It was really annoying to send my Jade Warriors into the enemy's flank, and see them use only three dudes to fight while the rest maintained their useless formation.
@@Loj84 because Cathay is a defensive faction and it helps hold the line. You should always have it turned on unless you're flanking, fighting archers, or fighting single entities. With infantry only that last one is gonna happen frequently and depending on the situation you may or may not want it for that. So 90% of the time you want it on
I think I know why this doesn't work in this game when it's so advantageous and powerful in others like Medieval 2. This ability is essentially the spearwall ability that pikes and halberds have in the older, historical titles. But in this game, they don't actually form a proper spear wall, they are simply trying to maintain line ranks and nothing more. The reason spear walls were so powerful in other Total Wars is because the unit has a multi-tiered brace. The front line crouches and braces against the ground, the second line has spears held at midevel, the third held up high. This means that multiple entities from multiple lines can attack at once, so that even if a unit in the formation does die and the game tries to account for it and have them reform, so many are attacking at one time that having a few not doing so to move up is a non-issue. That's why pikes and halberds in a braced spearwall formation were so powerful and hard to break through unless you could flank them. So if the halberds and spears formed a proper spear wall in this game with this ability, it would probably work just fine. But because of the dumbing down and making units so frail to speed up battles, it would probably be immensely overpowered, hence why it doesn't work like that but, also, hence why the ability is a detriment.
Because spearmen in warhammer don't actually have extra reach, unlike pikemen in other titles. So essentially, it is like giving the spearwall formation to a group of swordsmen, no matter the unit.
@@verdantagent This is probably the real reason why it sucks. No reach weapons, and no real charge reflection like in 3K or Rome 2 means the optimal strategy is always to maximize number of entities engaged for max damage. It feels like dumbing down the combat to just throwing a bunch of stats at each other...
@@LazyIcarus Yes, that has been Warhammer since the first game. People have been okay with that, so that's what we've gotten for all three and what CA has tried to do in more recent historical and Saga titles.
In shogun 2, it made your formation more dense. This led to other formations being outnumbered at the individual level. I don't know if tiered spears were a thing, but they did have tiered muskets for rapid fire.
No it makes them worse since instead of jumping on cav to block them they just stay in formation so fewer models are blocking the cav from getting out cause the stance doesn't stop then from getting knocked down by cav it just makes them worse at reacting to it
@@darkomihajlovski3135 that actually requires test confirmation. In theory - yes, but warhammer is a blockbox in terms of how exactly those calculations work.
Blocking cavalry - ok, but what about soaking up charge damage? Unit in formation suppose to last longer, in theory, since health is distributed per model, so cav theoretically should overkill first line, while keeping rest of the models at more or less full health
Funny enough formation lock would be fantastic on Kislev, with most of their units being hybrid it would let more models in a unit stay back and shoot while the front line attacks. On Cathay the units in the back just stand and do nothing.
Agreed. I haven't played warhammer 3 but from older titles setting ranged or hybrid units to hold formation was great as it ensured those not directly engaged would continue to fire rather than pull their knife and die.
From my experience most units don't check to see if they should shoot on an individual basis, so if even 2-3 models of a 120 strong group get engaged in Melee the entire group stops shooting. -.-
When I first saw the option I though "Oh boy it is Yariwall from TW:Shogun 2 all over again. Time to watch Jade Halberds wreck things that are twice the cost". Turns out it is the opposite.
I just got your video recommended and remembered playing against you when we were both still in the Noobhammer community. Glad to see that you‘re a top player with a flourishing youtube channel now. Keep it up!
Would this be useful when using infantry to roadblock cavalry/monsters with splash attacks? It seems like less blobbing would be useful if your infantry is only there to stall things that aren't enemy infantry. Might also help prevent the pileup that happens when you try to finish off a lord/hero and nobody can attack once they start running away.
How could CA have forgotten what made "formation lock" actually good back in Rome 1? The Roman's 1) prioritized attack over formation holding, meaning they stepped forward to attack then fell back, which while meaning longer times between attacks and potentially fewer attackers. Which goes to 2) better leadership and armor on the "formation lock" side of things. I mean the Romans were generally better in everything buuuut 3) the phalanx formation troops received decent bonuses to head on combat Looks like any one of these three and bam issue solved
@@codyraugh6599 Two things: 1) CA isn't an entity. It is comprised of individuals whose knowledge is limited to the games they designed and tales they heard from senior staff. At this point Rome 1 was such a long time ago that probably only a handful of employees, if that, knows how that game worked. 2) With the complete engine overhaul from Empire onward, the way combat works is fundamentally different from older entries.
@@khankhomrad8855 yet they copy pasted from a older entry. And all you did was point out the stupidity of the move and how they couldn't spend even a couple of minutes to observe how previous entires acted. Otherwise they would have known of the phalanx's corner lock issue, but also would have learned the benefits of the phalanx. Because the reach of the attacks having four ranks in the Macedonian phalanx able to attack well before anyone else could was massive, but even the basic phalanx for the mechanics it was easy to copy the spirit of why that formation was useful. "They aren't a single bla bla bla" no they aren't, but if they can spend time looking at and rating mods, they can spend a few mintutes to watch a couple YT clips of the formation they were copy pasting into their game. Or you know any one of the individuals with their individual time could have spent the time to check and let everyone know that hey, phalanx seems to have some odd combat bonuses, we might want to add ANY stat bonuses to this formation.
Similarly Kislev's mixed units that focus on melee come without the melee attack command locked on. They'll never get their charge bonus unless you change it or force click melee because they'll walk up then stop and then usually they don't even get a full volley shot off before they get engaged.
Actually what interrests me is the passive of Cathay infantry, when they hold still they actually get a good buff in their Defensive stats. So im kinda think thats the Main reason to hold the Units still. What makes it even more interresting that the passive buff dont do Well consider the fact that only 10 man Fight at max at the First place. So it seems Like it has its purpose but doesnt Work as intended. Thats Something to fix for Sure
It's a tad bit silly that letting your units blob up makes them better at holding the line. I notice that enemies tend to run right through cathayan melee infantry very easily and don't remember that being an issue for high elven spearmen and phoenix guard.
Not even Knocked over, just walked through. And the AI seems to be a lot more player like whether it actually engages with your unit. So if the AI doesn't want to take that fight, they just keep walking. Which is quite annoying if you're used to using single entities as front line units for ranged units especially if you're using Heroes, most Lords, and other small single entities.
@@shiwanabe That drives me insane. If AI big single entity unit want's to slap your mage in backline, it will do it, period. It will march through multiple fighting infantry units unaffected and proceed to slap mage till it's dead or routed, despite waves of reinforcements sent to help. But if I want do the same, I have to use forbidden 1000 Clicks Technique... and even such wrist devastating move can fail, because enemy mages run 10 meters away, while T1 half HP infantry draws full attention of my hero.
Oh I was about to start a cathay campaign, and love using T and chevron formations for guns. Good to know about, but it is weird to think we're adding mechanics that cause less melee units to attack, when that's exactly what limits their damage so. ESPECIALLY since models in the back of a unit seem so much more willing to continue ranged attacks in WH3 than in WH2.
