Keep up the great work folks! The attack by the Irish press simply proves you are “flying over the target”! Your clarity, thoughtfulness and charity are reflected in every one of your podcasts. Make no mistakes, you are helping Catholics and prospective Catholics deepen or come to the Faith. God bless you all!!
I hope that pressure is not brought to bear on Bishop Winkler not to host your forthcoming Conference. Sorry, not Winkler is, it - I was thinking of the chap who played Fonzie - the good Bishop, I think, plays himself.
I've been so blessed as a convert from the Episcopal Church to have access to both holy and reverent Novus Ordo Masses and Traditional Latin Masses. I've been to both this very weekend. Thanks be to God.
The Irish Times used to be a Protestant journal, now it’s just a secular rag. Only a popular rag among the chattering left. The majority of Irish people would not even use it in the privy.
@@davidmorrison2739 Ah, there’s nothing quite like the culinary excellence of oily fish and chips with lashings of malt vinegar, a gentle avalanche of salt, and all wrapped up in the Opinions section of the Irish Times. That’s a quality meal right there! 🤣😂🤣😂
Years ago The Irish Times was the newspaper of the Anglo-Irish Protestant ascendancy. With the collapse of traditional Protestantism, it’s become another woke newspaper like the Guardian or the NY Times.
Gentlemen, and ma'am thank you so much for your intelligent discussions. I came to the conclusion last year that I will no longer attend the Novus Ordo Missae because of the disrespect shown to the Blessed Sacrament by the distribution of Holy Communion in the hand and the use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. The only men who have any right to distribute the Blessed Sacrament and even touch the Sacred vessels at public celebrations of the Mass are those who have consecrated hands. Receiving the Blessed Sacrament in the hand is a violation of Catholic practice and tradition that even Pope Paul VI was always opposed to. The practice of receiving the Blessed Sacrament in the hand is a Protestant practice that was intended by the Protestant Revolutionaries to diminish belief in the Doctrine of Transubstantiation.
Here's my solution and what I do for attending a new Mass, because family (>1/2 don't want to go to a Vetus Ordo). Go to it, it's usually going to be pretty acceptable so you can usually partake of it, if that is so. Communion time, wait till the line at the priest is nearly done go queue up and receive as you would sans indult. I try and avoid any interesting "no not this way my son" situations by wording up Father before hand, not receiving by indult, is that cool? and they're usually going to be cool with i But I've walked into at least 3 different non Trad churches unannounced and am glad the priests there honoured the old way of receiving the Eucharist.
The Council of Constantinople condemned the practice of communion on the tongue, defining that all parts of the body of a Christian, washed clean by the waters of Baptism, are equally clean and that Our Lord said to his disciples “TAKE and eat” (not stick out your tongue and let me put a bit of bread there). The reason for the introduction of communion on the tongue was that, by the Middle Ages, when everyone was nominally Christian, there were those receiving communion who were not, in fact, Christians and they would attend Mass and take away the host for use in pagan or satanic ceremonies. This can be avoided today by the Priest ensuring that he sees every communicant placing the host in his mouth. The practice of communion in the hand is the practice of the early Church and follows the simple command of Our Lord “take and eat”.
I totally agree with you. Having received the Body of Christ, I would like to have a few silent minutes of adoration left to me, but in France, most churches have Communion hymns.
There is a social club aspect to Mass attendance for some people. The sign of peace ending when everyone within sight has had their hand shaken, for example. One of our priests has omitted the sign entirely, as a distraction. Many years ago when I left the faith for the dubious delights of The World, one of the identifying characteristics of the young people who stayed was the extent to which the Church was their social life. They would have entertained any innovation, I felt, as long as it offered the opportunity to chat with friends. The terrible buildings and awful music of the time, summed up the mood. Baby and bathwater in my case. The suspension of time and space deserve better.
It seems to me a major problem is that people seem to have forgotten that Mass is about worshipping God / the sacrifice at Calvary. It should not be about entertaining the congratulation. It is not about you, but God. That is why TLM is superior, not the language per se because if all they did was a translation of the tlm things would much different now. The NO's focus, whether it was intentional or not, is too grounded and thus too tied to current trends/what the people (allegedly) want. If I had the choice, if they were more available, I would only attend tlms. As it is, I go to my local NO.
Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. One of the many benefits of moving to France in the eighties was putting some kilometres between myself and the Irish media... Irish Independent also, and of course RTE, rarely watch them today. If they did a hit piece regarding your upcoming visit, you're honoured, you must be doing something that irritates the poor things.
The mundanity found in so many churches today is not so much an indication of where people are on their ‘faith journey’, as an indication of the absence of the in-dwelling Holy Spirit. I am less generous than Mark, bless you all!
One reason why you see more reverence at the TLM is because the people inclined toward that mass are already pious and looking for that type of reverence when they attend mass.
We have reached those times described in 2 Timothy 4:3 _For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears_ This is more prevalent in the West where Catholicism has familiarized Christian that faith has to be tuned up to modernity and that's possible because God provided them with an infallible the Roman Pontiff. A concept that orthodoxy is resisting to although unfortunately there is some contamination since severy orthodox nations are trapped in the western order and its global indoctrination. Lord have mercy on us all sinners.☦️
People convert / revert because you are prepared to say out loud what people know in their hearts to be true. We have been gaslit by the secular world for so long. It’s no surprise that a bit of affirmation gives people the courage to do what they know is right.
I attend a Sunday 8:30am Low Mass in English, with the priest ad orientem to a smaller, separate altar positioned foreward of the high altar. It’s basically a trimmed version of the Traditional Latin Low Mass in English, reverently officiated and reverently received. However, there is no doubt in my mind that the TLM operates differently - it literally brings to the table something, an unfolding holiness that enfolds you, (if you are attentive to it) that is missing in anything else. Maybe that is why it has been attacked over the years - because that event in that format is the most holiest experience known to man?
A great discussion thank you. I really liked what Katherine said in response to "I don't get TLM I can't access it" Katherine's response went something like: "......we as a people have been changed by the culture we have since the reformation and Enlightenment and French revolution" This is so true and brilliantly and perfectly put I didn't write everything she said but ut is all exactly what I experience when I go to TLM. The reverence, power, beauty and enchantment is overwhelming and as she said its like NOTHING outside the church door it's a timelessness that is so profoundly needed and I think the ÿoung (God bless them) are intuitively finding it. I go to a very reverent NO Mass and I love my fellow parishioners but I only go there because there isn't a TLM near me.
Thank you Katherine, Gavin and Mark, our former President has done a ' Henry VIII ' on the Catholic Church in Ireland. She was once a defender of the Faith but has become a militant feminist, denying the Sanctity of human life from conception to natural death. ' Marriage' for Homosexuals and who knows buying and selling Babies for such couples is perfectly okay. She has lost The Faith and should move on to churches that allows all sorts. Keep up the good work of putting Jesus Christ in the forefront of all us who wish to be a true follower of The Way.❤
I think the Latin takes us beyond the ordinariness of the vernacular and puts us in a real beyond our ordinary daily life. It connects us with a universal tradition that unites us with Peter and situates us in a milieu that unites us with Heaven since the Mass is participated in by by both the faithful in Heaven and the faithful here on earth. The holiness is in the person rather than in the language but the Latin language, unspoken today, is spoken by the Church unifying all languages in the act of conveying holiness in the worship of God.
I don’t understand how anyone could criticize Larry Chapp. He’s brilliant and the discussion you had with him was illuminating. Please don’t apologize for him or try to explain him.
Mark, “whatever floats your boat” had me going way off the path. (I get what you’re saying, but there’s a downside.) I think many Catholics don’t understand what’s going on even with the NO and a folk mass. We just don’t know enough. I’ve done it all. Had many home masses. Did the folk mass thing. I want to go back to the mystery and transcendent. You know what gives me hope? The many Hispanic immigrants in my parish who show true reverence at their Spanish masses and Adoration. Reverence in how they dress, their gestures, and body posture. It’s obvious that this reverence was modeled for them. They embraced it. Worship.
