This explains so much, from why I always felt safer when I was (for example) at school (therefore away from parents), to why I get really upset and frustrated (sometimes to extreme levels) when I can’t find something. Thank you, I’m loving this series
Yes, that sense of panic when you can't find something can be so intense. I can't imagine feeling relaxed and knowing it will be just where you left it or will simply turn up.
In conjunction with object permanence, I remember being younger and having a toy of mine stolen by another girl and it really disgruntled me as a 4 year old. My grandmother even got me the same one and I still was still unsettled about it bc it was not the same physical stuffed animal. I’ve thought about it a fair amount of times in my life.
I am german and live in germany. I AM SO HAPPY that I found your channel. I am diagnozed with DID, but I still can not believe it. YOUR EXPLANATIONS HELP ME lot. And you speak a wonderful english, so I can understand you very well. I hope, you read this, because I am SO THANKFUL
Both videos were very helpful. We're a DID system and dealing with the havoc childhood trauma has caused. Developmental milestones may have been met but definitely skewed. Keep these videos coming, please. They are invaluable. They make me sad for my team but learning helps us heal.
This explains so many things in our daily life. The exhaustion we experience when trying to present «normal» and in control, while simultaneously trying to get everything to add up as different parts intervene, moves or changes things. And the totally over exaggerated reactions if anything is taken og misplaced by family members…
Thank you so much for this series! These 2 parts alone have given me a greater underatanding of why we operate in the way that we do. My roommate often asks me to get rid of stuff I am obviously no longer using (to avoid clutter) but it's always felt wrong to do so. Because that's not necessarily *my* stuff. It belongs to someone in my system and I don't want them returning to front only for them to realise that I threw away their favourite shoes or got rid of their journal.
I loved that you mentioned a patient having taught you the rubiks cube. It confirms the importance of the relationship; I doubt there's a Rubicks methodology in the literature. My therapist let me teach him about knots. That's knot a methodology either. But it has certainly helped tie together the relationship.
5:50 My entire childhood.. the entirety of it.. I'm alone and scared and no one would come. When you started talking about this it just.. wow.. I had no idea that's what it was supposed to feel like I had absolutely no idea.
@thectadclinic thank you so much for saying so..~ It's been an entire life of manipulation and emotional neglect it's been so terribly lonely. Your videos are such a help for me to figure things out and get my life on track. They can make me a bit sad because of the topic but.. the information you provide is invaluable you're a favorite of mine 💜
ok yea, keep these coming for sure. weve literally had multiple meltdowns in the past two weeks about the EXACT same concept you talk about - "Everything Is Wrong," we call it - the rule (we've learned) is that at *least* one thing Goes Wrong, every single time, no matter what, without fail, regardless of time or context or scenario or confounding variables, etc. etc. ... i genuinely cannot express to you how deeply, REVOLTINGLY disturbing the events of our life have been these last few months, and how incessantly the point that everything will go wrong has been driven home - on EVERY. SINGLE. LEVEL of our existence. its genuinely eerie that these videos are this relevant to us. thanks for giving us more to talk about with our therapist tho lol. psychology has been a fascination of ours for years, but we've never really thought about object permanence from this angle before, so the clarity weve gained from learning what you discussed here *does* genuinely help 💖
I’m so glad. Hearing what you describe resonates with me at times as well, that sense that you’re just waiting for the ‘fail around the corner’. It is exhausting.
I feel this so hard. Ours is "No matter what, unless it was a direct order, we WILL fail in SOME way, even if it takes time." Eventually, you sorta end up feeling like, "why bother trying?" But you have to. There's never a chance to catch your breath. Always one thing after another. "SOME thing must always be wrong." 😅😑🤦
@@Jack.0ctober yeah :/ idk how we've made it this far or how much longer we can last in this cycle. the fallout just gets worse after every subsequent disaster
Is there a difference between object permanence and people permanence? I don't have any difficulty believing something will be where I left it, but heaven help my therapist if he breaks an established contact routine - he'll get a frantic email asking "Are you still there?" Having a person show up again feels more like magic, and I'm always asking, "Why is that person still here?"
For us when people are gone, they sometimes just stop existing, until something usually external reminds us "oh yeah that person exists"@thectadclinic
This is really thought provoking in the context that a few of our abusers - including one caretaker - we never knew from minute to minute what would set them off and cause the abusive behavior. This confusion and lack of reliability in their behavior was often more frightening than the abuse itself. Is this a cause of hypervigilence, in the sense that there's no "permanence" that we can count onso we're on guard all the time and expecting the worst just to be ready? Or am I way off?
What you’re describing is absolute unpredictability of the worst kind, and should never feature in ordinary development. Such experience really throws so much off kilter, it being so awful on so many levels.
I had the same experience. My mom was so unpredictable. Sometimes she was warm and caring. Other times she was irrationally demanding, screaming, and physically violent. And she could go from one to the other so quickly, with just the slightest provocation. Like, it could be as trivial as she set down her pencil and couldn't find where she put it. I was constantly anxious and hypervigilant around her. At the same time, she was the only person who seemed to love me and be invested in my well-being. She was the only one who ever said nice things about me or that I didn't deserve all the shitty treatment I got from my dad and siblings (who were also abusive to me). She was unfortunately unaware of how shitty her own treatment of me was. As far as I can recall, she's only ever apologized to me once, and it was after she had gotten especially violent with me for literally just standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, leaving me bruised for at least a week. She seemed to at least realize that that particular instance was wrong, that her behavior was excessively violent, and that I had done nothing wrong to warrant the violence (not that violence is ever warranted, but she believed in corporal punishment, so she usually felt okay with being violent if she thought I had done something wrong to "deserve" it). But the apology was so paltry and was mostly her trying to explain her own shitty behavior as if she were a victim of circumstance and couldn't help it. I was the straw that broke the camel's back, as she put it. As if that were sufficient to repair the damage that was done... To make matters worse, I'm autistic, and I struggled a lot socially. I would get negative reactions from others and have no idea why. I couldn't predict them or understand what was going wrong. Between that and my mom, I've been hypervigilant for as long as I can remember. It never goes away. Even when the anxiety is manageable, it's always there in the background. I still jump at the slightest sounds and am constantly screening for danger in social situations. I always feel like people are unpredictable, and I hate it.
This made so much sense of everything. We've been researching DID since about a year before we ended up discovering our own system to support a loved one, but nothing we watched or read talked about object permanence and its broader application to life and one's perception of reality. We didn't realize what a major impact it had on us in all the little things throughout our childhood -- parents divorcing and remarrying, friends and family moving away, belongings disappearing, people we trusted becoming distant and unreliable... We thought we had our splits pinned down to two abusers, but this made us realize that it goes much deeper, stemming from so so so many things....
OK, 20 years in and out of therapy, this is the first time I've actually understood 'attachment'! I didn't understand how therapists kept saying 'no parental attachment' when I was exceptionally attached to my mother - literally, daily caring for her. Now I understand, it's not an attachment physically or emotionally, it's an attachment born of trust that they are 'permanent' and reliable - which, as an alcoholic, she couldn't be. And that was reinforced daily because I was caring for her and worrying about her and mitigating the consequences of her behaviour, instead of being able to trust that she (and by extension me and my siblings) would survive without my presence and intervention. So my 'attachment' was to my big sister instead - because she was reliable and permanent (to the extent a 3-5year old can be!). And then she got sick and I was told I needed to look after her, which destroyed my sense of her permanence and reliability. Yikes! It also explains why school was so important, because teachers were the same, buildings were the same, the routine was consistent, the lessons were consistent. Learning spelling was fun - because it was always the same letters! Learning math was fun because the answers didn't change depending on the weather or the mood of the adult! Object permanence.
