My last lowball was $30k under what we discussed. I was very frustrated cause I'd asked another good offer to wait a week. The minute I saw that offer, I called the other company, accepted their good offer, then immediately turned down the low one. They called and tried to negotiate up, NOPE. It's a big issue of disrespect for me. It's insulting.
I agree 100% It's just downright disrespectful that they expect you to work for a lot less that you're valued. It's also a good indicator of the kind of people you might be working with.
The risk of lowballing an employee is that they'll just join your company/team but continue actively looking for jobs. Meanwhile, as a company, you're devoting all kinds of energy and effort training these new hires, incurring a cost, and if six months later they get an offer from another company willing to go above and beyond the going market rate, not only do you lose your new hire, but you also lost the investment of time and money to train them in the company's internal processes without getting much of an ROI. It gets even worse if that low balled new hire is in a senior position and working on critical projects, where if they leave, it would make or break the project.
in general i find that this applies even in situations of retaining already veteran employees. I have yet to have a dev job where i feel like the company was concerned with keeping me around over saving themselves money. Its sad for them, im glad to always leave.
I did some contract work where they hired in a new manager for an IT group. The organization is a revolving door from what I've seen. This hire was a firecracker with about 10% grade a a-hole mixed in. Of course they were lowballed. Took the job, worked there for 12 weeks and told every single upper management what he thought and moved onto a job paying $100K more. It was epic and spot on.
Or you can take it for the time being (if you’re unemployed) and keep looking for a new role and leave for a new company asap. Can say it was $ and a new opportunity when you tell your boss why you’re leaving. They usually know why people w low ball offers leave.
They know they are low, they just don't care. They feel there is a big enough pool to draw from they don't have to care. They also don't tend to care about experience. These same people would gladly hire someone just out of college rather than an experienced individual. Ask anyone in Healthcare about this.
I might not even show up the 1st day of work to this job. The gas prices just increased up to $5.07 for 3/4ths of a gallon. It's not worth it. On top of that I have to buy the pants, shoes and not to mention worthless food Handlers card.
I recently got an interview, they asked me the salary I was expecting, I said something in the range of 40 to 45k. They said its fair, they where thinking pf giving me 47k even. Then I said ok, when the job pffer came after the second interview, I was surprised they said they wanted to give me 59k. I couldnt believe it, they said they wanted to make sure I got payed enough because they didnt want me to leave after a couple months. I obviously took it, they are a great company, and that just proved it to me
This situation has happened to me twice. It was funny because I am on the phone while they are making the offer and trying hard to be cool while thinking......HOW MUCH???? OMFG WOW WOW WOW. That is such a good feeling.
@@ImJiom something similar just happened to me. Sure i did have to pass up another great offer, with possibly also great opportunity for personal development, but yes it does feel great, like finally my worth is validated. ...but then it also leave a bad taste in my mouth since i then realize how deeply i was lowballed by my former employer, one i did worked for more than half a decade, from when it was a start up until many rounds of secondary subscriptions from few capital venture.
I got lowballed with an offer that was 20k lower than my current salary. At that point I even told them what my current salary was just to drive home the point. The recruiter proceeded to berate me by claiming they don't want people who only care about money anyway. I was like, 20k less means my family has to cut down on food. You're a multi-billion dollar corporation who wants to short me 20k, and I'm the one who only cares about money?
When you are young and single, or maybe its just you and your gf, you can afford to slack off on pay to persue your passions in your carreer, but after you have a kid, everything changes. Your number one priority is your family, You made the right choice
Is not caring about money. Is caring about your time. How much you value the time you are giving vs the money they are giving. At the end of day. Time is life. You are giving a part of your life. And you know what that part of your life is worth for you.
From personal experience, a low ball offer is a clear indication of how the potential employer feels about you. Sure they want your experience, but their needs to cut costs come first. I remember being told "you are so rare, its so hard to find Front End Developers these days", and then being offered the chance to start up a department and get juniors / interns a later stage. I was offered a junior salary after all that praise. I immediately rejected the offer with no tolerance for negotiation (the recruiter was very eager). Perhaps I was being brash. But then again, if they offered so little for so much responsibility, what other surprises awaited me if I had taken the role? I consider this to be a red flag to be honest. it definitely falls under that category but in a subtle way. A good company values your worth and treats you as an investment rather than a means to an end. My second employer tripled my salary (over what I had asked for) after my test results to secure me. That's a clear sign of being valued and appreciated.
@@ThePrimeMinisterOfTheBlock I have worked in backend before, PHP and business intelligence (MSSQL and databases). Just because you can do something doesn't mean you enjoy it. I actually enjoy Front end development and I'm able to maintain a relative work life balance. I have friends in backend who were experiencing burnout and hair loss because of the nature of their roles. No thanks 😂
If i were you shut up take the offer and put up with it . In the same time job hunt a new and better one that comes by and then give your letter and go.
After going through 3 rounds of interviews, the recruiter pulled a bait-and-switch and offered me the role at a level 2 titles below what was discussed before the whole process began. I was furious, since it was a waste of my time, as well as theirs. They tried hard to justify this with some fuzzy logic on "years of experience" which didn't even match the titles people internally had (Linkedin shows all this), and I called them out on it (respectfully). Said I wouldn't budge, so she checked with the hiring manager again. Walked away, and wound up at a company with a role 2 titles higher than I was aiming for. So, I netted 4 titles higher than this offer, just two weeks later. Don't be afraid to know your value and walk away.
THAT HAPPENED TO ME. I was supposed to start temporary at a local utility company as a substation designer. I interviewed with the client, then after the client agreed to bring me on board, the temp agency switched the title to document manager. Then later, the temp agency said the job is on hold. HURRAY, I'm so glad I don't have to work for that awful temp agency. The client was great, very nice, but the temp agency, they were awful.
@@solarwinds- I wouldn't be surprised if they told you doc manager but were billing the client at the designer rate....it's definitely possible I have seen crazier stuff.
I did accept a lowball offer because nobody was really hiring during the pandemic and the job was a hybrid position close to my home. I was still interviewing for other positions while I worked my lowball job. The lowball job was fun and I learned several new technologies while working. Eventually, another recruiter was able to find a much higher paying job and I explained to my boss that I wasn’t making enough money for my experience and skill set. They still haven’t replaced me since I left according to my former coworkers.
Look at GM who complained they just couldn't get the people for their new battery plant. These are reasonably high tech engineering jobs got to be on the ball or the end product will be poor and maybe dangerous . The pay they are offering is pretty much the same as woking at McDonalds.
This happened to me a few years back. Got an offer that I didn’t like, but at the time I was laid off and needed a gig. Luckily I was getting pretty far down the interview path with other companies. So, I accepted the low ball offer, began the background check knowing that if I worked there - it would be short lived. Fortunately, I got a much better offer from another company and declined the first role. I was transparent and flat out said that the offer wasn’t competitive enough. They weren’t happy but I don’t care. 😀
Good. You're a free agent and you have no moral obligation of loyalty. Especially since the company wouldn't think twice about moral implications of firing you. Let's be real.
I once had a super lowball offer which was about half of my expectation being made in the first interview. When I told the person that the offer is too low, she started yelling at me and was borderline insulting. At that point I just grabbed my resume from her dest, told her to delete my data from her IT-system (where I live there is a law that requires companies to do so, if you request it) and left. She kept yelling something like "I'll make sure you never find a job" after me, but I just ignored her. 2 Months later I got a job where they were happy to meet my expectation despite me giving them an even higher number as I was expecting them to lowball me too.
In Colorado, employees are required to post the real pay range in the job description. No nonsense, no lying to people, and no wasting everyone's time. NY is putting this into effect shortly as well. This should just be a Federal law so that companies can't take advantage of workers.
I've worked in my field for 15 years and am currently in a middle-management role, have a Master's degree, and a CPA license. I also work in a reasonably well-compensated area (Dallas-Ft. Worth). I had a recruiter call me on the way home the other day (completely unsolicited) and excitedly offer me $45k for a position. I restrained myself from laughing or saying something rude.
yea there is definitely something about DFW and employers lowballing people, I live in DFW also I just got off the job hunt....Dallas people are cheap or broke, I almost left the city because of it
@@ImJiom jesus, is that bad down there. Here in Canada where its all about natural resources its kinda hard for us. As we have to play the game but with the curve ball of our industry. Got a low ball offer while doing my internship and still need to finish school. problem is they are wanting full time for a low salary. I cant do that, unless they pay more. Then its worth wild to hustle and finish up school as well.
@@andrewchung83 lol no. If it's anywhere near that kind of salary a recruiter wouldn't lead with that as someone who has the skills to demand that much money a month usually gets showered with incentives that are far more valuable on the back end then a high salary.
This happened once to me, and if you are in a position to negotiate (I was), this is a good negotiation tactic: Tell them it's low, but don't counter with a number. Tell them again what your qualifications are, and tell THEM to go evaluate what you are worth for what they want in the market. Don't say no, don't say yes, just tell them it's wrong and they need to try again. When I did this, They increased their offer 30%.
The worst for me was getting offered roughly half of of the low end range of what I told the recruiter would work for me during the process. During the screening she said what I was asking for was within the range and didn't see an issue. I actually audibly let out a laugh when given the offer and declined, she asked if I wanted to counter and I just said we are way too far apart to be worth giving a counter. Really is disrespectful of a company to do that and I know at that point I did not want to work for them if they pulled this kind of nonsense right out of the gate.
Same thing happened to me last week! Hiring manager offered way lower than what the recruiter said was possible and they acted like my counter was crazy even though it still wasn’t the top of the range. They only came back with $3K more - I was like umm ok so basically you need a resent grad not someone with advanced degrees and almost a decade of experience. Disrespect is the right word here. And also tone deafness!!
Same thing! I was lowball so bad I didn’t even know it was possible. I was shocked that any firm with dignity would throw out such a low offer. For 5 years of experience, they gave me entry level pay. If I was employed, I would’ve said no thank you and left because. However I was unemployed, still slightly negotiated higher and had to accept the role but kept looking and 3 months later I accepted a similar role at 30% higher salary. I’m sure they low balled me because I was unemployed! Well now they lost an employee in 3 months right before the busiest time of year because they couldn’t pay market wage.
I had this happen: Dumb fuck HR goes out, gets a list of certs that lines up with what they want out of a candidate. Mention all the technologies in the certs but not the certs themselves... I have the prerequisite knowledge. I go for the onsite interview with the HR person and two people from other tech silo's. FIRST question: "I'm curious about the fact that the job posting has what looks to be copy / pasta from the Certification requirements but the actual certification isn't in the description itself. Does the salary range you have in mind reflect the fact that you included the knowledge area's but not the acknowledgement area's. Because I find that my peers, like myself, when we obtain said expertise that it's just customary to go ahead and get the industry certifications that go with it". The HR person squirmed, and the two tech people held up their hands like: 'You got us' and 'We told you so HR person'. I minced no words that I work in a small, well connected community and that I would let my peers know...
My experience is this: if you're being interviewed by the people you're going to be working with in the department, they will offer you an attractive deal because they will want happy collegues. If however, the budget is being set by someone you don't meet in person and won't be working alongside you...then you'll be lowballed and you just walk away. There won't be any negotiating.
