'I heard MAHAVISHNU and knew why they hated WYNTON | The JASON MARSALIS Interview
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- Опубликовано: 21 авг 2024
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I am a drummer, producer and educator. I talk about Jazz, Prog and Fusion and the cultural context in which music has been, and is made. And sometimes, if you are lucky, I go off on one...
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Greetings! Thanks for checking out this interview. I realize I was moving around a lot but that’s because the interview was really exciting and inspiring (the couch doesn’t help either). I’m glad I contacted Andy to do this and I hope everyone finds this informative and enjoyable.
So gracious of you to participate, Jason! Thanks for doing the interview! Best, Daniel
Great stuff, maestro! Learned a lot. Love your family's music. Have had the pleasure of seeing Branford many times. His bands. My God. Tain is in my top 5 fave drummers. Can't wait to explore yours. Peace, brother.
Looking in from the outside you never see the full story. Thank you for adding your perspective to the conversation, Truly enlightening.
Thank you so much for this!
This was very interesting and much appreciated. Thank you (and to Andy). Cheers
Really great! I’ve loved the Marsalis family since seeing Wynton back when he was in the Blakey band. For me, Branford has always represented the open-minded spirit that will save the music in the end. Props to Wynton for making a stand whether people agree with him or not. He opened an important conversation that will continue forever, apparently.
Important to remember Wynton just turned 20 years old at the beginning of the 80’s.
Thoroughly enjoyable to hear two passionate musicians discuss their passion. The conversation plays like an improv jam session. Thanks for sharing.
I love Jason. As a native New Orleanian and jazz fan, I got to witness Jason grow into his own as the youngest son of America’s first family of jazz. I watched him as he played his early dates at Snug Harbor under the tutelage of Shannon Powell, and then I watched him as he transitioned to the vibraphone, playing a date in front of maybe six, eight paid customers and with a 15-year-old high school kid accompanying him on drums. He’s put in his time and paid his dues, and, to quote Branford, he’s the most talented member of the Marsalis family. Thank you, Andy, for sharing his insight and wisdom with your audience.
This is one of the most incredible discussions between two people I’ve ever heard. No matter the different backgrounds/cultures/upbringings between the both of you, it’s the willingness to discuss with the walls down, as well as genuine love for the music, that really shines through. I hope Jason comes back on the channel.
One of the most impressive aspects of your channel -- and your approach to the subject matter overall -- is how open you are to discussion and discovery. Thanks for the great interview with a musician I am a super fan of.
Appreciate that
I could listen to you guys talking about this music that I love for days!
Wow great interview! Jason is such a great person! I once met him at a masterclass at Florida State University and I felt that he was such an experienced and skilled teacher/lecturer.
As a side note, I always found that Wynton's albums Black Codes and Think of One were on the experimental side for someone who had historically been dubbed as so conservative. The instrumentation may not be revolutionary, but the lines and rhythms are relatively cutting edge for the time
Sensational dialogue with Jason. The longer and deeper it went the better. Jason's last point about the French vibraharpist summed things up perfectly. Music is by its nature (or, should I say, by its human nature) unrestrictive and universal.
Jason is correct in noting that when Wynton first came out he was so doctrinaire in his beliefs and his criticisms that suggested he was essentially reactionary- he worshiped the past, hated certain strains of jazz- notably fusion- and felt that repertory was the way to go. It was not so much his ability to move between jazz and classical- he was certainly not the first there. The work on Ken Burns film suggested this as well. AS Jason says, he came across as a arrogant, a know-it-all and completely unbending. I own a lot of Wynton's music, and find it well written and conceived, but it does not excite me anywhere near what John Coltrane does, or Mahavishnu does or even Albert Ayler does- it is technically brilliant and at times emotionally cold.
While Wyntons technique is unsurpassed, I remembering arguing with my father in law that Branford was the one more likely to create music. His son went to Berklee with Branford so we tag teamed.
Lots great jazz since but no Soulful ones this century.
1998 seems to be the end of creative music embedded in the times And seeking Universals.
I honestly don’t understand it when people mention that Wynton Marsalis plays without emotion/ soul
@jeffsimard8846 OH he does have Soul. Just a grumpy old man soul.
He plays with a focus of purity built from anger.
Of course, if you aren't angry you are not trying hard enough. Or paying attention. He simply became upper caste, Nawlins style.
@@donaldfrazell9540 I don't know if Wynton plays with emotion or not. i do know that his museum music engenders no emotion from me.
I understand what you're saying. I have an Art Blakey album with a young Wynton on it, and he kicks ass! This was the early 80s, and i always wondered why he didnt have that same fire on his first solo album.
