Aero aside, there will still be aero and climbing builds of same all-round model with different wheels and gear ratios. And if reduction in models will equate to less number of frames per rider, it will become an extra challenge to the mechanics, when and how exactly to service these.
I think for an almost entirely flat stage/race or an almost entirely mountainous one, then the all-rounder would probably be a disadvantage for pro riders when compared to a dedicated aero or lightweight bike (respectively). But for a route that mixes flat and hilly sections, then I think the difference would be hard to call. And, as you point out, I think an all-rounder probably makes more sense for most recreational riders.
I have a new Tarmac SL8 with a few lighter components and it weighs 6.2kg... With pedals and bottle cage it is still under the UCI limit. Then why should you have to get a "real" climbing bike?
I build bikes as a hobby but have run out of curiosity. I have a BMC SLO and Campy. But I find my last steel Basso Loto with 10 speed Dura Ace a preferable bike. My Ridley with Di2 is not a particularly good bike because it is difficult to tell the up lever from the down. My steel Tommasini Fire and Fondriest Status don't seem very fast and the Trek Alpha 1.5 is a nice bike but a little stiff. If I were to have just a winter and summer bike it would be the BMC for winter and Basso Loto for summer.
If you are talking about Tarmac SL8 specifically, Tour Magazine testing indicated that it is up there with the fastest aero bikes, and weight wise, it is already very close to the UCI limit.
"a lot of bikes are starting to look the same" Hi, I'm here from 1987 when I started racing bikes. If you removed the jewel toned paint, all lugged steel frames of the 70s-80s era looked pretty much identical. It wasn't until things like tig welding, aero hoods, aero designs (mainly reserved for TT bikes) dual control, clipless pedals and shaped tubing started coming onto the market that bikes started really differentiating. Colnago has always been known for their crazy paint schemes because for decades underneath the paint, they were just more rounded tube double diamond frames same as the last six decades.
This is a very good point about how many lugged steel frames looked similar in the 70s and 80s, we thankfully have a way greater variety of choice in bikes today but I still love my vintage steel frames 👍
I've raced, maintained (for myself and others) and ridden lugged / vintage bikes and old / obsolete systems for enough years and miles that when the options for lightweight well tuned carbon disc road frames with hydro brakes and AXS wireless shifting became available, I adopted immediately and never looked back. I never want to deal with inner tubes, cable stretch, brake fade on long steep descents (I live in Colorado) or narrow high pressure tires again. I put 30mm Strada tubeless on my Aethos and never looked back. To be fair I also was one of the first in my peer group to adopt clipless pedals (after going OTB on toeclips and almost permanently destroying a knee), dual control shifters, road disc, road tubeless, 1x for cyclocross and criterium racing (there is no better system than AXS 1x for CX/gravel racing and flat road racing and you will never convince me otherwise). I've been a coach, shop wrench, rider and racer for too long and seen too much that I don't want to compromise. It's way cool that other people love their Eroica bikes but having ridden that tech enough I am good with never using it again :)
Good vid. When I want to roll around town catching stringfoot pigeons for rescue I ride my sl8 sworks. When I want every second to matter I ride one of my old rim brake race bikes.
I wish they would just require that teams are allowed 2 bikes only - a tt and a regular bike. This would force the bike manufacturers to produce one flagship bike and there would be economies of scale there that, in theory, would improve prices...
The discussion about lightweight and aero bikes has solidified my decision to purchase a lightweight all-around bike for my next purchase. The 6 seconds saved over 10 miles isn't a factor to my endurance riding and the events I participate in. Thanks for the great information.
Forget the bars for $1300, how about GCN "bundle kit" costing $440? Why is it so expansive? Just went to the GCN web site and the bundle kit is gone, however, the question still applies. On GCN web GCN x AGU Aero Jersey cost $180, on AGU web they range from 40 euro to 100 euro which is around $108. So, is GCN logo cost $80? Same trend can also be found on bib shorts. Just want to know how GCN came to this pricing.... Any comments from GCN will be apricated.
I went back and forth on this for quite a while. Told myself I didn't "need" a designated climbing bike. Insisted a less expensive all around bike, which is what I had, would be fine. Eventually, listened to my gut, got the lightweight hill climbing beast that is the R5 and have never been happier. Oh I'm not winning le Tour on it, but descending is pure joy
It’s fair to say top brands have already achieved that optimum of all rounder at low weight (7kg ish), tarmac sl8, Supersix evo, even the Ultimate is more of an all rounder these days. Plenty of tyre clearance in all these as well
I have an all out aero race bike, and its super fun, but honestly, most of the time i reach for my gravel bike with slick*ish tires on it. Because its comfortable
It would be great if Bike Vault submissions could be shared/linked. These are submissions this week that would totally merit zooming and/or longer looks.
Geometries of aero bikes and lightweight or "all-rounder" bikes are often different. For me the most impactful saving you can make to be faster, is to optimise your position, both from an aero perspective (head, shoulders, arms) and comfort. No point in being aero if you can't sustain it.
The other thing to consider is how a usually stiffer aero bike can be less comfortable and potentially make the rider feel more fatigue. I'm not sure if this has been empirically tested, but it's certainly a claim that I think Specialized have made about the SL8. Compliance = freshness?
Around 12:00 mark they referenced geometry and setting up the bike. Road Bike Channel's Dream Build series of videos has several with the Jumbo Visma mechanics assembling bikes for Jonas, Wout, Primoz, and Marianne Vos. When their mechanics are setting the saddle and lever positions, it shows them using a database of measurements for each rider and measuring implements to get the bikes perfectly set up for the rider it's being built for. I imagine most pro teams have similar tools that they use to keep a bike dialed in on the optimal measurements for each rider.
But how much difference does the aero bike make when the rider spends 90% or more of the stage in the peloton anyway? And I would also agree with other comments here around bike geometry and being more comfortable with a certain setup can make a huge difference also.
There are still some benefit to aero even in group. It is greatly reduced, but it is still there. In a race, that little saving can help save a little for later. Plus, if they are going to win, they are going to spend time in the wind. Even the domestiques when they do their pulls.
@@DaveCM Thought: If a sprinter only spends 20-30 seconds in the wind in the final meters of the stage, are they better off with a lighter bike that has saved them energy over the climbs through the whole stage than having a slightly faster bike that they’ve lugged up all the hills?