That’s not really the reality as everyone works remotely especially post Covid. Many office spaces are cut or even doesn’t exist to save on the cost of having actual office space that’s not really needed and people can work more effectively saving time in actual commute and even eat healthy as one can cook at home vs eating out. The untalented old timers in mid level management who think the world for themselves may think like that. But in reality as long as you are capable, a rare talent who can offer a lot, the company continues to get affected from these untalented people who think like this that meeting in person is a necessity. Maybe this is why companies aren’t doing well. I mean I did the best work remotely. Sure meeting people once in a while also is nice. But a lot can be done remotely especially for cross border projects.
I answered an ad that clearly stated that the job paid $27 an hour. Got the interview and a follow up interview and was told that I was the only qualified candidate they found for the job. I got a call a few days later with a job offer with the pay rate of $22 an hour. I mentioned that the ad said $27 an hour. I bluntly told them that if the offer was anything less than $27 an hour I was not interested. We ended the call and less than an hour later got another call from the interviewer's boss with the $27 an hour offer. The interview was through an agency for the employer. I started the job and in less than 6 months later got a promotion and raise to $34 an hour. I have always been blunt and up front about pay when it comes to job offers. I usually get what I want.
The other day I was in a conference call with some others in my department. A senior engineer left a few weeks ago and they've been interviewing to find replacement. The hiring manager was asked how the search was going and she expressed frustration that the best candidate she spoke with wanted 20k more than her budget allowed, so she had to pass on him. I just thought that was interesting because since the pandemic began, my company has actually done really well. The CEO has mentioned it several times in All Employee meetings. So I found it intersting that they wouldn't even give a hiring manager the flexibility to hire the best candidates in a senior level position that was crucial to the success of our department.
The company is doing well because they aren't giving the company profits back to the employees. This means it's possible people leave due to not getting deserved raises and hence is also the reason why the hiring managers try their hardest pay the least to fill the job. As they say, sometimes "you get what you pay for".
Yes. Something I said in my main post here. Classic. The company is actually doing well, but refusing to re-invest in Senior Mngmnt position. And, of course, the candidates they interviewed and turned-down the Offers understood what I had voiced. It doesn't matter why the Budget is low bc there's tight funds or the higher-ups just don't want to invest, especially disturbing given the position is Sr. level....the problem is there and unlikely to go away. That is, until they have suffered serious fall-out from not getting a new hire on-board.
@@callileahrizzuto2290 All companies have competition. Maybe this companies competitors invest in top talent, that constitutes a market advantage in all times.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics is a great source, if you want pay data for job types and they even break it out by geographic region. I wish I could give this one two thumbs up!
You can always negotiate down...much harder to negotiate up. Last time I got low balled I simply said no and let them know what my absolute minimum was since the job was pretty interesting. They eventually offered me that after spending a bunch of time trying to justify the low ball. That killed it for me so my response was to say no again and walk out.
I had an unfortunate situation (for both myself and employer) where the employer wanted me, they knew my previous salary range but they purposely low balled me by almost 40K to save on wages. I loved the proposed work, the challenge and so decided to take the job. I solved a complex technical problem with a new piece of equipment they were previously unable to resolve. Three months later, I was head hunted by a recruiter - who was really persistent. I kept saying no until the offer became too good to refuse. As I handed in my resignation, the company I was at, instantly offered me another 30K to stay on. I apologised and moved on, staying on good terms. However, you think to yourself, you low ball me because you think your clever and save some money, relative to job and wages parity. Your willing to take the risk I'm not lured away by competing forces for labour. It costs everyone - employer - employee, time, money and dislocation when this happens. No one likes to move around unless they have to. It's more economic in the long term both for employer and employee to be fair.
Here’s my advice 1. Don’t be passive aggressive - it’s a negotiation - and don’t take it personally 2. Always be interviewing or open to interviews, you want multiple opportunities in hand if you want market rate 3. Ask what the position pays up front. Don’t be coy, say what you need 4. Try and get to the hiring manager as soon as possible 5. Don’t under value the soft components - culture, benefits, team members Remember: your the one looking to move, make sure you are selling yourself appropriately at each stage
I worked for a major employer that constantly low balled candidates with offers they would reject immediately. The employer wouldn’t budge so many of the candidates accepted anyway. Terrible strategy as the new hires made it clear they’re unhappy before they’ve even begun working & it always turned into a disaster in that scenario.
I'm in NYC and over the last 20 years I've attempted to negotiate 3 times. Each time I made a counter offer, the offer was summarily withdrawn. I'm in web development and I was offered basically entry money when I am at midrange. I agree with finding the number you are comfortable with because not everyone needs top dollar, some of us just need what the job is worth.
One of the reasons that I avoided web development is that you have to compete with tons of developers in India and there’s always a bean counter who’s ready to offshore or outsource those web dev jobs.
I was a qualified engineer with 5years experience. I moved countries and an employer offered me an intern technician salary (so about a third of what I was expecting!) because ‘we don’t know that your diploma is real’ I was surprised, especially since during interviews they had asked me numerous technical questions. Call the uni, it’s relatively well-known. Think they were just trying their luck and I walked away. Two weeks later I had another offer from someone else in my expected range.
Ha!! Why are they making you an Offer if your Education is so seriously suspect by them?? That's a Bad Employer trying to get something for nothing. Basically pushing your "Self-Esteem" button. Yeah....hard pass!
They can agree on a test phase (a longer one). Or you compromise on the first month, they will pay you less (and end it if you do not meet standards) but if they like what they see and keep you, the first month will be at higher rate. And if they are not able to evaluate your capabilities in the first month then they have no business being in business.
I got a lowball offer before, I didn’t even negotiate and just accepted on the spot. The manager even sounded a bit surprised. Because I know full well that i was going to another company and we were already late in the interview process. Ironically, the second day I started the first job I got the offer from the other company. What I thought was: if you lowball me, you can’t hate me for leaving you as soon as I got something else.
I am a senior level software engineer and have worked for 10 different companies in my 25 year long career. I have been offered an unacceptable pay packet only once during one of my multiple job offers. Most companies offered by at least 12% more than the job I was in the process of leaving. High quality companies don't play games with the candidates they want to hire because it will eventually backfire if they do.
I’ve interviewed at one place and everything went pretty well. I was offered the job the following day and the offer was so much lower than expected. It was so low that I almost didn’t respond to the offer. It kind of was an insult. I responded back and thanked them for their time and told them the offer was much lower than expected. I gave my counter offer and it was approved within a few hours.
This is excellent advice for the private sector. As someone looking to transition back to the public sector, though, I’m not sure how to navigate this. I’ve had some disrespectfully low offers and I know to expect a pay cut but even after researching for similar roles in the public sector in my area, they were $30K below market value. I even had one of their recruiters tell me the real range but apparently the departments are devaluing the roles. I’ve respectfully declined but it’s frustrating that in looking for more work life balance and good benefits, they think it’s reasonable to make entry level roles. And yet they’re shocked by the Great Resignation? Please 🤦🏻♀️
I work at a community college in wisconsin and I am paid 10k-12k below private market value. You can ask for more but majority of the time they are budgeted out for a certain range and will be hard to get past that. Its not that they dont see value in you just that getting more money is just really really hard.
@@VampyWorm in this case the employer overall approved the classification for a higher range but the department determined it was only within a certain scope for its needs. How is it they can always find tens of thousands more for certain roles in the same department but others they don’t. I asked how they determined the range of the recruiter told me it was actually higher. They said their offer was based on the average of other people. I was like??? So if a Fulbright scholar with more experience is a candidate you’re just going to pay them the same? Talk about low quality employer. If that’s the case they need to be 1) updating their job description to attract candidates who are not overqualified 2) be transparent about the range - after all, it’s a public employer. Sadly they are the most behind in hiring practices in many cases.
The non-profit sector is the worst offender in lowballing. They interview people as if they are going to be Supreme Court judges, and then make very lowball offers. You will encounter that lack of respect (and an attitude as if that's how God intended it to be, meaning, they seem unable to grasp that they are being disrespectful to you as a professional) a lot in the public and non-profit sector.
@@uacbpa yes I have seen this countless times in nonprofits across the country! And then they try to guilt you into acceptance otherwise you’re not “really in it for the cause.” 🙄 Yet when you look at what leadership is making and their demographics, the gaps are bad… they’re no more ethical than corporate
Many times if government is a large employer in the area departments will collude to keep wages low. Solution? Only work for the Fed’s or state/local governments that have strong union protections.
If I really really needed a job, I might take the lowball just to pay the bills in the interim, but keep looking. The lowballer doesn't deserve any more "loyalty" from you than they extend to you, so if they're willing to screw you over, return the favor if you have to. What these companies don't seem to get is that you can't price A Job any more than you can price A Car (new, used, wrecked, garage-kept, etc.). Say you have the same exact job (location, bennies, requirements, etc.), only one pays 40k, 60k, and 80k. You're feeling a bit queasy when you wake up. At the 80k job, you drag your ass out of bed, get dressed, and go to work, because you're valued, and you need to be there. You're taken seriously, so you take the job seriously At the 60k job, you might offer to work remotely, explaining that you're feeling sick, but would be willing to at least try to work, and put on a brave face. At the 40k job, you just reset your alarm to 8:59 and then call in sick when it sounds. How do these people making lowball offers NOT know that, or expect that?
Businesses do not care or know. At the leadership level they see a spreadsheet and a shareprice. The CEO is threatened to be fired by the shareholders if costs are NOT CUT TODAY! So they layoff essential people. .... meanwhile projects and work need to continue but without the money. The Excel spreadsheet says 66% of last year for each project so they outsource and get monkeys for peanuts and cross their fingers. If enough desperate out of work monkeys take it is a win for everyone but YOU! Shareprice goes back up and the cycle repeats
"Companies don't want those rejected offers" But they sure don't mind throwing current employees on the street if they aren't perfect. They'd rather throw it away than help to fix it.
It's a personal thing. They'd rather replace you than let you win. Because if you beat them, all the other employees will start getting ideas of their own. You need to establish real power over them to have any chance.
My brother was having this problem and the recruiter suggested to try for something other than money. He was able to negotiate a company car for him so that made the total offer acceptable.
I remember decades ago my dad a very experienced IT consultant being given a low ball off for a potential contract his immediate response was I don’t switch on the computer at that price! Needless to say the call ended very quickly.
I got a lowball offer and they called me twice to convince to take the job but kept offering me the same salary. Their idea was to flatter me but not offer me any more money. They offered me 40,000 when the salary range was 40 to 75,000. They would budge so neither did I . I took another position at another company that flattered me by offered a good salary.
My basic approach is if we are within 15 percent, I do the things you suggest and go from there. If it is 20% or more. I'm out. Don't even bother with a counter.
I had one that lowballed me by $20k. I had talked with the recruiter previously about salary expectations and was told they were in line with the job. I rejected the offer and didn't work with that recruiter anymore. I eventually got more than what I was asking for from somewhere else.
I also was lowballed by exactly $20k. I said no, they came back $10k higher. I said okay, then a few days later said nah I don’t want it. Obvi blackballed by them now but I was clear with recruiter from day 1 what I was looking for.
As Corey Wayne would say the strongest negotiating position is being able to walk away and mean it! Works for me. They either revise or you find something better.
Like what CCW says if you are not strong or alpha women and employers will simply not care. Some people need to take what is available and it is essential to be strong enough to do this first
I think it's insulting when companies email you for an interview and they say congratulations that they are giving you an interview....like as if I am supposed to be happy only to have the chance to talk to them....they never consider that maybe they should be glad that **I** am talking to them because I already have two job offers in hand potentially paying more
Just got lowballed 20k below what we had discussed would be acceptable. I was pissed and the recruiter was pissed at the company for misrepresenting what they were willing to pay. The recruiter told me not to accept. I like the idea of telling the company I’ll think about it and then ghosting them.
