I was especially pleased to hear the frank and diverse perspectives regarding what's often referred to as "Bush's Illegal War in Iraq." In today's world of "What About-isms" (used to deflect attention and shirk responsibility), I have felt extremely frustrated to hear "Bush's War" being so frequently brought up (and so rarely, if ever, challenged) to stymie discussion, judgement, resolve, responsibility, consequences, and solutions to "Putin's War" against Ukraine. Thank you Neil Ferguson for addressing this head-on with clarity and passion! However wrong, malinformed, and misguided Bush's War was, as Neil pointed out, it was NEVER a colonial war, a land-grab, an attempt or desire to subjugate, enslave or erase Iraq. Never! The proof is in the pudding today. It's a blatantly false comparison on every level... Not to mention that raising it does nothing to solve today's tragedy in Ukraine. Very interesting discussion. Thank you all for your efforts and integrity.
If you judge colonial or neocolonial wars by whether they involve a landgrab, then you don’t have the slightest idea of what imperialism is and what imperial policies aim at. Lenin, in his famous Imperialism essay, clearly shows that imperialism is NOT about grabbing someone’s territory, NOT about direct conquest. Imperialism is about ECONOMIC and FINANCIAL domination first and foremost. Whether imperialist policies involve territorial conquest depends on the circumstances of the conflict. Territorial conquest is extremely costly and risky - economic and financial domination are far more effective because they allow a transfer of resources without direct rule which is implemented by political elites subservient to the imperial power. Only weak states today resort to territorial conquest - strong imperialist powers avoid direct land grabs and use far more effective tools of domination. That’s why your attempt to present the fact that the US did not try to establish direct occupation of Iraq beyond 2005 is an exercise in mendacity - the US, in order to sustain its global sway, did not have to occupy Iraq indefinitely because American power in the world by and large remains unrivaled and overwhelming. Even today!
12:00 thats disgusting to compare what soviet union was doing in ukraine (bringing up literacy from 10% to 99% and industrializing) and Hitler took his guidance directly from the American genocide of the indians. What a disgusting bunch of low lives.
Not sure if this is what you're looking for but there are multiple Snyder lectures on utube re Ukraine it's current terrorist invasion as well as it's past history, his 22 Yale University Lecture series on Ukrainian history.
"I don't think Ukrainians need to be lectured on whom to read." So grateful this comment was made. I really look forward to seeing what else in addition to Tolstoy is worth reading as decided by Ukrainians free to really look and determine for themselves, and do not see this exploration as a blind alley at all, but a road to places we haven't discovered yet, with all the unpredictability that holds.
@@bobanrajowic As you see from the original post, there are other options and people are voicing them. If you don't like them, that's not their problem.
@@bobanrajowic If "He" didn't want people to express Their opinions on His opinions, then I'm sure he wouldn't have broadcast over RUclips. Isn't "opinionating" exactly what you are doing? I don't understand what your issue is? 🤔
He was not lecturing on whom to read, he was accusing against reactionary rejection of anything Russian; his advice was to avoid judgement based on origin; the response was great - yes, Tolstoy & Dostoyevsky undoubtedly have something useful to discern, but let us re-read them in the light of modern experience, specificially of Russian behaviour & Ukrainian experience of it. Nothing wrong with what Niall said, just perhaps, as comedians say, it was too soon for Ukrainians to take as it was meant (which is to say it would be misunderstood, which it was)!
The Indian commentator reminds me as a friend of communist SU = his views remains stuck in the 1960s. But to listen to all other participants was really interesting. Thanks for uploading.
I can understand your sentiments. Nevertheless, I was very happy that the Indian commentator was present, vocal, and did not seem abashed to voice his opinions. We might consider that the very reason that his opinions were, in your words, "stuck in the 1960s" is because so few if any Indians are invited to participate in high profile intellectual discussions such as this - as an equal amongst a very bright, articulate, erudite, and respectful panel of intellectuals. If one is residing in an intellectual "echo chamber" (due to exclusion from consideration for participation in top-notch panels such as this), then it seems only natural that their views or interpretations will not have been properly or thoroughly challenged or objectively explored - Subsequently stymieing the growth or evolution their ideas. The opposite also applies. India is buying a lot of Russian oil, which finances Putin's War of colonial aggression. So too is China. India and China are not friends; at best they are rivals and it could even be said that they are enemies. Yet both countries are powerful participants in BRICS. It serves the otherwise all-Western panel well to have direct exposure to Indian thinking and perspectives. I am not an Indian, and unfortunately have not traveled in India. I have watched Indian news channels and panel discussions, many of them as raucous as I've ever witnessed. Mainly I have had but a few bright Indian friends who, depending upon their international exposure and interest in geopolitics, have voiced similar opinions to this Indian academic. My Indian friends have all harbored passionate feelings about the legacy of British colonization that have felt somewhat turbulent and unresolved... more raw and fresh-feeling than I would've imagined. And I sense that they feel offended and a bit resentful that little of the rest of the world seems much interested in India's experience, history, and designs for its own place in the world. Imagine if there had been a Chinese panelist? Unfortunately, unlike India, China allows no free speech coupled with the most severe punishments for anyone who fails to completely tow the government line. Thus, regrettably I can't see a Chinese panelist as a possibility in the future.
@@mnoot7209 Is "Indian hierarchy" inviting many Ukrainians or other Eastern Europeans to talks and discussions? ☺️ The "global South" is fighting hard to be equal... in hypocrisy
@@psychologianiestacjonarna6558 I don't disagree with you at all. But I also don't think that matters if the goal is our own objective edification. We don't realize any benefit by "not inviting them because they don't invite us." Seems guaranteed to perpetuate ignorance- along the lines of cutting off my own nose to spite my own face. I have never found it effective to fight ignorance nor prejudice with resentment or belligerence. In my experience, countries like India don't often have Western or Eastern European panelists... unless they're no-name lapdogs who tow the prevailing nationalist line and myths of their hosts (like paid shills). But whether or not that's sinister, or because countries like India can't or won't pay enough to make it worthwhile for Western intellectuals, or because it's done to pump viewership earnings, I couldn't say.
@@mnoot7209 coming to ukraine from india to demostrate twitter level of whataboutism and out yourself as an antidemocrat who despises the law is a clownish behavior
@@mnoot7209twice you've used tow the line .. it's toe, one toes the line as in lines up with everyone else behind the line - toes touching it, like in parade .. that is the metaphor.
Ukrainians were never overrepresented among the elite either in the Russian Empire or in the Soviet Union. Of course, there were many Ukrainians on top positions, but this is simply the flip side of the fact that Ukrainians have always been a relatively numerous group.
You can make exactly the same statement about Russians - Russians were never overrepresented in the Soviet government because they simply were the largest group in the USSR.
Bravo and thank you. Just the other day in conversation with one of my Finnish colleagues about the Soviet war against Finland, I've realized, that four of seven top Soviet commanders in this war: Voroshilov, Timoshenko, Shtern and Dukhanov were actually Ukrainians.