Thanks for doing this interview, Andy. Thank you for being game to do the interview, Jason!!! Andy, I turned 12 in 1980... I saw Wynton at Wolf Trap around 1990 or so, and have followed the drama throughout... Really appreciate the nuanced exploration of what we experienced coming up through this time. Also interesting the U.K. perspective contrasted with what we experienced over here in the U.S. Y'all touched upon Williams and Holdsworth, the elephant in the room of ever present racism, dancing, American Masters, and so much more. Thanks for sharing the experiences, Jason! All great.
Interesting point about young guns cheering on the recent previous generation! In Denver the older hip hop and house dancers realized similar, won a competition against the young folk learning off of youtube, and then created workshops bringing in original greats and mentors to address the problem (see "Funkinetics" Disciples of Funk and DeAndre Carroll).
Penetrating and respectful indeed. Endless possibilities indeed. :)
I look forward to seeing you on here again, Jason! Best, Daniel
🤙
Wonderful comment.
Curious if you grew up in D.C. ?
I have a couple of slide shows of the old D.C. scene .
Maybe you might enjoy.
Peace….. rock star jazz cat.
Something that I I think is worth considering is that in the United States, since the beginning of schools like Berklee School of Music and Musicians Institute, figures like a Allan Holdsworth and Scott Henderson are much more excepted in jazz academia today. I’ve seen this both within the more expensive private schools and at state universities. While Holdsworth isn’t a household name in these programs, there always seems to be space for him among rhythm section players. I’ve seen a few horn players who are into him, but they mainly gravitate towards Pat Metheny or Kurt Rosenwinkel.
Allan is exploding in the Young guns diasphora ...finally ! 😃🙏
Now we just need Django to do the same ,-
The information about jazz to the general public is sorely lacking in all departments.
Great interview! On a seperate note, I remember when you played an evening one the xylophone at Loyola University. Fantastic.
This is a superb interview. The lesson for me is to never dismiss anything that anyone puts out there. There's always something you can take from another human being who is willing to express themselves. Even if you dislike most of it, there's something you can find that might be an answer to something you've been working on and struggling with...great work Andy
OK! it took me 24 hours to get through the whole episode. I had to see it in 4-5 sections and I'm glad I did. It enabled me to think things through between the sections. I'm just breathless. This was just mindblowing. Jason was all over the place and the way Andy and Jason just hit it was just out of this world. Jason is just the most knowledgable and interesting dude and the points he is raising are so heavy, it really makes you question everything. The stories he has are so incredible that I'm sure Andy will have another episode to continue this. I could have listened to this conversation for hours. I'm like sitting and moving around, jumping up and down and getting all worked up with Jason. It's clear that Andy is just blown away and having the time of his life. I think I'm ready now for today's meeting.
The third best thing about music is talking and arguing about it (the best thing about music is playing, the second best is listening to it).
Jazz Nerds. Love it.
Never lived what they are playing.
Art is Philosophy in various languages. Gotta live what you say.
Adversity builds Character.
The prototypical conflict, for instance, is one between Wynton Marsalis & John Scofield. I see no conflict. Love both. Room for both. Peace ☮️ out ❤
What a great episode and interview! Im 55 and I started out as a musician in the 1980s. At that time I was very excited and even inspired by Wynton Marsalis because I saw that people, for example, were going back and getting deeply into Freddie Hubbard and that is always a good thing.
Jason was referring to a very funny scene in "Jailhouse Rock" Here's how it goes: Elvis has been released from jail and taken to a swanky party. There are 2 or 3 white party guests listening to a Lenny Tristano record and discussing it. They are obviously pretentious music intellectuals. So the lady asks Elvis "You are a musician what do you think of the dissonance in modern jazz?" Elvis gets very uptight. He says in his Tupelo dialect "Lady I dunno what the hell yer talkin' about!" Whereupon he storms out through the front door into the street! They cut to a shocked reaction on the jazz intellectuals.
Fun fact: Elvis never wrote any songs himself (he probably thought a mode was the term for putting ice cream on a piece of pie) but his management got him 50% co-writing credits on a number of his hits, despite having nothing to do with their creation.
Tristano didn't even have the Purple Gang on his records
This scene is so cringe.
ruclips.net/video/FLB1ftUhkN4/видео.html
Great interview! Entertaining and informative. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great conversation Andy & Jason ... stuff like this is the best part of the internet. Grown ups having grown up conversation. Different perspectives no right or wrong necessarily , just seeing everybody's point of view...
When i started to study music 10 years ago and found jazz i could not understand how it had disappeared into the shadows so quickly - especially in the UK, i see it popping up in all forms of music again now and that is great.