One Cathay player to another, if you want guns, ally with Kislev or the Empire. Their handgunners are honestly better than the crane gunners or iron hail gunners IMO.
@@thethirdsicily4802 The cranes are OK but I find they generally underperform and they struggle once the enemy close the distance because of their slower fire rate, and they can't fight in melee worth a damn. Iron Hail gunners just don't have the range. Honestly, I think Streltsi and regular handgunners have better general performance and flexibility
As someone who's played Cathay and wondered why the formation lock seems to be worse than just letting them fight normally, I was about to be INCREDIBLY surprised by that test before you revealed the switcheroo.
Interesting I want to do some tests on this. I was surprised they even held for less time. I found out late in the game that high elves spearmen when not put in spread/spaghetti lines would hold significantly longer. I wonder if formation lock would be useful if not using spread/spaghetti lines and instead using a deeper formation.
It makes sense it's a defensive formation made to keep your rectangle shape where it is, to maintain the screen to the archers behind, not intended for attacking and will lose in an offensive situation compared to open formation
well this might fix the problem with Pikemen from the Southern Realms mod you had in Warhammer II I guess, where giving them an actual Pike wall ruined their ability to respond to single entities.
1) This should be the default for any unit except maybe some barbarian-type units like orcs. 2) This should be a benefit. 3) How did we come to a place where formations make your units perform worse in a real-time tactics game?
Cause it's both a complex simulation with multiple moving pieces and at the same time a gross simplification of real life. You're never gonna have every facet of it match what would happen in real life. I mean what is your suggestion to make it work? Isn't holding a formation inherently going to result in units that could be engaging in combat not doing so? Given the limitation of the simulation how do you make that not a detriment? I suppose the simplest solution would just be to give an arbitrary stat buff to units in formation but that's obviously not the ideal way it would work. Obviously the real question is why did they make this a mechanic, a default mechanic, that just clearly doesn't work. But it's both clear and understandable why this doesn't work.
@@noneofyourbusiness3288 Of course, instead of engaging your two brain cells to think about why this might happen, and what complications might make it this way and the billion other issues that have to be solved to create what has been created you just call the devs lazy. Bell end.
@@boozebeard9501 why does he or any other fan have to engage their two braincells to think of this much nuance for a shitty business practice of CA's? The formation is faulty because it loses both in holding and attacking situations so it is obviously bugged/half-assed. Why do you attack your fellow fan, just to lick CA's heels?
@@kurrymurry Cause I actually work in the games industry so both know what I'm talking about and know how hard the people work. You might see it as dunking on CA, the faceless corporation, but to me you are just talking shit about hard working people, on topics you don't know anything about.
Which is incredibly annoying if you've ever played the 1st Rome. Because they copy pasted the phalanx formation but removed all the benefits that made phalanx actually useful. Like they didn't even bother using the Roman Unit AI which would have suited this far better, nah they had to copy paste the Phalanx but remove the reach bonuses and shield defensive buffs.
100% just a few hours of playing WH3 and you can already tell they focused purely on gimmicks that would help sell more copies, Rather than fix up the games foundations and make significant changes to the back end, futureproofing it for a few years of DLC. "But look guys, you can build towers now" Smh
@@Nadz203 sadly I can fix the whole thing and make the formation desireable with 1 simple patch. 1st 5% armor buff while in it. 2nd major leadership buff, maybe 50% from this formation, like launch day dwarves leadership. For those who don't know or remember, on launch day slayers were pointless to take because it was the difference of a unit fleeing when only 4 guys were left W/O lord nearby, vs unit staying and dying to the last man, but the rest of the Dwarves were just cheaper than the slayers.
this has been apparent in almost every total war I can think of. this ain't exclusive to warhammer, or even the newer ones. Napoleon and Empire ahd a plethora of useless stances that generally made the unit worse 10 times out of 10. Even juggernauts like med 2 aren't free from this. schiltron is useless unless you've intentionally gotten spearmen encircled, lance formation just kills your cav off faster, and unless you do a very specific chain of commands at the precise times, pikes just straight up don't work in the base game. So take off your blindfold and stop pretending wh3 introduces the issue of useless stances.
The ability is intended to be used so that single entities don't cause an entire formation to cluster around them creating gaps in your infantry line that allows units to penetrate into your archers. It was something I hated that would happen in WH1 and 2. A line wouldn't maintain itself and would clump up around units creating gaps.
I guess Formation lock was supposed to be the equivalent of the Yari Wall in Shogun 2 but they nerved it into the ground because the Yari Wall was an absurdly strong mechanic which made the higher tier unit nearly obsolete
I've been thinking about this for a while and kept turning it off, but I wasn't sure if I was doing the right thing - thanks for confirming! Hope you keep up the great work your doing with your channel!
Well i'd say if you had a cheap meat shield that you wanted to hold the enemy at bay like how you showed, and let your ranged units do damage for longer it would pay off. a long line that gets burned down like a slow fuse and not as many units of yours blobbed so your archers can wreck em faster.
@@muscularclassrepresentativ5663 I misunderstood the original comment. I would still like to see further testing as it relates to missile units and formation holding. Perhaps Enticity did test different arrangements and missile types but only showed the relevant differences he found.
@@kadenb7258 The only time it's going to make a difference is giving gunpowder units lines of fire. And even then I don't think it's a good idea because the AI is very good at squeezing through gaps in your lines in 3, so if you just deploy a bunch of narrow columns it will walk right past them.
Anybody reading up on this now: formation attack actually works better now. CA tweaked it to give some melee defense which seems to now make the difference in a fight.
I feel like formation lockings real use is ensuring you're able to take mass from a charge while bracing or counter charging. I've seen cav obliterated because soldiers don't blob after initial contact with the first horse and distribute the rest of the attacking mass evenly amongst the ranks. I'd like to see situations like that tested, since the are other comments with opposing anecdotes.
Units don't share mass every model has its own amount they interact individualy if the back row of a unit isn't touched they don't contribute to the row actually taking the charge there also a glitch where units with charge reflect still get the damage from the charging unit so its more optimal to counter charge large units take the charge like they should
Cathay is actually a defensive faction similar to Dwarves (using turtle-tactics), and most of their units are intended to brace/hold so that the enemy can't reach your Jade Crossbowmen or gunners/artillary by pushing through your formations. However, as it currently stands the bracing/charge-reflection is broken at launch and doesn't work fully as intended. Because if the mechanic was working as it should, it's supposed to be that Cathay units (which are mostly spears/anti-large) can maintain their bracing/charge-defense on individual models not engaged in combat. Meaning that even if you charge them with infantry, the models in the back row are actually still buffed against a charge. Meaning that the old tactic of using cheap infantry to break up a braced spear-unit and then just charging your cavalry straight through (negating the charge-defense of those units) shouldn't work on Cathay. So ideally if everything was working as intended. Cathay should be able to basically hold a chokepoint with spear units and then melt you down with missles/artillary, and trying to overwhelm them with cavalry/infantry rushing would be useless. Making them the hardest counter to factions like Lizardmen, Chaos, Norsca, and Beastmen. Forcing you to largely rely on either having better ranged units in terms of range (High Elves/Wood Elves/Skaven) or using a lot of monstrous entities.