As an aside, I live 5 time zones west of the UK, today I am traveling in a different part of the United States and I am now 7 times from the UK. Since public transportation is scarce on Sunday, I went to the nearest Catholic Church, it a cultural different, but it was still a valid Mass. A young girl was baptized at Mass.
I was at a NO Mass recently and the lady in the pew behind was audibly praying the priest's words at the consecration. Turns out she was a Eucharistic minister who went up and was offering the chalice.
🫤 I think there is a real misunderstanding of how to “participate” in the “priesthood of Christ,” which isn’t surprising because I don’t think it’s been really explained to the laity…
Dr Larry Chappe is exactly right about holiness. Dr Mark's words sround 19 minutes today are spot on too as are Gavin's later. I hope you keep on the 'middle road' as there are too many extremes these days. I love the TLM and the NO when the NO is said as it should be. Very few parishes do it correctly though. I took a young woman to a NO for her 1st Mass recently and the creed and Gloria was in Latin. She loved the Latin as it lifted her soul! Whst we have to remember there were abuses going on pre vatican II too. My relative is a priest and said both Masses reverently. At 27.50 mins onwards you are exactly right Mark! Keep on that right road please. Yes Taizé chant is good too. I was surprised when my relative priest said that too. Thank you .
When I found you was great help as I am struggling what pope is doing and here in Australia didn't hear one person who would speak up only hear you have to respect office of pope, so keep doing good work as I find it painful how godless people bullying and lie all the time
Katherine many of those people who 'arent being fed' aren't aware of that and wouldnt be affected by attendkng a TLM. It's about Faith and lack of it and lack of grace. Pray for priests fervently. Many struggle.
Don’t worry. The Irish Times appeals only to a certain liberal elite, mostly in the more affluent areas of south Dublin. It is borderline anti Catholic. I used to read it a lot. I always knew it was a bit biased but it has become much more extreme in the last five years. It does not represent the rest of Ireland.
Love your podcast.I think the Sacred Words ,especially in the Canon of the Holy Sacrafice are the most important things that should never be tampered with, except from the Pope. Especially do I notice the words " Benedicit", or " Blessed it", omitted in the Novus Ordo Cosecration.The ancient meaning of this word is " consecrate".
i agree the ambiguity of this papacy is very concerning. i find this papacy roams more with secular opinion than the real and true of what a papacy is called to do.
The Mass is BOTH a Sacrifice and a Banquet. In the Old Testament the three parts of a sacrifice were first the preparation of the sacrificial victim, second the actual sacrifice of the victim, and thirdly the consuming of the victim, each part integral and essential to the others. The Mass contains all three parts. The Mass isn't ONLY a sacrifice, it also involves the consuming of the sacrifice in Holy Communion.
Absolutely agree with Katherine. I attend the TLM here in Lyon, and occasionally the N.O when I'm on holidays, back in Ireland and so on. I know it's not a case of "the NO crowd are like that..... but we're like this" it's not simple. I have to say, however, that in my experience, and I emphasise MY EXPERIENCE, worshippers at the TLM will stay in the Church when Mass has ended, no chatting. There is definitely a quietness when you enter TLM Church, I have observed that lot of people tend to be very casual and talkative before and after the NO Mass. Don't get me wrong, I go quite happily to the NO Mass, it's not an obsession with me. I have to add also that certain "delicate" ethical issues seem to find their way into a TLM sermon as opposed to a NO sermon, the more "traditional" Priests don't seem to be afraid to lay it on the line, that's my experience in any case, might not be everyone's. Let's be friendly and exchange views politely, people seem to get very uptight when the TLM is mentioned, like the guy Dr Ashenden encountered, typically. Anyway, thanks for your great work folks.
The language of poetry changes, and its purposes also sometimes. You constantly see new translations of Latin, Greek and Chinese poetry, which bring their achievements to new hearers, achievements of emotion, thought and experience that have value for us today. As with the language of worship.
I attend the TLM and also the "unicorn" reverent Novus Ordo as recommended by Vatican II documents, not the "spirit" of Vatican II. So I do have sympathy for Larry Chapp's statement that "holiness" will save the world, not "Latin". I'm grateful that my daily experience of the Mass is reverent whether TLM or the "unicorn" Novus Ordo, but realize many Novus Ordo parishes haven't maintained the level of dignity that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the foretaste of Heaven as gifted from God, should have.
There is a little book of lectures by Christine Mohrmann (sp) on Ecclesiastic Latin. She points out that the language used by the Church was never a form that the general public understood. There is a role for Holy Languages that is not understood by professional liturgists.
I suppose that one’s view of the Latin language is, as with most things, based on our own experience. By the time I started studying Latin at school, the Mass was in English. Our Latin teacher was not a Catholic and had great contempt for “Church Latin” - he insisted upon the classical pronunciation. We translated such works as “De Bello Gallico” and poetry by Horace etc. So, my experience of the Latin language is of a rather down to earth language - accounts by Julius Caesar of how he constructed siege works etc or arrangements for paying his legions. Then, at University, I studied Law. While Gavin petitioned for less Property Law, I should have preferred more, with all of the attendant Latin and Norman French. Once again, rather down to earth - the common action “Quare clausum fregit” simply means “because he broke into my property”. Littleton on Tenures, written almost a thousand years ago, is written in Latin. The commentary by Coke is in Norman French. So, my own experience of Latin is not of a sacred language. Then prescriptions - when I was a boy, the Doctor still scribbled them down in Latin. The labels typed up by the Chemist even had “nocte” rather than “at night”. However, Hebrew sounds a very holy language.
A disciple in love with Christ will naturally tend to focus on Him during any liturgy. Its similar to what happens in any romance; one can be in the midst of a carnival and find it difficult to hear the crowd because one is completely focused on that one voice. But I suppose that the disciple who needs the most conducive ambiance is most deprived by impious liturgies. The devil is really like a lion, as scripture says. Looking for easy prey. There is (evil) method to the demise of reverent liturgy.
Great work and much appreciated! Katherine's recounting of her experience in Church particularly struck a cord with me as I have struggled with feeling judgmental and sinful when I would have to attend a Mass in a church where people were 'gathering' as if they were getting together at a social event. I generally avoid those churches and am very blessed to live in an area where the TLM is not only available but several churches have very reverent, sacred Norvus Ordo Masses. I am not particularly a proponent of TLM because of the opportunity to attend reverent Novus Ordo Masses and growing up with Latin Masses, Latin is not a 'foreign' language to me. What I discovered is, it's not the language at all but whether the Mass is God-centered or people centered. The hijackers of Vatican II most evidently lacked any relationship to God because to approach Calvary, enter into the presence of God, one must be humbled or one has missed the point. The incarnation, our redemption, becoming a child of God and having been given the gift of eternal life can but cast us to our knees in reverence and thanksgiving! I also have seen as Katherine did, that the people who prefer this communal gathering celebration are what I have called the 'gray hairs'. It is painful to admit, but it is my generation that has largely pushed for all the changes in Church doctrine and worship. Historically, I can only ponder the result of war; Our Blessed Mother came to Fatima during WWI and warned of a greater war to come if we did not repent and pray. She performed a miracle for all to see, believers and non-believers but people failed to respond. Indeed, we entered into the Roaring 20's where licentiousness and greed were rampant. After WWII, we entered another era of prosperity and greed. I do not know if previous generations were consciously seeking wealth and pleasure because they felt owed by the sacrifices made during the war, were led down that path by a desire to forget the hardships of the war, or had already begun to abandon a relationship with od because of feeling abandoned by Him in the advent of war but it seems to me that the generational shift after the wars produced much of the erosion of traditional values we must now deal with. It is more than a loss of the sacred, it is the failure to acknowledge our dependence on God and our failure to live by His Divine plan. Why did we not repent and pray after the miracle of Fatima? I suspect in most people's minds, they were not personally guilty of grave sins, rather, as Pope Francis is trying to do with the 'penitential rite',, the guilt lies in corporations, other groups that disparage the land, and 'tribal' conflicts. Without repentance there can be no metanoia, without metanoia, we are divorced from God and His life-giving Spirit and without God, the Mass is meaningless so it must be redirected to a 'gathering' of the community. Without a relationship with Our Lord, it makes no difference in what language the Mass is recited, whether the priest faces the altar or the people it will always be a noisy, social gathering of the godless who are desperately trying to fill the void with frivolity. As St. Paul warned us, without love which can only come from a deep relationship with Jesus, we afe but noisy gongs!