What do you make of that? It's ironic, bc a great deal of European ancestry is Nordic/ Germanic, including of course Russia. Which makes Putin's violent aggressive destructive setting of Europeans against each other such a cynical self serving piece of resentful bile! Take about handing the world to China! It's reminiscent of the survival of Muscovy through vassalage to the Golden Horde. The Ukrainians fought the Bolsheviks for independence & lost; the USSR made good use of their talents, nothing unusual about that. And the finno-ugric ppl once dominated the Baltic zone, so .. ??
Yes, insofar as exploding the intellectual simplicity that colonialism represents in modern discussion; it's become a default bashing of Europeans, as if it wasn't the default position of humanity for millennia! Like slavery has come to represent a very limited morally loaded anti European piece of history; Snyder's point about Rus, Slav & Canaan was outstanding. I thought this discussion was chaotic, but that was useful bc it illuminated the problem of simplistic conceptions of human history. I think Snyder would have been frustrated though, bc he wanted to get at Ukraine specific features or lessons within the frame of colonialism, which happened only peripherally. The Ukrainian women offered real value, based in broad experience of other ppls experience of colonialism; the Ukrainian academic not so much (he had to much ego in the game)! Niall was outstanding as an independent voice, rejecting the usefulness of universal themes.
Niall Ferguson was quite mature. We need to be able to unpack complex problems in a multi-layered approach. Ukraine has a very complex history and using the victim lens all the time will be detrimental to it, long-term.
A bit off topic, but I was impressed by Prof. Snyder teaching in a prison. When I was in grad school, this fell upon we lowly T.A.s, but I came to prefer those students over those fresh from highschool. The inmates always read the materials in advance and had good, penetrating questions and insights. They forced us to be much better teachers than we otherwise would have been. I can only hope we returned the favor.
Great discussion! I wonder if it was awkward for Ferguson and Snyder to be on the same panel :) Ferguson threw some shade on Snyder recently. Not very elegant The indian (I think) gentleman brought nothing to the conversation.
Of course. Because he didn’t agree with the premise and was exceedingly patient with the nonsense Snyder and his Ukrainian yesmen (and yeswomen) were trying to concoct. Even Hrytsak disagreed. That tells you a lot. Ukrainian nationalists don’t want to be placed in the same category of the "subalterns" with the African Americans, the aborigines of Australia, the untouchables of India or the Roma tribes from Hungary. 🤣
@@karelkieslich6772 He made a critique of Snyder's "On Tyranny" in an unbecoming way, let's say :) I like them both, hope they are friends. Here's the link to that lecture ruclips.net/video/0uRThTGeF08/видео.html
@@irinookawhat a great coincidence😂 I was also surprised to see them on the same panel because of this lecture! Yet they both joined the event second time in a row, so for sure they manage to bear each other)). Also love them both. Timothy is more on humanitarian side of the history knowledge. And Nial is more about geography and economy. His mocking remarks on Snyder’s book are controversial somehow, but have some sense. It’s great experience to have their two different perspectives on the same issue!
It seemed to me that different people in this conversation were talking about different periods of Ukrainian history. On focused mainly on Soviet period, other tried to include at least some parts of Russian empire rule and third seemed to think mainly about recent decades and current Russian invasion of Ukraine. In the result I think that no real answer to the videos question was found.
41:59 if hypocrisy is a sign of a "rules based order", did organized, cannonized religion play a part in constructing a rules-based order? Which came first? Religion or "rules based order"? Cannonized religions or governments? 41:59
Hypocrisy - a situation when somebody pretends to believe something that they do not really believe, or that is the opposite of what they do or say. Synonyms: dishonesty, insincerity, fraud. My question is: How are we organised Hypocrisy?! I mean it is a nice panel from different countries but something do not quite add up :) ❤LOVE
It is the negotiation of rules one does every day. You both chose how you follow rules and where you make small "concessions". This action itself is respect towards rules and there are systems around dealing with (non-)compliance. Organized hypocrisy is of course hyperbole. But it points towards this interesting thing -> following rules is not a state, it is a verb. It is something you do, not something you have. And as such we talk about relationships to/with rules. Lastly rules themselves are usually written to provide spaces, options and vectors. You have options and there are scales. It can and it will never be behaviour to rules as 1:1 relationship. At least it cannot be in free country. You can never predict what these humans do. And it is amazing. Dislike hypocrisy, but understand why it exists.
Hypocrisy in the sense that we have values and ideals, but often don't live up to them. That's what it is to be human. His point is that the only way to get rid of hypocrisy is to get rid of the rules entirely.
@@Sphere723yes, well put; I would add that rules are made as a direct response to human self serving reality, as a means to direct it positively, by definition aspirationally. What is Christianity other than this? The recognition of our selfish destructiveness & the need to direct it positively! Presumably all religions are so, since all are formalisations of the conundrum of how to live in the face of the knowledge of death & the human condition - aspiring to something useful to defeat nihilistic suicidalism!
The 'death of God' expresses the loss of that guiding principle, & the risk of descent into nihilism. Not that God is a supernatural being, but rather a supranatural concept of great psychological value to such a frail & self deceiving creature!
Yes, the abstracts of vocabulary will reflect part of the actual experience of individual people accurately. However, we must always respect the validity of every individual's experience.
at 34 minutes: Always acknowledge and respect the validity of individual experience within the global order of laws, value etc. Might this be difficult to achieve? I expect so. Nonetheless, the great value of the democratic approach is that we commit to respect each person's definition of life by its qualities, then accommodate that definition in the drafting of rules.
approximately 28 minutes :The colonial experience must be acutely aware hat very person has a unique experience. While we think it is important to develop abstract theories in order to more easily identify and understand what we are seeing from the outside, we must be careful to no recolonise individuals by placing their individual experiences into any of the abstract models without their active participation in that experience and have them meet our minds with our categorisation. Better yet, we must meet their minds in making these categorisations.
When institutions speak to the "International Rules-based Order" it is done primarily outside the context this discussion demonstrates. The agency and primacy of nation states is uncontested for the most part and is the basis for organizing international affairs. If we assume the community of nations is a hypocrisy, as Synder describes, we do have a basis for understanding the nature of communal dialog. Our institutions for perceived and objective fairness and justice is yet fully formed. Remembering an economic movement, fair trade, seemed to have elements of what could be helpful in understanding communal organizing. I am not preferring the concept as a solution, but as an example of thinking about any version or vision of a conceptual order.
