one thing he needed, and for that reason, he couldn't lose it, and more importantly, her.
Which is why I guess by the time they show us Maria Stark in Civil War, turns out she actually looks a lot like Pepper. And the fact that he and Pepper are in a rough patch while all these external events are forcing him to re-live the trauma of losing his mother is so important that the movie sets up the two things back to back when it introduces Tony, right before giving us the "official" motivation for his actions.
Although I agree with all this, we also shouldn’t forget Rhodes! He was basically the BFF/older brother he never had, except... he wasn’t around nearly as much with his job and all...
You also have Jarvis
It wasn't just the name of his AI, but also the name of his father's butler. I would imagine he had enough of an impact on Tony where he felt the need to name the system after him.
@@melindoranightsilver9298 Yes, absolutely, him and Rhodey I felt were responsible for his upbringing to be honest. XD (Especially in the post-uni/accident years.) I don't think the loss of Jarvis in AoU is nearly recognized enough within the canon verse.
@@natalies8498 YES!! I don’t think people really appreciate just how gut wrenching losing JARVIS was to Tony, JARVIS was the one thing he thought he wouldn’t lose, and he did. His rock, his fail safe, his omniscient and ever present guardian and butler. He already lost his first, human one, so he built another that would never die, but he did, and I’m not sure if the movies portrayed his reaction to that as well as they could have. They sort of sweep it under the rug almost. Granted, a bunch of shit is going on at the moment, but still, heartbreak and trauma waits for no one.
One scene I think they missed in this was the scene where he throws himself into his work. He's got the PTSD and the insomnia so to cope he builds suit after suit after suit. I think it's a fascinating coping mechanism and so in line with Tony's character. He's already handed off management of the company and the title of CEO to Pepper so all he has left is his personal lab and his suit building. Ironically, some of his best innovations for his suits come out of it but the cost to his psyche, relationship with Pepper and physical health is super high.
There's another video that analyses this with the notion that Tony is building these suits which are specialised, fragile and disposable because after New York he realises he might not be enough. What if there's a falling building? What if a mission requires stealth and he doesn't have Natasha or Hawkeye with him? So he builds a suit for every scenario imaginable, and Mark 42 is the penultimate being a suit and can be summoned at will and apparently can also respond to panicked sounds because it walked into his room when he was having PTSD nightmares and accidentally summoned it.
It's basically a paranoia induced engineering mania. He builds a suit made for assisting construction, and then he thinks "what if the building collapses?" And builds a suit that can hold big structures (Igor), and then he thinks "What if the Hulk goes berserk?" And he builds Hulkbuster. So on and so forth. Every time he finishes a suit, he realised he didn't think of yet another scenario. He wants to cover his bases as much as possible, and every time he thinks he has it covered he realises he missed one, and another, and another. If he didn't recover from the PTSD he would have build possibly over hundreds of suits specialised to every scenario possible
I would argue the point with “snapping out” of an anxiety attack. My husband for example will sometimes say the wrong things and I’ll latch onto it and it makes it worse when he’s just trying to help and I react how Tony did in the first scene. Then there are times when he just sits with me, rubs my back and says “you can do it, just breathe and count the books on the wall, you’re stronger than whatever made you panic, it’s okay.” And I feel stronger and I feel like I can claw my way out so much more quickly. And for me it has happened - only twice, granted - that I was able to snap out of it within a few seconds
Same. I have snapped out of panic attacks on a couple of occasions. Not that often, but it has happened.
I've had that happen to me, not from PTSD but from panic attacks in general. Generally it's much harder to do, but a few times something clicked or something happened that drove me back to reality.
I also think there was more to Tony snapping out that panic attack. He was panicking due to the suit not charging, he’s gonna be without a suit, he can’t do anything, etc. He’s basically spiraling. The kid mentions making something, which Tony is very very good at. He’s not so much snapping out of a flashback, he snapping out of a despair spiral. He knows he can fix this.
@@spudthepug I've never dealt with PTSD, but I think he's helped by having a very strong motivation to climb out of the hole. Pepper is in danger, and he has to save her. He needs to be Iron Man, but he can't be Iron Man, so he'll just have to go back to the metaphorical cave and come up with something. He's done this before, he'll do it again.
They said they think it was possible so I don't how this count as arguing against their point, they didn't say it never happens just that it's not common.
Iron Man 3 was not well received (even I admit it’s not in my top list of MCU films) but one article I read really angered me, because the reviewer, who if I recall correctly, admitted to not being a therapist, but said something along the lines of “that’s not how PTSD works.” As someone who is not a therapist but does suffer from PTSD, the way RDJ acted out his panic attacks was very similar to the way mine would hit me at times, most often without warning. So yeah, that is in fact, how PTSD can “work.”
AS an artist, I can say that bursts of consuming creativity really override anxiety, which is why Tony had so many suits and had to "tinker" in order to better control his surroundings. I may not have PTSD, but I completely understand Tony Starks creativity motivations. I enjoyed the movie and enjoyed the characters growth and acceptance.
This is one of the movies that represent my own PTSD. It was absolutely like that, but without super suits
I actually really like IM3 and one of the reasons is the portayal of mental health issues. That reviewer also really doesn't know anything about since it was even used as an example of a realistic depiction of PTSD in a psych textbook.
I think IM3 was kinda weak in regards to villains/fights, but at least to me, that's not really what the movie was about.
The most common complaint I saw was that "we want to see Iron Man kick some ass, not see Tony Stark struggle" and that bothered me SO much, because what makes the MCU so good *is* that the characters are more than just some bland cardboard cutouts used as vehicles for pure action.
@@sleepysera ^^^^^^^
The kid was surprisingly insightful, actually. Most kids don't know about PTSD, let alone the various coping mechanisms. I'm sure everyone remembers at least one situation as a kid where we were trying to be helpful but came across as obnoxious/nagging.
