5 Reasons Why You Will NEVER Become A Developer
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- Опубликовано: 28 май 2024
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You often hear about how so many aspiring developers struggle to break into the industry. I invited on a CEO of a coding bootcamp to share his top 5 reasons why most people don't become developers. It's brutally honest, but more importantly, we talk through a ton of advice on how to avoid these pitfalls. This one is really honest, so be ready.
Topics:
0:00 - Intro
1:22 - Getting into coding for the wrong reasons
14:25 - Not finding the support you need
30:23 - Not being able to handle the negatives of being a developer
35:13 - Getting trapped in tutorial hell
46:11 - Being too picky with what you're willing to accept for your first position
1:05:21 - Outro
Ludo Fourrage (guest):
Linkedin - / ludovicfourrage
Website - www.nucamp.co
One thing I just don't agree with is the "Don't do it for the money." There's people out there working stressful minimum wage jobs that they hate (like me) and I would rather take the money and deal with the "Not liking the job". When you're trying to get your life together and there's limited options you gotta do what ya gotta do.
There are a couple of things to consider there.
1. There are WAY easier careers to get into than software engineering that will bump your pay up above minimum wage. I think more people should consider other careers before software engineering if their goal is to simply get into a more comfortable financial situation.
2. You're more than welcome to just do it for the money. The main message I always try to deliver around that is that you most likely won't become a software engineer if that remains your primary driver throughout your coding journey. You need to really discover a more rewarding and substantial motivation than that to have a much higher chance at finally getting that first position.
I think the 2nd one is a pretty interesting topic with some depth to it. Feel free to bring it up during our weekly live Q&A each Friday. I'm happy to dive deeper into the topic.
I bit my tongue a bit right after saying that - it's not don't do it for the money (that's usually the #1 reason), it's don't do it JUST for the money, and if money is the only motivation it may not be enough motivation to make it. It wasn't very smart of me to start with that though- so fair feedback @Dandy
@DonTheDeveloper lawyer, doctor, hedge fund manager? Computer programming gave lots of people a chance to make life changing money.
I have been doing it for over 20 years. Do i enjoy it? Isnt hard. The thing that makes it bad is management. Not the coding.
@@brucesmith3740 I don't know what kind of developer you are but I would not say for the average person it isn't hard...if you have above average intelligence etc. it may not be that hard but you definitely have to work at it...Also, it is mostly a boys club...yes women can do it ( I have as a woman ) but it is a drag....
I think it is a career with a lot of pressure.
I think the days where it was easy to get into are definitely over...
you , like a lot of other people , do not understand what coding is and how it is not just another job .
yes, if you have nothing else you will be able to work washing dishes and picking up trash for a minimum wage, and keep doing it even if they hate it, but only because these are jobs that your can do mindlessly , kind of in "zombie mode". Coding is not like that. It will require from you a level of effort, concentration, study, dedication that you will find IMPOSSIBLE to produce if you do not have a genuine interest for it.
Great content. Deciding which dev area to focus is quite tricky in the early days. The best way to is build small personal projects and see what interests you the most.
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Great content, thanks for bringing on Ludo! I'm starting the 11 month software engineering bootcamp path at Nucamp next week, beginning with the 4 week intro class. Trying to prepare on my own beforehand going thru Codeacademy courses. Excited, nervous, but looking forward to this next phase in my life.
I love the "Don't do it for the money." argument because there is no way in hell you are going to become a software developer making money if you hate software development.
Yeah, it's too long and tough of a journey if you don't really enjoy it.
@@JD-vj4go That says more about developers that choose to stay at a position that doesn't make them happy or fulfilled. That does happen. The original point that was brought up was focused on breaking into the industry though. I think the point you're making is an entirely different discussion.
@@JD-vj4go I see where you're coming from. In fact, this very reason is why I've (mostly) stopped suggesting that developers should be "passionate" about coding. It's an ideal state, but it isn't necessarily needed. Once someone finally gets that first position, it can be helpful to have that conversation with them to just make sure they set healthy expectations. I ALSO think some developers COULD be happier with their career, but unfortunately many stay at a job that they're not happy at, for way too long. If you don't love what you do, that's ok, but it's certainly setting the bar low for yourself. Sometimes that means coding isn't what's truly fulfilling for you as a career.
I'm not talking about continuing to do a job for money even though you hate it. I'm talking about learning to become a software dev if you don't like software dev
You were right Don! Most of my questions regarding the web dev industry were answered in this video! Loads of great introspection and helpful tips! I really found the point about “if you don’t like the process of figuring problems out…that isn’t a good sign.”
