Blacksmith Blower Rebuild: Part 2 - Machining Cast Iron Gear Blanks
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- Опубликовано: 12 июл 2024
- In this second part of the series, we will take some cast iron discs and machine gear blanks for the larger spur gears to be used in the blacksmith blower restoration.
Great work Keith, always a joy to watch.
Cheers, John
Zone1242 Thank you John!
A real display of technical skill and artistry!!! What I find most impressive is your problem solving in regards making the mandrell/arbour. The chuck jaws were in the way, so you quickly came up with a clever method around the problem. I think that type of problem/solution process is where the true mastery of engineering comes in. I was certain the assembly was going to slip, yet it spun perfectly and while I think I maybe saw a little bit of smoke from the washer right at the start it seemed to bed down and hardly slip again. Excellent!!!
Please keep up the good work. I enjoy watching these videos very much and I think even though I am less than a novice I am learning some techniques and - perhaps more importantly - ways to approach problems.
+morelenmir Thanks for the kind words. Half of being a good machinist is being able to figure out how to hold your work. Sometimes you spend more time making a jig or fixture to hold a job than you do actually doing the job!
Man oh man! That tool post is close to those chuck jaws!
vajake1 Who cares as long as its not hitting it.
Well.... Me for one. I care because it is really dangerous and not a preferred shop method. I think that the gear blank could have been "packed" out from the chuck jaws and machined closer to the tool post as apposed to having the jaws run so close to the tool post. Alternatively the gear blank could have been mounted on an arbor and turned between centers as well.
vajake1 I have no problem running close to the chuck. I don't know if it got caught on camera, but I swung the chuck around before turning on the lathe so that I knew it would pass and so I would know what my clearance was.
No, you did not manually turn the chuck to see if it would have clearance during the video. You did say in the video that you had clearance. I was just struck by how close the jaws were to the tool post. I have seen this same thing in other machining videos and my posterior nearly always rips the upholstery of my chair when I see that! My only point is that it is dangerous to both the lathe and the operator. If you watch closely you will see many lathes have been damaged by the spinning chuck, or something held in the chuck, not to mention injuries to hands, fingers, faces and eyes. I mean no disrespect to anyone.
Another great video Keith, I can't fathom how some one could give a thumbs down on this video. Any real man would love to learn how to cut and make his own gear's. Keep up the good work you are a rock star.
Ryan Oros Not to worry about the thumbs down. Probably some no-life loser troll living in his momma's basement.
Ryan Oros I stopped worrying about the thumbs down a long time ago. Who knows what makes people do that. I am pretty sure I have a couple of "fans" who subscribe to my channel only to give my videos a thumbs down for who knows what reason.
keith great job looking forward to part 2.bob
Robert Kutz Check back this coming Friday - I should have the next one posted then!
Great series.
I love watching your videos, I am a PLC Controls Engineer, also in my past journey man machine electrician, and work as a maintenance technician. In all my working days I had the chance to play around in the tool room leaning from others, so I understand all what you are doing
This is another fascinating video. You are a good teacher and have the gift of clarity in your explanations. I enjoy all of your work, but frankly I don't comment a lot because I feel a bit bad that you take time to reply to so many and I do not want to increase your overhead! But please be assured that your videos are very much appreciated!
Arlyn Smith Thank you Arlyn - I do appreciate your commenting though!
I loved watching how you made these gears!
You gave me a startle when you sped up the bit while cutting the threads. Thought you went all kamikaze for a second or two there.
Good work, and as always, it's a pleasure to watch and listen to you work.
Perius What do you mean speeding it up? That is the speed I always work at! Sometimes I wish that were the case, but I figure there is no reason to force you guys to sit through the long boring parts at normal speed......
GOOD JOB. I'M SURPRISED HOW WELL BEHAVED THE CAST IRON WAS. FOR SOME REASON I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE HARD TO MACHINE.
ROBERT HORNER I machine cast iron a lot and generally it is one of my favorite materials to work with. Some people hate it, but I don't know why. Generally speaking, it machines well.