Kids know if something isn’t quite right. They might not know the details, whys, all that but they’re smarter than most ppl give them credit. They can understand how to help (in their way)
I also think this kid is old enough/smart enough to start picking up on the conversations the adults have around him and he lives in a smallish town where people have gone out to war so he's probably heard PTSD being thrown around. But it's also a movie and making him be the sounding board to help the viewers realize Tony knows deep down he needs help but he's avoiding it was good writing in my opinion
Considering how shit the USA is many kids know a vet.
I knew vets as a kid and i knew they were "broken" it wasnt PTSD back then it was shell shock. George Carlin commented on the toning down of the language making the issue seem less horrific.
Personally as someone with Complex PTSD, i would prefer I less sanitised name. but all i can think of is Constant Fight Fight Response or Consistent Near Death Terror, so many things set me into hightened awareness.
So two things from the Avengers scene that indicate Tony's really stinging from Cap's comment:
1) he breaks eye contact for like a fraction of a second.
2) the first part of his response, his voice is noticeably strained.
By The Avengers, Tony really wants to think of himself as a good man, but Cap just cuts his legs out from underneath him with that comment
Great observations on the the acting.
The only thing though is Cap is completely wrong about Tony in that scene. Both Tony and Cap don't actually know each other, they're speaking based on assumptions and reputations. Tony was willing to make the sacrifice play at the end of Ironman 1. He tells pepper to turn on the arch reactor while he was still in the way. He just happened to get pushed back to safety because of plot armor.
@@captainmarvelous7678 THANK YOU! I’m so tired of no one recognizing that Cap was incorrect and kinda being a big douche nugget in that scene. He doesn’t know who Tony *is*, only what he’s heard of him and feels totally free to make assumptions off of very little fact. And while obviously Cap views “sacrifice play” as this uber righteous, life-on-the-line move, I feel like in reality, sacrifices can come in many forms. Even him immediately planning on gutting his fathers long-standing work in weapons manufacturing because he saw what it was doing in the world is a sacrifice play. He was willing to lose his entire livelihood and undo the work of a man he’s spent his entire life battling for the respect of because it was better for humanity. A sacrifice play defend the other guys.
@@MothmanInHisChibiEra I think cinemawins had a great comment on this. We see the tesseract has a kind of antagonistic effect on everyone, it makes those emotions bubble and fester, if you notice, there is a Dutch tilt on thor and he's slurring his speech like he's had one too many drinks. It brings out their frustration and anger which makes sense because they aren't really a team just yet.
@@PersephoneVariety thats the mindstone that was powering sceptor
15yrs ago out of the blue I got diagnosed with a congenital heart condition. It took me through the same journey which Tony Stark had with his heart, a few years later. I an fully understand why they'd pay that guy a million quid a movie; he nailed it! The look on his face at first of penance and terror, the one party where he completely lost it, the vegetable shakes, the exercise bike.. and the final dealing with the problem like a grown-up. More power to RDJ for his performance.
I think its ironic because i think the reason why everyone likes Tony and hes so popular is because his flaws are so glaring. Hes charismatic and funny but we see his growth from him being dramatically egotistical to wrecked with guilt and the later coming to terms with his PTSD it allows people to grow with him and it feels like you can know him as a character. Characters with no flaws usually suck because it never feels like a actual character and they can't grow.
I completely agree. It’s why I like to write flawed protagonists in my stories. I do a lot of my writing in the Star Wars universe mostly just for fun, and I have this one character who’s home planet was bombed by the empire and she and some of the other survivors have to relocate to the planet that most of my stories revolve around. Anyways, she was 17 almost 18 when it happened and her parents were killed in the attack. Her mentor who’s another father figure survived, but her whole world was turned upside down. She’s a warrior in a culture that doesn’t really encourage discussing your trauma or being vulnerable, but she has a lot of grief and anger and pain she’s working through. She builds this wonderful new support system that helps her start to heal, and then something else happens that brings it all back and she realizes how little she’s actually healed. She gets some closure and help working through those emotions in the end, but I trying to make the point that healing’s not a linear process and you never really forget things like what she went through. Just make room for it.
Well, okay, but you’re gonna make me cry, you two are excellent at this.
LOL true, I am already prepared
Yes
I cried many times while watching them
In Spider-Man homecoming he even tells Peter he’s proud of him because he wants to break the cycle of fathers not telling their sons they’re proud of them
crying because tony was really more than a mentor for peter, and we barely saw their interactions together before they had to kill tony off. this is why i squirrel myself away with some good fanfiction, sometimes...
@@nebullae Denial is such a wonderful place, right? I live there, and "Endgame" doesn't exist in it. (Mostly, though, because it infuriates me with how it was written. I could live with Tony dying - but not with that amount of cheese they topped it with. Not to mention me ranting about the Cap-ending, and now I'm ranting again and I'll be back in Denial shortly. Sorry for this. Have a good day :-)
@@frizzlethecat2084 hah i was surprised to see my year-old comment but it still stands, lol. i agree completely- i understand why they ended tony’s arc with his heroic death, but everything else was… unsatisfactory to say the least. but i also don’t want to get myself started because then i won’t be able to stop 💀
This is why Tony is my favorite. I have always argued that he was the most human of all the avengers, which people don’t agree with me about. This video helps show what I have been saying for the longest time.
You were right! They were wrong! Victory!
@@CinemaTherapyShow that sounds sarcastic
@@bvgg833 It isn't. Trust me.
“PTSD occurs when you think that the world is safe and then you realize that it’s not.” That sentence blew me away.
Tony was such a gem in the superhero movie world. He actually got hurt physically from fights, and paid emotionally and mentally as well. So few heroes have that realistic, human weight. Also, sadly realistic is how everyone, even his friends, either don't notice his struggles or don't know how to react to it in helpful ways.
