jungkook slander in the comments😕 just because you all fell for the "bts can't sing" propaganda from kpop stans doesn't make him a bad singer. i stand my my original statement that he's one of the best singers in the industry👍
this is so important, thank you, im a guy who used to sing in a band, jk is definitely a phenomenal singer and yet i see people calling him average or even subpar w some even saying rookies sing better, things like the KVA have left kpop stans mind broken, they don't recognise technique and they love to slander anyone they don't like, it's so insane
They get so hurt everytime bts gets any small amount of appreciation I’m sorry but we didn’t say your faves are worse than him we just said he is one of the best and if you don’t like it we don’t care He is still praised by his seniors and juniors and is in rolling stones greatest singers of all time so yes he is great
He's a natural when it comes to stamina and musicality (gosh he KNOWS how to confer emotions with different techniques), but he lacks in intonation and his breath support is weird (sloppy vocal runs, inaccurate ending of phrases and meh belting, but he can dance and sing, like how). I'm conflicted about it a bit, cause intonation and breath support are, well, basics for singing, but JK is really pretty unique with his strong and weak points and he loves singing, so he's definitely not bad
All these factors reminded me of something SUGA said about music show performances. That instead of trying to do as many performances as possible and just running the Idol into the ground, one or two really stellar performances would be so much better. The Idol possibly could concentrate more on singing live instead of having to save every bit of energy for the dozen performances they're about to have to do. But the thing about Idols being interchangeable because they kinda sound similar; agreed. Companies and stans run through groups like Halloween candy because all anyone cares about is if the group is new, not necessarily if they're entertaining. Something has to give.
Ikr I couldn’t believe my eyes when I was reading those comments that was like one of the best songs last year and it was because of them beautiful vocals
oh FINALLY someone brings up the lip syncing epidemic. i don't really mind groups lip syncing once or twice especially prior and after a tour. but to rely heavily on it? especially if they're not rookies anymore? it's a no from me. fans pay RIDICULOUS amounts of money for concert tickets. the least these groups could do is sing live.
One thing that gets me kinda peeved is the amount of times I see fans say things like "omg they eat cds" "they're stable" etc. on an obviously lipsynced performance, like I don't know if it's just denial or just people genuinely don't know what an actual live performance sounds like because everything is just lip sync nowadays. And don't get me wrong I get the purpose of lipsyncing, and I don't mind it being done every now and then, but it's just sad to see it be relied on so much. One concern I have is that people are to gain unrealistic expectations of what live singers sound like because they're so used to seeing edited and cleaned prerecordings and lip synced performances. It's clear that kpop has always been a very visual centered industry but it's honestly feel like it's getting worse.
HEAVY on people not being able to recognize a real life performance. it's never supposed to be perfect and i absolutely despise mfers who will discredit idols that sing live by pulling up the few shaky vocals from a performance. like thats just what comes with live singing, if youre moving your head in every direction on earth then yeah some notes will be shaky or flat or a line might just be dropped all together so that the idol can sing the next line with more energy.
@@angelelelelalalalalelae EXACTLY!! Don’t get me wrong I don’t want them to sacrifice their vocal health so I get lip syncing at some points, but the whole song? Every performance? What’s the point of watching a live stage if they’re not even singing live, I might as well just watch the MV again. And personally I love those moments of imperfections when performing cause it for me, it just makes the good parts shine even more.
The Lia part is so true!! The moment I knew kpop stans no nothing about vocals was when people were saying Yeji is a better vocalist than Lia! Like genuinely people think the higher note you can hit, the better vocalist you are. Lia is the one who makes ITZY’s music sound so great! If it’s not her singing the topline, it’s her harmonies and adlibs. I definitely felt her absence in Mr Vampire and Untouchable. Calling Lia untalented when her vocal skills are millennia above the rest of the members IS WILD. I’m not even a Lia stan but it just annoys me seeing dancers get elevated above vocalists again and again!!
honestly, kpop stans don’t seem to realize how important vocals are. there are so many songs i could name where they would sound so much better if they were sung by idols who could actually sing ☹️ it’s not super obvious in dance heavy songs (hence why they’ve become the norm) but there seems to be this unwritten rule in kpop that every albums needs a ballad and i genuinely think that some groups should restrain from releasing ballads… the only 4th gen ggs where i can say that every member is at least an average vocalist are aespa and nmixx and you can Hear the difference in their songs compared to their peers 😭 im no vocal expert so when *i* can tell that you’re straining then maybe it’s time for an extra vocal lesson or two
I checked Nmixx's new album and my God! My first thought was "You see? When you have VOCALISTS...". All the songs were taken to the next level because the girls sounded so good.
I agree with you and I think this is the reason that I am such an NMIXX fan. I love their mixxpop sound now but I honestly don’t think I would have given them a chance if they didn’t serve vocally on a REGULAR BASIS.
I’ll never get over how under appreciated NMIXX are! Seen them in concert on one of their very first dates & they were PHENOMENAL! Those girls are the full package. Dare I say the MOST talented & all arounder girl group in 4th gen 💁🏽♀️.
Finally, someone mentions Lia and how people think she's less important because she "can't dance" even though the songs sound better BECAUSE of her singing. Cause like you mentioned, songs need SINGERS not dancers. Also, people do care for dances more, and it may have to do because audiences have a chance on dancing like their idols. But singing? They don't have a chance unless they seriously practice and focus on technique.
Remember the scandal in the west when Madonna won a live singing award and Elton john called her out...fans were literally peed off at him for calling her out,most others fan were annoyed she accepted the award when it was common for her to lip sync...she copped it.(Q awards 2004) Why then is acceptable in kpop and it should never happen at a concert but it sadly does a member of BP lip sync at soundcheck that is atrocious. Harmonizing when done correctly is pure eargasm-listen to the Bee Gees its heaven, 4th/5th gen have forgotten not everyone can see their favs on stage so they need to listen to cds where dancing is irrelevant though Jongho of Ateez has the ability to sing and his singing is top class-he has quite a beautiful tone and gorgeous voice,
I remember this. Elton John has always had more respect for singers that sing live because that's literally their job! Also Jongho and a few others are the exception not the Rule it seems this gen. I saw him and ATEEZ live, and their vocals were so good.
K-pop has focused more and more on the aesthetic (visual & dance) over any musical or vocal talent for sure. These companies really just want models to sell products and wear luxury goods.
the scary part is not that kpop stans have become tolerant towards lip synching, it's that a lot of people can't tell the difference between live vocals and backtrack.... it's really scary
To me when the backtrack is louder than the vocals, and when they randomly scream one word in the rap part and people say that their mics is on, i consider it lip sync...for example lisa's money performance, it was all entirely lip sync, except when she screamed 'I LOVE THE WAY THAT FEEL", where its the only usage of her voice in the entire song, and fans on the comments were praising her for having the mic "on' but what's the usage of an on mic if u don't use it ? That's how most kpop groups lip sync in their concerts, sure, some are more shameless with it where they play the studio ver and nothing else, but that's usually reserved for the tv show performances and stuff, the concerts they usually have the "mic on" so they can randomly scream an adlib to trick people into thinking its live when 99% of it is either full lip sync, backtrack higher than the vocals, or either only the rapper does it live
I think the vocal decline actually started in the later half of third gen and is finally gaining enough criticism that the later fourth gen groups are being picked with at least one or two noticeably above average vocalists. There are a handful of later fourth gen groups I think standout as having better than average vocals (probably not through company training, but at least picked because of of actual technique and vocal ability)
Who is that? In general 3rd gen has way better vocals with people like Wendy from Red Velvet, Baekhyun from EXO, Eunkwang from Btob, Yuju from Gfriend, Wheein from Mamamoo, Jungkook from BTS, D.O from EXO, Ken from Vixx, Taeil from NCT, Youngjae from GOT7, Rosé from Blackpink, Chen from EXO, Solar from Mamamoo, Jay B from GOT7, Daehyun from B.A.P, Kihyun from Monsta X, Solji from Exid and Seungyoon from Winner. While 4th gen just have Ningning from Aespa, Jongho from Ateez, Goeun from Purple Kiss and Lily from Nmixx as very good vocals.
@@vixxexo6855Not to nitpick, but Monday from Weeekly is quite good, as is Jo Yuri, who’s a little above average. Lesser known are Haram from Billie, who I’m not very familiar with but everything I’ve seen from her seems quite good, and Nayul from 12dal, a true nugu who is very technically skilled. Also, I’m not sure I’d consider Rose one of 3rd gen’s best when Jihyo and Seulgi are both better than her. Just my opinion though.
Truthfully I'm not very familiar, but my knowledge is that Treasure's vocalists are pretty much standard- they don't excel but they're good and get the job done well, and Keeho from Piwon is their best. He seems slightly above average, but I really haven't seen enough material to judge properly.@@143szns
I’m also livid about how fans these days have made it as if good vocals are old school. This is what happens when we get used to normalizing mediocrity. Fans will die defending their faves even knowing they’re mid.
My top groups are Ateez, Dreamcatcher, XG, Red Velvet, Rolling Quartz, and Astro and I am so happy for that! It’s wild to hear singers singing is considered outdated these days 😂😂
I have a bit of a side tangent on the live vocals v lip syncing which you brought up. I think that the rise of social media and the rise of lip sync in Kpop happening in tandem is not on accident. Because live vocalists can have something unexpected happen when they perform- they can go off key, miss a note, have a voice crack or lose their voice. EVEN those well trained and naturally skilled can have a bad day. And in 2nd gen and earlier social media wasn’t as prevalent so those mess ups weren’t spread around as quickly. Now every single missed note lives on Twitter and tiktok on repeat to be viewed again and again. I think companies are not willing to risk their idols reputations for the chance of a bad note or a shaky performance. So they’d rather use lip sync to maintain an idols perfect image- even if it’s fake.
This is why I enjoy groups like aespa & NMIXX. Everyone in the group can sing & support. Lily, imo, is the current top girl group singer of 4th gen! She has an awesome technique & sings great live followed by Haewon. NingNing, & Winter are amazing too but I hope SM lets them sing live more often because when they do they NAIL it!
Honestly, why do k-pop stans tolerate the bar being lowered for idols in ALL aspects? The thin vocal ability. The bad rapping. The lack of musical diversity and uniqueness amongst groups. The lyricism. The stiff or outright piss poor performance. Often times groups will be years into the game and still haven’t improved on a single one of those things because as long as these companies dye someone’s hair blue and slap a sickening visual on it the fans will keep eating it up. One of the biggest reasons I can’t get into most boy and girl groups 3 gen and later is that if fans closed their eyes they can slide any member of any other group and nobody would notice a thing. There might also be more idol soloists if companies actually cared about uniqueness and skill, but in a group everybody gets to blend their 10-20% together to make something that resembles a cohesive pool of entertainment worthy talent. This song is great, this song is bad- no sweetie all these songs sound the same. The vocalists and rappers are indistinguishable from each other and the music is copy+paste. I shouldn’t have to look down at my streaming app to see who is who. BTS sounds like BTS. Red Velvet sounds like Red Velvet. Dreamcatcher sounds like Dreamcatcher. Lip syncing is tolerated because the overall bar for k-pop is lowered and nobody has to actually try to raise it.
true. for kpop fans the only thing that matters is entertainment. the idols have to be entertaining, have a funny persona and of course fulfill their need for fan service of all kind. music is an extra and many fans don't even listen to it lol. having to listen to a song 6 times to start liking must be a struggle.