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org one word -DUST.Cast iron produces fine dust that sticks to everything ,including your nose and lungs if you don't wear respirator.And its pain in ass to clean.
Other than that its good material for parts that are not under impact,since cast iron is rather brittle, not like glass but it doesn't like impacts much.
Straight cut, billet 4130 chro-moly steel gear. That one wont fail:) Looking forward to see the finish...Nice single pointing, by the way. Great wholesome video.
Nevermind, that ain't 4130. Is that ductile iron? 19:45
fla playa The large gears are made from ductile cast iron. The smaller pinion gears were made from 4130.
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org Very nice machining. I think I understand why ductile iron is the material used. If it were to hard it would wear the driven gear. Idk tho.
Just awesome work.
Glad to see this project move along a leap. Thanks for sharing it.
John Strange Thanks John - more videos on the way with this project......
my fav job at collage sir thanks you for helping
Great video Keith I look forward to the next episode .It is always nice on a restoration to make it look as close as possible to the original. Some cannot be bothered to do that but I am glad you take the time to do so. regards from the UK
Thanks Keith. Interesting project.
On a side note, excellent work with the high speed and fades. Your editing just keeps getting better and I'm learning that from you on top of the metal working. :)
Terry Talton Thanks - I am still earning the editing part of this myself and I pick up a new trick here and there....
Hi mate.
Those gears are looking good, nice machining.
Marcel.
Marcel Timmers Thanks - the project is coming right along!
you make it look easy Keith, great show, really enjoyed it, Thanks!
Rick L Thanks Rick!
Good stuff Keith can't wait to see the finished product and how it works
Colin Samms The project is coming right along - hope to have it all finished real soon!
Hi; That resin material is probably a product called Micarta. It is still available and would be in my opinion better than delrin for the application. It soaks in some lube and is surprisingly durable.
We interrupt your normal boring broadcast to bring you another amazing video by Keith Rucker.
No seriously Since discovering Keiths videos about 3 weeks ago I have made it my mission to watch them all and thus leaving my self no time for mindless tv shows its become a talking point between my friends now too, as when they use the PC in the workshop all they see on youtube is suggestions for keith Ha even after searching for heavy metal the next suggested video was casting one by you guessed it!
Terrence Arnold-Smith Too funny! I have found that I never watch TV any more. I bet I have not sat down in front of the TV for over a month now. If it was not for my wife and kids watching it, I would probably just get rid of it. Probably not though as I can watch RUclips on the TV now as well and it is really nice watching videos on the big screen in my recliner rather than sitting in the office watching them on the computer monitor. But usually, my kids run me out of the living room when I turn on RUclips. They would rather watch mindless crap......
It's good to see this kind of work, very educational for us non-professionals, thanks.
bryan prindle Thanks Bryan!
Enjoyed that Keith, looking forward to the rest.
Shadon HKW Thanks Stan - hope to have the gears knocked out this weekend!
Great work, I am eager to see the next step. Thanks for the video.
cerberus The next part will be coming soon!
great video cant wait till part 3
David Howard I'd take part 3&4, along with a long video on the foundry, followed by some casting, its much better than TV, so a 6 hour special would set me up for the night!
David Howard The video for part 3 has been shot, just need to get it edited and uploaded. Probably will be my next Friday upload!
As always, thanks’ for taking the time to make this video! And I support this site. ~M~
Mike A Drover And thank you for watching and commenting!
Hi Keith !
Nice to see you do some mashining again !
Long to see the gear cutting ;-))
Keld Sørensen Coming Soon!!!!
Lovely to watch.
+metallitech Thanks!
I love Your videos! Very informative and great quality. ;)
Erling Weiseth Thanks for taking the time to watch!
sus videos son muy interesantes, es usted un artista.
Hi Keith,
The Resin gear you were showing is a material known as Paxolin and was made of resin bonded paper or for greater strength resin bonded cloth. This is a very strong material and was used predominantly for gears that ran fast and with metal would have been been accompanied by high noise levels the paxolin gears were very low on the noise level and lasted much longer than was originally expected. The sheets of the same material used a single sheet of resin bonded paper ( SRBP )and were used mainly as a high resistance insulator in early electronics. I would think the gears you have were originally made with resin bonded cloth for the reasons I have given.