I remember watching this movie for the first time and being awed that they let a superhero have panic attacks like that, really stresses how human tony is and how most marvel movies are just about people who happen to be really good at a thing
Honestly, bless them for that courage. Marvel does a great job in making their characters "human" - and I think it's time people see these kind of things more often, so they have an idea of what it's like (if they don't know themselves) - and also to grow acceptance for this. Too many people still think they're weak if they struggle with mental health. It's awesome when heroes are shown having these struggles and still be able to be a hero.
The Implicitly Pretentious channel has explored the marvel characters traumas in super high detail - check him out it is damn good
I just remember getting really nervous in the theater because I didn't expect them to hit those issues that hard.
The other thing about that scene when Tony is watching the news and starts blasting things in the room: It's interesting that they chose the glass walls, because glass naturally makes a reflection. Tony sees his reflection when he turns around, and because he hates who he was, he blasts away the image, that person he wishes to put behind him.
And while he does still exhibit a certain amount of egotistical behavior after everything in Iron Man 1, putting distance between himself and his old life does actually play a role in his ptsd - it's half the reason he eventually turns to relying on his suits instead of relying on himself. The incident in New York is the other half of the picture, when no matter what he does, he has no way out. In effect, it teaches him that he can't rely on himself to save himself or anyone else. Combine that with guilt and self hatred, and you get the Tony who searches for something else to rely on. The kid saying "just the right thing" snaps him back to reality a bit, I think because Tony made that mental transition without even thinking about it. He was so lost in his panic and anxiety that he didn't even realize that he was putting all his trust into a suit instead of the ingenuity behind the creation of that suit. In the end, half his struggle through ptsd is also a hard lesson in humility. His pride and ego had been broken, and he didn't know what to do with himself because he relied on that for so long. After all of these events, he learns to reexamine and accept the good parts that he had, but in a different light. It really sets the stage for him in the upcoming movies, especially Civil War, because his ego would never let him accept the Secovia accords, but a humbled Tony Stark (who also learns after Avengers 2 that he doesn't always make good decisions even as a reformed man) would.
Well said! Truly, digging your insights.
That is a really good insight and I love how these movies put light on these things and actually make it so deep. Your right in what you said and it's good.
Oh my god... This just made me realize why Tony never called Cap in those two years. Like in AoU he tried relying on his tech AGAIN, because he felt like and the Avengers won't be enough due to the recent trigger he experienced from Wanda's magic. He asked them "How are we going to fight that?" Cap says "Together." Tony takes that reassurance that they'll have his back, that he could rely on them. But then CACW comes along, turns out Cap had lied to him, most of the Avengers went with Cap, and Tony... Tony more or less ended up alone dealing with the impending doom from the future haunting him. Like, if Cap lied to him about his parents, what else did he lie about? Did he lie about the Avenger's being his home? Did he also lie that Tony could rely on him? He probably questioned himself of those. While I understand some of the conflict in CW is partially Tony's fault (and Cap is also partially at fault), that act... Well, it probably did some untold emotional damage to Tony, I think.
I love this comment for the way that it describes anxiously grasping for *something* you can trust and hold onto, so you know things will be okay--and the anxious vulnerability and dependence you experience when that thing/person that you trust can't be you. When Tony's suit fails, he loses the hope he placed all his security in, the future becomes extremely dark and unavoidable, and he has a panic attack. When the kid points out that there might still be a way for things to be okay and that there are still ways he can trust himself, I think those are beautiful, powerful messages (conveyed so innocently) to combat his fear.
I also love that the kid gave him those messages through a question. It wasn't "I believe in you," or "you can do it!" or some other phrasing that inadvertently would have required Tony to choose blind confidence or to trust a child's judgment instead of his own. By asking a question, he opened the idea that the "secure" solution might not be the only way forward, and he inadvertently invited Tony to fill in the blanks for "how?" with something he could believe in. It was both showing Tony how to hope, and increasing Tony's ability to trust himself at the same time. I love that.
It makes his comment in Endgame about losing the kid hit even harder. He couldn't do something you know he promised himself that he would.
Tony's arc was largely effected by the new york invasion. He saw how unsafe the world really is, and how powerless he is to stop great threats.
That feeling of powerlessness, and seeing how unsafe you really are, is a common factor in ptsd.
Its the thing that inspires him to build ultron, to help prepare for a thanos level threat.
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe wrote it going in you silly sausage.
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe going in to the video
He was also having clairvoyant visions (not possible in real life obviously), which must be terrible when added to his PTSD and negative thought pattern you described above.
@@amorecredibleusername692 good addition, visions would mess me up
Funnily enough Ultron was able to take care of Thanos easily… Downside, it destroys humanity.
Peter and Tony's relationship feels like a tangified representation of inner child healing, but instead of Tony imagining talking with his inner child, he talks to Peter, whom he has watched begin to experience the same trauma he did. As a PTSD survivor, I can imagine the desperation.
15:30 I think another thing that affects Tony so much is the fact that he physically went into space and faced aliens from another dimension. His brain would be scrambled just trying to process that. We hear him say as much in Age of Ultron. How incredibly insane such a thing is, would completely alter how a person percieves their reality, in a way that psychologically, we have no real way of quantifying, cuz it's never actually happened.
Last year, I took an Abnormal Psychology class and one of our assignments was to write a paper diagnosing two fiction characters from either movies or TV. I chose to do Tony Stark from the MCU and I diagnosed him with PTSD. It was one of my favorite papers to write.
could you link that paper? i'd love to read it
@@apparentlyasun Same here! 🙏
We did this too but I chose Ann Hathaways Catwoman. I can't remember what I diagnosed her with though lol.
Yes please!
I had same assignment but I chose to do it about Batman lol
The usage of the ‘Get Help’ scene 😭👏🏻
That is often how my anxiety attacks work, although that’s not PTSD-related. I experience negative thought spirals: a thought like “I’m not ready for this” going to “I suck” to “everyone would be happier without me”. If someone successfully interrupts that spiral, then I can start thinking productively about the problem. It doesn’t exactly “solve” the problem, my mind can do that on it’s own once it stops self-sabotaging. All it does is distract me long enough to make productive thoughts (along the lines of “how can I prepare for this?”) possible. That’s kinda how I read that scene. The kid didn’t “cure” Tony, he just interrupted Tony’s spiral of negative thoughts. Reminding him that he’s an engineer just served to take Tony’s mind off the failure of his suit plan, long enough so that his mind could supply him with an idea for how to fix the problem at hand. He has enough adrenaline in his system that he can focus on the task at hand. Now when the adrenaline wears off... but Pepper is safe and that’s what matters.