I agree with everything you said. Like I am genuinely going to create a document to put performances that are actually live because when I want to see a live performance of something I hate combing through the search results to find one where they're actually singing. For some groups, it's damn near impossible to find one. And while I love a lot of kpop dances I wish more of them would be choreographed to accommodate live vocals. Or at least there should be more performances where the group is just standing still and singing.
i could understand if they were bringing all the idols up to some (reasonable) basic level of singing where they're good but no further and then after that point focusing on the dancing but like the fact that people will literally say singing doesn't matter when we are discussing MUSICAL artists??? "not everyone can sing!!!" like girl ok then. don't be a singer. ???? leave???? it's not like we put a gun to their head and said they have to sing. they can pursue a career in dancing if they want. they don't have to be singers in the first place. they can get a different job. also the thing is the bad training shows with the dancing too. kpop idols are generally good at dancing FOR IDOLS. which is a pretty depressing thing when you consider they literally lose sleep and their entire social lives over training. literally any student who takes dance as a hobby but is also serious about it could easily outdance them. idols are lacking in technique and in strength and the ones who aren't are exceptions. and tbh i'm not sure about red velvet harmonizing. i'm sure they do it but pretty much every example i've seen is like... members recording multiple tracks so they can harmonize with themselves on the studio version. i've seen so many "great harmonies" from red velvet that end up just being like 12 layers of wendy's voice and literally no one else. even "vocally strong" groups like rv can't harmonize because there are only 1 or 2 members who are vocally strong to start with. then you run into similar issues as asking a bunch of weak vocalists to harmonize with each other. recording it in studio shouldn't be hard and they don't sing live anymore anyway
FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT!! I never understood the hype over this whole « Red velvet are the queens of harmonizing » when they never harmonize while live singing. Or sometimes it’s only Wendy doing a high harmony while the 4 others sing in unison. Or maybe it’s just Little Mix that raised my standards…
I find the switch up very interesting because a couple years ago, if an idol was caught lip-syncing there was an immediate response about the inability of that idol to sing. People would be PISSED, and it was like fuel for fan wars, "at least my idol can sing/ my idol sings live so their better than yours". I remember just saying "x idol can't sing, they lip-sync" would cause so many fights and i wasn't even deep in fandoms like that to see it . I find the lack of singing ability incredibly annoying and outrageous; can you imagine how pissed off I was watching I-land and they spent the whole show focused on performance, when barely any of those boys could barely hold a note? (I stopped watching at ep7). Dancing is definitely a major part of it but at the end of the day, SING! You are singers, i expect there to be singing and harmonization. I am here for your singing at the end of the day. I am buying your albums to listen to the music i enjoy, the pretty pictures and pcs are just a bonus imo. And i find their companies silly for this because are you not embarrassed? Your singers CAN'T SING, their main selling point and they can't even do that? I wouldn't want that to be my reputation.
Well they still are offended if someone says “x idol can’t sing, they lipsync” but for different reasons. Back then, it was prolly because ppl know these idols can sing and haters are wrong. But now, it’s because they know these idols can’t sing and “haters” are right but they don’t wanna admit it. Kinda sad if you ask me
It's not just Kpop..it's the industry overall. Talent in Singing is secondary..it's all about looks, over-reliance on personality and brand possibility, audience retention .
I'm someone with absolutely no background in singing (I was a dancer for 15 years but my only singing experience was my brief time in my primary school choir before I was told to 'just mouth the words', so I hope that explains just how little background I have in singing). I agree with a lot that was said in this video (less talk-singing, less lip syincing, more harmonizing, etc) but I did want to add/mention something. I believe that there is a difference bewteen being a 'singer' and being and 'idol', much like there is a difference between being a 'dancer' and an 'idol'. Being an idol is not just about singing (and/or dancing); rapping, acting, variety/interview skills, modeling, acting, visuals, etc are all part of what being an 'idol' is as singing is only one part of what makses and 'idol' and idol. That's why many groups have posistions: the 'best singer', the 'rapper', but then you also have the other members that are the 'visuals' or 'the [insert non-Korean language] speaker', the member that was added for their variety skills, or members that are added to match a group concept/gimmick, etc. Part of what makes Kpop work is the fact that there are Sub Vocalists to support the Main/Lead Vocalists, much like how there are Main/Lead Dancers there to support non-dance-line members. I understand that great live singers are essential within the music industry, but I always associated Kpop with the 'entertainment industry' rather than just the 'music industry' as a lot of what makes Kpop ... well, 'Kpop' is not just the singing/music but also the dances, fan cafes, variety shows, fancams, photocards, fanmeets, and now more recently things such as TikTok challenges. I think that the current state of Kpop Vocals is a reflection of how the Kpop Industry leans more into 'entertainment' rather than just 'music'. Although, I would love to see live singing make a comeback in kpop 💙
You are actually right, I am an old K-Pop fan and at the begining I looked a lot about why they are "idols" and not only singers. "Idols" are entretainers but at the same time they are role models and cheers for teens and children. They are about to portrait the values and principles of Korean society and, of course, to entretain trought many activities: that is why SM, the company that actually refined the concept of idol, train in acting, music, modeling, as comedians and for being host on many variety of entretainment options. The "idols" developed on the time of TV so they have growth to have a huge visual appeal but still they have or used to have division: there were actors idols like Krystal of f(x) or Minho of Shinne, there were singer idols like Taeyeon or Jessica of SNSD and dancer idols as Hyoyeon of SNSD and Shindong of SuJu, both belong in an "idol" group but their job was always dance but still prooved support in the vocal department, and there were entreteiners idols that specialized in variety shows like Leeteuk of SuJu and Sunny of SNSD but there were too idols who did musical teather, advertisings or modeling, I know the ones of "idols" groups because I followed them and they were not that big back then. Now it seems that with BP the "idol" figures started to merge in only one and they want to make "super" idols that do everything like Woonyoung of IVE or Yoona of SNSD and the girls of Black Pink. The problem is that they started to forget the music and singing department as the video pointed.
i would go so far as to even say not every kpop idol needs to be a vocalist, like, its fine if dome idols can't belt their hearts out or hit the highest note, not everyone can be that singer, and i appreciate idols with unique tone! but at the very least they need to have a good hold on what their voices CAN do, stay on pitch and, for the love of god, SING LIVE-
I’d say singing isn’t important because that’s not what Kpop is selling. They’re selling idols, not singers. That’s the reason why. Dancing is a direct correlation to performing. Singing is as well, but it’s just not as important. Especially for groups. You mention singing as we listen but most times were listening to albums that have gone through post-production. The landscape of an idol and what’s being sold has changed.
I don't think it has even changed that much. Being an idol has never been about singing. Being a singer is about singing. Being an idol is about performing a sometimes musical persona for people to form a parasocial bond with. Her opening statements sound so bizarrely obtuse, the only way it makes sense is if Korea doesn't recognize singers as a seperate profession , but they do! they value it more than being an idol lmao! And it predates the idol profession also! Idols were never a replacement or even just a new way to be a singer. It's a profession that exist alongside it and often overlaps with it but has never been focused on producing Singers. If you're good at singing you can just become a regular singer. The reason the idol industry exist alongside that much more respected path is because it has always sold a different product. Just cause your fave happens to be incredibly good at singing doesn't mean that was the primary reason to debute them, frankly it never is. But it would be if they were just seeking out a regular singer profession. . That's why the industry could so quickly and sharply focus on spectacle and video when the technology improved. They never aimed at creating Celine Dion's, just likeable personas that get people to spend money. Sometimes you gotta take time to understand what the product is selling before complaining about what it is doing wrong. This video is the equivalent of complaining that Shonen mangas never center women. Like, shonen means "young boy" in Japanese. What did you expect? Like it is cool when it gives us some well rounded female characters but it' silly to argue they should be centered in YOUNG BOYS stories. Like just read different mangas, by authors who specifically sell what you want to buy, instead of complaing that an author with a specifc target audience isn't catering enough to the people outside of it. Uplifting Shojos and Joseis do more for female rep than asking clueless men high on Naruto to write women. And it's the same with kpop, except you don't even need to uplift anything cause Singers are already more known and better respected than idols! You don't even gotta do anything. The industry and its fans know what it is selling, do YOU? And for the record, this is coming from someone who rarey listens to Kpop specifically because I think the products lack vocals and originality in the music department. I just know also that when I need that, I just look somewhere else. If an industry keeps making loads of money by not making things to my taste they aren't "doing it wrong" and forgetting what they are "supposed" to be aboutlol. Not every musical product is about singing and the quality of live vocals, like her argument about why we listen to albums is weird. I listen to Ryuichi Sakamoto and Hiroyuki Sawano everyday but have no idea what their voices sound like?? Music isn't just about vocal ability, ESPECIALLY NOT IN THE 21CENTURY like come on. And to act as if that is inherently a problem that needs fixing is very pretentious. Again, not all niches have to be for you, it doesn't mean they are failing at anything.
The lipsync one, the groups i stan are B.A.P, SVT, Ateez and Dreamcatcher Lets just say im very proud of my idols for their LACK of lipsyncing and their obvious HATE of doing it 😂
Omggggg, finally someone mention B.A.P ❤ its rare for people to mention them tho every time topic of live performances came out 😢 B.A.P were so good in singing live ❤❤❤
in my opinion I think hearing someones live and raw vocals makes there performance much more entertaining its makes it feel like a real performance and not some idols moving there mouths a bit
Shoutout to KIOF and NMixx for understanding the assignment and reminding me why I fell in love with Kpop to begin with. (And aespa + Billlie to an extent)
like if u can dance good but the way choreographies r getting harder and more idols r lip syncing, there r fans who say ' oh their dance is hard so they cannot sing' like then just be a dance group if u do not have those skills...
I have said it before and I will say it again, Gen 3 has very few truly talented vocalists. Mamamoo and Red Velvet are the only 2 GG that spring to mind. I don't know enough about the BG from Gen 3 so I cannot comment. I don't think the artists are to blame and attacking them online does them no favours. Their respective companies are to blame, because they have not pushed their idols to improve consistently. If you look at the growth of Mamamoo and Red Velvet from their respective debuts to present day, they have improved consistently year on year, singing and harmonising as a group. As a Luvie I accept I'm going to be bias, but even Irene and Yeri, traditionally Sub Vocalists have improved their singing, which is a credit to SM (words I never thought I would ever say). This video is excellent at highlighting the decline in the standard of vocalists in the 4th and 5th generation which is mirrored by the decline in their respective companies performance, both financially and reputationally. 👸👸👸👸👸 ❤💛💙💚💜
ok so on the topic of lipsync, i think it's acceptable if it is to preserve an idol's vocal health. i believe lily of nmixx has been somewhat sick during promotions for dash so she has been lipsyncing during music show performances, which i think is fine. and during the circle chart music awards, belle of kiss of life looked and sounded like she lipsynced some of her high notes and her "big" high note at the end of shhh was cut. i stand by the fact that lipysyncing is acceptable if it is to preserve an idol's vocal health if they are or have been sick and some singing could damage their voices. if an idol can sustainably and healthily sing, however, they absolutely should be singing live.
This generation has gotten great at dancing but at the expense of the vocals. And it sucks bc at the end of the day, they're supposed to be musicians. Sure watching performances is great, but most of my musical experience is listening to music as opposed to watching live performances. If you can't sing, don't expect me to be a proper stan bc the music just isn't worth my time.
this reminds me of TripleS, I do actually really love them dispite of this cause the music just sounds good, but I almost fell out of my seat when I realized NONE of the members of AAA sing the high notes in 'Generation'. It's literally the queen herself, Adora, doing all the hard parts 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
This is a real no shade question with groups like newjeans who don't heavy vocal songs like heavy heavy ballads, cause they do lofi type songs is it really wrong for agencies to not focus on vocal training. Because I'm sure agencies have a made image for the group.
I still remember hearing two of the CLC girls (I can’t remember which ones) harmonize for a couple seconds during the bridge of Me and it instantly gave me chills because moments of harmonizing are so rare in kpop. I love Red Velvet for the same reason you do, their harmonies are really what dreams are made of.
On topic of harmonizing, I think songwriting got very streamlined too - my fav pre-chorus of all time is f(x)'s Rum Pum Pum Pum, for a while I was baffled that we weren't seeing more of concepts like that, especially with how popular Pink Tape was, but your video kind of makes me realise that for kpop companies it may just not be worth the effort to go out of the box and in the end even "experimental" projects go back in to the line with the rest of industry and just keep shooting out content that they think will just sound nice to general public. I would also add one more thing though, as extension to tolerance argument - modern day kpop choreos are just not made with live singing in mind and choreographers know they can get away with it because people are just used to lip syncing and put more attention to other aspects of performance. And btw no, hard choreo doesn't mean you cannot sing live, if you want good example look at Alexas stages like Do or Die or Wonderland, they are still dynamic but they are also paced with singing in mind, where currently a lot of choreos like idols to highlight harder singing notes with dynamic moves, often leaving idols out of breath and making the singing very hard.
I totally agree with you. For me the singing/vocals is the most important element. In order my favorites are 2NE1, Girls Generation, and Mamamoo. I love their singing. 2NE1 and Mamamoo have had performances where the just sing and hold your attention. Girls Generation has great vocal skills and wonderful group harmonies. I judge groups by watching live performances which shows their real skills. I have songs I love but I did not love the mv or live choreography. I will take a longer look at Red Velvet base on your analysis. Thank You.
@@imiterlude I agree Red Velvet has lovely harmonies. Still working through their live performances. Found this "Killing Voice 2NE1" which has clips from liver performances. ruclips.net/video/gGOKou_Vg54/видео.html You might be interested. Thank you.
@@mayiluvu3 I love SNSD and 2NE1, but you can't really compare them. Its like comparing an apple and a tomato. They are both fruits and both excellent but they certainly are not the same.