Well said Mark, its holiness not Latin. I love the TLM. I can also and do love for the majority of the time the NOM that I attend daily. It’s my love for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, which is the only person that matters.
It doesn’t matter that you can’t understand the Latin in the Mass. The priest is praying to God in a sacred language - we are there to worship God not to be entertained
The closest to accessing the holiness of the Mass outside the Latin Mass seems to be illustrated in the Ordinariate rite. There are all the prayers at the foot of the Altar and always uses the Roman Canon all in a holy type of vernacular.
The disappearance of the organ ( the organist, I guess), good choirs with a choir master ( the most suitable priest in the parish taking this role- just not enough priests any more), local schools and music teachers training young voices in brilliant hymns, English and Latin, and of course the sung Latin Mass…the disappearance or wilful destruction of these elements have brought us to the junking of the sacraments and the faith itself. Imagine RUclips channels being a place to go to for hope and inspiration! But it is, and I’m grateful for your channel.
The struggle between the Irish Catholic Church and the Government of Ireland has had phase after phase but it’s clear that the history is dark as well as light. Agree with Mark: only to be expected.
You all made excellent points about the TLM but for some reason did not make the following two obvious points. One, the Latin language was used originally for a very practical catholic reason. You can download a translation if you don’t have a missal or it isn’t available in the church. Two, the NO is very truncated. Also, the FSSP priests are very strong on catechism because they are particularly concerned for our souls. See you tomorrow!
I remember the beauty of the Latin mass from childhood, a treasure more valuable than the Sistine Chapel. but where to access it now I live in Bristol UK. .....It seems to be a guarded secret... very unCatholic to keep this from the laity...
@@johnraymond-barker524 Cheers! Talking of the West of England, there was a TLM Mass at Glastonbury Abbey about 3/4 weeks ago, said by Fr. Peter Morgan, who is actually ex-SSPX, but who was ordained by the Archbishop … I went, it was wonderful … all blessings!
People don't chatter before Mass (Novus Ordo or Vetus Ordo) at my parish, the Bournemouth Oratory. They gather in silence and prayer. It can be done, regardless of whether it's NO or VO. The priests need to catechise and imbue a spirit and culture of reverence in their flock. But I know I'm lucky to be in a parish like the Bournemouth Oratory.
My guitar is somethwhere in my house. I got tired of the 60s. When 'accessibility' trumps transcendence, poetry becomes 'useful' words; timeless is retired as nostalgia. I'm not comfortable with TLM, but the grace I get is like being slapped silly. To me, God seems to be saying, hang on a sec.
It's not just that the Catholic church in its current form fails to keep Catholics once they reach adulthood, it's also the fact that the secular world from the 1960s on was so appealing and so easy to live in. Novus Ordo or Latin Mass, I can see how many of my generation left the faith because it was basically perceived as a relic of the past even in Novus Ordo form because... who needs religion anymore, right? You have to bear in mind that particular time in history post WW2 and the cultural changes that took place. Now young ones are seeing that the secular world is not all it's cracked up to be with the current changes taking place (sex before marriage is one thing but transgenderism for example is something that even non-religious people have issues with) and they are now seeking the faith once more in an attempt to find meaning and get society back on track. I often discuss this with people, did the Novus Ordo drive people away from the Church? Not entirely in my opinion because I think it was going to happen anyway but I do think the Latin Mass is bringing quite a lot of them back. Love your content, thank you all for your time and effort and keep up the good work :)
Regarding Ex Operatis or whatever it was Mark said: The Holy Spirit will be, when he hears the Eucharist spoken, looking for a sinner and will not be surprised when he finds one.
I feel like there’s a major lack of understand about the Mass itself The priest offers the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass; our role as laity is to offer and unite our prayers with the priest’s toward the last four ends of the Mass…..Adoration, Thanksgiving, imploring Gods grace and mercy upon us and appeasing Gods righteousness anger against sins and grievous offenses against Him. The TLM is in itself focuses exactly on this Even back to the Old Testament, we have this example of Moses who offered the prayers and sacrifices for the people🙏✝️✝️✝️
We use special vocabularies all the time - think of a Jam session where the players pick up a phrase from another and carry it along and build upon it. We do not - I hope - teach regional vernacular in schools and pupils and parents would not, I expect expect it. Mundane language is used for purposes associated with entropy and is polluted with and indeed brought into existence by ideas associated with plots, stratagems and spoils. The need for a sacred language is the same as that for sacred scripture and we see how contemporary treatments ruin everything from Mallory to Gilbert and Sullivan.
Thank you for an exchange that was very interesting, as usual. However, could you please explain to the French speaker that I am what a "Eucharistic bear" is??? Thank you so much for your reply !
One thing is the objective reality/validity of the Mass, the other is the subjective fruits (or lack thereof) that can be gained from a priest who is sloppy or irreverent in the (valid) celebration.
I was born Catholic, went to mass, didn't understand Catholic until by the grace of God fell into a Trad crowd. What struck me were the books (missal, kyriales, bibles) looked very Catholic, the church looked *very* Catholic like you see in those 60's films and the atmos and the people there, the smells of candle wax and incense... Very Catholic. I felt I was going home. If dying is even 2x better than this, I'd settle!
Greetings Dear Friends. Great good positioning by Marc on TLM and NO-mass. Both, not either or. But, I do sense there is a definite "bigger" insistance on and in a pentential spirit in the TLM than in the NO mass, wouldn't you agree? I personally love that but I can clearly see why that is maybe the greatest stumblingblock for all progresivists....That and the kind of "upward" hierarchical bent in all the liturgical very vested movements of priests being accompanied from behind by young altar slave-like-boys obeying anticipatedly every gesture...I do see how TLM defies at all times the progressive "orgeuil" of all absolute autonomy striving of a very definite horizontalist egalitarian unending aspiration. I love that they must feel chastised by it, and that it will always be an insulting hurdle to them. But, that sounds vengeful, doesn't?
And I should also add, as a comprehension of the "oponent" that all the lacy stuff under the vestimenta and the akward skullcap on the priests head when he is preaching from the pulpit, it really projects you back in time in an eery, unconfortable way, which tends to create somewhat of an unreal bubble feeling one comes out of forlorn on the street again, nostalgically crushed and at the same time relieved there is now also the NO-liturgy around the Last Súper table... I do prefer a very deep piety in a NO celebration, accompanied buy the great choral latín music, as in the sunday celebrations of Paris Notre Dame parish, now held at the Saint Germain l'auxerrois Church in front of the Louvre.Very thoughtful homelies, deep reverential Spirit plus a modern but modest "openess" to the world...a great wise equilibrium.