I recently discovered this channel and found it fascinating. While the West invests heavily in shaping Ukraine's narrative, which is commendable, there's a noticeable silence about situations in countries like Libya and Yemen. Libya has been left to the Islamists, and Yemen faces an unending war, largely due to weapons supplied by the US to Saudi Arabia. The commentator from India did well to point out these double standards, which ironically undermine Ukraine's cause. I have close Ukrainian friends from the Erasmus Exchange, and my sympathies lie with them. However, this doesn't excuse the West's hypocrisy. I also notice unwarranted criticism of India in the comments. Many seem unaware of India's colonial history. At the time of its independence, only 3% of Indians were literate while UK had 100% literacy, a stark contrast to post-1990 Ukraine's literacy rate where people had the same literacy level as Russians I think that is enough to show the difference. While Ukraine has faced challenges, equating them with the horrors of slavery and colonialism is misguided and highlights further hypocrisy, especially when comparing their historical grievances with Russia.
I think you're comparing apples and Oranges. Russian has launched a war of conquest. Nobody is trying to annex Libya or Yemen, they are just civil wars were foreign governments are helping support one side or the other. Very different things.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to equate what happened to Ukrainians with « the horrors of slavery and colonialism » as you describe it, and one just needs to look at the Holodomor or the holocaust to convince himself, let alone political repressions, successive interdictions of the Ukrainian language, mass deportations, forced Russification etc. There is no point in comparing the suffering of different people, as you seem to do here, but if we were doing that Ukraine would not be an outlier when talking about colonized or oppressed peoples. The hypocrisy, on the contrary, lies rather in negating the suffering and colonial experience of Ukrainians as compared to other African or Asian nations. Here also lies the double standard.
@@iloveOxmo I am sorry but do you know that a lot of the top people in Soviet union were Ukrainians? Infact Nikita and Brezhnev were both Ukrainian, can you imagine the King of British Empire to be some Nigerian? 😅 Don't talk about things you don't know as they say.
@@pankajsinha385 I am sorry but I know enough Russian and Ukrainian history not to be fooled by such arguments. That some members of the elite of the Ukrainian nation participated in both the Russian empire and the Soviet Union do not magically make these two entities and their attitude and policies towards Ukraine less imperialist in nature. Forced Russification and the suppression of the Ukrainian language were not particularly stopped under Brejnev or Kroutchev, in fact it even worsened under Brejnev. The later, although born in Ukraine had Russian parents and himself identified as a Russian. As for Khrushchev he was also a Russian, from Kursk, who later moved to the Dombass and happened to have responsibilities in the Ukrainian ssr. But none of them were Ukrainians or identified as such.
A lot of what you say here is well taken. However sometimes landgrabs are directly connected to economical control, e.g. the Crimea grab by Russia gives control to the Black Sea and therefore huge control of Ukraine's economy , the sale of their grains around the world which are being blocked. This is the same centuries old reas various empires, Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth on the west and Russian Czarist Empire on tge east as well as later Hitler and Stalin on tge west and east respectively grabbed/ invaded Ukraine's breadbasket of Europe.
That Scottish guy was pretty arrogant. Does he have any idea what is going on in Ukrsine? Has he watched the Russian Telegram video showing the 21 Roses torture technique?
He's straightforward. Btw I liked his, Snyder's and Gumenyuk's response to the Indian guy putting his predictable shtick of neverending post-imperial inferiority complex
@@psychologianiestacjonarna6558 You see a “post-imperial inferiority complex” on the part of the Indian participant but don’t notice the elephant in the room - a burning and utterly vengeful inferiority complex which animates the Ukrainians…
@@Yasen99to whom? Ukrainians responding to being invaded, ethnically & culturally cleansed, bombed & murdered as we speak, is some kind of inferiority resentment? You must be kidding!
This isn’t the first Indian that has a chip on his shoulder. This anger and resentment from Indians against the US and our allies reminds me of Russians over the last 15 years. Who will aid Pakistan when they are invaded and/or nuked by India? China? Will Ukraine continue to relate with India or Pakistan when they go to war? Ukrainians ought to be upset with Indians for their support of Russia.
Actually the west didn't help India during its conflicts with China and Pakistan but instead helped them look at the 1971 war with Pakistan. First get your history correct and second India has an active conflict going on with these countries, which european country has stood with India? Bashing India won't help Ukraine.
@@PresidentCamacho24 You yourself pointed out Pakistan and China's conflict with India and I just mentioned some details of our conflict with them which are not just historical but current. I didn't show any anger or resentment but just stated the facts, also I mentioned western governments, not the people in your case you are pointing at Indians in general, that's 1.4 billion people. As they say, no point arguing with an ignorant person.
@@pankajsinha385 No I didn’t. I mentioned the three parties in South Asia and you made a lot of assumptions. Just let it go. Also I’m not here for your history lesson. Take care.
@@Sphere723 Ukraine never existed in antiquity, and to present it as a nation that was more important than the Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Ottoman Empire, and the Russian Empire is ridiculous. The Kyivian Rus disappeared during the Mongol Golden Horde invasion, and after that, the Poliish And Lithuanian Empires had control; the Cossacks and Crimean Tatars were Turkric-speaking people, and not Eastern Slavic, and the Kyian Rus were replaced by Eastern Slavic Slavonic Speaking people. The Vikings Rus were long gone. Then, the Ottomans controlled the Northern Black Sea region and the Russian Empire. Ukraine never had a Black Sea Coast until 1922, when the Bolsheviks put Ukraine together. So if you search all Treaties in the region, the word Ukraine or Borderlands is never mentioned, and they never reached the Black Sea Coast as the Ottomans, the Crimean Khanate, and the Zaporizhzian Cossacks stood in their way There is no historical link between the Crimean Khanate and the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, and hence, the land now called Ukraine is a very modern creation. The Polish East Galicia and Volhynia, which the Soviets added to Ukraine in 1939, was the center of Polish Eastern Culture; Ukraine built nothing. Berassarabia was added to Ukraine and was a region taken from Moldova by the Soviets and was part of the Russian Empire along with Odesa, Mykolaiv, Melitopol, and Berdynansk-founded cities. To make out that Ukraine was this greater superior empire is ridiculous and portrays a sense of desperation on the part of present-day Ukraine and their paid Historians like Timothy Snyder. If Ukraine was so brilliant, powerful, brave, and handsome, wouldn't they have an empire that reached as far east as the Bering Straight and encompassed Northern Europe to the Barents Sea in the Arctic Circle? But no, they relied on the protection as others, all talk, all demanding, and always complaining about people never giving them enough stuff for free, just like Soviet Times and very much like today. The Soviets built Modern Ukraine, Industrialised it, and created its Water System, it Nuclear Plants, Shipbuilding, and Aerospace. People from former Polish And Lithuanians were predominantly rural and Serfs run by Polish Nobles. So there you have it, Ukraine in a nutshell in 2 minutes as opposed to Snyder’s 40-hour lecture, in which he talks mainly about the Polish Lithuania CommonWealth and not about the Russian Empire, which he conveniently fails to mention.