This is fascinating, as always!! Knowing you are able to create so much certainty + predictability makes me feel really bad for us autistic folks who also are dissociative. Even outside of OSDD/DID, many of us need access to dissociation to survive how overstimulating the world is for us. But it’s hard to control. Then due to the dissociation, and co-occurring trauma histories, we lose access to the predictability and certainty you have. I do see the ADHD layer too. I learned the correct term for object permanence past the early developmental stage you described here is object constancy. So for those of us who deal with that, it’s really stressful too. Today my dad took me to a store bc I’m working on our agoraphobia. I notice I only do better when I have more dissociation access. So I did great at the store then I came out and said “why is mom’s car here?” And he was laughing (we laugh to relate, my dad is AuDHD too). We parked next to a truck that looks like my dad’s and I got confused, because I recognized my mom’s license plate but my eyes didn’t even take in the other license plate nor remember my dad’s in the moment… nor what car we took to the place. Not even the conversation we had prior to walking into the store where apparently I asked my dad to park next to the truck that looked like his. It’s.. a lot. I deny my reality with being on the OSDD/DID spectrum because my parents are incredible and provided a good life for me, and still do. I never felt safe at school, with extended family, or out in the world. I always needed my parents help for safety and support. And somehow despite having access to developmental milestones and great parents, I still ended up with all of this complex trauma because the outside world didn’t provide the predictability, certainty, safety, and trust that my parents did.
I feel you,. As DID-systems we need great power, thats why we are able to connect on a deeper level with natural world and powers. (Autism) My system need animals to survive with their adustability they have in their survivalinstincts. Also the energy trees have, (and I felt) in dangerous times. Mother Earth is helping us, talk to yourself in the best way you can, would be my advice. My parents, brother and sister have autism and didsystems too, but the outside world and the people i met was far more dangerous! Nature and animals helped me survive. Inside the farmhouse I watched Wald Disney cartoons, and read Wald Disney books. Our dog looked after me, when my brother and sister went to school.
I lose things a lot (despite my objects having set places they should live in). I've misplaced really important documents before and I feel like I can't even trust myself when I put something down. I thought I'd get used to losing things but every time it happens it's always extremely upsetting. Thanks for the video, as always.
Growing up, i was the oldest of 7 kids. Im not sure or specifically cannot remember the fine details on why i turned out plural and my siblings didnt. But! So many other children running around getting into things made it really difficult to protect anything i cared about. Removing toys that caused screaming was a common parenting tactic. This explains why i put stuff i care about so, so high up in the house, and why the only objects i really get attached to are phones, game consoles, and computers. Those were protected items, no one was allowed to run off with them. They were always there, more commonly than any other job or person that i interacted with, and they contained far more variety and growth material for me than anything else. I think thats a reason why i get angry sometimes when i cant find chargers or power cords. Stuff is being taken from me, even though no one is being malicious.
WOW. I have never experienced that complete certainty. I didn't even know that was something that some people just, expect, or live with every day. My life has functioned around the idea that things WON'T be there, there is no security, and in likely every interaction/perception I have, there is always something I am missing. This was super informative... thank you.
I become "blind" for objects sometimes, and search a lot until the things are where they should be, I just couldn't see them. But that is perhaps an all together different story?
This is a common issue for me as well. It's like I got so used to things missing and being moved by "myself" and others, that I just started to learn that things just disappear or move. I can't trust that anything will be where I last left or saw it. It could just be gone forever as well. I've stared at things I've been looking for, people can point at the thing and describe where it is, and I still can't see it! If they pick it up it's like it magically appears in their hand! It's quite distressing and annoying, usually I just close my eyes and use my hands to feel what's around if I can't find something with my eyes.
Same, happened to me the other day, had a dollar in my hand started getting nervous then I blanked out for a second and it was gone. Couldnt find it anywhere, checked my pockets, floor and everything, it was gone.
Wow! At 9 minute 50 seconds, you just explained why my mom, who has borderline personality disorder, would scream at me when I was a child and tell me that I put something somewhere but I didn't do it! Or she would become unglued if I moved something or didn't put it back the right way. I never, ever, related this back to whole object permanence. This is a really stunning example of how it can go wrong in my mom. In me it looks a little different, and I'm also healing on an integrative path. It's really a paradox that through a healing path you can discover more about the parent that wounded you than perhaps you were ready for, and then understand this was the way/how they injured you too. 😢
Hi, Good video! I asked this question a while ago, but I don't know if this topic will be in a video. I would really like that. I have OSDD, and was once misdiagnosed with psychotic disorder NOS, many years ago. Can you make a video about the difference between psychotic voices and 'voices' of parts in DID/OSDD? Because I often read that people with DID/OSDD first get the wrong diagnoses. With all the consequences, and especially lost time. For me about 12 years! Thank you
That's a good question. I was partially aware of being a system when I was younger, but I was reluctant to tell anyone about "the voices in my head" because I didn't want it to be mistaken for psychosis. I knew the voices were parts of me, but they felt separate from me at the same time. I wish I'd known more about dissociative disorders back then. I probably could have self-diagnosed my OSDD a long time ago if I'd had access to the relevant information.
Further, where i am in my healing, i have no idea if that concepts your talking about will help, but the contrast in both videos has been illuminating and exciting. Thanks doc. My therapist says ive got way better an education about my condition than most patients who find their way to her, and that its a good education. Thanks. Ill appreciate your videos if you keep making them
As I was listening to this, it made me realize that during all those times, when I "lost" an item, either moved or sitting in front of me, that there was possibly that other alternative states were showing up without me realizing it. It often happens so fast, that I barely recognize it, and often leads me to think I am just going insane. But this helps, place more perceptive on it.
Now I understand better about experiences because of developing cocosciousness at the beginning of dissociation. I regularly feel or even ask, Did I dream this took place or was it actually reality? It seems to be connected to Object Permanence concepts. I appreciate learning this. Thank you, Dr. Mike.
This has been so incredibly informative! It explains the entire reason for our use of the ‘attachment cry’; something we know we do but not the WHY.. incredible stuff :3 Might I suggest on how to get through to parts stuck in trauma time?? No matter what we do, we cannot seem to self regulate our little trauma holder, and it is not practical nor healthy to rely on others to try and regulate him.. and it never works for long, unless he is close to the figures he is attached to. He has zero object permanence.
@@thectadclinic indeed we did, but I forget so we will rewatch! Thank you again for your videos, (and your comments which remind us) they are BEYOND helpful :3
ME TOO ! Then I had a panic attack and dissociated again, I went from totally freaking out because I felt real fear when thinking about death, to nothing at all in a split second !
@Bullebizzare oh god, I'm sorry to hear that! Me going back into it was simply bc of pure trauma. :/ It's so terrible when it stops but then happens again and it's totally out of your control
Like part one, this video resonated very strongly with me. I had no stability or safety in my familial relationships in my early childhood. I had a disorganized attachment to both my parents. Both were abusive, both were neglectful, and both occasionally provided for some of my needs (my dad the practical, my mom the emotional). It made for such a complicated attachment situation, because I needed to both move towards them and away from them. I felt afraid without them, but also afraid with them. Making things even more chaotic, with my dad, I was less afraid of physical abuse (his was predictable and avoidable if I followed his rules) and my basic physical needs were taken care of (food, clothing, shelter, etc.), but I was much more emotionally neglected, manipulated, and gaslit. With my mom I was somewhat less emotionally neglected (she actually loved me, tried to support my emotional needs and development, and occasionally had moments of warmth), but with her I was much more heavily abused physically and psychologically (she was violent and unpredictable with a short fuse, also very controlling and heavy-handed with shame). She also lived in poverty, so there was a lot more physical deprivation when with her (although I still always had food and shelter, just not a comfortable environment like I had with my dad, more or less). I grew up feeling like an orphan---superficially supported, but with no one I could truly count on to keep me safe or meet my needs. I can almost never fully attach to anyone or anything, because the devastation I would feel at the loss would be unmanageable. I'll only take the risk if someone proves to me, over and over again over a long period of time, that they can be relied upon in the ways that I need. Because to finally get what you need and then lose it again suddenly is heartbreaking. I felt like anything good I got when growing up was ripped away from me over and over again, until I finally disconnected from my emotions so that I could stop being so vulnerable to that pain. Part of me shut down, became inaccessible, and I no longer felt constant unbearable pain. But I also could not get emotionally attached to anything. Most things just don't affect me emotionally... or more like, I'm disconnected from how things affect me emotionally and struggle to recognize and feel my own feelings.