It truly is one of the greatest art forms and i hope it finds its place at the top of the modern musical hierachy because that is where it belongs.
MY DEAR ANDY, What a brilliant interview! It had a uniquely harmonious musical ying/yang quality where the black side contains a drop of white and the white side has a drop of black.
This conversation is a masterclass! My first jazz albums were Mr Gone, Eye of the Beholder, Still Life Talking, Holdsworth (Sand) - and Royal Garden Blues! I love how the Marsalis family always go so hard!
My favorite video in this channel so far. Amazing.
Loved this conversation, definitely would love to hear it continued!
I will say that I’m always a bit unsure when we’re talking “the new guard” of jazz, or the “younger” cats, who exactly one is referring to unless names of players and bands are in the mix, and I sometimes get dismissive without that context, but I think I’m getting the general picture here. I’m definitely coming at this from a very different standpoint, as someone who’s not a musician, who’s not as immersed in any scenes or traditions, but as a fan of jazz, who’s explored jazz for twenty years (off and on, I’m a fan of most genres though), who took jazz classes in college for electives to understand the history and music better, but ultimately as someone who just wants to hear music that can inspire them, and help enrich my life. Like any art/music, I’m mostly out to have my mind blown. I’m always going back to older jazz artists and groups, yeah, but I am also really trying to make an effort to hear what’s new, who’s doing something amazing with this thing called jazz, and frankly I am consistently blown away every year at the quantity of really quality work that’s coming out, from multiple different “scenes”, in multiple different countries and continents. So, when I hear some people say “nothing new is happening” or “the best stuff has already come and gone” or “young musicians don’t have their own voice and/or style”, I typically react with disbelief that people saying such things are paying attention to what’s actually coming out (and I’m not putting all that on Jason or Andy).
All that said, I do get a lot of the criticisms, and I get how coming at this from a position of being way more imbedded in the music as a working musician or as an educator is definitely going to mean having other understandings than what I have, and so on. I appreciate hearing these other perspectives, and definitely will listen to more. On the other hand, for those who don’t know that there’s still great jazz coming out, a lot of it from younger artists, and a lot of it legitimately cutting edge in its eclecticism/influences imo.. well, if you don’t know, then find out. I don’t see how anyone who loves jazz couldn’t find things coming out now that they don’t love (and again, I’m not implying this is what’s being said here, I’m speaking more generally). ✌️❤️♾️
Fantastic interview, fantastic perspective! Thank you for doing it.
Our pleasure!
What an interview! This is just mind blowing! trying to plan the next 24 hours so that I see the whole thing before Friday's meeting. So many new insights are emerging from this episode that I really have to take notes. This is so important! It's like I've been waiting for this discussion to happen for years. I'm not even half way through.
Loved this. Some interesting themes around the impact of commerce/ lack of it on jazz’s development. More please!
I watched this over four sessions and it's fantastic. Jason is so knowledgeable and generous with it. Nice one, Andy, for putting this together. You're creating a real resource here, for players and listeners.
Wonderful conversation there! By the way, imho. the best antidote against 1980s Fuzak is Marc Johnson's Bass Desires (quartet with Bill Frisell, John Scofield, Peter Erskine). Early to mid 1980s and what an incredible journey these guys were on. My starting point for my own personal deep dive down into Jazz.
I am not musician, but I love jazz and jazz fusion. And yet I enjoyed this entire two hour conversation! Great stuff!
I love the discussion of Tain Watts and Jason Marsalis hearing for the FIRST time Return To Forever. Just beautiful...
Great interview. Wynton Marsalis' sole entry into fusion:
Silk
Bass - Stanley Clarke
Guitar - Eric Gale
Keyboards, Synthesizer - Ronnie Foster
Percussion - Sammy Figueroa
Synthesizer - Todd Cochran
Tenor Saxophone - Stanley Turrentine
Trumpet - Tom Browne
Written-By, Arranged By, Drums - Ndugu*
8:00
A2 In Celebration Of The Human Spirit
Bass - Marcus Miller
Drums - Ndugu*
Flute - Dave Valentin
Guitar - Eric Gale
Keyboards, Synthesizer - Ronnie Foster
Percussion - Manolo Badrena, Sammy Figueroa
Trumpet - Tom Browne
Trumpet, Flugelhorn - Wynton Marsalis
Written-By, Arranged By, Bass - Stanley Clarke
9:08
B1 Hot Fire
Bass - Stanley Clarke
Flute - Dave Valentin
Guitar - Eric Gale
Keyboards, Synthesizer - Ronnie Foster
Percussion - Manolo Badrena, Sammy Figueroa
Trumpet, Flugelhorn - Wynton Marsalis
Written-By, Arranged By, Drums - Ndugu*
6:58
B2 Sunwalk
Arranged By, Bass - Stanley Clarke
Drums - Ndugu*
Guitar - Eric Gale, George Benson
Percussion - Sammy Figueroa
Tenor Saxophone - Stanley Turrentine
Trumpet - Tom Browne
Written-By, Arranged By, Keyboards, Synthesizer - Ronnie Foster
I love seeing Jason and I am glad he spoke on the early days of Wynton. Lots of Jazz folks who really need to re access Wynton because there is a vibrant scene Bop based musics that wasn't there when Wynton and the other Young Lions came out. Wynton was not in a vacuum, He came out of Clark Terry, Dizzy, Miles, and Art Blakey. Look at all the guys who went into all those bands and mentors and you can see the music now. Not just Wynton.