Also, he knows he's good at being an engineer, it's literally a safe space for him. That's why I tend to watch my "safe space"-movies when my anxiety hits.
The negative thought spiral you described sounds very familiar to me. One moment I can be totally fine, then I do one thing wrong, or just a chain of small wrongs and my mind spirals exactly like you described. Once I realize what’s happening, distraction (preferably doing something that requires total focus) is the only way to stop this train of dark thoughts. Doesn’t work every time, but it’s the only thing that works. At least that’s my experience.
@@LadyCupcake01 I have that, too! A downward spiral of horrible thoughts and their accompanying horrible feelings. I usually can't distract myself, I just sob until I'm done and do my best to get through the rest of the day 😬
I have anxiety attacks and I can easily descent into a downward spiral of negativity. When that happens, I can't do anything to snap out of it. Though, I never tried "grounding" so I am going to try it out, see how that improves my anxiety.
Agreed. One of my friend’s interrupted my negative spiraling while I was going through a full blown panic attack once not so long ago and it pulled me out it and I calmed down with thirty seconds. It was really quite amazing.
It turned out I could handle the situation all along 🙂
I would disagree with Tony’s lightbulb moment “fixing” his attack. I have had these situations where I am in a full blown panic mode, usually triggered by helplessness in the same way tony feels helpless without his suit. He can’t force the suit to charge so he feels under pressure without a play, until the kid points out he’s not entirely helpless. He takes a few moments to process while ignoring whatever else is being said, and refocuses his thoughts to solving the problem. His (and my) adrenaline is still flowing and his heart rate is still elevated, but it’s come down from even 20 seconds ago. At least for me, panic attacks don’t stop like a brake pedal, they recede back to baseline anxiety like taking your foot off the gas.
I was watching just fine, then he said "weather you've been through emotional abuse, Physical abuse" and in an instant I started tearing up. My ex gf became physically violent during the worst argument we'd ever had, it was only one time, it didn't physically hurt much, but every once in a while I remember the shear emotional stress I felt in that moment, and I will sob for about a minute before bottling it back up. What gets me most is the shame I feel about crying about something that happened over a year ago...
I'm sorry that you had to go through that. Don't feel shame about your feelings. A year ago is not that long!
Emotional scar hurts more since it can last for very long time, even to lifetime. Even if you forgive the person who hurted you, the act still lingering and haunting you everytime. And I really resonate with that
I'm sorry, I hope you're doing better
I'd love for you to touch on Thor's depression in Endgame. I feel like even the movie makes light of it and I think I speak for a lot of people when I say we'd love to see you two cover it! Combining therapy with cinema is such an intriguing concept and you guys would do it justice!
I don’t think the movie make light of Thor’s depression, I think we do. The first time I watched that movie I laughed at Thor, because it was so unexpected, but the second time I was prepared for it and I found Thor really touching in all his fake bravado.
They could have done it better than "He gets fat and plays Fortnite."
@@Xehanort10 when I went through depression 15 years ago I gained 45 pounds and played DotA all day. I guess I could have done my depression better.
@@stratogott8134 I doubt yours was treated as some hilarious joke the way the film treated Thor's.
@@Xehanort10 Is it? Is it though? The other avengers' lack of empathy is a flaw on them, not on Thor. And on you if you still think "bro Thor" is a joke, even now in hindsight.
I think personally from suffering from PTSD & growing up with having numerous panic/anxiety attacks a week, one of things that hit me from that scene with the kid talking to Tony over the phone, is that the kid unintentionally was guiding him in “grounding”. “Grounding” is a technique that’s used to help a person during an attack, by attaching themselves to a truth or something stable, whether that be physically (like holding onto a stone or feeling the textures of the carpet) or mentally (grasping onto a truth or repeating a mantra). And I think that both forms of “grounding” is what the kid was implying; first telling Tony, “you’re a mechanic, build something” is a truth. Tony knows that building things is something he’s good at, something he’s familiar with & this makes him feel in control & safe. The second, is that being a mechanic requires you to work with your hands, get dirty, do physically hard things, & work your body. There’s no better physical grounding tool than that! Maybe with that combo is what kinda “snapped” Tony out of his PTSD but I agree with them, in that no one “snaps” out of an anxiety or panic attack. It usually takes me a good day & a half to fully recover from an anxiety attack & about 40 mins to recover from a panic attack. And even then I can relapse & have another one. But grounding has been so helpful to me & I encourage anyone else who struggles with panic & anxiety attacks to find what grounding method works for you!
Comments like this are why I love this channel. I have anxiety but never experienced PTSD. Thanks for sharing, I think "grounding" might help me as well
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe "Psychological trauma is damage to a person's mind as a result of one or more events that cause overwhelming amounts of stress that exceed the person's ability to cope or integrate the emotions involved, eventually leading to serious, long-term negative consequences."
-- it's not 'exclusive' to military or law enforcement (mental/physical abuse, childhood trauma, violence, heavy bullying etc.) -- it can happen to anyone, many men probably tend to talk less about it or don't seek the help of s.o. who can diagnose it.
Also, don't ask what s.o.'s PTSD is from, it's a very private matter! The worst you can do is tell them they don't have it because they weren't in the military or sth.
You know there was a fan theory that Peter Parker was the only person able to feel what happened to him during the snap because of his Spidey sense. That just makes it 10x worse because he’s looking at the dad he has always wanted and saying I need your help, and Tony can’t do anything to save him.
It was just an ad lib.
@@richierich7229 And it works narratively.
