As a Materials Scientist & Engineer / metallurgist, I enjoyed this hands-on practical _let's test!_ approach. I do have a few pointers though. Hardness is linked to ultimate tensile strength, or UTS. That's one of the key mechanical properties of any material, but it's not conclusive. Unless a material is fully brittle, the point where a material breaks is not the point where it starts to give. If a material has any ductility, it will yield before it breaks. Your hardness testing were useful, but not the full story. If you perform a tensile test, the first part is fully elastic. If you release the tension, the test piece will return to its original length. If you apply load to yield strength it will start to permanently deform. The "0.2% yield strength" is the ksi value (or MPa for metric folks) where, upon release, the test piece will permanently be 0.2% longer than before the test. Depending on how brittle or ductile a material is, the breaking strength (UTS) will be a bit, or actually quite a lot, higher. So while the 4200 block may appear to have a similar UTS value as the 2JZ block you tested, it doesn't tell you at what stress level a block will yield/permanently deform. It also doesn't give you another important tensile property, the A(%) value, which is elongation-until-break. Ductile cast iron will have a lower value for A(%) than cast aluminium. But hardness doesn't tell you if a material will bend/stretch/twist before it breaks, or if it shatters immediately. One more thing on your hardness tester: What you have is called a Leeb hardness tester. It infers hardness by measuring how a steel ball bounces of a surface. The angle at which you test, horizontal, vertical upwards or vertical downwards, _affects its readings!_ A high grade integrated tester may have an inclinometer build in, so it can correct for the direction in which the little ball is fired, but otherwise you have to make sure that you use the correct orientation, which typically is upright with the ball firing straight down. Also, since the device looks at bounce back, if you test on a very thin section, you will get a different reading compared to testing on a section with more mass behind it.
They have been making HUGE power with this motor in Australia for years. All that complex nonsense you wrote means nothing. 2JZ at some point moves to a billet block. Thats everything when your talking about living at thousands of HP.
@jeremywhittler8591 you missed the point. I know what those engines are capable of. This was only about what a hardness test can and can't tell you with regard to mechanical properties.
@@jeremywhittler8591 You could be a bit more polite than calling someone else's efforts "nonsense" They were providing some more insight on how the testing could've been improved since the youtuber is unfamiliar and unexperienced with the hardness tester. Nowhere did @hydrazine1000 comment on the capability of the 4.2vortec.
@@jeremywhittler8591 As far as I can tell the original point being made didn't have much to do with the engine quality so much as providing insight on testing procedures and how to get more out of testing. The individual didn't mention anything directly related to the vortec motors quality, so I'm unsure why you responded the way you did
You sound like you know your shit. I also enjoyed the Mythbusting approach of let's experiment and measure and see what's what. Your insight on how to get more objective data is invaluable. People are asking good money for this kind of advice.
My company has acquired a cylinder head and has been researching it. So far, despite the laughably small exhaust ports, the flow bench results have been promising and I am confident that we will be moving forward with development.
I've always said that power was all in your head. Yes - double meaning. ;) Look at how much power a GSXR (for example) makes with a small displacement. Awesome head design!
"Less" aftermarket support might be a better term.... BUT.... The 2JZ didn't come out of the womb with massive aftermarket support either. Give it time.
@@DrFiero fact. People forget JZ tuning didn’t take off for a pretty long time, way after RB26s. Most modified Supras used to be mostly cosmetic, often still on stock twins just with a boost upgrade etc. It’s only in the last fifteen or so years tuning really went wild with them
Brendo: not in the way it is now, not by a long shot. And even then that’s eleven years after the 2J first came out. Even in the early 2000s swapping JZs for RBs was a fairly normal thing in Japan as the RB so was much more supported. Nobody would do that now. I even owned a RB swapped JZ car
One of GM's biggest blunder was not utilizing this engine platform more, could've used it in the trucks and vans as the base engine, made a "small block" 3.2L version for use in like camaro's G8 etc... even factory turbo'd the engine
@@lieutenantdan8170 I think a crank with a touch less stroke would have better high rpm power capabilities. (Less harmonic vibrations. ) I'm already surprised they survive at the rpm's Calvin runs
I think a 3.6L atlas turbo would've been awesome for the Sigma ll V series cars, but they went with the LSA instead. Also, they could've shipped the Atlas to Australia to let them further develop the engine as a competitor to the Barra. That timeframe is when the rescission hit and GM was in shambles though. I wonder if they still have the tooling for the 4200 somewhere. I wish some automotive companies acknowledged some unfinished work in their legacy engines such as the Atlas and released all performance goodies and flywheels to connect them to later GM transmissions
@@pi55bieralso we had the already developed Buick v6 and an engine bay designed for short v6 and v8 engines, the straight six is LONG, and GM Holden cast the Buick v6 then the alloytech 2.8, 3.0, 3.2 and 3.6 v6 was assembled in Australia and sent around the world too. Straight sixes are not efficient for GM.
Vortec4200 fan from Finland here! Been watching your videos long time and motivated from those I pulled the trigger. Got myself a 4200 for 200€. Flanges for oilpan,intake,manifold and transmission are on their way. Im going to swap my E61 m54B25 with this 4200. Going to run with big turbo, Maxxecu and 8hp gearbox. In Finland I think there is no other 4200 build as the building of these engines has not arrived here. Thanks for the 4200wiki page. It is really helpfull!!
There are better European options, theres no need to import old USA engines. (Unless local scrapyard has a decent core, which is really rare.) Ontop of that, taxes and tariffs for USA made engines and parts kill every viability of the engines. Use this engine, take these parts are mainly for those who cant make power from any engine, and only succeed on following someone elses project or recommendations. You can get power out of anything, just throw a different cam and forged pistons, injectors in it, boost it and tune - it'll make power.
These engines will become expensive soon whether we like it or not. They will be expensive because of supply or demand. I'd rather have it because of demand while there is still plenty of supply. Clout chasers will come no matter what.