Thanks for a great interview video!!
Awesome! I'm glad you found it so helpful.
Loving the content, Don. Will be joining nucamp next month, and it was a pleasant surprise to hear honest opinions from both of you!
Good luck with the program!
I love Ludo and this was a great podcast, Don. I would add that it is important not to do crappy work, get a bad reputation or--most importantly--make enemies. I disagree about settling for a QA position as those are notoriously hard to break of.
Don's advice for transitioning from QA to an eventual software engineering role is legit.
I think it's incredibly important to do crappy work (to increase the quality of work that you produce). Keep in mind, that's not saying to put low effort into your portfolio projects, but I've seen way too many aspiring developers overwhelm themselves by setting their expectations too high for their initial projects. Being ok with low-quality projects initially is a huge key to overcoming perfectionism.
@@DonTheDeveloper Understood. Thank you, Don.
I'm Graduating from a full-stack web development boot camp in a 1.5 months
Pretty excited for the future
That's awesome Justin. You're so close!
Any job luck ?
The timing couldnt have been more perfect! I'm starting nucamp next Monday! You rock Don and Ludo!
Good luck!
You Go! ;)
I just started my path of learning Web Development this past Weekend. Signed up for Treehouses Front End Web Dev track and am really enjoying it. I've generally always been interested in Computer Science, as I've grew up always interested in new technology and the way things work being the scenes. As well as jailbreaking/modding various devices. Just felt like I needed a break from schooling the past few years. Now I'm feeling great and am excited to continue learning. Great podcast 👍🏾
What made you feel like you needed a break from schooling?
@@DonTheDeveloper unfortunately during my first year of college (right out of HS) I chose something that I didn't actually care about out of pressure (pharmacy). Still did well in it, but did not want to continue. So I quit and just went into the work force, saving my money. Spent a long time thinking about what I wanted myself to do. Even though web dev/game dev has been in the back of my mind the whole time. Now I'm feeling rejuvenated, and ready to learn again. This time about something I do care about.
@@Vezii-DJake Ahh yeah, same here. What I went to college for also wasn't what I really wanted to do. Nice! I'm glad you feel motivated again.
Thank you so much for your information on how to networking it's very useful with me.
Great information! Thank you.
Great to hear from Ludo again. Great back and forth with wonderful insight.
Thanks Brent, it was great to be back on the show with Don.
Great content as always Don, I love the no-nonsense approach that answers the hard questions
I've been practicing programming for almost 9 months now, and I've never, or rather barely, experienced this "excitement" when fixing bugs or solving problems, for me it was more like a confidence boost than anything else that lets me move forward. So I when hear people say that they get kind of excited, I feel indifferent, like I'm supposed to feel this way, and if I'm not, then this profession is not for me. Also, my first motivation to get into programming was actually money, and the idea that it sounds luxurious or something that is valuable that can get me onto the middle-class, but as I progress through my journey, all I wanted was to be good at this. Money is now something that I consider a reward or a luxury that can come from doing great at this profession. So when it comes to drive; money or passion, I think I may be somewhere inbetween, where money can be used to boost my drive to learn and proceed a little bit, but ultimately, it is the satisfaction that I was able to somehow enjoy the struggles and intricacies of the problems I am now overcoming, and that I am proud to be able to move forward again, knowing that I'll retain all the knowledge I gained from my previous challenges. I still have a long way to go, being self-taught can be quite a lonely journey for me, all I have are youtubers like you and chat-gpt by my side to hold my hand against the horror of being lost and confused. I do genuinely hope that I will be able to harvest the fruit of my labour soon.
I hate the "don't do t for the money" argument since alot of people transitioning hate their jobs as is so if I can make more money doing something else, when I already hate my job, I don't see the problem..
I'm going to copy and paste what I said in another reply for this one. There are a couple of things to consider there.
1. There are WAY easier careers to get into than software engineering that will bump your pay up above minimum wage. I think more people should consider other careers before software engineering if their goal is to simply get into a more comfortable financial situation.
2. You're more than welcome to just do it for the money. The main message I always try to deliver around that is that you most likely won't become a software engineer if that remains your primary driver throughout your coding journey. You need to really discover a more rewarding and substantial motivation than that to have a much higher chance at finally getting that first position.
I think the 2nd one is a pretty interesting topic with some depth to it. Feel free to bring it up during our weekly live Q&A each Friday. I'm happy to dive deeper into the topic.