Agh, that scene is horrible. Not just Peter's blip, but Tony's reaction. He just sits there, eyes closed and rocks himself back and forth. So vulnerable.
Damn damn damn
Goddamn!😥
They mention this in the video after this and it’s even more touching the way they say iy
RDJ really did such an amazing job at portraying PTSD and the panic attacks following. I personally have some issues with that because of a brother and my family keeps mentioning him even though I always beg them not to and it immediately makes me break down, just like Tony. Suddenly it just becomes so difficult to do simple things like breathing and thinking straight, everything in your head is just filled with painful memories.
Some people may have laughed at his portrayal but as someone diagnosed with PTSD I just felt for him. I wanted to hug him.
SAME!!!!
I got weird looks from people who didn’t know about my PTSD (they were joking about IVs and then I suddenly got anxious and they wondered why. I just said something along the lines of “I have bad memories of stuff like that” and they seemed to understand a lil, but that was still embarrassing.)
To a degree, I feel his earlier personalities were reflections of the overall PTSD. The Narcissism, the Elitism, they were all coping methods developed to get through a life of trauma that started with losing his parents and never really having a chance to process that loss.
Yes! And even before their deaths, the fact that his dad never seemed to have any time for or emotional investment in him at all, that will mess a kid up. Add to that a well above average intelligence and unlimited wealth… voila.
What I hate about PTSD and post trauma responses is the triggers can be so random and often unexpected. My third, and last miscarriage was the most traumatic and of course, baby announcements, baby clothes, and baby associated things were major triggers. But I didn't expect raspberries to be a trigger. It took quite a while until we figured that one out. Baby had been the size of a raspberry when my husband had tossed a wild raspberry to me on a nature walk we went on. I failed to catch the raspberry and I can vividly remember the juice splattered on the rocks and a weird feeling of dread at that. I still don't like raspberries much, but I can look at them and walk past them in a grocery store now without feeling nausea or a cold sweat or breathing too quickly.
Hey, one of my triggers is spoons, you know, that utensil you eat with? Sometimes I know why (I know why in the case of spoons and red polo shirts and the phrase “it is what it is”) and sometimes I don’t (in the case of driving anywhere except the tiny town I’ve lived in for ten+ years, like, what’s up with that? You’d think it’d be the other way around, right, since most of my trauma happened here? Whatever I guess). It’s just what your brain focuses on in those memories and sometimes it’s super frustrating bc it’s something really common and you can’t avoid it.
What I’m trying to say is, I understand what you’re saying and I want to validate you bc I know that it sucks
@@graylewis7551 Thanks for sharing your story.
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe After the birth of my first living child I had postpartum depression. After my third miscarriage it was different. My doctor informed me that I just had regular old depression now. I also suffered from a missed miscarriage for the last one which meant that baby died at 9 weeks but I didn't find out until 12 weeks. The process wasn't finished until almost a month later. With my other losses, it was around the 6 week mark, (basically a few days after the positive test), so I thought that at nearly 12 weeks I was "safe". That came crumbling down after I found our baby has died and we hadn't known until we couldn't find a heartbeat.
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe My first two miscarriages weren't as bad as the last one where I thought the risk was over. The fact that I thought we were no longer at risk and that it took a very long time and many medical appointments was what made it a bad traumatic experience.
@@graylewis7551 ptsd is not only snaped when there a tick but also when something unexpected happens qnd you have no idea how to respond to it
Tony Stark’s character isn’t a narcissist-he is behaving narcissistically. People with NPD do not feel remorse for their behaviour, nor do they change to become genuinely altruistic.
I love the Cinema Therapy guys but calling Tony NPD ignores too much of his backstory and deeper moments. I feel like if you have to say “unlike most narcissists, Tony does …” that many times, he’s not a narcissist in a clinical sense.
Not to mention, all of my psychology studies in school made a massive point of not diagnosing a disorder when there can be alternative motivations which with Tony, there absolutely is when you factor in his father, his upbringing, his lifestyle, etc.
@@MothmanInHisChibiEra I agree! Within the first five minutes of Iron Man, we see him fail to show up for an award ceremony celebrating his accomplishments. Surely a narcissist would enjoy something like that but Tony clearly doesn't. He only feels bad about missing it when he learns Rhodey, his best friend, was gonna give it to him. I think he's always held a deep feeling of self-loathing due to his childhood and how his father treated him, and uses this mask of ego and narcissism to cover it.
I felt bad disagreeing with an actual therapist, but I was like "Isn't part of the point of a narcissist that they have no thoughts or feelings that would allow change?"
@@mage1439 It's totally fine to disagree with someone! Therapists themselves disagree with each other all the time. It's also worth noting that they probably haven't watched the Iron Man movies a million times like myself and others have. They're just looking at clips here.
that's a bit ableist buddy. They lack empathy not remorse
There's something I think you guys missed at about 5:50. Tony looked at his reflection in the glass, flashed anger and disgust, then shot his own reflection, not just once but three times.
The scene in Homecoming where he tells him about if he's "nothing without this suit then you shouldn't have it" is one of my FAVORITE scenes. And when Peter dusts in Infinity War 😭😭😭
He really learned a lot from Iron Man 3 ✧◝(⁰▿⁰)◜✧ now let me just cry in the toilet.
I knoww. It's so good. I really agree with them saying that iron man 3 really built it up for homecoming. Because yeah he really did learn a lot and he wants to teach peter. It's one of the best scenes.
I just love that scene in Avengers with Tony and Steve. Both their dialogue foreshadows what is to come for them both AND they prove each other wrong. “You’re not the one to make the sacrifice play.” And “everything special about you came out of a bottle.” Tony makes the ultimate sacrifice in Endgame and Steve is able to wield Mjölnir. So good!!!!
@Joshua Kelly lifting the hammer has nothing to do with physical strength! You could be the strongest person ever and still not be worthy, just like Thor wasn’t worthy for a time. That’s the whole point; all the things that make Steve worthy are things that he already had before the serum! Steve isn’t only special because of the serum. He got picked because of the traits he already had. Steve was “not a perfect soldier, but a good man.”