I agreed with you, since my ult is a vocal heavy group 'BTOB', they give me a high standard towards other groups. They have great songs, 4 great vocalists(2 tenor + 2 baritone),2 great rappers(different rap style),they can harmonized like no other and they can do riffs and runs too. Their concert didn't have extravagant props bcs their heavenly vocals performance + live band is enough. They always singing live, and they really well known with that in South Korea. Singing live is also part of training to be a better singer. Even after 12years in industry,some of them still going to vocal classes.
Lot of idols these days need more vocal training for sure. What happened to strong vocalists. Im so tired of the lipsyncing and loud backtrack, i dont mind it but every performance???? Its so boring, my favorite performances are when you can actually hear the idol singing. Personally i dont care for voice cracks, vocal mistakes, like I dont want perfection. I just want to hear singing. And why are idols lipsyncing when they are standing or sitting down????? Like why?? WHERE IS THE TALENT THESE DAYS. My favorite group is Ive but all the members needed more vocal training. If nmixx, aespa, ateez can dance and sing live, then what's the problem. They should really lessen the dancing because it's really difficult to dance a hard choreography and sing.
Honestly I’m wouldn’t be as upset if idols lipsync every once in a while. I find that since these newer gens are so dance focused that live singing to them is just secondary. I mean I’d be out of breath too doing all the kicks, flips and tricks these idols are doing these days.
You only spoke facts, I had this porblem with the Kpop industry for YEARS, thank you so much for bringing attention to this topic! I wish more Kpop youtubers talked about this
It's funny and pity that NMIXX literally don't fit into any of your complaints, yet they are much less popular than those lip-sync groups. Talents and skills in idols had became less and less important since the 2nd/3rd gen. Just look at how much lip-syncing SM and HYBE idols have done on music shows in the recent years. Red Velvet haven't sang live even for once on music shows since Queendom, it's so absurd. Yet the two HYBE girl groups are very popular and successful. So from the company's perspective, why do they need proper training anyways? They even seldom sang live and they could become a hit. It's those kpop stans approving lip-syncing, making k-pop less and less about talent and live.
It’s not about kpop stan approve or not, bc they can send all messages and trucks and companies are the ones that decide if a group sing or not live Also why are you complaining about nmixx popularity when it’s not people’s fault that they are not attractive, you can consider them the most talented artist on earth and if people don’t care about their persona they will not support them It’s easy, other groups click with fans and general public, nmixx didn’t and if they weren’t from jype they would be flopping harder than what they are
“If they weren’t from JYPE they would be flopping harder than they are”. NMIXX are not flopping. NMIXX not being as popular as some of there peers is not flopping. Flopping is when a group can’t outperform their OWN achievements. NMIXX have zero issues outdoing their previous achievements. A 3 million seller group, with 2 EPs that received triple platinum certification from circle chart, 2 songs that entered the billboard 200, has over 4.6 million Spotify monthly listeners and songs with over 100mil streams cannot be flops. Be serious. And you can literally apply your statement to any big 4 group. You know how many groups there are that have MORE talent and BETTER music than some groups from the big 4 that aren’t popular? Majority of groups from the big 4 besides BTS/SVT are not guaranteed success just bcuz they have GP friendly music/talent. Having a company with a lot of money and impact to back you is the reason for most big 4 K-pop groups success.
@@Slayoon nmixx don’t outdo their own achievements, they just have to 1 achievements every comeback that looks like they are doing better For example this comeback, they didn’t have more sales neither the first day or the first week, didn’t have their song in the top 50 of melon even when a whole week of promo, and didn’t have any big debut on international charts, but in this comeback they had 3 wins so people like you think they are doing “better”💀 Anyways you can be blind all you want but the reality is nmixx is a flop
@@afeliz2642 “Didn’t have any big debut on international charts”: NMIXX 2nd EP "Fe3O4: Break" debuted on this week's Billboard Top Current Album Sales at #6! It's their highest entry on the chart surpassing 'expérgo' (#12). JYPE shipments were slow which is why NMIXX didn’t outsell their previous comeback sells. This has been a talked about issue with other groups outside JYPE as well. Like AESPA for example their sales dropped significantly compared to their previous work. So with your logic are AESPA also “flops”??? If you say yes then you’re beyond delusional.
@@afeliz2642 Dash didn’t chart on Melon due to what fans and k netizens believe to be sabotage. Everyone’s been saying for years how Melon has been sabotaging JYPE artists ever since JYP called them out for manipulating their charts. NMIXX are charting on Apple Music Korea, RUclips Music Korea and other platforms HARDER to chart on compared to Melon. This happens with other JYPE groups too. It is hard for JYPE groups to chart on Melon or chart high on it. Not often do they chart well on that platform. K netizens are discussing the legitimacy of Melon. Which we already know they’re not legit given the times they were called out for chart manipulation. K netizens pointed out how other artists with lower placements on every other streaming platform/chart are randomly charting/charting high only on Melon.
I remember when Yuna did a cover of Jennie’s You & Me. When she was accused of lipsyncing, fans were defending her and gave her a pass just cuz she’s hot and I was like what?
aespa is one of the only 4th gen ggs I can listen to, because there's a distinction between each member's vocals, and they're all at least decent. not JUST meeting the line for the consideration of "decent vocals", but nice RnB/hip hop vocals suitable for the genres they've explored so far. maybe it's just me, but I can't stand hearing juvenile, monotone vocals, especially if the production already isn't interesting or well put to me.
Exactly and that's the reason twice has my ultimate respect. I was in awe when I saw them in Germany. Everyone was singing live for more than 2 hours while also dancing their hearts out and especially Jihyo giving it her all performance wise while proving why she is in the top 3 greatest vocalists of her gen. This is also the reason SM groups lost all of my respect through the years because the lipsyncing has become so permanent with their groups. From rookies to well establish groups and artists that have proved they can sing, nowadays their reliance on lipsync gets to the point of mockery to their fans who are paying to see them
you are just a delulu Twice sing live with a laud backtrack, that’s why jihyo, nayeon and jeon needs to be louder than it, but all the others literally just don’t sing or sing so low to the point it just the backtrack Also why would you don’t respect a group vocal abilities when it’s the company’s fault not them, when they sing live they end twice so…
Thank you for this video! I used to sing in a chorus in high school (and am now a crappy car karaoke singer who’s voice hasn’t been warmed up properly since, lol 😂) and I’m just a music nerd in general, so seeing this so commonly happen in k-pop in the last few years has made me less interested in it. I see k-pop fans and k-tubers always saying that vocals don’t matter as much as visuals do. These companies focus way too much on that now that fans even think it’s normal to disregard vocal talent too. They say their favorite group is super talented, but that group is doing the same thing 30+ other groups are doing (which is everything you mentioned in this video). Red Velvet is the perfect example of being well rounded in everything. Concept diversity, production/musical diversity, great ability to memorize choreo and do it well, and above all, they have incredible vocalists who can harmonize beautifully together. K-pop companies gotta put their priorities in the right place and stop focusing on looks and aesthetics so much to where vocal ability is overshadowed. I’m very glad you said this 👏🏻
Heavily agree on all of these!! I’ve always loved singing and I’ve done musical theatre for most of my life. I’ve been getting more and more into kpop and it’s jarring having live performances be so hard to find and sometimes harder to listen to. Very rarely am I satisfied with a live performance and it can really diminish the listening experience knowing the idols didn’t write the songs they perform and can’t sing them well (that’s why groups like (G)I-DLE, NMixx and Mamamoo interest me more alongside second gen groups). I greatly miss vocal-heavy songs and one that I fell in love with (I AM by IVE) let me down a bit in encores with how some members struggle to sing it.
Tbh, I have already started complaining about truly proficient vocals dissipating since the 3rd gen. 2nd gen was the generation with the most amount of strong vocalists. There were quite some female vocalists that could give Taeyeon, for example, a noteworthy competition. Like she has always been a proficient vocalist, just the top vocalists back then were either her level or higher. To name a few: Ailee, former Kiss&Cry Dia, Davichi Haeri, former Seeya Yeonji, former CSJH Lina, Fx Luna, Apink Eunji, former 15& Jimin, Son Seungyeon, Uji, Hyorin, Shannon Williams, etc. After gen 3 truly took over, only Wendy of Red Velvet could be Taeyeon’s noteworthy competition. Even Mamamoo can’t come close. Even gen 1 being the very first gen, still trying to figure out what worked and what didn’t, had way more proficient vocalists to offer than gen 3. 3Mix of Twice are at SNSD Sunny and Tiffany’s level at best. The vast majority of Kpop idols in gen 4th and 5th lack vocal basics like breath support and constantly choosing stylistic choices over proper skills.
tbh for the longest time seeing how lipsyncing has become a norm in kpop, i have thoughts that it also might be that idols now are scared of people's reactions especially on social media for years in case if they sing live and have one off day and have one voice crack. Like kpop stans have not left jimin alone for that one voice crack as if he doesn't have 200+ performances of him delivering amazing vocals. Like this thought that idols and even companies are more cautious regarding this and keeping that perfect visually aesthetic idol image always pops up in my mind.
Agreed with all these points as someone who also has a background in singing. I just hope this “trend” ends soon and we get back some heavy vocals and not just from 2 or 4 groups like more than that. 😢
I've said this before and I will say this again, I hope all the K-Pop fans who would like to hear idols who sing live and do it well check out P-Pop (Philippine pop) idol groups. They ALL sing live and they all have the foundations for good singing! Please check out BINI (I highly recommend their Wish Bus performance of "Huwag Muna Tayong Umuwi" or their dance-and-vocal practice for "Lagi" as a starting point), ALAMAT (their raw vocal performance of "Maharani" on Rappler? SO GOOD), SB19 ("I Want You" on Wish Bus is a good starting point), or G22 ("Babalik" on Wish Bus is great). I could actually name so many more groups, but seriously, P-Pop groups have really solid live vocals, raps that actually make sense (and most of them are self-written), and great dancing.
4:00 I am honestly surprised you said that. I really think Haewon and Lily are the only ones who can keep up with the vocalists from 2nd/3rd gen. I mean lily sang with Ailee and was able to do it fine.
1:12 True . You should either be able to do both or know how to sing . Lia gets unnecessary hate. This is why I like that even though Gidle doesn't have difficult dances , they sing live 90% times . Skz , Svt , Ateez Mamamoo all sing live . Le sserafim lipsync a lot . So do NewJeans and when they do they are not as stable except Hanni and Hyein. People say that they have difficult dances but they absolutely don't. The most stable in Le sserafim are Yunjin and Chaewon and Garam when she was in the group.
1:12 True . Some people say that they do it because they have difficult choreos . So 1st-3rd gen just doesn't exist now ? Blackpink has started to lipsync since the past 2-3 years . Earlier they didn't. Seventeen, Ateez , Skz , Mamamoo ,Nmixx , Dreamcatcher etc. don't/rarely lipsync . Dance is not an excuse. Choreos can be jumpy but it's their job to sing. Le sserafim lipsynced at MMA 2022 , people said it's because to the dance break (Which wasn't difficult at all) . NewJeans have easy choreos yet they still lipsync a lot . Hanni sings live the most. Minji lipsyncs the most . Don't even get me started on IVE .
I agree. It saddens me to know that alot of kpop fans do not realize what their idols’s main job is, neither do the idols themselves. So glad I get to see a comment section full of brancells for once.
1:12 Exactly. SM training is the best in the vocals and dance category. YG accepts people who are already talented to just train them a bit more to get more stylistic tone .Hybe and Jyp are the worst at this .