I could be way off here, but wouldn't formation lock be solely useful for ranged units so that they can stand and shoot without having to waste time repositioning at moving targets or flows of battle?
What I really find interesting is the steam post Creative Assembly put out about why it's taking them so long to fix things. They even made a diagram explaining it to us "non-developers". Essentially, they said that it's hard to fix because all of their code is interconnected and changing any one thing changes a million other things and it's like picking a single string out of a box of strings without touching any of the other strings. Now I'm no professional developer, but I did graduate university with a degree in Computer Science, and I'm pretty sure what they actually just said is that their entire codebase is a big gigantic mess and they have no idea what they're doing.
Uni assignments are very different from actual product development. Object, module, and even data dependencies are impossible to avoid in real product development.
And here was me thinking Cathay just sucked. My jade warriors could barely handle basic savage orcs and turns out this junk button has been active the whole time.
One situation i have found where it actually helps (a lot) is against cavalry. without formation a lot of cavalry can just run right through the Battalion. But with it on, only one or two entities gets knocked out of the way and then the horsemen are stuck in the middle of the formation being attacked from all sides.
Formations were useful in previous titles under certain situations where melee defence and shield needed to face a specific direction at all times and also prevent enemy units from going in between your unit. But with Warhammer, there's aoe damage and heavy mass and flanking everywhere and these formations just end up taking a lot of time trying to get back to their original position.
...nah, they were never really useful. tetsudo was really for show, lance formation never worked, schilltron did nothing, fire and advance in empire/napoleon made them legit worse. I will give you phalanx and square formation though. but not med 2 pike wall, as in base it straight up doesn't work without pulling of a specific command chain at precise times.
@@poyloos4834 Agree to disagree on the parts we disagree on. Phalanx / Roman disciplined formation was the heart Rome 1 defence. Schiltron / Pike formation + Guard mode was useful to defend chokepoints without routing in M2TW and especially with Stainless Steel. Hollow square or even firing by rank formation were super useful in Empire and Napoleon. Rome 2 testudo was useful for soaking up archer fire in the vanguard while shield wall and spear wall again was useful to defend chokepoints without routing. And in TW3K, most formations are undeniably useful if even only because of the hardcoded buffs for some of them.
I don't think 1v1s is really a good test to this feature. From my perspective it's not there to make the unit last longer so much as it is to keep your unit in formation. It stops your units balling up around an enemy and opening potential holes in the line.or being rear charged as easily. You have a line that stays facing forwards and stays deployed out in the line you wanted which makes them far better for pinning down units for rear charges and rear fire. It also stops as much friendly fire landing on your own troops as they aren't 'entangled' with the enemy. You use it to enable your others forces to do their job easier, not to win 1V1s or to hold out for longer without support. I really think a 1v1 test against itself really doesn't test what the formation is actually for.
I think most of the units who have this get a (defensive) buff for not moving, and I assume this is to help them keep that bonus. It does not seem like the 10% damage resistance is worth it, though.
yeah I had also noticed something going on with cathay infantry, thanks for clearing it out. I usually unlocked it when sending my infantry in aggressively but good to know even when holding the line it's actually worse
Only cathay has this And its probably some kind of experimental feature But yes, all of the time i was stunned at how my troops refused to envelop the enemy Making my antilarge units lose against large units because they were only fighting 1v1s
so basically guard mode in Rome 1 total war. i rarely used it...mostly to prevent my missiles from chasing units that got out of their range, but sometimes to keep my spearmen in a tight formation vs cav. for inf its usually bad as your unit doesnt try to encircle the enemy.
The number of times I forgot to turn this off for all my units and stared in confusion as my missile units ignored orders is way too fucking high. Can't imagine what it's like for newer players.
Sort of, like you said there are situations in which this is a good idea, and, for a real Cathay army, these situations are always the case. Cathay is forced to deal with the yin yang balance system, so every melee troop needs a nearby ranged troop to work well, also, the yang bonus is purely defensive, not offensive, so the real role of their infantry is not to kill the enemy, but to hold them off while ranged does the damage, keeping formation makes your units engage less in battle, which reduces the speed at which they take damage, plus the defensive bonuses, making them last for quite a while so you can shoot them with guns and arrows from behind.
Actually, in the video, it clearly shows that infantries hold the line 30% longer WITHOUT the formation lock. Less units engaged means the enemies line can focus on just a few units and quickly kill them while not being killed fast enough, resulting in a generally weaker line for defensive purpose (or any purposes)
I thought the idea of formation lock was to help keep multiple units in better formation, to help keep your harmony bonuses active, sort of like a tuned version of locked groups that would function without being disrupted by terrain, but if this is all it does, no improved resistance to pull through from chariots/cavalry or massive units, then yeah, it's kinda junk.
It actually makes them worse at stoping large units cause they try to stay in formation instead of jumping on them so fewer model's are there to block the large units
The way they've implemented formation locks is half-baked as fuck, how hard is it to have 2 or 3 QA guys that play a few rounds every time they implement a new mechanic like this to see if it functions properly. Sometimes it really does feel like they just add shit to the game and implement it with literally ZERO play experience to see if it even works, just shit in the bowl and ship it to live where we all bitch that the obviously broken stuff is obviously broken.
The only reason I'd use it, is if I want my unit to last as long as possible... Because fewer units fight. So fewer units take damage... if you form as a column
It actually makes them worse at holding since the models are more separated it takes more time for them to reform so 2 enemies can beat on 1 of yours making them die faster its not some huge difference but it makes them slightly worse for no reason
Applied your logic incorrectly here, the units that don't attack are leaving their friends that *do* attack out to dry, so you drop models faster since more of your units find themselves in 1v3 or 1v4 situations, even if you have infantry units of the same size it's like every fight your soldiers are making themselves feel outnumbered.
This goes back to the original Rome total war with Pike Formations. Pikes get shredded if you try to keep formation when they get attacked from a flank
You've posted that, if I recall correctly, in TW:W2 ranges units can range attack while defending in melee if you click to range attack that unit; is it a thing in warhammer 3? Does this thing do anything interesting to it? Can't really test it since I'm consumed by elden ring at the moment
the main reason I see use for it is against the AI when a SEM charges your line, the units don't unbrace and attack it, this means when the waves of infantry clash with your line it remains intact so there isn't gaps, after that in many cases then it's best to turn it off yeah
Very good to protect bowman, but be careful and don't let gap between your melee unit, because if an enemy rush your melee unit, the space between 2 of your unit will allow some enemy soldier and disturb your bowman
What about ranged units? do they have formation attack as well? I suppose it would be helpfull, considering that units now can shoot while in melee, so most of the models would still be able to fire, instead of mooving into melee
The new total war games are a miserable dumpster fire, and CA management and gullible fandom is to blame. I didnt buy wh3. All im saying is, the guy wants spear walls, shield walls, well mods are the only way ure getting those.
Wooow, I think this explains the issue people were seeing of multiple models dicking around instead of trying to get in the mix! It probably helps against cav charges or something so maybe turn it back on for your spearmen but obviously everyone else should have it off.
If you switch off formation lock once the units are engaged will they continue to fight normally? I find formation lock useful for sending a line of units into battle with one click. Without formation lock the entire line will try to attack whichever enemy unit you click on. With formation lock they will advance and each unit will attack the enemy directly in front of them.