While I was between positions, I was working through a recruitment company and we kept getting nothing but positive feedback. Went through 5 interviews (7 total if you count the 2 interviews that they failed to show-up for) at this small company and never received an offer because they wanted to see how this 'other' candidate stacked up... but they kept having scheduling conflicts which just continuously kept delaying the offer. The recruitment company didn't want to start looking elsewhere since we were at the finish line (causing me to lone-wolf again). After a month of waiting, I accepted elsewhere for more pay and benefits that I preferred. I know I made the right choice simply because I'd probably be working twice as hard for a company that doesn't really appreciate heartbeats since they knew I was unemployed and probably felt like they could get me cheap. I simply miss the days when companies were about providing QUALITY service and bettering it's community. Now its just about the bare minimum service and bettering it's shareholders.
Your videos have been instrumental in refining my interviewing skills. This interview I will refer to was 2 days ago. Small company. No formal HR. No recruiter. Found myself with the Sr VP of Operations. Great interview. Offered the job on the spot. Was told to expect an offer that afternoon. We never spoke money so I let the offer letter take the lead. It was lower than I would take but also the job description didn't fit the title. I didn't panic. I took the day, met with friends and replied not with a decline, but an explanation of expectations, job title and pay not aligned. I was asked my salary requirements and did offer my initial acceptable range. End result, they responded with a 40% offer increase meeting my range. I only gave the range as I did expect them to meet it. And benefits too. Thanks. I just got my dream job.
@ShadowGJ almost 3 months in... a mutually beneficial relationship. Great career move. I have a 12 month time table... would have preferred 9 months. Waiting to see if the execs have are the problem. Tik tok
Location has a lot to do with salary. I live in small city in Ohio but only about 30 minutes from Pittsburgh, PA. Local steel mill wanted to talk to me because I had worked at a mill before as a software developer. I had a phone call with them and they said they could offer me up to 38K/year. I almost hung up on them. I work remote sitting in my house in shorts and t-shirt making 110K from a company based out of New York. My office is in Pittsburgh, PA though. Only been to office a time or two in a year. It's amazing how much 30 minutes to a bigger city can adjust your salary.
When was this offer of 38k per year ? I calculated 52 weeks with 40 hours, that is a bit over 2000 work hours (52 weeks). 38k gross amounts to 18,26 USD per hour. There are McDonalds that pay almost that much.
I wonder if they needed to "prove" that they could not find any U.S. developers so they would get visas for developers from India. The cure for that would be of course that any H1B1 visa position must at least pay 80k. Anything else is not that special in IT and they can find staff.
I remember applying to the local Publix to work as a cashier, and their offer was 12k a year for full-time work. This was in an area where the rent alone for a decent one-bedroom place was 1k a month. Truly ridiculous...
Well, it happened. I was shocked too... I was expecting 30k, and was instead comically lowballed. They wouldn't budge even after I told them I make 25k a year at my current job.@@Alan-jk1yi
Today I turned down an offer because the company lowballed. Disappointing cuz it sounded like a good opportunity, but I felt if I accepted their perception of my worth, ultimately I’m accepting it also. No thanks…NEXT!!
Back in 2021, I had applied to an EET position in Louisville, KY. They tried to offer me $14 per hour. I almost laughed into the phone at that. After a few minutes of trying to get them to bring that amount up to a realistic level, they didn't budge. So I told them "That isn't even worth continuing this conversation, have a nice day." The position went unfilled for almost a year until they finally listed the wage and brought it up to about double what they tried to offer me. Many of these employers are clowns.
The only time I've got a low-ball offer (to be fair, it wasn't even an offer at that point) - I already had 2 offers on the Table. With that company, the Interview had gone badly and I already knew I didn't really want to work for them (but y'know - if they pony up the right amount of cash...) Anyways - they gave their figure (which was a Salary band, but the highest figure was about $15K lower than the lowest offer I had on the table) - they started to go on about the Company again - and I just said "Look, I'm gonna stop you there. I already have offers on the Table that are $15K higher than your maximum. I don't want to waste your time, but I'm not the right person for this role", ended the interview, thanked them for their time and walked off. Was a great decision.
I had a company offer me 14$ an hour to drive forklift for them. I didn't handle it professionally, and just walked out the door before he even finished talking. That being said, there is no positive negotiation that can result from such a drastically difference of opinion in worth.
A wise man once said "Money I don't spend, I don't have to earn...." Another one said "A man with savings can walk tall." After having been in a position to have to take the first offer coming along, I will never be in that situation again.
I have two methods of solving this. One saying “bitch please.” And hanging up the phone on the job offer and the other just getting up out of the chair in their office and seeing myself out.
I had a recruiter try to push me to accept $40K less than I was currently making, and the health benefits package was the same as ACA health insurance. ($13K premium with $10K deductible) To add on top of this they offered no vacation, and it was a year with the opportunity to move to permanent. They were looking for a principal engineer with 15 years+ experience. I told them "First year grads will not accept that offer. Please don't even call me back with a counter offer."
I liked the video, my wife just went through this with a recent job offer. Would you consider doing a video on how to value the various parts of the total compensation package as you mentioned in this one? Perhaps also an overview of the benefits that are typically being offered like bonus, retirement plans, insurance, PTO, stock options, etc
An honest company will provide that information to you up front. The others will spring it on you after you are on the property. If they cant give it to you prior to accepting an offer, run, dont walk away.
Very good point on looking at the total compensation package, vs just looking at base pay. This was why I accepted my employer's counter offer. (I work for a small business and like my job, but had an opportunity for a similar role at a large healthcare corperation.) While they couldnt match the basepay of thr other company, they got me close enough, kept me hourly instead of moving to salary, and threw in a company vehicle and education opportunities. Not having to maintain a vehicle or pay for gas was huge. That and thr ability to still get overtime for hours worked over 40 were able to bridge that gap.
I handed in my resignation at job A because job B led me to believe I had the job and the price we negotiated during the interview was acceptable. Later they called me saying congratulations you got the job then low balled me almost $10K under the discussed price. It’s such a scumbag thing to do and I’ve lost all respect for the company. I’m now thinking to take the job, just to sabotage them.
I'm wondering how this is going to work in the future. Offers are going up because the labor market is tight right now, but you can bet the farm that employers are going to try to get some of that money back in the future by laying off the most expensive workers in their salary bands at the first signs of a recession.
I think it's already happening. They are starting to implement "new models" and try to make them look cool, like "unlimited vacation", no retirement or health insurance. Companies are always going to try to give as least as possible and get as much as possible, but there are reasons why some things are regulated and mandated by law.
The offers going up piece is not universal and I wonder how broadly applied it really is. Many places that experienced layoffs or economic setbacks from the pandemic have tightened their belts so my colleagues and I are also seeing lowball offers coming through big time. It’s a mess 🤦🏻♀️
My tactic would be to learn as many skills as possible and make myself so indispensable so that whey (or if) they try to lay me off to "save money", my absence would hurt them more than the money they saved, and I would have picked up many marketable skills.
That strategy will have a shelf life as demographics are against it. The labor pool is shrinking due to all the Boomers retiring. The upside of being Gen X is that I’m there with experience when they’re all gone and there’s not enough of us to go around. Millennials are once again unfortunate; this time as part of a large cohort.
I have had 2 recruiters call me with jobs that were not offering competitive pay. The more experienced one was trying to convince them they were in the wrong range. The other one was laughable and the recruiter was very new. In that case I told him he was looking for a fresh graduate or intern.
If I still want to work there, I typically will counter-offer with a different mix of work conditions. This could be a 30-hour week, extra vacation, split employment, no travel, WFH, etc.
I suggested to them to keep the sign on bonus and I'll work part-time if they really need somebody. If you sign a sign on bonus they'll pay you that money upfront but you are stuck with them for however many years. Make it work for you!! Don't get stuck with a company you don't like because you agreed to a sign on bonus. And if they stick with their low ball offer suggest something else like PT or PRN (if you really need the money) and work with them until you find something better.
I've accepted lots of low ball offers because it seems like I'm always desperate for the next job. That's what sucks about contract work, especially when you have anxiety.
I tell you how I address a lowball offer..... find a NEW "physical address" for a NEW "potential employer". . . . If your insulted in the hiring process. . . . then right out of the gate they've "set the precedent" for the future working relationship ! !
I took a low ball offer. I was told I'd "be home more." I'd be able to "spend more time with my family." "The benefits are great!" -- Turned out I rarely knew in advance when I would be home. I actually was home more, but I only knew I was going to be home after the fact. Planning became impossible. And the benefits were actually worse than the job I had left. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but a life lesson I had to learn at the time.
I've walked out of a negotiation for that. I told them that's an "ass-scratching salary", because for that price, that's all an employee is going to do at work. I know some of their current employees, I wasn't wrong
A lowball offer is often a predictor of future possibilities as well as management culture. It reminds me of counters. If they valued someone enough before they were leaving, they'd have paid them that already, so it's time to move on. It's similar with lowballs. If they are parsimonious now, they will be later. Thank them for their time and move on.
I received a job offer with 40% more compensation, 100% remote and it was way easier. The counter offer was 10% salary increase, with up to 40% in the next 12 months from my then-employer. I left immediately. Managers should know how to value their employees - if they're valuable, be proactive and raise their payrates. A 20% increase would kept me from seeking the job marketplaces. I've heard from ex-colleagues they've hired some pumpkins that were doing sh*t after me. And were paid 15% more due to inflation. When I was hiring some freelancers for my small agencies, I would always have a big list of requirements but pay well.
3 ways *_not_* to handle a lowball: 1. Pretend the offer is a lump sum signing bonus and ask for the "actual" salary 2. Remind the other person that you applied for [position X], not [position X]-intern 3. Laugh uproariously, then casually mention that their offer is half of [competitor name]'s
One of the issues i always find with "look at what youre worth" is that.. a lot of the time the information just isnt out there. I have a position i just applied to and i dont even have a ballpark of what its worth in my market because less and less companies seem to be posting wages with job listings
@@ALifeAfterLayoff did you? You mentioned glassdoor, but to take it with a grain of salt, and you mentioned comparably (I think that's what you said). I'm struggling with this myself, because there doesn't seem to be a consistent number. Also, comparably was WAY off (high) on the averages for my company.
That's annoying not naming the salary, like when you look at cars for sale in the classifieds and they don't say how many miles or the asking price. I'm not calling for a heap of junk nor a car that is out of my price range.
I hate the phrase, no. Its not what youre worth. Your WORTH is not how much you make. Its better to think of it “ how much is YOUR Skill (apart from other) in that job role worth.
(With apologies to Life After Layoff) I noticed a couple of years ago that a lot of employers have gotten crafty with writing Job Titles and Descriptions to make it difficult for candidates to do their homework.
I also factor in the kind of raises and promotions I could expect in the future. Certain companies are notorious for not offering raises, particularly consulting companies.
That happened to me 3 times. Every time I simply sent an email saying that I refused the offer as it was not up to my expectations which was talked about during the interviews and that I hoped that they can find the right person for their salary expectations. They all came back to me offering me exactly what I asked for in the interview within a week.