Okay so i hate the lip syncing. lets start then i feel like slowly kpop is becoming a visual industry rather than music industry. in many groups the most loved member is not the one who actually has the talent to stay in the industry rather its a member who's visual is according to the korean beauty standards. i honestly hate korean beauty standard. i don't understand their level of craze for visual like what's the hype which puts a lot of people in pressure as they think they have present themselves according to the standard. like after some age all the external beauty or makeup gonna vanish. what stays is a person's internal beauty. i feel like people should be judged on basis of their personality rather than their visuals. i mean of course some people are their who are mesmerising but i feel like that then their whole personality revolves around that. that's why we can never tell how idols act off camera. because they are forced to present some certain image. people don't realise this but kpop is a music industry and music is the main point of that. and not being able to sing live then i want to ask what they are trained for years how to act cute like that's nonscence. i know alot of people with not gonna agree with me but as a human i have my freedom of speech and i am gonna put out my opinions. and this next thing which i am gonna say it can may be me just over thinking but yeah i am just gonna say it. i have alot videos of little korean babies and most of the time the questions the girls ask are am i pretty like at such age how they are focusing so much on these types of things. rather they should be taught to treat each other with kindness. the korean beauty standards are extremely high and ridiculous and what they gonna achieve if they fit the standards are they getting some medal or trophy for that. and one thing i don't understand is what is the definition of the word pretty. why some people are considered pretty and some are not what they have done wrong. i strongly believe that god has created each one of us with equal love and we should be confident about ourselves rather than running behind to fit these standards. we should do things at our own pace. one message i wanted to spread was self love. and that we should be kind to each other. thank u for reading. and if u don't like these comment then just mind your own business. because i strongly believe these points and nobody's gonna change that. hope everyone out their knows their worth and stays safe. spread love❤🩹
I agree with everything you said to some extent. The lack of vocalists in 4th/5th gen is very apparent and really sad, there is many groups with barely any great vocalists, in my opinions out of 4th/5th gen the only groups with great vocalists are for girl groups, Aespa, Kiss Off Life, Purple Kiss, and obviously being the best out of all groups NMIXX, for boy groups the only one that comes to mind is ZEROBASEONE as they have 3 members capable of being main vocalists and 4 lead/almost lead vocalists. Also, for the lypsyncing i think the main reason is how hard it is to sing while dancing at the same time as well as the lack of training on singing live, if a group is standing or sitting lipsyncing should be off the table completely, but during a performance i think that its ok to lipsync sometimes but if its always then they shouldnt even put the mics anymore and just turn into a dance group. And during concerts, no group should lipsync cause no one should pay those huge amount just to see someone mouth the words to their songs, and during concerts it should be completely live with a faint backtrack
Great video! You speak my mind!! Especially as a singer it must be so frustrating and confusing. When I first got into kpop I was confused af. The lack of vocal skills, but idols get praised for their dancing or looking pretty!? 😅 I like listening to Kim Woojin as a 4th gen vocalist!
tvxq 5members and jyj were the only groups who were master at harmonizing and even tho all of the 5 members had really unique voices from each other they harmonize the best it's insane how rarely new gen fans know about that and they never respect older more talented idols too
1:12 Agreed . Some people say that Spicy by Aespa suits Itzy more . I disagree as the only ones who will be able to get the vocal tone of the song right are Lia and Yeji and maybe Chaeryeong. 3rd gen groups are still making songs that need more vocals but it is very uncommon in the 4th and 5th gen with a few exceptions here and there.
recently i group i like(d?) took it a step further - they kept the singer from the demo track in the intro and chorus! not just background vocals, but like the main/only vocal. i couldn't believe it, they didn't even credit her as a vocalist or ft. in the video description :( i'm glad my other faves - Billlie, Kiss of Life, NMixx sing live more often than not.
I agree with most things, and just wanna say that it irks me to no end when stans of certain 4th gen groups act like their faves invented singing, when their voices are average at best. It's really annoying seeing "this is why xyz group is underrated, nobody appreciates their vocals, they are industry leader vocalists" in every comment section, but then you listen to the songs and are like... What. Where. This is exactly the same as every other 4th gen group. What are you talking about.
I so so agree with everything said in this video! The issues you mentioned are some of the reasons why as soon as I realized what k-pop is about I dropped the idea of becoming a multistan (no hate to anyone who considers themself one tho 💜). We really need more people to point out how big of a problem current standards for vocalists are. Also I have some other examples for: a good vocal group that is capable of vocal heavy songs & harmonies: Mamamoo (istg they're too underrated) and an artist who gets/got a lot of unreasonable backlash just because their voice is unique: Jimin - actually, when I think about it, there is way too many misconceptions about Bangtan's whole absolutely amazing vocal line but that's a topic for another time & possibly not everyone is ready for it. Anyway, stay safe y'all
The excuses stans give as to why idols lipsync are so baffling to me. "They're dancing to hard choreography, singing live would be too hard!" Like what? Girl, no. Hard choreography is not an excuse when an idol can't even sing their 5.3 seconds of lines for a music show. Especially when back in the day, all idols were expected to sing live, not just the ultra talented ones. Even the weakest vocalists in gen 2 could at least hold a tune while dancing. There. Is. No. Excuse.
If you like vocals in k-pop, and vocally challenging songs, I think you’d love Dreamcatcher live stages! Siyeon and Yoohyeon are outstanding, but other members like SuA and Handong are also great imo. You also make a good point because every time I see people say SuA is an incredible singer, they make sure to clarify that she’s their “main dancer,” as if that somehow means she’s not supposed to be as good because of that role? It’s really weird.
I understand your takes, but there's some things I'd add. First, Let's not forget that K-pop is an industry so the goal is to achieve the most profits with the least costs. Companies would not improve the vocals if they make profits with mediocre songs. Second, songs aren't just pieces of art where talent matters, songs are something you can relate to, feel happy or sad, want to dance or sing, etc. We are far away from times where ballads were the most popular songs. So a catchy and repetitive summer bop is already a good song for what was made for, even though the execution wasn't perfect as a piece of art. All of the above isn't much of a choice for idols, but to companies who are playing on safe ground and producing what is currently popular amongst audiences.
I hate how some fans get so defensive over the lip syncing discussion...like damn, this is what kpop is supposed to be, this is what kpop has been sold and portrayed as : people who sing AND dance at the same time. I'm sorry for expecting the bare minimum, I really don't care if you get voices cracks or if you sound shaky, but at least I know that you're singing live, and I'll ALWAYS give props to that. I'm obviously not blaming the idols, companies are most likely the ones restricting them from singing live. I don't know if it's a lack of resources or whatever but come on...
I kind of hoped companies would make kpop idols sing live more when the wonyoung strawberry moon controversy happened and when aespa were viral for their encore perfs for savage because it obviously means people are clamoring for live vocals. I wouldn’t really blame the idols for lip syncing, its really the companies themselves setting these groups up for hate. Y’all call it a lack of talent from idols themselves when really it is not. Idols like jongho from ateez are a beast when singing live and nmixx is setting jyp up to be the vocal company with their lives.
It's truly frustrating how K-pop groups and companies rely heavily on lip-syncing its getting so ridiculous, and it feels like a waste of time. I can understand an exception if they have packed schedules that following day, however it's getting to the point where we do not hear anything atp and just it literally diminishes the idol's talent as a whole. Kpop overall lost it's spark for singing and dance and visual is the only thing that earns a person a spot in their groups its quite honestly sad.
About style in using harmonization , it May look like more as r&b that dosent "sound" new and fresh. It like in american pop using r&b elements that was all the range in the 2000 and 2010 sound nostalgic or dated. But yeah I also find the just relay singing a little bit weird in the begining.
i feel like these days in kpop’s 4th/5th gen u tend to see more “all rounder” members in groups- wherein no real positions are assigned and everyone is Just Decent at rap, dance, and singing. performance and looks seem to matter more n more to companies lol. personally however i’d much rather have idols that are _actually good & passionate at what they do_ rather than Just Okayish, ykwim?
a lot of the time idols just want to be that: idols. they like the image associated with it rather than what it should be about: music. there’s a total lack of musicians or music passionate people in the industry
I don't have a background in singing and I'm new to K-Pop, but this is just my opinion. Artists in general in both K-Pop and Western music are less and less just singers and more and more becoming a product that encompasses a lot of things: singing, dancing (if applicable), rapping (if applicable), social media presence, charisma, looks, relatability, etc. Because we have easier access to artists the demands consumers have of them are more broad and there is less weight on single aspects, even singing. This is most notable in Western hip-hop where lipsyncing is the norm, rappers are heavily auto-tuned and don't sound anything like in the recording. Newer viral singers are also following that trend where they are loved for their looks, social media presence etc, and they sound good in recordings (at least according to their fans) but they can barely sing live. Obviously there are exceptions like certain indie and indie-adjacent artists, singer-songwriters, etc. Even then, Taylor Swift and Olivia Rodrigo for example are good singers but they wouldn't be nearly as popular if they weren't so relatable to a lot of people and if they weren't so good at connecting with their fans. Now to K-Pop specifically, the same things I mentioned about Western music apply but two-fold. Because K-Pop artists are seen as a product by their company, singing, dancing, fan engagement, visuals, stage presence, etc. all play a role in how successful they are. My guess is idol candidates are selected primarily on their looks and a baseline ability to sing and are primarily trained on the other skills (PR training, rapping, dancing, etc.). This is simply the market that we live in nowadays, the standards accepted by most consumers. In today's world you don't have to be an exceptional singer to be a successful music artist. Especially in K-Pop where more and more weight is being put in aspects outside of singing. That being said I think it's a worldwide phenomenon that happens in most genres. I agree that this diminishes the integrity of music and we don't get to see that many exceptional singers who know how to harmonize, but personally I think it is what it is and K-Pop/music in general will continue to go in that direction unless something massive changes
I agree with EVEYTHING except the "singing matters more than dancing part". It would have if kpop was all about music. But kpop is also equally about performances, that's what makes kpop kpop, and sets it apart from other music industries. And hence, singing and dancing in kpop hold equal value and importance. Now you as an audience can have your own preferences, like what matters more to YOU- the music or the performances? that's honestly subjective. But you're right about dancing mattering more than singing these days, it should be equal. One more thing, if you can only sing, you're a singer. if you can only dance, you're a dancer (not essentially a backup dancer in an insulting way cause let's not devalue talent), but if you can sing and dance both GOOD enough, THEN you're an idol. it's a hard deal but that's what auditions and training is for now isn't it. That's why we have GROUPS, some should be great dancers but decent singers, others great singers but decent dancers cause being an ace is not that easy and practical on a large scale. You're right, kpop doesn't utilize being a group properly. (Btw I'm also trained in classical singing)
1:12 True . You should either be able to do both or know how to sing . Lia gets unnecessary hate. This is why I like that even though Gidle doesn't have difficult dances , they sing live 90% times . Skz , Svt , Ateez Mamamoo all sing live . Le sserafim lipsync a lot . So do NewJeans and when they do they are not as stable except Hanni and Hyein. People say that they have difficult dances but they absolutely don't. The most stable in Le sserafim are Yunjin and Chaewon and Garam when she was in the group.
You are so right. As an old DBSK fan and a former singer, I really do see the big difference in today's idols and those of the 2nd gen. I can recognise every voice in DBSK. These days I find little distinction between voices in groups. When you hear DBSK sing 'Love in the Ice' or Bolero' live it's amazing. They're voices are very distinct from each other but they harmonise beautifully. There are times when they sound off key but usually that's because they're trying to dance and sing at the same time. Live singing is always a risk. I guess taking risks is something companies don't want to do.
They don't even sing the chorus together anymore. And u can tell how this song was badly cut up so each individual can have a part. That one group member who's there for dancing is now terribly rapping or singing.
jungkook slander in the comments😕 just because you all fell for the "bts can't sing" propaganda from kpop stans doesn't make him a bad singer. i stand my my original statement that he's one of the best singers in the industry👍
this is so important, thank you, im a guy who used to sing in a band, jk is definitely a phenomenal singer and yet i see people calling him average or even subpar w some even saying rookies sing better, things like the KVA have left kpop stans mind broken, they don't recognise technique and they love to slander anyone they don't like, it's so insane
sm stans and their desperate need to discredit bts' vocals, especially jungkook is hilarious to me. bunch of opinions run by jealousy and delusion
They get so hurt everytime bts gets any small amount of appreciation
I’m sorry but we didn’t say your faves are worse than him we just said he is one of the best and if you don’t like it we don’t care
He is still praised by his seniors and juniors and is in rolling stones greatest singers of all time so yes he is great
He's a natural when it comes to stamina and musicality (gosh he KNOWS how to confer emotions with different techniques), but he lacks in intonation and his breath support is weird (sloppy vocal runs, inaccurate ending of phrases and meh belting, but he can dance and sing, like how). I'm conflicted about it a bit, cause intonation and breath support are, well, basics for singing, but JK is really pretty unique with his strong and weak points and he loves singing, so he's definitely not bad
@@sepulvedavicente And in the end who is the most succesfull and loved vocalist of them all.....
All these factors reminded me of something SUGA said about music show performances. That instead of trying to do as many performances as possible and just running the Idol into the ground, one or two really stellar performances would be so much better. The Idol possibly could concentrate more on singing live instead of having to save every bit of energy for the dozen performances they're about to have to do. But the thing about Idols being interchangeable because they kinda sound similar; agreed. Companies and stans run through groups like Halloween candy because all anyone cares about is if the group is new, not necessarily if they're entertaining. Something has to give.
Idols being interchangeable because they kinda sound similar is too accurate, I mean look at fifty fifty.....
Its wild that RV's song is considered "old fashion" because of the stellar vocals 😅 whew chile.
Right!?!