@@Sphere723 Ukraine never existed until 1922, so there was no use talking about the Greater Ukrainian Empire encompassing all the diverse peoples and tribes. I cannot find any reference to the name Ukraine in the annuals of History; even Suleman the Great, Alexander the Great, Ivan the Terrible, and Catherine the Great have never heard of this Nation during their time. Helene of Troy, the so-called Helene of Ukraine did not know the place; she only knew Sparta, Anthenia, Macedonia, Ionian, and Troy. So let us take ourselves back to 1240; the Mongols wiped out the Kyivian Rus; as a power, they too receded, the remains of which are the Cossack Tribes, the Central Asian Krygiz, Kazaks, Uzbeks, Tajiks, the Azeri, and the Crimean Khanate. The Polish Slavs replaced the Mongols in Kyiv, the Viking Rus disappeared, and Moscovy developed as a power; there was no magical Ukrainian Empire comprised of Poles, Lithuanians, Rutheren, Cossacks, Berrarabians and Tatars that formed this magical Kingdom of Ukraine. This is an invention of Timothy Snyder, and it never existed. The Bolsheviks forged modern-day Ukraine into the Nation that existed from 1922 to 1991, they lost the Gift of Crimea in 2014 and the Donbas, Zaporizhia, and Southern Kherson in 2022. This happens in the annuals of History, so get over it. You must update your map and stop crying about Ukraine.
@@cliveengel5744nobody painted Ukraine as a grand empire, and Snyder did cover extensively the Russian empire in his lectures, quite obviously but it’s probable you never got to that part as it was later in Ukrainian history (1658/1708 to 1917), if you ever watched his lectures at all, which I doubt. Plus, whether Ukraine started to exist as a polity in 1922 or 1991, it doesn’t matter and is no argument to deny their right to exist as nation in 2022. You’re not using the vocabulary of a reasonable person who wants to debate here, but you rather seem on a mission to push a certain agenda, which is sad.
I've read Tolstoy, too long and too last last century, and to a Scottish fella, his country men are not being exterminated at the moment, and if they were he would change his mind, not only I don't want to read Tolstoy, I don't even want hear that language, yes, I can tolerate my Mom who is a russian speaking ,, but that's about it,
Tolstoy philosophy is “ Do not repay anyone evil for evil”, which I totally agree with. Just imagine what will happen if someone assaults someone and other assaults back and this will carry on. Russians felt they were assaulted by bombardment in Ukrainian Donbas ethnic Russians, allowing freely in Ukraine ultra right parades ( 20 million died in USSR fighting them, that is five times more than recent Scotland), also Russian government got frustrated that in-spite of agreementNATO continued to spread ( look at Cuban conflict what was at stake when the same could happen to USA). So Russia did not follow Tolstoy idea. They retaliated. Ukraine replied. And now thousands men from both countries continue to loose their limbs, burn, becoming blind, deaf, paralysed, dead.Just imagine if everyone followed Tolstoy path.If Ukraine never bombarded airport in Donbas, houses , just let them live, affiliated with Russia, put big fences, borders. If Russia instead of revenge, got evacuated all millions who were in disagreement with Kyiv regime having only Ukrainian schools,not allowing print in Russian ( half population in Ukraine speaks Russian). And so on … what you think would happen if Ukrainians stop to fight? Ukraine as republic existed in Soviet Union for decades. They had their language, schools, even film studios with Ukrainian language unlike colonialism in Canada, Australia, New Zealand where children were beaten in schools for speaking native language. I do believe some unjustifiable cruelty was imposed on Scots as well. My point is… Russian people, philosophy are as anybody’s else, with good and evil motives. They have incredible thoughts and ideas, unfortunately not all Russians follow it.
@@taniadavenport2939 first:who told you that donbass is ethnically russian? Second: Nobody signed any treaties with russia about NATO not expending to the east, putin was talking about joining NATO also. Third russia doesn't decide who goes to NATO and who doesn't, that decision falls on each sovereign country . Basically all you wrote is bunch of nonsense, I don't have time to go through each sentence which is bunch of russian propaganda, you don't know the history of ussr or russia or Ukraine, so all you repeating is bunch of nonsense from russian tv, I feel sorry for you and you go the same way that рускій воєнний карабль went. I'm sure you know where .
@@andreysavin1931 You got a bit nervous, young man, if you can not reply with manners, trying put me down to your level . I do not watch Russian propaganda, but looks like you are watching Western a lot. I lived in the country which consisted of Russia and Ukraine. I read Ukrainian point of view and Russian point of view, and Western. One. If you look at “Russian language in Ukraine” wiki article in English. 2001 census 74.9%Donetsk oblast 68.8% Luhansk oblast Using Russian language as native. What other criteria you attribute to ethnicity if not language. However in whole Ukraine Russian networks were prohibited since 2017. How is that for democracy and free speech? Poroshenko ( one of UKrainian presidents) promised cut citizens of Ukraine in this region ( look up Poroshenko speech) from funding as they showed affiliations to Russia. Where was in Ukraine support for two languages like in Canada? No, Ukrainian oligarchs preferred to funnel their money ( quite often illegally taken from Ukrainian citizens) abroad, buying villas and yachts. Two. Maybe no treaties, however isn’t a common sense that if NATO get extended to the territories which already primed with neonazist ideas ( where else you could see in Europe marches with swastika, but plenty of those on RUclips with Ukraine plus “ moskalyaku na gilyaku”- hangmoskovites), it creates danger for national security. Again, why USA did not want Soviet rockets on Cuba, even there no one yelled hangAmericans). I am against this war . So I am not willing to join it. Looks like you are for, so get some balls, go fight for Ukraine and maybe you understand that it is a bit different from “ Call of Duty”.
@@taniadavenport2939 sure, I'm very nervous lol 😆 and the rest I did not read because I'm sure like all the previous nonsense you started this one with the same nonsense
@@andreysavin1931 This is not written only for you , but for people who can see a bit deeper in life. Maybe you can mature one day and be able to read more than couple pages of Tolstoy, couple of chapters at least.
I was especially pleased to hear the frank and diverse perspectives regarding what's often referred to as "Bush's Illegal War in Iraq." In today's world of "What About-isms" (used to deflect attention and shirk responsibility), I have felt extremely frustrated to hear "Bush's War" being so frequently brought up (and so rarely, if ever, challenged) to stymie discussion, judgement, resolve, responsibility, consequences, and solutions to "Putin's War" against Ukraine. Thank you Neil Ferguson for addressing this head-on with clarity and passion! However wrong, malinformed, and misguided Bush's War was, as Neil pointed out, it was NEVER a colonial war, a land-grab, an attempt or desire to subjugate, enslave or erase Iraq. Never! The proof is in the pudding today. It's a blatantly false comparison on every level... Not to mention that raising it does nothing to solve today's tragedy in Ukraine.
Very interesting discussion. Thank you all for your efforts and integrity.
Very well said, thank you. 0:04
Yep, the Bush’s were heinous in their decisions, but they weren’t intent on wiping out the country, or their history.
Completely different monster.
Agreed.