So they just try ... and risk losing an employee soon. But of course they expect the other staff members to pick up on the extra work. And then rinse and repeat.
This just happened to me. Was not even close to what the range was (I asked). I said no immediately. Did not want to negotiate or pursue since it wasn’t even close to the original discussion, so the misleading angle was not a trait I want in an employer.
Thanks! Your channel is helping me so much. I’ve struggled with confidence in the work arena and it’s so helpful to just have a better understanding of the culture.
I had a low ball offer in the past, I said I was disappointed, that I wanted this to work but the offer was too low and then I left. While I was was still leaving the building I got a call saying they would email me a revised offer and to go back there the next day to iron out the details. The offer was significantly better and I accepted it.
I gotta disagree with this strategy of 'looking at the market' for what you're worth. You really should be avoiding giving a direct number when you are negotiating. This is a poker game, and at the end of it, you are worth exactly the number you ask for, period. With the strategy of matching market averages, I've only seen other devs ask for less than what they are worth. For example, I currently make 15k more than a friend of mine who has 10 years more experience on me, all because i asked for more than him. Its as simple as that. You need to understand that the budget for your position is vastly different than what the number is that you end up saying, and you inevitably screw yourself over once you say a number. Dont use numbers, ask questions. Whats the budget for the role? Point it at them. Anecdotal story: Friend of a friend worked at amazon, hated it. Was at about 3 years there and needed to leave, Maybe about 150-180k a year salary. They line up a new job and give their notice, and amazon asks "what will it take to keep you around?". He jokingly says "i dont know, a million dollars", thinking that was ridiculous enough for them to not humor it, but they come back and say 'listen, we cant do a million, but what do you think about 500k?' Imagine that...3 years at 180 when you could have been at 500.... Moral of the story: Always ask for more. Who cares what glassdoor says, get more than that.
My entire life has been lowball offers. So much so, each and every time, that I have been unable to afford to improve my skills. Luckily I'm smart at these things and know how to push back.
The opportunity works both ways. You are giving up your most valued possession. TIME is also known as LIFE. In exchange for money that may or not lead you help you to have a better living which in turn will likely increase the life you have left. Or may lower it if you end up overworked, over drama, and under paid. Is up to you to determine how much you value your life. And if the money given is worth the amount life you will lose in the deal.
I recently took a very interesting HR corse on salary. I was taught that different companies have different salary policies relative to the market. The companiesspend thousandsbuying salary data. For example, Intel has a policy of paying at the top of the market and a non profit might pay at 3/4ths.
3:54 - Geo location is just another type of lowball. What if I move to an area where the living cost is lower ? Should I get paid less ? What if it is higher ? Should I get paid more ? Adapting the wages for a location shows me that you want to optimize your budget, but some of those recruiters out there use this tool wrong. 6:03 - Yes, I am probably in the top 10%. Also Hacker Rank or other similar sites are not a good benchmark, as most of businesses revolve around application building and not algorithmic solutions. Now, if you are searching for a niche category of jobs, like data engineer or maybe a position in a financial institution, where they rely heavily on statistics and their applications need to squeeze every millimeter of performance, than yes, knowing data structures and their usages inside out can prove to be very very handy. But again, that is a very niche category in software development. The pay is also better (on average, +30-40%) 6:52 - Most people don't know this because people are super iffy about talking salaries openly. So it is hard to asses an average baseline. 7:59 - Contractors do this a lot better than people who have been only employees. I know this because I've been both and interacted with both from both sides. 8:26 - This is another hard subject, because a lot of job offers are written incompletely and some just straight up lie. 9:06 - You can afford this if you have no obligations. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, especially with this whole spectacle the last 2 years. 10:03 - Nice :)
I've had some pretty bad lowball offers when I was job hunting while wrapping up my MBA. One company didn't even allow me to know what the actual offer was until after I accepted which turned out to be $10k below what was discussed. Even then it was already well below market to begin with and just insulting. The most ridiculous must have been a company that wanted me to essentially run multiple depts by myself on top of a massive project for well over $50k under the value of the position. By far the most insulting thing I wasted my time on.
Over the last year I've been contacted by different recruiters who are trying to fill the same job, but are replaced by the hiring company because they're unsuccessful at filling the position due to lowball offers.
The only acceptable response to an extremely lowball offer is to ghost them. They make the offer. You 'thoughtfully' ask them for some time to consider it. Then avoid their calls like the plague until they stop. That way, they feel what it is like to get ghosted, and they end up ghosting one less person that was up for the position that they offered to you.
I was lowballed so much by so many companies, so many times, that I just started just walking away and rethinking the companies I was choosing to apply. I think lowballing can be perceived as a form of discrimination. Some companies might think that because you are of a certain ethnicity, that "you should be happy with this much we pay", "that's enough for your people", or "they don't need that much money". I've seen that done to others, and have experienced that myself. In one interview they made a ridiculous low offer, and I just said "ha ha!", stood up and walked away. Never looked back. That lowballing thing, to me, it's a sign of the kind of people I will be working with/for. I find it insulting and disrespectful.
I did a Zoom interview with the department chair, HR, and CEO. They sent an offer without me coming in to do a sit down. After touring the place, I was puzzled by the low offer. Told the recruiter I'd pass because I didn't think they were serious. Currently, I entertaining an offer where the base salary is good, because it's the lowest I would go. However, the retirement benefit requires a vesting period (5+ yrs), which can't be negotiated.
I got myself in such situation with lower cool sounding offer in game dev, and good offer for much more money. I spent my whole weekend into trying to decide and finally what made me decide was me imagining what would be to take that lower offer and to think would I be satisfied. The position would have been for less money AND with more pressure, so I imagined what would be in the end of the month to get so much less money after I pushed so hard, and the decision became obvious. Putting on top that I already have my own game project, despite with prolonged development because of insufficient time, made me take the decision without any regret. It is really the moment, that you feel that just that decision is actually important.
One big tip. Never negotiate with the people that do the first interview. Only negotiate with the people that deal with your salary. When you discussing with the folks during your first interview they are going to find a way to disqualify you and that would be through your salary.
I would recommend that you always negotiate for salary vs benefits as benefits can easily be changed after the fact, How many times have you heard about companies cutting benefits like 401k match, charging more for health insurance, reneging on work from home privileges, etc?
I just had the opposite happen to me. They have offered me 25 grand more than I asked for. I accepted it, but now I'm terrified about what they are going to expect of me.
@@moabman6803 it's going pretty good. Planning on asking for a promotion in my next quarterly interview. I think I'm the lowest paid in my team by a significant amount.
About a year and a half ago I was interviewing for 3 jobs; 2 offering $85k, which was $35k more than I'd been making at my last job, and I was done with 3rd interviews for them and another job I didn't know the rate yet. Something outside my and the recruiters control happened with the first 2 jobs (company acquisition and former employee coming back to the role last minute) so I was down to the last one. They came back saying the role was $65k, but with bonuses it'd be about $72k and I'd get stock in the company, but while having to come into the office I was going to be driving 70 miles a day (fortunately later I was strictly working remote). I'd been out of work for months, was getting desperate for income, and had to take the role though I wasn't happy with it. After a year I was being told because of my skills I was looking at being promoted, but instead the manager decided to create a project new team doing entirely different work than what was in my job description, no title change and no raise. I was then told in a few months when raises happen something was going to change, but the only thing that did was "you're getting a $1/hr raise" followed by maybe something happening in 6 months. I got tired of waiting, updated my resume with a few new skills I'd picked up at the company, and I'm currently interviewing for roles offering 2-3 times what I'm being paid now. So while it didn't feel good having to settle for a lower pay, and I didn't plan on staying with the company longer than 2 years anyway, I'm hoping to get a job offer in the next few days for at least double what I'm making now.
Excellent video - all the software engineers preening in the comments about lowball offers don't seem to have listened to it closely, I realized that my skills aren't valued as highly as I thought, so I'm going to take the lowball (after looking at the total package and negotiating where the company has flexibility) and then work my ass off and look for a new job in 6-12 months, I'll also try to up and cross skill after hours so I've got some more to offer to the next company.
Hmmm- interesting strategy, it might work out in the long run, playing that long game.....You grind it, increase your value and start looking again. Meanwhile, socking away money, paying off debt....etc.....Maybe hitting the gym.......a new suit....
My last lowball was $30k under what we discussed. I was very frustrated cause I'd asked another good offer to wait a week. The minute I saw that offer, I called the other company, accepted their good offer, then immediately turned down the low one. They called and tried to negotiate up, NOPE. It's a big issue of disrespect for me. It's insulting.
Yes! Especially when the job is asking for too damn much lmao, and they are trying to lowball you
I agree 100% It's just downright disrespectful that they expect you to work for a lot less that you're valued. It's also a good indicator of the kind of people you might be working with.
It's a negotiation. Why wouldn't you play the game?
@@ThePrimeMinisterOfTheBlock you have to be in the ballpark to play the game
@@verepainelistens1459 fair call
The risk of lowballing an employee is that they'll just join your company/team but continue actively looking for jobs. Meanwhile, as a company, you're devoting all kinds of energy and effort training these new hires, incurring a cost, and if six months later they get an offer from another company willing to go above and beyond the going market rate, not only do you lose your new hire, but you also lost the investment of time and money to train them in the company's internal processes without getting much of an ROI. It gets even worse if that low balled new hire is in a senior position and working on critical projects, where if they leave, it would make or break the project.
Very true. And this is something that low-ballers clearly lack vision of understanding.
in general i find that this applies even in situations of retaining already veteran employees. I have yet to have a dev job where i feel like the company was concerned with keeping me around over saving themselves money. Its sad for them, im glad to always leave.
I did some contract work where they hired in a new manager for an IT group. The organization is a revolving door from what I've seen. This hire was a firecracker with about 10% grade a a-hole mixed in. Of course they were lowballed. Took the job, worked there for 12 weeks and told every single upper management what he thought and moved onto a job paying $100K more.
It was epic and spot on.
Exactly, there are a lot people that will go through the training process just to get a check will continuing to apply at other companies.
Not to mention the money the company spent on advertising the position and also paid the head hunters that found the candidate.
When you accept a lowball offer you reinforce the employers belief that they are offering a reasonable amount.
Or you can take it for the time being (if you’re unemployed) and keep looking for a new role and leave for a new company asap. Can say it was $ and a new opportunity when you tell your boss why you’re leaving. They usually know why people w low ball offers leave.
They know they are low, they just don't care. They feel there is a big enough pool to draw from they don't have to care. They also don't tend to care about experience. These same people would gladly hire someone just out of college rather than an experienced individual. Ask anyone in Healthcare about this.
I might not even show up the 1st day of work to this job. The gas prices just increased up to $5.07 for 3/4ths of a gallon. It's not worth it. On top of that I have to buy the pants, shoes and not to mention worthless food Handlers card.
Nah, they know they are offering crap.
Yeah, while you're begging relatives for rent money...
I recently got an interview, they asked me the salary I was expecting, I said something in the range of 40 to 45k. They said its fair, they where thinking pf giving me 47k even. Then I said ok, when the job pffer came after the second interview, I was surprised they said they wanted to give me 59k. I couldnt believe it, they said they wanted to make sure I got payed enough because they didnt want me to leave after a couple months.
I obviously took it, they are a great company, and that just proved it to me
This situation has happened to me twice. It was funny because I am on the phone while they are making the offer and trying hard to be cool while thinking......HOW MUCH???? OMFG WOW WOW WOW. That is such a good feeling.