Cheers MoK
Mo King Yes, this has been discussed a good bit in the comments and you will see if you watch the later videos that we ended up not using cast iron to replace this gear.
Thanks for sharing
wade hicks And thank you for watching!
I think you'll find the plastic gear is a phenolic/fabric gear. They were developed shortly after the invention of phenolic plastics (Bakelite) in the early 1900s. Used for noise reduction and excessive wear in high-speed gear trains such as cam gears. They were ideal for the forge blower gearboxes!
Those are some funny looking chips for cast iron metal!
vajake1 Yes and they are joy for your lungs,cast iron produces fine dust that sticks to everything,cleaning lathe after is nightmare.Respirator is advised if you are working with cast iron on daily basis.
I tried turning a Dodge break rotor once. I got the "fine dust" and not the "short chip" like you see in this video. I kind of thought all cast iron would produce fine dust like chips! I was surprised to see these short chips.
vajake1 You have to remember that the cutter was acting like a form cutter and was taking a very wide chip. Form cutters will very often give a chip like this in all kinds of materials. It is a totally different cutting action than a normal turning cutter.
Ah! That's why the chips looked like that! Thanks for solving this mystery for me!
As always enjoyed your video. I would like to get a small lathe someday. I fool around with old machine tools and need to make parts like bushing at times. I once converted a drill press to a up right lathe to adapt a AMC 6 cylinder distributor to fit in a 235 Chevy six engine.
Chuck Small It is amazing what one can do when thy set their mind to it. Nothing wrong with using your drill press as a lathe!
Chuck Small If you want you can do line boring with a hand drill..... ;-) Imaginations has no limits.
Great video Keith, looking forward to the next. Have a good 4th of July.
Matt C.
mattcurry29 Thank you - I had a great July 4th. Spent most of the day in the shop and then a nice dinner with my family at home!
I'm inclined to agree with Mark on this one. At room temperature, the properties of Delrin and Micarta (aka Garolite) are comparable, although the phenolics have the edge in flexural strength, a good measure for gear teeth. Delrin is a delight to machine but it's a thermoplastic with a heat deflection temperature of about 250F, whereas the phenolic materials are thermosets and will not melt (but eventually degrade). I doubt that your gear box case would get too hot to touch, but it's something to think about. Garolite CE (canvas reinforced) is available it rods large enough for this gear; Garolite XX and CE are available in thick plate; both are recommended for gears. Whatever you do, I'm sure it will work just fine.
Hello Keith,
Again a great video and I am curious about how you go to make the teeth for the gears, so I'm looking forward to part 3.
Many greetings from Roel !
RoelTyros You sill get to see soon!
Hi Keith, nice setup lessons here...
Pierre
pierre beaudry Thanks Pierre! More to come on this series....
I repair printing equipment and I see this in a lot of gear reductions where one of the higher rpm / lower torque gears will be made from synthetics. I've always seen them as engineered failure points. They have their pros and cons.
+Merlin Magnus I think that the big reason they use them is noise reduction on the gear train.
+Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org That's the reason I got from B&S for the use of one in their newer engines. They said it reduced noise by a wopping 2db. All the other times I've seen machines that got locked up, it's not the keys that give, it's the teeth on those gears. It might not be the main reason but they do make a decent safety backup and limit the damage when something catastrophic happens. That B&S gear broke 15 minutes after I fired the lawnmower up the time. Never even hit anything. Replaced it with a steel one from a previous model. Been running ever since. Can't really tell the difference in noise.
Gear cutting is a painstakingly tedious task. Something that isn't shown too often on youtube. Keith Fenner cut a gear in one of his videos. I wouldn't have chowed out so much of the "dish" reliefs. They cast the gear blanks with the dished reliefs just to save material/iron at the foundry. But now they will look more original. No big deal. I hope that you are enjoying the Summer out there!