@Joshua Kelly I suspect he would. Even in weakling mode.
@Joshua Kelly Did you watch Thor 1? You should know how the hammer works at this point.
@Joshua Kelly i just wanna say, i understood what you meant, and i think that Steve would've struggled.
Even with the enchantment, the hammer is described to have weight. Vision himself said the weight of the hammer is "terribly well balanced". Judging by the size of the hammer, it's definitely heavier than a regular hammer you'd use for a nail.
I'd definitely think he'd struggle to swing that thing around with his old body that's basically just walking bones.
I agree that the foreshadowing is awesome. That scene was a bit stinging to watch knowing what happens next when I rewatched it.
Please talk about Thor and his experience with depression, it is interesting how they treated Tony Stark as compared to Thor's depression to make many jokes. I would like to hear your opinion on how they portrayed it.
The man's home was destroyed by his half sister and loads of Asgardians were killed, Thanos killed his adopted brother and what probably hit Thor hardest was the fact that if he'd just killed Thanos instead of trying to make him suffer first the snap wouldn't have happened. But instead of treating how all that affected him seriously it was "Ha ha he's fat and plays Fortnite."
Maybe Marvel will touch it in upcoming movies, cause Tony's case also spread on multiple movies. They could make Thor's mental health steadily getting better or even getting worse.
@@Xehanort10 yeah it all started affecting him with his mom's death
@@Xehanort10 not everyone lays down in bed in a dark room crying. It’s common to just let loose, eating, drinking, and sitting on the couch playing games when depressed.
@@ketomine. But it felt like Endgame was mocking what happened to him and just using him as an ad for shitty Fortnite.
When Tony had a panic attack, I felt him. I had one in August and it felt the same. I wanted to leave, but I couldn’t. I felt weak, adrenaline pumping for hours and couldn’t be myself for days.
I feel you, I had a similar experience. My last panic attack wasn’t that bad, but gosh I remember the last one I had that was that bad, I was a shaking shell for days. I couldn’t go to work, I could barely eat, I just kind of had to be still and recover.
Tony having panic attacks is so important to me because I get them ALL THE TIME. And knowing that one of my all time favorite SUPER HEROES also deals with them is really uplifting.
20:36 this scene specifically just- the stumbling over words and the stuttering, having to actually stop the car, a small thing having such a large and sudden impact, shaking of the hand, the breathing- it’s all just so validating
Not to mention the “oh god, not again.” This statement- anyone who deals with this kind of thing can absolutely relate. It’s when you start to see that pattern, when you first start to notice that “hey, that ‘freak out’ wasn’t a one time thing, it keeps happening and it sucks.” That’s absolutely crushing. You feel hopeless
The use of the "get help" segment was pure editing genius.
I hope they look at Zuko in Avatar. I feel like everytime I rewatch ATLA I become more and more impressed with his character arc. With misplaced desires (like regaining his honor was about being accepted by his father), to learning about the world from different perspectives (as a prince then an outlaw), to the cathartic confrontation with his father and deciding not to seize power. I just feel like the whole show has a lot going on but especially with Zuko.
i hope you guys will react to “ coraline “ someday
YES please may they see this!
YEESSS! I would thoroughly enjoy that!
That'd be great!
Yesssss. That movie is literally my taste in EVERYTHING. Creepy is now my middle name.
The way tony portrays anxiety and panic is very much like how I act. More controlled but only when others witness it and that is so relatable. Needing to take off layers, stick your face in snow, walk, tell everyone to shut up, I just loved and appreciated how well he showed it.
I've had my fair share of trauma in my past, and weirdly the MCU's handling of Tony's trauma and PTSD is some of the best I've seen in a film. Like, when he has panic/anixety attacks (and yes they're different), I don't just empathise, I can feel them with him. The avoidance tactics, the poor coping mechanisms...
I remember coming out of the cinema and my parents didn't like Iron Man 3 because it wasn't the "superhero movie" they expected. But I loved it because it was *the* most relatable I'd seen the MCU be. And it was handled amazingly well.
"you're laughing even as you're hearts kinda breaking for him" that do be tony stark
I think that maybe Tony doesn't actually snap out of the panic attack so much as suppress it. As someone who experiences panic attacks a lot, while it rarely happens, I can suppress the panic attack if someone shouts at me or until I'm in a more safe place. It very rarely happens because suppressing it is worse, but it does happen. So I don't think that Tony "snaps out" of the panic attack; I think he suppressed it
In the words of Chrysostom, “feel guilty when you sin, not when you repent.”
I was having an attack after a difficult conversation with my family. I was in a ward to be helped for those issues. After about 1.5 minutes of panicked SI, my care giver just casually asked “did you know people’s shoes stay where they where hit when they get run over by a car?” And it was the exact right morbid wtf kind of question that I was able to stop and start seeing the real world around me again.
That’s why I think it’s so important to have people around you who know that one thing your brain will hook on to if you deal with a mental illness like us.
Exactly, though I don’t think that question would’ve helped me 😂 too morbid for my taste 😆 but I’ll admit it is interesting!
I might start telling people to have me name an episode of the Goldbergs from a random season off hand or something. That usually gets me to think. 😆
I believe Tony's anxiety so thoroughly because I have experienced someone say just the right thing to snap me out of it almost instantly. And because of that I learned to either think back to those words or use a mantra I know works. RDJ and his portrayal of Iron Man and the way his character and personal journey have parallels are why he will always be one of the greatest of all time.
I will never forget "And I.... Am Iron Man."
"[trauma occurs] when you think your world is safe. . . but it's not." - Jonathan Decker
I loved this. It captures perfectly the essence of PTSD. With reference to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, safety is near the foundation. So, I think as far as therapists go, Decker is brilliant.
But safety is fake and false. No one is safe ever. You just need to accept it and move on.
