Your statement of how Webern "says what he says with the minimum means possible" reminds me of when I once heard Boulez half jokingly say that "Webern is the perfect composer for people with short attention spans". I've never forgotten that because it really rings true since Webern is one of those few composers who can make a complete statement in just a few seconds.
Thanks for this recommendation. We've just completed a 20-yr update of our audio system & are reconnecting with recordings (we sold off a huge collection in 2018). This is indeed even better than Karajan or even Boulez, and the band is much better, not to mention the engineering. We just listened to the Passacaglia, and I never imagined that could be so...beautiful! Dohnanyi's careful attention to dynamics, tone color & timbre (since one can't slide on rhythm, melody or harmony) does justice to the genius of the music.
I once went to a concert featuring a string quartet that, among other works, played a quartet by Mozart and then one by Webern. During the Mozart I was basically somewhere else, uninterested in what the musicians were offering, but I noticed there were people in the audience who seemed to be enjoying themselves. With Webern, on the other hand, I saw people paging through their programs, apparently bored. But I was thrilled. It wasn't long but it was so intense, so precise, so Webern-like that I had tears rolling down my cheeks. I have two box sets of Webern's "complete" works, both on Sony: Pierre Boulez and Robert Craft. They sound different to each other, but they are both enjoyable every now and then. I also have Dohnanyi's Wozzeck, and I even saw him conducting in Munich (it was probably with the Cleveland Orchestra) back in summer 1990. Beethoven's Gross Fugue, Dvorak's New World Symphony and I think the first piece was a Concerto for Orchestra, either by Elliot Carter or Witold Lutoslawski, or perhaps it was a shorter piece by Lutoslawski.
I love Webern. Nothing like the 1st movement of the Op. 21 to calm one down after a hectic day at work. So that's where I'll have to disagree with you: this absolutely is the stuff I need the first thing I get home. :D
I love your summary of the 2nd Viennese School and the differences between the 3 cornerstones! I'd love a combination disk of Webern with Ives 4th symphony, where you can play a thousend wrong notes without anyone noticing...😊 This fantastic disk is on Spotify btw
"I would say that if there was anybody who has ever written music and been involved in the composing business that got close to writing some *saintly stuff*, it was Anton Webern."--Frank Zappa
FZ really wanted to make a recording a Webern’s music ( with Ensemble Modern, I guess), with all the instruments in an ideal sonic environment, because he felt it was always recorded in a boring room. Maybe he didn’t listen to this one?!
I love when you talk about Webern, Dave! He instantly became one of my favorite composers when I heard a particular CD that I'd like to recommend to everyone! It is a 1994 live album simply titled 'Anton Webern Kammermusik'/Solisten des Bayerischen Staatorchester, on Farao. I guess it's inevitable that the Webern discography is relatively small, but maybe it isn't! I had this Dohnanyi CD many years ago but don't think I ever gave it a proper listen.
Thanks, David. I'd love to get that disc. I have Dohnányi's recording of Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra, opus 16 (also with the Cleveland Orchestra) and I think it's an outstanding performance.
The Dohnanyi with Cleveland Decca box (which will include this Webern disc) is finally going to be released this September. PS: Maybe it's just a coincidence, but it does look like a number of ideas for conductor boxes that Dave has previously suggested in this channel have been produced by the "major labels" recently (eg The Abbado LSO box, Solti in London, Blomstedt's Complete Decca recordings). Perhaps some people at the "major labels" are also watching this channel and getting boxset ideas from Dave lol
Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the Dohnanyi/Cleveland box announced. So maybe a Beecham box will follow soon? Who knows. (I also want a Zilberstein/DG-box!!)
@@antalsporck I realize I'm starting to sound like a broken record (or cracked CD), but how about a complete EVEREST Records box of all of the original (1958, etc) releases? The musical world was never the same after some of those Goosens/LSO performances!
If I could chose one recording by CvDohnanyi it would have to be his Varese Ameriques. It could easily be a greatest recording of all time but I'd save that disc from destruction. His Webern would be a close second - great choice from an conductor who gets no credit. Excited to hear about the box set.
Thanks, Dave. I must listen to this. Webern really grows on you with repeated listening. Like your use of the word “elegant.” The second Boulez is very good though, and it’s dreadful that that set of everything isn’t available (as physical product I mean). The whole production of it was a thing of beauty before DG started going downhill, and really should be in print for everyone. Likewise their complete Messiaen box. You can quibble about this and that in there, but a lot of it is marvellous and it really should be “in print” as a matter of, dare I say it, German musical duty…
Never been able to get into Webern, despite Steve Reich's recommendation of the guy's stuff, but I'm going to seek out this GREATEST! RECORDING! EVERRRR!, assuming that if it doesn't work for me this time, it just isn't going to work for me.
I have the Boulez DG and 2nd Craft. But to me, so much of his output is the very exemplar of constipation in music. Henry Pleasants did well to use an analysis (no pun intended) of one of his works to usher in his book, The Agony of Modern Music. I vastly prefer Varese any day.