It is not difficult to understand, follow and integrate the traditional Mass. There are weekly pamphlets or a book which have both Latin and English as well as the readings which are read out in English as well as on the sheet to be read. The bodily gestures, such as kneeling, genuflecting, keeping silent, Holy Communion kneeling on the tongue (or standing if unable to kneel) and focusing on God are authentically respectful. When I travel overseas I try and understand as well as appreciate the culture customs and language of other lands. In the same way Christianity should ge approached with a thirst for knowledge and understanding in order to comprehend the world, ourselves and others in relation to God. Jesus Christ came into this world in the past...2000 years ago and it seems obvious we don't cancel the past or period in between or trash the treasures others took great care to pass on to us. I allow myself to be enculturated by Christian culture that has been handed down. I do not want cultural dementia. As a Western Christian the traditional liturgy is my heritage and cultural link with the apostles in the West. It is holy for my ancestors and for me too. Many have died defending the traditional Mass rather than see it distorted by abuses or falsities. The Latin language is ancient, unifying and foundational. It rests upon Etruscan, Oscan, ancient Greek, Proto-Italic and ultimately from Proto-Indo-European. Latin was spoken throughout West and the East and in the British Isles for over 400 years. What a treasure and patrimony! (By the way Hebrew was revived from being a sacral language to spoken use beginning in the 19th century.) I DO NOT WANT OR TRUST a made up Mass from 1970. I despise that decadent 1960's deforming generation I grew up in. Even at the time I thought something crazy was going on. The Kumbaya guitar strumming trashers and smashers of statues, altar, confessionals as iconoclasts. Their thinking has facilitated the bland sterile contraceptive, easy divorce, easy aborting carnal self absorbed mentality which seeks to euthanized the Gospel like they do their parents to get the possessions and then themselves. Catholics are complicit in the secularisation and debasing of our times. Have we learnt nothing ftom Communism and the terrible mass murdering National Socialists who were very modern? I saw the spoilt post war generation in action as I was born in 1961.The post war generation were and are compromised. Enough! The Church didn't start in 1965 It is integral to all the West is and is a guardian of all that is good and true. Read Ratzinger, Romano Guardini, Gamber, Jungman and even Bugnini concerning the liturgy and see the deforms authority pushed onto us with cruelty. The new Mass isn't the traditional Mass in the vernacular. It is a concoction with the majority of the Mass and prefaces expunged edited, redacted, stitched together. How could anyone take seriously a Mass in which new Eucharistic prayers were created? One was written in a trattoria on a paper serviette. The changes are rupture and sn't in harmony with the Vatican 2 document on the liturgy. It is cancel culture and it is plastic ticky tacky. Dress it up or down it dates from 1970. No no no. It's just wrong. The opportunity was there to cancel and the unscrupulous did it just as they load the Synod and seek to falsify the Gospel. The product of a loaded committee led by that manipulative Bugnini who was "an unctious liar" and forced upon the Church by Paul VI who was duped should be accepted and vast numbers have just walked away from the Church as they have been traumatised confused or abused in all its meanings by the Church which they loved and trusted as a mirror of Jesus Christ. Cardinals who first saw the new Mass voted against it. The document proving this is in the Flannery Vatican 2 documents. The powers in Rome are self deceiving apparatchiks pushing an agenda which has failed.
Some Parishes are just a faith tar pit that kills off faith those who migrate in from other areas. A core faithful group of gray hairs put up with it & pay the bills. Some grifters are in mix too. Dear Lord Please bring Saintly Priests & Nuns into those Parishes to run your church according to God's will.
Every Rosary, Pope has my priority even before my own parish priest and my dying aunt Michelle. I reckon they're closer to God and can afford to allow me to prioritise Your man firstly.
It's worth noting again, that progressive older priests ("boomers" as they are characterised) are the tail end of a movement with its origins long before. The Second Vatican Council began in 1962 and most of its protagonists were elderly, with sensibilities honed in WW1 and the years that followed. They may have been modernists, but were far from the swinging, groovy priests of the 1970s and decades that followed. Contemporary progressive clergy were not born until the new liturgy was already well established. They are not revolting against norms, as those are already over half a century old. It's truer to say that the church has moved on parallel lines, with each side claiming continuity.
The only reason the Latin mass appears to be more reverent is that it tends to be overwhelmingly attended by enthusiasts of that type of mass. If TLM were mandatory in all parishes, no doubt you would get the chatter and the irreverence before mass, "innovations" from priests etc. exactly the same as some ordinary form masses. It's not the form of the mass, it's where people are on their spiritual journeys that affects how they behave.
You could be right, however, prior to Vatican II, when all Masses and liturgies were in Latin, there was no talking in church; people were always silent and prayerful. We just grew up knowing that we shouldn't be talking in church. Now, of course, most people have developed bad habits that may be difficult to correct.
Help! I’ve tried to understand a word Mark used, and I can’t figure it out. He said Jesus prayed in a h_____ language. He spoke Aramaic but prayed in Hebrew. A language set aside for worship. Mark was referring to the Latin as a language of prayer and worship, I think. Sacred language, language set aside for worship. I’ve rewound a few times, used chatgpt. Can’t figure out the word. It’s around 21:00.
I deplore what the Irish Times has done. You were brave and correct to cover the Peterson/Robinson interview. Both have important things to say. I still think your coverage of Robinson - sorry, "Tommy" - is a trifle gushing and uncritical, a bit like Dr Ashenden's myopic take on Donald Trump. I love so much of Catholic Unscripted's content. Just occasionally I disagree - but not on the fundamentals. Sorry if I don't always express my disagreement with charity.
Champion the authority of God. His authority and Commandments should be recognized, deferred to, and respected....Completely oppose the error of the modernists who hold that there is nothing divine in sacred tradition. Hold the belief of the Fathers in the charism of Truth...and...not that dogma may be tailored according to what seems...suited to the culture of each age...But that: The absolute and immutable truth preached by the apostles from the beginning may never be believed to be different and may never be understood in any other way. St Pius X oro pro nobis. St Pio oro pro nobis.
Keep up the great work folks! The attack by the Irish press simply proves you are “flying over the target”! Your clarity, thoughtfulness and charity are reflected in every one of your podcasts. Make no mistakes, you are helping Catholics and prospective Catholics deepen or come to the Faith. God bless you all!!
well said......
Thank you 🙏
Add also the interminable becking, nodding and other gesturing during the Peace - it is not a flower people's 'love in'.
I hope that pressure is not brought to bear on Bishop Winkler not to host your forthcoming Conference. Sorry, not Winkler is, it - I was thinking of the chap who played Fonzie - the good Bishop, I think, plays himself.
If the Irish Times goes after you then you must be on the right track
This podcast and Gavin's have brought me back to the faith after an absence of 45 years. I will be confirmed next Easter. Love your work. Thank you ❤
That’s wonderful to hear. Thank you for sharing Suzanne 🙏 Deo gratias
Man, I love you three! God bless you and keep going!
You are among my favorite podcasters. The Irish times and their likes are a huge part of the problem.
@@fdmuaddi I agree that Catholic Unscripted is the best. Even when they disagree with each, they do it with respect.
You all are superb. Your devoted followers know that. Damn the torpedos full speed ahead!!!
Ignore the Irish Times. You guys are doing God’s work. God bless you.
I also have to wonder if liberal clergy had a hand in this article as they have no vocations.
I've been so blessed as a convert from the Episcopal Church to have access to both holy and reverent Novus Ordo Masses and Traditional Latin Masses. I've been to both this very weekend. Thanks be to God.
Amen 🙏
Yes you're lucky or blessed. My New Order sucks
The Irish Times used to be a Protestant journal, now it’s just a secular rag. Only a popular rag among the chattering left. The majority of Irish people would not even use it in the privy.
That’s complete rubbish. It’s great if you’re painting and decorating. Also, rolled up, it’s effective for swatting flies. It has numerous uses. 😊
@@Clodaghbob and fish and chips?
@@Clodaghbob 😅
@@davidmorrison2739 Ah, there’s nothing quite like the culinary excellence of oily fish and chips with lashings of malt vinegar, a gentle avalanche of salt, and all wrapped up in the Opinions section of the Irish Times. That’s a quality meal right there! 🤣😂🤣😂
Years ago The Irish Times was the newspaper of the Anglo-Irish Protestant ascendancy. With the collapse of traditional Protestantism, it’s become another woke newspaper like the Guardian or the NY Times.
As Katherine said, 'If you speak the truth. you're going to be attacked'.