I agree with all your math at a high level, but if you consider cervelo and a stage that is mostly flat with a big climb at the end, the cervelo team will start on a s5 and need to switch to a R5, a really good bike switch time is ~15 seconds. That eats up the gains made from the aero benefits, so if they could just ride one good all around bike, it would be pretty much the same outcome. Also, aero advantages disappear when riding in a group because there is much less air resistance when drafting so aero bikes really only make sense on a flat stage in a break away when you're leading the train which is 1) not a large % of a group ride/race in time and 2) is not something most riders are doing even in a race. The aero bike doesn't even make sense for most consumers because they don't go fast enough to get the 16 seconds of gains in 40 km at 45kph avg. IMO, go lightweight, go used and have fun working on your fitness.
I 100% agree with all of this. But now lightweight bikes have a decent about of aero which as someone who rides 95% solo, I’m in the wind and appreciate. But for the pros, i don’t really see that an SL8 is a disadvantage to the Cervelos, Scotts or Canyons
The way I see it is that you can compare the numbers of weight verses aero and time saved at a given power output etc, but that assumes all things are equal with no variables. What difference does aero actually make when you are not on the front?
The new GCN kit is a bit expensive, but I don't think it is exceptionally expensive compared to a lot of premium kit. It is more than I'm willing to pay, but it doesn't seem too out of line.
I think there is more modeling for Ollie to do. He already asked the right questions that are „How much faster can the Alpecin leadout train go on the pure aero bike“ and „is it really worth for them to take the Ultimate with them for the mountain in terms of saved kJ“.
I just think that someone like Specialized saying "1-bike to rule them all" is such a bad marketing move. I worked at some nice high-end shops and my well-off riders wanted an all out Aero bike and a secondary bike (endurance or super light). Having more categories can seem confusing to beginners but for the hardcore dorks, they want to be able to FEEL the difference and pick a bike based on how they feel or what they're up to on the road that day. So many of my customer gave me the same feedback, "bring back the venge". They've been asking for it since it went away. I think the SL8 is probably one of the best bikes I've ever ridden. I still picked the Aethos because I don't race, and wanted something light and simple to work on/service from home. I am no pro, but I'd love to have options. I can't imagine being a pro and having 1 tool to tackle every challenge during race season.
It's nice to see history repeating itself in some ways. Going back +30 years, the pro bikes appeared even more similar than they do today with lugged steel frames and big brands put more effort into their paint finishes.
I think the main issue with this theory is based on 45kph which is good for racing but when most club cyclist ride at 30kph the advantages are less, i would like to see you do a video for the average cyclist. My theory is an average cyclist would gain more from a light sportive bike and less from the "aero is everything" fashion. Take some 3-5k bikes and ride them at 30kph. This was more significant 5 years ago but now the lines are blured so i would be interested to see if the latest bikes have bridged the gaps of pros and cons.
We tested the aero bike vs climbing bike a while ago 👉 ruclips.net/video/5hViY4O2gYQ/видео.html - We're far from pro these days so this might help shed some light on the topic, we would love to do more content around this subject so watch this space 👀
That 45 kph is freestream speed. Most club cyclists ride in the real world with wind, right? Weight has FAR less impact for the average club rider than aero. I still can't decipher statistically significantly in my Strava the actual saving between my 15 pound bike and my 18 pound bike on rolling terrain
The savings of a few watts isn't just about seconds, it's about effort. Winning by the width of a tire isn't about how fast the rider moves at a given power. That doesn't account for real world race craft. It's relevant to a TT, but not a road race. Where the watts matter is in how much energy the rider has spent to get to that finish and how fresh they at that point.
Tour teams should be limited to two bikes, one for TT and one for all other stages. Wheel changes for flat and lumpy stages, sure but this aero+lightweight+TT stuff, not a fan. If riders are tested over changing roads and conditions, then so should their bike. Bike manufacturers in collaboration with their teams should define their performance priorities in the design of the one bike.
Wouldn't those wattages only apply when you're in the wind? Since most pros spend the race in someone's wheel, the difference for most riders will be really small.
seems to me that aero is important when you are on a solo break, or at the front of the peleton. But presumably much less important when you are out of the wind in the middle of the peleton, in the draft.
Fun fact, thanks to the wording of the CTT Road bike classifications rules, the POC and Kask new helmets are not going to be allowed in Road Bike TTs. The rules dictate ears must be uncovered and visors are not allowed.
Is it an ear covered though? I am interested, because in draft legal triathlon the rule is no ears covered. The kask certainly doesn’t impair your hearing. You could wear a giro aero head without the visor, and that meets draft legal tri and your road bike TT rules.
@@jonathanzappala The CTT rule is as follows: (29b) Helmets used in Road Bike category events must not cover the ears or have a tear drop/pointy style "tail", any helmet vents must not be covered or blocked. The helmet must not have been altered or had any element added or removed in terms of design or form but may be used as the manufacturer intended (e.g., sliding vents). It is prohibited to add a detachable cover to a helmet. The composition of the helmet material and its surface condition are not subject to any regulations. However, additions to the helmet are not allowed (cover, tape etc.). The CTT are not a UCI or British Cycling affilliated organisation and therefore can adapt and implement its own rules. You can't even use an aero road helmet with a detachable cover (which some did come with one) even if it is UCI legal so because at least part of the ear is covered, they will not be permitted. However I suspect, because there are no current helmets of this design on the market, the rules will be looked into issuing either a ruling fore 2025 or a clarification should they be released early.
@@matt_acton-varian and I would say the kask is not covering the ear. Every definition of covering includes the world concealment, and that most definitely does not conceal the ear. So your rule is different to tails as well, as triathlon has no mention of tails.
How does the peloton impact the modeling of aero vs light vs one-bike ? In the a major tour most riders spend so much time in a pack where aero is not a big a deal and the races are won in sprints and break aways that are short compared to the whole stage distance.
I have 2 friends who wear helmets with visors because they also wear prescription glasses. Prescription sports glasses are super expensive so i think its a great thing for those who want another option.
Come on Alex, even if your bike is truely SUPER nice, you can't vote and ring the bell for your own bike, Ollie should have done this ! What a pity his right hand wrist tendonitis doesn't heal faster to do so 😜. More aluminum and/or affordable bikes in the bike vault please ! Cheers to GCN people from the French Alps 😘. NB : Currently my road bike is a Trek Emonda ALR 5 (2023 with the blue/coral fade), my next bike will be lightweight, ideally a Time Alpe d'Huez most probably with disk breaks even if it's detrimental to the total weight.