Wow, definitely one of the most open and knowledgeable guests you've had on so far. What a lovely surprise.
Glad you enjoyed it!
That’s one of the most engaging and illuminating conversations I’ve listened to in a long time. Big smiles when then conversation turned to Buckshot LeFonque. My gateway drug into jazz. Came for DJ Premier… stayed for Branford.
Thanks gents.
Great interview. Andy really knows what he's talking about. Always interesting and insightful.
I enjoyed that interview. Thank you.
Can't wait for the next interview Andy does with Jason. Great stuff!
Thank you for the great interview. There is a topic I miss badly when it's about Wyntons view on jazz and also in this interview which is enlightening indeed. I'm not all through admittedly until now. It's Bill Evans and how he is to my experience at least in Europe one of the single most influential jazz musicians on todays contemporary jazz landscape created more by whities. The whole ECM, Enja, ACT type is totally coming out of the Bill Evans Trio tradition IMveryHO. Could be wrong about that but at least it should be mentioned somehow in the discussion since it is creative art and jazz on the highest level and has even more impact today than the whole fusion thing I find- again IMO of course.
Haven't finished listening yet, but this is great. I loved hearing Jason shout out the old AOL jazz boards, because I was one of the handful of other regulars he sparred with back in the day (late 90s, early 00s) so that was a blast from the past. I was a couple years older than Jason, but he was far more mature! Even though I agree with Andy's main criticisms of the sort of Crouch-Marsalis Conservatism movement of the 80s, I've always had a more nuanced and admiring view of Wynton and the Marsalis family as a whole thanks in large part to the context filled out in those discussions with Jason. If you set aside all of the pendulum swinging music industry stuff, Wynton has just been a guy who can play the hell out of the trumpet and who really did develop a unique artistic voice as a composer too (my favorite example is "In This House On This Morning"). I'm loving this interview so far.
My views have changed regarding Wynton....
The Mahavishnu Orchestra are my favorite music group of all time.
And mine
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Awesome. Great minds think alike 😉😃. The band's music is the perfect blend of emotion and technical ability imo. I really enjoyed the interview/conversation you had with Jason.
Loved the interview. Now I am going to listen to “On Red Gardenien Street “
thx for this conversation! 😀
Great interview!
Thanks.
I think Wynton has really opened his mind in recent years. Once he got out from under the influence of the late Stanley Crouch.
Indeed. Poor Stanley. Tin eared Stanley. I remember him saying Bird With Strings was elevator music.
Strange views on John McLaughlin from some musicians, I just love his guitar on "In a Silent Way" and tracks like Pharaoh's Dance on Bitches Brew
Why we love the music we do is deeper than the music. We debate and discuss music but it's really about our life and humanity, what it is, how it's been shaped and what we understand about it. To be honest creating and appreciating music is a process of self discovery through the manipulation of external elements. It's like... you don't know you have a voice until you hear it. And you are just as surprised as anyone else. That's the "magic" to maintain. Once you resign yourself to thinking you know exactly what to say and how to say it... the "magic" is lost. I believe this is why I couldn't warm up to Wynton's music, although I wanted to and tried. I believe he musically thought he knew exactly what to say and how to say it.
Jazz was once a music of people, places, culture, and time. Now it's just a music of musical training
A great interview with a view from the inside which explores the 'dangerous' elements of the conversation with subtlety and humour. These are exactly the sorts of discussions that the internet should be facilitating. Great job from both of you.
Great interview- more please! Shut up n' play yer guitar changed the way I viewed drums and music as well.