I have an 04 and an 02 and always looking for the next deal. Have my eyes on an 08. I also have a Isuzu with the 5.3 I got for $400, TB $1900 250k, Envoy $1850 180k
Great vid! More swappers mean more data, more experience and more demand for aftermarket suppliers to wake up and make even more parts. I bought the turbo for my own build and I'm waiting to pull the trigger on the Artec manifold.. It's really expensive but as your vid on it, it's just the best option.
In addition to tensile strength, elastic modulus also makes a difference. That's a technical term for stiffness. Two materials with the same UTS may support the same amount of load, but the one with the lower modulus will stretch or bend or twist farther under that same load. If the difference is enough to cause damage to the mating parts, then the stiffness is the important characteristic in that application rather than the strength.
You're confusing Young's modulus (also called modulus of elasticity, or E-modulus) with yield strength. Yield strength is where a material gives in and deforms permanently. UTS is when it eventually breaks. Especially for ductile materials the yield stress is significantly below the ultimate tensile strength.
@@Hydrazine1000 I've been a mechanical engineer for thirty years. I know the difference between yield and breaking. My point about Young's modulus is that deflection can result in damage to other parts in a system even if the main structural component is still within its elastic range.
@@kevinjokipii4260Ok, sorry, I did not read your post the way you meant it. You meant "stretch bend or twist" in the purely elastic domain while I assumed plastic. Call that "professional distortion" if you will, because I have an MSc in Materials Science & Engineering.
The biggest difference between iron and aluminum block strength is that due to the fatigue limit of aluminum. Aluminum is very strong, but longevity is the issue, especially the higher the forces placed on the block.
And it doesn't matter for blocks, because they don't experience stretching forces and a level that may cause a problem. That's why aluminum blocks are very common these days, but not rods.
Even if there are higher UTS alluminium alloys than some cast iron alloys, per a given geometry (lets say the wall between cylinders), cast iron is always stiffer. This means that for a given force it will deform less, hence has less chance of reducing clearance between moving parts (lets say crankshaft and block). Material and design always work hand in hand, and the stiffer the block, the more torque, cylinder pressure and RPM will safely support
Damn, I just looked on marketplace and I can get a 4200 and the tranny already out of the blazer in 15 minutes for $500, so I can probably get the motor alone for $300. You have my attention, sir. I have a tundra approaching 300k. Runs great, it is my daily. But I know they fail around 300k. To put a mild 4200 in a yota would be epic. Blazer parts, like ECUs and harnesses shouldn't be too expensive either. Bro, you got my adhd fired up.
Worked at a gmc dealer for 5 years. Only saw one failure due to lack of maintenence. 4200 was a good engine. 2.4 and 3.6 not so much. Great for my paycheck.
So, pretty much my entire channel is based on Gen 3 Hemi content, but I finally cannot resist and I'm picking up one of these engines on Friday 😄. No idea what it'll be for yet, but i can guarantee you it'll be turbocharged. Great work my man, appreciate your dedication to this platform. 👍
2JZ can never be replicated or replaced. With this day n age it still stands at the top but not for long as everything else is catching up so that shows how far ahead of time the design is
Fantastic sciency video!!!!!!!! One other major factor to consider above ultimate tensile strength is Modulus of Elasticity. As in, a long crankshaft will be happier living in a block with the same bending properties, not to mention similar thermal expansion of ferrous crank/block combo.
Valve seats wear out at around 250k at least on the early ones. 02-05ish You will realize it when your 4.2 sounds slightly different like a sewing machine. But I have gone almost 100k with my worn head. I’m at 320k it started sewing machine sound at 240k so they are definitely good engines.
Awesome comparison. This motivates me more to grab a decent donor at the yard and just give it a good once over and prep it for a future unknown project. Keep it up as always.
I didn't realize it was that under square! Should have known from the displacement but wow that's some stroke. The VR38 and Coyote have both pretty well proved out aluminium engines. Personally the VK56de from like 04-15 is my dream swap. Over square, about a 1.68 rod/stroke, semi-closed deck, and a skirted block with 4 bolts + T's. It's cam on bucket so can't fit as angry cams as a secondary system. They're the same buckets as a VR so, oil galleries willing, they should take just as much lift with some clearancing.
Some day I'm gonna get one of these built and it'll be thanks to your content. In the meantime, I get to geek out when you go down a rabbit hole. Great vid!
Hardness and tensile strength are not the only factors to consider, there's also the thermal properties of the block, regarding abilities to conduct heat from one cavity to the next and also expansion and warping under high heat.
Man respect I think any good straight 6 that is well built and has reliable traits for sure deserves to be looked in to and studied and brought back to life
I said this a while ago, the downfall to iron is it does not bend or flex, so once the material is over powered it cracks, where as aluminum flexs and expands and contracts. Which is why all the record breaking stock block LS cars are running sleeved aluminum blocks. The Honda kseries is a weaker aluminum block then the 4200 and their limit is around 1500 crank hp, thats 375hp a cylider, if you do the math for a 6 cylinder your talking about 2250 hp which is right in line with what the stock block limit is on a prime 2jz or barra.
@@Christdeliverme Sure and what happens when they do? They crack, RBs do it when since the AWD diff makes them flex more so then in a rwd application. My point proven.
It most definitely is a contributing factor When you use all design and engineering tools aspect and lessons to keep improving the product remembering the lessons from the past I only makes sit once to improve use newer materials incorporate better parts and have a lighter stronger more powerful and efficient product This is something I wanted to be involved in as a tradesman but only get to do maintenance Why so many companies often don’t change designs slightly to improve reliability services ability and efficiency etc always confounds me
I thought the only weak point might be a lower melting point on aluminum making it easier to warp (Northstar anybody) But apparently the gray iron melts up. 1212° and this particular aluminum alloy melts at 1220°
Hey Calvin, first off thank you for posting so much information on these motors. I have a video idea that I think would be helpful to me and others. Not sure how doable it is, but a video of how to reach different levels of horsepower 400, 450, 500.. ect and the list of mods and estimated cost breakdown? I stole the this format idea from shmeidia and what he does for the wrx sti. I’m currently in the process of looking through local junkyards to find a suitable 4200 and trans for my old g body. Thanks again.