Oh that may actually be a good reason for it, because far as I know yeah, once that is turned off thye should return to normal fighting, at least that seems to be the case here.
how does it work in chokepoints? normally holding position is about preventing enemies from forcing thiere way past a disadvantageous position which is pretty common in sieges. on by default is a pain but having it as an option is a net benefit and one i hope the dwarves will get in immortal empires
Formation Attack would work if large monsters couldn't just barrel through 20 lines of pikes like a wall of spaghetti noodles. I think this is my biggest gripe with TWW3, infantry units made specifically to handle large enemies can't handle them because spear walls aren't a thing. A monster barreling towards a bracing 4 lines deep of halberds in formation should get impaled, stopped in its track and quickly surrounded and stuck there until some other unit can get them out.
I only noticed this terrible feature the moment my archers got engaged by the enemy frontline, because my melee troops refused to block them. Needless to say it stayed deactivated since then. I always wonder why no one of CAs QA guys ever do simple tests, like in your video.
Well firstly, you have no way of knowing whether CA know about this already and just didn't have time to fix it and further more for every bug or problem you see and think "how did they miss that", just remember the thousands of bugs and glitches you don't see cause they already found and fixed them...
@@boozebeard9501 Fair enough. I get that you can't find every little mistake and bug immediately. However CA is a fairly large studio, and working on this game since Warhammer II in 2017 in probably various team sizes. Plus the game is nothing new or groundbreaking in comparison to it's predecessor. In fact the "formation attack" feature is one of the really few changes to the actual battle mechanics. There is just no logical and practical reason to put a new battle feature in the game (and have it active as a preset), that worsens you experience in game. Not to speak of the general trend to put out unfinished games in the industry in general.
Is formation lock good for holding streets in seiges or something still trying to figure out why it's there. Or is it meant to help keep harmony active?
I just realised this was a thing, I thought it was a bug when a bunch of my celestial guard were in the thick of the battle but still standing there like they are bracing for something… they really need to work on whatever this formation is… maybe give units in the formation a melee defence buff or something
It's situationally useful for blocking choke points and allowing other units with killing power to do the work, but yeah if you want your melee infantry to do damage turn this off.
This was an issue in another Total War game where instead of fighting the units spent more time filling in the gaps in the line from dead allies. I want to say Rome 2 with Phalanx units
Indeed. Formation Attack was only implemented because of CA's crap collisions in Rome 2, which caused all units to merge into a single blob of clipped soldiers. In Rome II, at least, turning formation attack off is essential if you want to get the wrap-around bonus. Dunno if Warhammer has something similar going on in that regard.
Think about it in the tabletop variant of the game, a good player ALWAYS uses the unit coherency to his advantage by putting as many models as possible into melee range while denying it for the opponent.
All it does currently is just make roughly half your infantry stand there and do nothing, no counterattacks or hits coming out from your guys lets them get chewed up faster by enemy infantry not getting put into stagger animations or dieing. People think "oh some of them stay back out of combat that means they take damage slower" No, the guys in the unit that do move in to attack end up being hopelessly outnumbered and cut down like goblin chaff, it makes your infantry trickle rather than moving as a united whole. It's straight up terrible for holding the line and actively nerfs your melee unit.
![YoungBoy Never Broke Again - Missing Everything [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dTYeMZGzOzw/mqdefault.jpg)
Did they ever fix this?
yup!
@@Enticity I'm ashamed to say the exact video after this was one saying they fixed it xD
It was really annoying to send my Jade Warriors into the enemy's flank, and see them use only three dudes to fight while the rest maintained their useless formation.
just hit the button and turn it off
Hold!
@@sownheard So why is it on by default? That's terrible game design
@@Loj84 because Cathay is a defensive faction and it helps hold the line. You should always have it turned on unless you're flanking, fighting archers, or fighting single entities. With infantry only that last one is gonna happen frequently and depending on the situation you may or may not want it for that. So 90% of the time you want it on
@@sorain4248 what? It doesn't help hold the line. That's the entire point of the video.
I think I know why this doesn't work in this game when it's so advantageous and powerful in others like Medieval 2.
This ability is essentially the spearwall ability that pikes and halberds have in the older, historical titles. But in this game, they don't actually form a proper spear wall, they are simply trying to maintain line ranks and nothing more.
The reason spear walls were so powerful in other Total Wars is because the unit has a multi-tiered brace. The front line crouches and braces against the ground, the second line has spears held at midevel, the third held up high. This means that multiple entities from multiple lines can attack at once, so that even if a unit in the formation does die and the game tries to account for it and have them reform, so many are attacking at one time that having a few not doing so to move up is a non-issue. That's why pikes and halberds in a braced spearwall formation were so powerful and hard to break through unless you could flank them.
So if the halberds and spears formed a proper spear wall in this game with this ability, it would probably work just fine. But because of the dumbing down and making units so frail to speed up battles, it would probably be immensely overpowered, hence why it doesn't work like that but, also, hence why the ability is a detriment.
It's a spear wall without a spear wall
Because spearmen in warhammer don't actually have extra reach, unlike pikemen in other titles. So essentially, it is like giving the spearwall formation to a group of swordsmen, no matter the unit.
@@verdantagent This is probably the real reason why it sucks. No reach weapons, and no real charge reflection like in 3K or Rome 2 means the optimal strategy is always to maximize number of entities engaged for max damage. It feels like dumbing down the combat to just throwing a bunch of stats at each other...
@@LazyIcarus Yes, that has been Warhammer since the first game.
People have been okay with that, so that's what we've gotten for all three and what CA has tried to do in more recent historical and Saga titles.
In shogun 2, it made your formation more dense. This led to other formations being outnumbered at the individual level. I don't know if tiered spears were a thing, but they did have tiered muskets for rapid fire.
How good is formation lock against cavalry/chariots I could guess that keeping it on might prevent some of them from being able to fully break through
No it makes them worse since instead of jumping on cav to block them they just stay in formation so fewer models are blocking the cav from getting out cause the stance doesn't stop then from getting knocked down by cav it just makes them worse at reacting to it
@@darkomihajlovski3135 that actually requires test confirmation. In theory - yes, but warhammer is a blockbox in terms of how exactly those calculations work.
Blocking cavalry - ok, but what about soaking up charge damage? Unit in formation suppose to last longer, in theory, since health is distributed per model, so cav theoretically should overkill first line, while keeping rest of the models at more or less full health
@@gitgood8509 cav does barely any damage anyway.
@@mati12554 that's weird, cuz my cav always gives a considerable impact on enemy army, perhaps AI just doesn't know how to use cavalry?
Funny enough formation lock would be fantastic on Kislev, with most of their units being hybrid it would let more models in a unit stay back and shoot while the front line attacks.
On Cathay the units in the back just stand and do nothing.
Agreed. I haven't played warhammer 3 but from older titles setting ranged or hybrid units to hold formation was great as it ensured those not directly engaged would continue to fire rather than pull their knife and die.
From my experience most units don't check to see if they should shoot on an individual basis, so if even 2-3 models of a 120 strong group get engaged in Melee the entire group stops shooting. -.-
Ironically, Kislev not having melee attack defaulted on for their mixed troops has basically the same problem.