Heavier riders who prefer to big gear grind at low cadences should probably opt for an aero bike, cook at top speeds, whereas lighter riders with a spinner high cadence ride style should go light weight bike or all arounder and shine on accelerations
Here's a controversial thought: a 10 watt saving is likely to have no bigger impact whatsoever in road racing, as for instance in Milan-San Remo, where the race is sooo long that the riders will ride «leasurely» for big parts of the race a change in position or a wrong line into a turn will have way greater impact on the result. Where it actually might make a difference, would be in a sprint finish and definitely in track racing where entire races are under full load and the winning margins are within 1/100 of a second.
We will eventually see aero bikes getting far lighter. We are already seeing their weight come down. Eventually there will be full aero bikes that are bumping into the UCI limit. At that point, either the dedicated climbing bike disappears, or UCI drops the weight limit.
If Aero dedicated bikes are nearing the UCI limit, then the limit itself is stifling progress. They should look at reducing the UCI weight limit, and then we'll see more separation between light weight bikes to aero bikes. Also, potentially allowing more freedom with fairings (which in itself come with weight penalties). Makes it more intriguing esp when the pros are now having to consider equipment on different stages. My 2c.
The idea was to prevent bikes that are too fragile but having the same weight limit for a 49kg women climber on a mountain stage and for a 80kg classics guy riding into Arenberg makes no sense.
If you go rim brake, you can have aero frame, deep dish wheels, at 6.8kg no problem, but the bike manufacturers don’t allow this anymore. Pros have no choice.
Manufacturers didn’t stop allowing rim brakes to spite you. They gave people a choice and for 10 years sales declined so they made a business decision to stop selling them. That’s how business works. It’s not a conspiracy, please stop implying it’s anything other than just another out of date product
They no longer make rim, brake bikes, so we have no choice, they make more money selling disc brake bikes that’s only reason they switched. More components, different wheels, etc
None of the aero testing takes into account the turbulent air of riding in a bunch (or even in a break), it basically just models a solo breakaway. Also some of the aero bikes can come in pretty much on the weight limit, the propel comes to mind
Yep - can’t believe they didn’t mention that. They quoted figures as if everyone was riding solo. The aero in a bunch does matter, but a fraction of what it does being at the front or on a breakaway.
I used to have a. Is or on my entry level Giro helmet in the late 90’ and I am sure I looked terribly dorky, but as a teenager with glasses the Velcro visor allowed me to not get blinded by the sunshine in Summer. Talking of sunshine: as someone living in Australia these days, having a helmet that protects the top of the ear reduces my risk of skin cancer on those exposed areas of the body. Combine that with an Oakley Kato and the nose is not looking like a strawberry either :-)
On hot summer days. Would tyres filled with dry air be better than tyres filler with bicycle pump? Some motor sports have found they can control the tyre pressure better because the tyres inflated with normal air pump expands greater than dry air inflated tyres…. I hope I’ve explained this correctly
Which bike to buy for us “self sponsored” cyclist is one thing….but what about wheels? Does one go for super aero or super light on an “all around” bike? I know the easy answer is based on the main terrain ridden in, but what if it’s varied terrain? And which type of wheel has the best overall rider comfort?
Just bought an SL8 Pro. Paired with the corresponding one piece cockpit and CLX wheels, it is like 30% faster than the 2020 SWorks Venge. I’m able to hold speed way easier with the right wheels/bars compared to the external cable bars and regular wheels. All those pieces help make the bike+body more aero then just bike alone.
@@durianriders rough numbers. Just lightly giving an example of based on the statistics that Specialized gives. Obviously, we don’t see the details that they do but in theory… much faster
Ollie can not criticise anyone about the state of their fence or path on the bike vault when he didn't brush his hair for the Tech Show. GCN need to sell a comb alongside their shadow stand
What impact does drafting have on the aero vs lightweight question? It seems like if I'm second or third wheel the aero vs lightweight bike difference wouldn't be the full 5 watts. If the savings gets down to a watt or two on the flat that might be totally erased by the weight advantage when you hit the climb (assuming you are still in the draft). For a team leader, if most of the race is spent sitting on a domestique's wheel and only the very end of the climb is spent solo, it seems like lightweight might come out ahead. For the domestique spending a lot more time in the wind, or for the break away artist spending their day off the front the aero seems much more clear cut. I'd be really interested in seeing a comparison of the aero savings for a solo rider vs a drafting rider.
There should be at least one tour where each team can only have one model of bike and fixed kit (including gears)for all stages including a time trial. What would they choose?
“An” all rounder bike, :may: be a compromise. I’m not an SL8 owner, but as others have said, [of good standing, with no sponsorship bias], regards weight, aero…the SL8 is empirically, demonstrably A* in both these regards. Quite a weird thesis to posit if using the SL8 as the basis.
I’m curious about the selle Italia ID match and the ‘any bike’ claim. Would it work on my 90’s Dawes Competition Giro300? I.e. does it work on bikes no longer in production? Or is it on a database of current production bikes? Looking forward to your video Ollie, and I just wanted to say I love the tech show! You and Ulysses are a great duo
What do you think this will do? Would that mean that the consumer has les bikes to choose from? It's going be interesting to see which routes the pro teams go down in the future.
"How comfortable would a 6.8 kg full-aero bike be"... comfort is improving. Trek Madone and Canyon Aeroad are remarkably comfortable, due to design innovation, each very different from the other.
I case of performance I can see the value of riding two different bikes. But the all-round bike is a more economical solution, less bikes to buy, less transport, less parts etc etc. One bike to do it all for a consumer is the way to go in my opinion.
In the 1980's, from the side of the road all those lugged steel bikes looked the same. It was only the paint jobs (I refuse to say "colorways") that differentiated them. Sure, the lugs on a Colnago Arabesque differentiated it from a Yoshi Konno 3Rensho (from a meter away), But is it really a "better bike"? At least the era of "murder bikes" (everything, and I mean everything, was flat black including the kits on the well-off Sunday riders in Southern California), finally appears to be over.
Since when are all the conditions for a best pro time, apart from the small difference an aero bike makes over a semi aero bike, since when are all those other conditions the same? How well did the pro rider sleep? Are they fighting off a virus? Any blisters? How are they feeling, mentally? The SL8 is so close, that one of those other factors could just as easily or even more easily affect the outcome.