Bruh VORTEC!!! My lil Chevy Blazer RIPs up the trails. Been telling people for over a decade. Slap a Vortec into anything and have a beast. My buddy swapped one into his drag 90's Mustang and his rock crawler 80's Nissan Patrol.
How many head bolts do they have...also there is a gap between cylinder sleeves and sleeve next to cylinder ..exp1 to 2 and 2 to 3 ..so on..that gap maked it way less ridged ..they will flex deforme ...called cymise bore..plus its sleaved....that only thing i see being a issue..
if size is an issue i would go with 2.9l Volvo straight six white block, found in S80s and XC90 from the early 2000s. Twin turbo from the factory and they can make about 600 horsepower on stock internals . You can find them everywhere because they are front wheel drive straight six that cae with a garbage GM 4 speed (the only thing that would fit)
I've been following your journey with these engines for a good while now and I think that you are spot on. These engines have massive potential. Any chance of you sending one over to the UK for me to start playing with? 😉
I heard that iron gets harder as it ages especially if baked in an oven a few times. Something to do with the crystalline structure improving the bonds between crystals For aluminum to be at maximum hardness and strength a part needs to be grown from a single crystal. The fan blades in a jet are each all one crystal .
You have all most convinced me on one of these engines, you may have said it before but what is the best year to get for minimal upgrades and it will be a turbo engine as I am definitely a turbo type of guy, thanks for the information you put out not only on this engine but all the stuff you do on your Channel
The alloy might permanently deform sooner....While not being an ultimate failure/crack. The modulas of elasticity would correspond to stiffness up to plastic deformation if I recall correctly.
Nice work. what about the coefficient of thermal expansion? The more the material works, the weaker it becomes over time. This is where aluminum has a decisive disadvantage compared to cast iron.
The part about the tensile strength tests is particularly interesting as a mech engineering student. This is exactly one of the things I've been learning at college right now. About aftermarket support, someone has to go first, right? We need to create alternatives.
The issue with aluminum is what is called the Fatigue Limit, for iron alloy materials as long as you stay under 30ksi it will never fatigue crack and fail aluminum on the other hand has no fatigue limit which means it will over time fail regardless of how stressed it is through its cycle life. In engine blocks this mostly manifests in failed threads as they are effectively stressed over and over as the engine runs, you will see crank and head bolts lose tension as the threads fatigue and deform. I am not a materials scientist, but I am a mechanical engineer with two decades of experience in aluminum and steel manufacturing in addition to being an automotive enthusiast. The best way to fix the issues with aluminum is to use threaded inserts, I would recommend them to be tool steel, or some extremely gall resistant alloy like Nitronic 60. I have rebuilt almost two dozen GM "LS" truck engines, I have yet to find an iron block that has failed in any way, but I have found several aluminum blocks with cracked decks and fatigued head or crank bolt studs.
Being that the toyota JZ is getting scarce, the Atlas6 could be a good alternative. Mazda I6 turbo could be another alternative, maybe the Stellantis Hurricane I6 turbo, but they haven't worked out its bugs out yet. BMW has offerings, but they're expensive. Ford Barra is getting pricey too.
Top fuel blocks are aluminum and make 12,000 HP from 500 CI. There are some very tough aluminum alloys and very tough cast iron too (ADI grade 5 runs into the 245ksi range, is ductile - but doesn't like heat). At the far end of the spectrum, FIA has a fat section in their rule books which restrict which materials teams can use to make stressed parts as there are all kinds of beyond NASA metals out there, if you got the dough.
IDK, looking at modern cars, the Trailblazer was pretty easy to work on. There were a few things in the way but not too bad. I had to do the thermostat, alternator, cam phaser, and I cheated fixing the valve cover leak around the spark plugs. Then wheel hubs and suspension/steering. The worst of all of those, was the thermostat.
I'm considering selling my 1UZ and just keeping my SBC, but seeing all the barriers that kept my interest at bay aren't there, it now makes me want a 4200. It may be a while before I can afford a project to put it in, but I definitely do think this is the new 2JZ
Eh I like it, I'd prefer the aluminum block for the weight don't get me wrong, but I don't like roller rockers unless I'm going back to pushrod tech in an extraordinarily cheap engine. Mainly because it's a weak point, I've seen those go bad in 80k and need replacement in a lot of applications. Yeah I don't mind it in race application or a classic car I don't drive often, but I'd rather have a 2JZ just for the cam on bucket that can just set and forget for 300k+, go out of adjustment by a lot and still function fine for another 300k. Also, the shims are easy to adjust so long as you stick with the factory bucket over shim design, they make a tool for it thats pretty nifty so long as you don't intend on going high rpms past factory spec. I personally like the 1uz because I like the low end power over the jz's, and v8's sound better, plus there are plenty of options for valvetrain in these, different port designs, heads that interchange, different cranks, bucket over shim in some engines, and solid bucket over shim design in the vvti's, etc, ntm aluminum block so they're lighter than the jz's.
Why didn’t they add cam phasing to both the intake and exhaust cams? Other engines at the time of the vortec 4200 already had both cams and make similar power with less displacement.
Also flat tappet buckets don't allow some aggressive cam profiles you can get from roller followers. Some manufacturers have made curved top valve buckets that allow more aggressive cam profiles but the 2jz hasn't done that yet everything available is flat top buckets.
Great information as always Calvin. I've always wondered about a 4200 in a Colorado/Canyon. Now I have my answer... sort of. Looks like it would be best to buy a "donor" SUV and work from there for the wiring, etc. It always bugged me that GM never put one in the pickup trucks. The 2800 and 3500 - although similar, just never excited me.
The wifes 2008 TB LT has 227,000 miles on it and the only engine part(other than spark plugs) I have replaced is the VVT solenoid which is external and relatively easy to replace. The only other non sacrificial part I've replaced on the car is the fuel tank vapor emissions unit(wrong name probably) which is just in front of the rear end and easy to replace. I'm presently looking for a new vehicle for the wife but if I don't get her something with 290 HP, she is not going to be happy.