I liked the didactic point of putting Mozart & Webern together. Two composer ideal types of economy of expression. It's a marvellous disc but I love the sound of the Vienna Phil in both "schools"...
Dear Dave, what is your opinion on the whole beat tempo movement? There is a channel called “Authentic Sound” on RUclips which is also focused on classical music. He just released a video on Mozart’s facile sonata and argued that it is called this way because it’s actually less than half the tempo of e.g Barenboim. He also mused that Mozart intended it to be played so slow that a ‘beginner’ can play it. I’m not sure about this, because facile , in my mind, can mean simple in its form too.. I would love hearing your take on this, maybe it’s a revelation what that man argues!
Oh please ! I am not Dave, but i dare to answer anyway. Not this again. I understand why you might be interested because i was intrigued once myself but i assure you each claim Wim makes has been debunked and there is no proof in any source for this theory if you do not warp their meaning like Wim does.
Asked and answered many times. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Period. That anyone gives it one second of attention (never mind credence) is beyond insane.
Wim Winters is a well-known crack-pot with a certain following among know-nothings. If you've listened to him play the piano, you'll see that his "theory" is entirely self-serving, as he can play Chopsticks at full tempo, but nothing else.
@@dennischiapello7243hahah spot on! The first thing I thought of when I heard him rant on about this was, damn he must be frustrated that his technique is not up to standards 😂
@@DavesClassicalGuide I was afraid so.. I do wonder though, what would be the impetus for doing ‘research’ on this. Might it simply be because of an intrinsic sense of failure that he is not able to perform in tempo..? Anyway thanks for clearing that up! Greetings, Bil from Sweden 🇸🇪
Really looking forward to the Dohnanyi box, but dear God I wish it was all of his Decca recordings, not just Cleveland. The chances that they'll release a separate Vienna box are about zero. Oh, well.
Your statement of how Webern "says what he says with the minimum means possible" reminds me of when I once heard Boulez half jokingly say that "Webern is the perfect composer for people with short attention spans". I've never forgotten that because it really rings true since Webern is one of those few composers who can make a complete statement in just a few seconds.
Thanks for this recommendation. We've just completed a 20-yr update of our audio system & are reconnecting with recordings (we sold off a huge collection in 2018). This is indeed even better than Karajan or even Boulez, and the band is much better, not to mention the engineering. We just listened to the Passacaglia, and I never imagined that could be so...beautiful! Dohnanyi's careful attention to dynamics, tone color & timbre (since one can't slide on rhythm, melody or harmony) does justice to the genius of the music.
I once went to a concert featuring a string quartet that, among other works, played a quartet by Mozart and then one by Webern. During the Mozart I was basically somewhere else, uninterested in what the musicians were offering, but I noticed there were people in the audience who seemed to be enjoying themselves. With Webern, on the other hand, I saw people paging through their programs, apparently bored. But I was thrilled. It wasn't long but it was so intense, so precise, so Webern-like that I had tears rolling down my cheeks.
I have two box sets of Webern's "complete" works, both on Sony: Pierre Boulez and Robert Craft. They sound different to each other, but they are both enjoyable every now and then. I also have Dohnanyi's Wozzeck, and I even saw him conducting in Munich (it was probably with the Cleveland Orchestra) back in summer 1990. Beethoven's Gross Fugue, Dvorak's New World Symphony and I think the first piece was a Concerto for Orchestra, either by Elliot Carter or Witold Lutoslawski, or perhaps it was a shorter piece by Lutoslawski.
Hooray, three cheers for Webern (who is so rarely brought to life in the concert hall) and for Dohnanyi and Cleveland!
I love Webern. Nothing like the 1st movement of the Op. 21 to calm one down after a hectic day at work. So that's where I'll have to disagree with you: this absolutely is the stuff I need the first thing I get home. :D
I love your summary of the 2nd Viennese School and the differences between the 3 cornerstones!
I'd love a combination disk of Webern with Ives 4th symphony, where you can play a thousend wrong notes without anyone noticing...😊
This fantastic disk is on Spotify btw
Frank Zappa played homage to Webern. I listened to it, like John Cleese, it turned me into a newt!
"I would say that if there was anybody who has ever written music and been involved in the composing business that got close to writing some *saintly stuff*, it was Anton Webern."--Frank Zappa
FZ really wanted to make a recording a Webern’s music ( with Ensemble Modern, I guess), with all the instruments in an ideal sonic environment, because he felt it was always recorded in a boring room. Maybe he didn’t listen to this one?!
@@michaelpdawsonI remember that quote. From the Martin Perlich interview?
@@TheUtke That’s right!
Dew on the newts we got
I love when you talk about Webern, Dave! He instantly became one of my favorite composers when I heard a particular CD that I'd like to recommend to everyone! It is a 1994 live album simply titled 'Anton Webern Kammermusik'/Solisten des Bayerischen Staatorchester, on Farao.
I guess it's inevitable that the Webern discography is relatively small, but maybe it isn't! I had this Dohnanyi CD many years ago but don't think I ever gave it a proper listen.