@@ImJiom something similar just happened to me. Sure i did have to pass up another great offer, with possibly also great opportunity for personal development, but yes it does feel great, like finally my worth is validated.
...but then it also leave a bad taste in my mouth since i then realize how deeply i was lowballed by my former employer, one i did worked for more than half a decade, from when it was a start up until many rounds of secondary subscriptions from few capital venture.
Good teams know to build a relationship with their partners, not to push for seemingly good bargains.
Good!
That’s wonderful, congrats!
I got lowballed with an offer that was 20k lower than my current salary. At that point I even told them what my current salary was just to drive home the point. The recruiter proceeded to berate me by claiming they don't want people who only care about money anyway. I was like, 20k less means my family has to cut down on food. You're a multi-billion dollar corporation who wants to short me 20k, and I'm the one who only cares about money?
WHAT!!!!???? Money is the whole point of working. I can't believe they said that to you. Also, it is poor form to berate a interviewee for any reason.
The response to that recruiter is "what money"?
When you are young and single, or maybe its just you and your gf, you can afford to slack off on pay to persue your passions in your carreer, but after you have a kid, everything changes. Your number one priority is your family, You made the right choice
Well said
Is not caring about money. Is caring about your time. How much you value the time you are giving vs the money they are giving.
At the end of day. Time is life. You are giving a part of your life. And you know what that part of your life is worth for you.
From personal experience, a low ball offer is a clear indication of how the potential employer feels about you. Sure they want your experience, but their needs to cut costs come first. I remember being told "you are so rare, its so hard to find Front End Developers these days", and then being offered the chance to start up a department and get juniors / interns a later stage. I was offered a junior salary after all that praise. I immediately rejected the offer with no tolerance for negotiation (the recruiter was very eager). Perhaps I was being brash. But then again, if they offered so little for so much responsibility, what other surprises awaited me if I had taken the role?
I consider this to be a red flag to be honest. it definitely falls under that category but in a subtle way. A good company values your worth and treats you as an investment rather than a means to an end. My second employer tripled my salary (over what I had asked for) after my test results to secure me. That's a clear sign of being valued and appreciated.
For a mere javascript kiddie, that's an impressive result. You must have talent. Why not join the real developers in the back end?
@@ThePrimeMinisterOfTheBlock JavaScript kiddie? Typical back end who doesn't understand UX.
@@ThePrimeMinisterOfTheBlock I have worked in backend before, PHP and business intelligence (MSSQL and databases). Just because you can do something doesn't mean you enjoy it. I actually enjoy Front end development and I'm able to maintain a relative work life balance. I have friends in backend who were experiencing burnout and hair loss because of the nature of their roles. No thanks 😂
@@jonmayer lol he's using the age old Dev joke that Front end developers aren't real developers. It's ok I have heard that many times lol.
If i were you shut up take the offer and put up with it . In the same time job hunt a new and better one that comes by and then give your letter and go.
After going through 3 rounds of interviews, the recruiter pulled a bait-and-switch and offered me the role at a level 2 titles below what was discussed before the whole process began. I was furious, since it was a waste of my time, as well as theirs. They tried hard to justify this with some fuzzy logic on "years of experience" which didn't even match the titles people internally had (Linkedin shows all this), and I called them out on it (respectfully). Said I wouldn't budge, so she checked with the hiring manager again. Walked away, and wound up at a company with a role 2 titles higher than I was aiming for. So, I netted 4 titles higher than this offer, just two weeks later. Don't be afraid to know your value and walk away.
THAT HAPPENED TO ME. I was supposed to start temporary at a local utility company as a substation designer. I interviewed with the client, then after the client agreed to bring me on board, the temp agency switched the title to document manager. Then later, the temp agency said the job is on hold. HURRAY, I'm so glad I don't have to work for that awful temp agency. The client was great, very nice, but the temp agency, they were awful.
@@solarwinds- I wouldn't be surprised if they told you doc manager but were billing the client at the designer rate....it's definitely possible I have seen crazier stuff.
“Low quality employers tend to be low quality for a reason.” -> agree
Agreed
Saving this one
I did accept a lowball offer because nobody was really hiring during the pandemic and the job was a hybrid position close to my home. I was still interviewing for other positions while I worked my lowball job. The lowball job was fun and I learned several new technologies while working. Eventually, another recruiter was able to find a much higher paying job and I explained to my boss that I wasn’t making enough money for my experience and skill set. They still haven’t replaced me since I left according to my former coworkers.
Your boss got what they deserved for pay you a low wage. GOOD FOR YOU.
Look at GM who complained they just couldn't get the people for their new battery plant. These are reasonably high tech engineering jobs got to be on the ball or the end product will be poor and maybe dangerous . The pay they are offering is pretty much the same as woking at McDonalds.
This happened to me a few years back. Got an offer that I didn’t like, but at the time I was laid off and needed a gig. Luckily I was getting pretty far down the interview path with other companies. So, I accepted the low ball offer, began the background check knowing that if I worked there - it would be short lived.
Fortunately, I got a much better offer from another company and declined the first role. I was transparent and flat out said that the offer wasn’t competitive enough. They weren’t happy but I don’t care. 😀
Nor should you care. Why show any loyalty to people that would lowball you?
Employers are actually never happy. #selfinterest
Good. You're a free agent and you have no moral obligation of loyalty. Especially since the company wouldn't think twice about moral implications of firing you. Let's be real.
@@patmarek1222 Amen 😃
Nor should you care. We are all free agents.
I once had a super lowball offer which was about half of my expectation being made in the first interview. When I told the person that the offer is too low, she started yelling at me and was borderline insulting. At that point I just grabbed my resume from her dest, told her to delete my data from her IT-system (where I live there is a law that requires companies to do so, if you request it) and left. She kept yelling something like "I'll make sure you never find a job" after me, but I just ignored her. 2 Months later I got a job where they were happy to meet my expectation despite me giving them an even higher number as I was expecting them to lowball me too.
You dodged a cannonball lol
In Colorado, employees are required to post the real pay range in the job description. No nonsense, no lying to people, and no wasting everyone's time. NY is putting this into effect shortly as well. This should just be a Federal law so that companies can't take advantage of workers.
This will make harder for workers to get offers.
“We’re moving our main operations overseas and we’ll only keep the regional customer relations dept in US”
Texas need’s this
The only problem is that everyone will want the very top of the range, which will have employers lower the ranges overall.
It is in CA too
I've worked in my field for 15 years and am currently in a middle-management role, have a Master's degree, and a CPA license. I also work in a reasonably well-compensated area (Dallas-Ft. Worth). I had a recruiter call me on the way home the other day (completely unsolicited) and excitedly offer me $45k for a position.
I restrained myself from laughing or saying something rude.
yea there is definitely something about DFW and employers lowballing people, I live in DFW also I just got off the job hunt....Dallas people are cheap or broke, I almost left the city because of it
@@ImJiom jesus, is that bad down there. Here in Canada where its all about natural resources its kinda hard for us. As we have to play the game but with the curve ball of our industry. Got a low ball offer while doing my internship and still need to finish school. problem is they are wanting full time for a low salary. I cant do that, unless they pay more. Then its worth wild to hustle and finish up school as well.
@@andrewchung83 lol no. If it's anywhere near that kind of salary a recruiter wouldn't lead with that as someone who has the skills to demand that much money a month usually gets showered with incentives that are far more valuable on the back end then a high salary.
i mean, i would have laughed
hard
You're a lot nicer than I am!! lol
This happened once to me, and if you are in a position to negotiate (I was), this is a good negotiation tactic: Tell them it's low, but don't counter with a number. Tell them again what your qualifications are, and tell THEM to go evaluate what you are worth for what they want in the market. Don't say no, don't say yes, just tell them it's wrong and they need to try again.
When I did this, They increased their offer 30%.
Hmmmm, food for thought.
Wow, I will try it
They completed their homework assignment. They may have been checking to see if you knew the right number.
The worst for me was getting offered roughly half of of the low end range of what I told the recruiter would work for me during the process. During the screening she said what I was asking for was within the range and didn't see an issue. I actually audibly let out a laugh when given the offer and declined, she asked if I wanted to counter and I just said we are way too far apart to be worth giving a counter. Really is disrespectful of a company to do that and I know at that point I did not want to work for them if they pulled this kind of nonsense right out of the gate.
Same thing happened to me last week! Hiring manager offered way lower than what the recruiter said was possible and they acted like my counter was crazy even though it still wasn’t the top of the range. They only came back with $3K more - I was like umm ok so basically you need a resent grad not someone with advanced degrees and almost a decade of experience. Disrespect is the right word here. And also tone deafness!!
Counter with twice the high end of your range, they'll get the message
Same thing! I was lowball so bad I didn’t even know it was possible. I was shocked that any firm with dignity would throw out such a low offer. For 5 years of experience, they gave me entry level pay. If I was employed, I would’ve said no thank you and left because. However I was unemployed, still slightly negotiated higher and had to accept the role but kept looking and 3 months later I accepted a similar role at 30% higher salary. I’m sure they low balled me because I was unemployed! Well now they lost an employee in 3 months right before the busiest time of year because they couldn’t pay market wage.
I had this happen:
Dumb fuck HR goes out, gets a list of certs that lines up with what they want out of a candidate. Mention all the technologies in the certs but not the certs themselves...
I have the prerequisite knowledge. I go for the onsite interview with the HR person and two people from other tech silo's. FIRST question:
"I'm curious about the fact that the job posting has what looks to be copy / pasta from the Certification requirements but the actual certification isn't in the description itself. Does the salary range you have in mind reflect the fact that you included the knowledge area's but not the acknowledgement area's. Because I find that my peers, like myself, when we obtain said expertise that it's just customary to go ahead and get the industry certifications that go with it".
The HR person squirmed, and the two tech people held up their hands like: 'You got us' and 'We told you so HR person'.
I minced no words that I work in a small, well connected community and that I would let my peers know...
@@ThePrimeMinisterOfTheBlock That's a great one! I'll try it if the circumstances are right.
My experience is this: if you're being interviewed by the people you're going to be working with in the department, they will offer you an attractive deal because they will want happy collegues. If however, the budget is being set by someone you don't meet in person and won't be working alongside you...then you'll be lowballed and you just walk away. There won't be any negotiating.
THISSSSSS
A lowball offer creates resentment from all employees with a below market rate (which could be everyone on your level).
Oh, that is such a good point!!! Thank you for that John rothwell!!! Good point.
That’s not really the reality as everyone works remotely especially post Covid. Many office spaces are cut or even doesn’t exist to save on the cost of having actual office space that’s not really needed and people can work more effectively saving time in actual commute and even eat healthy as one can cook at home vs eating out. The untalented old timers in mid level management who think the world for themselves may think like that. But in reality as long as you are capable, a rare talent who can offer a lot, the company continues to get affected from these untalented people who think like this that meeting in person is a necessity. Maybe this is why companies aren’t doing well. I mean I did the best work remotely. Sure meeting people once in a while also is nice. But a lot can be done remotely especially for cross border projects.
OK.
I answered an ad that clearly stated that the job paid $27 an hour. Got the interview and a follow up interview and was told that I was the only qualified candidate they found for the job. I got a call a few days later with a job offer with the pay rate of $22 an hour. I mentioned that the ad said $27 an hour. I bluntly told them that if the offer was anything less than $27 an hour I was not interested. We ended the call and less than an hour later got another call from the interviewer's boss with the $27 an hour offer. The interview was through an agency for the employer. I started the job and in less than 6 months later got a promotion and raise to $34 an hour. I have always been blunt and up front about pay when it comes to job offers. I usually get what I want.