Ireland is in a bad way, may the Lord remember mercy in His judgement.
Great work. The three of you have helped me enormously and I am on the way to crossing the Tiber. God Bless ❤✝
Well said Mark.
Mark: so eloquent. This whole episode really.
On RUclips: Catholic Unscripted 15.1K subscribers.....Irish Times 13.8K subscribers
I agree with Katherine. Bring back the TLM.
Gentlemen, and ma'am thank you so much for your intelligent discussions.
I came to the conclusion last year that I will no longer attend the Novus Ordo Missae because of the disrespect shown to the Blessed Sacrament by the distribution of Holy Communion in the hand and the use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. The only men who have any right to distribute the Blessed Sacrament and even touch the Sacred vessels at public celebrations of the Mass are those who have consecrated hands. Receiving the Blessed Sacrament in the hand is a violation of Catholic practice and tradition that even Pope Paul VI was always opposed to. The practice of receiving the Blessed Sacrament in the hand is a Protestant practice that was intended by the Protestant Revolutionaries to diminish belief in the Doctrine of Transubstantiation.
Here's my solution and what I do for attending a new Mass, because family (>1/2 don't want to go to a Vetus Ordo).
Go to it, it's usually going to be pretty acceptable so you can usually partake of it, if that is so.
Communion time, wait till the line at the priest is nearly done go queue up and receive as you would sans indult.
I try and avoid any interesting "no not this way my son" situations by wording up Father before hand, not receiving by indult, is that cool? and they're usually going to be cool with i
But I've walked into at least 3 different non Trad churches unannounced and am glad the priests there honoured the old way of receiving the Eucharist.
The Council of Constantinople condemned the practice of communion on the tongue, defining that all parts of the body of a Christian, washed clean by the waters of Baptism, are equally clean and that Our Lord said to his disciples “TAKE and eat” (not stick out your tongue and let me put a bit of bread there). The reason for the introduction of communion on the tongue was that, by the Middle Ages, when everyone was nominally Christian, there were those receiving communion who were not, in fact, Christians and they would attend Mass and take away the host for use in pagan or satanic ceremonies. This can be avoided today by the Priest ensuring that he sees every communicant placing the host in his mouth. The practice of communion in the hand is the practice of the early Church and follows the simple command of Our Lord “take and eat”.
I enjoy your podcasts. However, please give Dr. Ashenden more time to speak.
Thank you all🙏
My only issue with the Novus Ordo is when someone is singing during Communion, it is a distraction from my time with Jesus.
I totally agree with you. Having received the Body of Christ, I would like to have a few silent minutes of adoration left to me, but in France, most churches have Communion hymns.
I agree.
I need the silence to offer my prayers of thanksgiving.
Our schola sings Gregorian chant softly during Holy Communion at our TLM. It’s beautiful and edifying and not a distraction at all.
There is a social club aspect to Mass attendance for some people. The sign of peace ending when everyone within sight has had their hand shaken, for example. One of our priests has omitted the sign entirely, as a distraction. Many years ago when I left the faith for the dubious delights of The World, one of the identifying characteristics of the young people who stayed was the extent to which the Church was their social life. They would have entertained any innovation, I felt, as long as it offered the opportunity to chat with friends. The terrible buildings and awful music of the time, summed up the mood. Baby and bathwater in my case. The suspension of time and space deserve better.
It seems to me a major problem is that people seem to have forgotten that Mass is about worshipping God / the sacrifice at Calvary. It should not be about entertaining the congratulation. It is not about you, but God. That is why TLM is superior, not the language per se because if all they did was a translation of the tlm things would much different now. The NO's focus, whether it was intentional or not, is too grounded and thus too tied to current trends/what the people (allegedly) want. If I had the choice, if they were more available, I would only attend tlms. As it is, I go to my local NO.
In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen
Yes indeed that is correct🎚️🙏
I love you guys to death. Keep up the good work! Peepee on the Irish Times.
Thank you.
Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. One of the many benefits of moving to France in the eighties was putting some kilometres between myself and the Irish media... Irish Independent also, and of course RTE, rarely watch them today. If they did a hit piece regarding your upcoming visit, you're honoured, you must be doing something that irritates the poor things.
The mundanity found in so many churches today is not so much an indication of where people are on their ‘faith journey’, as an indication of the absence of the in-dwelling Holy Spirit. I am less generous than Mark, bless you all!
One reason why you see more reverence at the TLM is because the people inclined toward that mass are already pious and looking for that type of reverence when they attend mass.
We have reached those times described in 2 Timothy 4:3 _For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears_
This is more prevalent in the West where Catholicism has familiarized Christian that faith has to be tuned up to modernity and that's possible because God provided them with an infallible the Roman Pontiff. A concept that orthodoxy is resisting to although unfortunately there is some contamination since severy orthodox nations are trapped in the western order and its global indoctrination.
Lord have mercy on us all sinners.☦️
People convert / revert because you are prepared to say out loud what people know in their hearts to be true. We have been gaslit by the secular world for so long. It’s no surprise that a bit of affirmation gives people the courage to do what they know is right.
I attend a Sunday 8:30am Low Mass in English, with the priest ad orientem to a smaller, separate altar positioned foreward of the high altar. It’s basically a trimmed version of the Traditional Latin Low Mass in English, reverently officiated and reverently received.
However, there is no doubt in my mind that the TLM operates differently - it literally brings to the table something, an unfolding holiness that enfolds you, (if you are attentive to it) that is missing in anything else. Maybe that is why it has been attacked over the years - because that event in that format is the most holiest experience known to man?
A great discussion thank you.
I really liked what Katherine said in response to
"I don't get TLM I can't access it"
Katherine's response went something like:
"......we as a people have been changed by the culture we have since the reformation and Enlightenment and French revolution"
This is so true and brilliantly and perfectly put I didn't write everything she said but ut is all exactly what I experience when I go to TLM. The reverence, power, beauty and enchantment is overwhelming and as she said its like NOTHING outside the church door it's a timelessness that is so profoundly needed and I think the ÿoung (God bless them) are intuitively finding it.
I go to a very reverent NO Mass and I love my fellow parishioners but I only go there because there isn't a TLM near me.
Subscribed from your presentation at the CIC.😊
If you go to Chicago again please go to S. John Cantius. They have several beautiful TLM.
The Irish times are probably mad at us because we don't buy their paper!
If it’s not right, walk away. Mark, thats the best thing you have said all day!
Thank you Katherine, Gavin and Mark, our former President has done a ' Henry VIII ' on the Catholic Church in Ireland. She was once a defender of the Faith but has become a militant feminist, denying the Sanctity of human life from conception to natural death. ' Marriage' for Homosexuals and who knows buying and selling Babies for such couples is perfectly okay. She has lost The Faith and should move on to churches that allows all sorts. Keep up the good work of putting Jesus Christ in the forefront of all us who wish to be a true follower of The Way.❤
Another generation and all will be well with the Irish Church. The majority of young priests/seminarians are orthodox. Thank God.
I think the Latin takes us beyond the ordinariness of the vernacular and puts us in a real beyond our ordinary daily life. It connects us with a universal tradition that unites us with Peter and situates us in a milieu that unites us with Heaven since the Mass is participated in by by both the faithful in Heaven and the faithful here on earth. The holiness is in the person rather than in the language but the Latin language, unspoken today, is spoken by the Church unifying all languages in the act of conveying holiness in the worship of God.
WE are ALL called to be Humble, Holy, and Prayerful. In other words ALL of us are called to be Saints
The NO accommodates irreverence, the TLM does not. And it’s amazing how spiritually stale the NO can be while how spiritually fresh the TLM is.
I don’t understand how anyone could criticize Larry Chapp. He’s brilliant and the discussion you had with him was illuminating. Please don’t apologize for him or try to explain him.