I have a baby part that is lying in a crib. Mother is not present, in another room possibly. The baby is crying out for our mother but mother doesn't come. The baby is wondering if mother can hear or maybe she' not there at all. The baby wonders if the mother is hearing their cries and if she just doesn't care about them. The baby feels uncared for and feels sad. This would mean the baby does have the object permanence then. But feels abandoned. Thank you for this video ❤
my mom has always hid and moved the objects, clothes, anything around the house. I would never find something where I've left it, which was causing me a lot of anger and a sense of helplessness. I wonder now why was she doing that...control? her own trauma? what? thank you for this video, I have never thought that hiding objects could have had an impact of any kind
People have always wondered why we had massive reactions to losing an item. It definitely causes an immense amount of stress and feels like it's completely gone, never knew that it was because of object permanence not being taught properly in us. Your channel is very helpful, I may send these to our therapist to talk over
No infant is taught object permanence. Piaget would tell you that himself. It is a cognitive, not emotional, concept that emerges from brain development in all babies unless they are brain damaged. It can be lost due to brain disease or damage. But it is not taught. Ever. People being seen as trusted sources of security even when they cannot be present? THAT is a learned concept. That is not object permanence.
We'll that was abrupt. Going to need to come back to this one. As soon as you mentioned being relieved when caregivers left we immediately got a headache and started feeling floaty and disconnected.
First, Thank you for this new series. I've often asked the Spouse what it is like to be a singleton? someone who doesn't have DID. The second is a question. If I understand this correctly, you don't worry nor forget about things that you "don't see"? I find that strange and amazing. I'm looking forward to learning more about what life is like for non-DID/OSDD individuals in general.
I'm not a system, nor do I have any dissociative symptoms, I just follow this channel because I know someone who does deal with dissociation. I thought I might try to answer your question though just so that you got an answer. I do not worry or forget objects that I can no longer see. I live with my husband but I usually have a pretty good idea of where things in my house are. I have a pretty good idea of what's in my fridge/cupboards and I can often imagine where I last put something when it seems to be lost. I never really get the sense that things have spontaneously moved. Objects are where I expect them to be, or they are not there because my husband has put them somewhere else. Haha.
@ thank you for answering. It helped. I find it amazing that there are people who can do that. For us it’s all we’ve ever known so any other way of living and thinking can sometimes boggle my mind. lol yeah, spouses are good at that. So are kids no matter their age.
@@lainey9092that’s more or less it! It just isn’t something I need to devote any time or thought to, unless something odd has happened (like a cat knocked something off from where it should be…)
Was waiting for this one. Ok - I don’t have trouble with objects not being where I left them. I seem to have a great memory for that. But, is that because I have gotten so good at keeping things in the exact same place? Also, my distress level when things are not in the right spot is through the roof. And where I check more boxes of what you’ve said is more in the abstract? The sense of who a person is to me and me to them, vanishes when the person is not there in front of me. Even someone I’ve known for 10 years. It’s far worse with people I know well. Am I too much picking apart details? Sure that if I don’t fit everything you say I’m lying? I wish someone could scan my head and tell me for sure if something is wrong or not. I am so sick of my head. Thank you for another video. Can problems with object permanence get better? Dissociative or not?
This was incredibly helpful, thank you so much! I often wonder why life is so exhausting, even if nothing special happens. I did not think of this, though it’s completely logical and understandable.
Omg. So this is why I get so upset when my spouse moves my stuff (which is very very infrequent and only for a reason).... And this is why when growing up, school was always better than home. Might even explain issues with driving places. (the navigation part, not the driving part) I definitely appreciate the developmental lens you're applying here.
These are my favorite! And Ive watched all videos multiple times. Id like to know more about how an “associated” person experiences the natural fluctuations of the self
But are you certain when you look at the cube that it really is exactly as you left it? Like you can tell if someone came and made one turn on the cube?
@thectadclinic this blows my mind. I have to really focus hard on getting into a routine and making sure I put things in their designated place every day so I don't lose them (Like my car keys, lunch bag, meds etc). Eventually it becomes second nature, but if I'm not paying attention, I'll misplace sometime important and then panic bc I can't find it (like my phone). I can't imagine always knowing where I've set things without needing fail safe's in place to prevent losing stuff!
@emmalyckajacobsson590 that's clever!!! I have a specific routine I do in the shower so I don't forget to wash anything. It usually works... Usually 😅🤣
I am a mother of 3 and before I even knew I was dissociative I used to take away things from my kids when they misbehaved and then couldn’t ever find it when I went to give it back. My kids were smart l, so I had to hide things well, lol. It drove me and my kids nuts! I now know why, but haven’t shared this as my kids are older now.
I guess that’s why I get so stressed out when I can’t find something. Once an item is missing I never know if it still exists or if I’d gotten rid of it.
I think you may have just helped me solve a long-term mystery regarding why it's so deeply upsetting to me when objects that "I just had in my hand" disappear out of sight. I don't have DID, but dissociation was a significant factor in adolescence, young adulthood. Having things "disappear" triggers that feeling of unreality. Unreliability. Unease.
This explains a lot. I have a question about de difference between the degrees alters experience the world and themselves. Why are some alters sensitive and some not. Why can some alters filter the environment and focus on one thing and some alters have no filters, to the degree they cannot exist in this world? And everything between. How can alters learn to filter? Or is that just the way it is?
I constantly forget where I put items (such as a well-liked pen) and become very upset. My head-mates help me to calm down but telling me where THEY may have put it and we go searching. They help me fill in the time gaps and to calm down
I have executive dysfuntion issues from autism and ADHD and I get inordinately wound up when I lose things. I was thinking this was a shame thing but the video suggests something more. Is there a relationship between disorganised attachment and general disorganisation?
This being insecure wether people or things are coming back or present. Can it manifest like a need of secure borders: like this is mine, do not take it? And can it manifest in being insecure about what I have done vs not done. An example: ask me once:have you done this, I will know the answer, but if the question is repeated I',ll become more and more insecure, not knowing the answer.
Okay, so after watching now... I have a question/comment? This may be a bit jumbled and difficult to follow, so I apologize for that. It’s either that or I don’t say anything hehe… 😅 Idk if you've seen my previous comment, but I have DID. These videos are incredibly helpful for me. Just one thing though? You do a great job of explaining what would've happened to a person/infant at the developmental milestone age (in this case I think you said 4-6 months?); what experiences they would've had with their parents, etc. in order for them to have developed “normally.” One thing that would make these videos feel complete for me would be if you did the same with a dissociative person. I know the idea of these videos is what it's like to NOT be dissociative, but in doing so, you're basically helping us dissociatives (well, me at least) understand a bit where things in our past may have gone wrong. For me at least, that is EXACTLY the kind of thing I need to know in order to take more steps forward. What happened that wasn’t supposed to? Okay, let’s do some trauma processing on that. What didn’t happen that should have? Do I have any parts who feel like they need to experience that in order to improve our current symptoms? Then let’s do some internal work with it. Etc. I suppose it would make sense for one to assume the answers would just be the opposite of whatever you explain for the non-dissociative infant experiences, but… idk, it just doesn’t seem that way? Not based on what you did explain from the point of view of a dissociative individual who is older and already struggling with the results of not having those experiences as an infant (not forming secure attachment, poor grasp of object permanence, etc.). For example, you said everyone learns object permanence and I guess I don’t lack it completely, but it’s BARELY there and it manifests itself in many unfortunate ways throughout different aspects of my life. Yes, it makes sense that I’d struggle with that considering the DID and different parts moving things around, throwing them away and all that, but what happened when we were an infant trying to learn object permanence that caused it to fail and us to end up so dissociative in the first place? This is just one example I’m using because it’s the easiest one to work with, I’m not specifically stuck on object permanence. Am I overthinking all of this? Lol. Is it really just the opposite of whatever the “normal” experiences would be for a non-dissociative person? 😂
I think the question you are posing is more what would be worked out in therapy. To gain a full understanding of the unique qualities of a family, the attachments, relationships, ways of responding/not responding etc.
This might be a very obvious question, but I’ve struggled with dissociation for as long as I can remember. However, I don’t have very much memory of trauma… I can admit my family is dysfunctional, but the lack of memory of anything “significant” has always been an insecurity for me when seeking help. Especially the fear that I’ll be invalidated or not believed. Is dissociation always a result of trauma? Are there other causes? I love this channel. It’s such an important resource! Thank you for the work you do
Can you do a a video about dissociative fugue with travel (dissociative fugue disorder) a subtype of DA and how it differs from DID fugues. I am a DFD patient. Pls & thank you.