I bit my tongue a bit right after saying that - it's not don't do it for the money (that's usually the #1 reason), it's don't do it JUST for the money, and if money is the only motivation it may not be enough motivation to make it. It wasn't very smart of me to start with that though- so fair feedback @Pain Exotic
As a rural native of New Mexico finding support in my community has been non-existent. I haven’t been able to find anyone willing to mentor me or befriend me. I found one new person to town from Washington working for Microsoft. Well I asked about a mentorship and he said probably would charge $35 and hour. What! I was thinking free. I am looking to make friends and mentors. Meet ups are near impossible the nearest “big” cities is over two hours away. I do not see any meets ups there anyways. Don’t get me started with online accountability partners. What do you guys think?
Amazing video I learned so much!!!
Great conversation
Im struggling making 40k why not struggle making 100K? Give me 100k and I figure out later if I like it or not
It's a chicken and egg type of thing. First comes liking to code, then second making more money from it. Because if you don't like to code you probably won't have the motivation to learn it and practice it enough to get someone interested in hiring you as a developer.
how would you be competent in doing the job without enjoying it? enjoyment leads to curiosity, which motivates you to dive deeper into the subject, which ends up making you a better software developer. only thinking about the end result (money) without enjoying the process will stagnate your progress as a software developer, you won’t get anywhere.. you’ll dread coming into work everyday (assuming you somehow landed a dev role) because you’ll be incompetent.
I'd be happy to just do my own apps and try to use coding in another tech job. Coding afterall , can be a good skillset in itself. How many people really know if being a dev is a great culture fit for them?
A coding bootcamp sounds good now after hearing your comments. Been learning python for 3 yrs now. Im need some structure to learn other thing to build a complete solution.
There are no junior developer positions. This was true 20 years ago as it is today. Company's don't want to take the chance on a newer developers.
Solving problems is very satisfying. Especially when there my software issue not someone else's issue.
Nucamp sounds good as a bootcamp. Other bootcamp prices are to high and there content is to poor.
I'm looking for a job where I can work on electronics and do some coding. Electronics repair is my background.
Don, do you have any content covering SQL? How to get into that specific lane, what employers look for?
I don't think I do. I'll take it as a suggestion though. Thanks.
@ the 13 to 14min mark... yes, there is a great course called Zero To Mastery. You can literally look at Cybersecurity, Web Development, Data Science and Machine Learning, DevOps, Career help... This is literally slept on.
Passion might be hyperbolic (though I don' t think so..) but you have to at least have a strong genuine interest for coding. Otherwise becoming a coder would not be "rough" it will be impossibile. I am amazed at how little most people realise this, while at the same time they would find preposterous to think that someone who has no interest in music can become a musician or someone who has no interest in medicine or curing people and saving lives can become a physician.
And then there is another elephant in the room. Te become a professional programmer you need to have talent and inclination for it. Not everybody is "wired" to be a programmer. I would go as far as saying that only a rather minor percentage of people is, and that is why there is always a shortage of programmers ..
U always bring all questions on the table,
I am QA on automation side, trying to figure out path to get in to developer , just don’t know how
Hi Ume, which languages and frameworks are you using to automate your tests? The most straightforward path would be for you to apply to backend dev jobs in the language you are currently using (assuming it also works for backend).
@@ludovicf Hi Ludovic,
Currently working with appium/ java on mobile automation , also had a background on web automation selenium/ c #.
Currently learning by self MERN, aiming for web development but it seems very hard to get into the job since cv not get picked
N I constantly follow nucamp too, u guys are doing awesome job, planning to get into nucamp fullstack but not sure about career coaching, if they really help me to get into where I want
@@umekar2695 got it. Switching to MERN doesn't allow you to value your past experience in Java and C#, which would make your transition harder imo. If I were you I would continue to focus on the backend and expand your skills in that space: learn SQL, NoSQL, Rest API, containers, devops, AWS etc. Java and C# are top backend choices so you would have an edge there. Make sure to build projects showcasing those skills as well. Hope that helps!
@@ludovicf thank you so much, that clears the cloud for me.
I appreciate you
I only got into coding to become more proficient at content creation. Working with Adobe photoshop ,illustrator, aftereffects Not to mention 3d software like Houdini and blender. There are WAYYYyy fewer job opportunities in art sector than coding. When so you say the market is saturated I'm having a hard time understanding that as a fact?