WAVETUBE84 Yeah, I considered leaving the dish out, but it does look so nice and I part of the restoration work I do at the museum is that I try to make my replacement parts as close to the original as possible, even if it cannot be seen. We try to keep things as historically accurate as possible, sometimes we take great pains to do this just because it is the correct way to do it when doing historical restoration work.
WAVETUBE84 If you do it with mill its pain in ass,since you have to divide each one for itself .The shop i was working in had a machine ,old one but it was easy.You put your blank on thorn,tight it and it spins i circle ,while other horizontal head is cutting gears.
Can a mill cut curved gears or just straight ?Cause this machine had that option too.
It's amazing all the work you have to do to make things before you can even get to making the thing you started out doing!, but amazing content for us, what with gears, foundries, casting, all coming our way! Did you get any luck with the knee on the horizontal mill so it would raise up under power?
jusb1066 I have not done anything else to the mill yet, but new springs are due here any day. Once I get the gear project finished, I am going to pull it back apart and install the new springs and hope for the best. Probably in a couple of weeks.....
Waiting for part 3...!
chijpirijimbanipum Coming soon.... Probably next Friday.....
Those gear blanks sound like just the trick for chuck back plates. Can you say how much they sell for?
The old chevy inline engines used a fiber cam gear to reduce noise, and no doubt cost since it didn't have to run against a hardened steel crank gear. The later engines were improved with an aluminum gear, perhaps a possible alternative to your fiber gear as well. I think Delrin may not be as stiff as that fiber.
Perhaps brass or bronze might work, Keith could even cast the blank.
bcbloc02 Actually, I think the Delrin will be stronger than the stuff the original was made from. It is amazing how flimsy that stuff actually is for it to have worked so well. And a common use of Delrin is indeed making gears. I considered aluminum or bronze, but one of the reasons the original material was used was to dampen noise and I think that the metal gears would not help that much at all.
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org Also Delrin or UHW are pretty self lubricating and are tougher than they look... ;-)
Hi Keith,
Just wondering if that resin gear maybe the sacrificial gear a bit like a shear key etc , better it break than something more expensive or harder to repair etc.
Since you have a few gears to cut it could be a good time to investigate the gear hobbing method ?
Excellent video as always !
Ian
ian bertenshaw I think that the purpose of that gear was for noise reduction. After doing some research, this was (and still is) pretty common.
Thanks for another great video. Looking forward to next installment. Is there a reason for using this type mandrel instead of a tapered arbor?
Morris Gallo A tapered arbor could be used, but you would have to make lighter cuts as it is only so strong. I was afraid that the form cutting might be too much for that use so I just made the mandrel.
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org Honestly, I was surprised that you went as far in the chuck as you did... Personally, I would have faced off the blanks and drilled & maybe reamed the through holes, then gone over to this kind of a mandrel... I've lost track of how many I've made from bolts and or threaded rod over the years - this one is a bit larger than anything I've done, and a bit more elaborate in terms of centering the part...
I just don't like getting my tool really close to the jaws of the chuck, especially when they have "wings" that stick out proud of the workpiece...
A matter of personal preference, no doubt...
Cheers,
Eric
Keith -
Would you be so kind as to tell me what video editing software you use ?
great video nice job why change you mind on the gear?
رائع
I have dividing head envy I have a universal brown and sharp mill and would love a deciding head to go with it
Chris Anderson Check with me in a couple of weeks. There is a chance I might be able to pick up the K&T dividing head that goes with my machine and if so, I really don't need two dividing heads.......
Ok ill definitely do that
Nice as always. Question: how did you decide whether to set the size of the shaft (where the larger gears will seat) and tune the gear bores to press fit, or set the gear bores and tune the shafts to fit? There is the mandrel (or mandrels) on which the gear blanks will be mounted to machine the teeth which must be considered as well.
EDIT: It occurs to me that you might press fit the blanks on to their respective shafts, and cut the teeth with the blanks in their final working position. You could get some nice concentricity that way. Is there a place on each shaft where the dogs could be tightened down without damaging a bearing surface?