You are assuming the “aero” package is being used 100% of the time during a race, which it isn’t because you’ve got drafting where aero makes almost no difference. So you are benefiting from the aero on your bike only when being in the front of the peloton and you are pulling.
Undoubtably, Aero bikes are faster. However, I'm not sure the calculation is entirely correct. It would be if the riders raced one on one for 150k, but mostly they're in the peloton or small groups and when you sit on the wheel, the aero advantage of having an aerobike is reduced due to do the drag of the riders in front of you. Therefore it would be interesting to see the wattages of someone riding a climbing bike and another riding a aerobike in a peloton. I recon the amount of power will be quite close. Wouldn't it be necessary to take that into account? In addition to that, most races are decided uphill, whether it's small punchy steep climbs or long ones, on which weight, under a certain speed (more or less 20k/h), always makes the difference. I'm not saying the outcome would be different and I do believe aero bikes will have most benefit in general. Though, exclaiming a certain bike is 6 seconds faster over a certain course doesn't really say that much because it neglects too many crucial factors of racing. I don't think the differences will be so big in a race situation.
Maybe manufactures should look at a thin matrisized steel or alloy ribbed/aero tubing, filled with pressurised helium to further reduce the frame weight. My 24 year old Cannondale running dura-ace and kysrium sl wheels (23mm tyres) is at least a kilo lighter than my current dura-ace DI-2 equipped carbon aero frame and wheeled bike. Over the 20km journey to work, it really is difficult to seperate the 2 in terms of overall time. The new machine definitely feels faster but maybe, just maybe, its all in the mind.
Between lightweight vs aero: As RB experts, you certainly know terrain plays some role here. I wonder if those pro teams have done simulation as well? As non pro, the difference can be even bigger as we differ in power greatly, unlike pro, and I feel all-rounder should fit mere mortals better
Does aero really matter to riders who are sat in a bunch all day? The climbers/GC riders don't put their noses in the wind on the flat. When it heads uphill, the ability to accelerate on a climb is what wins races, and that's much easier on a lighter bike
In 2011 everyone pointed and laughed when the GB team turned up to the road world champs in skin suits. Cav wins and the following year, everyone is zipping themselves into party suits. On the track, it has become completely normal to wear a full on TT style aero helmet in bunch races. Even at your local track league! I'm surprised that one of the sprint teams hasn't said "sod it, let's go chips all in full aero w@nk€r" and make all of the lead out guys and the sprinter ride the full TT lids, looks be damned. Because nothing looks worse than crossing the line in 2nd place banging your handlebars.
Do you think an all-rounder bike is an advantage or disadvantage for pro-riders? 🤔 Let us know in the comments 📝 👇
Aero aside, there will still be aero and climbing builds of same all-round model with different wheels and gear ratios. And if reduction in models will equate to less number of frames per rider, it will become an extra challenge to the mechanics, when and how exactly to service these.
I think for an almost entirely flat stage/race or an almost entirely mountainous one, then the all-rounder would probably be a disadvantage for pro riders when compared to a dedicated aero or lightweight bike (respectively). But for a route that mixes flat and hilly sections, then I think the difference would be hard to call. And, as you point out, I think an all-rounder probably makes more sense for most recreational riders.
One current aero bike that is at the UCI minimum weight is the Ostro VAM from Factor 😉
I have a new Tarmac SL8 with a few lighter components and it weighs 6.2kg... With pedals and bottle cage it is still under the UCI limit. Then why should you have to get a "real" climbing bike?
I build bikes as a hobby but have run out of curiosity. I have a BMC SLO and Campy. But I find my last steel Basso Loto with 10 speed Dura Ace a preferable bike. My Ridley with Di2 is not a particularly good bike because it is difficult to tell the up lever from the down. My steel Tommasini Fire and Fondriest Status don't seem very fast and the Trek Alpha 1.5 is a nice bike but a little stiff. If I were to have just a winter and summer bike it would be the BMC for winter and Basso Loto for summer.
If you are talking about Tarmac SL8 specifically, Tour Magazine testing indicated that it is up there with the fastest aero bikes, and weight wise, it is already very close to the UCI limit.
*Sponsored by specialized
@@Mmmmn520 Tour Magazine is very well respected, so you had better back that up with hard facts.
@@Mmmmn520 nope - Tour magazine is independent.
@@davidlau2467 it’s just a joke
Upvoted for relevance. I can't stand Specialized stuff but the Tour tests are the best we have and it's basically a wash with the top aero bikes.
"a lot of bikes are starting to look the same" Hi, I'm here from 1987 when I started racing bikes. If you removed the jewel toned paint, all lugged steel frames of the 70s-80s era looked pretty much identical. It wasn't until things like tig welding, aero hoods, aero designs (mainly reserved for TT bikes) dual control, clipless pedals and shaped tubing started coming onto the market that bikes started really differentiating. Colnago has always been known for their crazy paint schemes because for decades underneath the paint, they were just more rounded tube double diamond frames same as the last six decades.
This is a very good point about how many lugged steel frames looked similar in the 70s and 80s, we thankfully have a way greater variety of choice in bikes today but I still love my vintage steel frames 👍
I've raced, maintained (for myself and others) and ridden lugged / vintage bikes and old / obsolete systems for enough years and miles that when the options for lightweight well tuned carbon disc road frames with hydro brakes and AXS wireless shifting became available, I adopted immediately and never looked back. I never want to deal with inner tubes, cable stretch, brake fade on long steep descents (I live in Colorado) or narrow high pressure tires again. I put 30mm Strada tubeless on my Aethos and never looked back. To be fair I also was one of the first in my peer group to adopt clipless pedals (after going OTB on toeclips and almost permanently destroying a knee), dual control shifters, road disc, road tubeless, 1x for cyclocross and criterium racing (there is no better system than AXS 1x for CX/gravel racing and flat road racing and you will never convince me otherwise). I've been a coach, shop wrench, rider and racer for too long and seen too much that I don't want to compromise. It's way cool that other people love their Eroica bikes but having ridden that tech enough I am good with never using it again :)
I always thought this like all bikes have always looked the same so it’s not surprising 🤷🏽
If you look closely, you can always tell when the lights go out with Alex when Oli goes off on one of his technical commentaries.
Hahaha it's a look we've come to know well 😂
Cause hes a much better presenter Alex needs to go
It happens to me after about 3 minutes of the tech show too.