This is such a terrific interview. Thanks Andy, for diving in with both feet into areas where this white Yank would fear to tread, and thanks, Jason, for reaching out and so generously sharing your informed perspective. On the subject of jazz being presented as an exclusively Black, American art form, Miles Davis's take adds another wrinkle to a complex and fraught topic. In the 80s, when Miles stood accused by many of "selling out" and playing music that "wasn't jazz," he made clear that he was moving away from music that generally fell under that umbrella, on purpose and at full speed. In his view "jazz" had become a label used by industry executives to confine Black artists to a musical ghetto where they could be controlled. In Miles's own words, the attitude of the suits was "n**ger, n**ger, n**ger, jazz, jazz, jazz."
Great talk, listening to it at work. I'm checking that Norbert Lucarain guy...
Thanks for listening
Miles=innovator, Wynton=imitator. Would have loved to hear Blackwell and Ornette practicing together, two geniuses.
This was a truly great interview
Great interview! Thank you!
My introduction to Branford was when he played live with The Grateful Dead on the Without A Net live album.
Really good interview!
By the way, Branford did a Mahavishnu inspired foray with Kevin Eubanks in the 80s. Thye opened for the Grateful Dead a few times. There might be a board recording or two of that.
24:55 You are so right about “an energy “ that ran out. That energy was called 24:57 quaaludes and LSD 😂😂😂
Great chat. Loved hearing about Marsalis Snr digging Cecil Taylor and his Silent Tongues album. By the way, I wonder why they used a John McLaughlin lookalike in the new Voltarol advert!
Ha ha ha...just watched it...you win best comment of the day for that. In my town there is a plumber called Stanley Clarke which is written on big letters on his van!
A great interview and I for one respect you Andy as a human who happens to be White who would say that Jazz is diminished when it's scope is restricted to being an ostensibly a Black Artform for Black people.
You are right but you should know that you as a White individual have the entire western society's achievement that you could ascribe yourself to no matter how tenuous your grip.
Black people have few lauded achievements prescribed to them so it is no wonder we cling to Jazz so vehmently.
The music is there for all to play and listen to and if you want to be welcomed keep doing what you are doing that is be respectful and be open to receive from the community that serves you with your chosen pursuit and be thankful to those who bring it to you.
Thanks for that Jeffrey. Who was the greatest musician of the last century?...Louis Armstrong. Who was the greatest composer? Duke Ellington. Who was the greatest virtuoso?....Art Tatum. I can go on and on. How does it become better by appending the world 'Black' in front of these statements. When I listen to Louis, I feel proud, because I love Jazz. I know what that guy achieved, and the insane talent he had. I hope that if I was black I could look at Louis and feel proud that he was a Black man, and I would be prouder because his achievements stood on their own, without that appendage. I am not denying his Blacknuss, it is integral. But leave that there. It ruins the evidence by drawing attention to it.
I am a white man yes, but my mum is Indian. Of course this changes nothing, and I take no personal pride in the achievements of Ravi Shankar or Gandhi....
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Andy everything you say is true and as my daughter Always reminds me there is only one race.
Whilst this is true I happen to be Black and British born in these isles and I actually feel I am part of this country's national identity.
I call myself non apparent indigenous.
All my life music has been my guide as proof of the universal continuity of humankind and Jazz expresses it best.
My favourite band the Yellow Jackets for me is my archtypal confirmation of the idea if Jazz a frame work that holds your gaze where exponents of individuality combine together to create great works where the only criterion applied is not the amount melanin but how well you can harness the sound of you.
Jazz is and has been one of the greatest lessons to humanity of how to subvert racism despite the fact that racism was an integral and Intrinsic to its creation.
My problem with you is your a Yam Yam just like my wife😂🤣
GREAT video (which I’ll watch repeatedly).
However to Andy’s point, Jazz being identified as black music doesn’t mean that others can’t see a part of themselves in it or participate in it in great ways.
Don’t feel ostracized.🙂
Wynton said to me in front of the whole year class at the guildhall School of music that Jaco wasn’t swinging or anything and he hadn’t heard We Want Miles with Marcus Miller swinging on electric bass with miles Davis. I was a bit gutted or upset but I can do what I want . Love Wynton live at blues alley but mostly because Bob Hurst is outstanding. Ever hear Fuse one Silk ? Wynton plays on a fusion album with Stanley Clarke and Ronnie Foster
I love the way you are being you 😁
damn that was serious fucking inside baseball. great fun to eavesdrop
The Night Passage track isn’t errr I don’t know it’s sort of chilled or strange . But the rest of the album is full on . Port of entry has an amazing bass solo . Fast city has some amazing fast swing bass playing .