If you judge colonial or neocolonial wars by whether they involve a landgrab, then you don’t have the slightest idea of what imperialism is and what imperial policies aim at. Lenin, in his famous Imperialism essay, clearly shows that imperialism is NOT about grabbing someone’s territory, NOT about direct conquest. Imperialism is about ECONOMIC and FINANCIAL domination first and foremost. Whether imperialist policies involve territorial conquest depends on the circumstances of the conflict. Territorial conquest is extremely costly and risky - economic and financial domination are far more effective because they allow a transfer of resources without direct rule which is implemented by political elites subservient to the imperial power. Only weak states today resort to territorial conquest - strong imperialist powers avoid direct land grabs and use far more effective tools of domination. That’s why your attempt to present the fact that the US did not try to establish direct occupation of Iraq beyond 2005 is an exercise in mendacity - the US, in order to sustain its global sway, did not have to occupy Iraq indefinitely because American power in the world by and large remains unrivaled and overwhelming. Even today!
The transfer of wealth from Iraq is more relatable to what Iran was doing in Iraq after the US withdrawal:)
How amaizing - people read the books that are available and have different insights! I adore such level of thinking aloud 😍
12:00 thats disgusting to compare what soviet union was doing in ukraine (bringing up literacy from 10% to 99% and industrializing) and Hitler took his guidance directly from the American genocide of the indians. What a disgusting bunch of low lives.
@@dkudlay the whole show excepting the Indian guy was an exercise of intellectual dishonesty and a very poor at that
Just one question I have: what kind of prison you may go to listen to Timothy Snider lecture?
The kind where inmates can buy Snyder's analogy between the American Blacks and the Ukrainians.
Not sure if this is what you're looking for but there are multiple Snyder lectures on utube re Ukraine it's current terrorist invasion as well as it's past history, his 22 Yale University Lecture series on Ukrainian history.
"I don't think Ukrainians need to be lectured on whom to read." So grateful this comment was made. I really look forward to seeing what else in addition to Tolstoy is worth reading as decided by Ukrainians free to really look and determine for themselves, and do not see this exploration as a blind alley at all, but a road to places we haven't discovered yet, with all the unpredictability that holds.
Tolstoy is not worth reading. Russians read it and now you see what they do.
@@bobanrajowic As you see from the original post, there are other options and people are voicing them. If you don't like them, that's not their problem.
a young Ukrainian gal has informed me that books are no longer needed because we have RUclips now.
@@bobanrajowic If "He" didn't want people to express Their opinions on His opinions, then I'm sure he wouldn't have broadcast over RUclips. Isn't "opinionating" exactly what you are doing? I don't understand what your issue is? 🤔
He was not lecturing on whom to read, he was accusing against reactionary rejection of anything Russian; his advice was to avoid judgement based on origin; the response was great - yes, Tolstoy & Dostoyevsky undoubtedly have something useful to discern, but let us re-read them in the light of modern experience, specificially of Russian behaviour & Ukrainian experience of it.
Nothing wrong with what Niall said, just perhaps, as comedians say, it was too soon for Ukrainians to take as it was meant (which is to say it would be misunderstood, which it was)!
The Indian commentator reminds me as a friend of communist SU = his views remains stuck in the 1960s. But to listen to all other participants was really interesting. Thanks for uploading.
I can understand your sentiments. Nevertheless, I was very happy that the Indian commentator was present, vocal, and did not seem abashed to voice his opinions.
We might consider that the very reason that his opinions were, in your words, "stuck in the 1960s" is because so few if any Indians are invited to participate in high profile intellectual discussions such as this - as an equal amongst a very bright, articulate, erudite, and respectful panel of intellectuals.
If one is residing in an intellectual "echo chamber" (due to exclusion from consideration for participation in top-notch panels such as this), then it seems only natural that their views or interpretations will not have been properly or thoroughly challenged or objectively explored - Subsequently stymieing the growth or evolution their ideas.
The opposite also applies. India is buying a lot of Russian oil, which finances Putin's War of colonial aggression. So too is China. India and China are not friends; at best they are rivals and it could even be said that they are enemies. Yet both countries are powerful participants in BRICS. It serves the otherwise all-Western panel well to have direct exposure to Indian thinking and perspectives.
I am not an Indian, and unfortunately have not traveled in India. I have watched Indian news channels and panel discussions, many of them as raucous as I've ever witnessed. Mainly I have had but a few bright Indian friends who, depending upon their international exposure and interest in geopolitics, have voiced similar opinions to this Indian academic. My Indian friends have all harbored passionate feelings about the legacy of British colonization that have felt somewhat turbulent and unresolved... more raw and fresh-feeling than I would've imagined. And I sense that they feel offended and a bit resentful that little of the rest of the world seems much interested in India's experience, history, and designs for its own place in the world.
Imagine if there had been a Chinese panelist? Unfortunately, unlike India, China allows no free speech coupled with the most severe punishments for anyone who fails to completely tow the government line. Thus, regrettably I can't see a Chinese panelist as a possibility in the future.
@@mnoot7209 Is "Indian hierarchy" inviting many Ukrainians or other Eastern Europeans to talks and discussions? ☺️ The "global South" is fighting hard to be equal... in hypocrisy
@@psychologianiestacjonarna6558 I don't disagree with you at all. But I also don't think that matters if the goal is our own objective edification. We don't realize any benefit by "not inviting them because they don't invite us." Seems guaranteed to perpetuate ignorance- along the lines of cutting off my own nose to spite my own face. I have never found it effective to fight ignorance nor prejudice with resentment or belligerence.
In my experience, countries like India don't often have Western or Eastern European panelists... unless they're no-name lapdogs who tow the prevailing nationalist line and myths of their hosts (like paid shills). But whether or not that's sinister, or because countries like India can't or won't pay enough to make it worthwhile for Western intellectuals, or because it's done to pump viewership earnings, I couldn't say.
@@mnoot7209 coming to ukraine from india to demostrate twitter level of whataboutism and out yourself as an antidemocrat who despises the law is a clownish behavior
@@mnoot7209twice you've used tow the line .. it's toe, one toes the line as in lines up with everyone else behind the line - toes touching it, like in parade .. that is the metaphor.
Ukrainians were never overrepresented among the elite either in the Russian Empire or in the Soviet Union. Of course, there were many Ukrainians on top positions, but this is simply the flip side of the fact that Ukrainians have always been a relatively numerous group.
You can make exactly the same statement about Russians - Russians were never overrepresented in the Soviet government because they simply were the largest group in the USSR.
@@Yasen99 that's true. Nothing contradictory towards what I wrote here
Bravo and thank you. Just the other day in conversation with one of my Finnish colleagues about the Soviet war against Finland, I've realized, that four of seven top Soviet commanders in this war: Voroshilov, Timoshenko, Shtern and Dukhanov were actually Ukrainians.
What do you make of that?
It's ironic, bc a great deal of European ancestry is Nordic/ Germanic, including of course Russia.
Which makes Putin's violent aggressive destructive setting of Europeans against each other such a cynical self serving piece of resentful bile!
Take about handing the world to China!