Ikr I couldn’t believe my eyes when I was reading those comments that was like one of the best songs last year and it was because of them beautiful vocals
oh FINALLY someone brings up the lip syncing epidemic. i don't really mind groups lip syncing once or twice especially prior and after a tour. but to rely heavily on it? especially if they're not rookies anymore? it's a no from me. fans pay RIDICULOUS amounts of money for concert tickets. the least these groups could do is sing live.
fr and groups don't deserve to be called "vocal groups" if they're not bothered to sing live
Tbh Idgaf if my fav group lip synces bc its still their voice plus most of the time the company makes them do it.
@@yuenmienyu how a company not letting a group sing live have to do with their vocal abilities?
unless the choreography is making them doing backflips and shit they shouldn't really be lip-synching
@@--5265 I mean you aint lying but most of the time the company makes them do it
One thing that gets me kinda peeved is the amount of times I see fans say things like "omg they eat cds" "they're stable" etc. on an obviously lipsynced performance, like I don't know if it's just denial or just people genuinely don't know what an actual live performance sounds like because everything is just lip sync nowadays. And don't get me wrong I get the purpose of lipsyncing, and I don't mind it being done every now and then, but it's just sad to see it be relied on so much. One concern I have is that people are to gain unrealistic expectations of what live singers sound like because they're so used to seeing edited and cleaned prerecordings and lip synced performances. It's clear that kpop has always been a very visual centered industry but it's honestly feel like it's getting worse.
So true.
HEAVY on people not being able to recognize a real life performance. it's never supposed to be perfect and i absolutely despise mfers who will discredit idols that sing live by pulling up the few shaky vocals from a performance. like thats just what comes with live singing, if youre moving your head in every direction on earth then yeah some notes will be shaky or flat or a line might just be dropped all together so that the idol can sing the next line with more energy.
"they're so stable" 😭😭 baby, they ain't even singing!!!
@@angelelelelalalalalelae EXACTLY!! Don’t get me wrong I don’t want them to sacrifice their vocal health so I get lip syncing at some points, but the whole song? Every performance? What’s the point of watching a live stage if they’re not even singing live, I might as well just watch the MV again. And personally I love those moments of imperfections when performing cause it for me, it just makes the good parts shine even more.
The Lia part is so true!! The moment I knew kpop stans no nothing about vocals was when people were saying Yeji is a better vocalist than Lia! Like genuinely people think the higher note you can hit, the better vocalist you are. Lia is the one who makes ITZY’s music sound so great! If it’s not her singing the topline, it’s her harmonies and adlibs. I definitely felt her absence in Mr Vampire and Untouchable. Calling Lia untalented when her vocal skills are millennia above the rest of the members IS WILD. I’m not even a Lia stan but it just annoys me seeing dancers get elevated above vocalists again and again!!
honestly, kpop stans don’t seem to realize how important vocals are. there are so many songs i could name where they would sound so much better if they were sung by idols who could actually sing ☹️ it’s not super obvious in dance heavy songs (hence why they’ve become the norm) but there seems to be this unwritten rule in kpop that every albums needs a ballad and i genuinely think that some groups should restrain from releasing ballads… the only 4th gen ggs where i can say that every member is at least an average vocalist are aespa and nmixx and you can Hear the difference in their songs compared to their peers 😭 im no vocal expert so when *i* can tell that you’re straining then maybe it’s time for an extra vocal lesson or two
Amen
Don't generalize, they're so many people who are interested and take it seriously
I checked Nmixx's new album and my God! My first thought was "You see? When you have VOCALISTS...".
All the songs were taken to the next level because the girls sounded so good.
I have so much respect for those two groups my god. I don't stan them but I always listen to their albums knowing that I'd be blessed by the vocals
@@nri4950 oh no i know don’t worry! i myself am a kpop stan who thinks vocals are important, im just using “kpop stans” as an umbrella term lol
I agree with you and I think this is the reason that I am such an NMIXX fan. I love their mixxpop sound now but I honestly don’t think I would have given them a chance if they didn’t serve vocally on a REGULAR BASIS.
I’ll never get over how under appreciated NMIXX are! Seen them in concert on one of their very first dates & they were PHENOMENAL! Those girls are the full package. Dare I say the MOST talented & all arounder girl group in 4th gen 💁🏽♀️.
Finally, someone mentions Lia and how people think she's less important because she "can't dance" even though the songs sound better BECAUSE of her singing. Cause like you mentioned, songs need SINGERS not dancers. Also, people do care for dances more, and it may have to do because audiences have a chance on dancing like their idols. But singing? They don't have a chance unless they seriously practice and focus on technique.
Remember the scandal in the west when Madonna won a live singing award and Elton john called her out...fans were literally peed off at him for calling her out,most others fan were annoyed she accepted the award when it was common for her to lip sync...she copped it.(Q awards 2004)
Why then is acceptable in kpop and it should never happen at a concert but it sadly does a member of BP lip sync at soundcheck that is atrocious.
Harmonizing when done correctly is pure eargasm-listen to the Bee Gees its heaven,
4th/5th gen have forgotten not everyone can see their favs on stage so they need to listen to cds where dancing is irrelevant
though Jongho of Ateez has the ability to sing and his singing is top class-he has quite a beautiful tone and gorgeous voice,
I remember this. Elton John has always had more respect for singers that sing live because that's literally their job! Also Jongho and a few others are the exception not the Rule it seems this gen. I saw him and ATEEZ live, and their vocals were so good.
@@aSUGAaddiction gotta love Elton he says it like it is...
K-pop has focused more and more on the aesthetic (visual & dance) over any musical or vocal talent for sure. These companies really just want models to sell products and wear luxury goods.
the scary part is not that kpop stans have become tolerant towards lip synching, it's that a lot of people can't tell the difference between live vocals and backtrack.... it's really scary
Most call bad singing to actual raw live singing. That is so sad.
To me when the backtrack is louder than the vocals, and when they randomly scream one word in the rap part and people say that their mics is on, i consider it lip sync...for example lisa's money performance, it was all entirely lip sync, except when she screamed 'I LOVE THE WAY THAT FEEL", where its the only usage of her voice in the entire song, and fans on the comments were praising her for having the mic "on' but what's the usage of an on mic if u don't use it ? That's how most kpop groups lip sync in their concerts, sure, some are more shameless with it where they play the studio ver and nothing else, but that's usually reserved for the tv show performances and stuff, the concerts they usually have the "mic on" so they can randomly scream an adlib to trick people into thinking its live when 99% of it is either full lip sync, backtrack higher than the vocals, or either only the rapper does it live
I think the vocal decline actually started in the later half of third gen and is finally gaining enough criticism that the later fourth gen groups are being picked with at least one or two noticeably above average vocalists.
There are a handful of later fourth gen groups I think standout as having better than average vocals (probably not through company training, but at least picked because of of actual technique and vocal ability)
Who is that? In general 3rd gen has way better vocals with people like Wendy from Red Velvet, Baekhyun from EXO, Eunkwang from Btob, Yuju from Gfriend, Wheein from Mamamoo, Jungkook from BTS, D.O from EXO, Ken from Vixx, Taeil from NCT, Youngjae from GOT7, Rosé from Blackpink, Chen from EXO, Solar from Mamamoo, Jay B from GOT7, Daehyun from B.A.P, Kihyun from Monsta X, Solji from Exid and Seungyoon from Winner. While 4th gen just have Ningning from Aespa, Jongho from Ateez, Goeun from Purple Kiss and Lily from Nmixx as very good vocals.
@@vixxexo6855Not to nitpick, but Monday from Weeekly is quite good, as is Jo Yuri, who’s a little above average. Lesser known are Haram from Billie, who I’m not very familiar with but everything I’ve seen from her seems quite good, and Nayul from 12dal, a true nugu who is very technically skilled.
Also, I’m not sure I’d consider Rose one of 3rd gen’s best when Jihyo and Seulgi are both better than her. Just my opinion though.
@@maddieontop974Well, in the music and stage department, BlackPink is an incredible over rated group in all senses.
@@maddieontop974 p1harmony and treasure has good vocal lines too imo
Truthfully I'm not very familiar, but my knowledge is that Treasure's vocalists are pretty much standard- they don't excel but they're good and get the job done well, and Keeho from Piwon is their best. He seems slightly above average, but I really haven't seen enough material to judge properly.@@143szns
Ive been wondering what all this training actually is cause 90% of these idols arent showing it
Whenever I hear them say “we practiced so hard”, I’m pretty sure 80% of it is dancing
Especially their vocals because even I can sing better than them!
I’m also livid about how fans these days have made it as if good vocals are old school. This is what happens when we get used to normalizing mediocrity. Fans will die defending their faves even knowing they’re mid.
HEAVY on the harmonizing opinion
My top groups are Ateez, Dreamcatcher, XG, Red Velvet, Rolling Quartz, and Astro and I am so happy for that! It’s wild to hear singers singing is considered outdated these days 😂😂
I have a bit of a side tangent on the live vocals v lip syncing which you brought up.
I think that the rise of social media and the rise of lip sync in Kpop happening in tandem is not on accident. Because live vocalists can have something unexpected happen when they perform- they can go off key, miss a note, have a voice crack or lose their voice. EVEN those well trained and naturally skilled can have a bad day. And in 2nd gen and earlier social media wasn’t as prevalent so those mess ups weren’t spread around as quickly.
Now every single missed note lives on Twitter and tiktok on repeat to be viewed again and again.
I think companies are not willing to risk their idols reputations for the chance of a bad note or a shaky performance. So they’d rather use lip sync to maintain an idols perfect image- even if it’s fake.
This is why I enjoy groups like aespa & NMIXX. Everyone in the group can sing & support. Lily, imo, is the current top girl group singer of 4th gen! She has an awesome technique & sings great live followed by Haewon. NingNing, & Winter are amazing too but I hope SM lets them sing live more often because when they do they NAIL it!
Honestly, why do k-pop stans tolerate the bar being lowered for idols in ALL aspects?
The thin vocal ability.
The bad rapping.
The lack of musical diversity and uniqueness amongst groups.
The lyricism.
The stiff or outright piss poor performance.
Often times groups will be years into the game and still haven’t improved on a single one of those things because as long as these companies dye someone’s hair blue and slap a sickening visual on it the fans will keep eating it up.
One of the biggest reasons I can’t get into most boy and girl groups 3 gen and later is that if fans closed their eyes they can slide any member of any other group and nobody would notice a thing. There might also be more idol soloists if companies actually cared about uniqueness and skill, but in a group everybody gets to blend their 10-20% together to make something that resembles a cohesive pool of entertainment worthy talent.
This song is great, this song is bad- no sweetie all these songs sound the same. The vocalists and rappers are indistinguishable from each other and the music is copy+paste. I shouldn’t have to look down at my streaming app to see who is who. BTS sounds like BTS. Red Velvet sounds like Red Velvet. Dreamcatcher sounds like Dreamcatcher.
Lip syncing is tolerated because the overall bar for k-pop is lowered and nobody has to actually try to raise it.
true. for kpop fans the only thing that matters is entertainment. the idols have to be entertaining, have a funny persona and of course fulfill their need for fan service of all kind. music is an extra and many fans don't even listen to it lol.
having to listen to a song 6 times to start liking must be a struggle.
I agree with everything you said. Like I am genuinely going to create a document to put performances that are actually live because when I want to see a live performance of something I hate combing through the search results to find one where they're actually singing. For some groups, it's damn near impossible to find one. And while I love a lot of kpop dances I wish more of them would be choreographed to accommodate live vocals. Or at least there should be more performances where the group is just standing still and singing.
omg WHAT CHILL KILL WAS INCREDIBLE and i didn’t even listen to red velvet before LITERALLY WHAT OMG
i’m still listening and am a fan now too
Honestly, it is such a refreshing thing to hear live vocals and people who actually want to sing 😢❤
@@soyadrink9831 wendy's parts take me to heaven :') dont get me started on the mv too. but lmk if u have any other RV recommendations! im new :')
i could understand if they were bringing all the idols up to some (reasonable) basic level of singing where they're good but no further and then after that point focusing on the dancing but like the fact that people will literally say singing doesn't matter when we are discussing MUSICAL artists??? "not everyone can sing!!!" like girl ok then. don't be a singer. ???? leave???? it's not like we put a gun to their head and said they have to sing. they can pursue a career in dancing if they want. they don't have to be singers in the first place. they can get a different job.
also the thing is the bad training shows with the dancing too. kpop idols are generally good at dancing FOR IDOLS. which is a pretty depressing thing when you consider they literally lose sleep and their entire social lives over training. literally any student who takes dance as a hobby but is also serious about it could easily outdance them. idols are lacking in technique and in strength and the ones who aren't are exceptions.
and tbh i'm not sure about red velvet harmonizing. i'm sure they do it but pretty much every example i've seen is like... members recording multiple tracks so they can harmonize with themselves on the studio version. i've seen so many "great harmonies" from red velvet that end up just being like 12 layers of wendy's voice and literally no one else. even "vocally strong" groups like rv can't harmonize because there are only 1 or 2 members who are vocally strong to start with. then you run into similar issues as asking a bunch of weak vocalists to harmonize with each other. recording it in studio shouldn't be hard and they don't sing live anymore anyway
FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT!! I never understood the hype over this whole « Red velvet are the queens of harmonizing » when they never harmonize while live singing. Or sometimes it’s only Wendy doing a high harmony while the 4 others sing in unison. Or maybe it’s just Little Mix that raised my standards…
I find the switch up very interesting because a couple years ago, if an idol was caught lip-syncing there was an immediate response about the inability of that idol to sing. People would be PISSED, and it was like fuel for fan wars, "at least my idol can sing/ my idol sings live so their better than yours". I remember just saying "x idol can't sing, they lip-sync" would cause so many fights and i wasn't even deep in fandoms like that to see it .