Hi Andy, I really enjoy your videos but I find that if I have to wait 2-3 days to see one that's flagged up as pending I tend to find busy-ness in the interim means I often don't get round to remembering to view these as other things in life supersede getting round to that. (This too goes for other video makers and their youtube videos which do the same thing.) I wonder how many more viewers video makers could achieve without these 'pending' flag-ups? People's browsing is spontaneous I imagine and feel they're more often not going to make a point of remembering to catch a particular video of the future.. And if they do there's few that would wish to view a glut of them maybe which they now see have become available. Maybe it's a question for the VC community.. Thanks for reading - it's only one viewers take on it, but felt it possibly worth a share. Your own are always top banana
Regarding Allan Holdsworth, nobody has caught up with let alone surpassed his contribution to music theory expansion or what's possible to play on guitar or any instrument for that matter. I seriously doubt most players out there, Kurt, Pat, John, Johnathan, Kevin et al have even really unpacked what Allan did. He stretched and reached for territory that nobody else has really explored deeply enough to understand fully let alone to have transcended. He alone set the watermark, possibly too high because of how personal his approach was. Plus what he could do physically with his very long fingers would allow for how far out he could stretch and reach melodic structures, weave new patterns and unfold tapestries that had a complexity of almost fractal expression. How he came up with his ideas was like having a back door to the guitar from a pianistic and saxophonists purview. From what he learned early on and later was able to sense internally, traditional structures and subdivisions were never foundational, so they never took root. An analysis of his solos and compositional ideas show how he would jump free of traditional navigation, eschewing notational interpolation, almost freely tumbling and spinning out of control and getting lost out in some other galaxy yet always finding his way back home is truly unique to his music and playing. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
Frank Zappa made some near jazz records.
There's something quite absurd and not a little dishonest in ascribing to Wynton Marsalis a view that he does not hold. Wynton Marsalis doesn't think that Jazz is simply "Black" music, it is not a view he holds and to keep repeating it is to repeat an untruth. Even worse is to try portray a smart, generous, extremely well-read, widely traveled, deeply humane, clever and witty man, with very nuanced views, as a dumb "race essentialist" . The fact is that no music or art "belongs" to any one people... nor can anyone stop any individual from anywhere in the world from liking, participating in and excelling in any art form. Wynton, above all else, understands this.
The second weird thing that keeps being repeated is this idea that Wynton Marsalis is a "conservative". Wynton was brave and committed enough to point out that the whole fusion scene was a naked emperor that had little to no musical value. He only did something that had to be done in the late 70's and that was rescue Jazz from the dead-end it found itself in. And he was right.... who cares about fusion or any of the so-called Smooth Jazz schlock, today? It's interesting that Wynton has collaborated with artists as diverse as Eric Clapton, Willie Nelson, Wayne Shorter, Lenny Kravits, Bob Dylan, Ghanaian drummers, Iranian flautists and Indian musicians... while producing acclaimed Jazz influenced symphonic works like "Swing Symphony" and the "Jungle", as well as genre defying works like "The Ever Fonky Low Down". There's literally no musician experimenting more and looking to expand the Jazz vocabulary in a serious and rigorous way than Wynton Marsalis. That's conservative??
Engage with the actual points and arguments Wynton makes and maybe we'll get some illumination. BTW Stanley Crouch's view on race is deeply nuanced and he is not the bogey man that a lot white folks make him out to be, just saying.
The reason a lot of white critics hate Marsalis is because he called out their bullshit early on, starting with James Lincoln Collier in 80's. He will not be condescended to by folks who knew less than he did... good for him, I say!
Yes, I agree. Jason contacted me because he agreed with a lot of what I'm saying but did not think his brother should be wholly to blame for those ideas that are now taught in colleges. I hope this video makes that case
Who cares about Jazz fusion nowadays? Fair enough. I will ask you something else though: who cares about jazz? Not a lot more people I can tell you that and it’s not getting better.
I dug Wynton when he arrived, didn't know much about Blakey. I knew Miles 60s well Wayne Shorter, downbeat, 70s catching up. I never cared for Mahavishnu, RTF a Little. There was a lot of music called Fusion and even more called Jazz in 70s. Wynton said he left Blakey too early lol
For us not trained in jazz, who are some of the "new jazz" bands and artists that they are criticising towards the end?
Shit, I can’t watch this tonight, possibly until the weekend, and it looks and sounds fuckin ace from your intro. It sounds ‘substantial’ just from the slightly revelatory tone , and at a more nuanced or high resolution level, choice of words coupled with non-verbal stuff.
Bollocks, life gets in the way of the life we’d rather lead …. ( believe me I know that’s a very first world problem).