The other day I was in a conference call with some others in my department. A senior engineer left a few weeks ago and they've been interviewing to find replacement. The hiring manager was asked how the search was going and she expressed frustration that the best candidate she spoke with wanted 20k more than her budget allowed, so she had to pass on him. I just thought that was interesting because since the pandemic began, my company has actually done really well. The CEO has mentioned it several times in All Employee meetings.
So I found it intersting that they wouldn't even give a hiring manager the flexibility to hire the best candidates in a senior level position that was crucial to the success of our department.
The company is doing well because they aren't giving the company profits back to the employees. This means it's possible people leave due to not getting deserved raises and hence is also the reason why the hiring managers try their hardest pay the least to fill the job. As they say, sometimes "you get what you pay for".
It's all about upper management bonuses and pay. It's zero sum and it's all about them.
Yes. Something I said in my main post here. Classic. The company is actually doing well, but refusing to re-invest in Senior Mngmnt position. And, of course, the candidates they interviewed and turned-down the Offers understood what I had voiced. It doesn't matter why the Budget is low bc there's tight funds or the higher-ups just don't want to invest, especially disturbing given the position is Sr. level....the problem is there and unlikely to go away. That is, until they have suffered serious fall-out from not getting a new hire on-board.
Start looking.
@@callileahrizzuto2290 All companies have competition. Maybe this companies competitors invest in top talent, that constitutes a market advantage in all times.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics is a great source, if you want pay data for job types and they even break it out by geographic region. I wish I could give this one two thumbs up!
Thanks for the info
That info is outdated and will probably be too low.
BLS is very outdated and a poor data source in general.
Inflation has been insane the last couple years and the BLS is behind. Add about...20% to what they have on there.
It’s still good for historic context & info relative to other profession
You can always negotiate down...much harder to negotiate up.
Last time I got low balled I simply said no and let them know what my absolute minimum was since the job was pretty interesting. They eventually offered me that after spending a bunch of time trying to justify the low ball. That killed it for me so my response was to say no again and walk out.
Your anecdote is more helpful than you may realize. It sounds like you listened to your gut which is almost always right.
Exactly my experience
Good for you. Zero tolerance for disrespect.
I’m work in STEM. I ignore lowball job offers like I’m on Craigslist. I’m not going to waste my time with a company that wants to pay 30% under market
I had an unfortunate situation (for both myself and employer) where the employer wanted me, they knew my previous salary range but they purposely low balled me by almost 40K to save on wages.
I loved the proposed work, the challenge and so decided to take the job. I solved a complex technical problem with a new piece of equipment they were previously unable to resolve. Three months later, I was head hunted by a recruiter - who was really persistent. I kept saying no until the offer became too good to refuse.
As I handed in my resignation, the company I was at, instantly offered me another 30K to stay on. I apologised and moved on, staying on good terms.
However, you think to yourself, you low ball me because you think your clever and save some money, relative to job and wages parity.
Your willing to take the risk I'm not lured away by competing forces for labour. It costs everyone - employer - employee, time, money and dislocation when this happens. No one likes to move around unless they have to. It's more economic in the long term both for employer and employee to be fair.
Here’s my advice
1. Don’t be passive aggressive - it’s a negotiation - and don’t take it personally
2. Always be interviewing or open to interviews, you want multiple opportunities in hand if you want market rate
3. Ask what the position pays up front. Don’t be coy, say what you need
4. Try and get to the hiring manager as soon as possible
5. Don’t under value the soft components - culture, benefits, team members
Remember: your the one looking to move, make sure you are selling yourself appropriately at each stage
I worked for a major employer that constantly low balled candidates with offers they would reject immediately. The employer wouldn’t budge so many of the candidates accepted anyway. Terrible strategy as the new hires made it clear they’re unhappy before they’ve even begun working & it always turned into a disaster in that scenario.
The new hires will keep job hunting.
I'm in NYC and over the last 20 years I've attempted to negotiate 3 times. Each time I made a counter offer, the offer was summarily withdrawn. I'm in web development and I was offered basically entry money when I am at midrange. I agree with finding the number you are comfortable with because not everyone needs top dollar, some of us just need what the job is worth.
Sounds like you dodged some bullets then.
@@ALifeAfterLayoff I agree
i dont like to nego , if the company waste my time no plan. im out
One of the reasons that I avoided web development is that you have to compete with tons of developers in India and there’s always a bean counter who’s ready to offshore or outsource those web dev jobs.
@@picklerix6162 very true
I was a qualified engineer with 5years experience. I moved countries and an employer offered me an intern technician salary (so about a third of what I was expecting!) because ‘we don’t know that your diploma is real’ I was surprised, especially since during interviews they had asked me numerous technical questions. Call the uni, it’s relatively well-known. Think they were just trying their luck and I walked away. Two weeks later I had another offer from someone else in my expected range.
Ha!! Why are they making you an Offer if your Education is so seriously suspect by them??
That's a Bad Employer trying to get something for nothing. Basically pushing your "Self-Esteem" button.
Yeah....hard pass!
I can't believe they said that to you. How insulting. I would have told them, "I'm not sure your company is REAL".
They were hoping you were a gifted down on their luck immigrant that they could take advantage of. Disgusting.
They can agree on a test phase (a longer one). Or you compromise on the first month, they will pay you less (and end it if you do not meet standards) but if they like what they see and keep you, the first month will be at higher rate. And if they are not able to evaluate your capabilities in the first month then they have no business being in business.
I got a lowball offer before, I didn’t even negotiate and just accepted on the spot. The manager even sounded a bit surprised. Because I know full well that i was going to another company and we were already late in the interview process. Ironically, the second day I started the first job I got the offer from the other company. What I thought was: if you lowball me, you can’t hate me for leaving you as soon as I got something else.
Better to starve on your feet than live on your knees. Always walk away.
Preach
I am a senior level software engineer and have worked for 10 different companies in my 25 year long career. I have been offered an unacceptable pay packet only once during one of my multiple job offers. Most companies offered by at least 12% more than the job I was in the process of leaving. High quality companies don't play games with the candidates they want to hire because it will eventually backfire if they do.
This. Lowball Offer is a sign of a shitty company. RUN
I’ve interviewed at one place and everything went pretty well. I was offered the job the following day and the offer was so much lower than expected. It was so low that I almost didn’t respond to the offer. It kind of was an insult. I responded back and thanked them for their time and told them the offer was much lower than expected. I gave my counter offer and it was approved within a few hours.
Interesting. I'd have to really do my homework and research the company to counter- I'd have to want it bad.
This is excellent advice for the private sector. As someone looking to transition back to the public sector, though, I’m not sure how to navigate this. I’ve had some disrespectfully low offers and I know to expect a pay cut but even after researching for similar roles in the public sector in my area, they were $30K below market value. I even had one of their recruiters tell me the real range but apparently the departments are devaluing the roles. I’ve respectfully declined but it’s frustrating that in looking for more work life balance and good benefits, they think it’s reasonable to make entry level roles. And yet they’re shocked by the Great Resignation? Please 🤦🏻♀️
I work at a community college in wisconsin and I am paid 10k-12k below private market value. You can ask for more but majority of the time they are budgeted out for a certain range and will be hard to get past that. Its not that they dont see value in you just that getting more money is just really really hard.
@@VampyWorm in this case the employer overall approved the classification for a higher range but the department determined it was only within a certain scope for its needs. How is it they can always find tens of thousands more for certain roles in the same department but others they don’t. I asked how they determined the range of the recruiter told me it was actually higher. They said their offer was based on the average of other people. I was like??? So if a Fulbright scholar with more experience is a candidate you’re just going to pay them the same? Talk about low quality employer. If that’s the case they need to be 1) updating their job description to attract candidates who are not overqualified 2) be transparent about the range - after all, it’s a public employer. Sadly they are the most behind in hiring practices in many cases.
The non-profit sector is the worst offender in lowballing. They interview people as if they are going to be Supreme Court judges, and then make very lowball offers. You will encounter that lack of respect (and an attitude as if that's how God intended it to be, meaning, they seem unable to grasp that they are being disrespectful to you as a professional) a lot in the public and non-profit sector.
@@uacbpa yes I have seen this countless times in nonprofits across the country! And then they try to guilt you into acceptance otherwise you’re not “really in it for the cause.” 🙄 Yet when you look at what leadership is making and their demographics, the gaps are bad… they’re no more ethical than corporate
Many times if government is a large employer in the area departments will collude to keep wages low. Solution? Only work for the Fed’s or state/local governments that have strong union protections.
If I really really needed a job, I might take the lowball just to pay the bills in the interim, but keep looking. The lowballer doesn't deserve any more "loyalty" from you than they extend to you, so if they're willing to screw you over, return the favor if you have to.
What these companies don't seem to get is that you can't price A Job any more than you can price A Car (new, used, wrecked, garage-kept, etc.). Say you have the same exact job (location, bennies, requirements, etc.), only one pays 40k, 60k, and 80k. You're feeling a bit queasy when you wake up.
At the 80k job, you drag your ass out of bed, get dressed, and go to work, because you're valued, and you need to be there. You're taken seriously, so you take the job seriously
At the 60k job, you might offer to work remotely, explaining that you're feeling sick, but would be willing to at least try to work, and put on a brave face.
At the 40k job, you just reset your alarm to 8:59 and then call in sick when it sounds.
How do these people making lowball offers NOT know that, or expect that?
In business economics this is called:
"If you pay peanuts, expect monkeys"
Businesses do not care or know. At the leadership level they see a spreadsheet and a shareprice. The CEO is threatened to be fired by the shareholders if costs are NOT CUT TODAY! So they layoff essential people. .... meanwhile projects and work need to continue but without the money. The Excel spreadsheet says 66% of last year for each project so they outsource and get monkeys for peanuts and cross their fingers. If enough desperate out of work monkeys take it is a win for everyone but YOU! Shareprice goes back up and the cycle repeats
"Companies don't want those rejected offers" But they sure don't mind throwing current employees on the street if they aren't perfect. They'd rather throw it away than help to fix it.
It's a personal thing. They'd rather replace you than let you win. Because if you beat them, all the other employees will start getting ideas of their own. You need to establish real power over them to have any chance.
standard everywhere is like that
Typical.
My brother was having this problem and the recruiter suggested to try for something other than money. He was able to negotiate a company car for him so that made the total offer acceptable.
I remember decades ago my dad a very experienced IT consultant being given a low ball off for a potential contract his immediate response was I don’t switch on the computer at that price! Needless to say the call ended very quickly.
I got a lowball offer and they called me twice to convince to take the job but kept offering me the same salary. Their idea was to flatter me but not offer me any more money. They offered me 40,000 when the salary range was 40 to 75,000. They would budge so neither did I . I took another position at another company that flattered me by offered a good salary.
Best way to get a raise, change employers.!
My basic approach is if we are within 15 percent, I do the things you suggest and go from there. If it is 20% or more. I'm out. Don't even bother with a counter.
I had one that lowballed me by $20k. I had talked with the recruiter previously about salary expectations and was told they were in line with the job. I rejected the offer and didn't work with that recruiter anymore. I eventually got more than what I was asking for from somewhere else.