I wish i could have got 1 of these motors for my 250ci Elco 6 that i struggled to get to perform but never had the funds for a v8 swap...... Would have loved my 3 on the tree, 76 Elco to have this motor with a floor shift 5/6 speed stick shift.......wouldve been rad back in the day 😂
I'd like to point out how much more aluminum grows when it's hot, and how much allowance is (or isn't) made for it at the OEM level vs aftermarket. With nothing but my gut to go on, I'd call that out as the difference in why iron holds more power than aluminum typically does.
I love your enthusiasm and devotion and it's nice to see something different being done but the new 2JZ? You have been using that line since I started following along. I think a better case can be made for the n54/b58 as the spiritual successor. An even better idea leave the 2JZ as it is and just talk about the others in their own right.
You should do a buyers guide for someone looking to pick one of these engines up. Is it best to start with a donor vehicle, or is the bare engine enough? If I get an engine should I grab a wiring harness and computer also? What ever you think is most important for someone looking to get started playing with one of these engines.
Contributing factor in the engine not taking off is not the lack of aftermarket support. Its that there is not enough aftermarket support. One company makes rods. One makes a manifold. No cams without having to regrind. No one wants to modify parts from another car or make there own or pay a godly amount for a turbo manifold. If more companies supported it and pricing was more competitive then yeah it would be a hit
The only way to get the price down is to increase volume. It's supply and demand. I'm just trying to increase demand because they're great engines and more people should give them a shot.
Even though the Vortec 4200 is all aluminum, it weighs more than an aluminum LS, Coyote, B58/S58 as well as the iron block 1JZ & 2JZ. It's also dimensionally larger than the 1J/2J & B58/S28, not to mention quite a bit longer than the LS & Coyote (although narrower). It's also really cheap and easy to get your hands on an LS, Coyote, & B58/S58, all will make more power out of the box, the Coyote has a redline of 7,500rpm from the factory, the aftermarket has proven they will happily rev to 8k on the stock valvetrain, not to mention they are happy to be boosted to ~1,000 horsepower before structural integrity has to be addressed. The B58/S58 are happy to rev, have a ton of aftermarket support & are stout engines that can handle a lot of power as well, and the LS is, well, the LS. I mean, I guess if you insist on an I6 you could make a case, but the B58/S58 are a thing, and their development is ongoing rather than ending nearly 20 years ago, and they are far more plentiful than the Vortec 4200, and are still in production. At that point, you may as well ship a Barra from Australia.
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I’m amazed nobody’s caught on to the 5cyl version of the same engine yet, as tuned 5cyls sound AWESOME!
4cylinder 2.9/2900 version is going into my Opel with a turbo and 4 neutral 4L60 lol
@@young11984 that will be very cool, good luck with it!
See 80's Audi Quattro
I imagined putting one in a C4 Corvette with a turbo and that idea just keep bouncing around my brain. I think it'd be a perfect vibe match
@@bobroberts2371
The Daza engine in my 2018 RS3 sounds sweet!
As a Materials Scientist & Engineer / metallurgist, I enjoyed this hands-on practical _let's test!_ approach. I do have a few pointers though.
Hardness is linked to ultimate tensile strength, or UTS. That's one of the key mechanical properties of any material, but it's not conclusive. Unless a material is fully brittle, the point where a material breaks is not the point where it starts to give. If a material has any ductility, it will yield before it breaks.
Your hardness testing were useful, but not the full story. If you perform a tensile test, the first part is fully elastic. If you release the tension, the test piece will return to its original length. If you apply load to yield strength it will start to permanently deform. The "0.2% yield strength" is the ksi value (or MPa for metric folks) where, upon release, the test piece will permanently be 0.2% longer than before the test. Depending on how brittle or ductile a material is, the breaking strength (UTS) will be a bit, or actually quite a lot, higher.
So while the 4200 block may appear to have a similar UTS value as the 2JZ block you tested, it doesn't tell you at what stress level a block will yield/permanently deform. It also doesn't give you another important tensile property, the A(%) value, which is elongation-until-break. Ductile cast iron will have a lower value for A(%) than cast aluminium. But hardness doesn't tell you if a material will bend/stretch/twist before it breaks, or if it shatters immediately.
One more thing on your hardness tester: What you have is called a Leeb hardness tester. It infers hardness by measuring how a steel ball bounces of a surface. The angle at which you test, horizontal, vertical upwards or vertical downwards, _affects its readings!_ A high grade integrated tester may have an inclinometer build in, so it can correct for the direction in which the little ball is fired, but otherwise you have to make sure that you use the correct orientation, which typically is upright with the ball firing straight down. Also, since the device looks at bounce back, if you test on a very thin section, you will get a different reading compared to testing on a section with more mass behind it.
They have been making HUGE power with this motor in Australia for years.
All that complex nonsense you wrote means nothing.
2JZ at some point moves to a billet block. Thats everything when your talking about living at thousands of HP.
@jeremywhittler8591 you missed the point. I know what those engines are capable of.
This was only about what a hardness test can and can't tell you with regard to mechanical properties.
@@jeremywhittler8591 You could be a bit more polite than calling someone else's efforts "nonsense"
They were providing some more insight on how the testing could've been improved since the youtuber is unfamiliar and unexperienced with the hardness tester. Nowhere did @hydrazine1000 comment on the capability of the 4.2vortec.
@@jeremywhittler8591 As far as I can tell the original point being made didn't have much to do with the engine quality so much as providing insight on testing procedures and how to get more out of testing. The individual didn't mention anything directly related to the vortec motors quality, so I'm unsure why you responded the way you did
You sound like you know your shit. I also enjoyed the Mythbusting approach of let's experiment and measure and see what's what. Your insight on how to get more objective data is invaluable. People are asking good money for this kind of advice.
My company has acquired a cylinder head and has been researching it. So far, despite the laughably small exhaust ports, the flow bench results have been promising and I am confident that we will be moving forward with development.
I've always said that power was all in your head. Yes - double meaning. ;)
Look at how much power a GSXR (for example) makes with a small displacement. Awesome head design!
When you're done developing....send the head to us...we'll get drag results
"Less" aftermarket support might be a better term.... BUT....
The 2JZ didn't come out of the womb with massive aftermarket support either. Give it time.