Peter W. Meek I can tell you are thinking things though - and you are getting ahead of me a bit. I will cover a lot of that in an upcoming video. The gears will be pressed onto the shafts, just as the original ones were. I will probably also put a Woodruff key in there just to make sure they don't spin, but the originals were just press fit.
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org My mind flies when I'm having fun. I really enjoy your videos; they make me think.
Hi Keith great vid as per normal. your really getting good with your editing.
Question. when your making gears why do you need to make a relief in the face?
Billy
Billy T Until Keith gets back to you, I'll jump in... The original gears appear to be cast pieces, so the reliefs were done to save metal - and thus weight and cost - in the foundry work.
As I understood Keith, he's making cosmetic reliefs in the replacement turned blanks to mimic the appearance of the cast gears...
Correct me if I'm wrong...
Eric
thought of that, but i believe the gears are inside a case are they not
Billy T No real need, just copying the originals. And the originals were probably made that way to save a few ounces of cast iron when they were cast. When you are making thousands of these gears at a time, every little bit of material savings helps reduce cost and no need for the extra material from any engineering reason - they are plenty strong enough with a thinner web.
Would that resin material be Tuffnol? I've seen that on motorcycle timing gears.
Hello Keith, you make amazingly nice videos! I have one small suggestion. Can you move the microphone to a position that does not have a lot of noise? I turn up the volume to hear what you are saying and the noise from the lathe drowns you out. I really enjoy your videos. All the best, Edgar
The problem is that the lathe at the museum is just so noisy. Nothing really I can do about that - I already have the mic positioned pretty close to my mouth. Hopefully in my new shop, the lathe I will use won't make so much noise....
When it gets to be about Wednesday, I'll be thinking..how's Kieth making out with those gears? Probably got some done by now.. Dave
David Richards Truth be known, they are all finished and the blower is back in action. I posted a sneak peek of them over on my Google+ page. New episode in the gear making saga to come out on Friday!
Man..you must work day and night..you even have a regular job..Dave
Mr. Rucker,
I've got a project of my own, and a couple of questions for you:
1. Do you remember the SAE number for the chrome molly(4130?)?
2. Do you remember the ASTM number for the cast iron(A536 100-70-03?)?
3. I know it's only been a year, but how has all of it held up? Have you done any inspections since installing and operating?
Also just wanted to say, I don't comment much on videos, but yours are great!
The steel was 4140. I am not positive about the cast iron, but I think it was A247.
Hi I am new to engineering, would the gear made of resin be some sort of protection for the rest of the gears, it will damage first. only a thought.
Ronald Grimshaw After doing some research, I am pretty sure that it was there to dampen vibration in the blower and make it run quieter.
Lionel027,
Since the gears are worn, do you have to consider the wear on the OD?
You can actually mathematically calculate the OD based on the pitch and number of teeth. Most of the wear is on the side of the teeth though rather than the actual OD of the gear - at least with these, if the wear was bad enough, it could start eating away at the OD.
When you were threading the shaft, how was it that you cut the same groove each time the machine started in to cutting. Is there some indicator you were watching, that would catch the groove on each revolution, without starting a new groove right next to the original?
Rita Moore There is a thread dial on the lathe that tells you when to engage the feed for cutting threads. I did a video a while back that included some details on threading on the lathe that you can watch if you like: ruclips.net/video/zmZO0LU6j_U/видео.html
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org One thing instead of using nut ,you can also check for depth with that 13 teeth per inch gauge (don't know english word for it),It has never fail me and it works perfectly every time.
Do you need to heat treat the gears and shafts?
Arnold Angel Not in this case - they originals were not heat treated. Some gears are though.
Why do you use a lube for cutting? I ran a roll grooving machine for 22 years but we used ceramic cutting chips and cut D2 tool steel but never used a lube.
Larry Wall Interesting question. I don't really use oil for lubrication, instead I use it to help keep my cutters and parts I am making cooler. The smoke generated from the oil releases a LOT of heat off of the part, which makes the cutters last longer. Coolant is better but I really am not set up to use that right now.