I got diagnosed with PTSD and General Depression a few years ago due to growing up in an abusive household. (don't worry, i'm in a much better place now)
Nothing made Tony feel more real than Iron Man 3. I know people have problems with the movie, but seeing someone like Iron Man experience what you're so familiar with and seeing it portrayed so well gave me hope for reducing the stigma of mental health discussions.
This channel alone is such a great force for mental health conversations, and I'm so, so glad you guys are addressing Tony's issues. Thank you for putting these videos out
"Nothing made Tony feel more real than Iron Man 3."
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe none of your business?
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe gaslighting, emotional and physical abuse, parental abuse, and later down the line, sexual abuse (unrelated)
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe I'm sorry to hear that, but I don't like to go into detail to people I don't know.
@Leide Keine Dummköpfe Sir, I would invite you to deal with these issues with a therapist. I understand that projection is a defense mechanism, but it's not my job to make you feel better about yourself. Please leave me alone.
Haven't watched the second part yet so you might have covered this there, BUT....
One key aspect I think you've overlooked is that, in Iron Man 3, Tony is obsessively dependent on the suit. It's his 'safe space', which he retreats to time and again as a crutch - some might argue it's a coping mechanism but, overall, his reliance upon the suit does more harm than good. Being in control of the situation is Tony's Zen and he feels cut adrift without it. When he needs the suit and, despite his best efforts, it's not recharging, he feels utterly helpless - particularly when you're someone like Tony Stark who can't imagine a world where he lacks control.
"Then why don't you build something?"
With those innocent words, everything comes into perspective. Tony builds things - he designed and built countless weapons; he designed and built both the original miniature arc reactor and the Mark I Iron Man suit in a cave; he designed and built dozens of suits of power armor with differing strengths. Since the end of the first movie, "I am Iron Man" has been his mantra but he suddenly comes to realize those words were a lie.
He's NOT Iron Man - he's Tony Stark, the greatest engineering savant on the planet. He doesn't need the suit to invent things; he doesn't need the suit to overcome obstacles; he doesn't need the suit in order to be a whole person. He's NOT helpless and he had control all along - he just needed to think sideways a moment in order to realize it.
Good analyzing 😁. It's exactly what I think and I think it also really builds up the conversation in homecoming when he says " if your nothing without this suit then you shouldn't have it ". It's a awesome conversation.
Also when Tony met Thor he was greeted with a power that he had never known. Thor represented the unknown cosmos.
Hulk represented the uncontrollable, meaning that Tony would have to worry about Hulk getting lost in a blind rage being unable to tell friend from foe.
Black Widow and Hawkeye were assassins meaning that they could kill Tony if he let his guard down around them too often, which could fuel his anxiety.
Captain America was a threat to Tony's ego. Being around Steve made Tony feel smaller in comparison, that no matter what Tony did it would always look insignificant to Steve Rodgers accomplishment in the court of public option. Steve is the man Tony wants to be but he feels like he can't be.
Tony respected by also feared the Avengers since he was the weakest member without his suit.
im currently suffering from PTSD. Its a total nightmare, i hate it every day. This episode was cathartic, seeing how well it was portrayed was amazing! Thanks for covering it
I love the scene where tony is watching the news and getting more worked up. To me this is the pivotal scene where he finally decides to be a hero. building the suit, testing, etc was all just prep work and that slow build up to using the repulser to shatter the glass....OMG CHILLS. because he goes from anger, to basically questioning himself one last time to commitment and the next part is him suiting up and just pure focus. LOVE IT
I'm so excited about this! Tony is one of the most beloved characters and definitely my favourite. What RDJ did with him and his emotional growth is phenomenal. Can't wait for this!
I love how his narcissism and sarcasm was just a coping mechanism to stop people from getting close to him. 🥺
Exactly. It's not true narcissism but a carefully built protective wall.
Imagine being that kid
You run into Tony Stark, help him through some stuff, get rewarded with material goods and a scholarship and you probably think that's it
Then the snap happens, world goes crazy, things work out, you find out Tony Stark is now dead, and you were a big enough help in his life that you get the honor of being there at his funeral
That seems like a great set up for a next generation of a tech-based superhero
"that kid" ... His name is Harley Keener. Seriously people.
@@WraithReaper09 thanks kid
Honestly the way he responds to the vision Wanda gave him was actually kind of a great of showing that he isn't as over his PTSD as he appeared to be at the end of Iron Man 3. He had things to distract and focus him so he could move past it at least for the moment, but he was still supressing those feelings and Ultron really showed that just because someone seems ok and is doing productive things that they can still be struggling even if they are not aware of it.
Very true.
Recently, I was diagnosed with PTSD and watched this movie again yesterday.
When this scene started, I felt awful. Nightmares, traumatic memories and even a mention of the event (or anything that brings it to mind) serve as mental triggers for panic attacks for people like us. Tony was brave in NY when he fought Loki and Chitauris, but it later cost him dearly, his mental health. The same thing happened to me in my life.
I’m so excited for this! I’m obsessed with Tony Stark, his growth as a character is phenomenal. Can’t wait to watch!!
Ah man, this is going to be good. It is crazy that I was just thinking about how I'd love to see the break down of the PTSD of the Hunger Games movies and the performances of Jennifer Lawrence and Josh Hutcherson of Katniss and Peeta throughout the three movies and their development. Probably my favourite cinematic evolution of characters amidst such interesting movies. (It's also really cool for the different pyschological behaviour of dystopian society in many different ways; dictators, dillusions, war, loss/grief, propaganda, torture) 🤞Maybe next time.
I think it's pretty awesome that more and more movies/books deal with PTSD and not just ignore the trauma the characters went through!
I second this request so hard.
This is why I love Iron Man 3 so much, and oh boy, is the next episode going to break me
@18:38 "He is sitting there talking to a kid. There is no safer place to be." Except that it is a dead-end street. No very subtle.