@thectadclinic Awesome!! There is like next to zero videos on the subject. And the rare few are movie tropes or docs on cases like Hannah Upp but NO real explanations. This would mean a lot to me.
Wait. This is the same thing as “boundaries”. I get destroyed if my wife moves my dresser and piles the clothes on the bed. If I am not there. I feel violated. I don’t care if you look through it, and put it back. Don’t move it! That can kill trust. Thank you. Now I understand why a little better. How to deal with those situations would be a great video. From a patient point of view. Asking for a friend!
Yeah, it's always a thing that *I* buy chocolate. It's *mine* . And then _someone_ eats it and when I go for the chocolate, it isn't there. And then sometimes I get smartass comments of "The body is the same, doesn't matter who ate it!" IT DOES!! IT WAS _MINE_ !!! But this was back then when there still was an alter that was out almost as often as I was. ..and I still at times miss her :' )
Thanks so much for this video. What might disrupt the conceptualisation of cause and effect in development? As people, we do stuff all day every day that has clear causes and effects, but when I try to think of this mentally, there is a disconnect. Is this a symptom of dissociation or a developmental disruption? I find it an unsettling feeling and very hard to describe.
Hello and thank you for your videos! I have a few questions that have lingered in my brain for a few years now and I couldn’t find a scientific answer. The answers would be very dearly to me since i directly dealing with those conditions and aside from that I am just also extremely curious what happens to early childhood development when there a parameter changed, that’s bot necessarily trauma but might become one? : What about adhd people who become blind for objects as soon as they’ve seen it in a certain place a few times? How does that impact dissociation? Since objects just disappear into the chaos surrounding. What does it mean regarding relationships, too? And a question regarding the previous video of this series: how does this developmental step evolve in blind and visually impaired people, since they obviously will not have the social smile? Is there any science around this? Also: how does depersonalization play into it all? Thank you very much in case you take time to answer one or two or all questions of mine. (Got some more, just in case)
VIDEO IDEA: I'd love to see how dissociation presents differently if someone is an internalizer or an externalizer. My mother was an externalizer, she has borderline. I grew up the scapegoat and so I'm an internalizer. Whole object relations misfires look very different on each population. I can compare how my mom handles her dissociative problems, and see that I came about approaching the world in a completely different way with the same injury.
You would love Bethany Brand/Lowenstein piece on dissociation. Basically, she quotes Anderson that borderlines alter their external reality to save their sense of cohesion (you are either "all bad" to them, or "all good) and people with DID alter their internal reality( multiple self-states) to retain a sense of external connection to the world and others. It is almost poetic in its simplicity.
Could someone please help direct me to a video that explains how I can help (or more specifically) how I can show someone I care for who I have strong suspicions of being DID, that I genuinely care about them? I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be asking help with? Ummm oh I guess I want to be able to recognise some clear-ish signs (other than the ones I’ve experienced with them over the years) that might show me they’re either in denial or they know but they just don’t trust me. And if that’s the case, what might I be doing wrong to make them feel that way? Please 🙏 I think I should mention that I have adhd which is probably not the best personality type for someone with genuine and very serious trust issues because I can be spasmodic, unreliable because I’m often late, and I’m disorganised and forgetful and oh crap, just writing these things down is making me cry because even I would have a hard time trusting someone like me, and I trust everyone.
I wonder if ADHD can also contribute to difficulty with reality testing. Its very very easy to lose things with ADHD, so maybe little kids might get dissociation when they lose things through ADHD?
Is it normal to "pre-grieve" people who we assume may pass away or that we love very much bexause we can't rely on the idea that they'll always be there, and "pre-grieving" and storing the "already-grieved emotions" away makes it easier to deal with once it happens, it doesnt hurt as much and therefore we cannot care as much, leading to a way in which we can move on and experience a continuality within our lives without that "interruption"? Kind of like the concept of a pre-test. You know the test is coming, so you study and do the pre-test so it won't be as difficult later when the real thing happens. Even if people may look at you and wonder why you're not stressed about the big test, it's ok because it makes it easier for you?
Also, is it normal that something being taken without our knowledge and we suddenly come back to it missing (especially if that item is a core item in our everyday lives) we panic, and upon someone revealing (a parent, maybe) that that object is going to be taken away for a long time, we enter a state called a "floating period" in which we move throughout days almost on autopilot and have amnesia about the exact content of those days even years later? For example, I don't remember the year of 2022 at all (save for a few happy or traumatic memories) because it was a floating period year.
Well, for me objects are permanent because they are inanimate and my world view is naturalistic so no doubt of ghosts moving stuff around, but people are a different case. They are not always there. They do die, or they disappear in rare cases, or just stop caring about you and move on and leave you. So it seems like secure attachment is more like a positive illusion about people and the world? No wonder then many people get traumatized when they lose their loved-ones suddenly. They didn't expect it, until that moment they thought people were predictable.
Thank you So much for your videos! Out of curiosity… Would this happen Say with a parent, who kind of is Munchhausen by proxy And narcissistic Where they want to keep you a child, not want you two grow go so that way you are constantly dependent on them. A parent that plays dead to scare you, and twist your reality make sure You lose trust in yourself completely and extremely dependent on them because they convince you you are sick. . When I am Not around a person… My therapist for example… It’s extremely painful and there’s a lot of panic. So we have to almost pretend like she doesn’t exist for the whole week until I see her again. If I’m not around the person, I experience intense abandonment.
Perhaps this explains the powerful anxiety over family that is not with you (grown children for example) when I know it’s draining my energy, mental and physical resources? Or on the other hand I may just worry too much about Everything! 🙄
I don't understand this concept at all. Even after someone has been consistent for a long time they do something to cause devastation and I'm back at square one. At 44 it's just safer to be alone.
I can't find the words to express my gratitue for the videos you make. For a Dissociative Person like me, there is no way to put a value on the things you talk about in you videos
This explains so much, from why I always felt safer when I was (for example) at school (therefore away from parents), to why I get really upset and frustrated (sometimes to extreme levels) when I can’t find something. Thank you, I’m loving this series
Thanks for sharing!
Yes, that sense of panic when you can't find something can be so intense. I can't imagine feeling relaxed and knowing it will be just where you left it or will simply turn up.
In conjunction with object permanence, I remember being younger and having a toy of mine stolen by another girl and it really disgruntled me as a 4 year old. My grandmother even got me the same one and I still was still unsettled about it bc it was not the same physical stuffed animal. I’ve thought about it a fair amount of times in my life.
I am german and live in germany. I AM SO HAPPY that I found your channel. I am diagnozed with DID, but I still can not believe it. YOUR EXPLANATIONS HELP ME lot. And you speak a wonderful english, so I can understand you very well.
I hope, you read this, because I am SO THANKFUL
Ich freue mich sehr, dass dir diese Videos weiterhelfen!
Me too :) !!
Both videos were very helpful. We're a DID system and dealing with the havoc childhood trauma has caused. Developmental milestones may have been met but definitely skewed. Keep these videos coming, please. They are invaluable. They make me sad for my team but learning helps us heal.
This explains so many things in our daily life. The exhaustion we experience when trying to present «normal» and in control, while simultaneously trying to get everything to add up as different parts intervene, moves or changes things.
And the totally over exaggerated reactions if anything is taken og misplaced by family members…
Thank you so much for this series! These 2 parts alone have given me a greater underatanding of why we operate in the way that we do.
My roommate often asks me to get rid of stuff I am obviously no longer using (to avoid clutter) but it's always felt wrong to do so. Because that's not necessarily *my* stuff. It belongs to someone in my system and I don't want them returning to front only for them to realise that I threw away their favourite shoes or got rid of their journal.
You're very welcome!
I loved that you mentioned a patient having taught you the rubiks cube. It confirms the importance of the relationship; I doubt there's a Rubicks methodology in the literature. My therapist let me teach him about knots. That's knot a methodology either. But it has certainly helped tie together the relationship.
I would love to be taught knots!
"If you pardon the pun" 😂
👏👏👏👏👏
This was so wholesome, thanks from us
5:50
My entire childhood.. the entirety of it.. I'm alone and scared and no one would come. When you started talking about this it just.. wow.. I had no idea that's what it was supposed to feel like I had absolutely no idea.
Sorry to hear it’s been so difficult for you.