Good vid.
When I want to roll around town catching stringfoot pigeons for rescue I ride my sl8 sworks.
When I want every second to matter I ride one of my old rim brake race bikes.
New Year, new Ollie? He’s been super chill in the bike vault judging, letting infractions slide the last two weeks
I wish they would just require that teams are allowed 2 bikes only - a tt and a regular bike. This would force the bike manufacturers to produce one flagship bike and there would be economies of scale there that, in theory, would improve prices...
Interesting idea! What bike do you think the teams would pick? A do it all bike or an aero bike?
@@gcntech this would be the engineering question for the bike manufacturers but I'd suspect it'd be something like SL8
The discussion about lightweight and aero bikes has solidified my decision to purchase a lightweight all-around bike for my next purchase. The 6 seconds saved over 10 miles isn't a factor to my endurance riding and the events I participate in. Thanks for the great information.
It's al about finding the bike that works for you🙌 Do you know what brand you're going for next?
@@gcntech I've been looking at Vitus, but haven't selected a bike yet. Would love to be under the $3,000 price point if possible.
Forget the bars for $1300, how about GCN "bundle kit" costing $440? Why is it so expansive? Just went to the GCN web site and the bundle kit is gone, however, the question still applies. On GCN web GCN x AGU Aero Jersey cost $180, on AGU web they range from 40 euro to 100 euro which is around $108. So, is GCN logo cost $80? Same trend can also be found on bib shorts. Just want to know how GCN came to this pricing....
Any comments from GCN will be apricated.
Probably includes shipping and taxes from the UK; Agu probably have a US importer and distributor, but I doubt GCN do.
Nope, shipping is an extra….. either way, $440 is ridiculous!
Alex’s plain green GCN t-shirt matches his plain MacBook cover. Ollie love the flash of your MacBook matching your T!
I went back and forth on this for quite a while. Told myself I didn't "need" a designated climbing bike. Insisted a less expensive all around bike, which is what I had, would be fine. Eventually, listened to my gut, got the lightweight hill climbing beast that is the R5 and have never been happier. Oh I'm not winning le Tour on it, but descending is pure joy
LOVE the No. 22 Drifter submitted by Mark. Absolutely gorgeous with that subtle assortment of bronze paints and finishes. Stunner.🤩🥰😗
I think you should talk more about some down to earth problems, like, why should I throw away my Tarmac SL6 and spend 10-12k on a new SL8 .....
It’s fair to say top brands have already achieved that optimum of all rounder at low weight (7kg ish), tarmac sl8, Supersix evo, even the Ultimate is more of an all rounder these days. Plenty of tyre clearance in all these as well
I have an all out aero race bike, and its super fun, but honestly, most of the time i reach for my gravel bike with slick*ish tires on it. Because its comfortable
Same, especially when I don’t know all of the road conditions.
It would be great if Bike Vault submissions could be shared/linked. These are submissions this week that would totally merit zooming and/or longer looks.
Geometries of aero bikes and lightweight or "all-rounder" bikes are often different. For me the most impactful saving you can make to be faster, is to optimise your position, both from an aero perspective (head, shoulders, arms) and comfort. No point in being aero if you can't sustain it.
Great point! The rider position will always make the biggest difference. Have you done an aero fit ?
The other thing to consider is how a usually stiffer aero bike can be less comfortable and potentially make the rider feel more fatigue. I'm not sure if this has been empirically tested, but it's certainly a claim that I think Specialized have made about the SL8. Compliance = freshness?
Around 12:00 mark they referenced geometry and setting up the bike. Road Bike Channel's Dream Build series of videos has several with the Jumbo Visma mechanics assembling bikes for Jonas, Wout, Primoz, and Marianne Vos. When their mechanics are setting the saddle and lever positions, it shows them using a database of measurements for each rider and measuring implements to get the bikes perfectly set up for the rider it's being built for. I imagine most pro teams have similar tools that they use to keep a bike dialed in on the optimal measurements for each rider.
But how much difference does the aero bike make when the rider spends 90% or more of the stage in the peloton anyway? And I would also agree with other comments here around bike geometry and being more comfortable with a certain setup can make a huge difference also.
This comment 👌
There are still some benefit to aero even in group. It is greatly reduced, but it is still there. In a race, that little saving can help save a little for later. Plus, if they are going to win, they are going to spend time in the wind. Even the domestiques when they do their pulls.
@@DaveCM Thought: If a sprinter only spends 20-30 seconds in the wind in the final meters of the stage, are they better off with a lighter bike that has saved them energy over the climbs through the whole stage than having a slightly faster bike that they’ve lugged up all the hills?
The question I guess is if the weight difference or aero make the bigger difference in the group.
I agree with all your math at a high level, but if you consider cervelo and a stage that is mostly flat with a big climb at the end, the cervelo team will start on a s5 and need to switch to a R5, a really good bike switch time is ~15 seconds. That eats up the gains made from the aero benefits, so if they could just ride one good all around bike, it would be pretty much the same outcome. Also, aero advantages disappear when riding in a group because there is much less air resistance when drafting so aero bikes really only make sense on a flat stage in a break away when you're leading the train which is 1) not a large % of a group ride/race in time and 2) is not something most riders are doing even in a race. The aero bike doesn't even make sense for most consumers because they don't go fast enough to get the 16 seconds of gains in 40 km at 45kph avg. IMO, go lightweight, go used and have fun working on your fitness.
Agree on the aeros, but there are so many new bike bargains out there at moment I think it’s really worth checking out new bikes right now.
@@WillPower46 yeah good point
I 100% agree with all of this. But now lightweight bikes have a decent about of aero which as someone who rides 95% solo, I’m in the wind and appreciate. But for the pros, i don’t really see that an SL8 is a disadvantage to the Cervelos, Scotts or Canyons
The way I see it is that you can compare the numbers of weight verses aero and time saved at a given power output etc, but that assumes all things are equal with no variables. What difference does aero actually make when you are not on the front?
Ridiculous prices...fair shout to call out ENVE...let's forget about those prices for the new GCN kit 🙂
The new GCN kit is a bit expensive, but I don't think it is exceptionally expensive compared to a lot of premium kit. It is more than I'm willing to pay, but it doesn't seem too out of line.
Me with one aero and one lightweight 😅 is always fun to decide which one to use. ❤
What have you got ?