Mark, “whatever floats your boat” had me going way off the path. (I get what you’re saying, but there’s a downside.) I think many Catholics don’t understand what’s going on even with the NO and a folk mass. We just don’t know enough. I’ve done it all. Had many home masses. Did the folk mass thing. I want to go back to the mystery and transcendent. You know what gives me hope? The many Hispanic immigrants in my parish who show true reverence at their Spanish masses and Adoration. Reverence in how they dress, their gestures, and body posture. It’s obvious that this reverence was modeled for them. They embraced it. Worship.
Many Irish live in Croatia 🇭🇷 Medugorje now because if the state of Ireland.
As an aside, I live 5 time zones west of the UK, today I am traveling in a different part of the United States and I am now 7 times from the UK. Since public transportation is scarce on Sunday, I went to the nearest Catholic Church, it a cultural different, but it was still a valid Mass. A young girl was baptized at Mass.
I was at a NO Mass recently and the lady in the pew behind was audibly praying the priest's words at the consecration. Turns out she was a Eucharistic minister who went up and was offering the chalice.
🫤 I think there is a real misunderstanding of how to “participate” in the “priesthood of Christ,” which isn’t surprising because I don’t think it’s been really explained to the laity…
Holiness and universalism is found in greater quantities from within the Traditional liturgy. Validity is a low bar!
As an orthodox I agree. The form is the meaning.
Dr Larry Chappe is exactly right about holiness. Dr Mark's words sround 19 minutes today are spot on too as are Gavin's later.
I hope you keep on the 'middle road' as there are too many extremes these days. I love the TLM and the NO when the NO is said as it should be. Very few parishes do it correctly though.
I took a young woman to a NO for her 1st Mass recently and the creed and Gloria was in Latin. She loved the Latin as it lifted her soul!
Whst we have to remember there were abuses going on pre vatican II too. My relative is a priest and said both Masses reverently. At 27.50 mins onwards you are exactly right Mark! Keep on that right road please. Yes Taizé chant is good too. I was surprised when my relative priest said that too. Thank you .
When I found you was great help as I am struggling what pope is doing and here in Australia didn't hear one person who would speak up only hear you have to respect office of pope, so keep doing good work as I find it painful how godless people bullying and lie all the time
Katherine many of those people who 'arent being fed' aren't aware of that and wouldnt be affected by attendkng a TLM. It's about Faith and lack of it and lack of grace.
Pray for priests fervently. Many struggle.
Don’t worry. The Irish Times appeals only to a certain liberal elite, mostly in the more affluent areas of south Dublin. It is borderline anti Catholic. I used to read it a lot. I always knew it was a bit biased but it has become much more extreme in the last five years. It does not represent the rest of Ireland.
Borderline? That's an understatement lol
@@spykezspykez7001 Well no-one can accuse me of exaggerating, now can they?! 🤪👍
Love your podcast.I think the Sacred Words ,especially in the Canon of the Holy Sacrafice are the most important things that should never be tampered with, except from the Pope.
Especially do I notice the words " Benedicit", or " Blessed it", omitted in the Novus Ordo Cosecration.The ancient meaning of this word is " consecrate".
i agree the ambiguity of this papacy is very concerning. i find this papacy roams more with secular opinion than the real and true of what a papacy is called to do.
The Mass is BOTH a Sacrifice and a Banquet. In the Old Testament the three parts of a sacrifice were first the preparation of the sacrificial victim, second the actual sacrifice of the victim, and thirdly the consuming of the victim, each part integral and essential to the others. The Mass contains all three parts. The Mass isn't ONLY a sacrifice, it also involves the consuming of the sacrifice in Holy Communion.
Catherine fantastic truth!
Absolutely agree with Katherine. I attend the TLM here in Lyon, and occasionally the N.O when I'm on holidays, back in Ireland and so on. I know it's not a case of "the NO crowd are like that..... but we're like this" it's not simple. I have to say, however, that in my experience, and I emphasise MY EXPERIENCE, worshippers at the TLM will stay in the Church when Mass has ended, no chatting. There is definitely a quietness when you enter TLM Church, I have observed that lot of people tend to be very casual and talkative before and after the NO Mass. Don't get me wrong, I go quite happily to the NO Mass, it's not an obsession with me. I have to add also that certain "delicate" ethical issues seem to find their way into a TLM sermon as opposed to a NO sermon, the more "traditional" Priests don't seem to be afraid to lay it on the line, that's my experience in any case, might not be everyone's. Let's be friendly and exchange views politely, people seem to get very uptight when the TLM is mentioned, like the guy Dr Ashenden encountered, typically. Anyway, thanks for your great work folks.
The language of poetry changes, and its purposes also sometimes. You constantly see new translations of Latin, Greek and Chinese poetry, which bring their achievements to new hearers, achievements of emotion, thought and experience that have value for us today. As with the language of worship.
Somethings that we value today are not exactly orthodox.
The Tridentine Mass isn’t about language, it’s about theology.
I attend the TLM and also the "unicorn" reverent Novus Ordo as recommended by Vatican II documents, not the "spirit" of Vatican II. So I do have sympathy for Larry Chapp's statement that "holiness" will save the world, not "Latin". I'm grateful that my daily experience of the Mass is reverent whether TLM or the "unicorn" Novus Ordo, but realize many Novus Ordo parishes haven't maintained the level of dignity that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the foretaste of Heaven as gifted from God, should have.
There is a little book of lectures by Christine Mohrmann (sp) on Ecclesiastic Latin. She points out that the language used by the Church was never a form that the general public understood. There is a role for Holy Languages that is not understood by professional liturgists.
I suppose that one’s view of the Latin language is, as with most things, based on our own experience. By the time I started studying Latin at school, the Mass was in English. Our Latin teacher was not a Catholic and had great contempt for “Church Latin” - he insisted upon the classical pronunciation. We translated such works as “De Bello Gallico” and poetry by Horace etc. So, my experience of the Latin language is of a rather down to earth language - accounts by Julius Caesar of how he constructed siege works etc or arrangements for paying his legions. Then, at University, I studied Law. While Gavin petitioned for less Property Law, I should have preferred more, with all of the attendant Latin and Norman French. Once again, rather down to earth - the common action “Quare clausum fregit” simply means “because he broke into my property”. Littleton on Tenures, written almost a thousand years ago, is written in Latin. The commentary by Coke is in Norman French. So, my own experience of Latin is not of a sacred language. Then prescriptions - when I was a boy, the Doctor still scribbled them down in Latin. The labels typed up by the Chemist even had “nocte” rather than “at night”. However, Hebrew sounds a very holy language.
A disciple in love with Christ will naturally tend to focus on Him during any liturgy. Its similar to what happens in any romance; one can be in the midst of a carnival and find it difficult to hear the crowd because one is completely focused on that one voice. But I suppose that the disciple who needs the most conducive ambiance is most deprived by impious liturgies. The devil is really like a lion, as scripture says. Looking for easy prey. There is (evil) method to the demise of reverent liturgy.
Great work and much appreciated! Katherine's recounting of her experience in Church particularly struck a cord with me as I have struggled with feeling judgmental and sinful when I would have to attend a Mass in a church where people were 'gathering' as if they were getting together at a social event. I generally avoid those churches and am very blessed to live in an area where the TLM is not only available but several churches have very reverent, sacred Norvus Ordo Masses. I am not particularly a proponent of TLM because of the opportunity to attend reverent Novus Ordo Masses and growing up with Latin Masses, Latin is not a 'foreign' language to me. What I discovered is, it's not the language at all but whether the Mass is God-centered or people centered. The hijackers of Vatican II most evidently lacked any relationship to God because to approach Calvary, enter into the presence of God, one must be humbled or one has missed the point. The incarnation, our redemption, becoming a child of God and having been given the gift of eternal life can but cast us to our knees in reverence and thanksgiving!