@@DrFiero fact. People forget JZ tuning didn’t take off for a pretty long time, way after RB26s. Most modified Supras used to be mostly cosmetic, often still on stock twins just with a boost upgrade etc.
It’s only in the last fifteen or so years tuning really went wild with them
Same as the Barra, 15 years later it was easy to get power.
Same goes for the RB as the Aussie aftermarket is mental for the RB now.
@@StavTech lolwut? The 2JZ was already a tuning legend in the USA when the first F&F movie came out in 2001.
Brendo: not in the way it is now, not by a long shot. And even then that’s eleven years after the 2J first came out.
Even in the early 2000s swapping JZs for RBs was a fairly normal thing in Japan as the RB so was much more supported. Nobody would do that now. I even owned a RB swapped JZ car
One of GM's biggest blunder was not utilizing this engine platform more, could've used it in the trucks and vans as the base engine, made a "small block" 3.2L version for use in like camaro's G8 etc... even factory turbo'd the engine
@@lieutenantdan8170 I think a crank with a touch less stroke would have better high rpm power capabilities. (Less harmonic vibrations. ) I'm already surprised they survive at the rpm's Calvin runs
That's certainly not one of their greatest blunders.
I think a 3.6L atlas turbo would've been awesome for the Sigma ll V series cars, but they went with the LSA instead. Also, they could've shipped the Atlas to Australia to let them further develop the engine as a competitor to the Barra. That timeframe is when the rescission hit and GM was in shambles though. I wonder if they still have the tooling for the 4200 somewhere. I wish some automotive companies acknowledged some unfinished work in their legacy engines such as the Atlas and released all performance goodies and flywheels to connect them to later GM transmissions
@@pi55bieralso we had the already developed Buick v6 and an engine bay designed for short v6 and v8 engines, the straight six is LONG, and GM Holden cast the Buick v6 then the alloytech 2.8, 3.0, 3.2 and 3.6 v6 was assembled in Australia and sent around the world too. Straight sixes are not efficient for GM.
Said the same in 80s with the r code olds 350 would been an awesome truck v8
Vortec4200 fan from Finland here! Been watching your videos long time and motivated from those I pulled the trigger. Got myself a 4200 for 200€. Flanges for oilpan,intake,manifold and transmission are on their way. Im going to swap my E61 m54B25 with this 4200. Going to run with big turbo, Maxxecu and 8hp gearbox. In Finland I think there is no other 4200 build as the building of these engines has not arrived here. Thanks for the 4200wiki page. It is really helpfull!!
Woah! My e60 might need an upgrade! Let me know how that goes, good luck!
Where didi you find it ? I have seen none here in France ...
@@dot3xe local junkyard
@@Kingkurkela from wich car ? Do you know any model with high availability in europe ?
There are better European options, theres no need to import old USA engines. (Unless local scrapyard has a decent core, which is really rare.)
Ontop of that, taxes and tariffs for USA made engines and parts kill every viability of the engines.
Use this engine, take these parts are mainly for those who cant make power from any engine, and only succeed on following someone elses project or recommendations.
You can get power out of anything, just throw a different cam and forged pistons, injectors in it, boost it and tune - it'll make power.
please don't post this publicly. if you enjoy a budget build, don't tempt the clout chasers
These engines will become expensive soon whether we like it or not. They will be expensive because of supply or demand. I'd rather have it because of demand while there is still plenty of supply.
Clout chasers will come no matter what.
I’m at 189k miles and my trailblazer still pulls very hard and i still smoke people all the time 😂
I can just feel the hoarders cleaning them of of the junkyards and driving up the prices
Next thing ya know they’ll be in ever build at SEMA lol
if you need 4200 let me know I can get it for you and good price. Im located Levittown p.a @Calvin-Nelson
I have an 04 and an 02 and always looking for the next deal. Have my eyes on an 08. I also have a Isuzu with the 5.3 I got for $400, TB $1900 250k, Envoy $1850 180k
The modern day 2J is the K24A2.
Forged internals and then have fun.
Thanks for the rep' Calvin 😊. Haters will always hate, just like all the SBC guys hated on the LS when it came out in 1997 😂
Great vid! More swappers mean more data, more experience and more demand for aftermarket suppliers to wake up and make even more parts. I bought the turbo for my own build and I'm waiting to pull the trigger on the Artec manifold.. It's really expensive but as your vid on it, it's just the best option.
We have a few on our website and they're on sale. Hopefully that makes it a bit easier. www.paccracing.com/store/artec-vortec-4200-turbo-manifolds
I’m thankful Calvin is brining us much needed research on the 4200
Yep the 4200 will never be the next 2JZ, simply Facts!
In addition to tensile strength, elastic modulus also makes a difference. That's a technical term for stiffness. Two materials with the same UTS may support the same amount of load, but the one with the lower modulus will stretch or bend or twist farther under that same load. If the difference is enough to cause damage to the mating parts, then the stiffness is the important characteristic in that application rather than the strength.
Thank you! I found myself shouting at the tv, because my hands were full, when he was talking about strength.
You're confusing Young's modulus (also called modulus of elasticity, or E-modulus) with yield strength.
Yield strength is where a material gives in and deforms permanently. UTS is when it eventually breaks. Especially for ductile materials the yield stress is significantly below the ultimate tensile strength.
@@Hydrazine1000 I've been a mechanical engineer for thirty years. I know the difference between yield and breaking. My point about Young's modulus is that deflection can result in damage to other parts in a system even if the main structural component is still within its elastic range.
@@kevinjokipii4260Ok, sorry, I did not read your post the way you meant it. You meant "stretch bend or twist" in the purely elastic domain while I assumed plastic.
Call that "professional distortion" if you will, because I have an MSc in Materials Science & Engineering.
appreciate this video, i asked if you could do a 2jz vs 4200 video and you came through, hell yeah
This engine didn't get on Ward's 10 Best Engines four years in a row for no reason. It's the most underrated engine GM has ever made.
The biggest difference between iron and aluminum block strength is that due to the fatigue limit of aluminum. Aluminum is very strong, but longevity is the issue, especially the higher the forces placed on the block.