I had a Rudy Boost with a built in visor and it was great when it’s cold out. Loved the goofy look. Miss that guy.
♨️ *Luke-warm take:* The tire width/compound + wheel choice has a much larger impact on bike performance than “lightweight” vs “aero” frame.
Ooooo! We'll grab out lab coats... We better get testing 👀
For that price. Want a handlebar that steer by itself, makes me coffee and clean the house
Another cat-fishing , gaslighting thumbnail. Because in the vid you guys are praising the SL8. Love it.
It does say “why the tarmac COULD be a disadvantage” meaning it might be it might not be lol
And there is a question mark! No?
I think you're reading too much into it.
we do explain how it is likely to be slower on the flat or in a sprint than an out and out aero bike.
Thanks for saving me 30minutes
I want to see GCN test the new 12 speed Brompton up the silliest climbs in Bath, and no wimping out and getting feather to do the hard work.
Was at the TDU a fair bit, Local.
Was hoping there was going to be More at the tents
I think there is more modeling for Ollie to do. He already asked the right questions that are „How much faster can the Alpecin leadout train go on the pure aero bike“ and „is it really worth for them to take the Ultimate with them for the mountain in terms of saved kJ“.
I just think that someone like Specialized saying "1-bike to rule them all" is such a bad marketing move. I worked at some nice high-end shops and my well-off riders wanted an all out Aero bike and a secondary bike (endurance or super light). Having more categories can seem confusing to beginners but for the hardcore dorks, they want to be able to FEEL the difference and pick a bike based on how they feel or what they're up to on the road that day. So many of my customer gave me the same feedback, "bring back the venge". They've been asking for it since it went away. I think the SL8 is probably one of the best bikes I've ever ridden. I still picked the Aethos because I don't race, and wanted something light and simple to work on/service from home.
I am no pro, but I'd love to have options. I can't imagine being a pro and having 1 tool to tackle every challenge during race season.
The hour-glass front was introduced by Trek back in 2006 and they kept popping every now and then in other brands ever since
It's nice to see history repeating itself in some ways. Going back +30 years, the pro bikes appeared even more similar than they do today with lugged steel frames and big brands put more effort into their paint finishes.
Merida does exactly that as far as I remember - identical geometry for aero and light bikes. And we do see BV change bikes for different stages
I think the main issue with this theory is based on 45kph which is good for racing but when most club cyclist ride at 30kph the advantages are less, i would like to see you do a video for the average cyclist. My theory is an average cyclist would gain more from a light sportive bike and less from the "aero is everything" fashion. Take some 3-5k bikes and ride them at 30kph. This was more significant 5 years ago but now the lines are blured so i would be interested to see if the latest bikes have bridged the gaps of pros and cons.
We tested the aero bike vs climbing bike a while ago 👉 ruclips.net/video/5hViY4O2gYQ/видео.html - We're far from pro these days so this might help shed some light on the topic, we would love to do more content around this subject so watch this space 👀
That 45 kph is freestream speed. Most club cyclists ride in the real world with wind, right? Weight has FAR less impact for the average club rider than aero. I still can't decipher statistically significantly in my Strava the actual saving between my 15 pound bike and my 18 pound bike on rolling terrain
No22 drifter. Best looking bike I've ever seen
The giant propel SL is already 6.8 - 6.9kg depending on size
let's make sure to keep those enve handlebar enclose inside their warehouse
The savings of a few watts isn't just about seconds, it's about effort. Winning by the width of a tire isn't about how fast the rider moves at a given power. That doesn't account for real world race craft. It's relevant to a TT, but not a road race. Where the watts matter is in how much energy the rider has spent to get to that finish and how fresh they at that point.
Tour teams should be limited to two bikes, one for TT and one for all other stages.
Wheel changes for flat and lumpy stages, sure but this aero+lightweight+TT stuff, not a fan.
If riders are tested over changing roads and conditions, then so should their bike.
Bike manufacturers in collaboration with their teams should define their performance priorities in the design of the one bike.
Exactly! Somebody who gets it.......
Wouldn't those wattages only apply when you're in the wind? Since most pros spend the race in someone's wheel, the difference for most riders will be really small.
The races are always won by small margins though 👀 At the elite level they are fighting for every last advantage
Good one this week Alfred and Omar..
seems to me that aero is important when you are on a solo break, or at the front of the peleton. But presumably much less important when you are out of the wind in the middle of the peleton, in the draft.
Fun fact, thanks to the wording of the CTT Road bike classifications rules, the POC and Kask new helmets are not going to be allowed in Road Bike TTs. The rules dictate ears must be uncovered and visors are not allowed.
Is it an ear covered though? I am interested, because in draft legal triathlon the rule is no ears covered. The kask certainly doesn’t impair your hearing. You could wear a giro aero head without the visor, and that meets draft legal tri and your road bike TT rules.
@@jonathanzappala The CTT rule is as follows:
(29b) Helmets used in Road Bike category events must not cover the ears or have a tear drop/pointy
style "tail", any helmet vents must not be covered or blocked. The helmet must not have been
altered or had any element added or removed in terms of design or form but may be used as the
manufacturer intended (e.g., sliding vents). It is prohibited to add a detachable cover to a helmet.
The composition of the helmet material and its surface condition are not subject to any
regulations. However, additions to the helmet are not allowed (cover, tape etc.).
The CTT are not a UCI or British Cycling affilliated organisation and therefore can adapt and implement its own rules.
You can't even use an aero road helmet with a detachable cover (which some did come with one) even if it is UCI legal so because at least part of the ear is covered, they will not be permitted.
However I suspect, because there are no current helmets of this design on the market, the rules will be looked into issuing either a ruling fore 2025 or a clarification should they be released early.
@@matt_acton-varian and I would say the kask is not covering the ear. Every definition of covering includes the world concealment, and that most definitely does not conceal the ear.
So your rule is different to tails as well, as triathlon has no mention of tails.
@@jonathanzappala The CTT are UK Time Trial governing body, not Triathlons.
@@matt_acton-varian yeah I know that, read my first post again.
Let’s do something radical and put every rider in the Tour on the SAME bike. Then we’ll see who the best rider is!
They did that decades ago - why do you think the frame sponsors went away?
How does the peloton impact the modeling of aero vs light vs one-bike ? In the a major tour most riders spend so much time in a pack where aero is not a big a deal and the races are won in sprints and break aways that are short compared to the whole stage distance.