@thectadclinic thank you so much for saying so..~
It's been an entire life of manipulation and emotional neglect it's been so terribly lonely. Your videos are such a help for me to figure things out and get my life on track. They can make me a bit sad because of the topic but.. the information you provide is invaluable you're a favorite of mine 💜
ok yea, keep these coming for sure. weve literally had multiple meltdowns in the past two weeks about the EXACT same concept you talk about - "Everything Is Wrong," we call it - the rule (we've learned) is that at *least* one thing Goes Wrong, every single time, no matter what, without fail, regardless of time or context or scenario or confounding variables, etc. etc. ... i genuinely cannot express to you how deeply, REVOLTINGLY disturbing the events of our life have been these last few months, and how incessantly the point that everything will go wrong has been driven home - on EVERY. SINGLE. LEVEL of our existence. its genuinely eerie that these videos are this relevant to us. thanks for giving us more to talk about with our therapist tho lol. psychology has been a fascination of ours for years, but we've never really thought about object permanence from this angle before, so the clarity weve gained from learning what you discussed here *does* genuinely help 💖
I’m so glad. Hearing what you describe resonates with me at times as well, that sense that you’re just waiting for the ‘fail around the corner’. It is exhausting.
I feel this so hard. Ours is "No matter what, unless it was a direct order, we WILL fail in SOME way, even if it takes time." Eventually, you sorta end up feeling like, "why bother trying?" But you have to. There's never a chance to catch your breath. Always one thing after another. "SOME thing must always be wrong." 😅😑🤦
Same for me,
@@thectadclinic yea... feels like we're living life in a waiting room on hold for whatever the next disaster will be
@@Jack.0ctober yeah :/ idk how we've made it this far or how much longer we can last in this cycle. the fallout just gets worse after every subsequent disaster
I cried watching this video. I felt so seen and understood. Thank you.
You are so very welcome.
Is there a difference between object permanence and people permanence? I don't have any difficulty believing something will be where I left it, but heaven help my therapist if he breaks an established contact routine - he'll get a frantic email asking "Are you still there?" Having a person show up again feels more like magic, and I'm always asking, "Why is that person still here?"
That’s what I’m wondering, if the attachment for a ‘lost object’ can be distressing, where the ‘object’ is a person of significance.
For us when people are gone, they sometimes just stop existing, until something usually external reminds us "oh yeah that person exists"@thectadclinic
This is really thought provoking in the context that a few of our abusers - including one caretaker - we never knew from minute to minute what would set them off and cause the abusive behavior. This confusion and lack of reliability in their behavior was often more frightening than the abuse itself. Is this a cause of hypervigilence, in the sense that there's no "permanence" that we can count onso we're on guard all the time and expecting the worst just to be ready? Or am I way off?
What you’re describing is absolute unpredictability of the worst kind, and should never feature in ordinary development. Such experience really throws so much off kilter, it being so awful on so many levels.
I had the same experience. My mom was so unpredictable. Sometimes she was warm and caring. Other times she was irrationally demanding, screaming, and physically violent. And she could go from one to the other so quickly, with just the slightest provocation. Like, it could be as trivial as she set down her pencil and couldn't find where she put it. I was constantly anxious and hypervigilant around her.
At the same time, she was the only person who seemed to love me and be invested in my well-being. She was the only one who ever said nice things about me or that I didn't deserve all the shitty treatment I got from my dad and siblings (who were also abusive to me). She was unfortunately unaware of how shitty her own treatment of me was.
As far as I can recall, she's only ever apologized to me once, and it was after she had gotten especially violent with me for literally just standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, leaving me bruised for at least a week. She seemed to at least realize that that particular instance was wrong, that her behavior was excessively violent, and that I had done nothing wrong to warrant the violence (not that violence is ever warranted, but she believed in corporal punishment, so she usually felt okay with being violent if she thought I had done something wrong to "deserve" it). But the apology was so paltry and was mostly her trying to explain her own shitty behavior as if she were a victim of circumstance and couldn't help it. I was the straw that broke the camel's back, as she put it. As if that were sufficient to repair the damage that was done...
To make matters worse, I'm autistic, and I struggled a lot socially. I would get negative reactions from others and have no idea why. I couldn't predict them or understand what was going wrong. Between that and my mom, I've been hypervigilant for as long as I can remember. It never goes away. Even when the anxiety is manageable, it's always there in the background. I still jump at the slightest sounds and am constantly screening for danger in social situations. I always feel like people are unpredictable, and I hate it.
@@itisdevonly we're autistic as well and much of your experience is similar to ours. We're so sorry you had to go through this as well 😪💜
Now I understand...I'm really f....d up since I was a baby. This is sad. 😢😢😢 Thank God for the amazing therapist I have. 🙏✨
Really sad to hear this and hope you get to see you are probably fine underneath it all.
This made so much sense of everything. We've been researching DID since about a year before we ended up discovering our own system to support a loved one, but nothing we watched or read talked about object permanence and its broader application to life and one's perception of reality. We didn't realize what a major impact it had on us in all the little things throughout our childhood -- parents divorcing and remarrying, friends and family moving away, belongings disappearing, people we trusted becoming distant and unreliable... We thought we had our splits pinned down to two abusers, but this made us realize that it goes much deeper, stemming from so so so many things....
OK, 20 years in and out of therapy, this is the first time I've actually understood 'attachment'!
I didn't understand how therapists kept saying 'no parental attachment' when I was exceptionally attached to my mother - literally, daily caring for her.
Now I understand, it's not an attachment physically or emotionally, it's an attachment born of trust that they are 'permanent' and reliable - which, as an alcoholic, she couldn't be. And that was reinforced daily because I was caring for her and worrying about her and mitigating the consequences of her behaviour, instead of being able to trust that she (and by extension me and my siblings) would survive without my presence and intervention.
So my 'attachment' was to my big sister instead - because she was reliable and permanent (to the extent a 3-5year old can be!). And then she got sick and I was told I needed to look after her, which destroyed my sense of her permanence and reliability.
Yikes!
It also explains why school was so important, because teachers were the same, buildings were the same, the routine was consistent, the lessons were consistent. Learning spelling was fun - because it was always the same letters! Learning math was fun because the answers didn't change depending on the weather or the mood of the adult! Object permanence.
This is fascinating, as always!! Knowing you are able to create so much certainty + predictability makes me feel really bad for us autistic folks who also are dissociative. Even outside of OSDD/DID, many of us need access to dissociation to survive how overstimulating the world is for us. But it’s hard to control. Then due to the dissociation, and co-occurring trauma histories, we lose access to the predictability and certainty you have.
I do see the ADHD layer too. I learned the correct term for object permanence past the early developmental stage you described here is object constancy. So for those of us who deal with that, it’s really stressful too.
Today my dad took me to a store bc I’m working on our agoraphobia. I notice I only do better when I have more dissociation access. So I did great at the store then I came out and said “why is mom’s car here?” And he was laughing (we laugh to relate, my dad is AuDHD too). We parked next to a truck that looks like my dad’s and I got confused, because I recognized my mom’s license plate but my eyes didn’t even take in the other license plate nor remember my dad’s in the moment… nor what car we took to the place. Not even the conversation we had prior to walking into the store where apparently I asked my dad to park next to the truck that looked like his.
It’s.. a lot. I deny my reality with being on the OSDD/DID spectrum because my parents are incredible and provided a good life for me, and still do. I never felt safe at school, with extended family, or out in the world. I always needed my parents help for safety and support. And somehow despite having access to developmental milestones and great parents, I still ended up with all of this complex trauma because the outside world didn’t provide the predictability, certainty, safety, and trust that my parents did.
I feel you,. As DID-systems we need great power, thats why we are able to connect on a deeper level with natural world and powers. (Autism)
My system need animals to survive with their adustability they have in their survivalinstincts. Also the energy trees have, (and I felt) in dangerous times.
Mother Earth is helping us,
talk to yourself in the best way you can, would be my advice.
My parents, brother and sister have autism and didsystems too, but the outside world and the people i met was far more dangerous! Nature and animals helped me survive.
Inside the farmhouse I watched Wald Disney cartoons, and read Wald Disney books. Our dog looked after me, when my brother and sister went to school.
Mike- this video is a masterpiece. Every sentence in this is world changing for me! Please make this a regular series. It gives me life! 💙
I lose things a lot (despite my objects having set places they should live in). I've misplaced really important documents before and I feel like I can't even trust myself when I put something down. I thought I'd get used to losing things but every time it happens it's always extremely upsetting.