It's two hours long as well...covers a lot of ground
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I’m tempted to watch tonight whilst fresh, but I’ve learned that sometimes you have to dig deep, and defer.
So cool though that when I first came across you,( and I haven’t checked but it seems like it couldn’t have been much more than a year or so ago, it was when you provocatively posted the ‘The Feeling vs Yes’ vid ), you didn’t have much more than an around a thousand subscribers plus. It seems a bit mad,( but in a good way). Anyway, bring on the weekend, even though I’ll be late to the party so to speak.
ok after only 10 minutes....am I wrong or would John McLaughlin have nothing to say but GREAT THINGS about Wynton Marsalis ???? Genres and Styles or nothing more than variations of things you ALREADY love !! I'll now resume the interview....😁
I don't understand how acknowledging the fact that jazz is "Black American" artform somehow diminishes it. Is there anything I can read or watch that might flesh out that idea a bit more?
Yes, my video coming out on Monday, and my interview with Jason Marsalis
Good interchange. In my humble opinion Andy, it is time for you to go beyond "why I hate Wynton", "Why I hate John Bonham", "Why I do not talk about...." and ask your followers WHAT DO THEY THINK about whoever or whatever album and, based on the survey results, put out a video on those grounds. You keep preaching that jazz (jazz fusion) is democratic (which I do agree) so I think it would be great to apply that credo and ask your thousands of followers e.g. "Why do they think e.g. John Patitucci fucked up by naming one of his albums the same as one of Miles Davis'' ". In other words, I tend to get sick of personal assessments. Your knowledge is immense and I think it is time to expand that to your wider audience AND LISTEN TO THEM. Personal assessments are not inherently bad but..... this monolithic approach to music criticism has its limits in my view. Look for new frontiers. It is time for you to move on. Good luck and keep up the good work.
Why do you think John McLaughlin on his LP My Goals Beyond decided to solo on just one chord instead of Mingus's gorgeous but difficult chord progression on Goodbye Pork Pie Hat?. Do you think this little detail ie John McLaughlins inability to solo over challenging changes in his early career unlike Matheny Towner Martino or even Holdsworth had something to do with why the Tonight Show Band full of old School Jazzophiles were always less than impressed with John McLaughlin it seemed. Okay on a totally different note. Why is Ornette style Free jazz not being taught in Jazz Schools? This is btw the other side of the coin you're ignoring. This is a totally different question. But why were Jarrett Bley and that German cat the only jazz pianists capable of improvising in that Ornette Coleman style on the international scene? Taylor did somthing individual and distinct from Ornette. But It's all about distinctions. The distinctions you make obviously lead you to believe that The Mahavishnu Orchestra provided somekinda viable alternate paradigm to the tradition... Really?
German cat = Joachim Kuehn?
@@narosgmbh5916 right and Walter Norris and Geri Allen
Amazing how someone can get the wrong end of the stick. The fact they are not teaching anything beyond bop or modality is why I'm having these discussions. And Jason states the fusion guys came out of free jazz. The idea McLaughlin cannot play changes is bonkers. Listen to him play on this back in 1966 when he was 24: ruclips.net/video/n1EQ1h2-cLE/видео.html
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer yup okay he's playing Nica's Dream. I stand corrected... This LP is the 1st evidence I've found well you provided of John McLaughlin playing changes. But as far as providing an alternative paradigm to the tradition not so much unless you consider things like Phronesis an outgrowth of Fusion.
How about episode on latin jazz ???
❤
I heard Wynton and knew why they hated The Trio of Doom
32:00 nit treading carefully enough, for me.
So he thinks Mahavishnu is jazz?
Wntons first album Black Codes from the Underground broke Ken Burns whole dogma.
Branford continued while Wynton wanted to save what was. Updated bop but didnt move on as Mbase and Miles ex players did.
Wy ton still great but stopped buying after Think of One.
Respect.
Black Codes was several years after Wynton's first album, and several years before Ken Burns had anything to say about jazz. So your statement doesn't make much sense.
Black Codes is not Wynton's first.
No, he did Think of One earlier, a Standards and Live but those two were his personally creative phase. And being before Burns proved him wrong. Wynton took on thr NY Phil jazz chair and became a documentarian himself.
The positive was getting older ignored players a steady check.
Same with painting much earlier so the per erosion far longer and more entrenched. First Gen kids got it. But now they just outta touch nerds.