Recruiters only want the deal done, they won't fight for the candidate cos they work for the client
I also was lowballed by exactly $20k. I said no, they came back $10k higher. I said okay, then a few days later said nah I don’t want it. Obvi blackballed by them now but I was clear with recruiter from day 1 what I was looking for.
As Corey Wayne would say the strongest negotiating position is being able to walk away and mean it! Works for me. They either revise or you find something better.
The man is a legend
Like what CCW says if you are not strong or alpha women and employers will simply not care. Some people need to take what is available and it is essential to be strong enough to do this first
I don't get the mindset where companies think you owe them something. You're already giving them your time and that's not including travel.
I think it's insulting when companies email you for an interview and they say congratulations that they are giving you an interview....like as if I am supposed to be happy only to have the chance to talk to them....they never consider that maybe they should be glad that **I** am talking to them because I already have two job offers in hand potentially paying more
Just got lowballed 20k below what we had discussed would be acceptable. I was pissed and the recruiter was pissed at the company for misrepresenting what they were willing to pay. The recruiter told me not to accept. I like the idea of telling the company I’ll think about it and then ghosting them.
damn, what a genuine recruiter
I dont think we should ghost them telling them no up front does more damage. They arent people after all that can get psychologically damaged
While I was between positions, I was working through a recruitment company and we kept getting nothing but positive feedback. Went through 5 interviews (7 total if you count the 2 interviews that they failed to show-up for) at this small company and never received an offer because they wanted to see how this 'other' candidate stacked up... but they kept having scheduling conflicts which just continuously kept delaying the offer. The recruitment company didn't want to start looking elsewhere since we were at the finish line (causing me to lone-wolf again). After a month of waiting, I accepted elsewhere for more pay and benefits that I preferred. I know I made the right choice simply because I'd probably be working twice as hard for a company that doesn't really appreciate heartbeats since they knew I was unemployed and probably felt like they could get me cheap.
I simply miss the days when companies were about providing QUALITY service and bettering it's community. Now its just about the bare minimum service and bettering it's shareholders.
I’m not actively seeking employment but I love these vids anyway
Your videos have been instrumental in refining my interviewing skills. This interview I will refer to was 2 days ago. Small company. No formal HR. No recruiter. Found myself with the Sr VP of Operations. Great interview. Offered the job on the spot. Was told to expect an offer that afternoon.
We never spoke money so I let the offer letter take the lead. It was lower than I would take but also the job description didn't fit the title.
I didn't panic. I took the day, met with friends and replied not with a decline, but an explanation of expectations, job title and pay not aligned. I was asked my salary requirements and did offer my initial acceptable range.
End result, they responded with a 40% offer increase meeting my range. I only gave the range as I did expect them to meet it.
And benefits too. Thanks. I just got my dream job.
Bit of an iffy, unnecessary move on their part to begin with, but I'm glad things turned out well.
@ShadowGJ almost 3 months in... a mutually beneficial relationship. Great career move. I have a 12 month time table... would have preferred 9 months. Waiting to see if the execs have are the problem. Tik tok
Location has a lot to do with salary. I live in small city in Ohio but only about 30 minutes from Pittsburgh, PA. Local steel mill wanted to talk to me because I had worked at a mill before as a software developer. I had a phone call with them and they said they could offer me up to 38K/year. I almost hung up on them. I work remote sitting in my house in shorts and t-shirt making 110K from a company based out of New York. My office is in Pittsburgh, PA though. Only been to office a time or two in a year. It's amazing how much 30 minutes to a bigger city can adjust your salary.
When was this offer of 38k per year ? I calculated 52 weeks with 40 hours, that is a bit over 2000 work hours (52 weeks). 38k gross amounts to 18,26 USD per hour. There are McDonalds that pay almost that much.
I wonder if they needed to "prove" that they could not find any U.S. developers so they would get visas for developers from India. The cure for that would be of course that any H1B1 visa position must at least pay 80k. Anything else is not that special in IT and they can find staff.
I remember applying to the local Publix to work as a cashier, and their offer was 12k a year for full-time work. This was in an area where the rent alone for a decent one-bedroom place was 1k a month. Truly ridiculous...
Come on man It’s a cashier
That's well below minimum wage, that can't be right.
Well, it happened. I was shocked too... I was expecting 30k, and was instead comically lowballed. They wouldn't budge even after I told them I make 25k a year at my current job.@@Alan-jk1yi
Probably part time
Today I turned down an offer because the company lowballed. Disappointing cuz it sounded like a good opportunity, but I felt if I accepted their perception of my worth, ultimately I’m accepting it also. No thanks…NEXT!!
Back in 2021, I had applied to an EET position in Louisville, KY. They tried to offer me $14 per hour. I almost laughed into the phone at that. After a few minutes of trying to get them to bring that amount up to a realistic level, they didn't budge. So I told them "That isn't even worth continuing this conversation, have a nice day." The position went unfilled for almost a year until they finally listed the wage and brought it up to about double what they tried to offer me. Many of these employers are clowns.
The only time I've got a low-ball offer (to be fair, it wasn't even an offer at that point) - I already had 2 offers on the Table. With that company, the Interview had gone badly and I already knew I didn't really want to work for them (but y'know - if they pony up the right amount of cash...)
Anyways - they gave their figure (which was a Salary band, but the highest figure was about $15K lower than the lowest offer I had on the table) - they started to go on about the Company again - and I just said "Look, I'm gonna stop you there. I already have offers on the Table that are $15K higher than your maximum. I don't want to waste your time, but I'm not the right person for this role", ended the interview, thanked them for their time and walked off.
Was a great decision.
I had a company offer me 14$ an hour to drive forklift for them. I didn't handle it professionally, and just walked out the door before he even finished talking. That being said, there is no positive negotiation that can result from such a drastically difference of opinion in worth.
When you don’t get what you want, you’ll take what you can get then leave for the right offer.
A wise man once said "Money I don't spend, I don't have to earn...." Another one said "A man with savings can walk tall." After having been in a position to have to take the first offer coming along, I will never be in that situation again.
I have two methods of solving this. One saying “bitch please.” And hanging up the phone on the job offer and the other just getting up out of the chair in their office and seeing myself out.
I had a recruiter try to push me to accept $40K less than I was currently making, and the health benefits package was the same as ACA health insurance. ($13K premium with $10K deductible) To add on top of this they offered no vacation, and it was a year with the opportunity to move to permanent. They were looking for a principal engineer with 15 years+ experience. I told them "First year grads will not accept that offer. Please don't even call me back with a counter offer."
I liked the video, my wife just went through this with a recent job offer.
Would you consider doing a video on how to value the various parts of the total compensation package as you mentioned in this one? Perhaps also an overview of the benefits that are typically being offered like bonus, retirement plans, insurance, PTO, stock options, etc
Great idea
An honest company will provide that information to you up front. The others will spring it on you after you are on the property. If they cant give it to you prior to accepting an offer, run, dont walk away.
Very good point on looking at the total compensation package, vs just looking at base pay. This was why I accepted my employer's counter offer. (I work for a small business and like my job, but had an opportunity for a similar role at a large healthcare corperation.)
While they couldnt match the basepay of thr other company, they got me close enough, kept me hourly instead of moving to salary, and threw in a company vehicle and education opportunities. Not having to maintain a vehicle or pay for gas was huge. That and thr ability to still get overtime for hours worked over 40 were able to bridge that gap.
I handed in my resignation at job A because job B led me to believe I had the job and the price we negotiated during the interview was acceptable.
Later they called me saying congratulations you got the job then low balled me almost $10K under the discussed price.
It’s such a scumbag thing to do and I’ve lost all respect for the company.
I’m now thinking to take the job, just to sabotage them.
I'm wondering how this is going to work in the future. Offers are going up because the labor market is tight right now, but you can bet the farm that employers are going to try to get some of that money back in the future by laying off the most expensive workers in their salary bands at the first signs of a recession.
And bonuses, stocks, 401k frequently change. Actually going through that right now at my company.
I think it's already happening. They are starting to implement "new models" and try to make them look cool, like "unlimited vacation", no retirement or health insurance. Companies are always going to try to give as least as possible and get as much as possible, but there are reasons why some things are regulated and mandated by law.
The offers going up piece is not universal and I wonder how broadly applied it really is. Many places that experienced layoffs or economic setbacks from the pandemic have tightened their belts so my colleagues and I are also seeing lowball offers coming through big time. It’s a mess 🤦🏻♀️
My tactic would be to learn as many skills as possible and make myself so indispensable so that whey (or if) they try to lay me off to "save money", my absence would hurt them more than the money they saved, and I would have picked up many marketable skills.
That strategy will have a shelf life as demographics are against it. The labor pool is shrinking due to all the Boomers retiring. The upside of being Gen X is that I’m there with experience when they’re all gone and there’s not enough of us to go around. Millennials are once again unfortunate; this time as part of a large cohort.
I have had 2 recruiters call me with jobs that were not offering competitive pay. The more experienced one was trying to convince them they were in the wrong range. The other one was laughable and the recruiter was very new. In that case I told him he was looking for a fresh graduate or intern.
If I still want to work there, I typically will counter-offer with a different mix of work conditions. This could be a 30-hour week, extra vacation, split employment, no travel, WFH, etc.
I suggested to them to keep the sign on bonus and I'll work part-time if they really need somebody. If you sign a sign on bonus they'll pay you that money upfront but you are stuck with them for however many years.
Make it work for you!! Don't get stuck with a company you don't like because you agreed to a sign on bonus. And if they stick with their low ball offer suggest something else like PT or PRN (if you really need the money) and work with them until you find something better.
I've accepted lots of low ball offers because it seems like I'm always desperate for the next job. That's what sucks about contract work, especially when you have anxiety.
I tell you how I address a lowball offer..... find a NEW "physical address" for a NEW "potential employer". . . . If your insulted in the hiring process. . . . then right out of the gate they've "set the precedent" for the future working relationship ! !
This is common in construction, promise a big raise 6 months after hire that they never give you no matter how good of a job you do.
I took a low ball offer. I was told I'd "be home more." I'd be able to "spend more time with my family." "The benefits are great!" -- Turned out I rarely knew in advance when I would be home. I actually was home more, but I only knew I was going to be home after the fact. Planning became impossible. And the benefits were actually worse than the job I had left. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but a life lesson I had to learn at the time.
When I get a lowball that tells me they are just looking for a warm body to fill the position aka zero respect
Agreed. Unless you are unemployed and need that paycheck, it is best to walk away.
I've walked out of a negotiation for that. I told them that's an "ass-scratching salary", because for that price, that's all an employee is going to do at work.
I know some of their current employees, I wasn't wrong
A lowball offer is often a predictor of future possibilities as well as management culture. It reminds me of counters. If they valued someone enough before they were leaving, they'd have paid them that already, so it's time to move on. It's similar with lowballs. If they are parsimonious now, they will be later. Thank them for their time and move on.
I received a job offer with 40% more compensation, 100% remote and it was way easier. The counter offer was 10% salary increase, with up to 40% in the next 12 months from my then-employer. I left immediately. Managers should know how to value their employees - if they're valuable, be proactive and raise their payrates. A 20% increase would kept me from seeking the job marketplaces. I've heard from ex-colleagues they've hired some pumpkins that were doing sh*t after me. And were paid 15% more due to inflation. When I was hiring some freelancers for my small agencies, I would always have a big list of requirements but pay well.