I loved the idea of formation lock, it' s a shame it's so bad. I hope they'll fix it.
Just give us formations
When I first saw the option I though "Oh boy it is Yariwall from TW:Shogun 2 all over again. Time to watch Jade Halberds wreck things that are twice the cost". Turns out it is the opposite.
@@jfried6754 yeah wouldnt a imperial pike wall or elven phalanx, dwarven testudo or norscan sheild wall be nice
I just got your video recommended and remembered playing against you when we were both still in the Noobhammer community.
Glad to see that you‘re a top player with a flourishing youtube channel now. Keep it up!
Would this be useful when using infantry to roadblock cavalry/monsters with splash attacks? It seems like less blobbing would be useful if your infantry is only there to stall things that aren't enemy infantry.
Might also help prevent the pileup that happens when you try to finish off a lord/hero and nobody can attack once they start running away.
Technically yes, but i've still seen cavalry and medium size units just casually stroll through three lines of infantry, so it doesnt seem to work
How could CA have forgotten what made "formation lock" actually good back in Rome 1? The Roman's 1) prioritized attack over formation holding, meaning they stepped forward to attack then fell back, which while meaning longer times between attacks and potentially fewer attackers. Which goes to 2) better leadership and armor on the "formation lock" side of things. I mean the Romans were generally better in everything buuuut 3) the phalanx formation troops received decent bonuses to head on combat
Looks like any one of these three and bam issue solved
No, most splash attacks cannot hit that many units anyway and they still blob just in neat formations instead
@@codyraugh6599 Two things: 1) CA isn't an entity. It is comprised of individuals whose knowledge is limited to the games they designed and tales they heard from senior staff. At this point Rome 1 was such a long time ago that probably only a handful of employees, if that, knows how that game worked. 2) With the complete engine overhaul from Empire onward, the way combat works is fundamentally different from older entries.
@@khankhomrad8855 yet they copy pasted from a older entry.
And all you did was point out the stupidity of the move and how they couldn't spend even a couple of minutes to observe how previous entires acted. Otherwise they would have known of the phalanx's corner lock issue, but also would have learned the benefits of the phalanx. Because the reach of the attacks having four ranks in the Macedonian phalanx able to attack well before anyone else could was massive, but even the basic phalanx for the mechanics it was easy to copy the spirit of why that formation was useful.
"They aren't a single bla bla bla" no they aren't, but if they can spend time looking at and rating mods, they can spend a few mintutes to watch a couple YT clips of the formation they were copy pasting into their game. Or you know any one of the individuals with their individual time could have spent the time to check and let everyone know that hey, phalanx seems to have some odd combat bonuses, we might want to add ANY stat bonuses to this formation.
Similarly Kislev's mixed units that focus on melee come without the melee attack command locked on. They'll never get their charge bonus unless you change it or force click melee because they'll walk up then stop and then usually they don't even get a full volley shot off before they get engaged.
Actually what interrests me is the passive of Cathay infantry, when they hold still they actually get a good buff in their Defensive stats. So im kinda think thats the Main reason to hold the Units still. What makes it even more interresting that the passive buff dont do Well consider the fact that only 10 man Fight at max at the First place. So it seems Like it has its purpose but doesnt Work as intended. Thats Something to fix for Sure
It's a tad bit silly that letting your units blob up makes them better at holding the line. I notice that enemies tend to run right through cathayan melee infantry very easily and don't remember that being an issue for high elven spearmen and phoenix guard.
That's a mass issue, not a Cathay issue. All infantry get knocked over too easy atm
Not even Knocked over, just walked through.
And the AI seems to be a lot more player like whether it actually engages with your unit. So if the AI doesn't want to take that fight, they just keep walking. Which is quite annoying if you're used to using single entities as front line units for ranged units especially if you're using Heroes, most Lords, and other small single entities.
@@shiwanabe That drives me insane. If AI big single entity unit want's to slap your mage in backline, it will do it, period. It will march through multiple fighting infantry units unaffected and proceed to slap mage till it's dead or routed, despite waves of reinforcements sent to help. But if I want do the same, I have to use forbidden 1000 Clicks Technique... and even such wrist devastating move can fail, because enemy mages run 10 meters away, while T1 half HP infantry draws full attention of my hero.
@@maciekr4641 words cannnot begin to explain how much I relate to this comment
I'm having total war troy flashbacks reading this
Oh I was about to start a cathay campaign, and love using T and chevron formations for guns. Good to know about, but it is weird to think we're adding mechanics that cause less melee units to attack, when that's exactly what limits their damage so. ESPECIALLY since models in the back of a unit seem so much more willing to continue ranged attacks in WH3 than in WH2.
One Cathay player to another, if you want guns, ally with Kislev or the Empire. Their handgunners are honestly better than the crane gunners or iron hail gunners IMO.
@@jamesashcroft8170 the cranes ain't bad, but the iron hail? For being shotgunners they are shit at close range.
@@thethirdsicily4802 The cranes are OK but I find they generally underperform and they struggle once the enemy close the distance because of their slower fire rate, and they can't fight in melee worth a damn. Iron Hail gunners just don't have the range.
Honestly, I think Streltsi and regular handgunners have better general performance and flexibility
Good info. I'm about to start my first Cathey campaign.
As someone who's played Cathay and wondered why the formation lock seems to be worse than just letting them fight normally, I was about to be INCREDIBLY surprised by that test before you revealed the switcheroo.
Interesting I want to do some tests on this. I was surprised they even held for less time. I found out late in the game that high elves spearmen when not put in spread/spaghetti lines would hold significantly longer. I wonder if formation lock would be useful if not using spread/spaghetti lines and instead using a deeper formation.
He showed that in the video though? A clip where the unit was as deep as it could go with gunners shooting around them.
Fucking knew this was garbage. Had no idea you could turn it off by default. Thanks
How do you turn it off by default? Couldn't see it in the game options
It makes sense it's a defensive formation made to keep your rectangle shape where it is, to maintain the screen to the archers behind, not intended for attacking and will lose in an offensive situation compared to open formation
well this might fix the problem with Pikemen from the Southern Realms mod you had in Warhammer II I guess, where giving them an actual Pike wall ruined their ability to respond to single entities.
1) This should be the default for any unit except maybe some barbarian-type units like orcs.
2) This should be a benefit.
3) How did we come to a place where formations make your units perform worse in a real-time tactics game?
Cause it's both a complex simulation with multiple moving pieces and at the same time a gross simplification of real life. You're never gonna have every facet of it match what would happen in real life. I mean what is your suggestion to make it work? Isn't holding a formation inherently going to result in units that could be engaging in combat not doing so? Given the limitation of the simulation how do you make that not a detriment? I suppose the simplest solution would just be to give an arbitrary stat buff to units in formation but that's obviously not the ideal way it would work.
Obviously the real question is why did they make this a mechanic, a default mechanic, that just clearly doesn't work. But it's both clear and understandable why this doesn't work.
@@boozebeard9501 It worked in the past, but CA has gotten more and more lazy over the years.