It's reminiscent of the survival of Muscovy through vassalage to the Golden Horde.
The Ukrainians fought the Bolsheviks for independence & lost; the USSR made good use of their talents, nothing unusual about that.
And the finno-ugric ppl once dominated the Baltic zone, so .. ??
It was an amazingly interesting discussion 👍🇺🇦
Nightcaps is such a great idea!
This is one of the best lectures on the future of Ukraine ever. I mean ever. Incredibly thought provoking and one mind blowing thought after another.
Yes, insofar as exploding the intellectual simplicity that colonialism represents in modern discussion; it's become a default bashing of Europeans, as if it wasn't the default position of humanity for millennia!
Like slavery has come to represent a very limited morally loaded anti European piece of history; Snyder's point about Rus, Slav & Canaan was outstanding.
I thought this discussion was chaotic, but that was useful bc it illuminated the problem of simplistic conceptions of human history.
I think Snyder would have been frustrated though, bc he wanted to get at Ukraine specific features or lessons within the frame of colonialism, which happened only peripherally.
The Ukrainian women offered real value, based in broad experience of other ppls experience of colonialism; the Ukrainian academic not so much (he had to much ego in the game)!
Niall was outstanding as an independent voice, rejecting the usefulness of universal themes.
Niall Ferguson was quite mature. We need to be able to unpack complex problems in a multi-layered approach. Ukraine has a very complex history and using the victim lens all the time will be detrimental to it, long-term.
no he wasnt
@@lenas6246yes he was .. see how that works? No I'm not you are! What are you 4?
A bit off topic, but I was impressed by Prof. Snyder teaching in a prison. When I was in grad school, this fell upon we lowly T.A.s, but I came to prefer those students over those fresh from highschool. The inmates always read the materials in advance and had good, penetrating questions and insights. They forced us to be much better teachers than we otherwise would have been. I can only hope we returned the favor.
Great discussion! I wonder if it was awkward for Ferguson and Snyder to be on the same panel :) Ferguson threw some shade on Snyder recently. Not very elegant
The indian (I think) gentleman brought nothing to the conversation.
Of course. Because he didn’t agree with the premise and was exceedingly patient with the nonsense Snyder and his Ukrainian yesmen (and yeswomen) were trying to concoct. Even Hrytsak disagreed. That tells you a lot. Ukrainian nationalists don’t want to be placed in the same category of the "subalterns" with the African Americans, the aborigines of Australia, the untouchables of India or the Roma tribes from Hungary. 🤣
@irinooka what did he do/say?
@@karelkieslich6772 He made a critique of Snyder's "On Tyranny" in an unbecoming way, let's say :) I like them both, hope they are friends. Here's the link to that lecture ruclips.net/video/0uRThTGeF08/видео.html
@@irinooka thanks!
@@irinookawhat a great coincidence😂 I was also surprised to see them on the same panel because of this lecture! Yet they both joined the event second time in a row, so for sure they manage to bear each other)). Also love them both. Timothy is more on humanitarian side of the history knowledge. And Nial is more about geography and economy. His mocking remarks on Snyder’s book are controversial somehow, but have some sense. It’s great experience to have their two different perspectives on the same issue!
It seemed to me that different people in this conversation were talking about different periods of Ukrainian history. On focused mainly on Soviet period, other tried to include at least some parts of Russian empire rule and third seemed to think mainly about recent decades and current Russian invasion of Ukraine. In the result I think that no real answer to the videos question was found.
No, Ukraine’s colonial history is too unique and cannot be shared by other peoples who think they were colonized
41:59 if hypocrisy is a sign of a "rules based order", did organized, cannonized religion play a part in constructing a rules-based order? Which came first? Religion or "rules based order"? Cannonized religions or governments? 41:59
Hypocrisy - a situation when somebody pretends to believe something that they do not really believe, or that is the opposite of what they do or say. Synonyms: dishonesty, insincerity, fraud. My question is: How are we organised Hypocrisy?! I mean it is a nice panel from different countries but something do not quite add up :) ❤LOVE
It is the negotiation of rules one does every day.
You both chose how you follow rules and where you make small "concessions". This action itself is respect towards rules and there are systems around dealing with (non-)compliance.
Organized hypocrisy is of course hyperbole. But it points towards this interesting thing -> following rules is not a state, it is a verb. It is something you do, not something you have.
And as such we talk about relationships to/with rules.
Lastly rules themselves are usually written to provide spaces, options and vectors. You have options and there are scales. It can and it will never be behaviour to rules as 1:1 relationship. At least it cannot be in free country. You can never predict what these humans do. And it is amazing.
Dislike hypocrisy, but understand why it exists.
Hypocrisy in the sense that we have values and ideals, but often don't live up to them. That's what it is to be human.
His point is that the only way to get rid of hypocrisy is to get rid of the rules entirely.
@@petrihadtosignupforthis8158yeah, no .. see below for fewer words & more meaning; you really should try to use less words with more common meanings.
@@Sphere723yes, well put; I would add that rules are made as a direct response to human self serving reality, as a means to direct it positively, by definition aspirationally.
What is Christianity other than this? The recognition of our selfish destructiveness & the need to direct it positively!
Presumably all religions are so, since all are formalisations of the conundrum of how to live in the face of the knowledge of death & the human condition - aspiring to something useful to defeat nihilistic suicidalism!
The 'death of God' expresses the loss of that guiding principle, & the risk of descent into nihilism.
Not that God is a supernatural being, but rather a supranatural concept of great psychological value to such a frail & self deceiving creature!
Yes, the abstracts of vocabulary will reflect part of the actual experience of individual people accurately. However, we must always respect the validity of every individual's experience.
So history is useless to aid in understanding anything bc we can't tell every story?
A new concept term ought to be implemented for regimes such as Putin's: Psychopathocracy
at 34 minutes: Always acknowledge and respect the validity of individual experience within the global order of laws, value etc. Might this be difficult to achieve? I expect so. Nonetheless, the great value of the democratic approach is that we commit to respect each person's definition of life by its qualities, then accommodate that definition in the drafting of rules.
at 38 minutes: We are known by our actions rather than our thoughts and words?
approximately 28 minutes :The colonial experience must be acutely aware hat very person has a unique experience. While we think it is important to develop abstract theories in order to more easily identify and understand what we are seeing from the outside, we must be careful to no recolonise individuals by placing their individual experiences into any of the abstract models without their active participation in that experience and have them meet our minds with our categorisation. Better yet, we must meet their minds in making these categorisations.
When institutions speak to the "International Rules-based Order" it is done primarily outside the context this discussion demonstrates. The agency and primacy of nation states is uncontested for the most part and is the basis for organizing international affairs. If we assume the community of nations is a hypocrisy, as Synder describes, we do have a basis for understanding the nature of communal dialog. Our institutions for perceived and objective fairness and justice is yet fully formed. Remembering an economic movement, fair trade, seemed to have elements of what could be helpful in understanding communal organizing. I am not preferring the concept as a solution, but as an example of thinking about any version or vision of a conceptual order.