Thanks for the video, as always.
I do exactly the same!
And that lack of trust in yourself can really chip away at confidence and stability.
Me too!
Growing up, i was the oldest of 7 kids. Im not sure or specifically cannot remember the fine details on why i turned out plural and my siblings didnt. But! So many other children running around getting into things made it really difficult to protect anything i cared about. Removing toys that caused screaming was a common parenting tactic.
This explains why i put stuff i care about so, so high up in the house, and why the only objects i really get attached to are phones, game consoles, and computers. Those were protected items, no one was allowed to run off with them. They were always there, more commonly than any other job or person that i interacted with, and they contained far more variety and growth material for me than anything else.
I think thats a reason why i get angry sometimes when i cant find chargers or power cords. Stuff is being taken from me, even though no one is being malicious.
WOW. I have never experienced that complete certainty. I didn't even know that was something that some people just, expect, or live with every day. My life has functioned around the idea that things WON'T be there, there is no security, and in likely every interaction/perception I have, there is always something I am missing. This was super informative... thank you.
I become "blind" for objects sometimes, and search a lot until the things are where they should be, I just couldn't see them. But that is perhaps an all together different story?
I have worked with people who just cannot ‘see’ what is there. We called it dissociative blindness. I wonder if you experience similar?
This is a common issue for me as well. It's like I got so used to things missing and being moved by "myself" and others, that I just started to learn that things just disappear or move. I can't trust that anything will be where I last left or saw it. It could just be gone forever as well.
I've stared at things I've been looking for, people can point at the thing and describe where it is, and I still can't see it! If they pick it up it's like it magically appears in their hand! It's quite distressing and annoying, usually I just close my eyes and use my hands to feel what's around if I can't find something with my eyes.
@@thectadclinic yes that sounds just like it. But I also have amnesia..so I search a lot for things!
@@tiredko-hi- I've also experienced (and got used to) that...
Same, happened to me the other day, had a dollar in my hand started getting nervous then I blanked out for a second and it was gone. Couldnt find it anywhere, checked my pockets, floor and everything, it was gone.
Wow! At 9 minute 50 seconds, you just explained why my mom, who has borderline personality disorder, would scream at me when I was a child and tell me that I put something somewhere but I didn't do it! Or she would become unglued if I moved something or didn't put it back the right way. I never, ever, related this back to whole object permanence.
This is a really stunning example of how it can go wrong in my mom. In me it looks a little different, and I'm also healing on an integrative path. It's really a paradox that through a healing path you can discover more about the parent that wounded you than perhaps you were ready for, and then understand this was the way/how they injured you too. 😢
Wooh, that hit home big time. Thank you Dr Mike for that clear, understandable and compassionate video.
Hi,
Good video! I asked this question a while ago, but I don't know if this topic will be in a video. I would really like that.
I have OSDD, and was once misdiagnosed with psychotic disorder NOS, many years ago. Can you make a video about the difference between psychotic voices and 'voices' of parts in DID/OSDD? Because I often read that people with DID/OSDD first get the wrong diagnoses. With all the consequences, and especially lost time. For me about 12 years!
Thank you
Something I have been thinking about, will look into it again!
This would be amazing to see in this channel
Also, agree. Would bee greatly interested in hearing more on this.
That's a good question. I was partially aware of being a system when I was younger, but I was reluctant to tell anyone about "the voices in my head" because I didn't want it to be mistaken for psychosis. I knew the voices were parts of me, but they felt separate from me at the same time. I wish I'd known more about dissociative disorders back then. I probably could have self-diagnosed my OSDD a long time ago if I'd had access to the relevant information.
Further, where i am in my healing, i have no idea if that concepts your talking about will help, but the contrast in both videos has been illuminating and exciting. Thanks doc. My therapist says ive got way better an education about my condition than most patients who find their way to her, and that its a good education. Thanks. Ill appreciate your videos if you keep making them
As I was listening to this, it made me realize that during all those times, when I "lost" an item, either moved or sitting in front of me, that there was possibly that other alternative states were showing up without me realizing it. It often happens so fast, that I barely recognize it, and often leads me to think I am just going insane. But this helps, place more perceptive on it.
Now I understand better about experiences because of developing cocosciousness at the beginning of dissociation. I regularly feel or even ask, Did I dream this took place or was it actually reality?
It seems to be connected to Object Permanence concepts. I appreciate learning this. Thank you, Dr. Mike.
This has been so incredibly informative! It explains the entire reason for our use of the ‘attachment cry’; something we know we do but not the WHY.. incredible stuff :3
Might I suggest on how to get through to parts stuck in trauma time?? No matter what we do, we cannot seem to self regulate our little trauma holder, and it is not practical nor healthy to rely on others to try and regulate him.. and it never works for long, unless he is close to the figures he is attached to. He has zero object permanence.
Ah, I think you have seen such a video has already been done!
@@thectadclinic What video is that? I don't think I've seen it, but I would like to, as that is something I also struggle with.
@@itisdevonly There's an older video on parts 'stuck in time'
@@thectadclinic indeed we did, but I forget so we will rewatch! Thank you again for your videos, (and your comments which remind us) they are BEYOND helpful :3
I'm glad I found this video.
I stopped dissociation once and felt alive for the very first time. I want to feel that again
ME TOO ! Then I had a panic attack and dissociated again, I went from totally freaking out because I felt real fear when thinking about death, to nothing at all in a split second !
@Bullebizzare oh god, I'm sorry to hear that!
Me going back into it was simply bc of pure trauma. :/
It's so terrible when it stops but then happens again and it's totally out of your control
Transcranial stimulation and Deep Brain Reorienting are 2 treatments that have the ability to alter perception. Try them.
Like part one, this video resonated very strongly with me. I had no stability or safety in my familial relationships in my early childhood. I had a disorganized attachment to both my parents. Both were abusive, both were neglectful, and both occasionally provided for some of my needs (my dad the practical, my mom the emotional). It made for such a complicated attachment situation, because I needed to both move towards them and away from them. I felt afraid without them, but also afraid with them. Making things even more chaotic, with my dad, I was less afraid of physical abuse (his was predictable and avoidable if I followed his rules) and my basic physical needs were taken care of (food, clothing, shelter, etc.), but I was much more emotionally neglected, manipulated, and gaslit. With my mom I was somewhat less emotionally neglected (she actually loved me, tried to support my emotional needs and development, and occasionally had moments of warmth), but with her I was much more heavily abused physically and psychologically (she was violent and unpredictable with a short fuse, also very controlling and heavy-handed with shame). She also lived in poverty, so there was a lot more physical deprivation when with her (although I still always had food and shelter, just not a comfortable environment like I had with my dad, more or less). I grew up feeling like an orphan---superficially supported, but with no one I could truly count on to keep me safe or meet my needs.
I can almost never fully attach to anyone or anything, because the devastation I would feel at the loss would be unmanageable. I'll only take the risk if someone proves to me, over and over again over a long period of time, that they can be relied upon in the ways that I need. Because to finally get what you need and then lose it again suddenly is heartbreaking. I felt like anything good I got when growing up was ripped away from me over and over again, until I finally disconnected from my emotions so that I could stop being so vulnerable to that pain. Part of me shut down, became inaccessible, and I no longer felt constant unbearable pain. But I also could not get emotionally attached to anything. Most things just don't affect me emotionally... or more like, I'm disconnected from how things affect me emotionally and struggle to recognize and feel my own feelings.
I'm actually beginning to understand this subject much better, now. Nice work. Thank you
I have a baby part that is lying in a crib. Mother is not present, in another room possibly. The baby is crying out for our mother but mother doesn't come. The baby is wondering if mother can hear or maybe she' not there at all. The baby wonders if the mother is hearing their cries and if she just doesn't care about them. The baby feels uncared for and feels sad. This would mean the baby does have the object permanence then. But feels abandoned. Thank you for this video ❤
my mom has always hid and moved the objects, clothes, anything around the house. I would never find something where I've left it, which was causing me a lot of anger and a sense of helplessness. I wonder now why was she doing that...control? her own trauma? what? thank you for this video, I have never thought that hiding objects could have had an impact of any kind
People have always wondered why we had massive reactions to losing an item. It definitely causes an immense amount of stress and feels like it's completely gone, never knew that it was because of object permanence not being taught properly in us. Your channel is very helpful, I may send these to our therapist to talk over
No infant is taught object permanence. Piaget would tell you that himself. It is a cognitive, not emotional, concept that emerges from brain development in all babies unless they are brain damaged. It can be lost due to brain disease or damage. But it is not taught. Ever. People being seen as trusted sources of security even when they cannot be present? THAT is a learned concept. That is not object permanence.