@@noneofyourbusiness3288 Of course, instead of engaging your two brain cells to think about why this might happen, and what complications might make it this way and the billion other issues that have to be solved to create what has been created you just call the devs lazy. Bell end.
@@boozebeard9501 why does he or any other fan have to engage their two braincells to think of this much nuance for a shitty business practice of CA's? The formation is faulty because it loses both in holding and attacking situations so it is obviously bugged/half-assed. Why do you attack your fellow fan, just to lick CA's heels?
@@kurrymurry Cause I actually work in the games industry so both know what I'm talking about and know how hard the people work. You might see it as dunking on CA, the faceless corporation, but to me you are just talking shit about hard working people, on topics you don't know anything about.
Amazing, at this point I'm convinced that CA just adds abilities cause they seem cool and don't test them at all lol
Which is incredibly annoying if you've ever played the 1st Rome. Because they copy pasted the phalanx formation but removed all the benefits that made phalanx actually useful. Like they didn't even bother using the Roman Unit AI which would have suited this far better, nah they had to copy paste the Phalanx but remove the reach bonuses and shield defensive buffs.
100% just a few hours of playing WH3 and you can already tell they focused purely on gimmicks that would help sell more copies, Rather than fix up the games foundations and make significant changes to the back end, futureproofing it for a few years of DLC.
"But look guys, you can build towers now" Smh
@@Nadz203 sadly I can fix the whole thing and make the formation desireable with 1 simple patch. 1st 5% armor buff while in it. 2nd major leadership buff, maybe 50% from this formation, like launch day dwarves leadership. For those who don't know or remember, on launch day slayers were pointless to take because it was the difference of a unit fleeing when only 4 guys were left W/O lord nearby, vs unit staying and dying to the last man, but the rest of the Dwarves were just cheaper than the slayers.
@@Nadz203 pretty much all the problems are due to the engine. every game since empire total war has had these issues.
this has been apparent in almost every total war I can think of. this ain't exclusive to warhammer, or even the newer ones. Napoleon and Empire ahd a plethora of useless stances that generally made the unit worse 10 times out of 10. Even juggernauts like med 2 aren't free from this. schiltron is useless unless you've intentionally gotten spearmen encircled, lance formation just kills your cav off faster, and unless you do a very specific chain of commands at the precise times, pikes just straight up don't work in the base game. So take off your blindfold and stop pretending wh3 introduces the issue of useless stances.
The ability is intended to be used so that single entities don't cause an entire formation to cluster around them creating gaps in your infantry line that allows units to penetrate into your archers. It was something I hated that would happen in WH1 and 2. A line wouldn't maintain itself and would clump up around units creating gaps.
guard mode
Is it good for hybrid or range units? Does locking formation make more unit shoot while in melee?
Ya, sounds like it would have be way more usefull on kislev if it allows the backline to fire ranged.
@@mso2013 It's gonna be hard to be useful on Kislev when this is a feature found on Cathay's units
@@invictus7736 i made a typo for if, ups.
Irrelevant, this stance is only available on Cathay's melee infantry. No hybrid or ranged unit has it.
@@AshenVictor not irrelevant, this would be a potentially useful avenue to take this otherwise useless feature.
I guess Formation lock was supposed to be the equivalent of the Yari Wall in Shogun 2 but they nerved it into the ground because the Yari Wall was an absurdly strong mechanic which made the higher tier unit nearly obsolete
I've been thinking about this for a while and kept turning it off, but I wasn't sure if I was doing the right thing - thanks for confirming! Hope you keep up the great work your doing with your channel!
Well i'd say if you had a cheap meat shield that you wanted to hold the enemy at bay like how you showed, and let your ranged units do damage for longer it would pay off. a long line that gets burned down like a slow fuse and not as many units of yours blobbed so your archers can wreck em faster.
Somone test this.
@@kadenb7258 it's literally shown in the video
@@muscularclassrepresentativ5663 I misunderstood the original comment. I would still like to see further testing as it relates to missile units and formation holding. Perhaps Enticity did test different arrangements and missile types but only showed the relevant differences he found.
@@kadenb7258 The only time it's going to make a difference is giving gunpowder units lines of fire. And even then I don't think it's a good idea because the AI is very good at squeezing through gaps in your lines in 3, so if you just deploy a bunch of narrow columns it will walk right past them.
@@AshenVictor Yeah gunpowder units would probably be best for this, and would have to constantly charge the meatshields into em to hold them at bay.
Anybody reading up on this now: formation attack actually works better now.
CA tweaked it to give some melee defense which seems to now make the difference in a fight.
I feel like formation lockings real use is ensuring you're able to take mass from a charge while bracing or counter charging. I've seen cav obliterated because soldiers don't blob after initial contact with the first horse and distribute the rest of the attacking mass evenly amongst the ranks.
I'd like to see situations like that tested, since the are other comments with opposing anecdotes.
Units don't share mass every model has its own amount they interact individualy if the back row of a unit isn't touched they don't contribute to the row actually taking the charge there also a glitch where units with charge reflect still get the damage from the charging unit so its more optimal to counter charge large units take the charge like they should
Cathay is actually a defensive faction similar to Dwarves (using turtle-tactics), and most of their units are intended to brace/hold so that the enemy can't reach your Jade Crossbowmen or gunners/artillary by pushing through your formations. However, as it currently stands the bracing/charge-reflection is broken at launch and doesn't work fully as intended. Because if the mechanic was working as it should, it's supposed to be that Cathay units (which are mostly spears/anti-large) can maintain their bracing/charge-defense on individual models not engaged in combat. Meaning that even if you charge them with infantry, the models in the back row are actually still buffed against a charge. Meaning that the old tactic of using cheap infantry to break up a braced spear-unit and then just charging your cavalry straight through (negating the charge-defense of those units) shouldn't work on Cathay.
So ideally if everything was working as intended. Cathay should be able to basically hold a chokepoint with spear units and then melt you down with missles/artillary, and trying to overwhelm them with cavalry/infantry rushing would be useless. Making them the hardest counter to factions like Lizardmen, Chaos, Norsca, and Beastmen. Forcing you to largely rely on either having better ranged units in terms of range (High Elves/Wood Elves/Skaven) or using a lot of monstrous entities.
I like the idea of the formation lock. Wonder if there are some real options to fix it and keep the intended flavor.
Replying weeks later to keep the video relevant! See this CA! Total War! Warhammer! WH3!
Im so impressed by the scientific rigor, repeated tests with multiple data points
I could be way off here, but wouldn't formation lock be solely useful for ranged units so that they can stand and shoot without having to waste time repositioning at moving targets or flows of battle?
Range units can't use formation lock and Cathay doesn't have any 360 firing units so they'd still have to reposition themselves to shoot
Wouldn't be so bad if there was an option to change whether it's on by default or not, like skirmish or guard mode, but I haven't seen one yet.
Yeah, I think that's key.
What I really find interesting is the steam post Creative Assembly put out about why it's taking them so long to fix things. They even made a diagram explaining it to us "non-developers". Essentially, they said that it's hard to fix because all of their code is interconnected and changing any one thing changes a million other things and it's like picking a single string out of a box of strings without touching any of the other strings.
Now I'm no professional developer, but I did graduate university with a degree in Computer Science, and I'm pretty sure what they actually just said is that their entire codebase is a big gigantic mess and they have no idea what they're doing.