The Classic Ellis Marsalis
ruclips.net/p/PLBJenJIJrq0wCMddznf5xO6p5F44jcUJE
Music has its tyrants and visionaries. Often, it's the same person. For the most part, the ones who create meaningful shifts in genres didn't ask for permission. The idea that there is an authoritarian hierarchy is pure folly. It just keeps moving along irrespective of who's assuming the mantle of gatekeeper. If art had to be approved and promoted by art schools and professors, critics and celebrated artists we'd all be stuck with whatever they approved. Picasso would never have made sense to Rembrandt. Klee would have angered and confused the patrons of Leonardo Da Vinci. Many modern artist would have been put in jail or killed, actually. But then we had Hieronymus Bosch. Go figure. So be careful about what gets trashed or glorified. It may upset or embolden agendas that were never the intention of the artist.
Mr.Wynton came across as a conservative, especially when he spoke about pop culture.
So I've always put them in the same bag with Robeson, Cosby, etc.
Somehow these cats were labeled soulless by a lot of reviewers.
To a degree, it is a culturally political schism that probably is irreversible.
No need to linger on this subject as these musics are passed due.
Conservatives are usually against imagination.
What I always found ironic was their involvement with Sting.
I guess ideologies can be bought or subverted.
@@helenvlabatski4871 Branford and Kenny Kirkland played with Sting. Wynton did not.
remarkable; you say 'don't put charlie parker in a box like jazz or black/african-american etc etc'... but i listened to you endlessly categorize things up to that point (tuning out now)... a suggestion if i may; try discussing music without ANY mention of skin color and 'genre'... just give it a sincere go... i'll be curious to see how it feels to you... 😉
Well check out my videos on various jazz artists and see if I do...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer "...various *_jazz_* artists..." ‼😳‼
Branford talks about playing with Grateful Dead and Sting. ruclips.net/video/GnnoHPFMs3U/видео.html
I was surprised when I heard Wynton introducing jazz at Lincoln center in a gravelly old blues voice. He's to jazz what Keb Mo is to blues, both are fakes. I saw Wynton and Branford play with VSOP, Tony was driving the tempo and I thought those two privileged punks would wet themselves. Saw them both several times and never good. Saw Shorter at 80 and he blew us all away. Jazz at Lincoln center shows that jazz is now classical music, for the most part.
Jazz is created and perfected by black people. That's the end of the discussion.
Zawinul ,Pastorius ?
Bullshit
Creoles created jazz as much as Afro Americans. They did not consider themselves Black as they had a different culture. Native Americans, who helped and sheltered Black people through Jim Crow, also played a big part in the creation of Jazz, as did white people. But your statement is factually incorrect I'm afraid. The Afro American experience was essential and central but in the end, Jazz was created by Americans.
Aren’t we supposed to hate racists?
"Jazz is created and perfected by black people"
You know, I'm happy with that definition. And - with some genius exceptions like Django Reinhardt and Bill Evans - it pretty much works up until Bitches Brew. But then you've got to ask yourself why did Miles hire so many white musicians to join him?
“….. Charlie Parker understood quantum physics.” You killed 😹😹😹 me bro with the extent to which you tried to prove your bona fides as Not a white racist.
Because idiots who have blindly swallowed the CRT dogma think that the only white people can be racist the only way they can absolve themselves of the sin of being white is to forever apologise for stuff they never did.
He is very jumpy.
Theres rhythm to it though?
Point?
Drummer. See Andy
Did you have to wait to speak to Jason to know that you were wrong? Then am sorry to say you obviously don't know much about jazz...
Jason got in touch becuase he agreed with what I said. Did you watch the video?
It's one thing to check something out and be aware of it, and another thing to do that and then set up a hierarchy of what is and isn't jazz based on freezing the evolution of the music at some point in the long ago past.
Fusion ended with that first Yellowjackets record. The change was when the DX-7 replaced the Fender Rhodes...then #Fazz (80’s smooth jazz arrived)
I hate to think about it
One can argue that Spyro Gyra’s “Morning Dance” was the end.
Late 1970s and the 80s and 90s...Downtown scene? Let's not forget what was happening there and then. Jazz also went down a pathway there, but it didn't have the $$$$ backing that the young lions did. A couple of artists did for a short time, but the progressive side of things didn't get the backing of those in suits and ties. Arthur Blythe, David Murry, and a couple of others got deals, but they were playing in dives or predominantly small clubs and the lions were moving into concert halls and "respectable joints".
Old enough to have bought the musician magazine in real time in like 1981 or so between a discussion between Herbie Hancock and Wynton Marsalis. And Winston was such a jerk about rock ‘n’ roll or even fusion. He just thought it was garbage and was pretty rude to Herbie Hancock, who obviously can and has played everything. I’ve never liked Wynton since all he does is look backwards.