We'll that was abrupt. Going to need to come back to this one. As soon as you mentioned being relieved when caregivers left we immediately got a headache and started feeling floaty and disconnected.
First, Thank you for this new series. I've often asked the Spouse what it is like to be a singleton? someone who doesn't have DID. The second is a question. If I understand this correctly, you don't worry nor forget about things that you "don't see"? I find that strange and amazing. I'm looking forward to learning more about what life is like for non-DID/OSDD individuals in general.
I'm not a system, nor do I have any dissociative symptoms, I just follow this channel because I know someone who does deal with dissociation. I thought I might try to answer your question though just so that you got an answer.
I do not worry or forget objects that I can no longer see. I live with my husband but I usually have a pretty good idea of where things in my house are. I have a pretty good idea of what's in my fridge/cupboards and I can often imagine where I last put something when it seems to be lost. I never really get the sense that things have spontaneously moved. Objects are where I expect them to be, or they are not there because my husband has put them somewhere else. Haha.
@ thank you for answering. It helped. I find it amazing that there are people who can do that. For us it’s all we’ve ever known so any other way of living and thinking can sometimes boggle my mind. lol yeah, spouses are good at that. So are kids no matter their age.
@@lainey9092that’s more or less it! It just isn’t something I need to devote any time or thought to, unless something odd has happened (like a cat knocked something off from where it should be…)
Was waiting for this one.
Ok - I don’t have trouble with objects not being where I left them. I seem to have a great memory for that. But, is that because I have gotten so good at keeping things in the exact same place? Also, my distress level when things are not in the right spot is through the roof.
And where I check more boxes of what you’ve said is more in the abstract? The sense of who a person is to me and me to them, vanishes when the person is not there in front of me. Even someone I’ve known for 10 years. It’s far worse with people I know well.
Am I too much picking apart details? Sure that if I don’t fit everything you say I’m lying?
I wish someone could scan my head and tell me for sure if something is wrong or not. I am so sick of my head.
Thank you for another video.
Can problems with object permanence get better? Dissociative or not?
This was incredibly helpful, thank you so much!
I often wonder why life is so exhausting, even if nothing special happens. I did not think of this, though it’s completely logical and understandable.
Glad it was helpful!
Omg. So this is why I get so upset when my spouse moves my stuff (which is very very infrequent and only for a reason).... And this is why when growing up, school was always better than home. Might even explain issues with driving places. (the navigation part, not the driving part)
I definitely appreciate the developmental lens you're applying here.
These are my favorite! And Ive watched all videos multiple times. Id like to know more about how an “associated” person experiences the natural fluctuations of the self
But are you certain when you look at the cube that it really is exactly as you left it? Like you can tell if someone came and made one turn on the cube?
The thing is, I don’t need to look at it to check, I would instinctively know it is the same, and then don’t give it a moment’s thought.
@thectadclinic this blows my mind. I have to really focus hard on getting into a routine and making sure I put things in their designated place every day so I don't lose them (Like my car keys, lunch bag, meds etc). Eventually it becomes second nature, but if I'm not paying attention, I'll misplace sometime important and then panic bc I can't find it (like my phone).
I can't imagine always knowing where I've set things without needing fail safe's in place to prevent losing stuff!
@@brittanywilcox7377 I have to change place for the shampoo to remember wheater or not i washed my hair...
@emmalyckajacobsson590 that's clever!!! I have a specific routine I do in the shower so I don't forget to wash anything. It usually works... Usually 😅🤣
@@thectadclinicomg really?
I am a mother of 3 and before I even knew I was dissociative I used to take away things from my kids when they misbehaved and then couldn’t ever find it when I went to give it back. My kids were smart l, so I had to hide things well, lol. It drove me and my kids nuts! I now know why, but haven’t shared this as my kids are older now.
I guess that’s why I get so stressed out when I can’t find something. Once an item is missing I never know if it still exists or if I’d gotten rid of it.
I think you may have just helped me solve a long-term mystery regarding why it's so deeply upsetting to me when objects that "I just had in my hand" disappear out of sight. I don't have DID, but dissociation was a significant factor in adolescence, young adulthood. Having things "disappear" triggers that feeling of unreality. Unreliability. Unease.
This explains a lot.
I have a question about de difference between the degrees alters experience the world and themselves. Why are some alters sensitive and some not.
Why can some alters filter the environment and focus on one thing and some alters have no filters, to the degree they cannot exist in this world? And everything between.
How can alters learn to filter?
Or is that just the way it is?
I cannot even imagine what it feels to be that associated. 😮 It sounds like a dream!
In comparison, I think it is, but life still is difficult, just in different ways.
@ I understand, I didn’t mean to invalidate other people’s life experiences by my reaction.
I constantly forget where I put items (such as a well-liked pen) and become very upset. My head-mates help me to calm down but telling me where THEY may have put it and we go searching. They help me fill in the time gaps and to calm down
I have executive dysfuntion issues from autism and ADHD and I get inordinately wound up when I lose things. I was thinking this was a shame thing but the video suggests something more. Is there a relationship between disorganised attachment and general disorganisation?
5:19 I can't continue watching for some reason, hope to come back to it an other time.
This being insecure wether people or things are coming back or present. Can it manifest like a need of secure borders: like this is mine, do not take it? And can it manifest in being insecure about what I have done vs not done. An example: ask me once:have you done this, I will know the answer, but if the question is repeated I',ll become more and more insecure, not knowing the answer.
this explains every issue we’ve had in our life… this was incredibly eyeopening and cathartic
thank you so much, dr mike
You’re welcome!
Thank You for Doing this I was able Click why one of My Parts🧡 have so much anxiety with this.
Okay, so after watching now... I have a question/comment?
This may be a bit jumbled and difficult to follow, so I apologize for that. It’s either that or I don’t say anything hehe… 😅
Idk if you've seen my previous comment, but I have DID. These videos are incredibly helpful for me. Just one thing though? You do a great job of explaining what would've happened to a person/infant at the developmental milestone age (in this case I think you said 4-6 months?); what experiences they would've had with their parents, etc. in order for them to have developed “normally.” One thing that would make these videos feel complete for me would be if you did the same with a dissociative person.
I know the idea of these videos is what it's like to NOT be dissociative, but in doing so, you're basically helping us dissociatives (well, me at least) understand a bit where things in our past may have gone wrong. For me at least, that is EXACTLY the kind of thing I need to know in order to take more steps forward. What happened that wasn’t supposed to? Okay, let’s do some trauma processing on that. What didn’t happen that should have? Do I have any parts who feel like they need to experience that in order to improve our current symptoms? Then let’s do some internal work with it. Etc.
I suppose it would make sense for one to assume the answers would just be the opposite of whatever you explain for the non-dissociative infant experiences, but… idk, it just doesn’t seem that way? Not based on what you did explain from the point of view of a dissociative individual who is older and already struggling with the results of not having those experiences as an infant (not forming secure attachment, poor grasp of object permanence, etc.). For example, you said everyone learns object permanence and I guess I don’t lack it completely, but it’s BARELY there and it manifests itself in many unfortunate ways throughout different aspects of my life. Yes, it makes sense that I’d struggle with that considering the DID and different parts moving things around, throwing them away and all that, but what happened when we were an infant trying to learn object permanence that caused it to fail and us to end up so dissociative in the first place? This is just one example I’m using because it’s the easiest one to work with, I’m not specifically stuck on object permanence.
Am I overthinking all of this? Lol. Is it really just the opposite of whatever the “normal” experiences would be for a non-dissociative person? 😂
I think the question you are posing is more what would be worked out in therapy. To gain a full understanding of the unique qualities of a family, the attachments, relationships, ways of responding/not responding etc.
Wish I could write something but after all this is an open space ❤
Oooh this is a brilliant video
Thank you!
here we go again
Thank you so much for this.