I find the lack of singing ability incredibly annoying and outrageous; can you imagine how pissed off I was watching I-land and they spent the whole show focused on performance, when barely any of those boys could barely hold a note? (I stopped watching at ep7).
Dancing is definitely a major part of it but at the end of the day, SING! You are singers, i expect there to be singing and harmonization. I am here for your singing at the end of the day. I am buying your albums to listen to the music i enjoy, the pretty pictures and pcs are just a bonus imo.
And i find their companies silly for this because are you not embarrassed? Your singers CAN'T SING, their main selling point and they can't even do that? I wouldn't want that to be my reputation.
Well they still are offended if someone says “x idol can’t sing, they lipsync” but for different reasons. Back then, it was prolly because ppl know these idols can sing and haters are wrong. But now, it’s because they know these idols can’t sing and “haters” are right but they don’t wanna admit it. Kinda sad if you ask me
It's not just Kpop..it's the industry overall. Talent in Singing is secondary..it's all about looks, over-reliance on personality and brand possibility, audience retention .
In my opinion NMIXX are the only 4th gen group with good and unique vocals and amazing harmonies. I Hope Kiss of Life can be the same for 5th Gen.
i think purple kiss has unique vocals as well
I'm someone with absolutely no background in singing (I was a dancer for 15 years but my only singing experience was my brief time in my primary school choir before I was told to 'just mouth the words', so I hope that explains just how little background I have in singing). I agree with a lot that was said in this video (less talk-singing, less lip syincing, more harmonizing, etc) but I did want to add/mention something.
I believe that there is a difference bewteen being a 'singer' and being and 'idol', much like there is a difference between being a 'dancer' and an 'idol'. Being an idol is not just about singing (and/or dancing); rapping, acting, variety/interview skills, modeling, acting, visuals, etc are all part of what being an 'idol' is as singing is only one part of what makses and 'idol' and idol. That's why many groups have posistions: the 'best singer', the 'rapper', but then you also have the other members that are the 'visuals' or 'the [insert non-Korean language] speaker', the member that was added for their variety skills, or members that are added to match a group concept/gimmick, etc. Part of what makes Kpop work is the fact that there are Sub Vocalists to support the Main/Lead Vocalists, much like how there are Main/Lead Dancers there to support non-dance-line members. I understand that great live singers are essential within the music industry, but I always associated Kpop with the 'entertainment industry' rather than just the 'music industry' as a lot of what makes Kpop ... well, 'Kpop' is not just the singing/music but also the dances, fan cafes, variety shows, fancams, photocards, fanmeets, and now more recently things such as TikTok challenges.
I think that the current state of Kpop Vocals is a reflection of how the Kpop Industry leans more into 'entertainment' rather than just 'music'. Although, I would love to see live singing make a comeback in kpop 💙
You are actually right, I am an old K-Pop fan and at the begining I looked a lot about why they are "idols" and not only singers.
"Idols" are entretainers but at the same time they are role models and cheers for teens and children. They are about to portrait the values and principles of Korean society and, of course, to entretain trought many activities: that is why SM, the company that actually refined the concept of idol, train in acting, music, modeling, as comedians and for being host on many variety of entretainment options.
The "idols" developed on the time of TV so they have growth to have a huge visual appeal but still they have or used to have division: there were actors idols like Krystal of f(x) or Minho of Shinne, there were singer idols like Taeyeon or Jessica of SNSD and dancer idols as Hyoyeon of SNSD and Shindong of SuJu, both belong in an "idol" group but their job was always dance but still prooved support in the vocal department, and there were entreteiners idols that specialized in variety shows like Leeteuk of SuJu and Sunny of SNSD but there were too idols who did musical teather, advertisings or modeling, I know the ones of "idols" groups because I followed them and they were not that big back then.
Now it seems that with BP the "idol" figures started to merge in only one and they want to make "super" idols that do everything like Woonyoung of IVE or Yoona of SNSD and the girls of Black Pink. The problem is that they started to forget the music and singing department as the video pointed.
i would go so far as to even say not every kpop idol needs to be a vocalist, like, its fine if dome idols can't belt their hearts out or hit the highest note, not everyone can be that singer, and i appreciate idols with unique tone! but at the very least they need to have a good hold on what their voices CAN do, stay on pitch and, for the love of god, SING LIVE-
I’d say singing isn’t important because that’s not what Kpop is selling. They’re selling idols, not singers. That’s the reason why. Dancing is a direct correlation to performing. Singing is as well, but it’s just not as important. Especially for groups. You mention singing as we listen but most times were listening to albums that have gone through post-production.
The landscape of an idol and what’s being sold has changed.
I don't think it has even changed that much. Being an idol has never been about singing. Being a singer is about singing. Being an idol is about performing a sometimes musical persona for people to form a parasocial bond with. Her opening statements sound so bizarrely obtuse, the only way it makes sense is if Korea doesn't recognize singers as a seperate profession , but they do! they value it more than being an idol lmao! And it predates the idol profession also! Idols were never a replacement or even just a new way to be a singer. It's a profession that exist alongside it and often overlaps with it but has never been focused on producing Singers. If you're good at singing you can just become a regular singer. The reason the idol industry exist alongside that much more respected path is because it has always sold a different product.
Just cause your fave happens to be incredibly good at singing doesn't mean that was the primary reason to debute them, frankly it never is. But it would be if they were just seeking out a regular singer profession. . That's why the industry could so quickly and sharply focus on spectacle and video when the technology improved. They never aimed at creating Celine Dion's, just likeable personas that get people to spend money. Sometimes you gotta take time to understand what the product is selling before complaining about what it is doing wrong.
This video is the equivalent of complaining that Shonen mangas never center women. Like, shonen means "young boy" in Japanese. What did you expect? Like it is cool when it gives us some well rounded female characters but it' silly to argue they should be centered in YOUNG BOYS stories. Like just read different mangas, by authors who specifically sell what you want to buy, instead of complaing that an author with a specifc target audience isn't catering enough to the people outside of it. Uplifting Shojos and Joseis do more for female rep than asking clueless men high on Naruto to write women. And it's the same with kpop, except you don't even need to uplift anything cause Singers are already more known and better respected than idols! You don't even gotta do anything. The industry and its fans know what it is selling, do YOU?
And for the record, this is coming from someone who rarey listens to Kpop specifically because I think the products lack vocals and originality in the music department. I just know also that when I need that, I just look somewhere else. If an industry keeps making loads of money by not making things to my taste they aren't "doing it wrong" and forgetting what they are "supposed" to be aboutlol. Not every musical product is about singing and the quality of live vocals, like her argument about why we listen to albums is weird. I listen to Ryuichi Sakamoto and Hiroyuki Sawano everyday but have no idea what their voices sound like?? Music isn't just about vocal ability, ESPECIALLY NOT IN THE 21CENTURY like come on. And to act as if that is inherently a problem that needs fixing is very pretentious. Again, not all niches have to be for you, it doesn't mean they are failing at anything.
The lipsync one, the groups i stan are B.A.P, SVT, Ateez and Dreamcatcher
Lets just say im very proud of my idols for their LACK of lipsyncing and their obvious HATE of doing it 😂
Omggggg, finally someone mention B.A.P ❤ its rare for people to mention them tho every time topic of live performances came out 😢 B.A.P were so good in singing live ❤❤❤
in my opinion I think hearing someones live and raw vocals makes there performance much more entertaining its makes it feel like a real performance and not some idols moving there mouths a bit
This is why I will always appreciate EXO
Shoutout to KIOF and NMixx for understanding the assignment and reminding me why I fell in love with Kpop to begin with. (And aespa + Billlie to an extent)
yesss say it louderrr. love this comment
like if u can dance good but the way choreographies r getting harder and more idols r lip syncing, there r fans who say ' oh their dance is hard so they cannot sing' like then just be a dance group if u do not have those skills...
I have said it before and I will say it again, Gen 3 has very few truly talented vocalists. Mamamoo and Red Velvet are the only 2 GG that spring to mind. I don't know enough about the BG from Gen 3 so I cannot comment.
I don't think the artists are to blame and attacking them online does them no favours. Their respective companies are to blame, because they have not pushed their idols to improve consistently. If you look at the growth of Mamamoo and Red Velvet from their respective debuts to present day, they have improved consistently year on year, singing and harmonising as a group.
As a Luvie I accept I'm going to be bias, but even Irene and Yeri, traditionally Sub Vocalists have improved their singing, which is a credit to SM (words I never thought I would ever say).
This video is excellent at highlighting the decline in the standard of vocalists in the 4th and 5th generation which is mirrored by the decline in their respective companies performance, both financially and reputationally.
👸👸👸👸👸 ❤💛💙💚💜
ok so on the topic of lipsync, i think it's acceptable if it is to preserve an idol's vocal health. i believe lily of nmixx has been somewhat sick during promotions for dash so she has been lipsyncing during music show performances, which i think is fine. and during the circle chart music awards, belle of kiss of life looked and sounded like she lipsynced some of her high notes and her "big" high note at the end of shhh was cut. i stand by the fact that lipysyncing is acceptable if it is to preserve an idol's vocal health if they are or have been sick and some singing could damage their voices. if an idol can sustainably and healthily sing, however, they absolutely should be singing live.
nmixx and purple kiss are my favorite vocalist groups of the „newer“ gens
This generation has gotten great at dancing but at the expense of the vocals. And it sucks bc at the end of the day, they're supposed to be musicians. Sure watching performances is great, but most of my musical experience is listening to music as opposed to watching live performances. If you can't sing, don't expect me to be a proper stan bc the music just isn't worth my time.
this reminds me of TripleS, I do actually really love them dispite of this cause the music just sounds good, but I almost fell out of my seat when I realized NONE of the members of AAA sing the high notes in 'Generation'. It's literally the queen herself, Adora, doing all the hard parts 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
This is a real no shade question with groups like newjeans who don't heavy vocal songs like heavy heavy ballads, cause they do lofi type songs is it really wrong for agencies to not focus on vocal training. Because I'm sure agencies have a made image for the group.
true, if a company decides not to have their group have a vocal heavy discography it’s easy to get away with having average singers
I still remember hearing two of the CLC girls (I can’t remember which ones) harmonize for a couple seconds during the bridge of Me and it instantly gave me chills because moments of harmonizing are so rare in kpop. I love Red Velvet for the same reason you do, their harmonies are really what dreams are made of.
On topic of harmonizing, I think songwriting got very streamlined too - my fav pre-chorus of all time is f(x)'s Rum Pum Pum Pum, for a while I was baffled that we weren't seeing more of concepts like that, especially with how popular Pink Tape was, but your video kind of makes me realise that for kpop companies it may just not be worth the effort to go out of the box and in the end even "experimental" projects go back in to the line with the rest of industry and just keep shooting out content that they think will just sound nice to general public.
I would also add one more thing though, as extension to tolerance argument - modern day kpop choreos are just not made with live singing in mind and choreographers know they can get away with it because people are just used to lip syncing and put more attention to other aspects of performance. And btw no, hard choreo doesn't mean you cannot sing live, if you want good example look at Alexas stages like Do or Die or Wonderland, they are still dynamic but they are also paced with singing in mind, where currently a lot of choreos like idols to highlight harder singing notes with dynamic moves, often leaving idols out of breath and making the singing very hard.
I totally agree with you. For me the singing/vocals is the most important element. In order my favorites are 2NE1, Girls Generation, and Mamamoo. I love their singing. 2NE1 and Mamamoo have had performances where the just sing and hold your attention. Girls Generation has great vocal skills and wonderful group harmonies. I judge groups by watching live performances which shows their real skills. I have songs I love but I did not love the mv or live choreography. I will take a longer look at Red Velvet base on your analysis. Thank You.
you're gonna love red velvet 🫶🏾
SNSD are the blueprints
@@imiterlude I agree Red Velvet has lovely harmonies. Still working through their live performances. Found this "Killing Voice 2NE1" which has clips from liver performances. ruclips.net/video/gGOKou_Vg54/видео.html You might be interested. Thank you.