How much would it cost to make one of those gears my phenolic gear is stripped out
Hi Keith, Nice work as always.
I have a question though, is the lathe noise really that bad or is it just a function of filming process. If it is really that noisy, please consider hearing protection as any noise that makes your ears ring after exposure is causing harm which is cumulative and will lead to hearing loss in due course. This has nothing to do with nanby-pamby health and safety paranoia but is a real issue, more like the suggestion to use tongs when picking up a hot lump of metal. Just because you cant see (?) any damage doesn't mean there isn't any.
ATB
c
Chris Stephens That lathe does make more noise than a lot I have worked on, but the microphone does make it sound a lot worse in the videos.
Glad to hear that, no pun intended, It would drive me mad if it really was that loud.
Chris Stephens Try to be in a same room for 8 h when a guy 20 feet away is grinding thin sheet metal.You will never know the agony until you try to listen that bethoven's 9th symphony for angle grinder.
Ear plugs rule OK!
Here's a rookie question.
When machining the threads in several passes, how does he ensure that he is each time cutting in the same groove?
+gregg4 Go and watch this video on threading on a metal lathe: ruclips.net/video/zmZO0LU6j_U/видео.html. I think you will understand after watching.
Sir i am making my own lathe Machine project but i don't have gears for it so i deside to make gears wheel but i want some help from you sir please which metal is best for gearwheels
se ele fizesse uma marca com a broca de centrar e depois com o compasso de traçar fizesse a circunferência ficaria o correto ,mas , " pisou na bola " infelizmente !! Isso da pra fazer com a ponta da ferramenta !!
From the last video I was under the impression that those gears were made from steel and running in the cast-iron casing. Why do you machine the new gears out of cast iron and won't this wear down a lot faster?
Felix Dietz Cast iron is considered a bearing material. I believe Keith said in the previous video that the axles are chromoly which is a good pairing with cast iron.
One benefit of cast iron over steel gears is noise reduction.
Felix Dietz The pinion gears are steel, but the larger gears are cast iron. One trick that gear makers often used was running two gears of different hardness, it actually helps cut down on wear on both gears! Such was the case with the original gears and the ones I am replacing.
Thanks! This makes sense!
Felix Dietz Just make sure you put plenty of grease and no problems with wear.Direct dry metal on metal contact is always bad .
Add some lube and things go nicely . . . :)
zumbazumba1 thats for sure ;-)
I don't suppose you or one of the watchers here have, or know where I can get/download, some detail plans for a blower, do you? I would like to make one from scratch. Thanks everyone.
Why must gears have to have an inset on the sides? Why not just leave them flat on the sides?
..Probably to save material....or in this situation...a little weight....which helps acceleration...
Hallo Keith, i think Part 3 is missing?
i think your composite gear is bakalite...for what its worth
Andrew Wolboldt It might be indeed it has same color.
Delrin should work as long as that blower isn't direct coupled to the forge pan. Would hate to see the gears strip teeth if the heat softens the delrin enough.
***** There is several feet of pipe between the blower and the bottom of the forge. The blower does not get hot at all, at least no more than something sitting a couple of feet away from a forge would get. I really thing that they will be just fine.
Should be fine then. I was just thinking that many of the hand cranked ones were farriers pans and they were close coupled.
Went and looked at the youngster who made the acorns. If he doesn't get beaten down by the nay-sayers in the world, I would say he will be an asset to humanity.
Thanks for the video.
I just wonder why people in the U.S. still use imperial measurement instead of Metric as rest of the world does. Even its biggest neighbour and trading partner Canada uses Metric
We Indian were too influenced by british for too long therefore used imperial measurement. But we adapted metric system long ago to sync with rest of the world.
I have gears that are plastic and just wondering if u could make metal for me
Só acho que como profissional ele deixa a desejar ,fazendo o que ele faz com o instrumento de medição !! Isso permite que pessoas que estão vendo e não conhecem ,acham que esta fazendo certo ,e não esta !!
hi keith made it will send you a private message later
Andy Coakes Thanks Andy - I will keep an eye out for it.