In my opinion, helmet visors look great in a competitive environment and ridiculous everywhere else.
And the half-ear covers look bad everywhere.
I have 2 friends who wear helmets with visors because they also wear prescription glasses. Prescription sports glasses are super expensive so i think its a great thing for those who want another option.
Come on Alex, even if your bike is truely SUPER nice, you can't vote and ring the bell for your own bike, Ollie should have done this ! What a pity his right hand wrist tendonitis doesn't heal faster to do so 😜.
More aluminum and/or affordable bikes in the bike vault please !
Cheers to GCN people from the French Alps 😘.
NB : Currently my road bike is a Trek Emonda ALR 5 (2023 with the blue/coral fade), my next bike will be lightweight, ideally a Time Alpe d'Huez most probably with disk breaks even if it's detrimental to the total weight.
Heavier riders who prefer to big gear grind at low cadences should probably opt for an aero bike, cook at top speeds, whereas lighter riders with a spinner high cadence ride style should go light weight bike or all arounder and shine on accelerations
Does the aero difference between bikes matter when riding in the wheels?
Also, what ever happened to the s works venge? Once upon a time it was the coolest aero bike you could buy
Here's a controversial thought: a 10 watt saving is likely to have no bigger impact whatsoever in road racing, as for instance in Milan-San Remo, where the race is sooo long that the riders will ride «leasurely» for big parts of the race a change in position or a wrong line into a turn will have way greater impact on the result.
Where it actually might make a difference, would be in a sprint finish and definitely in track racing where entire races are under full load and the winning margins are within 1/100 of a second.
We will eventually see aero bikes getting far lighter. We are already seeing their weight come down. Eventually there will be full aero bikes that are bumping into the UCI limit. At that point, either the dedicated climbing bike disappears, or UCI drops the weight limit.
The Van Rysel looks a perfect fit for Sky ten years ago
Vote with your budget when considering a purchase. Keep your cockpit ENVE.
If Aero dedicated bikes are nearing the UCI limit, then the limit itself is stifling progress. They should look at reducing the UCI weight limit, and then we'll see more separation between light weight bikes to aero bikes. Also, potentially allowing more freedom with fairings (which in itself come with weight penalties). Makes it more intriguing esp when the pros are now having to consider equipment on different stages. My 2c.
The idea was to prevent bikes that are too fragile but having the same weight limit for a 49kg women climber on a mountain stage and for a 80kg classics guy riding into Arenberg makes no sense.
If you go rim brake, you can have aero frame, deep dish wheels, at 6.8kg no problem, but the bike manufacturers don’t allow this anymore. Pros have no choice.
Thats true. I've got one bike with 50mm wheels, 11s and rim brakes. 6'4 kg pedals included.
Do you think disc brakes are making bikes loads heavier?
For Joe public, not much, but that extra 500 g makes a difference if you’re world tour rider
Manufacturers didn’t stop allowing rim brakes to spite you. They gave people a choice and for 10 years sales declined so they made a business decision to stop selling them. That’s how business works. It’s not a conspiracy, please stop implying it’s anything other than just another out of date product
They no longer make rim, brake bikes, so we have no choice, they make more money selling disc brake bikes that’s only reason they switched. More components, different wheels, etc
None of the aero testing takes into account the turbulent air of riding in a bunch (or even in a break), it basically just models a solo breakaway. Also some of the aero bikes can come in pretty much on the weight limit, the propel comes to mind
Yep - can’t believe they didn’t mention that. They quoted figures as if everyone was riding solo. The aero in a bunch does matter, but a fraction of what it does being at the front or on a breakaway.
I used to have a. Is or on my entry level Giro helmet in the late 90’ and I am sure I looked terribly dorky, but as a teenager with glasses the Velcro visor allowed me to not get blinded by the sunshine in Summer. Talking of sunshine: as someone living in Australia these days, having a helmet that protects the top of the ear reduces my risk of skin cancer on those exposed areas of the body. Combine that with an Oakley Kato and the nose is not looking like a strawberry either :-)
There is one coming... cant wait to share more!!!!!! Ultimate bike
All round bike, then optimise with two wheel sets. Climbing wheels for your trip to the alps, deeper rims to get to the cafe stop quicker. Done
What of the cafe is at the top of the alp? 😅
@@rob-c. Rear rim deep, front wheel climbing wheel 😂
On hot summer days. Would tyres filled with dry air be better than tyres filler with bicycle pump? Some motor sports have found they can control the tyre pressure better because the tyres inflated with normal air pump expands greater than dry air inflated tyres…. I hope I’ve explained this correctly
In the pro peleton, a saving of a few watts isn't enough to separate riders, as you are assuming they are at maximum power all the time, they are not
Which bike to buy for us “self sponsored” cyclist is one thing….but what about wheels? Does one go for super aero or super light on an “all around” bike? I know the easy answer is based on the main terrain ridden in, but what if it’s varied terrain? And which type of wheel has the best overall rider comfort?
Did someone just prove that Fignon’s Deltas and steel frame cost him the 1989 Tour de France on Alpe d’Huez?
Just a guess, but is the disadvantage that the SL8 costs almost as much as my Honda was new?
My 2012 Cervelo Soloist is looking to be a better and better choice the longer I keep it.
Awesome! Sounds like a great bike 👌
Just bought an SL8 Pro. Paired with the corresponding one piece cockpit and CLX wheels, it is like 30% faster than the 2020 SWorks Venge. I’m able to hold speed way easier with the right wheels/bars compared to the external cable bars and regular wheels. All those pieces help make the bike+body more aero then just bike alone.
30% faster = 36kph vs 30kph.
30% faster is 7mins for a lap vs 10mins.
@@durianriders rough numbers. Just lightly giving an example of based on the statistics that Specialized gives. Obviously, we don’t see the details that they do but in theory… much faster
So you recommend it ? Did you get the green one
Ollie can not criticise anyone about the state of their fence or path on the bike vault when he didn't brush his hair for the Tech Show. GCN need to sell a comb alongside their shadow stand
What impact does drafting have on the aero vs lightweight question? It seems like if I'm second or third wheel the aero vs lightweight bike difference wouldn't be the full 5 watts. If the savings gets down to a watt or two on the flat that might be totally erased by the weight advantage when you hit the climb (assuming you are still in the draft). For a team leader, if most of the race is spent sitting on a domestique's wheel and only the very end of the climb is spent solo, it seems like lightweight might come out ahead. For the domestique spending a lot more time in the wind, or for the break away artist spending their day off the front the aero seems much more clear cut.