And it doesn't matter for blocks, because they don't experience stretching forces and a level that may cause a problem. That's why aluminum blocks are very common these days, but not rods.
Thank you Calvin for sharing this information. And wishing you and family a Blessed Thanksgiving
Even if there are higher UTS alluminium alloys than some cast iron alloys, per a given geometry (lets say the wall between cylinders), cast iron is always stiffer.
This means that for a given force it will deform less, hence has less chance of reducing clearance between moving parts (lets say crankshaft and block).
Material and design always work hand in hand, and the stiffer the block, the more torque, cylinder pressure and RPM will safely support
I appriciate this kinds of vids it give me new perspectives in enginge builds .
Brother, that is awesome!!! The 4200 is going to go a long way!!!
A ton of my family and friends worked at GM truck and bus building Blazers and TrailBlazers. The alcoholism and drug abuse there was off the charts!
That's probably true all over the planet.
@@Calvin-Nelson Wisdom good answer
Damn, I just looked on marketplace and I can get a 4200 and the tranny already out of the blazer in 15 minutes for $500, so I can probably get the motor alone for $300.
You have my attention, sir.
I have a tundra approaching 300k. Runs great, it is my daily. But I know they fail around 300k. To put a mild 4200 in a yota would be epic.
Blazer parts, like ECUs and harnesses shouldn't be too expensive either.
Bro, you got my adhd fired up.
Worked at a gmc dealer for 5 years. Only saw one failure due to lack of maintenence. 4200 was a good engine. 2.4 and 3.6 not so much. Great for my paycheck.
"Or Wednesday, when they're finally over their hangover"
Solid comedy gold right there!
So, pretty much my entire channel is based on Gen 3 Hemi content, but I finally cannot resist and I'm picking up one of these engines on Friday 😄. No idea what it'll be for yet, but i can guarantee you it'll be turbocharged. Great work my man, appreciate your dedication to this platform. 👍
2JZ can never be replicated or replaced. With this day n age it still stands at the top but not for long as everything else is catching up so that shows how far ahead of time the design is
Fantastic sciency video!!!!!!!!
One other major factor to consider above ultimate tensile strength is Modulus of Elasticity. As in, a long crankshaft will be happier living in a block with the same bending properties, not to mention similar thermal expansion of ferrous crank/block combo.
Valve seats wear out at around 250k at least on the early ones. 02-05ish You will realize it when your 4.2 sounds slightly different like a sewing machine. But I have gone almost 100k with my worn head. I’m at 320k it started sewing machine sound at 240k so they are definitely good engines.
Awesome comparison. This motivates me more to grab a decent donor at the yard and just give it a good once over and prep it for a future unknown project. Keep it up as always.
I didn't realize it was that under square! Should have known from the displacement but wow that's some stroke. The VR38 and Coyote have both pretty well proved out aluminium engines. Personally the VK56de from like 04-15 is my dream swap. Over square, about a 1.68 rod/stroke, semi-closed deck, and a skirted block with 4 bolts + T's. It's cam on bucket so can't fit as angry cams as a secondary system. They're the same buckets as a VR so, oil galleries willing, they should take just as much lift with some clearancing.
Always learn something new in your videos. This one was really good
Some day I'm gonna get one of these built and it'll be thanks to your content. In the meantime, I get to geek out when you go down a rabbit hole. Great vid!
Hardness and tensile strength are not the only factors to consider, there's also the thermal properties of the block, regarding abilities to conduct heat from one cavity to the next and also expansion and warping under high heat.
Could you test and see how much hp, psi of boost and rpm they can do before grenading?
ruclips.net/video/ZPjT17_BGgY/видео.htmlsi=eR0NzSQOLlql1gEY
Already done. Also ran one with rods only.
I love all the info you share about these motors
Solid video. Well reasoned. Sounds like this platform could be a lot of fun.
Man respect I think any good straight 6 that is well built and has reliable traits for sure deserves to be looked in to and studied and brought back to life
I think heat also plays a factor in strength comparison between aluminum and cast iron.
Great video instant subscribe glad to find another grass roots automotive channel
Man i am so happy you guys are letting people know, how great these engines are.
Love this platform. Thanks, Calvin!
Dynamic torsional strength is a thing. But you made a very concise and thought provoking and clever vid really loved it..
Thanks for valuable information bro, but the question is what is the best mods to make the best performance N/A engine?
Please advise 🙏
SPOT ON AND HOPE TO SEE IT CONTINUE TO GROW IVE LOOKED AT USING ONE IN A BUILD BUT AT THE TIME THE COST WAS PROHIBITIVE
The 70's Olds 403's had those same main web windows, and were known to be weak due to that. Great info in this video.
I said this a while ago, the downfall to iron is it does not bend or flex, so once the material is over powered it cracks, where as aluminum flexs and expands and contracts. Which is why all the record breaking stock block LS cars are running sleeved aluminum blocks. The Honda kseries is a weaker aluminum block then the 4200 and their limit is around 1500 crank hp, thats 375hp a cylider, if you do the math for a 6 cylinder your talking about 2250 hp which is right in line with what the stock block limit is on a prime 2jz or barra.
You think like I do. You may or may not be right. However the facts support the hypothesis. Good post.
It does bend and flex it's quite ductile
@thewraith6360 k motors rod knock even with upgraded rods...like 90% of time. That must be that block flex that yall say is good right
@@Christdeliverme Sure and what happens when they do? They crack, RBs do it when since the AWD diff makes them flex more so then in a rwd application. My point proven.
@@bryansenulis7242 No one says its good.
It most definitely is a contributing factor
When you use all design and engineering tools aspect and lessons to keep improving the product remembering the lessons from the past I only makes sit once to improve use newer materials incorporate better parts and have a lighter stronger more powerful and efficient product
This is something I wanted to be involved in as a tradesman but only get to do maintenance
Why so many companies often don’t change designs slightly to improve reliability services ability and efficiency etc always confounds me
I thought the only weak point might be a lower melting point on aluminum making it easier to warp (Northstar anybody) But apparently the gray iron melts up. 1212° and this particular aluminum alloy melts at 1220°
Hey Calvin, first off thank you for posting so much information on these motors. I have a video idea that I think would be helpful to me and others. Not sure how doable it is, but a video of how to reach different levels of horsepower 400, 450, 500.. ect and the list of mods and estimated cost breakdown?