Uni assignments are very different from actual product development. Object, module, and even data dependencies are impossible to avoid in real product development.
That's why I subscribed, for these practical trchniques! Thanks
And here was me thinking Cathay just sucked. My jade warriors could barely handle basic savage orcs and turns out this junk button has been active the whole time.
One situation i have found where it actually helps (a lot) is against cavalry. without formation a lot of cavalry can just run right through the Battalion. But with it on, only one or two entities gets knocked out of the way and then the horsemen are stuck in the middle of the formation being attacked from all sides.
Formations were useful in previous titles under certain situations where melee defence and shield needed to face a specific direction at all times and also prevent enemy units from going in between your unit. But with Warhammer, there's aoe damage and heavy mass and flanking everywhere and these formations just end up taking a lot of time trying to get back to their original position.
...nah, they were never really useful. tetsudo was really for show, lance formation never worked, schilltron did nothing, fire and advance in empire/napoleon made them legit worse. I will give you phalanx and square formation though. but not med 2 pike wall, as in base it straight up doesn't work without pulling of a specific command chain at precise times.
@@poyloos4834 Agree to disagree on the parts we disagree on. Phalanx / Roman disciplined formation was the heart Rome 1 defence. Schiltron / Pike formation + Guard mode was useful to defend chokepoints without routing in M2TW and especially with Stainless Steel. Hollow square or even firing by rank formation were super useful in Empire and Napoleon. Rome 2 testudo was useful for soaking up archer fire in the vanguard while shield wall and spear wall again was useful to defend chokepoints without routing. And in TW3K, most formations are undeniably useful if even only because of the hardcoded buffs for some of them.
I don't think 1v1s is really a good test to this feature. From my perspective it's not there to make the unit last longer so much as it is to keep your unit in formation. It stops your units balling up around an enemy and opening potential holes in the line.or being rear charged as easily. You have a line that stays facing forwards and stays deployed out in the line you wanted which makes them far better for pinning down units for rear charges and rear fire. It also stops as much friendly fire landing on your own troops as they aren't 'entangled' with the enemy. You use it to enable your others forces to do their job easier, not to win 1V1s or to hold out for longer without support. I really think a 1v1 test against itself really doesn't test what the formation is actually for.
Could be cool if when in formation they get some sort of defensive bonus to make up for the reduced dps, but not sure if that would be balanced.
I think most of the units who have this get a (defensive) buff for not moving, and I assume this is to help them keep that bonus. It does not seem like the 10% damage resistance is worth it, though.
Or just give us the old formation system back
@@christopherclayton5500 No, they maintain their defensive stance with this turned off. That's a unit level effect not a model level effect.
yeah I had also noticed something going on with cathay infantry, thanks for clearing it out. I usually unlocked it when sending my infantry in aggressively but good to know even when holding the line it's actually worse
Only cathay has this
And its probably some kind of experimental feature
But yes, all of the time i was stunned at how my troops refused to envelop the enemy
Making my antilarge units lose against large units because they were only fighting 1v1s
Formation attack has been a thing since rome 1 lmao
@@sorain4248 experimental in the context of Warhammer 3 he probably means.
I had no idea about this, thank you so much! :D
Rightfully Angry Soldier: Why were you NOT helping in the fight!?
Confused and Apologetic Soldier: ...Because we needed to stay in formation...
so basically guard mode in Rome 1 total war. i rarely used it...mostly to prevent my missiles from chasing units that got out of their range, but sometimes to keep my spearmen in a tight formation vs cav.
for inf its usually bad as your unit doesnt try to encircle the enemy.
I saw that ability during my quick look at cathay and went "this.. sounds like it would be a detriment". always nice to have confirmation
I really enjoy your informative vids. I always wondered if the formation thing was any good
So another skirmish mode basically. A terribly situational ability that for some ridiculous reason is turned on by default.
The number of times I forgot to turn this off for all my units and stared in confusion as my missile units ignored orders is way too fucking high. Can't imagine what it's like for newer players.
@@muffinmaster7059 you can change that in settings so it's not auto on.
@@muffinmaster7059 o my horror as a new player watching my archers ignore my orders and running away, i was so lost... good times
Sort of, like you said there are situations in which this is a good idea, and, for a real Cathay army, these situations are always the case.
Cathay is forced to deal with the yin yang balance system, so every melee troop needs a nearby ranged troop to work well, also, the yang bonus is purely defensive, not offensive, so the real role of their infantry is not to kill the enemy, but to hold them off while ranged does the damage, keeping formation makes your units engage less in battle, which reduces the speed at which they take damage, plus the defensive bonuses, making them last for quite a while so you can shoot them with guns and arrows from behind.
Actually, in the video, it clearly shows that infantries hold the line 30% longer WITHOUT the formation lock. Less units engaged means the enemies line can focus on just a few units and quickly kill them while not being killed fast enough, resulting in a generally weaker line for defensive purpose (or any purposes)
I thought the idea of formation lock was to help keep multiple units in better formation, to help keep your harmony bonuses active, sort of like a tuned version of locked groups that would function without being disrupted by terrain, but if this is all it does, no improved resistance to pull through from chariots/cavalry or massive units, then yeah, it's kinda junk.
It actually makes them worse at stoping large units cause they try to stay in formation instead of jumping on them so fewer model's are there to block the large units
The way they've implemented formation locks is half-baked as fuck, how hard is it to have 2 or 3 QA guys that play a few rounds every time they implement a new mechanic like this to see if it functions properly. Sometimes it really does feel like they just add shit to the game and implement it with literally ZERO play experience to see if it even works, just shit in the bowl and ship it to live where we all bitch that the obviously broken stuff is obviously broken.
The only reason I'd use it, is if I want my unit to last as long as possible... Because fewer units fight. So fewer units take damage... if you form as a column
that's my thoughts, seeing as Cathay seems to be a defensive hold the line faction that's probably the intention too
It actually makes them worse at holding since the models are more separated it takes more time for them to reform so 2 enemies can beat on 1 of yours making them die faster its not some huge difference but it makes them slightly worse for no reason
His last test appears to contradict that
Except they don't last longer
Applied your logic incorrectly here, the units that don't attack are leaving their friends that *do* attack out to dry, so you drop models faster since more of your units find themselves in 1v3 or 1v4 situations, even if you have infantry units of the same size it's like every fight your soldiers are making themselves feel outnumbered.
This goes back to the original Rome total war with Pike Formations. Pikes get shredded if you try to keep formation when they get attacked from a flank
You've posted that, if I recall correctly, in TW:W2 ranges units can range attack while defending in melee if you click to range attack that unit; is it a thing in warhammer 3? Does this thing do anything interesting to it? Can't really test it since I'm consumed by elden ring at the moment
the main reason I see use for it is against the AI when a SEM charges your line, the units don't unbrace and attack it, this means when the waves of infantry clash with your line it remains intact so there isn't gaps, after that in many cases then it's best to turn it off yeah
How does the 1.3 update effect your opinion?