I'd be really interested in seeing a comparison of the aero savings for a solo rider vs a drafting rider.
16.40 in...@ollie flaming the price of the Enve one piece bar...I take it then that GCN are not sponsored by Enve 🤔
Idk why such a high end bike brand like colnago would only have a climber road bike, the Pinarellos and Specialized bikes are pretty insane though.
Ollie's deadpan delivery as he's talking about nipples 🤣
There should be at least one tour where each team can only have one model of bike and fixed kit (including gears)for all stages including a time trial. What would they choose?
The POC helmet might look ridiculous but both EF teams have been smashing it so far this season
I was SO happy to see Simon Carr win without the ugly thing.
“An” all rounder bike, :may: be a compromise.
I’m not an SL8 owner, but as others have said, [of good standing, with no sponsorship bias], regards weight, aero…the SL8 is empirically, demonstrably A* in both these regards.
Quite a weird thesis to posit if using the SL8 as the basis.
I’m curious about the selle Italia ID match and the ‘any bike’ claim. Would it work on my 90’s Dawes Competition Giro300? I.e. does it work on bikes no longer in production? Or is it on a database of current production bikes? Looking forward to your video Ollie, and I just wanted to say I love the tech show! You and Ulysses are a great duo
15:48 well said… that should be possible
Go down the motorsport route - and nominate ONE bike model for the whole season, no matter what race.
What do you think this will do? Would that mean that the consumer has les bikes to choose from? It's going be interesting to see which routes the pro teams go down in the future.
"How comfortable would a 6.8 kg full-aero bike be"... comfort is improving. Trek Madone and Canyon Aeroad are remarkably comfortable, due to design innovation, each very different from the other.
Having ridden a Cervelo S5 and the S-Works SL8. I can say the SL8 is at no disadvantage on the flats and arguably faster
I case of performance I can see the value of riding two different bikes. But the all-round bike is a more economical solution, less bikes to buy, less transport, less parts etc etc. One bike to do it all for a consumer is the way to go in my opinion.
Surely the aeroad frame is not 500 grams heavier than ultimate? A good chunk of the weight difference comes from the components.
In the 1980's, from the side of the road all those lugged steel bikes looked the same. It was only the paint jobs (I refuse to say "colorways") that differentiated them. Sure, the lugs on a Colnago Arabesque differentiated it from a Yoshi Konno 3Rensho (from a meter away), But is it really a "better bike"? At least the era of "murder bikes" (everything, and I mean everything, was flat black including the kits on the well-off Sunday riders in Southern California), finally appears to be over.
given riding in group for pros on flat, is aero pointless when you are 6 deep in a bunch
Scott Addict Ultimate RC - £15,899
Scott Foil Ultimate RC - £15,899
Is that what you want people to consider GCN?
Since when are all the conditions for a best pro time, apart from the small difference an aero bike makes over a semi aero bike, since when are all those other conditions the same? How well did the pro rider sleep? Are they fighting off a virus? Any blisters? How are they feeling, mentally? The SL8 is so close, that one of those other factors could just as easily or even more easily affect the outcome.
RE: POC helmet. Is the visor available with a vision prescription?
The distance between your eyes and the visor might make this difficult.
I agree that not all nipples are the same to work on ... when they're not coming out and stay internal, that's the most difficult to work on.
You are assuming the “aero” package is being used 100% of the time during a race, which it isn’t because you’ve got drafting where aero makes almost no difference. So you are benefiting from the aero on your bike only when being in the front of the peloton and you are pulling.
Bianchi is Super Nice :) Pete
Undoubtably, Aero bikes are faster. However, I'm not sure the calculation is entirely correct. It would be if the riders raced one on one for 150k, but mostly they're in the peloton or small groups and when you sit on the wheel, the aero advantage of having an aerobike is reduced due to do the drag of the riders in front of you. Therefore it would be interesting to see the wattages of someone riding a climbing bike and another riding a aerobike in a peloton. I recon the amount of power will be quite close. Wouldn't it be necessary to take that into account? In addition to that, most races are decided uphill, whether it's small punchy steep climbs or long ones, on which weight, under a certain speed (more or less 20k/h), always makes the difference. I'm not saying the outcome would be different and I do believe aero bikes will have most benefit in general. Though, exclaiming a certain bike is 6 seconds faster over a certain course doesn't really say that much because it neglects too many crucial factors of racing. I don't think the differences will be so big in a race situation.
Maybe manufactures should look at a thin matrisized steel or alloy ribbed/aero tubing, filled with pressurised helium to further reduce the frame weight.
My 24 year old Cannondale running dura-ace and kysrium sl wheels (23mm tyres) is at least a kilo lighter than my current dura-ace DI-2 equipped carbon aero frame and wheeled bike.
Over the 20km journey to work, it really is difficult to seperate the 2 in terms of overall time.
The new machine definitely feels faster but maybe, just maybe, its all in the mind.
Between lightweight vs aero: As RB experts, you certainly know terrain plays some role here. I wonder if those pro teams have done simulation as well?
As non pro, the difference can be even bigger as we differ in power greatly, unlike pro, and I feel all-rounder should fit mere mortals better
Ultimately it's about finding the bike that fits your style of riding, whatever it going to get you cycling more is the best option 🙌
Does aero really matter to riders who are sat in a bunch all day? The climbers/GC riders don't put their noses in the wind on the flat. When it heads uphill, the ability to accelerate on a climb is what wins races, and that's much easier on a lighter bike
Errr, didn't GCN do a video showing that climbing on an aero bike IS quicker than a lightweight climbing bike...so why now contradict yourselves?
we touched on that concept here. its speed and gradient dependent.
In 2011 everyone pointed and laughed when the GB team turned up to the road world champs in skin suits. Cav wins and the following year, everyone is zipping themselves into party suits. On the track, it has become completely normal to wear a full on TT style aero helmet in bunch races. Even at your local track league! I'm surprised that one of the sprint teams hasn't said "sod it, let's go chips all in full aero w@nk€r" and make all of the lead out guys and the sprinter ride the full TT lids, looks be damned. Because nothing looks worse than crossing the line in 2nd place banging your handlebars.
No reason why you couldn't weight weenie a Propel or Madone and get it down to 6.8kg, best of both worlds :)
Maybe we should give it a go... 👀