I stole the this format idea from shmeidia and what he does for the wrx sti.
I’m currently in the process of looking through local junkyards to find a suitable 4200 and trans for my old g body.
Thanks again.
I actually already did that. Just isn't a video.
sites.google.com/view/vortec4200wiki/power-matrix?authuser=0
@@Calvin-Nelson you’re the man.
Thank you, hope everything is going well.
Bruh VORTEC!!! My lil Chevy Blazer RIPs up the trails. Been telling people for over a decade. Slap a Vortec into anything and have a beast. My buddy swapped one into his drag 90's Mustang and his rock crawler 80's Nissan Patrol.
Always love your videos!
Great info!
How many head bolts do they have...also there is a gap between cylinder sleeves and sleeve next to cylinder
..exp1 to 2 and 2 to 3 ..so on..that gap maked it way less ridged
..they will flex deforme ...called cymise bore..plus its sleaved....that only thing i see being a issue..
Would love to do a Vortec 4200 swap in 4.0 Jeeps. An inexpensive rear sump oil pan (stamped steel) would be great!
I agree and love your content bro! Can't wait for an update on the Caddy Coyote! 💪🤠
Well I have one already on a Trailblazer. I do want to add a bit more power nothing too crazy. Can't wait to start looking into it
What you don't see in this video is Nivlac's massive collection of Vortec 4200's he's waiting to list on eBay
We're in the buying mode. We have a bunch of plans for future projects.
i subbed just for the classical music in the background in like 3 mins lol
what about the physical dimensions? does that make these 4200s less of an option for a lot of cars if you want to keep a stock firewall?
if size is an issue i would go with 2.9l Volvo straight six white block, found in S80s and XC90 from the early 2000s.
Twin turbo from the factory and they can make about 600 horsepower on stock internals . You can find them everywhere because they are front wheel drive straight six that cae with a garbage GM 4 speed (the only thing that would fit)
I tink the volvo penta engines could be an option also
Always great content, keep up the great work, love the father son vibe going on👍
I've been following your journey with these engines for a good while now and I think that you are spot on.
These engines have massive potential.
Any chance of you sending one over to the UK for me to start playing with? 😉
I really enjoy your delivery of this tech info. Thanks. 👍💪
I heard that iron gets harder as it ages especially if baked in an oven a few times.
Something to do with the crystalline structure improving the bonds between crystals
For aluminum to be at maximum hardness and strength a part needs to be grown from a single crystal. The fan blades in a jet are each all one crystal .
You have all most convinced me on one of these engines, you may have said it before but what is the best year to get for minimal upgrades and it will be a turbo engine as I am definitely a turbo type of guy, thanks for the information you put out not only on this engine but all the stuff you do on your Channel
Couldn't recommend this engine enough especially for wheeling.
The alloy might permanently deform sooner....While not being an ultimate failure/crack. The modulas of elasticity would correspond to stiffness up to plastic deformation if I recall correctly.
Calvin is wearing his uniform... greasy thermal undershirt...check, bed head...check 👍
Great video!
Love your channel!
13:01 before testing pops head😂, red top Northstar lurking in the background
Nice work. what about the coefficient of thermal expansion? The more the material works, the weaker it becomes over time. This is where aluminum has a decisive disadvantage compared to cast iron.
The part about the tensile strength tests is particularly interesting as a mech engineering student. This is exactly one of the things I've been learning at college right now.
About aftermarket support, someone has to go first, right? We need to create alternatives.
The issue with aluminum is what is called the Fatigue Limit, for iron alloy materials as long as you stay under 30ksi it will never fatigue crack and fail aluminum on the other hand has no fatigue limit which means it will over time fail regardless of how stressed it is through its cycle life. In engine blocks this mostly manifests in failed threads as they are effectively stressed over and over as the engine runs, you will see crank and head bolts lose tension as the threads fatigue and deform. I am not a materials scientist, but I am a mechanical engineer with two decades of experience in aluminum and steel manufacturing in addition to being an automotive enthusiast. The best way to fix the issues with aluminum is to use threaded inserts, I would recommend them to be tool steel, or some extremely gall resistant alloy like Nitronic 60.
I have rebuilt almost two dozen GM "LS" truck engines, I have yet to find an iron block that has failed in any way, but I have found several aluminum blocks with cracked decks and fatigued head or crank bolt studs.
Where in the deck would you find cracks? Are these visible or do you need to magnaflux to find them?
If the deck is cracked you’re probably gonna be able to see that.
@j.williams4030 idk, I just repaired a crack in my exhaust manifold that I could only find with soapy water. Couldn't see it. But it was there.
Being that the toyota JZ is getting scarce, the Atlas6 could be a good alternative. Mazda I6 turbo could be another alternative, maybe the Stellantis Hurricane I6 turbo, but they haven't worked out its bugs out yet. BMW has offerings, but they're expensive. Ford Barra is getting pricey too.
They have sent so many to America so yes.
2 questions? Could you get an 05 block and put the 06 head on it? Also, who and what is being used to tune these?
Yes. I like Maxxecu, but you can use a variety of ECUs.
Top fuel blocks are aluminum and make 12,000 HP from 500 CI. There are some very tough aluminum alloys and very tough cast iron too (ADI grade 5 runs into the 245ksi range, is ductile - but doesn't like heat). At the far end of the spectrum, FIA has a fat section in their rule books which restrict which materials teams can use to make stressed parts as there are all kinds of beyond NASA metals out there, if you got the dough.
IDK, looking at modern cars, the Trailblazer was pretty easy to work on. There were a few things in the way but not too bad. I had to do the thermostat, alternator, cam phaser, and I cheated fixing the valve cover leak around the spark plugs.
Then wheel hubs and suspension/steering. The worst of all of those, was the thermostat.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family!
Happy Thanksgiving!!