Webern made some seriously spooky music I’m a big fan. Strange way to die
This cd is still available at Presto.
Thanks, David. I'd love to get that disc. I have Dohnányi's recording of Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra, opus 16 (also with the Cleveland Orchestra) and I think it's an outstanding performance.
The Dohnanyi with Cleveland Decca box (which will include this Webern disc) is finally going to be released this September.
PS: Maybe it's just a coincidence, but it does look like a number of ideas for conductor boxes that Dave has previously suggested in this channel have been produced by the "major labels" recently (eg The Abbado LSO box, Solti in London, Blomstedt's Complete Decca recordings). Perhaps some people at the "major labels" are also watching this channel and getting boxset ideas from Dave lol
Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the Dohnanyi/Cleveland box announced. So maybe a Beecham box will follow soon? Who knows. (I also want a Zilberstein/DG-box!!)
Thanks for the news. You made my day! I was in despair that it would never happen. Is this going to be an Eloquence production?
@@bbailey7818 Not sure actually. Found it in the "future releases" section of Presto Classical but no image of the boxset has been provided yet
The dohnanyi box is amazing news! I am going to pre order when I can. Now. How about an ancerl box???
@@antalsporck I realize I'm starting to sound like a broken record (or cracked CD), but how about a
complete EVEREST Records box of all of the original (1958, etc) releases? The musical world was never the same after some of those Goosens/LSO performances!
Aside from his music it's interesting that Webern was noted as a good Mahler conductor during the period between world wars.
@@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh That conductor (who saved the day) was Hermann Scherchen.
If I could chose one recording by CvDohnanyi it would have to be his Varese Ameriques. It could easily be a greatest recording of all time but I'd save that disc from destruction. His Webern would be a close second - great choice from an conductor who gets no credit. Excited to hear about the box set.
Thanks, Dave. I must listen to this. Webern really grows on you with repeated listening. Like your use of the word “elegant.” The second Boulez is very good though, and it’s dreadful that that set of everything isn’t available (as physical product I mean). The whole production of it was a thing of beauty before DG started going downhill, and really should be in print for everyone. Likewise their complete Messiaen box. You can quibble about this and that in there, but a lot of it is marvellous and it really should be “in print” as a matter of, dare I say it, German musical duty…
That disk may not be available physically anymore, but it’s on all the streaming services!
Yes, we found it easily on idagio, Presto & Qobuz (best sound)
A perfect listening evening is the disc you feature plus later Morton Feldman. Sheer beauty. I was lucky enough to buy it second hand. Keep looking.
Never been able to get into Webern, despite Steve Reich's recommendation of the guy's stuff, but I'm going to seek out this GREATEST! RECORDING! EVERRRR!, assuming that if it doesn't work for me this time, it just isn't going to work for me.
I have the Boulez DG and 2nd Craft. But to me, so much of his output is the very exemplar of constipation in music. Henry Pleasants did well to use an analysis (no pun intended) of one of his works to usher in his book, The Agony of Modern Music.
I vastly prefer Varese any day.
I liked the didactic point of putting Mozart & Webern together. Two composer ideal types of economy of expression. It's a marvellous disc but I love the sound of the Vienna Phil in both "schools"...
But Mozart was the opposite of "economical." He was one of the most lavish composers that ever lived.
@@DavesClassicalGuide yes but economical in sense that there are virtually no surplus notes
Dear Dave, what is your opinion on the whole beat tempo movement? There is a channel called “Authentic Sound” on RUclips which is also focused on classical music. He just released a video on Mozart’s facile sonata and argued that it is called this way because it’s actually less than half the tempo of e.g Barenboim. He also mused that Mozart intended it to be played so slow that a ‘beginner’ can play it. I’m not sure about this, because facile , in my mind, can mean simple in its form too.. I would love hearing your take on this, maybe it’s a revelation what that man argues!
Oh please ! I am not Dave, but i dare to answer anyway. Not this again. I understand why you might be interested because i was intrigued once myself but i assure you each claim Wim makes has been debunked and there is no proof in any source for this theory if you do not warp their meaning like Wim does.
Asked and answered many times. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Period. That anyone gives it one second of attention (never mind credence) is beyond insane.
Wim Winters is a well-known crack-pot with a certain following among know-nothings. If you've listened to him play the piano, you'll see that his "theory" is entirely self-serving, as he can play Chopsticks at full tempo, but nothing else.
@@dennischiapello7243hahah spot on! The first thing I thought of when I heard him rant on about this was, damn he must be frustrated that his technique is not up to standards 😂
@@DavesClassicalGuide I was afraid so.. I do wonder though, what would be the impetus for doing ‘research’ on this. Might it simply be because of an intrinsic sense of failure that he is not able to perform in tempo..?
Anyway thanks for clearing that up!
Greetings, Bil from Sweden 🇸🇪
Really looking forward to the Dohnanyi box, but dear God I wish it was all of his Decca recordings, not just Cleveland. The chances that they'll release a separate Vienna box are about zero. Oh, well.
I agree.