Very good to protect bowman, but be careful and don't let gap between your melee unit, because if an enemy rush your melee unit, the space between 2 of your unit will allow some enemy soldier and disturb your bowman
What about ranged units? do they have formation attack as well? I suppose it would be helpfull, considering that units now can shoot while in melee, so most of the models would still be able to fire, instead of mooving into melee
man i want formations like spear wall, shield wall and such, not formation lock thingy
Mods
@@Rio-un5jl Why do you need players to make the game good?
@@Rio-un5jl If a game need mods to fix the problems of the game, then the game is a failure in every single way
The new total war games are a miserable dumpster fire, and CA management and gullible fandom is to blame. I didnt buy wh3. All im saying is, the guy wants spear walls, shield walls, well mods are the only way ure getting those.
Wooow, I think this explains the issue people were seeing of multiple models dicking around instead of trying to get in the mix!
It probably helps against cav charges or something so maybe turn it back on for your spearmen but obviously everyone else should have it off.
If you switch off formation lock once the units are engaged will they continue to fight normally? I find formation lock useful for sending a line of units into battle with one click. Without formation lock the entire line will try to attack whichever enemy unit you click on. With formation lock they will advance and each unit will attack the enemy directly in front of them.
Oh that may actually be a good reason for it, because far as I know yeah, once that is turned off thye should return to normal fighting, at least that seems to be the case here.
how does it work in chokepoints? normally holding position is about preventing enemies from forcing thiere way past a disadvantageous position which is pretty common in sieges. on by default is a pain but having it as an option is a net benefit and one i hope the dwarves will get in immortal empires
Formation Attack would work if large monsters couldn't just barrel through 20 lines of pikes like a wall of spaghetti noodles. I think this is my biggest gripe with TWW3, infantry units made specifically to handle large enemies can't handle them because spear walls aren't a thing. A monster barreling towards a bracing 4 lines deep of halberds in formation should get impaled, stopped in its track and quickly surrounded and stuck there until some other unit can get them out.
Could formation lock allow your ranged units to fire for longer after being engaged from the flank?
Was bad in Rome 2 is still bad now.
Lol what you actually expect CA to fix something XD
So basically only useful for checkboard formations for maximising range damage while minimising meele?
Is this the reason why my cavalry refuse to listen to my orders?
I have to try this out, thank you very much.
I only noticed this terrible feature the moment my archers got engaged by the enemy frontline, because my melee troops refused to block them. Needless to say it stayed deactivated since then.
I always wonder why no one of CAs QA guys ever do simple tests, like in your video.
Well firstly, you have no way of knowing whether CA know about this already and just didn't have time to fix it and further more for every bug or problem you see and think "how did they miss that", just remember the thousands of bugs and glitches you don't see cause they already found and fixed them...
@@boozebeard9501 Fair enough. I get that you can't find every little mistake and bug immediately. However CA is a fairly large studio, and working on this game since Warhammer II in 2017 in probably various team sizes. Plus the game is nothing new or groundbreaking in comparison to it's predecessor. In fact the "formation attack" feature is one of the really few changes to the actual battle mechanics. There is just no logical and practical reason to put a new battle feature in the game (and have it active as a preset), that worsens you experience in game.
Not to speak of the general trend to put out unfinished games in the industry in general.
Is formation lock good for holding streets in seiges or something still trying to figure out why it's there. Or is it meant to help keep harmony active?
Guard mode should keep harmony active by itself, as long as the unit itself doesn't move out of range.
I just realised this was a thing, I thought it was a bug when a bunch of my celestial guard were in the thick of the battle but still standing there like they are bracing for something… they really need to work on whatever this formation is… maybe give units in the formation a melee defence buff or something
But how do you turn this off? I don't see it in options anywhere around skirmish mode, not even in the same tab
is it more benefitial when formation locking units utilising the ying/yang mechanic?
Yin yang will do just as well either way. Units will get the standing still bonus even when formation lock is off too.
How well does it do vs large or single entity units? I imagine its best used for Ogres and Giant and such
Can you please make a video about controlling guard mode? I've seen it get turned on for no reason when I put my units in a group.
Tbh I'm as stumped as you are. Hopefully CA come up with a fix before we figure out what the exact issue is.
can you test how formation lock behaves against cavalry and monstrous infantry?
As a defensive player, I used guard lock a lot in past games but obviously the unit still needs to
FILL IN THOSE RANKS
Another pricelessly valuable piece of information from this guy whata CHAD.
I am confused, so is it on of off the best for infantry vs infantry?
It's situationally useful for blocking choke points and allowing other units with killing power to do the work, but yeah if you want your melee infantry to do damage turn this off.
This was an issue in another Total War game where instead of fighting the units spent more time filling in the gaps in the line from dead allies. I want to say Rome 2 with Phalanx units
Indeed. Formation Attack was only implemented because of CA's crap collisions in Rome 2, which caused all units to merge into a single blob of clipped soldiers. In Rome II, at least, turning formation attack off is essential if you want to get the wrap-around bonus. Dunno if Warhammer has something similar going on in that regard.
is formation lock good for turtaling
and magic spam?
This would've been nice to know before I'd finished with it. Bet its really useful with high unit counts like Tzeentch
What was with the switch-a-roo at the beginning? Needlessly confusing.
I didn't even know there was such an ability in TWW3. And I've been playing it for 400+ hours so far
You a real one my dude. Thanks for this.
Ok the fact you gave a use for it is awesome
It's true since Shogun 2 afaik. Also If you want to negate charge bonus just position units in column .
Holy, I was wondering why are my units so bad compared to basically similar of enemy’s. Thanks for the info
dwarfs would be really usefull with this ability for holding fire lines, I would assume.
Why the hell did you said at the beginning the units that were winning had formation lock on?
Because that's how it SHOULD work
Realtively simple fix for CA, just add an option like with Skirmish formation in the settings.
Maybe the point of formation locking is to make it easier for ranged units to land shots, not for the unit itself to perform better.
You know what's also super annoying? Mixing your gunners and infantry only to have the gunners stand behind the infantry once you drag/position...
Think about it in the tabletop variant of the game, a good player ALWAYS uses the unit coherency to his advantage by putting as many models as possible into melee range while denying it for the opponent.
This just makes it so you have less models fighting then your opponent
All it does currently is just make roughly half your infantry stand there and do nothing, no counterattacks or hits coming out from your guys lets them get chewed up faster by enemy infantry not getting put into stagger animations or dieing. People think "oh some of them stay back out of combat that means they take damage slower" No, the guys in the unit that do move in to attack end up being hopelessly outnumbered and cut down like goblin chaff, it makes your infantry trickle rather than moving as a united whole. It's straight up terrible for holding the line and actively nerfs your melee unit.
So that explains why my units always end up with "zzzz" and I have to micro manage the shit out of them each time so they attack
Was turning it off since Rome 2 implemented it
wow for a second i thought this was Tk-mantis 2nd channel because of the way the video start and how close you sound like him.
Looked him up. Omg I speak a lot like him lol
Oh my God, now I know why my Ice Guard sucks soooo much in meele
Did they at least fix the bug where guard mode is always on? its so annoying
The Lord is near... morale boost for units
Oh so THAT is why my units were doing that. FFS. Is there any way to turn it off in the options so I don't have to do it in every damned battle ?
Great video, this was really good to know