I also have seen as Katherine did, that the people who prefer this communal gathering celebration are what I have called the 'gray hairs'. It is painful to admit, but it is my generation that has largely pushed for all the changes in Church doctrine and worship. Historically, I can only ponder the result of war; Our Blessed Mother came to Fatima during WWI and warned of a greater war to come if we did not repent and pray. She performed a miracle for all to see, believers and non-believers but people failed to respond. Indeed, we entered into the Roaring 20's where licentiousness and greed were rampant. After WWII, we entered another era of prosperity and greed. I do not know if previous generations were consciously seeking wealth and pleasure because they felt owed by the sacrifices made during the war, were led down that path by a desire to forget the hardships of the war, or had already begun to abandon a relationship with od because of feeling abandoned by Him in the advent of war but it seems to me that the generational shift after the wars produced much of the erosion of traditional values we must now deal with.
It is more than a loss of the sacred, it is the failure to acknowledge our dependence on God and our failure to live by His Divine plan. Why did we not repent and pray after the miracle of Fatima? I suspect in most people's minds, they were not personally guilty of grave sins, rather, as Pope Francis is trying to do with the 'penitential rite',, the guilt lies in corporations, other groups that disparage the land, and 'tribal' conflicts. Without repentance there can be no metanoia, without metanoia, we are divorced from God and His life-giving Spirit and without God, the Mass is meaningless so it must be redirected to a 'gathering' of the community. Without a relationship with Our Lord, it makes no difference in what language the Mass is recited, whether the priest faces the altar or the people it will always be a noisy, social gathering of the godless who are desperately trying to fill the void with frivolity. As St. Paul warned us, without love which can only come from a deep relationship with Jesus, we afe but noisy gongs!
Well said Mark, its holiness not Latin.
I love the TLM. I can also and do love for the majority of the time the NOM that I attend daily.
It’s my love for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, which is the only person that matters.
It doesn’t matter that you can’t understand the Latin in the Mass. The priest is praying to God in a sacred language - we are there to worship God not to be entertained
Learn the language or at least the translations, in order to participate in the Mass.
The closest to accessing the holiness of the Mass outside the Latin Mass seems to be illustrated in the Ordinariate rite. There are all the prayers at the foot of the Altar and always uses the Roman Canon all in a holy type of vernacular.
The disappearance of the organ ( the organist, I guess), good choirs with a choir master ( the most suitable priest in the parish taking this role- just not enough priests any more), local schools and music teachers training young voices in brilliant hymns, English and Latin, and of course the sung Latin Mass…the disappearance or wilful destruction of these elements have brought us to the junking of the sacraments and the faith itself. Imagine RUclips channels being a place to go to for hope and inspiration! But it is, and I’m grateful for your channel.
The struggle between the Irish Catholic Church and the Government of Ireland has had phase after phase but it’s clear that the history is dark as well as light. Agree with Mark: only to be expected.
Frui in Latin means joy and so the fruits of anything is the joy it brings
Don't buy the Irish Times, their crossword is it only good thing. Love the 'don't throw stones' comment Mark.
I agree. I do their crosswords because you can pick up a free copy in any public library. The rest of it is woke rubbish.
You all made excellent points about the TLM but for some reason did not make the following two obvious points. One, the Latin language was used originally for a very practical catholic reason. You can download a translation if you don’t have a missal or it isn’t available in the church. Two, the NO is very truncated. Also, the FSSP priests are very strong on catechism because they are particularly concerned for our souls. See you tomorrow!
I remember the beauty of the Latin mass from childhood, a treasure more valuable than the Sistine Chapel. but where to access it now I live in Bristol UK. .....It seems to be a guarded secret... very unCatholic to keep this from the laity...
There’s an SSPX centre in Bristol …TLM every day, I do believe … look ‘em up good priests, good sense of liturgical propriety and beauty …
@@AlasPoorEngland ....I'm in your debt, Sincerely
@@johnraymond-barker524 Cheers! Talking of the West of England, there was a TLM Mass at Glastonbury Abbey about 3/4 weeks ago, said by Fr. Peter Morgan, who is actually ex-SSPX, but who was ordained by the Archbishop … I went, it was wonderful … all blessings!
People don't chatter before Mass (Novus Ordo or Vetus Ordo) at my parish, the Bournemouth Oratory. They gather in silence and prayer. It can be done, regardless of whether it's NO or VO. The priests need to catechise and imbue a spirit and culture of reverence in their flock. But I know I'm lucky to be in a parish like the Bournemouth Oratory.
My guitar is somethwhere in my house. I got tired of the 60s. When 'accessibility' trumps transcendence, poetry becomes 'useful' words; timeless is retired as nostalgia. I'm not comfortable with TLM, but the grace I get is like being slapped silly. To me, God seems to be saying, hang on a sec.
It's not just that the Catholic church in its current form fails to keep Catholics once they reach adulthood, it's also the fact that the secular world from the 1960s on was so appealing and so easy to live in. Novus Ordo or Latin Mass, I can see how many of my generation left the faith because it was basically perceived as a relic of the past even in Novus Ordo form because... who needs religion anymore, right? You have to bear in mind that particular time in history post WW2 and the cultural changes that took place. Now young ones are seeing that the secular world is not all it's cracked up to be with the current changes taking place (sex before marriage is one thing but transgenderism for example is something that even non-religious people have issues with) and they are now seeking the faith once more in an attempt to find meaning and get society back on track. I often discuss this with people, did the Novus Ordo drive people away from the Church? Not entirely in my opinion because I think it was going to happen anyway but I do think the Latin Mass is bringing quite a lot of them back. Love your content, thank you all for your time and effort and keep up the good work :)
The I T are the pits. There is not a day goes by, but they do some kind of hit piece on the Catholic Church.
Just continue to tell the truth, despite the propaganda used against you.
Regarding Ex Operatis or whatever it was Mark said: The Holy Spirit will be, when he hears the Eucharist spoken, looking for a sinner and will not be surprised when he finds one.
I feel like there’s a major lack of understand about the Mass itself The priest offers the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass; our role as laity is to offer and unite our prayers with the priest’s toward the last four ends of the Mass…..Adoration, Thanksgiving, imploring Gods grace and mercy upon us and appeasing Gods righteousness anger against sins and grievous offenses against Him. The TLM is in itself focuses exactly on this Even back to the Old Testament, we have this example of Moses who offered the prayers and sacrifices for the people🙏✝️✝️✝️
We use special vocabularies all the time - think of a Jam session where the players pick up a phrase from another and carry it along and build upon it. We do not - I hope - teach regional vernacular in schools and pupils and parents would not, I expect expect it. Mundane language is used for purposes associated with entropy and is polluted with and indeed brought into existence by ideas associated with plots, stratagems and spoils. The need for a sacred language is the same as that for sacred scripture and we see how contemporary treatments ruin everything from Mallory to Gilbert and Sullivan.
Gavin stole my words about the IT 😅 blatant hypocrites who up to PF have disliked and criticised every single pope.
Thank you for an exchange that was very interesting, as usual. However, could you please explain to the French speaker that I am what a "Eucharistic bear" is??? Thank you so much for your reply !
La ourse Eucharistique, peut etre?
@@Mark3ABE which is to say ???
@@GenevieveLheureux-ch5zv Je ne sais pas.
If in doubt, walk out!
One thing is the objective reality/validity of the Mass, the other is the subjective fruits (or lack thereof) that can be gained from a priest who is sloppy or irreverent in the (valid) celebration.
It's lack of teaching, current culture as well ss poor liturgy that is the problem.
I was born Catholic, went to mass, didn't understand Catholic until by the grace of God fell into a Trad crowd.
What struck me were the books (missal, kyriales, bibles) looked very Catholic, the church looked *very* Catholic like you see in those 60's films and the atmos and the people there, the smells of candle wax and incense... Very Catholic.
I felt I was going home.
If dying is even 2x better than this, I'd settle!
The irish slimeytimes would do well to remember judge not lest ye be judged.
Greetings Dear Friends.
Great good positioning by Marc on TLM and NO-mass. Both, not either or.