My first offer was $16/hr because I was their student. I applied to multiple places and got $26/hr
3 ways *_not_* to handle a lowball:
1. Pretend the offer is a lump sum signing bonus and ask for the "actual" salary
2. Remind the other person that you applied for [position X], not [position X]-intern
3. Laugh uproariously, then casually mention that their offer is half of [competitor name]'s
this will get you into the blacklist lol xD
@@anhnguyenduy6861 is getting on blacklist of shitty emplyer really an issue ?
@@yuri5k well yes, they gonna go around spreading lies about you so that you have to quit the industry.
Are you speaking from experience, because #3 worked for me
@@ThePrimeMinisterOfTheBlock who's competing with Australia?
One of the issues i always find with "look at what youre worth" is that.. a lot of the time the information just isnt out there. I have a position i just applied to and i dont even have a ballpark of what its worth in my market because less and less companies seem to be posting wages with job listings
I give some ideas on how to figure out your value in this video.
@@ALifeAfterLayoff did you? You mentioned glassdoor, but to take it with a grain of salt, and you mentioned comparably (I think that's what you said). I'm struggling with this myself, because there doesn't seem to be a consistent number. Also, comparably was WAY off (high) on the averages for my company.
That's annoying not naming the salary, like when you look at cars for sale in the classifieds and they don't say how many miles or the asking price. I'm not calling for a heap of junk nor a car that is out of my price range.
I hate the phrase, no. Its not what youre worth. Your WORTH is not how much you make. Its better to think of it “ how much is YOUR Skill (apart from other) in that job role worth.
(With apologies to Life After Layoff) I noticed a couple of years ago that a lot of employers have gotten crafty with writing Job Titles and Descriptions to make it difficult for candidates to do their homework.
I also factor in the kind of raises and promotions I could expect in the future. Certain companies are notorious for not offering raises, particularly consulting companies.
If a company low balls and doesn't offer you market rate, that should tell you a little of what to expect once you're in the door.
That happened to me 3 times. Every time I simply sent an email saying that I refused the offer as it was not up to my expectations which was talked about during the interviews and that I hoped that they can find the right person for their salary expectations. They all came back to me offering me exactly what I asked for in the interview within a week.
So they just try ... and risk losing an employee soon. But of course they expect the other staff members to pick up on the extra work. And then rinse and repeat.
This just happened to me. Was not even close to what the range was (I asked). I said no immediately. Did not want to negotiate or pursue since it wasn’t even close to the original discussion, so the misleading angle was not a trait I want in an employer.
Thanks! Your channel is helping me so much. I’ve struggled with confidence in the work arena and it’s so helpful to just have a better understanding of the culture.
I had a low ball offer in the past, I said I was disappointed, that I wanted this to work but the offer was too low and then I left. While I was was still leaving the building I got a call saying they would email me a revised offer and to go back there the next day to iron out the details.
The offer was significantly better and I accepted it.
I gotta disagree with this strategy of 'looking at the market' for what you're worth. You really should be avoiding giving a direct number when you are negotiating. This is a poker game, and at the end of it, you are worth exactly the number you ask for, period. With the strategy of matching market averages, I've only seen other devs ask for less than what they are worth. For example, I currently make 15k more than a friend of mine who has 10 years more experience on me, all because i asked for more than him. Its as simple as that.
You need to understand that the budget for your position is vastly different than what the number is that you end up saying, and you inevitably screw yourself over once you say a number. Dont use numbers, ask questions. Whats the budget for the role? Point it at them.
Anecdotal story:
Friend of a friend worked at amazon, hated it. Was at about 3 years there and needed to leave, Maybe about 150-180k a year salary. They line up a new job and give their notice, and amazon asks "what will it take to keep you around?". He jokingly says "i dont know, a million dollars", thinking that was ridiculous enough for them to not humor it, but they come back and say 'listen, we cant do a million, but what do you think about 500k?' Imagine that...3 years at 180 when you could have been at 500....
Moral of the story: Always ask for more. Who cares what glassdoor says, get more than that.
Oh wow!! 😮
Salute! If the entire labour force worked this way, our living conditions would be way different.
You should walk. Even if they come up in order to get you, they've just shown you who they are.
Keep shining the truth Brian. Fair market value. Period.
DAMN RIGHT LOL
My entire life has been lowball offers. So much so, each and every time, that I have been unable to afford to improve my skills. Luckily I'm smart at these things and know how to push back.
The opportunity works both ways.
You are giving up your most valued possession. TIME is also known as LIFE. In exchange for money that may or not lead you help you to have a better living which in turn will likely increase the life you have left. Or may lower it if you end up overworked, over drama, and under paid.
Is up to you to determine how much you value your life. And if the money given is worth the amount life you will lose in the deal.
The problem is I'm not a high quality employee yet, but I'll definitely get there
I recently took a very interesting HR corse on salary. I was taught that different companies have different salary policies relative to the market. The companiesspend thousandsbuying salary data. For example, Intel has a policy of paying at the top of the market and a non profit might pay at 3/4ths.
3:54 - Geo location is just another type of lowball. What if I move to an area where the living cost is lower ? Should I get paid less ? What if it is higher ? Should I get paid more ? Adapting the wages for a location shows me that you want to optimize your budget, but some of those recruiters out there use this tool wrong.
6:03 - Yes, I am probably in the top 10%. Also Hacker Rank or other similar sites are not a good benchmark, as most of businesses revolve around application building and not algorithmic solutions. Now, if you are searching for a niche category of jobs, like data engineer or maybe a position in a financial institution, where they rely heavily on statistics and their applications need to squeeze every millimeter of performance, than yes, knowing data structures and their usages inside out can prove to be very very handy. But again, that is a very niche category in software development. The pay is also better (on average, +30-40%)
6:52 - Most people don't know this because people are super iffy about talking salaries openly. So it is hard to asses an average baseline.
7:59 - Contractors do this a lot better than people who have been only employees. I know this because I've been both and interacted with both from both sides.
8:26 - This is another hard subject, because a lot of job offers are written incompletely and some just straight up lie.
9:06 - You can afford this if you have no obligations. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, especially with this whole spectacle the last 2 years.
10:03 - Nice :)
I've had some pretty bad lowball offers when I was job hunting while wrapping up my MBA. One company didn't even allow me to know what the actual offer was until after I accepted which turned out to be $10k below what was discussed. Even then it was already well below market to begin with and just insulting. The most ridiculous must have been a company that wanted me to essentially run multiple depts by myself on top of a massive project for well over $50k under the value of the position. By far the most insulting thing I wasted my time on.
Over the last year I've been contacted by different recruiters who are trying to fill the same job, but are replaced by the hiring company because they're unsuccessful at filling the position due to lowball offers.
I’m new to big biz recruiting but I’m aware of its pitfalls. Thank you for being an employee advocate.
I have no idea why but you are so entertaining when I'm animating
The only acceptable response to an extremely lowball offer is to ghost them. They make the offer. You 'thoughtfully' ask them for some time to consider it. Then avoid their calls like the plague until they stop. That way, they feel what it is like to get ghosted, and they end up ghosting one less person that was up for the position that they offered to you.
I was lowballed so much by so many companies, so many times, that I just started just walking away and rethinking the companies I was choosing to apply. I think lowballing can be perceived as a form of discrimination. Some companies might think that because you are of a certain ethnicity, that "you should be happy with this much we pay", "that's enough for your people", or "they don't need that much money". I've seen that done to others, and have experienced that myself.
In one interview they made a ridiculous low offer, and I just said "ha ha!", stood up and walked away. Never looked back. That lowballing thing, to me, it's a sign of the kind of people I will be working with/for. I find it insulting and disrespectful.
Don’t confuse greed with racism, I get low ball offers too
@@hadrianaugustus5712 I'm not confusing anything. Please read my comment again if you didn't get it the first time.
"that's enough for your people" LMAO
This is so very true!!
I did a Zoom interview with the department chair, HR, and CEO. They sent an offer without me coming in to do a sit down. After touring the place, I was puzzled by the low offer. Told the recruiter I'd pass because I didn't think they were serious. Currently, I entertaining an offer where the base salary is good, because it's the lowest I would go. However, the retirement benefit requires a vesting period (5+ yrs), which can't be negotiated.
I got myself in such situation with lower cool sounding offer in game dev, and good offer for much more money. I spent my whole weekend into trying to decide and finally what made me decide was me imagining what would be to take that lower offer and to think would I be satisfied. The position would have been for less money AND with more pressure, so I imagined what would be in the end of the month to get so much less money after I pushed so hard, and the decision became obvious. Putting on top that I already have my own game project, despite with prolonged development because of insufficient time, made me take the decision without any regret. It is really the moment, that you feel that just that decision is actually important.
One big tip. Never negotiate with the people that do the first interview. Only negotiate with the people that deal with your salary. When you discussing with the folks during your first interview they are going to find a way to disqualify you and that would be through your salary.
I would recommend that you always negotiate for salary vs benefits as benefits can easily be changed after the fact, How many times have you heard about companies cutting benefits like 401k match, charging more for health insurance, reneging on work from home privileges, etc?
I just had the opposite happen to me.
They have offered me 25 grand more than I asked for.
I accepted it, but now I'm terrified about what they are going to expect of me.
How's it going now?
@@moabman6803 it's going pretty good. Planning on asking for a promotion in my next quarterly interview.
I think I'm the lowest paid in my team by a significant amount.
Wonderfully and eloquently put, thank you. This has given me some great ideas of how to express my salary expectations more appropriately. Thank you.
About a year and a half ago I was interviewing for 3 jobs; 2 offering $85k, which was $35k more than I'd been making at my last job, and I was done with 3rd interviews for them and another job I didn't know the rate yet. Something outside my and the recruiters control happened with the first 2 jobs (company acquisition and former employee coming back to the role last minute) so I was down to the last one. They came back saying the role was $65k, but with bonuses it'd be about $72k and I'd get stock in the company, but while having to come into the office I was going to be driving 70 miles a day (fortunately later I was strictly working remote). I'd been out of work for months, was getting desperate for income, and had to take the role though I wasn't happy with it.
After a year I was being told because of my skills I was looking at being promoted, but instead the manager decided to create a project new team doing entirely different work than what was in my job description, no title change and no raise. I was then told in a few months when raises happen something was going to change, but the only thing that did was "you're getting a $1/hr raise" followed by maybe something happening in 6 months.
I got tired of waiting, updated my resume with a few new skills I'd picked up at the company, and I'm currently interviewing for roles offering 2-3 times what I'm being paid now. So while it didn't feel good having to settle for a lower pay, and I didn't plan on staying with the company longer than 2 years anyway, I'm hoping to get a job offer in the next few days for at least double what I'm making now.
How do I handle a low ball offer? I call them cheap skates and walk out. As you can see I have never been hired by someone low balling me.
Excellent video - all the software engineers preening in the comments about lowball offers don't seem to have listened to it closely, I realized that my skills aren't valued as highly as I thought, so I'm going to take the lowball (after looking at the total package and negotiating where the company has flexibility) and then work my ass off and look for a new job in 6-12 months, I'll also try to up and cross skill after hours so I've got some more to offer to the next company.
Yeah. The unspoken part of it. Make sure you can actually provide the value they need. Own your career, justify your salary.
Hmmm- interesting strategy, it might work out in the long run, playing that long game.....You grind it, increase your value and start looking again. Meanwhile, socking away money, paying off debt....etc.....Maybe hitting the gym.......a new suit....