I'm considering selling my 1UZ and just keeping my SBC, but seeing all the barriers that kept my interest at bay aren't there, it now makes me want a 4200. It may be a while before I can afford a project to put it in, but I definitely do think this is the new 2JZ
Love these kinds of videos.
Eh I like it, I'd prefer the aluminum block for the weight don't get me wrong, but I don't like roller rockers unless I'm going back to pushrod tech in an extraordinarily cheap engine. Mainly because it's a weak point, I've seen those go bad in 80k and need replacement in a lot of applications. Yeah I don't mind it in race application or a classic car I don't drive often, but I'd rather have a 2JZ just for the cam on bucket that can just set and forget for 300k+, go out of adjustment by a lot and still function fine for another 300k. Also, the shims are easy to adjust so long as you stick with the factory bucket over shim design, they make a tool for it thats pretty nifty so long as you don't intend on going high rpms past factory spec. I personally like the 1uz because I like the low end power over the jz's, and v8's sound better, plus there are plenty of options for valvetrain in these, different port designs, heads that interchange, different cranks, bucket over shim in some engines, and solid bucket over shim design in the vvti's, etc, ntm aluminum block so they're lighter than the jz's.
Why didn’t they add cam phasing to both the intake and exhaust cams? Other engines at the time of the vortec 4200 already had both cams and make similar power with less displacement.
I'll call GM on Monday and find out what they were thinking 25 years ago LOL. We wish they had it on both cams
Also , that steel/iron liner on that aluminum LS is the reason it works at all. And, strength doesn't equal toughness/hardness doesn't equal strength.
What manual transmission would you use/recommend?
As for the jz strength varying, i think its likely due to being a poured cast vs vacuum cast like the gm.
Also flat tappet buckets don't allow some aggressive cam profiles you can get from roller followers. Some manufacturers have made curved top valve buckets that allow more aggressive cam profiles but the 2jz hasn't done that yet everything available is flat top buckets.
It hasn't limited them though?
i was literally just thinking about what this engine could take and then i see this, surprised nobody has tried much with them
ruclips.net/video/nHAlz4y6DYY/видео.htmlsi=xIWdsuCjRMoWnm8X
13:21 Just realized what Nivlac means 😅
Great information as always Calvin.
I've always wondered about a 4200 in a Colorado/Canyon. Now I have my answer... sort of. Looks like it would be best to buy a "donor" SUV and work from there for the wiring, etc. It always bugged me that GM never put one in the pickup trucks. The 2800 and 3500 - although similar, just never excited me.
D4A is an *awesome* YT channel!!!!
Yeah. He's got some great vids.
Agree psi of materials is similar, but is the wall thickness 2x?
The wifes 2008 TB LT has 227,000 miles on it and the only engine part(other than spark plugs) I have replaced is the VVT solenoid which is external and relatively easy to replace.
The only other non sacrificial part I've replaced on the car is the fuel tank vapor emissions unit(wrong name probably) which is just in front of the rear end and easy to replace.
I'm presently looking for a new vehicle for the wife but if I don't get her something with 290 HP, she is not going to be happy.
Tensile Strength =/= Hardness, but both are important factors when choosing a material for your engine blocks
Us 4.2 TB owners need someone to produce a true bolt on turbo kit.
I wish i could have got 1 of these motors for my 250ci Elco 6 that i struggled to get to perform but never had the funds for a v8 swap......
Would have loved my 3 on the tree, 76 Elco to have this motor with a floor shift 5/6 speed stick shift.......wouldve been rad back in the day 😂
I'd like to point out how much more aluminum grows when it's hot, and how much allowance is (or isn't) made for it at the OEM level vs aftermarket. With nothing but my gut to go on, I'd call that out as the difference in why iron holds more power than aluminum typically does.
I would put one in an S chassis if they made a swap kit for S 13
I love your enthusiasm and devotion and it's nice to see something different being done but the new 2JZ? You have been using that line since I started following along. I think a better case can be made for the n54/b58 as the spiritual successor. An even better idea leave the 2JZ as it is and just talk about the others in their own right.
Let's talk about transmissions that can be bolted to it. It comes with 4 speed dead horse.
You should do a buyers guide for someone looking to pick one of these engines up. Is it best to start with a donor vehicle, or is the bare engine enough? If I get an engine should I grab a wiring harness and computer also? What ever you think is most important for someone looking to get started playing with one of these engines.
Contributing factor in the engine not taking off is not the lack of aftermarket support. Its that there is not enough aftermarket support. One company makes rods. One makes a manifold. No cams without having to regrind. No one wants to modify parts from another car or make there own or pay a godly amount for a turbo manifold. If more companies supported it and pricing was more competitive then yeah it would be a hit
The only way to get the price down is to increase volume. It's supply and demand. I'm just trying to increase demand because they're great engines and more people should give them a shot.
You would make a great shop teacher.
Even though the Vortec 4200 is all aluminum, it weighs more than an aluminum LS, Coyote, B58/S58 as well as the iron block 1JZ & 2JZ. It's also dimensionally larger than the 1J/2J & B58/S28, not to mention quite a bit longer than the LS & Coyote (although narrower).
It's also really cheap and easy to get your hands on an LS, Coyote, & B58/S58, all will make more power out of the box, the Coyote has a redline of 7,500rpm from the factory, the aftermarket has proven they will happily rev to 8k on the stock valvetrain, not to mention they are happy to be boosted to ~1,000 horsepower before structural integrity has to be addressed. The B58/S58 are happy to rev, have a ton of aftermarket support & are stout engines that can handle a lot of power as well, and the LS is, well, the LS.
I mean, I guess if you insist on an I6 you could make a case, but the B58/S58 are a thing, and their development is ongoing rather than ending nearly 20 years ago, and they are far more plentiful than the Vortec 4200, and are still in production.
At that point, you may as well ship a Barra from Australia.
who told you these lies? lol at it "weighing more than a 1j/2j engines lol. And it most likely weighs the same as a ls and coyote
Excellent video! Giving off some Superfastmatt vibes 👍
He's so inspiring. I wish I made as good of videos as he did.