As somone with (almost daily) panic attacks, spawned from the littlest most insignificant things, the “not again” line is so prominent. That switch from compleatly ok and content to ‘I can’t breath’ ‘I’m going to die’ is so wonderfully portrayed. You don’t expect a film like this so hold such power and have such accurate representation. Though it has its faults, it’s recognision of the struggle is important in itself. And yes, I have had moments where somthing so simple and quick has removed me from this state. Though, as said, it’s not common but it does happen and can be life saving when you feel like your world is falling apart.
Cannot stop coming back to these videos, keep up the great work guys!
When Tony's on the border of a panic attack but keeps the snark it fits, it seems like trying to protect himself to me. Using the snark as a sort of defense mechanism
The way he said “Have you met me? Im Tony Stark, Im great” actually made me picture Nathan Fillion as Malcom Reynolds lol
When I took Jono to see Serenity (forever cementing our friendship) we walked out of the theater and he just looked at me and said “You’re Mal!”
I felt better about myself in that moment than just about any other time in my life.
@@CinemaTherapyShow I can definitely see it 😆 and there is no greater compliment you can give a man, other than calling him Aragorn of course lol
I really love Tonys development as a character. It makes him one of my favorite superheroes~ Also him being a father-figure to Peter is my favorite relationship in the MCU!
I watched this movie when it came out. It was freshman year of highschool and I just started in a new state and was super nervous.. this ironically was around the time in my life I started to experience anxiety/panic attacks. I remember watching Tony go through this stuff and it made me feel so much more calm and ready to deal with my own issues.
Later on, during that same movie in class, I stood up and physically got in-between two other students that were about to fight each other, and talked them down and convinced them to just watch the movie... despite my own issues with anxiety, this movie and seeing how he handled it gave me confidence to set my stuff aside and do the right thing.
I like to think this movie got me through a large part of that year.
What always pulled me out of my anxiety/PTSD attacks was covering up completely in a light blanket like a ghost, and listening to a favorite uplifting song. It didn't make me completely calm, but it did work very quickly and from an outsider perspective I probably looked completely calm after even if internally I didn't. So yeah, the 'right thing' can outwardly snap you out of it sometimes.
21:57 Seeing Thanos's ship after he went into the wormhole also contributed to Tony's PTSD as well.
I liked the comment about how Tony isn't like most narcissists. Because it's important to remember he's fiction & most people like him won't change & you can't fix them.
I remember watching this movie having gone through some trauma and having extream daily panic attack's. I appreciated the fact that Tony's pain, vulnerability fear is not romanticized but portrayed realistically. It was strangely cathartic to see a hero go through the same struggle as I did. Luckily I got help and guidance from a great therapist. Thx guys for another great video. I enjoy them tremendously and would advise to see the channel 'academy of ideas'.
If you want to cover PTSD more, I recommend that you analyze the character of John Rambo. If there were ever a character driven by traumatic experiences, it was him.
"You're not the guy to make the sacrifice play"
"Everything special about you came out of a bottle"
The way endgame calls back to these 2 lines is just beautiful.
The purposely uploaded this on the same day as the final episode of Falcon and Winter Soldier and I'm here for it.
I really liked the cinematography of Stark staring at his reflection in the window before he 'kills' / blasts his old self image and commits to becoming Iron Man; so visual and in character for him.
I really grateful to you both, that you are doing this episode today. I had a PTSD nightmare overnight and its really thrown me today. I hope I can join the premiere but if not I look forward to watching. Guidance would be very useful.
I hope you are better now 💜
I always LOVED the PTSD story line of Iron Man 3 - it's the reason that it's my second-favourite Iron Man film - and I thought RDJ did an incredible job portraying his struggling character.
To be fair Tony ptsd isn't just gone after the 3rd movie, he learned to move on he do the operation to lift the metal on his chest but his ptsd is not completely gone, I think when pepper said "you can rest now" at the end signaling that he still has a ptsd even in endgame.
Yes! 😄 Thank you @cinematherapy for this video on Ironman! After Endgame, it looks like I need some therapy. 😂😭From being self-centered and arrogant to being selfless and saving the universe is the greatest character development that I've seen.
Two points I'd like to make:
1) if you think about anxiety remedies, we're all told to breathe into a paper bag, and the kid in Iron Man 3 advises Tony to do so during his anxiety attacks. When we see Tony throw the reactor into the sea from atop the cliff, he takes it out of a paper bag. His anxiety was the suit all along because he'd lost Tony inside it.
And 2) I love your intro, going from 'I love cinema' to 'I need therapy' as a way of tipping your hat to one another is a sweet sentiment, but moreso, I love that it normalises needing therapy. Every time I hear you say 'I need therapy' it reminds me to get some and I feel better about that need.
Thankyou, you're a fantastic pair and this is a wonderful channel. I love you guys
YESS. I CAN'T WAIT. I've always wondered if Tony had therapy after what he went through
Tony is that type of person who clearly needs therapy but keeps avoiding it arguing that he definitely doesn’t need it because he’s fine.
So I don’t think so
Well ... he talked to Banner ... ^^'
Healthy guilt is directed at a behavior. Unhealthy guilt is directed at the self.
That's so simple and so profound. Thank you for this.
I just want to say, Tony’s anxiety-attacks really resonated with me and felt extremely realistic. Even the part (around 21:45) where he comes out of an anxiety-attack immediately just because the kid talks him through the logic of the situation. As you guys pointed out in the video, it might not be common for people to be brought out of anxiety-attacks this way, but it is often how _my_ anxiety-attacks work. I am a very logical person. When I have a problem (or the fear that I _will_ have a problem sometime in the future) I want the answer, the solution. I don’t just want to be soothed emotionally, I want to be mentally prepared to actually _fix_ whatever the problem is, and when I’m not, that’s often when I start to feel helpless and panic sets in. Sometimes what it takes to bring me out is someone with a different perspective talking me down with reason and offering a logical solution to what my illogical panic convinced me was a hopeless, insurmountable problem.