@@mayiluvu3 I love SNSD and 2NE1, but you can't really compare them. Its like comparing an apple and a tomato. They are both fruits and both excellent but they certainly are not the same.
I agreed with you, since my ult is a vocal heavy group 'BTOB', they give me a high standard towards other groups. They have great songs, 4 great vocalists(2 tenor + 2 baritone),2 great rappers(different rap style),they can harmonized like no other and they can do riffs and runs too. Their concert didn't have extravagant props bcs their heavenly vocals performance + live band is enough. They always singing live, and they really well known with that in South Korea. Singing live is also part of training to be a better singer. Even after 12years in industry,some of them still going to vocal classes.
Lot of idols these days need more vocal training for sure. What happened to strong vocalists. Im so tired of the lipsyncing and loud backtrack, i dont mind it but every performance???? Its so boring, my favorite performances are when you can actually hear the idol singing. Personally i dont care for voice cracks, vocal mistakes, like I dont want perfection. I just want to hear singing. And why are idols lipsyncing when they are standing or sitting down????? Like why?? WHERE IS THE TALENT THESE DAYS. My favorite group is Ive but all the members needed more vocal training. If nmixx, aespa, ateez can dance and sing live, then what's the problem. They should really lessen the dancing because it's really difficult to dance a hard choreography and sing.
Honestly I’m wouldn’t be as upset if idols lipsync every once in a while. I find that since these newer gens are so dance focused that live singing to them is just secondary. I mean I’d be out of breath too doing all the kicks, flips and tricks these idols are doing these days.
You only spoke facts, I had this porblem with the Kpop industry for YEARS, thank you so much for bringing attention to this topic! I wish more Kpop youtubers talked about this
It's funny and pity that NMIXX literally don't fit into any of your complaints, yet they are much less popular than those lip-sync groups. Talents and skills in idols had became less and less important since the 2nd/3rd gen.
Just look at how much lip-syncing SM and HYBE idols have done on music shows in the recent years. Red Velvet haven't sang live even for once on music shows since Queendom, it's so absurd. Yet the two HYBE girl groups are very popular and successful. So from the company's perspective, why do they need proper training anyways? They even seldom sang live and they could become a hit. It's those kpop stans approving lip-syncing, making k-pop less and less about talent and live.
It’s not about kpop stan approve or not, bc they can send all messages and trucks and companies are the ones that decide if a group sing or not live
Also why are you complaining about nmixx popularity when it’s not people’s fault that they are not attractive, you can consider them the most talented artist on earth and if people don’t care about their persona they will not support them
It’s easy, other groups click with fans and general public, nmixx didn’t and if they weren’t from jype they would be flopping harder than what they are
“If they weren’t from JYPE they would be flopping harder than they are”. NMIXX are not flopping. NMIXX not being as popular as some of there peers is not flopping. Flopping is when a group can’t outperform their OWN achievements. NMIXX have zero issues outdoing their previous achievements.
A 3 million seller group, with 2 EPs that received triple platinum certification from circle chart, 2 songs that entered the billboard 200, has over 4.6 million Spotify monthly listeners and songs with over 100mil streams cannot be flops. Be serious.
And you can literally apply your statement to any big 4 group. You know how many groups there are that have MORE talent and BETTER music than some groups from the big 4 that aren’t popular? Majority of groups from the big 4 besides BTS/SVT are not guaranteed success just bcuz they have GP friendly music/talent. Having a company with a lot of money and impact to back you is the reason for most big 4 K-pop groups success.
@@Slayoon nmixx don’t outdo their own achievements, they just have to 1 achievements every comeback that looks like they are doing better
For example this comeback, they didn’t have more sales neither the first day or the first week, didn’t have their song in the top 50 of melon even when a whole week of promo, and didn’t have any big debut on international charts, but in this comeback they had 3 wins so people like you think they are doing “better”💀
Anyways you can be blind all you want but the reality is nmixx is a flop
@@afeliz2642 “Didn’t have any big debut on international charts”:
NMIXX 2nd EP "Fe3O4: Break" debuted on this week's Billboard Top Current Album Sales at #6! It's their highest entry on the chart surpassing 'expérgo' (#12).
JYPE shipments were slow which is why NMIXX didn’t outsell their previous comeback sells. This has been a talked about issue with other groups outside JYPE as well. Like AESPA for example their sales dropped significantly compared to their previous work. So with your logic are AESPA also “flops”??? If you say yes then you’re beyond delusional.
@@afeliz2642 Dash didn’t chart on Melon due to what fans and k netizens believe to be sabotage. Everyone’s been saying for years how Melon has been sabotaging JYPE artists ever since JYP called them out for manipulating their charts.
NMIXX are charting on Apple Music Korea, RUclips Music Korea and other platforms HARDER to chart on compared to Melon. This happens with other JYPE groups too. It is hard for JYPE groups to chart on Melon or chart high on it. Not often do they chart well on that platform.
K netizens are discussing the legitimacy of Melon. Which we already know they’re not legit given the times they were called out for chart manipulation. K netizens pointed out how other artists with lower placements on every other streaming platform/chart are randomly charting/charting high only on Melon.
I remember when Yuna did a cover of Jennie’s You & Me. When she was accused of lipsyncing, fans were defending her and gave her a pass just cuz she’s hot and I was like what?
finally your uploading more.. its been so long 😅
aespa is one of the only 4th gen ggs I can listen to, because there's a distinction between each member's vocals, and they're all at least decent. not JUST meeting the line for the consideration of "decent vocals", but nice RnB/hip hop vocals suitable for the genres they've explored so far. maybe it's just me, but I can't stand hearing juvenile, monotone vocals, especially if the production already isn't interesting or well put to me.
Exactly and that's the reason twice has my ultimate respect. I was in awe when I saw them in Germany. Everyone was singing live for more than 2 hours while also dancing their hearts out and especially Jihyo giving it her all performance wise while proving why she is in the top 3 greatest vocalists of her gen.
This is also the reason SM groups lost all of my respect through the years because the lipsyncing has become so permanent with their groups. From rookies to well establish groups and artists that have proved they can sing, nowadays their reliance on lipsync gets to the point of mockery to their fans who are paying to see them
you are just a delulu
Twice sing live with a laud backtrack, that’s why jihyo, nayeon and jeon needs to be louder than it, but all the others literally just don’t sing or sing so low to the point it just the backtrack
Also why would you don’t respect a group vocal abilities when it’s the company’s fault not them, when they sing live they end twice so…
? Do you really think anyone can sing live for two hours and dance their heart out. Even Olympicl-level endurance athletes can't do that.
Twice sings...wtf...total lipsync
Iu can sing for 5 hrs
@@himankmaheshwari2097 I wouldn't class IU as an all-singing, all-dancing K-pop idol.
Thank you for this video! I used to sing in a chorus in high school (and am now a crappy car karaoke singer who’s voice hasn’t been warmed up properly since, lol 😂) and I’m just a music nerd in general, so seeing this so commonly happen in k-pop in the last few years has made me less interested in it. I see k-pop fans and k-tubers always saying that vocals don’t matter as much as visuals do. These companies focus way too much on that now that fans even think it’s normal to disregard vocal talent too. They say their favorite group is super talented, but that group is doing the same thing 30+ other groups are doing (which is everything you mentioned in this video). Red Velvet is the perfect example of being well rounded in everything. Concept diversity, production/musical diversity, great ability to memorize choreo and do it well, and above all, they have incredible vocalists who can harmonize beautifully together. K-pop companies gotta put their priorities in the right place and stop focusing on looks and aesthetics so much to where vocal ability is overshadowed. I’m very glad you said this 👏🏻
Heavily agree on all of these!! I’ve always loved singing and I’ve done musical theatre for most of my life. I’ve been getting more and more into kpop and it’s jarring having live performances be so hard to find and sometimes harder to listen to. Very rarely am I satisfied with a live performance and it can really diminish the listening experience knowing the idols didn’t write the songs they perform and can’t sing them well (that’s why groups like (G)I-DLE, NMixx and Mamamoo interest me more alongside second gen groups).
I greatly miss vocal-heavy songs and one that I fell in love with (I AM by IVE) let me down a bit in encores with how some members struggle to sing it.
Tbh, I have already started complaining about truly proficient vocals dissipating since the 3rd gen. 2nd gen was the generation with the most amount of strong vocalists. There were quite some female vocalists that could give Taeyeon, for example, a noteworthy competition. Like she has always been a proficient vocalist, just the top vocalists back then were either her level or higher. To name a few: Ailee, former Kiss&Cry Dia, Davichi Haeri, former Seeya Yeonji, former CSJH Lina, Fx Luna, Apink Eunji, former 15& Jimin, Son Seungyeon, Uji, Hyorin, Shannon Williams, etc. After gen 3 truly took over, only Wendy of Red Velvet could be Taeyeon’s noteworthy competition. Even Mamamoo can’t come close. Even gen 1 being the very first gen, still trying to figure out what worked and what didn’t, had way more proficient vocalists to offer than gen 3. 3Mix of Twice are at SNSD Sunny and Tiffany’s level at best. The vast majority of Kpop idols in gen 4th and 5th lack vocal basics like breath support and constantly choosing stylistic choices over proper skills.
tbh for the longest time seeing how lipsyncing has become a norm in kpop, i have thoughts that it also might be that idols now are scared of people's reactions especially on social media for years in case if they sing live and have one off day and have one voice crack. Like kpop stans have not left jimin alone for that one voice crack as if he doesn't have 200+ performances of him delivering amazing vocals. Like this thought that idols and even companies are more cautious regarding this and keeping that perfect visually aesthetic idol image always pops up in my mind.
we love u aespa and nmixx
Agreed with all these points as someone who also has a background in singing. I just hope this “trend” ends soon and we get back some heavy vocals and not just from 2 or 4 groups like more than that. 😢
Among 5th gen, I think Kiss of Life is bringing that back
I've said this before and I will say this again, I hope all the K-Pop fans who would like to hear idols who sing live and do it well check out P-Pop (Philippine pop) idol groups. They ALL sing live and they all have the foundations for good singing! Please check out BINI (I highly recommend their Wish Bus performance of "Huwag Muna Tayong Umuwi" or their dance-and-vocal practice for "Lagi" as a starting point), ALAMAT (their raw vocal performance of "Maharani" on Rappler? SO GOOD), SB19 ("I Want You" on Wish Bus is a good starting point), or G22 ("Babalik" on Wish Bus is great). I could actually name so many more groups, but seriously, P-Pop groups have really solid live vocals, raps that actually make sense (and most of them are self-written), and great dancing.
4:00 I am honestly surprised you said that. I really think Haewon and Lily are the only ones who can keep up with the vocalists from 2nd/3rd gen. I mean lily sang with Ailee and was able to do it fine.
5:02 I mean Soyeon did reveal that their company was forcing them to sing a certain way
1:12 True . Nmixx has amazing vocalists . Aespa has good vocals but they rarely sing live.
1:12 True . You should either be able to do both or know how to sing . Lia gets unnecessary hate. This is why I like that even though Gidle doesn't have difficult dances , they sing live 90% times . Skz , Svt , Ateez Mamamoo all sing live . Le sserafim lipsync a lot . So do NewJeans and when they do they are not as stable except Hanni and Hyein. People say that they have difficult dances but they absolutely don't. The most stable in Le sserafim are Yunjin and Chaewon and Garam when she was in the group.
1:12 True . Some people say that they do it because they have difficult choreos .
So 1st-3rd gen just doesn't exist now ? Blackpink has started to lipsync since the past 2-3 years . Earlier they didn't. Seventeen, Ateez , Skz , Mamamoo ,Nmixx , Dreamcatcher etc. don't/rarely lipsync .
Dance is not an excuse. Choreos can be jumpy but it's their job to sing. Le sserafim lipsynced at MMA 2022 , people said it's because to the dance break (Which wasn't difficult at all) . NewJeans have easy choreos yet they still lipsync a lot . Hanni sings live the most. Minji lipsyncs the most . Don't even get me started on IVE .
I agree. It saddens me to know that alot of kpop fans do not realize what their idols’s main job is, neither do the idols themselves. So glad I get to see a comment section full of brancells for once.
1:12 Exactly. SM training is the best in the vocals and dance category. YG accepts people who are already talented to just train them a bit more to get more stylistic tone .Hybe and Jyp are the worst at this .