If you enjoy the process just keep learning and you will get one eventually because you will learn all the things
A free resource that I’ve been enjoying so far as someone with ZERO knowledge of programming/coding/dev is Khan Academy. I’m slowly picking my way through the AP/College Computer Science Principles and the Computer Programing courses. Don, I’m curious if you’ve ever looked at these and what you think about the content?
I haven't reviewed it yet, but there's actually a form link in the description where you can request a review. Go ahead and fill that out.
Thank’s, Don! I did submit a request. I’d love to hear what you think about the content!
So, after getting a bit farther through the Khan Academy content I was just feeling like I needed more than I was getting so I went over to Treehouse and signed up for the free trial. I was able to test out of html and CSS basics (so I clearly got something out of the KA content), but am immediately much happier with their curriculum. I think Khan Academy could be great for hobbyists and children, but someone looking to transition careers can get much more effective curriculum elsewhere. But it is completely free, so that’s something.
Bro looks like Abel Ferreira, the soccer coach of Palmeiras in Brazil
Great content btw!
I personally like this conversation, the problem is how to get a mentorship
There are a lot of things I enjoy, but I don't like doing it as someone's employee.
People in software development really don't have idea how other fields can suck. The principle of learn new things and grow in your career + more compensation is just not happening in many fields. I came from teaching and, man, teaching sucks. Even when IT is its worst, it is way better than teaching.
✦Major reasons why developers aren't getting jobs
00:00
✦To validate software engineering skills, longer courses with problem-solving exercises are recommended.
05:24
✦Building a path of six months is important for self-taught developers
16:05
✦Coding boot camps provide a supportive cohort for learning
20:32
✦Emotional aspect of coding can be challenging
30:14
✦Think of yourself as an entrepreneur building your own project.
35:21
✦Accept a job that pays the bills and gives you comfort
45:14
✦Be careful overselling software engineering positions
50:18
✦Consider building automations in QA to jump into software engineering role.
1:00:28
✦NewCamp offers affordable coding bootcamps
1:05:23
Hey Don, I think I just found you on my feed and so far good content man.
Just a suggestion. Maybe check your mic settings to try to noise cancel heavy breathing. Your mic sounds great but it’s a little sensitive so I hear too much.
Anyways keep up the great work.
Yeah this is an older video. I recently fixed this issue so it should be fixed in upcoming videos.
Constraint is form; form frees creativity.
Thanks
Too many people doing this now and too much A.I.
I got stuck in Q/A for soooooo long.
Yeah, I've heard a lot of similar stories of those that thought QA could be an easy bridge into software engineering.
I hear you- the longer you stay in QA the harder it will be to transition. How long did you stay in QA and how did you "unstuck" yourself? I still believe it could be a great 1st position considering the current competition for junior devs. #1 don't stay there for more than a couple of years if you don't intend to have a career in QA, #2 make sure to make the most of it (write code, use frameworks, automate) #3 evaluate if it could be your niche where you excel and become in-demand.
@@ludovicf Yeah, it was just my own dysfunction, nothing wrong with QA. When I took the job I just needed a job and had zero interest in software. I didn't think of using it as a stepping stone into being a software developer. Hopefully, it will have some value on my resume as I am trying to get a junior dev job now. Thank you for the wonderful discussion and opening my eyes to ways of using my "QA" past as an asset. Much appreciated.
@@LukeAvedon Good luck Luke!
@@ludovicf Thanks!
Let's think of this fictional scenario. The year is 2050 and all minimum wage jobs have been eliminated and are replaced by artificial intelligence/robots etc and the only jobs left are software engineers and data scientists etc to maintain the AI algorithms and robots functionality. What will you do in this situation if these are the only jobs left in the economy and the only way to pay rent and avoid being homeless is to get this job no matter what. Doesn't matter if you are motivated or passionate etc, this is the only way to earn a paycheck and pay your rent!! Will you adapt and survive and learn it and become a developer/scientst etc or just end up homeless..
What exactly is, “QA?”
quality assurance.. they’re software testers
Good question. There, I just QA'd your question by declaring it good. Apply that to software created within a company, except it's way more formal, not based on flip opinions, with test plans, tools like Jira for tracking bugs and feature requests, automation with tools like Jenkins, reviewing official lists of requirements, checking for bugs that were fixed last year not coming back, declaring the software good at some point and releasing it from the testing stage to go on to deployment.
I don't see encouragement for 4 year CS degree. Every employee wants CS grads first.
And there is massive difference in skills. On those bootcamps you learn total sh*t.
The only bootcamp you should attend is one organized by a real IT company with senior devs. And it should be FREE!!!