I recently discovered this channel and found it fascinating. While the West invests heavily in shaping Ukraine's narrative, which is commendable, there's a noticeable silence about situations in countries like Libya and Yemen. Libya has been left to the Islamists, and Yemen faces an unending war, largely due to weapons supplied by the US to Saudi Arabia. The commentator from India did well to point out these double standards, which ironically undermine Ukraine's cause. I have close Ukrainian friends from the Erasmus Exchange, and my sympathies lie with them. However, this doesn't excuse the West's hypocrisy. I also notice unwarranted criticism of India in the comments. Many seem unaware of India's colonial history. At the time of its independence, only 3% of Indians were literate while UK had 100% literacy, a stark contrast to post-1990 Ukraine's literacy rate where people had the same literacy level as Russians I think that is enough to show the difference. While Ukraine has faced challenges, equating them with the horrors of slavery and colonialism is misguided and highlights further hypocrisy, especially when comparing their historical grievances with Russia.
I think you're comparing apples and Oranges. Russian has launched a war of conquest. Nobody is trying to annex Libya or Yemen, they are just civil wars were foreign governments are helping support one side or the other. Very different things.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to equate what happened to Ukrainians with « the horrors of slavery and colonialism » as you describe it, and one just needs to look at the Holodomor or the holocaust to convince himself, let alone political repressions, successive interdictions of the Ukrainian language, mass deportations, forced Russification etc. There is no point in comparing the suffering of different people, as you seem to do here, but if we were doing that Ukraine would not be an outlier when talking about colonized or oppressed peoples.
The hypocrisy, on the contrary, lies rather in negating the suffering and colonial experience of Ukrainians as compared to other African or Asian nations. Here also lies the double standard.
@@iloveOxmo I am sorry but do you know that a lot of the top people in Soviet union were Ukrainians? Infact Nikita and Brezhnev were both Ukrainian, can you imagine the King of British Empire to be some Nigerian? 😅 Don't talk about things you don't know as they say.
@@pankajsinha385 I am sorry but I know enough Russian and Ukrainian history not to be fooled by such arguments. That some members of the elite of the Ukrainian nation participated in both the Russian empire and the Soviet Union do not magically make these two entities and their attitude and policies towards Ukraine less imperialist in nature. Forced Russification and the suppression of the Ukrainian language were not particularly stopped under Brejnev or Kroutchev, in fact it even worsened under Brejnev.
The later, although born in Ukraine had Russian parents and himself identified as a Russian. As for Khrushchev he was also a Russian, from Kursk, who later moved to the Dombass and happened to have responsibilities in the Ukrainian ssr. But none of them were Ukrainians or identified as such.
@@pankajsinha385 just shut your mouth please. we are not an ethnonationalist shithole to care about that
A lot of what you say here is well taken. However sometimes landgrabs are directly connected to economical control, e.g. the Crimea grab by Russia gives control to the Black Sea and therefore huge control of Ukraine's economy , the sale of their grains around the world which are being blocked. This is the same centuries old reas various empires, Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth on the west and Russian Czarist Empire on tge east as well as later Hitler and Stalin on tge west and east respectively grabbed/ invaded Ukraine's breadbasket of Europe.
How do y resolve the issue of russian citizens of Ukraine?
That Scottish guy was pretty arrogant. Does he have any idea what is going on in Ukrsine? Has he watched the Russian Telegram video showing the 21 Roses torture technique?
His arrogance is part of the package: a humble Niall Ferguson is no Ferguson.
He's straightforward. Btw I liked his, Snyder's and Gumenyuk's response to the Indian guy putting his predictable shtick of neverending post-imperial inferiority complex
@@psychologianiestacjonarna6558 You see a “post-imperial inferiority complex” on the part of the Indian participant but don’t notice the elephant in the room - a burning and utterly vengeful inferiority complex which animates the Ukrainians…
Because the Ukrainians are not supposed to resist a russian invasion? :)
And who's invading India now? :)
@@Yasen99to whom? Ukrainians responding to being invaded, ethnically & culturally cleansed, bombed & murdered as we speak, is some kind of inferiority resentment?
You must be kidding!
waste of snyders time
This isn’t the first Indian that has a chip on his shoulder. This anger and resentment from Indians against the US and our allies reminds me of Russians over the last 15 years. Who will aid Pakistan when they are invaded and/or nuked by India? China? Will Ukraine continue to relate with India or Pakistan when they go to war? Ukrainians ought to be upset with Indians for their support of Russia.
Actually the west didn't help India during its conflicts with China and Pakistan but instead helped them look at the 1971 war with Pakistan. First get your history correct and second India has an active conflict going on with these countries, which european country has stood with India? Bashing India won't help Ukraine.
@@pankajsinha385 I’m not referring to anything historical. Your anger and resentment are helping me prove my point about Indians. Thanks.
@@PresidentCamacho24 You yourself pointed out Pakistan and China's conflict with India and I just mentioned some details of our conflict with them which are not just historical but current. I didn't show any anger or resentment but just stated the facts, also I mentioned western governments, not the people in your case you are pointing at Indians in general, that's 1.4 billion people. As they say, no point arguing with an ignorant person.
@@pankajsinha385 No I didn’t. I mentioned the three parties in South Asia and you made a lot of assumptions. Just let it go. Also I’m not here for your history lesson. Take care.
Blah, blah, blah...
Ukraine never existed until 1922 and the region of present-day Ukraine has always been part of some other nation.
Can you provide an example of a nation which has always existed?
@@Sphere723 Ukraine never existed in antiquity, and to present it as a nation that was more important than the Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Ottoman Empire, and the Russian Empire is ridiculous.
The Kyivian Rus disappeared during the Mongol Golden Horde invasion, and after that, the Poliish And Lithuanian Empires had control; the Cossacks and Crimean Tatars were Turkric-speaking people, and not Eastern Slavic, and the Kyian Rus were replaced by Eastern Slavic Slavonic Speaking people. The Vikings Rus were long gone.
Then, the Ottomans controlled the Northern Black Sea region and the Russian Empire. Ukraine never had a Black Sea Coast until 1922, when the Bolsheviks put Ukraine together.
So if you search all Treaties in the region, the word Ukraine or Borderlands is never mentioned, and they never reached the Black Sea Coast as the Ottomans, the Crimean Khanate, and the Zaporizhzian Cossacks stood in their way
There is no historical link between the Crimean Khanate and the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, and hence, the land now called Ukraine is a very modern creation.
The Polish East Galicia and Volhynia, which the Soviets added to Ukraine in 1939, was the center of Polish Eastern Culture; Ukraine built nothing.
Berassarabia was added to Ukraine and was a region taken from Moldova by the Soviets and was part of the Russian Empire along with Odesa, Mykolaiv, Melitopol, and Berdynansk-founded cities.
To make out that Ukraine was this greater superior empire is ridiculous and portrays a sense of desperation on the part of present-day Ukraine and their paid Historians like Timothy Snyder.