Okay so i hate the lip syncing. lets start then i feel like slowly kpop is becoming a visual industry rather than music industry. in many groups the most loved member is not the one who actually has the talent to stay in the industry rather its a member who's visual is according to the korean beauty standards. i honestly hate korean beauty standard. i don't understand their level of craze for visual like what's the hype which puts a lot of people in pressure as they think they have present themselves according to the standard. like after some age all the external beauty or makeup gonna vanish. what stays is a person's internal beauty. i feel like people should be judged on basis of their personality rather than their visuals. i mean of course some people are their who are mesmerising but i feel like that then their whole personality revolves around that. that's why we can never tell how idols act off camera. because they are forced to present some certain image. people don't realise this but kpop is a music industry and music is the main point of that. and not being able to sing live then i want to ask what they are trained for years how to act cute like that's nonscence. i know alot of people with not gonna agree with me but as a human i have my freedom of speech and i am gonna put out my opinions. and this next thing which i am gonna say it can may be me just over thinking but yeah i am just gonna say it. i have alot videos of little korean babies and most of the time the questions the girls ask are am i pretty like at such age how they are focusing so much on these types of things. rather they should be taught to treat each other with kindness. the korean beauty standards are extremely high and ridiculous and what they gonna achieve if they fit the standards are they getting some medal or trophy for that. and one thing i don't understand is what is the definition of the word pretty. why some people are considered pretty and some are not what they have done wrong. i strongly believe that god has created each one of us with equal love and we should be confident about ourselves rather than running behind to fit these standards. we should do things at our own pace. one message i wanted to spread was self love. and that we should be kind to each other. thank u for reading. and if u don't like these comment then just mind your own business. because i strongly believe these points and nobody's gonna change that. hope everyone out their knows their worth and stays safe. spread love❤🩹
I agree with everything you said to some extent. The lack of vocalists in 4th/5th gen is very apparent and really sad, there is many groups with barely any great vocalists, in my opinions out of 4th/5th gen the only groups with great vocalists are for girl groups, Aespa, Kiss Off Life, Purple Kiss, and obviously being the best out of all groups NMIXX, for boy groups the only one that comes to mind is ZEROBASEONE as they have 3 members capable of being main vocalists and 4 lead/almost lead vocalists. Also, for the lypsyncing i think the main reason is how hard it is to sing while dancing at the same time as well as the lack of training on singing live, if a group is standing or sitting lipsyncing should be off the table completely, but during a performance i think that its ok to lipsync sometimes but if its always then they shouldnt even put the mics anymore and just turn into a dance group. And during concerts, no group should lipsync cause no one should pay those huge amount just to see someone mouth the words to their songs, and during concerts it should be completely live with a faint backtrack
1:12 Trueee.
All Night (IVE) just sounded bad because of the chorus. Red velvet is amazing.
Great video! You speak my mind!! Especially as a singer it must be so frustrating and confusing. When I first got into kpop I was confused af. The lack of vocal skills, but idols get praised for their dancing or looking pretty!? 😅 I like listening to Kim Woojin as a 4th gen vocalist!
Yes!! 💙 Our guy
I love how unapologetic your opinions are
What are your thoughts on chill kill by red velvet ,I think its their best album, the b sides shine like crazy!
tvxq 5members and jyj were the only groups who were master at harmonizing and even tho all of the 5 members had really unique voices from each other they harmonize the best it's insane how rarely new gen fans know about that and they never respect older more talented idols too
1:12 Agreed . Some people say that Spicy by Aespa suits Itzy more . I disagree as the only ones who will be able to get the vocal tone of the song right are Lia and Yeji and maybe Chaeryeong. 3rd gen groups are still making songs that need more vocals but it is very uncommon in the 4th and 5th gen with a few exceptions here and there.
Nmixx is probably one of the only current generation that can sing very well, dance, and give a performance.
recently i group i like(d?) took it a step further - they kept the singer from the demo track in the intro and chorus! not just background vocals, but like the main/only vocal. i couldn't believe it, they didn't even credit her as a vocalist or ft. in the video description :( i'm glad my other faves - Billlie, Kiss of Life, NMixx sing live more often than not.
Which group is this? Pulling a Jennifer Lopez
I agree with most things, and just wanna say that it irks me to no end when stans of certain 4th gen groups act like their faves invented singing, when their voices are average at best. It's really annoying seeing "this is why xyz group is underrated, nobody appreciates their vocals, they are industry leader vocalists" in every comment section, but then you listen to the songs and are like... What. Where. This is exactly the same as every other 4th gen group. What are you talking about.
I so so agree with everything said in this video! The issues you mentioned are some of the reasons why as soon as I realized what k-pop is about I dropped the idea of becoming a multistan (no hate to anyone who considers themself one tho 💜). We really need more people to point out how big of a problem current standards for vocalists are. Also I have some other examples for:
a good vocal group that is capable of vocal heavy songs & harmonies: Mamamoo (istg they're too underrated)
and an artist who gets/got a lot of unreasonable backlash just because their voice is unique: Jimin - actually, when I think about it, there is way too many misconceptions about Bangtan's whole absolutely amazing vocal line but that's a topic for another time & possibly not everyone is ready for it.
Anyway, stay safe y'all
The excuses stans give as to why idols lipsync are so baffling to me. "They're dancing to hard choreography, singing live would be too hard!" Like what? Girl, no. Hard choreography is not an excuse when an idol can't even sing their 5.3 seconds of lines for a music show. Especially when back in the day, all idols were expected to sing live, not just the ultra talented ones. Even the weakest vocalists in gen 2 could at least hold a tune while dancing. There. Is. No. Excuse.
If you like vocals in k-pop, and vocally challenging songs, I think you’d love Dreamcatcher live stages! Siyeon and Yoohyeon are outstanding, but other members like SuA and Handong are also great imo. You also make a good point because every time I see people say SuA is an incredible singer, they make sure to clarify that she’s their “main dancer,” as if that somehow means she’s not supposed to be as good because of that role? It’s really weird.
Heeseung is an amazing vocalist... i watched his video on leemujin service and he's crazy
I understand your takes, but there's some things I'd add. First, Let's not forget that K-pop is an industry so the goal is to achieve the most profits with the least costs. Companies would not improve the vocals if they make profits with mediocre songs. Second, songs aren't just pieces of art where talent matters, songs are something you can relate to, feel happy or sad, want to dance or sing, etc. We are far away from times where ballads were the most popular songs. So a catchy and repetitive summer bop is already a good song for what was made for, even though the execution wasn't perfect as a piece of art. All of the above isn't much of a choice for idols, but to companies who are playing on safe ground and producing what is currently popular amongst audiences.
I hate how some fans get so defensive over the lip syncing discussion...like damn, this is what kpop is supposed to be, this is what kpop has been sold and portrayed as : people who sing AND dance at the same time.
I'm sorry for expecting the bare minimum, I really don't care if you get voices cracks or if you sound shaky, but at least I know that you're singing live, and I'll ALWAYS give props to that.
I'm obviously not blaming the idols, companies are most likely the ones restricting them from singing live. I don't know if it's a lack of resources or whatever but come on...
I feel like the only 4th/5th gen groups that have good truly good vocalists is Kiss of Life, Nmixx and Aespa.
Haewon and Lily of NMIXX does meet/surpass one of the idols you listed.
Kpop groups will not make it in the west if they keep lip syncing as much as they do
I kind of hoped companies would make kpop idols sing live more when the wonyoung strawberry moon controversy happened and when aespa were viral for their encore perfs for savage because it obviously means people are clamoring for live vocals. I wouldn’t really blame the idols for lip syncing, its really the companies themselves setting these groups up for hate. Y’all call it a lack of talent from idols themselves when really it is not. Idols like jongho from ateez are a beast when singing live and nmixx is setting jyp up to be the vocal company with their lives.
It's truly frustrating how K-pop groups and companies rely heavily on lip-syncing its getting so ridiculous, and it feels like a waste of time. I can understand an exception if they have packed schedules that following day, however it's getting to the point where we do not hear anything atp and just it literally diminishes the idol's talent as a whole. Kpop overall lost it's spark for singing and dance and visual is the only thing that earns a person a spot in their groups its quite honestly sad.
About style in using harmonization , it May look like more as r&b that dosent "sound" new and fresh. It like in american pop using r&b elements that was all the range in the 2000 and 2010 sound nostalgic or dated.
But yeah I also find the just relay singing a little bit weird in the begining.
i feel like these days in kpop’s 4th/5th gen u tend to see more “all rounder” members in groups- wherein no real positions are assigned and everyone is Just Decent at rap, dance, and singing. performance and looks seem to matter more n more to companies lol.
personally however i’d much rather have idols that are _actually good & passionate at what they do_ rather than Just Okayish, ykwim?
a lot of the time idols just want to be that: idols. they like the image associated with it rather than what it should be about: music. there’s a total lack of musicians or music passionate people in the industry
Class:y is a very underrated 4th gen group that is vocally gifted
you’re so right about exceptional singers from previous generations like where are the lunas and changmins of 4th and 5th gen?
I don't have a background in singing and I'm new to K-Pop, but this is just my opinion. Artists in general in both K-Pop and Western music are less and less just singers and more and more becoming a product that encompasses a lot of things: singing, dancing (if applicable), rapping (if applicable), social media presence, charisma, looks, relatability, etc. Because we have easier access to artists the demands consumers have of them are more broad and there is less weight on single aspects, even singing.
This is most notable in Western hip-hop where lipsyncing is the norm, rappers are heavily auto-tuned and don't sound anything like in the recording. Newer viral singers are also following that trend where they are loved for their looks, social media presence etc, and they sound good in recordings (at least according to their fans) but they can barely sing live. Obviously there are exceptions like certain indie and indie-adjacent artists, singer-songwriters, etc. Even then, Taylor Swift and Olivia Rodrigo for example are good singers but they wouldn't be nearly as popular if they weren't so relatable to a lot of people and if they weren't so good at connecting with their fans.
Now to K-Pop specifically, the same things I mentioned about Western music apply but two-fold. Because K-Pop artists are seen as a product by their company, singing, dancing, fan engagement, visuals, stage presence, etc. all play a role in how successful they are. My guess is idol candidates are selected primarily on their looks and a baseline ability to sing and are primarily trained on the other skills (PR training, rapping, dancing, etc.).
This is simply the market that we live in nowadays, the standards accepted by most consumers. In today's world you don't have to be an exceptional singer to be a successful music artist. Especially in K-Pop where more and more weight is being put in aspects outside of singing. That being said I think it's a worldwide phenomenon that happens in most genres. I agree that this diminishes the integrity of music and we don't get to see that many exceptional singers who know how to harmonize, but personally I think it is what it is and K-Pop/music in general will continue to go in that direction unless something massive changes
idols seem to be performers rather than musicians.
I agree with EVEYTHING except the "singing matters more than dancing part". It would have if kpop was all about music. But kpop is also equally about performances, that's what makes kpop kpop, and sets it apart from other music industries. And hence, singing and dancing in kpop hold equal value and importance. Now you as an audience can have your own preferences, like what matters more to YOU- the music or the performances? that's honestly subjective.
But you're right about dancing mattering more than singing these days, it should be equal. One more thing, if you can only sing, you're a singer. if you can only dance, you're a dancer (not essentially a backup dancer in an insulting way cause let's not devalue talent), but if you can sing and dance both GOOD enough, THEN you're an idol. it's a hard deal but that's what auditions and training is for now isn't it. That's why we have GROUPS, some should be great dancers but decent singers, others great singers but decent dancers cause being an ace is not that easy and practical on a large scale. You're right, kpop doesn't utilize being a group properly.
(Btw I'm also trained in classical singing)
1:12 True . You should either be able to do both or know how to sing . Lia gets unnecessary hate. This is why I like that even though Gidle doesn't have difficult dances , they sing live 90% times . Skz , Svt , Ateez Mamamoo all sing live . Le sserafim lipsync a lot . So do NewJeans and when they do they are not as stable except Hanni and Hyein. People say that they have difficult dances but they absolutely don't. The most stable in Le sserafim are Yunjin and Chaewon and Garam when she was in the group.
You are so right. As an old DBSK fan and a former singer, I really do see the big difference in today's idols and those of the 2nd gen. I can recognise every voice in DBSK. These days I find little distinction between voices in groups. When you hear DBSK sing 'Love in the Ice' or Bolero' live it's amazing. They're voices are very distinct from each other but they harmonise beautifully. There are times when they sound off key but usually that's because they're trying to dance and sing at the same time. Live singing is always a risk. I guess taking risks is something companies don't want to do.
They don't even sing the chorus together anymore. And u can tell how this song was badly cut up so each individual can have a part. That one group member who's there for dancing is now terribly rapping or singing.
It's the first time when I agree with somebody in 99% 😅