But, I do sense there is a definite "bigger" insistance on and in a pentential spirit in the TLM than in the NO mass, wouldn't you agree?
I personally love that but I can clearly see why that is maybe the greatest stumblingblock for all progresivists....That and the kind of "upward" hierarchical bent in all the liturgical very vested movements of priests being accompanied from behind by young altar slave-like-boys obeying anticipatedly every gesture...I do see how TLM defies at all times the progressive "orgeuil" of all absolute autonomy striving of a very definite horizontalist egalitarian unending aspiration. I love that they must feel chastised by it, and that it will always be an insulting hurdle to them. But, that sounds vengeful, doesn't?
And I should also add, as a comprehension of the "oponent" that all the lacy stuff under the vestimenta and the akward skullcap on the priests head when he is preaching from the pulpit, it really projects you back in time in an eery, unconfortable way, which tends to create somewhat of an unreal bubble feeling one comes out of forlorn on the street again, nostalgically crushed and at the same time relieved there is now also the NO-liturgy around the Last Súper table...
I do prefer a very deep piety in a NO celebration, accompanied buy the great choral latín music, as in the sunday celebrations of Paris Notre Dame parish, now held at the Saint Germain l'auxerrois Church in front of the Louvre.Very thoughtful homelies, deep reverential Spirit plus a modern but modest "openess" to the world...a great wise equilibrium.
Not Pope Francis, Pope Benedict XVI.
It is not difficult to understand, follow and integrate the traditional Mass. There are weekly pamphlets or a book which have both Latin and English as well as the readings which are read out in English as well as on the sheet to be read. The bodily gestures, such as kneeling, genuflecting, keeping silent, Holy Communion kneeling on the tongue (or standing if unable to kneel) and focusing on God are authentically respectful. When I travel overseas I try and understand as well as appreciate the culture customs and language of other lands. In the same way Christianity should ge approached with a thirst for knowledge and understanding in order to comprehend the world, ourselves and others in relation to God. Jesus Christ came into this world in the past...2000 years ago and it seems obvious we don't cancel the past or period in between or trash the treasures others took great care to pass on to us. I allow myself to be enculturated by Christian culture that has been handed down. I do not want cultural dementia. As a Western Christian the traditional liturgy is my heritage and cultural link with the apostles in the West. It is holy for my ancestors and for me too. Many have died defending the traditional Mass rather than see it distorted by abuses or falsities. The Latin language is ancient, unifying and foundational. It rests upon Etruscan, Oscan, ancient Greek, Proto-Italic and ultimately from Proto-Indo-European. Latin was spoken throughout West and the East and in the British Isles for over 400 years. What a treasure and patrimony! (By the way Hebrew was revived from being a sacral language to spoken use beginning in the 19th century.) I DO NOT WANT OR TRUST a made up Mass from 1970. I despise that decadent 1960's deforming generation I grew up in. Even at the time I thought something crazy was going on. The Kumbaya guitar strumming trashers and smashers of statues, altar, confessionals as iconoclasts. Their thinking has facilitated the bland sterile contraceptive, easy divorce, easy aborting carnal self absorbed mentality which seeks to euthanized the Gospel like they do their parents to get the possessions and then themselves. Catholics are complicit in the secularisation and debasing of our times. Have we learnt nothing ftom Communism and the terrible mass murdering National Socialists who were very modern? I saw the spoilt post war generation in action as I was born in 1961.The post war generation were and are compromised. Enough! The Church didn't start in 1965 It is integral to all the West is and is a guardian of all that is good and true. Read Ratzinger, Romano Guardini, Gamber, Jungman and even Bugnini concerning the liturgy and see the deforms authority pushed onto us with cruelty. The new Mass isn't the traditional Mass in the vernacular. It is a concoction with the majority of the Mass and prefaces expunged edited, redacted, stitched together. How could anyone take seriously a Mass in which new Eucharistic prayers were created? One was written in a trattoria on a paper serviette. The changes are rupture and sn't in harmony with the Vatican 2 document on the liturgy. It is cancel culture and it is plastic ticky tacky. Dress it up or down it dates from 1970. No no no. It's just wrong. The opportunity was there to cancel and the unscrupulous did it just as they load the Synod and seek to falsify the Gospel. The product of a loaded committee led by that manipulative Bugnini who was "an unctious liar" and forced upon the Church by Paul VI who was duped should be accepted and vast numbers have just walked away from the Church as they have been traumatised confused or abused in all its meanings by the Church which they loved and trusted as a mirror of Jesus Christ. Cardinals who first saw the new Mass voted against it. The document proving this is in the Flannery Vatican 2 documents. The powers in Rome are self deceiving apparatchiks pushing an agenda which has failed.
Where can we watch the Catholic Identity Conference talks?
Some Parishes are just a faith tar pit that kills off faith those who migrate in from other areas. A core faithful group of gray hairs put up with it & pay the bills. Some grifters are in mix too. Dear Lord Please bring Saintly Priests & Nuns into those Parishes to run your church according to God's will.
CHY NA! Init.
Folks please pray for poor Francis
Every Rosary, Pope has my priority even before my own parish priest and my dying aunt Michelle. I reckon they're closer to God and can afford to allow me to prioritise Your man firstly.
It's worth noting again, that progressive older priests ("boomers" as they are characterised) are the tail end of a movement with its origins long before. The Second Vatican Council began in 1962 and most of its protagonists were elderly, with sensibilities honed in WW1 and the years that followed. They may have been modernists, but were far from the swinging, groovy priests of the 1970s and decades that followed. Contemporary progressive clergy were not born until the new liturgy was already well established. They are not revolting against norms, as those are already over half a century old. It's truer to say that the church has moved on parallel lines, with each side claiming continuity.
The only reason the Latin mass appears to be more reverent is that it tends to be overwhelmingly attended by enthusiasts of that type of mass. If TLM were mandatory in all parishes, no doubt you would get the chatter and the irreverence before mass, "innovations" from priests etc. exactly the same as some ordinary form masses. It's not the form of the mass, it's where people are on their spiritual journeys that affects how they behave.
You could be right, however, prior to Vatican II, when all Masses and liturgies were in Latin, there was no talking in church; people were always silent and prayerful.
We just grew up knowing that we shouldn't be talking in church.
Now, of course, most people have developed bad habits that may be difficult to correct.
No! you really would not get that, you're too cynical yet not realistic.
Help! I’ve tried to understand a word Mark used, and I can’t figure it out. He said Jesus prayed in a h_____ language. He spoke Aramaic but prayed in Hebrew. A language set aside for worship. Mark was referring to the Latin as a language of prayer and worship, I think. Sacred language, language set aside for worship. I’ve rewound a few times, used chatgpt. Can’t figure out the word. It’s around 21:00.
Hieratic
@@thomasedmund6376 Thank you. Thrown off because when I searched that term initially, it referred to Egyptian hieroglyphics.
I deplore what the Irish Times has done. You were brave and correct to cover the Peterson/Robinson interview. Both have important things to say. I still think your coverage of Robinson - sorry, "Tommy" - is a trifle gushing and uncritical, a bit like Dr Ashenden's myopic take on Donald Trump. I love so much of Catholic Unscripted's content. Just occasionally I disagree - but not on the fundamentals. Sorry if I don't always express my disagreement with charity.
Champion the authority of God. His authority and Commandments should be recognized, deferred to, and respected....Completely oppose the error of the modernists who hold that there is nothing divine in sacred tradition. Hold the belief of the Fathers in the charism of Truth...and...not that dogma may be tailored according to what seems...suited to the culture of each age...But that: The absolute and immutable truth preached by the apostles from the beginning may never be believed to be different and may never be understood in any other way. St Pius X oro pro nobis. St Pio oro pro nobis.
You must have a referential respect for the Holy Mass you don't go to Mass for a chat.
So it's the Orthodox Divine Liturgy you're after then? ☦☦☦☦☦☦☦