If Ukraine was so brilliant, powerful, brave, and handsome, wouldn't they have an empire that reached as far east as the Bering Straight and encompassed Northern Europe to the Barents Sea in the Arctic Circle?
But no, they relied on the protection as others, all talk, all demanding, and always complaining about people never giving them enough stuff for free, just like Soviet Times and very much like today.
The Soviets built Modern Ukraine, Industrialised it, and created its Water System, it Nuclear Plants, Shipbuilding, and Aerospace. People from former Polish And Lithuanians were predominantly rural and Serfs run by Polish Nobles.
So there you have it, Ukraine in a nutshell in 2 minutes as opposed to Snyder’s 40-hour lecture, in which he talks mainly about the Polish Lithuania CommonWealth and not about the Russian Empire, which he conveniently fails to mention.
So the answer to my question is no?
@@Sphere723 Ukraine never existed until 1922, so there was no use talking about the Greater Ukrainian Empire encompassing all the diverse peoples and tribes.
I cannot find any reference to the name Ukraine in the annuals of History; even Suleman the Great, Alexander the Great, Ivan the Terrible, and Catherine the Great have never heard of this Nation during their time.
Helene of Troy, the so-called Helene of Ukraine did not know the place; she only knew Sparta, Anthenia, Macedonia, Ionian, and Troy.
So let us take ourselves back to 1240; the Mongols wiped out the Kyivian Rus; as a power, they too receded, the remains of which are the Cossack Tribes, the Central Asian Krygiz, Kazaks, Uzbeks, Tajiks, the Azeri, and the Crimean Khanate.
The Polish Slavs replaced the Mongols in Kyiv, the Viking Rus disappeared, and Moscovy developed as a power; there was no magical Ukrainian Empire comprised of Poles, Lithuanians, Rutheren, Cossacks, Berrarabians and Tatars that formed this magical Kingdom of Ukraine.
This is an invention of Timothy Snyder, and it never existed. The Bolsheviks forged modern-day Ukraine into the Nation that existed from 1922 to 1991, they lost the Gift of Crimea in 2014 and the Donbas, Zaporizhia, and Southern Kherson in 2022.
This happens in the annuals of History, so get over it.
You must update your map and stop crying about Ukraine.
@@cliveengel5744nobody painted Ukraine as a grand empire, and Snyder did cover extensively the Russian empire in his lectures, quite obviously but it’s probable you never got to that part as it was later in Ukrainian history (1658/1708 to 1917), if you ever watched his lectures at all, which I doubt.
Plus, whether Ukraine started to exist as a polity in 1922 or 1991, it doesn’t matter and is no argument to deny their right to exist as nation in 2022.
You’re not using the vocabulary of a reasonable person who wants to debate here, but you rather seem on a mission to push a certain agenda, which is sad.
I've read Tolstoy, too long and too last last century, and to a Scottish fella, his country men are not being exterminated at the moment, and if they were he would change his mind, not only I don't want to read Tolstoy, I don't even want hear that language, yes, I can tolerate my Mom who is a russian speaking ,, but that's about it,
Tolstoy philosophy is “ Do not repay anyone evil for evil”, which I totally agree with. Just imagine what will happen if someone assaults someone and other assaults back and this will carry on. Russians felt they were assaulted by bombardment in Ukrainian Donbas ethnic Russians, allowing freely in Ukraine ultra right parades ( 20 million died in USSR fighting them, that is five times more than recent Scotland), also Russian government got frustrated that in-spite of agreementNATO continued to spread ( look at Cuban conflict what was at stake when the same could happen to USA). So Russia did not follow Tolstoy idea. They retaliated. Ukraine replied. And now thousands men from both countries continue to loose their limbs, burn, becoming blind, deaf, paralysed, dead.Just imagine if everyone followed Tolstoy path.If Ukraine never bombarded airport in Donbas, houses , just let them live, affiliated with Russia, put big fences, borders. If Russia instead of revenge, got evacuated all millions who were in disagreement with Kyiv regime having only Ukrainian schools,not allowing print in Russian ( half population in Ukraine speaks Russian). And so on … what you think would happen if Ukrainians stop to fight? Ukraine as republic existed in Soviet Union for decades. They had their language, schools, even film studios with Ukrainian language unlike colonialism in Canada, Australia, New Zealand where children were beaten in schools for speaking native language. I do believe some unjustifiable cruelty was imposed on Scots as well. My point is… Russian people, philosophy are as anybody’s else, with good and evil motives. They have incredible thoughts and ideas, unfortunately not all Russians follow it.
@@taniadavenport2939 first:who told you that donbass is ethnically russian? Second: Nobody signed any treaties with russia about NATO not expending to the east, putin was talking about joining NATO also. Third russia doesn't decide who goes to NATO and who doesn't, that decision falls on each sovereign country . Basically all you wrote is bunch of nonsense, I don't have time to go through each sentence which is bunch of russian propaganda, you don't know the history of ussr or russia or Ukraine, so all you repeating is bunch of nonsense from russian tv, I feel sorry for you and you go the same way that рускій воєнний карабль went. I'm sure you know where .
@@andreysavin1931 You got a bit nervous, young man, if you can not reply with manners, trying put me down to your level . I do not watch Russian propaganda, but looks like you are watching Western a lot. I lived in the country which consisted of Russia and Ukraine. I read Ukrainian point of view and Russian point of view, and Western.
One. If you look at “Russian language in Ukraine” wiki article in English.
2001 census
74.9%Donetsk oblast
68.8% Luhansk oblast
Using Russian language as native.
What other criteria you attribute to ethnicity if not language.
However in whole Ukraine Russian networks were prohibited since 2017. How is that for democracy and free speech?
Poroshenko ( one of UKrainian presidents) promised cut citizens of Ukraine in this region ( look up Poroshenko speech) from funding as they showed affiliations to Russia. Where was in Ukraine support for two languages like in Canada? No, Ukrainian oligarchs preferred to funnel their money ( quite often illegally taken from Ukrainian citizens) abroad, buying villas and yachts.
Two. Maybe no treaties, however isn’t a common sense that if NATO get extended to the territories which already primed with neonazist ideas ( where else you could see in Europe marches with swastika, but plenty of those on RUclips with Ukraine plus “ moskalyaku na gilyaku”- hangmoskovites), it creates danger for national security. Again, why USA did not want Soviet rockets on Cuba, even there no one yelled hangAmericans). I am against this war . So I am not willing to join it. Looks like you are for, so get some balls, go fight for Ukraine and maybe you understand that it is a bit different from “ Call of Duty”.
@@taniadavenport2939 sure, I'm very nervous lol 😆 and the rest I did not read because I'm sure like all the previous nonsense you started this one with the same nonsense
@@andreysavin1931 This is not written only for you , but for people who can see a bit deeper in life. Maybe you can mature one day and be able to read more than couple pages of Tolstoy, couple of chapters at least.