You are so welcome!
This might be a very obvious question, but I’ve struggled with dissociation for as long as I can remember. However, I don’t have very much memory of trauma… I can admit my family is dysfunctional, but the lack of memory of anything “significant” has always been an insecurity for me when seeking help. Especially the fear that I’ll be invalidated or not believed. Is dissociation always a result of trauma? Are there other causes?
I love this channel. It’s such an important resource! Thank you for the work you do
Can you do a a video about dissociative fugue with travel (dissociative fugue disorder) a subtype of DA and how it differs from DID fugues. I am a DFD patient. Pls & thank you.
Good idea!
@thectadclinic Awesome!! There is like next to zero videos on the subject. And the rare few are movie tropes or docs on cases like Hannah Upp but NO real explanations. This would mean a lot to me.
Wait. This is the same thing as “boundaries”. I get destroyed if my wife moves my dresser and piles the clothes on the bed. If I am not there.
I feel violated. I don’t care if you look through it, and put it back. Don’t move it! That can kill trust. Thank you. Now I understand why a little better.
How to deal with those situations would be a great video. From a patient point of view. Asking for a friend!
This was very interesting,could you possibly discuss Complex DID please?Thank you
What do you mean by that? All DID is complex, it’s built in. I never saw ‘simple DID’ yet!
@ We meant polyfragmented DID.Sorry,no offence intended.Thank you
@ totally fine, just wanted to clarify!
Yeah, it's always a thing that *I* buy chocolate. It's *mine* . And then _someone_ eats it and when I go for the chocolate, it isn't there.
And then sometimes I get smartass comments of "The body is the same, doesn't matter who ate it!" IT DOES!! IT WAS _MINE_ !!!
But this was back then when there still was an alter that was out almost as often as I was. ..and I still at times miss her :' )
Fantastic video and topic! It explains so much about our life.
Glad you enjoyed it!
The part about reality testing really really hit us wow
Thanks so much for this video. What might disrupt the conceptualisation of cause and effect in development? As people, we do stuff all day every day that has clear causes and effects, but when I try to think of this mentally, there is a disconnect. Is this a symptom of dissociation or a developmental disruption? I find it an unsettling feeling and very hard to describe.
Hello and thank you for your videos! I have a few questions that have lingered in my brain for a few years now and I couldn’t find a scientific answer. The answers would be very dearly to me since i directly dealing with those conditions and aside from that I am just also extremely curious what happens to early childhood development when there a parameter changed, that’s bot necessarily trauma but might become one? :
What about adhd people who become blind for objects as soon as they’ve seen it in a certain place a few times? How does that impact dissociation? Since objects just disappear into the chaos surrounding. What does it mean regarding relationships, too?
And a question regarding the previous video of this series: how does this developmental step evolve in blind and visually impaired people, since they obviously will not have the social smile? Is there any science around this?
Also: how does depersonalization play into it all?
Thank you very much in case you take time to answer one or two or all questions of mine. (Got some more, just in case)
VIDEO IDEA: I'd love to see how dissociation presents differently if someone is an internalizer or an externalizer. My mother was an externalizer, she has borderline. I grew up the scapegoat and so I'm an internalizer.
Whole object relations misfires look very different on each population. I can compare how my mom handles her dissociative problems, and see that I came about approaching the world in a completely different way with the same injury.
@realigninglife . Yes ! Would also appreciate that exploration.
You would love Bethany Brand/Lowenstein piece on dissociation. Basically, she quotes Anderson that borderlines alter their external reality to save their sense of cohesion (you are either "all bad" to them, or "all good) and people with DID alter their internal reality( multiple self-states) to retain a sense of external connection to the world and others. It is almost poetic in its simplicity.
@@Cathy-e1s thank you! Her name has never come up for me before, I appreciate it.
So...does this illustrate abandonment issues and enmeshment disorders?
That would all come under the umbrella of insecure attachment, so yes, I think it would.
Could someone please help direct me to a video that explains how I can help (or more specifically) how I can show someone I care for who I have strong suspicions of being DID, that I genuinely care about them? I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be asking help with? Ummm oh I guess I want to be able to recognise some clear-ish signs (other than the ones I’ve experienced with them over the years) that might show me they’re either in denial or they know but they just don’t trust me. And if that’s the case, what might I be doing wrong to make them feel that way? Please 🙏
I think I should mention that I have adhd which is probably not the best personality type for someone with genuine and very serious trust issues because I can be spasmodic, unreliable because I’m often late, and I’m disorganised and forgetful and oh crap, just writing these things down is making me cry because even I would have a hard time trusting someone like me, and I trust everyone.
I wonder if ADHD can also contribute to difficulty with reality testing. Its very very easy to lose things with ADHD, so maybe little kids might get dissociation when they lose things through ADHD?
as in, I both dissociate a lot and have ADHD, so I wonder if they fed off each other!
There’s quite a controversy about the possible link between object permanence and ADHD!
@@thectadclinic interesting! thank you :3
Is it normal to "pre-grieve" people who we assume may pass away or that we love very much bexause we can't rely on the idea that they'll always be there, and "pre-grieving" and storing the "already-grieved emotions" away makes it easier to deal with once it happens, it doesnt hurt as much and therefore we cannot care as much, leading to a way in which we can move on and experience a continuality within our lives without that "interruption"?
Kind of like the concept of a pre-test. You know the test is coming, so you study and do the pre-test so it won't be as difficult later when the real thing happens. Even if people may look at you and wonder why you're not stressed about the big test, it's ok because it makes it easier for you?
Also, is it normal that something being taken without our knowledge and we suddenly come back to it missing (especially if that item is a core item in our everyday lives) we panic, and upon someone revealing (a parent, maybe) that that object is going to be taken away for a long time, we enter a state called a "floating period" in which we move throughout days almost on autopilot and have amnesia about the exact content of those days even years later? For example, I don't remember the year of 2022 at all (save for a few happy or traumatic memories) because it was a floating period year.
Well, for me objects are permanent because they are inanimate and my world view is naturalistic so no doubt of ghosts moving stuff around, but people are a different case. They are not always there. They do die, or they disappear in rare cases, or just stop caring about you and move on and leave you. So it seems like secure attachment is more like a positive illusion about people and the world? No wonder then many people get traumatized when they lose their loved-ones suddenly. They didn't expect it, until that moment they thought people were predictable.
Thank you So much for your videos! Out of curiosity… Would this happen Say with a parent, who kind of is Munchhausen by proxy And narcissistic Where they want to keep you a child, not want you two grow go so that way you are constantly dependent on them. A parent that plays dead to scare you, and twist your reality make sure You lose trust in yourself completely and extremely dependent on them because they convince you you are sick. .
When I am Not around a person… My therapist for example… It’s extremely painful and there’s a lot of panic. So we have to almost pretend like she doesn’t exist for the whole week until I see her again. If I’m not around the person, I experience intense abandonment.
Perhaps this explains the powerful anxiety over family that is not with you (grown children for example) when I know it’s draining my energy, mental and physical resources? Or on the other hand I may just worry too much about Everything! 🙄
I clicked this so fast 😅
hello dr loyd! i was wondering if you have your email open to questions or suggestions for this channel
We do, through the enquiries email, but we get a lot, so please understand if the idea isn’t done!
I leared object permanence when I eraneed how to think up creative hiding places for objects. I learned object permanence, but not trust.
I don't understand this concept at all. Even after someone has been consistent for a long time they do something to cause devastation and I'm back at square one. At 44 it's just safer to be alone.
It sounds like such a fragile security in a person, where trust (or semblance of it) is hard won and easily lost. Really tough to live with.
time to get a tattoo of a rubiks cube ig 😂💖
It would at least be colourful!
So how do you heal the dysfunctional object permanence besides therapy.
It’s the impact, the OP is in there, but it’s trusting it. That’s tough.
@@thectadclinic True.
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Is it "normal" that a traumatized person, since childhood, believes that someone who hasn't given any news since more than a week is probably dead ?
It doesn’t sound like that is ‘normal’ under any circumstances, unless maybe a person has been raised with continual threats of others dying etc.
@@thectadclinic Crap... ;_; Thank you for your answer and your precious videos
I can't find the words to express my gratitue for the videos you make. For a Dissociative Person like me, there is no way to put a value on the things you talk about in you videos